The Generation Why Podcast

The Generation Why Podcast released its first episode in 2012 and pioneered the true crime genre in the podcasting world. Two friends, Aaron & Justin, break down theories and give their opinions on unsolved murders, controversies, mysteries and conspiracies.

All episodes are available for free, with ad-free episodes available for Wondery+ subscribers.

Skinwalker Ranch - 492

October 30, 2022



Uintah Basin, Utah. Skinwalker Ranch is said to be a most mysterious place. Sightings of humanoid creatures, unidentified flying objects, and other paranormal activity, has fueled speculation about what could be the source for these claims. Was a curse behind these sightings? Join Justin and Aaron as they discuss a mysterious area in Utah that has spawned many books and shows.

Get bonus content from Generation Why at:

Listen ad free with Wondery+. Join Wondery+ for exclusives, binges, early access, and ad free listening. Available in the Wondery App.

See Privacy Policy at and California Privacy Notice at


How are you doing tonight, Aaron?

Well, I hope I'm doing good, Justin.


I just put out a two-parter on the peripheral.

It's not all me.

It's a bunch of podcasts got together and Shane from Foul Play organized, I think it's like 31 stories and they're all from paranormal to scary murderers all for Halloween.

So check that out if you like it.

Check out some of the podcasts that contributed to.

But this is our, essentially our Halloween episode chosen by you.


I was trying to find somewhat of one of our throwbacks when we used to cover mysterious things, paranormal things, UFOs, that type of stuff.

I mean, we've covered Bigfoot, Loch Ness, even Mothman.

So I thought, let's take a break from murder in Mayhem.

You and your murder in Mayhem.

Let's do something a little bit more lighthearted, I guess.

Is it though?


It's definitely something that's off the beaten track for us and we'll just see how it goes.

There's a lot of interesting information about this area and there are a lot of stories.

And sometimes reading up on this or watching things on it, I got the feeling that they all started to sound similar, but some of these stories are just outright bizarre.

And this is a story that I remember as a kid hearing about it and being intrigued by it.

This is a story that has been rehashed and re-put out there over and over again.

And it's almost the Bermuda Triangle of the mountainous region of Utah.

I don't have a lot of time to sit down and read a book.

I'm always on the go going from one festival or meet up to another.

And Audible offers me an incredible selection of audiobooks across every genre.

Although I think I stick to mainly the thrillers and true crime section.

As an Audible member, I can choose one title a month, including the bestsellers and new releases.

All Audible members get access to a growing selection of audiobooks, audio originals, and podcasts that are included with your membership.

You can listen all you want and more gets added every month.

Gillian Flynn is going to be putting out a new book soon.

With all the news about Sherry Papini, you might want to go back and give Gone Girl a listen.

Let Audible help you discover new ways to laugh, be inspired, or be entertained.

New members can try it for free for 30 days.

Visit slash GWP or text GWP to 500-500.

That's slash GWP or text GWP to 500-500 to try Audible free for 30 days.

One more time, slash GWP.

FX's AHS NYC is the next installment of the award-winning anthology series American Horror Story, created by Ryan Murphy and Brad Falchuk.

With two all-new episodes airing each week, it promises to be a season like no other.

AHS NYC stars returning favorites like Zachary Quinto and Billy Lord, along with some fresh faces including Russell Tovey and Charlie Carver.

Something evil is coming.

FX's AHS NYC is all new Wednesdays on FX.

Stream on Hulu.

So, with that, what are we talking about tonight, Aaron?

Well, tonight, we're going to be talking about a place that has come to be known as Skinwalker Ranch and it's in the Uinta Basin of Northeastern Utah.

And I want to just say up front that this episode is all about this ranch, the families that live there and what they reported and has very little to do with the Native American belief system, what they believe with Skinwalkers.

I think Skinwalker Ranch has about as much to do or a much relation with actual Native American beliefs as say the Kansas City Chiefs.

You can't just slap a name or an arrowhead on something and then claim it has something to do with this culture because this ranch, there's very little, if anything, about this story that actually applies to what the indigenous people in that area actually believe.


When it gets so complex, there's just no way for us if we're going to tell this story on the paranormal side to go into all that other stuff without making this a three-hour endeavor.


So, I think that their beliefs are incredibly interesting and I liked reading up on it.

I liked hearing what they had to say, but this episode is really about this ranch and how it has pretty much appropriated their belief system and turned it into what it is today, which we'll get to that.


Well, let's talk briefly about what a Skinwalker is.

Just for the purpose of this episode and to put all of this in context, a Skinwalker is considered to be a type of harmful witch who has the ability to turn into, possess, or disguise themselves as an animal.

But again, that's how the people who talk about this ranch, that's literally their definition.


And it may or may not represent Native American lore.


So, this all happened when a family by the name of Sherman, of the Shermans, moved in, right?

Yeah, Sherman Ranch, it's about 500 acres near the small Utah communities of Roosevelt, Ballard, and Fort Duchain.

It's considered to be a hotspot, Justin, right?

Of paranormal activity, of unusual happenings.

And they say that this all first came to the attention of the public due to the work of Joseph Jr. Hicks.

And he was a science teacher and a former World War II pilot, very much into aviation.

He was eventually the primary source for a book, the Utah UFO Display by Frank Salisbury.

Now, this was all in the mid to late 60s.

And UFOs and the whole ancient astronaut theorist kind of theory, all of that stuff was gaining traction at that time.

And you had Roswell that sort of kickstarted all of this UFO hysteria, I guess.

A friend of Hicks, who was a teacher, contacted him and told him that he and his students had seen UFOs, which are unidentified flying objects, passing over the school.

And Hicks became fascinated.

So this all kind of started in 1951.

And of course, not long after that, there was controversial film footage of flying disks taken by a warrant officer with the Navy near Trementon.

This made the news in 1952.

So you get through the 50s and into the 60s, and Hicks claimed that he investigated between 400 and 600 UFO sightings just in the span of 1966 and 67.

Now, Aaron, he's hanging out in this area for two years with the intent of documenting all of this UFO phenomena.

Does he have a camera with him?

We had photography back in the 60s, in fact, the black and white photos were beautiful.

Color ones were a little more grainy.

But yeah, I'm just wondering of 400-something sightings, not one photograph.


Well, it's tough, Justin.

There's actually apparently a phenomena where people, when they see unidentified flying objects, they don't think of taking pictures of it.

They're so wrapped up in what they see, it's almost like a tractor beam is locked in on their head and they can't turn away to get that camera.

Do you know what I mean?

I would just assume that if you're not expecting it, sure, you don't have a camera on you.

This is the 60s.

We don't have phones on us.

But when this guy is intentionally there with the sole purpose of investigating this phenomena, how could he not get one picture?

I don't know.

That's just a question I have.

At this point, Kenneth and Edith Myers are the owners of the ranch.

What did these craft look like, Aaron?

These craft apparently, and this is taking in all these reports, they were about 40 feet across and they had pulsating lights around the edge, a light on top, and a strange red energy ray that emanated from the bottom of the craft.

Sounds like every great sci-fi movie from the 1950s.



Now, they describe this light on the bottom.

They said it's not like a light suddenly coming on.

Sometimes you watch the streetlights come on at night.

No, they said this light would emanate slowly from the craft and then it looked almost like that red light was searching for something.

It was like a ray of light, not just a burst of light.


There are many witnesses apparently.

We're talking about hundreds of witnesses and sometimes people said they were as close as 30 feet from one of these objects.

But yeah, again, these are eyewitness accounts.

People are giving their story to the media and saying, this is what I saw.

If you know anything about this area, it is way out there.

I'm not going to say it's out in the boonies, but there's not a lot of, there's no city, there's no society around here.

So at night, you don't have any light pollution and you don't have any fog or any kind of pollution really.

So it gives you the most amazing, brilliant night skies you'll ever see.

Maybe they caught a weather balloon.

Maybe they saw satellite later on.

There are things that you can see with the naked eye up in the night sky when you have zero light pollution.

But when there are some of these witnesses that say it's the middle of the day, it's all around lunchtime and it's this object's 30 feet away.

Yeah, you can't exactly explain that away besides, well, maybe they know that this is a news article that's going on in their area and they want to get quoted too.

So the area, I mean, you talked about the area, it's wide open, very rugged territory and it's populated by cottonwood trees.

People not so much.

Yeah, few and far between.

So of course, because of these sightings and because the stories start coming out, this ranch really gained some attention, right?

I mean, this is a story that takes off in 1978.

It's titled Area Residence Report UFOs and there's actually a reporter with that paper who was with her 10-year-old son and she talks all about what they saw.

It even got picked up by the National Enquirer.

This is going viral in the day and getting national coverage, which is why I heard about it as a child.

But it really got catapulted into the mainstream in the mid-90s.

And of course, this is right when I'm between 16 to 18 years old.

So this is right up my alley.

I'm listening to coast to coast just like you are and we're into paranormal UFO phenomena and this is hitting big when the Sherman family moves in.

But coast to coast I am is really, I think, the way that many people got in tune with this stuff.

And me, I'm definitely a skeptic.

I'm interested in things, but I just don't really believe in them.

But there's nothing like listening to Art Bell talk about his interest in these things.

It makes you interested.

And of course, he has all these fascinating guests on like Colm Kelleher or George Norrie or whoever else talking about the events that they know or they say they know occurred at this ranch.

And so you can actually find that audio if you search for it.

I've listened to pretty much, I don't know, I think I have listened to most coast to coast I am episodes, at least the ones that Art Bell did.

So this is how I really learned about this is through coast to coast I am.

Now, when we started, you were talking about Hicks doing all this investigation work and he was all over this area.

Wasn't just the ranch that he was on and reporting about all these UFO sightings and whatnot.

So now you have Terry and Gwen Sherman coming in and buying this ranch right when staff writer Zach Van Eyck from the Desert News published a story called Frequent Flyers.

And so I'm wondering if there is a connection here on the Sherman seeing all the attention that this ranch is getting and then saying, oh, well, we think there might be something going on too.

So what did the Sherman family report?

Well, their take on it was, and this is something we know because Terry Sherman spoke with Desert News.

Terry said, for a long time, we wondered what we were seeing if it was something to do with the top secret project.

I don't really know what to think about it.

We're seeing aerial phenomena, things in the sky flying around.

Again, very little to do with the Native American beliefs about skinwalkers.

But we do have their accounts.

They have spoken about what they've seen with their own eyes.

I mean, the Shermans, their teenage son and 10-year-old daughter, they talked about seeing three different types of UFOs in 15 months.

All box-like craft with white light, a 40-foot-long object, and a huge ship the size of several football fields, which you see something like that.

I mean, shocking, right?

Something that large in the sky.

They're reporting this.

They're talking about all of these UFOs.

And again, this is the 90s now.

We have cameras.

We have video cameras.

We have camcorders.

We have all kinds of ways to document this.

But they claim that the batteries in their cameras would die or just malfunction in general.

So they couldn't take photos.

They couldn't get any sort of documentation of any of these claims.

But you've seen pictures and videos of unexplained craft, right?

Unidentified craft.

And what are your thoughts when you do see it?

Well, usually it's so poor quality that you can't say, is this a man-made object or a UFO or something from out of this world.

They're usually terrible.

But I guess when you're making so many claims about something that's the size of a football field, I think a photo of that would be a little bit more decisive.

So of course, they talk about seeing a craft emit a wavy red ray.

They also claimed to have seen other unexplained airborne lights, some emitted from orange circular doorways that appeared in midair.

This is one of the things that we've learned about Justin is it's not just strange craft.

It's not just strange lights or orbs.

There are also apparently openings in the sky.

Portals, if you will.


And on the ground too.

Portals, right, a flattened grass about eight feet across in a triangular pattern about 30 feet from each other.

So strange patterns on the ground, basically crop circles, right?

That's what people have come to call them.

And of course, weird impressions in the soil that are a foot or two deep and about three feet wide unexplained just in the dirt.

And there shouldn't be anything out here as much as we call this a ranch.

This is high desert.

You're not growing a lot of crops out here.

The soil is very rocky.

And for something to actually leave this kind of impression or dig its legs or whatever into the ground would take a lot of weight and a large object.

Well that's what they're wondering.

Are these landing impressions from a UFO?

I don't know.

I would have to see a photo of it to give an opinion.

And they didn't even take a photo of the ground, but here we are.

There's a story from Terry Sherman where they were out there with the family dogs and they heard male voices speaking in a language they didn't understand.

And Terry claimed that the voices seemed to be coming from above him, 25 feet above him.

But when he looked around, he didn't see anything.

But the dogs were going crazy.

They were barking and growling.

And then they ended up running off back to the ranch house.

At this point that they're installing chains on their front porch.

They're installing cameras.

They are trying to protect themselves and catch what is going on outside, according to them.

One of the repeated stories that you hear about the ranch isn't just UFO lore, but you also hear about cattle mutilation.

And this is something that people have talked about for many years.

They do take photos of the dead cattle and they'll show maybe its skin has been torn or cut.

And they're like, this is almost laser precision.

This is surgical mutilation.

But when I look at a lot of these photos, Aaron, I know when boxers will be fighting and you're getting clubbed over the head with this huge glove, yet some of the cuts that appear on their forehead, more or less a tear, they look like someone cut them with a razor.

And so I look at a lot of the cattle mutilations and I think, well, yeah, their eyes and their tongues are going to be eaten first by predation and if a bobcat or a large predatory animal took a swat at them, yeah, it can look like the skin is cut with surgical precision when it's really just torn or has been shredded by a talon of some sort or claw.

All right, everybody.

It's official.

Alaska Airlines is the most caring airline in the sky.

While other airlines are busy talking about their customer service, Alaska Airlines is delivering next level customer care to every one of their guests day after day, flight after flight.

Better yet, with the Alaska Airlines mileage plan, you'll earn 30% more miles compared to other U.S. airlines with mileage plans.

See slash mileage plan for details.

That's like earning extra hugs from grandma and who wouldn't want that?

Book your next flight today at and take to the skies with the only airline that puts the air in care.

Alaska Airlines.

The shocking true crime podcast, The Devil Within, is back for a second season with a story about love, exorcism, and a murder that's haunted the town of West Yorkshire for decades.

In 1974, Michael Taylor was a doting father of five, but after joining a local church and falling in love with its young, beautiful preacher, Michael changed.

His new church determined that he was possessed by no fewer than 48 demons and would require an exorcism to save his soul and protect his young family from evil.

And the supposed remedy would come at a very steep price.

The terrifying series The Devil Within is available on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening right now.

If you'd like to binge the entire series early and add free, subscribe to Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app.

But some of these stories, especially George Knapp and Colm Kelleher, have talked about this and they say that in 1998, 1999, and 2000, every one of the cattle that was mutilated was pregnant at the time.

But when the bodies of these cows were found and then they were examined, they were empty.

This surmised that something took the fetus of these calves, each of them out of the cows.

And all they could find when they actually did autopsies was there was a bunch of scarring inside their wombs.

So I don't know what to make of that, but of course, this is just, we're taking their stories and relating them.

I mean, we didn't examine the animals.

We don't have photographic evidence of this.

So once again, it's a story and this is what we know, this is what we've heard.

And then the stories start to shift from UFOs in the sky to things on the ground.

And one of the first oddities that they report is a large wolf or a dire wolf, which is a wolf that's about the size of a horse.

And they claim that they were working outside and there was a cow across the yard and they see this large wolf out in the distance.

And of course, their dogs begin to bark and alerting to this.

And they talk about this wolf and they say that it approaches slowly.

They say that it doesn't look menacing, meaning its ears aren't back, it looks somewhat docile, although it's the size of a horse.

And it approaches them and actually lets them pet it.

And I don't know why you'd want to pet a wolf that's almost as tall as you.

I mean, I wouldn't pet a wolf that was a regular sized wolf.


But they're claiming that they're outside by the truck and this wolf comes up.

And as maybe as unsettling as the size of the wolf is, they're all standing around just sort of dumbfounded by it, I guess.

Because personally, I think if I was Terry Sherman, I would be telling everybody to get in the truck or get inside the house if this walked up.

I mean, there's no reason to not seek shelter from such a large animal, dangerous animal for that matter.

But they say that this wolf attacked one of their calves and that's when Terry got his 357 Magnum revolver out of his truck and shot at the wolf.

And he said it had no impact.

It seemed to do nothing.

And they talk about these large wolves a lot and how they would kill their cow.

So for people wondering, because I think we should explain this a little better, but dire wolves, if there was one at the time, they're bigger than a large wolf, right?

So a large wolf would be, say, a timber wolf.

And they're about six feet long, but a dire wolf, you'd have to add a couple more feet onto that thing.

I think a lot of people have watched Game of Thrones and they're portrayed very well in there.

And they talk about how they had six bulls, like these huge bulls, male cows, whatever.

I guess a UFO or something comes overhead.

Everyone on the ranch is dumbstruck and doesn't know what's going on.

And then all of a sudden, the bulls disappear.

And they find the bulls inside of this trailer that is only about 20 feet long and 10 feet wide, which means you have to line these bulls up perfectly to get them all to fit inside of this trailer, Aaron.

And it had to have been this alien craft that was able to transport the bulls into this animal trailer because no human could have gotten them in there so quickly.


There's another story of bulls being moved into a shed.

We might even be talking about the same story, but it's been repeated so many times that maybe one person said it's an animal trailer and somebody else says it's a shed now.

It could be the same story, but the telephone game makes it change over time.

They also report sensations in the ground, like the ground rumbling, like somebody's driving a bulldozer or something by, and sounds of colossal machines moving underground.

So unsettling sounds, unexplained sounds, what's going on here?

And then there's this report of water babies, which our children said to have been drowned and now lurk in bodies of water in the afterlife.

And they mimic the cries of babies to lure us or animals to the water's edge so then they can snatch them and drag them into the water.

And this is now part of the stories from the family.

And they talk about the portals again.

And what did they say about that?

There was like an opening that came outside of their house, a big opening.

Well, according to Terry, he witnessed firsthand from a ridge overlooking the desert a portal.

And from this portal, an eight-foot humanoid creature who was dressed all in black stepped through this portal and into, I guess, our world.

This is all his word.

This is what he's seeing.

And you have aliens, you have trans-dimensional beings or interdimensional beings, you have large wolves, you have UFOs flying overhead, orbs.

You got it all in this story, right?

I mean, this is just covering all of the bases from all of the stories that people knew from the 60s and 70s about UFOs and paranormal creatures.

Well, in the Sherman family, they had, of course, spoken with Desert News, and there was this frequent flyers article.

That was basically towards the end of their ownership of this ranch.

And they sold it in 1996.

It wasn't, I guess, news who bought the ranch, but they eventually figured out who it was.

It was Robert Bigelow, who was the founder of Bigelow Airspace.

And they are, well, they're pretty known for being the first to develop and test the technology for inflatable space habitats.

And I can only assume they have some big government contracts, and Bigelow is rich enough to buy this ranch and rich enough to turn it into his own investigative platform, right?

Yeah, apparently he had a very strong interest in the unexplained, in the supernatural, the paranormal, in what we would term fringe science.

That's being generous, yeah.

Yeah, they say that in 2021, Robert Bigelow offered a million dollars to anyone who could help improve that consciousness can continue after bodily death.

So I think that says more about his interest than about him figuring something out personally.

And he's now regurgitating a lot of the stories from the Shermans and the previous owners about the going-ons at this ranch.

And he is setting up cameras.

He's setting up a whole system to document what's going on with the intent of selling the story.

Well, I think for a lot of people who believe in Robert Bigelow, they would say, well, he has a foundation, it's the National Institute for Discovery Science, NIDS, and that was founded in 1995.

Now, we don't really know how it was funded.

It was probably funded by Bigelow, but he may have had friends join in.

Some people say even the US government got involved in that.

I don't know why they would, but that's the story.

Because he has NIDS, this is the perfect place to set up investigations, right?

So let me just put it this way.

I think the reason why this has gotten so much attention is because there are people out there who believe in conspiracy theories, they believe in these ideas that the government is testing or attempting to discover things that we do not have a handle on.

And when you go back to stories about portals opening and people walking out of them or creatures, then, well, if they could figure this stuff out, that could be incredibly helpful to the government, right?

So that's how they tie that together, I believe.

I see a huge plot hole here because the government can buy up and take any land at once.

That's why this ranch is such a hot spot.

I would just presume that the government would come in and buy it up and use it to further investigate this aerial phenomena and figure out that technology.

But for some reason, they leave it in the private sector and let these people live there, and though it's such an incredible hot spot of supernatural and paranormal phenomena.

Well, but that's where people would point to Robert Bigelow and say, there's their partner.

He's in on it.

You bring in someone who would know what to do with the investigation, how to steer it, how to collect the data, right?

So they have him.

So Bigelow, as far as we know, was doing a lot of investigations out there, and they had these observation platforms built on the ranch.

They had dogs at these platforms who could raise the alarm just in case anything approached from the surrounding wilderness.

So they have dogs on 20-foot chains as their alert system.

They have cameras.

They have these observation platforms or, I guess, in the hunting world to be called the blinds, and they're ready for anything.

Yeah, and there are stories that dogs were mysteriously released from these locked pens or chains and that they would be found running around, or these dogs would be seen barking at the air supposedly hearing voices from overhead, but nothing was seen.

And so this is where they blame a trickster, someone who was in an unusual or invisible form.

But this whole investigation thing that people claimed that maybe the government was even in on with Robert Bigelow, well, it lasted until 2004.

And the only way to really find information on NIDS is you need to use the Wayback machine.

A lot of it's not readily available, and I spent some time looking through it.

But for those thinking that Robert Bigelow was in with the government, well, if he was ever in with the government that came to an end at some point because in March of 2021, he ended up suing NASA for $1.05 million, saying that he was not paid according to contract for product testing and development.

I remember he is the founder of Bigelow Aerospace.

Yeah, apparently he says that things didn't work out between his group and the government.

So if they were in Cahoots, well, it didn't end well.

And it's in 2016 that a shell company ends up buying this ranch.

Yeah, and I read the name, Justin.

It says Adamantium Holdings.

And my first thought is...




And people will create shell companies, which is essentially a bogus company to do business, whether it be to shield their own identity, shield their taxes and assets, whatever it is.

And they'll use this company to buy something so they can be anonymous.

But this company, well, we'll find out who actually is behind most of it.


But what people realize right away is that when this company, Adamantium Holdings, gets ahold of this ranch, they secure the crap out of it.

I mean, they go in and they start putting up fences and barricades to keep people away from it.

It becomes a very gated area.

And your animals aren't just going to stumble into this field anymore because it's all fenced off.

It's very secure and it's all for being able to control what's going on in this ranch.

So who's the new owner?

Well, the new owner is eventually revealed to be Brandon Fugel.

And he's a real estate mogul from Utah and a self-professed skeptic.

Now he's a skeptic, but he comes in with the intent of investigating this ranch.

He comes in with the intent of documenting what's going on.


I don't know.

I guess if you're saying you're a skeptic and you want to disprove things, that's one thing, but proving a negative is really hard.

So claiming you're a skeptic and then trying to document the weird stuff, well, that sort of goes against your whole, I'm a skeptic.

Well, I don't know.

You would think that hopefully a skeptic would be open enough to admitting to seeing things, even if it defied their normal beliefs.

But I know what you're saying.

It seems like he sets this up where he's allowing even other investigators to come in and access the ranch.

And so, yeah, this isn't exactly skepticism at work here, I would say.

This is more like, what can we do with this place?

When you talk about investigators, I mean, even the likes of Ghost Adventures has investigated or gone through this ranch.

It's getting to all the TV reality shows and networks.

And he has a quote.

It says, six months into our investigation, I had an experience while entertaining a visiting dignitary and his security detail that involved an undeniable sighting of what can only be described as a 40 to 50 foot long silver grayish disc-like object that performed maneuvers that were stunning and defy conventional explanation.

He said that happened in broad daylight and that there were multiple people who saw it.

Not one pulled out of phone.

Well, let's address that for a moment, Justin.

There are people writing books about this ranch that go and do interviews about this ranch and talk about the things they've seen, about the cattle mutilations, about portals, about odd occurrences, right?

Things like cattle suddenly being moved or killed, what have you.

And yet when they're asked, can you show us evidence of this, they pretty much just have to point to Robert Bigelow and say, well, he's got all of it because he was the one that was collating the information.

He was collecting it all.

So again, we're asking, can we see stuff?

And right now, there are a lot of interesting stories, but we're waiting on those pictures.


I mean, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

We're not even asking for extraordinary evidence.

I'm asking for one photo of this 50-foot long silver craft in broad daylight.

And there isn't one.


And this is at a time where you would think there could be a pretty good picture of such a thing, right?


Maybe the batteries didn't work.

But it's in 2017 that the US government makes a claim here.

Well, it really comes about because of the New York Times.

They report the existence of a previously unpublicized program.

It's known as Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program.

They call it ATIP.

Now this program was meant to evaluate threats from unidentified aerial objects.

Now I hear that and I think, well, we don't know what other countries are developing and flying.

We don't know if things are visiting us from other worlds.

We have no idea.

So this is basically a program that evaluates threats.

And so they try to capture things on video, right?

But this Advanced Aerospace, this ATIP, they weren't created based on this ranch and the UFO phenomenon there.

This group was created for a lot of other reasons, probably more Earth-related reasons.

But it was another video from the US Navy pilot video, right?

That really is tied to this ATIP group, not this ranch.

Are you talking about the Tic Tac UFO?


Yeah, that was from 2004.

Man, that was all over the news, right?

Everybody wanted to talk about it.

It's still in the news today.

And what do you think of the video?

It's unexplainable and it's good quality.

And you have military pilots, you have radars, you have all of this stuff documenting this and you have this aerial phenomenon that is moving in a way that we don't have anything that moves like that.

It's defying gravity and physics.

So you can find this video today, search for USS Nimitz Tic Tac and you'll find it.

They say this is a declassified video.

So forward-looking infrared, right?

This is the only video they have from the incident, they say.

And this video is very compelling.

And this government department, this program was funded for the years of 2007 to 2012 before it was shut down.

And it had nothing to do with this ranch, but the people that love the lore of this ranch will talk about and tie these two things together.

Well I think it's one thing to have all these stories, right?

But without actual video or photographic evidence, there are people saying, but come on, show me.

I think you've been doing that.

But they can point over to this incident with the USS Nimitz and say, but wait, wait, wait, look at that.


There are unexplained things out there.

So why can't you understand what we've been telling you?

Why would all these people make it up?

We're telling you these stories because we've seen these things.

That's what they're trying to say.

Because one thing, one time, one video, I cannot justify a million other videos or a million other allegations or claims to be true.

I have to take it case by case.


So if you read about this, I mean not to go too far off track here, but this Tic Tac UFO here, you read about it and there's a retired US Navy Lieutenant Commander, Alex Dietrich, and she talked about this.

And according to her, it looked like a smooth white oblong object that kind of looked like a Tic Tac breath mint that was flying high speed over the water and didn't appear to have any means of propulsion.

It was just flying quickly over the water.

Her and a fellow pilot named David Fravor, I hope I got his name right.

They saw this churning of the ocean surface before seeing this object.

Now I mean, they went out there because there were radar contacts in the area that could not be explained.

The way the objects were moving just didn't make sense.

So even myself as a skeptic, when you have Navy personnel who are used to seeing things, who are saying, we don't know what this is.

It's interesting.

I don't know what it is, but I believe them when they say that they don't know what it is either.

So I think it makes things interesting.


But you're right.

You can't take that story and then immediately apply it to this ranch and say, well, I mean, then some of that has to be true too.

There are definitely unexplained things happening there.

But we now have the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force that replaced ATIP and airborne object identification and management secretion group.


Yeah, that's a mouthful.

So the government, I mean, I think it's from this 2004 Tic Tac video.

The government is taking it more seriously.

Do you ever dream about being more creative?

Do you feel like there's a version of yourself that could use a bit of leveling up or maybe you're just looking to shift your mindset?

I'm Guy Razz and my new podcast, The Great Creators, is going to inspire you to be the best version of yourself.

Every week I interview someone at the top of their game and ask them how they came to master their craft and ultimately how they became more successful in life.

So here's stories about how these creators overcame stage fright, learned how to be present and content, conquered creative blocks, and formed lasting partnerships.

By the end of each episode, you'll have a roadmap that you can apply to your own work and life.

Follow The Great Creators on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening right now.

You can listen to new episodes of The Great Creators one week early on Amazon Music or early and ad-free by subscribing to Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app.

How many people do you think want to visit this ranch and have their own sighting?


This is one of the reasons why they've locked it down because they don't want people just walking onto the property just for liability reasons alone.

You can fall off this big ridge, hurt yourself, you could be bit by a rattlesnake, something, whatever, because it's become so popular, especially in reality shows.

I'm sure people are flocking to it and they, I think, want to control what's documented and said about this area.

That's one way to do it.

It's theirs and I get that.

But for those of us that are curious, we would like to see here and understand more about what goes on out there if there is unexplained phenomena happening out there.

But unfortunately, it's been locked down for a long time, it feels like.

But there are people who have come out and tried to explain why we don't have the data.

We've talked about this throughout the episode.

We don't have pictures.

We don't have video evidence where they could say, all right, I can't prove to you that this was some sort of craft from another world.

But tell me what you think it is.

And then we would be replying with, I don't know what that is, but we don't have that.

So there was an investigator who talked about this and they labeled it as precognitive Symbian intelligence.

This was Dr. John B. Alexander.

And this is a way to explain all this, right?

How can no one get evidence?

People experience stuff out there.

They can tell you about it, but they can't prove it to you.

They can't even give you anything to make you think twice.

And what this is about, according to Dr. Alexander, is that this entity who they believe is responsible for this stuff can actually predict what you're going to do.

So people with cameras would point them in a direction of lights they see.

And then the lights would suddenly be somewhere else or they would disappear.

People would let the dogs out and they'd set a trap just in case it would happen again, but then it wouldn't.

It's almost like no matter what they tried to prepare for, things would not happen the same way or in a way that you could predict because whatever the entities are out there or entity, it would know what you were doing, what you were up to, and it would foil your plans.

Well, that's a great explanation of why no one can document this.

But Brandon and his team, they claim they've been documenting this and they even have a whole reality show, Aaron.

It's called The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch.

Have you watched it?

I have watched some of it, yes.

I'm going to try to be nice here.

I know that there are a lot of people involved, but Brandon saying he's a self-proclaimed skeptic and then you have Travis Taylor who is essentially the scientist of the team that's conducting experiments and trying to gather evidence or disprove things.

Then you have the whole team of guys that live or work the ranch, but really they're not working the ranch.

They're working the reality show.

This whole thing has pretty much been monetized and commercialized.

Is that a word?

Now, what did you think of the reality show, Aaron?

Because I got my opinions and I'm going to hold back for a minute.

Well, I think if you're interested in this ranch and its history, then I think the show does a good job of feeding information to you from people and showing you things, showing you the ranch where you stay interested.

It's just enough to keep you interested.

Look, there are those of us that say, show me something, give me proof, but they can't make a series of this and then show you something in the first episode that's basically all they have.

Whatever they have, if they have anything.

They have to draw it out because otherwise you don't have a series.

You would have a documentary and that's not what they did here.

It's obvious why they don't have a documentary because they don't have this evidence that would knock people off their feet and make them say, oh my goodness, I was a skeptic and now everything I thought was true, meaning science, that I'm going to have to throw it out the window because I'm seeing things that just shouldn't be.

I can't explain this.

The show and Brandon, they claim that they're finding evidence and they're showing you on this reality show, the evidence that they've collected and it's unexplained and they portray it as you debunk this because we're finding all of this unexplainable stuff with all of our high-end scientific equipment and our experiments that we're running.

There's things that are completely unexplainable on this ranch, Aaron.

Yeah, so if you have it in your head that this ranch is amazing and that there are all kinds of visitors from other worlds via spacecraft from other worlds or from portals, you're going to be disappointed.

I think that the people that are into this stuff, they're not actually expecting to see something.

They're waiting for it, but not seeing it hasn't stopped them from watching.

The show is still on because people are watching.

I think it's keeping them hooked in a way.

For those of us that want the proof and they're saying, you have all these cameras and we're talking about in 2022 here, we have modern cameras, right?

2021, 2022, we have HD cameras.

I can use my Samsung 22 Ultra and I can get a really nice picture of the moon now, but why don't we have some kind of picture of a dire wolf or a person coming out of a portal, something?

I'll tell you why.

Reality shows have reality in their title or their name, I guess, but I know people in the industry and there's very little reality going on in reality shows.

It's TV producers that don't care to hire writers and they're just going to put microphones on a bunch of people and video or film them running around doing whatever.

Then they create drama, they create tension, they create a storyline with just what they have in front of their cameras.

I have one friend, he went on a reality show to get a tattoo.

He had actually got the tattoo or received the tattoo from the artist on the show, but he had got the tattoo like two years prior.

But of course, he goes on the show and he gets this tattoo and they slather some Vaseline on it so it looks fresh and they show some stock footage of the person doing the tattoo and then he tells a little story about what it means to him and that's the show.

Another friend that worked in the clothing industry and they wanted to do a reality show about the high-end, high-fashion clothing industry and they were really efficient at their jobs and the producers of the show were like, well, we need some drama.

The shipping department's not shipping the stuff out fast enough so we need you to go back there and yell at them and my friend's like, I'm not going to do that.

The pilot never even got, it never got past the pilot portion because there wasn't enough drama or conflict in that reality show.

And here we are with the secret of Skinwalker Ranch show and knowing that this is all literally them running around with equipment that it doesn't even appear that they know how to use it correctly or they use it and they get some information or they get a reading that's a little weird and then they read it wrong or they just don't get any of the data that they actually need to make an honest evaluation of what they're looking at.

I mean, there's no scientific method employed at all when they're doing these episodes and I just watched one literally before we started recording and Travis is with the group and they're shooting these rockets up into the sky to get readings on stuff and then acting like the readings are weird for some reason.

And then he is behaving as if he's woken up in his little trailer, his little camper and he's like, yeah, I heard this whooshing sound and you see him walking out of the trailer and you see one of the rockets shooting up in the background and he behaves as if he doesn't know what's going on or what this noise is or why his dogs are barking.

You literally just showed us the rockets that you were shooting off earlier, but whatever.

There's another one where they're doing a night shot and they have all these spotlights and all these laser pointers and stuff and they're using their infrared and their night vision and then they show the night sky and they're like, well, look at this huge ray of light up in the sky.

What's that coming from?

You're thinking it's coming from your vehicle with the huge spotlight shining up into the night sky.

Then there's this other part where they have these multi-thousand dollar drones covered in cameras and motion detection and they're flying them around the ranch and hovering over a cow that seems to be in distress.

And then in the very next scene, they have a photo of this cow and there's something in the air above it and they're like, oh my God, what's above the cow?

That must be a UFO.

We can't explain it.

I'm just thinking you literally just had this drone above the cow and then you took a photo of it and now you're showing it to me and claiming it's a UFO.

Well, the cow was in distress, Justin.

Yeah, it was afraid.

I felt more for the cow than anyone on the show.

And then there's this whole thing about you can't dig on the ranch.

Digging will cause the angry spirits to attack you or curse you.

Bad things happen if you dig.

So first they bring in this team of guys to do ground penetrating radar.

And I just think to myself, so you can't put a shovel to the earth, but you can do ground penetrating radar and that won't upset the spirits.

What is the logic there?

I don't know.

And then they go on to have a Native American chief from one of the local tribes come over and do a blessing so they can actually break ground without being cursed.

And so they get this guy, he comes over and he does this ritual and they say, thank you for doing that.

And he's like, well, none of you were actually saying it with me, saying the chant with me.

So he goes, it's only really protecting me.

It's not protecting you.

I'm just thinking, what was the whole point of this if they're trying to do this blessing before a dig?

But then the guy says, I hoped you all would have joined me in this blessing because you're the ones digging, not me.

Then they pull out their Geiger counters and all their scientific devices to measure things.

And their cell phones.

Yeah, and their cell phones.

And they're talking about the radiation that's being admitted in this area.

And they're like, oh my gosh, this is terrible.

We're getting hit with so much radiation here.

And then they're talking about how the radiation is coming from the earth or coming from the sky.

And that's why they were shooting the rockets up.

But there's what's called radon gas.

I mean, you own a home with a basement.

I mean, every house you buy, they suggest that you do radon testing.

I mean, and a Geiger counter is not going to detect radon gas, but it will detect radioactive particles in the air.

And if you're outside on the side of a mountain that's been eroded and scraped off, wind and dust is blowing around and your Geiger counter is going to detect something.

And as soon as it detects something, instead of just thinking, well, maybe I'm in an area that has a lot of radon gas or radioactive particles emitting from the earth, they go straight to aliens.

They go straight to, this is totally and completely unexplainable and it must be aliens.

And that's kind of my problem with this whole thing, Aaron.

It's always aliens, right?

Well, it's not just aliens, but also they use animals as bait on this show, right?

They all pack as.

That seemed a curious choice to me because people love those animals, right?

And now you're using them as bait to maybe get killed or eaten or sent through a portal.

Seems kind of weird.

And you know, there's something that happens with this show that happens with Oak Island show and a lot of these types of shows where they'll say, okay, today we're going to get to the bottom of things.

We're going to do this.

And whether it's digging or blasting something or setting up cameras, you know, at a certain area that has a lot of activity, whatever it is, they do that once.

And then as soon as they fail or it's not working out, they're like, ah, well, we tried.

I've realized with a show, you can't get to the bottom of things mostly because if there's something to be found, it usually takes a lot of work and you can't just try something once for 10 minutes for a half hour, whatever it is, and say, well, we tried, we're going to do this other thing next now.

You have to get a plan going and you have to see it through, but they don't do that on these shows because.

What's the fun in that, right?

Well, I mean, people have short attention spans and the people who are really going to stick with you, who don't care if you find anything really, they just want you to go to the next thing because if it's not working out right away, then let's try something else.

We'll get something here.

Whether it's a ghost hunting show or a Bigfoot hunting show or this ranch show, it's always we're doing these scientific experiments to gather evidence, but the first thing of a scientific experiment is a control group.

You can tell me all the history of this house that's haunted and then go in with your EMPs or whatever, your little detectors and tell me how the house is haunted and prove your own hypothesis.

You can tell me that there's radiation coming from the ground at this ranch, but what's the control?

Go 20 miles down the street and do these same readings.

Go to the house next door that didn't have anyone murdered in it and do these same things and tell me how it works out for you because that's just Science 101 here.

This is just basic stuff.

Give me a control group.

Yeah, but that's not really the purpose of this.

I think really if you want to be nice about the show because obviously some people love it, but I think it's more of just the we're poking around in this area that you're curious about so you're getting to see the area.

We're poking around.

We're going to dig some holes.

We're going to show you some simulations of what may have occurred or what people saw, whatever it is.

That's enough for people.

In that regard, if they're entertaining people, then that's really, I guess that's okay.

That's what people wanted.

For those people that wanted answers, well, I guess the answers are whatever you want them to be.

Ultimately, they have appropriated Native American beliefs and culture and then turned it into exploitation to make money.

That's what it is at the end of the day.

They could name the ranch something else, but they don't because they have to run with that because it's the catch.

It's what gets people watching.

It's what it's known as.

What we started with, this has nothing to do with Native Americans.

This is really that you could just call it alien ranch.

I know.

Whatever it is because it's nothing to do with the actual skinwalker belief.

It just seems ridiculous and exploitive to me when I see this show, when I hear about this ranch changing hands and then the next family or owner talks about this or that.

I remember with the Amityville whorehouse, same kind of deal, finally got a buyer who said, hey, this place isn't haunted.

There's something wrong here.

I look at the Bigelow and the...

Brandon Fugel.

I think both of them just came in with the sole intent of capitalizing on this and they had no interest in anything but making money.

Well, I think there's some entertainment value here too.

I spent some time reading reviews of this show and it's neat reading reviews from people who are well experienced with something, say drilling and just hearing them review the drilling aspect of the show.

I don't know.

It's kind of fun.

I think this is like anything else.

Like I said, I'm a skeptic.

I don't really believe in any of this stuff.

I have my times, especially when Art Bell was talking about it where I would tune in and I would listen because the stories are interesting.

When people start describing things they've seen, I can tell myself, I don't know what they saw really, but it's probably not real.

Then I have my own story, Justin.

Whenever I gave my story on one of our personal story episodes, I saw something I can't explain.

I don't know what it was, but if you asked me if you had to bet everything you own, is this really a craft or were you just seeing something that wasn't really there?

I would tell you, I'm pretty sure I saw a craft and I don't know what it was.

It didn't even look that fancy.

In fact, it's probably more akin to a black, shiny tic-tac, what I saw flying through the air.

That's just it.

There are things that have been seen by Navy pilots or by people.

They can't explain it.

They can tell you what's weird about it, but they can't tell you what it is.

I think that's just one of those things about life is we can't know everything, but we do know that this has become a series on TV.

If you want an explanation, well, it's a show.

Never miss an episode of Generation Y. Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Cast Box, or we're ever listening right now.

After subscribing, please leave us a review.

Our website is

Visit to learn more about events and updates.

Justin and I have other podcasts.

Everything is framed in investigative story.

Each season is a deep dive into a case that went wrong and why.

Justin's other podcast is The Peripheral.

His guests share personal stories.

Most would consider taboo, but Justin doesn't judge.

This podcast is a safe space for listeners and their stories.