The After Show: Family Lies?

Hi there, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts.
Welcome to 2020 The After Show. Today, we're going to talk about family lies, our most recent episode, one which I reported on, and one which has just captivated so many people.
When Nathan Carmen was discovered adrift on a life raft in the Atlantic in 2016, the world saw a young man who narrowly escaped death. It was an amazing, harrowing story of survival.
His mom, Linda, was nowhere to be found, lost at sea with his boat called the Chicken Pox, which sank during a deep sea fishing trip. That's what he told everyone.
But what started as a story of survival soon turns into something much darker. As investigators look a little deeper into the accident, they discover that Nathan was also the last person to see his grandfather alive, millionaire real estate developer John Chocolos.
The 87-year-old had been shot execution style in his own bed just three years earlier, and soon detectives began thinking that the boat sinking wasn't an accident, casting further suspicion on the surviving son who maintained his innocence in both cases. So the question becomes, could Nathan have orchestrated the death of two family members to get a hold of his inheritance? Is he a victim of tragic circumstances or a cold-hearted killer? Here's a clip from our program.
He calls for his mother throughout the rest of the day. Never once saw her, never heard from her.
And he said upon nightfall, you know, he gave up trying to search for her,

and he went to sleep and then drifted through the Atlantic Ocean until he was located.

So let's get back to your mother.

You talk to her, you know, all the time.

You know, you go out fishing twice a week.

How would you describe, you know, your relationship with her?

Is it good?

I don't see the relevance to this particular incident here. I think concur.
I think this interview is over. Thank you, though.
I think I'm tired. Thank you.
After the interview is over, from our perspective, we're like, okay, this isn't just a missing persons investigation. We may be dealing with maybe a homicide.
And that's what made the story so intriguing for us. My guest today is 2020 producer Jonathan Balthazar.
Jonathan, I've been saying your name wrong. Balthazar.
Balthazar. All these years I've been saying Balthazar.
That's okay. Hi, Debra.
Good to see you. Good to see you.
Thanks for having me. Good to have you here.
Well, I just call you Jonathan anyway. JB, they call me.
JB, exactly. Well, it's great to have you here because you and i have worked on a lot of stories together our reporting has taken us to a lot of crazy places adventures um canadian far north uh attica prison which i forgot about that yeah that was the upper west side oh my gosh we interviewed rod covelyn yeah and now out at sea.
You got me on a boat.

I got you on a boat.

We had a great day at sea.

Actually, the weather turned out to be pretty good for this one.

So you and I have been out on a lot of different shoots.

And I always ask you when these stories are brought to me, what was it about it that intrigued you?

Well, you know, 2020 has been on this story from the very beginning.

And at first, it appeared

that this was just a heroic rescue tale. Yeah.
I mean, something out of the movies, this kid gets

rescued at sea after a week. Yeah, bobbing around in a raft from a Chinese cargo freighter needle

in a haystack. It was an incredible rescue story.
The media hopped on that we were, we were chasing

that story. But then the layers started to emerge.
And as people started looking into the case, it turns out that Nathan was the last person to see both his mother and his grandfather alive. And his grandfather, it turned out, had been murdered three years prior.
And nobody had ever been charged in that case. No one had been charged.
It was still an act of investigation. It still is an act of investigation, actually.
You know, as we delve deeper and deeper, we found it really turned into this family saga just filled with so many interesting characters. John Shacolos, Nathan's grandfather, was this patriarch, this very wealthy businessman.
He had all kinds of contacts, all kinds of reasons that people might have a beef with him. And many people in his family had, it was a very complicated family dynamic.
To say the least. Yes.
He was very generous with his money, but he used the money. He kind of ruled a little bit with an iron fist.
So he was a guy who was obviously beloved in his family. He had worked very hard, but he could also be very tough.
He was tough, but Nathan and him had a very special relationship. Nathan was the firstborn grandson, and he was sort of the golden child for his grandfather.
He was taking him to business meetings. He was paying for his apartment.
His boat really just took care of him. And then, you know, Nathan emerges as really the heart of the story and a fascinating character.
He also, we learned he was on the autism spectrum and that just makes watching him all the more fascinating. Yeah, because you're not sure, is he just devoid of emotion or is that just part of his disability? Everyone can watch and determine for themselves, is he just nervous? Is he lying? Is this just the way he behaves? He says in an interview with us, you know, I don't understand people.
So he doesn't react to questions from police or from interviewers the way many people think he should. So that created a lot of extra suspicion on him.
Yeah, and that's what made you such a great producer on the story, just because you had been on it from the beginning. Then, of course, fast forward three years later, and then he's out on this boat and this whole, you know, bizarre, you know, rescue at sea.
The boat has supposedly sank. His mother is nowhere to be found.
He doesn't know what happened, but thinks, assumes that maybe she fell overboard. So we decide, you know, of course, to pick up, because that's where so many people remember the story.
And to tell it, let's go out on a boat to talk about this, right? And here it is. At the end of winter, you are trying to convince me to go out on a boat, first of all, out in the Atlantic.
You were game from the very beginning. I was, I was.
But of course, I needed to feel like it was safe. Tell us a little bit about how you go about doing something like that.
Because one of the challenges was also this time of year, getting a boat, finding a boat that was similar to his to go out. Tell us about how you do that.
Yeah, this is a big production challenge. And, you know, at 2020, we try and bring the viewer into the crime scene, the scene where it happens.
We try and get crime scene photos. We try and go into the actual space.
But in this case, of course, we couldn't do that because the boat had sunk. And we don't really, really know where it happened.
That's part of the intrigue of the story. That's part of one of the questions.
But we want to show the viewer and bring them in and make them understand where this happened. So we search for a boat and a captain as close to nathan's boat which is called the chicken pox 30 31 foot fishing boat and we tried to find as best example of that as we could and our whole team was calling every marina every dock every captain from connecticut to rhode island um trying to find a boat and you know of course we're shooting this just the past few months in February, March.
A lot of boats are on dry dock. Yes, of course.
They're still wrapped up. And so it was very difficult to find, but credit to our whole production team.
We were able to find a boat that was almost exactly mirrored Nathan's. It was a little bit longer, but it had the same specifications.
Captain Dave brought us out. Yeah.
And, you know, and then, of course, I was worried about the weather every single day because it was still March in New England. And I didn't want to be throwing up.
Right. We all wanted to be comfortable, but then we woke up and it was a bright, sunny day and it was actually a beautiful day at sea.
It was beautiful. And of course, the crew knew so much about this story, just having been up there.
This is an area that you know well, too, because you grew up or spent time up in that area. Well, yes, I grew up.
I mean, one of my favorite parts of being a producer at 2020 is traveling around the country and the world and visiting places I might not normally get to visit. But in this case, I grew up outside Boston, Lexington, Massachusetts, and the whole story took place sort of in my own backyard.
I spent summers working in Provincetown on the Cape and spent lots of time in the Berkshires. In this case, you know, traverses almost all of New England.
There were things that happened in almost every state, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Vermont. So we, you know, it was really nice to be able to get to spend time back in New England.
In fact, one of our best crew guys that we use, we did a big road trip just shooting B-roll locations of every spot. And on the way, we were going back to Boston, I was mapping it out, and I was going right by my parents' house.
And I texted my mom and said, do you think my cameraman and I can come by for dinner?

And she said, yeah.

And you did?

And yeah.

And my mom made us dinner and we got to have a nice home-cooked meal for dinner.

That's cool.

That's very cool.

That doesn't happen very often.

Well, more to talk about on this, but we're going to take a quick break.

And when we come back, more on this story and our trip out to sea with Jonathan.

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Welcome back to the 2020 After Show. Jonathan is here with me.
Well, one of the particular challenges, of course, of this story is that, you know, it did happen out there in the ocean. And so we're on this boat and, you know, trying to figure out what happened at sea.
You bring the maritime lawyer who was involved in this case out to sea to talk to us a little bit about it. And one of the things I found fascinating is hearing him talk about the very specific sort of the science of when they began to feel like Nathan's story sort of didn't add up about where he said the boat may have gone down, where he was rescued.
I mean, that was pretty intriguing. Yeah, I mean, there were lots of odd aspects of Nathan's story about how the boat sank that investigators jumped on immediately.
And so that's one of the reasons we went on the boat too, is to kind of get a visual sense and really understand why his story may or may not have made sense. I mean, one of the things he said was that the boat was taking on water and he told his mother, go take in the fishing reels.
And she said, okay. And that was the last thing he ever heard from her.
And then you're on this boat and you realize it's quite small. And how would you not be able to talk to her, you know, in a very panic kind of stricken sort of way? Yeah.
Another thing is that he went, he said he didn't think the boat was sinking, yet he went in three times to get survival gear and bring it out. He passed by this, you know, Mayday radio beacon three times without calling for help.
And he just said he didn't think the boat was sinking. And so, you know, you talked to Dave Farrell, and you went in the wheelhouse and you could see it's it's right there it would take three seconds yeah um so because I always thought maybe it would be something that was more complicated and he's like no you just like press this one little button and that's it and the other thing was just the general size of the boat and that he said he'd never saw his mother again and I mean this is this is a small boat the size of a small living room.
You would see her going down. You would think.
Yeah. You know.
I just did that bit on the boat in addition to interviewing folks, but you actually got in a life raft because he said he survived a little more than a week with supplies out on a life raft. You actually got into one.
I got on a life raft like we were talking about earlier. You know know we wanted to show what his his lifeboat looked like and so we got an almost exact replica of the the lifeboat that that nathan was in and we had to get on the lifeboat life raft to to show what it looked like and i got in there and let me tell you i was in there for maybe 20 minutes and I was done.
It was hot. It was wet.
It was uncomfortable.

You know, the swells weren't even that bad. But yes, you still start to get a little queasy.
And Nathan reported there were 13-foot waves at some point. So that was another area that investigators looked to about why this story might have seemed suspicious.
when he was rescued a week later, Nathan seemed in pretty good health. He did not have extensive sun exposure.
He did not have, you know, water exposure from sitting in standing water. He didn't seem to be weak when he was trying to climb out of the boat.
He seemed relatively healthy. And, you know, there are survival experts who were deposed who said there is no way this would happen you know fbi coast guard investigators they all did not believe historian um just from my own experience being on that life raft for 20 minutes it was i was ready to get out i'm i like adventure i like doing this is what i live for kind of doing these these these interesting things.
And that was not fun. So it really gave me a very, you know, intimate insight into what his experience might have been like.
Kind of nerve wracking, too. I'm glad you didn't ask me to do that one.
Another intriguing part of this story is that we got a chance to include some sort of first time scene broadcast interviews with law enforcement. Right.
Nathan is recorded while he's talking to police. Tell folks how you managed to do that kind of thing, because that is what makes our stories, I think, interesting and special to see something that you haven't seen before.
Well, yes, getting police interviews or, you know, depositions, but especially police interviews are a really great way to take the viewer into the story. You get to see this person, whoever's being interviewed, reacting on the spot in sort of high pressure situations.
And the viewer can just decide what they think of it on the spot. In this case, Nathan is interviewed extensively by the Windsor police in relation to the murder of his grandfather, John Chakalos.
And the night John Chakalos was murdered, Nathan was meeting his mother for a different fishing trip. And he was an hour late meeting his mother.
And late at night. He was in the middle of the night.
Yeah, he was supposed to meet her at three. He didn't get there until 4, and he claims he got lost,

and he got lost on roads that he had been driving for years.

So you get to hear investigators question him about this

and see his reaction, and I would say he seems rather nervous.

Now, he's a teenage kid getting questions by police,

and again, we talked about his autism spectrum. So viewers can watch it and decide, does this seem credible? There's another really fascinating piece of video in a deposition in a subsequent lawsuit that his family, the Slayer lawsuit that this family brings against him.
And he ends up taking the fifth 81 times, which is, of course, his legal right. But it's interesting that he even could know to do that and to actually...
He was a very smart guy. He represented himself.
Pretty well. Himself in this lawsuit, he represented himself.
But yeah, I mean, 81 times taking the fifth, meaning he didn't want to answer to avoid incriminating himself. It just gives additional context and it lets you into the story and understand what was happening.
Let the viewer see. And you mentioned the Slayer lawsuit, and that is basically a Slayer petition means you can't profit from or you can't collect money after somebody has died.
Yes, it's a lawsuit saying you can't inherit money from someone who

you had a part in killing, basically. So Nathan's aunts bring this against him.
You know, the family

dynamics of this are... They're quite interesting.
I want to talk about that. But we're going to take

a break first, though. And when we come back, we're going to unpack this tangled web of family,

personal history, and drama at the heart of this story.

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We're back with the 2020 After Show. and Jonathan, the producer of the piece that we worked on together, is here.
This story isn't just about a murder investigation. It's about a very, not just fractured, I guess, dysfunctional family.
There are a lot of dynamics at work here. I thought that was so intriguing.
You and I started off by looking at the family tree. John Chakalos, this patriarch, this wealthy patriarch of this family who had been murdered, had four daughters.
One of them was Nathan's mom. That was just really interesting to find out how the money and how it affected the family and how there were fights within the family.
And Nathan's mom, Linda, butted heads with her father a lot over life and the way she was raising her son. She sure did.
You know, the same thing actually reminded me of the Succession family a little bit from the HBO show. John Choclos was worth about $40 million, maybe more.
He was a real estate developer, owned and operated nursing homes. And he spent a lot of money on his family.
And it seemed like there was constantly this sort of bickering and fighting for love and attention. And yeah, especially between Linda and John, they would fight over Nathan.
As I said, John was sort of grooming Nathan to possibly become a part of his business.

And he just doted on him as the first grandson. It actually came to blows at some point.
The police were called. Physical fight.
Physical fight. The police were called.
So just, you know, a very dynamic, tumultuous family. And then they would come back together.
And John Chakalos, he was telling his other, his nephew, that he wanted Nathan to repair things with his mother. Nathan and his mother would have a tumultuous relationship as well.
He was living in a trailer on her property and then eventually moved out. And these fishing trips they did were one of the real ways they bonded, one of the only ways they could connect.
And that she wanted to try to repair the relationship. Exactly.
I think they both did, but it was difficult. Yeah, a very tight-knit, we were told by them, a tight-knit Greek family, too.
One of the family members we actually got to meet was Charlene Gallagher, who was a younger sister to Linda. Let's hear an extended clip of that interview.
I got a call in the morning from our attorney. He was very solemn, and he had told me very respectfully that Nathan was gone, and he hung himself.
And I just cried. I cried, because once again, I'm picturing this little child.
It wasn't even a relief that we didn't have to go through the trial or anything like that. It was just sad because the whole situation, it was just so unnecessary.
Everything came back. His childhood, you know, the tough life he had, Linda, the tough life Linda had with him and, you know, just the, the tough life he had, Linda,

the tough life Linda had with him,

and just the battles between my dad and Linda and Nathan.

And it was all for naught.

No one came out with the outcome that anyone wanted. I was far more sad than I was relieved.
And it's still not over. You can hear the pain in her voice.
We should say that Nathan was awaiting trial when he wound up taking his own life. The clip kind of really brings home, I think, how devastating these events were for this family.
I mean, to have three family members.

Three different generations.

The grandfather, the mother, and Nathan all died.

And, you know, Charlene says it's not over.

And it really isn't for this family.

I think there's a lot of unhealed wounds.

Nathan's charges were dismissed.

And the John Chocolos case is still active. So no one's had any closure on that.
Also, John Chocolos' money is still working its way through probate court. So I think it's been difficult for this family to find closure and move on.
Chuck LaPena, who you interviewed, Deborah, is... The cousin of uh nathan exactly he's he's he's still he's still very angry one of my favorite parts of producing is just doing these interviews and you never know what you're going to get and so i arrived a little bit earlier the day you uh interviewed chuck la pena and i said can i can i take you out and just do a little drive and shoot some video with you? And he said, where would you like to go? And I said, well, is there anywhere you would want to go that would mean anything to you? And he said, well, why don't we go to the cemetery? Wow.
That's how that came about. That's how that.
And we do as much research and pre-interviewing as possible, but he had never mentioned that. And you certainly didn't want to presume to ask him to go to the cemetery.
It could be very painful. Yes, and so he drove us to his, well, his uncle's, John Chakalos.
It's the Chakalos plot. Nathan is buried there.
John Chakalos is buried there. And Linda is not buried there.
Well, they never found her body, but he wanted at least a stone to represent her. Right, and so he was upset, angry that her stone wasn't there,

but it was quite an honor to be invited into such an intimate moment.

Just the two of us drove there, and he allowed me to document him

paying respects to his family members, so that was a powerful moment for me.

Sometimes in these stories we do find moments that we aren't expecting.

And that's, I think to me on the human level,

that's what makes the work that we do so interesting.

And so rewarding in some ways,

even though it's a very sad story

when we're talking about true crime,

but rewarding to connect with a family member

and to hopefully maybe bring a little bit of lightness

to them just

for that moment to be able to share their story.

Right.

And I hope it was cathartic for him.

You know, sometimes he talked about how other family members are just sick of him talking

about this.

So I think it's nice just to have someone listen to you.

And I think it was completely cathartic for him.

Hear your story.

Exactly.

Well, John, JB, this was really great. It was wonderful.
It wasn't as bad as you thought it would be. No, I was nervous, but this was great.
You always make it easy. Now I know what it's like being interviewed by Deborah Roberts.
Well, you're always the one setting up these interviews, so it was such a pleasure to finally get a chance to talk with you about how we do all of this. Thanks for joining us.
Jonathan is a producer for 2020. That is our show.

Don't forget to tune in on Friday nights at nine

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The 2020 After Show is produced by Cameron Shurtavian

and Sasha Oslenian with Joseph Diaz,

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We had technical help this week from Trevor Hastings and Kevin Ryder.

Theme music by Evan Viola.

Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020.

Josh Cohen, the director of podcasting at ABC Audio.

Laura Mayer is the executive producer.

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