The After Show: Idaho Justice

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Hi there, everybody, and welcome to 2020 the After Show. I'm Deborah Roberts and today we are talking about a case that so many people have been talking about for a few years actually.

It is that horrific story out in Idaho. Four college students murdered in their off-campus home during the early morning hours.

We've been following the headlines over the course of the summer and really since this story began, Brian Koberger, as many of you know, was sentenced to life in prison.

And we're going to talk more about that later, pleading guilty to all charges in this case.

It was a story that was featured on 2020's episode called Idaho Justice, which you definitely want to watch if you haven't seen it already. And it's streaming on Disney Plus and Hulu.

ABC News correspondent Kana Whitworth has been following this story from really the very beginning as well as the podcast, King Road Killings.

She has been reporting and meeting people all connected to this story. And Kana, this is the first time you've come on the podcast with me, I think.
Welcome. Thank you.
It's a pleasure to be with you.

Yeah, good to have you.

Well, this is a story, you know, I mean, wow, it probably stretched you in all kinds of ways as a correspondent doing this because, you know, the tragedy and also just the glare of the story for so long, a well-known shocking case, four young lives cut short, all these young people stabbed to death.

And you were covering the story. We know there's a resolution in the case now.
We're going to get to that, but give me a sense of these young students and what it was like for you covering this story.

Yeah, I mean, you really start to learn a lot about these families, about these kids. and frankly about yourself in the process when you cover a story this closely for this many years.

These students students have become a part of my life too. I planted yellow and white tulips in my garden in honor of Ethan Chapin.
Whenever I see pink, I think of Madison Mogan. If there's a big,

you know, boastful laugh in the room, I think of Kayleigh Gonzalves. And man, anybody that can DJ, I think of Xander Carnoto, you know?

You really got to know their personalities, didn't you? Absolutely. And it stood out to me early on when Kaylee's sister said, they are all so much more than their last day.

It's really important to remember how these kids lived their lives.

And so throughout our coverage at ABC, we have really tried to make sure that the audience gets to know them for those reasons and that their names are the ones that ring true and that Brian Koberger's name is the one that sort of slips away.

Yeah, in the background. Well, you've done such a great job of that.

And then now, of course, you brought fresh reporting with visits with these family members and just really an opportunity for us to know these victims.

You also were the very first person to talk to the Moscow police chief, among other folks in this case. And tell me a little bit about what that was like.

Yeah, it takes a lot to build a relationship with people, especially in a town like Moscow. This is a small town in northern Idaho.
People live there because they want a quiet lifestyle.

They appreciate being secluded. So when the national media sort of pounced on Moscow, Idaho, it was a bit jarring.
And over these years, I've been able to build relationships.

And the, you know, the police chief at the time of the murders, James Fry, I was the first to be able to speak with him during the investigation and the first to speak with him after the sentencing as well.

It's taken an incredibly emotional toll on him. What I think you'll find in this 2020 episode, though, is also brand new interviews with investigators that led this investigation.

These are the ones with the boots on the ground, digging through the files, doing the interviews, doing that hard work. And they speak with us.

And so we heard from the FBI lead investigator, the Idaho State Police lead investigator, and the details that they reveal are really stunning about this investigation and about how they were able to find Brian Koberger when there were thousands upon thousands of tips pouring in during this nearly seven-week manhunt when the entire community was just afraid that perhaps this person would never get caught.

Boy, those investigators tell you now the kind of work that they were doing to make sure this community would find justice. We also hear from the friends of these victims.

These are the friends who were called that morning, the friends who were called before that 911 call was placed. They were the first to arrive.

And it's stunning because you hear from them the sort of panic that

they were dealing with while also having this idea that things don't happen. Nothing bad happens here.
This is in that little small town. Exactly.

And so, you know, we spoke with Hunter Johnson and Emily Alante. And Hunter Johnson was best friends with Ethan Chapin.
And he tells this story about.

you know, getting, hearing this call from Dylan Mortensen, one of the surviving roommates, to his girlfriend, Emily Alante, saying, like, hey, can you come over?

And he's like, there was something in her voice that made me just feel like I got to go. And he said, I threw on my slides and went.

And then you see the response video from Moscow Police, the first officer on scene, and you see Hunter Johnson in his sweatshirt, his shorts, and his slides. It all just really comes together.

In fact, a few weeks ago, the body camera footage of police talking to Dylan Mortens, and you just referenced that was released.

It's always so interesting when we see this kind of footage, when we're digging into these cases. And, you know, what were the big takeaways from that as far as you were concerned? Absolutely.

So when Officer Noons arrives on scene, he's the first one.

And when you're watching this episode, I would encourage everyone to keep in mind the fact that Officer Noones is about the same age as some of these kids.

And so he arrives on scene. And because it's a small town, they also know these kids, right? They've been to this house for noise complaints in the past.
There's relationships there.

And in a very calm manner, he starts this investigation. And I think what was the most clear to me from his body-worn video was the amount of confusion that was playing out.

You see these students gathered around the home, and he goes through the house and he very quickly finds Xana Cernodle and Ethan Chapin. And the tenor changes immediately.

And he goes back outside and he starts talking with Dylan Mortensen. And he has to eventually go upstairs to find Kaylee Gonzalves and Madison Mogan.

And I think it stands out because you realize nobody standing there in the parking lot was aware that Kaylee and Maddie were upstairs at that time. It was kind of like, we don't know where they are.

We're not sure. You know, it's about noon.

No one really was aware that they were there. And there's this startling confusion, and you hear Dylan, right in that moment, tell the story of seeing someone in the house.

And we've got a clip of that right now.

Alright,

describe the guy that you saw.

I don't think he was a little bit taller than me.

And

I couldn't really see much of him, but

I'm almost positive. He's wearing a soul-bye outfit.

And he had this mask that was just over his forehead and over his mouth and he didn't say anything to me like at all i just shut the door and locked it because i didn't know what to do

and what struck me was when she said i went downstairs to bethany's room and we went back to bed telling ourselves nothing ever happens in moscow

The idea that they're survivors, I mean, you know, that the, you know, these roommates were slain and then there are folks who are left behind.

I mean, this story just was unfolding in the most horrific way imaginable. And you, of course, were following it.
And we talked in the very beginning about there being a guilty plea now.

So, more information has been released. And, of course, we were able to include a lot of that in our 2020 episode.
We're going to come back.

Kena is going to tell us a little bit more about the details of this case and also more on where Brian Koberger is now. So, stay with us.

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We're back with Kana Whitworth, who has covered the Idaho college murders since this story first broke nearly three years ago. She was on the ground in Idaho the very day that this all happened.

And, you know, Kana, in your reporting, of course, in the very beginning, we didn't know what, I mean, everybody was trying to wrap their minds around the fact that these college students were killed in this little town.

But eventually, of course, we come to know more about Brian Koberger, who was initially a person of interest and, of course, was eventually charged in this case.

And he lived just about seven miles or so from the crime scene. After he was arrested, we started to learn a little bit more about him.
He was a teacher's assistant at Washington State University.

He was getting his PhD in criminology, of all things.

And you talked to people who knew him in the piece, which was just fascinating, the faculty and the students who some of them got a chill, you know, just sort of knowing him.

Talk about him a little bit and what you were able to learn and what surprised you. you.
Yeah,

we spoke with a police chief who was the police chief in Pullman and he's the police chief at Washington State and he was able to share a lot with us because he had initially interviewed Brian Koberger because Brian Koberger wanted to be an intern in the Pullman Police Department.

He wanted to conduct research in rural areas.

And it was a Zoom interview that they did and he said that he knew even over that that something was a little bit off, that he would not be able to connect with his team, team which he felt like was really important and so he was not chosen to intern there sort of went by the wayside he then Brian Koberger then arrives at Washington State and in the filings that we're getting now after the sentencing there's just story after story and they all have a similar tenor and tone that Brian Koberger was a bit awkward he was a bit standoffish he had sort of a deep gaze he made people

that he came across

He came across as the smartest guy in the room. Absolutely.
And he wanted people to know that.

That that was often the only time that he was really speaking or engaging was when he wanted to showcase his intelligence.

And generally there's this sort of off-putting feeling about him from cohorts, from professors.

And there was these stories about him sort of blocking the exit for some female cohorts and students.

he would sort of stand between them and the door making it just awkward for them to leave he was known as an incredibly hard grader and that was something that he sort of dangled out there for his dad when he started having trouble at the university he sort of told his dad well it's you know it's because I'm a really tough grader he sort of leaned into that and what really it came full circle when we talked to Chief Jenkins at Washington State again was

when Chief James Fry pulled him into the room and said, hey, we think we have a name. It's Brian Koberger.

Well, Chief Jenkins said the hair on the back of his neck just stood up because he said, I know that name. I interviewed him.

Here's his resume. Here's the information that I have.
And what you revealed too is that some of his colleagues thought that he would wind up in some kind of an issue.

Maybe not something as extreme as this, but they thought he would wind up in some kind of an issue.

Kana, while he was getting his PhD way across the country, he actually grew up in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania.

What did you learn about him and his upbringing and what kind of a life he had in Pennsylvania? Because he was captured on the way back home.

What we're told is that he lived, you know, a pretty average life and childhood in the Poconos.

His dad's a mechanic. His mom works with the school district.
He was the youngest of three. He had these two older sisters.
And that his life was relatively normal.

He struggled with some weight gain at one point and

he struggled with drugs, according to reports, at another point. And he then had this huge turnaround where all of a sudden he lost all this weight.

He was leaning heavily into boxing, things like that,

and his education. But he was at home.
all this time, right? Even when he was at DeSales getting his master's, he was still commuting. He was still living at home.

And so he wasn't having that kind of deep interaction with people until he moved all the way across the country to Washington State. It was the first time he was ever really away from his family.

And I think... Some of the most fascinating things that we're learning is about his habits through his cell phone.

When they analyzed his cell phone, they found that he had very few contacts in his phone. He interacted right with very few people.
And this really stood out to analysts was that he kept his parents'

names in his phone as mother and father. And

isn't that interesting? And that's how he would refer to them in texts. He would say things like, father, why isn't mother answering? Like that's how he would talk.

about his parents with whom he had nearly constant interaction with his parents every single day.

Everybody was so fascinated by this guy when he would come into the courtroom and for so long we would see him come in and out when there were hearings and so forth related to the upcoming trial.

And he almost seemed to be enjoying that limelight.

He seemed very comfortable, certainly, in the courtroom. There was a lot of attention paid to how he acted in the courtroom by everyone, by everyone watching.

And I think that he was certainly aware of that, his legal team certainly aware of that.

And it's fascinating, though, though, because you think about him being broadcast, right, all over the nation, frankly, all over the world.

And then when they dive in, they found like countless selfie photos, you know, pictures he had taken of himself, but then he never did anything with them. You know, he never posted them.

He never shared them. It was like he had taken these pictures, what, for himself? Yeah.

Well, you know, there were a lot of things that were revealed, really disturbing discoveries from investigators in this case.

And when we come back, we're going to talk more about not only that, but also, Kana, about the victims' families and how they react to the details that have been released.

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We're back now with Kano Whitworth, who has been covering the Idaho murders for some time now and our 2020 episode, of course, called Idaho Justice, which was just so fascinating.

You know, we didn't have the benefit of a trial because ultimately there was a plea here, so you didn't hear all the details, but there were a lot of gruesome and just difficult details that were actually being discovered and revealed.

And the family members of these kids had, you know, different feelings about some of these details. And that was a whole issue.

I mean, obviously for us, that was a big part of the coverage in the story and being sensitive to the families too, right? I think you're absolutely right.

And it's important that we all realize that every single family is going to grieve in their own unique way. And so I think it's important to not compare their reactions because they're not the same.

And we know that Kaylee Gonzalvez's family has really been out at the forefront. They've been the ones talking.

They've been the ones sort of fighting some battles with prosecutors and with detectives. They wanted to know everything.
They wanted all the information that they could get.

That was something that brought them some solace.

I sort of found myself leaning on the words of Olivia Gonzalez, Kaylee's Kaylee's sister, because she was really strong because she didn't want people to not know the depravity of the crime.

It was important to her that people were aware that her sister was stabbed some 34 times, many of those times in the head and face area. It's

the impact that this had on them as well as the family. They wanted people to know that grief and that pain, didn't they?

Yes.

And to think about a mother having to learn that about her daughter and, you know, sharing with you that Kaylee's mom, when the report came out that Kaylee was unrecognizable, I mean, that was really hard for Chrissy Gonzalez to read that.

And I think that they were frustrated because they were reading that at the same time that the media was reading it. They didn't have that information prior.

You know, they weren't given any kind of... exclusive information ahead of time.
But then, you know, other families like the Chapin family, you know,

they chose to be at the hearing when Brian Koberger changed his plea to guilty and they wanted to be there for Ethan. But when it came time for sentencing, you know, they wanted to.

They wanted nothing to do with it. Exactly.
They wanted to honor him in their own way.

And that is really important to them, too. And that's how they show their strength.
And so it's important to

really understand that every family, again, is different. And the Chapin family and the Mogan family would really like to put a stop to the release of these crime scene photos.

You know, to them, why do people need to see that? Cobra, for the longest time, of course, was steadfast, not guilty, not guilty.

And, you know, I think we were all just waiting to see how this case was going to play out.

You kind of thought he would never plead, and he ultimately did. He was facing the death penalty.
Now he is facing, what, multiple life sentences and

obviously will never get out of prison. What do you know about what has happened since his sentencing?

We were the first to be able to tour the Idaho Maximum Security Institution where he will spend the rest of his life. It's out in Cuna, Idaho.

And for those of you that are picturing Idaho with mountains and pine trees and water and snow, it is not that. I tell you what, it is flat and a lot of nothing out there.

And We went into this maximum security institution and there's all different levels, right, of where people people might stay. And he was in the most strict level.

So at this point, he's, you know, in a cell for 23 hours a day. When he's moved, he's moved in restraints.

Meals are, you know, regulated. We are told that if he does want to continue to adhere to his vegan diet, that that will be amenable.
And so

they

you know, it's a very minimalistic lifestyle.

But when we went to tour it to show you the company he's keeping, when I signed my name on that guest book, I signed it right underneath people who had gone to see a Chad Day Bell. Oh, wow.

Wow. Another notorious convicted murderer.

We've talked about that story a lot, too.

Kohlberger famously hasn't really said anything. We haven't heard anything publicly from him.
Do you think he's going to want to tell his story at some point?

Do you think you may wind up sitting across from him in prison at some point? I tell you, I ask myself that question all the time.

I have a lot of questions for him. That's for sure.

I feel like

from all the analysis that's been done on him, that at some point he is going to want to tell his story.

I go back to some of his homework, his writing in schools, and the fact that he changed his plea.

And when you look look at some of his studies in crime, he would say things like: false guilty pleas manifest due to a lack of judicial oversight and plea deals that seem to compel defendants to enter them.

That's something that he wrote. And he also said: if defendants fail to accept a plea bargain, prosecutors will pursue the strictest charges.

And we know that prosecutors were pursuing the death penalty there in Idaho. They weren't backing down from that.
And that's what got taken off the table in order for him to change his plea.

You know, this story has been so captivating, and you reported it, you know, so, so well. I mean, I hate to say beautifully, but you did tell such a beautiful story about these lives.

And I'd like to end on the note of talking about these four young people. What were their aspirations? And, you know, as you said, they were so much more than the way they died.

What did the world lose in these four lives? Yeah.

I'll start with Ethan. Ethan was the eldest of triplets

and

he

was just that bright light in every room.

And you know, he's he's tall and strong and big and athletic. He had a really bright future ahead of him.
And he was also sort of the leader for his siblings, for his siblings Hunter and Maisie.

They looked up to him tremendously.

And

when we sat with his family, you know, you see Hunter Chabin becoming his own man and you see Maisie becoming her own woman, but they will live the rest of their lives without their big brother and a piece of them will always, always be missing.

Missing,

yeah.

Ethan's story is

really a heartbreaking loss and the way that his parents have carried on his legacy has been beautiful. And so because of them, they have created this scholarship in his name.

And it has gained in popularity to the point that a student will now go to the University of Idaho in the name of Ethan Chapin in perpetuity. Oh my gosh, that's amazing.

Isn't that an incredible legacy? And that's so important to his family.

And, you know, all the kids have foundations like that, that their parents really want to help the next generation. There's the Maddie Mae Foundation as well.
And she was just this sweetest

bundle of joy you could ever imagine and it was seems like everybody you talk to has that soft spot in their heart for Maddie Mae.

Yeah. And, you know, Kayleigh Gonzalez already had a job.
She was getting ready to move. She had a job.
She was going just like her dad taught her.

He wanted her in college prep and she was ready to go. She just bought her new car and she was going to start her whole new life.

And, you know, on the flip side of that, Xana Cernodel was just exploring her life in college.

And, you know, she had gained a lot of independence and had done a lot of really amazing things as a young adult.

And this is just a tremendous and gutting loss, I think, to the university, but most importantly, to these families that will never be made whole. Yeah, never be the same.

But I have to tell you, you really did a terrific job in just telling their stories and shining a bright light on these young people.

Kana, it was such a pleasure to get a chance chance to catch up with you. I hope we'll see each other on the same coast one of these days.
Well, all of that means a lot.

I certainly am an admirer of yours, so I hope so too. Thank you so much for being with us today.
That does it for us today on The After Show. Kana, we'll continue to look for this story.

I'm sure you'll have updates, but you can stream 2020's episode Idaho Justice Now on Disney Plus and Hulu.

The 2020 After Show is produced by Susie Liu, Sasha Aslanian, Emily Schutz, Nora Ritchie, and Trevor Hastings of ABC Audio, with Sean Dooley, Brian Mazurski, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020.

Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020.
Josh Cohen, the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.

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