Former President of Chile Michelle Bachelet: Leading with Integrity, Truth, and Empathy (#212)

Speaker 1 At a time when we need leadership more than ever, many leaders around the world today are stymied. Their governments are ineffective and their people are unhappy.

Speaker 1 What does outstanding leadership look like and what does it take?

Speaker 1 Hi everyone, I'm Lynn Toman and this is Three Takeaways. On Three Takeaways, I talk with some of the world's best thinkers, business leaders, writers, politicians, newsmakers, and scientists.

Speaker 1 Each episode ends with three key takeaways to help us understand the world and maybe even ourselves a little better.

Speaker 1 My guest today is Michelle Bachelet, former two-term president of Chile. She is one of the most successful leaders of any country in the world.

Speaker 1 As president, she implemented a basic pension that benefited the country's poorest people, as well as health care and education reforms.

Speaker 1 And despite leading a coalition government, she was able to execute on her bold promises.

Speaker 1 Chile flourished under her leadership, and at the end of her first term as president, she had an unprecedented approval rating of 84%.

Speaker 1 After serving as Chile's president for two terms, she then served as United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. President Fachelet is remarkable.

Speaker 1 Her father was imprisoned, tortured, and died opposing General Augusto Pinochet, who gained power in a coup d'état that ended Chile's democracy.

Speaker 1 She and her mother were also imprisoned, interrogated, tortured, and then they were exiled. After the fall of General Pinochet, she fought for the return of democracy to Chile.

Speaker 1 In 2000, she was appointed Minister of Health where, and I quote, she was given the challenging task of eliminating the waiting lists in the overburdened public hospital system within the first administration's 100 days.

Speaker 1 Although she was successful in reducing the waiting lists by 90%,

Speaker 1 she was unable to completely eliminate them, unquote. 90% is outstanding.

Speaker 1 Then in 2002, she was appointed Minister of National Defense, where she fostered reconciliation between the military and the victims of General Pinochet's dictatorship.

Speaker 1 Due to Michelle Bachelet's soaring popularity, she was then chosen as the Socialist Party's candidate for the president.

Speaker 1 I am looking forward to finding out from President Bachelet what it takes to be an outstanding leader and what challenges and opportunities she sees ahead.

Speaker 1 Welcome, President Bachelet, and thanks so much for joining three takeaways today.

Speaker 2 Eileen, great to be with you here.

Speaker 1 It is my pleasure and honor. Thank you.

Speaker 1 How did the horrific treatment of your family by the Pinochet government influence you?

Speaker 2 Well, I think the treatment that the Pinochet regime did, not only my family, but also many families in Chile, convinced me.

Speaker 2 I mean, first of all, of course, I had rage, anger, but Afterwards, I realized the importance of lessons learned and identify what we could do in a country to never, never, any generation leave the same kind of horrific issues that we had to see.

Speaker 2 So I think what it did is strengthen, I would say, my commitment to democracy and to human rights.

Speaker 1 You achieved remarkable reforms in Chile. Can you talk about a few of your reforms and how you were able to achieve them?

Speaker 2 When I was a candidate, we analyzed which were the challenges of Chile and we identified some pending questions or issues that needed to be improved.

Speaker 2 So that's why we decided to improve the health system, protect the social protection system, in particular with how we protected the childhood and adolescent with a program that was called Chile grows with you.

Speaker 2 It means you grow well, Phile will grow well as well. And also we identified that many people had almost no pensions and very low pensions.

Speaker 2 So we also did a pension system reform, not perfect, but in a way of increasing the number of people who will be able to receive a pension. So, we increased like 1.6 million people at the time.

Speaker 2 We also did what I think that was very important: that we understood that, in able to maintain certain provision of services, of quality services, etc., we needed permanent revenues for permanent costs.

Speaker 2 So, we did a fiscal system reform. It was not easy.
All of this reform had, as you can imagine, imagine, all the discussions and debate within society and within different interest groups.

Speaker 2 But fortunately, I had majority in Congress. So we tried to build unity in terms of these essential issues so we could approve them in the parliament.

Speaker 2 Of course, we did a lot of other reforms, but I will stay there so we can talk a little bit longer.

Speaker 1 Many other politicians are much more short-term oriented.

Speaker 1 For example, one thing you did which was unique is you kept the revenues from Chile's natural resources, I think it was copper mining, and you invested them in a fund that you kept as opposed to spending it all in the short term.

Speaker 1 Can you talk about that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, we learned that from the Norwegian experience, that they did that with the fish resources incomes.

Speaker 2 And we did a system that meant that we still had a certain amount of budget to improve social benefits for people who needed them.

Speaker 2 But on the other hand, we say how we decouple the economy with the social services. In which term, if the economy goes wrong, it cannot be that we have to stop all those benefits from continuing.

Speaker 2 So, what we did, we created this fund that helped us because, at the end of my first government, we had the international economic crisis.

Speaker 2 And usually, when there are crises, the poorest are the ones who are the ones hit harder.

Speaker 2 So, what we could do is maintain, not only maintain social protection benefits that we have established already, but also we can have a very strong, I would say, package of measures to respond to the unemployment and all the consequences of the financial crisis.

Speaker 2 So I think this is a very long-term policy that is very useful.

Speaker 2 We need to maintain programs and policies that even if the economy is not doing so well, we can maintain it and support the ones who are being left behind.

Speaker 1 What do you think has made you so successful as a health minister, as defense minister, and then as president of Chile?

Speaker 2 Well, I think the most important is to work hard, to put people in the center of your policies, and that you adapt your systems to people and not people have to adapt and you have to understand.

Speaker 2 And you need to speak with the truth and try to look for exactly what the adequate response.

Speaker 2 And maybe being a doctor, having been a doctor where you have to think hard, look for evidence and try to look deep at issues, not only think of quick, easy, populistic solutions that will solve a problem for a couple of minutes, but not afterwards, I think that has also helped me.

Speaker 2 And let me give you the example of the waiting list. In that case, what we did, we sent people every day to the different health facilities to understand why those waiting lists were there.

Speaker 2 So when we identified, made a clear diagnosis of what was happening, we could have a plan with a budget that we could really solve the issue.

Speaker 2 I mean, for a while, because there were some, it was 90% and I told the president, look, this is my resignation because I haven't got 100%.

Speaker 2 But the thing is that some health facilities were built for 30,000 people and now 60,000 people are going there. So it's impossible.
So we need to find solutions in the short, medium, and long term.

Speaker 2 But we did our best and it improved. But as I said, you need to also talk to the people, explain what you're doing.
And when you're not able to get something, for example, you have an economic crisis.

Speaker 2 So, what you wanted to do is not possible, you have to speak to the people the truth and explain to them, I wanted to do this, I couldn't do it because of this and this reason.

Speaker 2 And people usually understand that as well.

Speaker 1 You call yourself a strategic optimist. What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 It's a little bit a joke that I make to myself because sometimes the reality in the current moment seems so gloomy, so bad, but you know that better times will come.

Speaker 2 So that's why I differentiate between strategic optimism and tactic optimism. Because tactic is more the thing you're going to deal now.

Speaker 2 But also because I try always to be strategic, because I feel that to be a president or a minister is a great responsibility, but also gives you the great opportunity.

Speaker 2 to do things that will benefit the country for long years, not only for the period where you are in that position.

Speaker 1 I think think that's one way in which you are very unique because you look for the long-term benefits to Chileans, whereas many politicians are looking to their own short-term self-interest.

Speaker 2 That probably because I've never been looking for re-election.

Speaker 2 And maybe it also helps that in my country you cannot be re-elected immediately.

Speaker 2 So if maybe some people like parliamentarians that can be re-elected immediately, I think the incentive to do things on the short-term and not strategic, unfortunately, is very high.

Speaker 1 Your country's democracy died with a coup d'état back in 1973. What are the lessons from Chile's loss of democracy?

Speaker 2 Well, I feel that the coup d'état was a failure of politics and politicians. They were not able to get into an agreement that over any differences between them, we needed to protect democracy.

Speaker 2 and that we could get into an agreement that maybe was not perfect for every side, but that everybody can live with it. And that was not possible.

Speaker 2 So, for me, the lessons more important were the unity of democratic forces is always fundamental.

Speaker 2 We can sometimes compromise on something that is not 100% what you want, but if that can defend them, of course, nothing that is completely against your values and principles, but I mean, you can ask for a little bit less ambitious possibility and understand that the most important thing is a dialogue and to try to get into agreements and negotiate agreements with democratic forces to ensure that this kind of situation will never live in the country again.

Speaker 2 For me, it was the failure of politicians and politics, what happened to the coup d'état.

Speaker 1 Yes. How did Chile recover its democracy after those 20, almost 20 years of dictatorship?

Speaker 2 What happened is that even though we were not able before the coup d'état to be united, the terrible things that many people lived, many people had to go to exile, many people were killed or in prison for a long time, people realized the importance of coming back to a democratic period, negotiate among all the democratic forces who could be the first candidate as a presidency.

Speaker 2 And I think it was the unity of the democratic forces that united on what we could agree. That was the main objective.

Speaker 2 to unite all the opposition to the dictatorship on what you all could live with it and could agree with it. And it was how we recovered democracy, democratic institutions, and human rights.

Speaker 1 How do you see democracy?

Speaker 2 Well, I think that democracy is the best system that we have. It's not perfect, but at least it has its own mechanism to improve when there are problems and challenges.

Speaker 2 But we need to continue strengthening democratic values everywhere.

Speaker 2 at schools, at parliament, in the society, because democracy, even though many times we take it for granted, I have learned in life we cannot take it for granted.

Speaker 2 We have to ensure that this is like the people embodies democratic values in reality, not only in speech. So I see democracy with some perils.

Speaker 2 And I think we need to work hard on trying to ensure that democracy is worldwide defended and protected.

Speaker 1 And do you think democracy needs to do better at providing opportunities for more people?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think one of the problems of democracy in the world is that it's not delivering.

Speaker 2 First of all, many candidates, democratic candidates, they promise things sometimes they know they're not going to be able to achieve.

Speaker 2 And I think this is a real mistake because you need to ensure that people can trust the democratic institutions and politicians.

Speaker 2 So you have to promise that you are really committed to deliver on all those issues. As I mentioned before, and democracy is not delivering on the promises.

Speaker 2 So the people is really disappointed of democracy and of the political system. Democracy is also people's participation.
It's not only about electing.

Speaker 2 It's about how people can be part of the decision-making processes, not only once every four years, but in issues that affect them, impact them directly.

Speaker 2 It can be like participation in local levels, in different levels. So I think we need to strengthen democracy clearly.

Speaker 1 What do you think that the most important challenges are now for country leaders and governments?

Speaker 2 Probably the same same challenges as before.

Speaker 2 On one hand, in terms of ensuring a democratic system that works, in terms of dealing with the SDGs, in terms of ending poverty, hunger, improve gender equality, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 2 In terms of looking at how they can do the things they want to do, but without fiscal space. I think this is something that's always there.

Speaker 2 but I hope the international financial institutions are looking for supporting this kind of things.

Speaker 2 But I also believe that one of the main challenges is that they can contribute to the people to believe in leaders, to believe in politics, to believe that who they elect can really represent their demands, their aspirations.

Speaker 2 Of course, there are atypical economic challenges. But the other main challenge, I believe, is that we are dealing with global challenges.

Speaker 2 And no country by itself is going to solve these global challenges.

Speaker 2 And if we don't understand the importance of multilateral institutions and multilateral community, community, we're not going to solve it.

Speaker 2 And one of the main issues is that we see a multilateral system that's been weakened.

Speaker 2 And on the other hand, we see issues like the pandemia in the past, but then the triple planetary crisis of climate change, pollution and loss of biodiversity, was really going to affect us and all countries.

Speaker 2 And it's interconnected. Many of the challenges are all interconnected.
And if we don't deal with them together, we're not going to achieve the results that we need.

Speaker 2 And that is, I think, one of the biggest threats for humanity before i ask for the three takeaways you'd like to leave the audience with today is there anything else you'd like to mention that you haven't already talked about i believe that one important thing is empathetic leadership i always say that you have to put yourself in the shoes of the people who will be impacted by the decision how they experience this and how they will take it.

Speaker 2 First of all, to think on the impacts of what you are going to do, because sometimes in the book sounds very good, but in reality not. So that's why you need the people to be part of the solutions.

Speaker 2 And that's something that I really think is really important.

Speaker 1 And what are the three takeaways that you would like to leave the audience with today?

Speaker 2 That as leaders, we have to put the people at first and at the center.

Speaker 2 that this will help you put the best interest of the people who will be affected by your decisions above all other considerations and will help you define your priorities.

Speaker 2 The second is that gender equality is the only way to make a more sustainable and just world for everyone and not just for half our population.

Speaker 2 And no country will be able to meet the challenges if it includes half of the population.

Speaker 2 And also, I believe that women's political participation could be an opportunity to respond to this sort of gloomy look at politics. Because I once said that if one woman

Speaker 2 enters in the political force and the party, she will change. But if many women, maybe politics change.
Maybe it's a green, but

Speaker 2 I still want to give an opportunity to that.

Speaker 2 And the third is we have to defend a democracy always and everywhere. It's not a perfect system, but it's definitely the best system that we have.

Speaker 1 Thank you, President Dachele. Thank you for your time today and for your leadership.

Speaker 2 Thank you, Lynn. All the best.
Good to see you.

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Speaker 1 You can also follow us on LinkedIn, X, Instagram, and Facebook. I'm Lynn Toman, and this is Three Takeaways.
Thanks for listening.