Prologue Presents: Celebrity Book Club on Johnnie Cochran

these words.

If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

Hey everyone, this is Leon from Prologue Projects.

There's no new episode of 5-4 today, but I am invading the feed to share with you an episode of another Prologue show, Celebrity Book Club with Stephen and Lily.

I freaking love this podcast.

I walk around my neighborhood, my dog, drinking my liquid IV, and I just laugh out loud like an idiot the whole time.

Every week, comedians and lifelong friends Stephen Phillips Horst and Lily Murata talk about a different celebrity memoir, and in the process, they get personal about their own crazy lives.

The episode you're about to hear is about Johnny Cochran's journey to justice.

Stephen and Lily chose it specially for you guys, so get ready for lots of jokes about the law.

I really think you're gonna love it.

If you do, subscribe to Celebrity Book Club with Stephen and Lily wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks for checking it out.

Who's that knocking at the door?

It's all your friends, you filthy whore.

Your husband's gone, and we've got books and a bottle of wine to kill.

It's Hollywood.

It's books.

It's gossip.

I'm shook.

It's memoirs.

It's martinis.

It's studio 54.

Celebrity book club.

Come read it while it's hot.

Celebrity book club.

Tell your secrets, we won't talk.

Celebrity book club.

No boys are allowed.

Celebrity book club.

Say it loud and proud.

Celebrity book club.

Buzz me in.

I brought the Cuervo.

Hey, best friend.

Oh, my God.

Hey, Lily Murata.

Hey, Stephen Phillips Horse.

What another thrill to be with you here on this Monday afternoon, recording another episode of our podcast, Celebrity Book Club.

Celebrity Book Club, where what is it we do?

Oh yeah, we talk about celebrity memoirs.

Hell yes.

Which means we also read celebrity memoirs.

Exactly.

Oh, we read books.

I want to give a quick shout out to our listeners and also listeners of another podcast that might be known as 5-4.

They're basically our label mates.

I've never had a label made.

They're also Free Dispatch Prologue Projects, which is just a fucking sick-ass podcast production company based out of Brooklyn, but has a lot of international influences as well.

But we just want to say hi to you guys.

Thank you so much.

We know that it's a classic one of those when Apple put that YouTube album on everyone's phone kind of vibes.

So sorry if you're triggered by that but stick around stay along for the ride we think you'll like it because this week's episode is going to be right up your legal alley oh yeah you've just been picked for jury duty because

this war dear is over or it's actually just beginning

yeah report yourself to the downtown criminal justice court center because

uh senator i don't object

because today we're talking about the only lawyer i know of besides your mother.

My mother, not my mother.

Your mother, not my mother.

No, no, no.

Besides your mother and some other lawyers, we're talking about Johnny Cochran Jr.

Esquire.

Yeah.

I'm sure he has many honorary doctorates as well.

His book is called Journey to Justice.

When I was a kid, I thought...

that all lawyers were women.

Fabulous.

Because your she-boss mother was

lawyer was a mom, or she was.

my lawyer was randomly this mom when I was.

Sorry, guys, we're having an absolute case of the Mondays today.

And we've never talked about this on the pod, and producer Meg kind of really encouraged me to tell our listeners that I'm kind of out of it today because I'm on my.

Oh, yeah.

It's embarrassing, but

period.

Fuck yes.

Yeah, I get it.

I know.

Manipulate, and we shouldn't be ashamed.

No.

Is it the classic day one?

It's very day one vibes.

So it's very just like, oh, give me Haagen Daws.

Like cramps.

I'm wearing sweatpants.

I didn't even bind today to pod.

So let me guess the back of your car looks like OJ's Bronco.

From the socks to the sweatshirt.

No, me, because I'm always like so forgetting I have my period every month.

So I'm always like bleeding everywhere.

And then my girlfriend would be like, okay, so the bathroom is a full murder scene.

And then I'm being so LAPD and cleaning up the crime scene badly.

And being just like, or no, she's like so firm in and she's like planting a bloody tampon, but it's like unopened.

Oh, to blame me.

Yeah.

And then, no, the blood is everywhere.

And I'm like, not mine.

So the blood is the glove.

Really trying to make this

classic.

Well, this is the classic murger trope sand-appet, which she's like, if men had periods, like every bachelor's department would look like a crime scene.

And it's like, I feel like actually, if I did have my period, that I would be pretty regimented about it.

Well, I think

sometimes.

I think there was a change within you

where I feel like when you lived like in your apartment before this, you were like much more like sloppy boots.

And then when you got your nice apartment, you just like started becoming a little bit more of a clean freak.

Yeah.

And so I wonder.

You have something to preserve.

Exactly to care about.

So I feel like you're like, oh, whatever.

Like, you know, I care on this side.

I'm kind kind of free bleeding like on vacation, but like at my apartment being pretty conscious about sheets and stuff.

Well, free bleeding is just when you don't put a tampon in.

So I don't think on vacation you would just be like, no tampons in your like sarongs in Europe.

Just like I don't know.

I would be like sarong on in Europe.

With massive bloodstain, no tampon, just bleeding everywhere.

I mean, we're kind of rubbing up against like the idea here that I don't really know what a period is.

What a period and how much blood is there is and when it happens.

Oh, and not to bring up middle school again or whatever, but I remember one of our first conversations was you were like really asking me, like, so what's the deal with the period?

And I guess.

I guess I should have taken notes or something.

I don't know.

And clearly, I'm not really the one to ask because I still like can't get really a hold of it.

Okay, well, I forgive you for whatever you're experiencing today because we all come here with our own personal experiences.

And

very much like the legal system.

Everyone comes from different backgrounds and should be treated fairly.

And in America,

supposedly, you're innocent.

Until proven guilty.

But in this Johnny Cochran book, I think he really shows that that ain't true.

No.

Well, and he shows really the corruption.

Yeah, America, I don't know if you guys knew this, but yeah, America be pretty corrupt.

Yeah, it's fucked up.

And the police, they're always right.

They suck.

Can I say that?

No, you can.

Just before we kind of get on this book, like, you know, I'm sure maybe the five to four listeners, they maybe do read a lot.

Not saying that our club kids don't read a lot, but this was, um, it was a long book, yet it was also small print.

As you said, John Grisham style.

Yeah.

No, when I got this book in the mail, I was just like, am I at the supermarket where they have all the mystery novels?

Because this is thick and it's dense and the like font is small and close together.

The spacing is

like, I feel like the Shania book was also 400 pages, but the density, I mean, bring your glasses to work day.

Yeah.

All lamps on.

No detail on Spared.

i mean he's a lawyer no i has a legal moment of the detail in this book and that's really important but like you know there's there's a good like 130 pages on the oj case one and you know right of course that's the star but you know not even to jump ahead to the oj stuff but his detail is so amazing that you know i felt he's very our podcast and like our vibe because yeah he's very 90s and i guess he's like in 90s he loves a big glass of cabernet and he owned a supper club which right and he like talks about his renovation and just like his home gym and just like oh, and when he says that, like, he's like, Yeah, and we redid our LA mansion in classic 90s modernist style with clean lines, clean spaces and clean lines, and a home gym.

And I did see my trainer four days a week, and I was actually with my trainer when I got the call about OJ.

And he's like, and usually that was my kind of my spa, you know, where I didn't hear the phone calls when I was in my soaring, clear, gorgeous gym.

It does sound like such a dreamhouse.

Like, I feel like it has a lot of, well, we should maybe talk about this.

Yeah, we'll talk about this later, but so basically, he's born, you know, little bio on him.

He was so classic human style.

He was born.

Just to really give you the loado on Johnny Crocher.

I was going to say he was born at the south, but yeah, no, I mean, born vibes.

Yeah, fully birthed.

In the 30s.

So this was Jim Crow, Louisiana.

Streveport.

We were talking South, South.

Sea South South.

You know, his father, like...

His father sold insurance.

Yeah, and that was like, and she talks about insurance was like one of the main like middle-class available job for like black men at the time.

Like either could be a pastor or I feel like could you go to the military?

Could you even go to the military at that point?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I guess this was before the GI build.

So it was like before even pre-World War II.

Yeah, pre-World War II.

So he was too young for World War I.

Right.

Do you wish you could have fought and okay, question?

Just wait, Dream War.

Dream War to fight in.

Oh, I mean, well, obviously, like, this is the Assassin's Grade talking, but ancient Greece, I mean, Sparta.

They, they actually required you to have sex with your coworkers, the male soldiers.

So they had to fight.

Yeah, because it bonded them.

Oh, is that true?

I mean, it was incredible.

Okay, it was in it was like bond and yeah, it was like, yes, men are men and men should be with other men.

So it was kind of the golf of that day, you know, if you want to make a business deal, oh, go play golf.

And then it was and then at the clubhouse, we all know what's happening.

Go fuck.

Those golf shirts come off.

Oh, really?

That dry fit.

That dry fit.

Nike polo.

It's not so dry anymore.

I feel like Johnny Cochrane, he's very, I mean, his style, which also we'll get into.

gorgeous style.

He was like, I had an amazing style from like, he made his money, you know, his parents made, you know, every Sunday, head to toe.

Yeah.

I mean, they're in church for three hours and like everyone is in their church best and in suits.

And

he was just like, I was like finding the best ties I could and the best button downs.

And he's like, so there's that picture when he's like in the school photo when he's 12 and he's already got suspenders on.

Oh, I know.

I feel like we've talked about this.

And I feel like 90s was like high time for suspenders.

Oh, we talked about your desire to wear.

My desire to wear suspenders.

Okay, so later, just to jump, when he picks the jury for OJ,

he was like, I know this is irrational, but he says, I will not pick a juror who wears string ties, which I assume means bolos.

Oh, well, just assume they're gonna be like southern white.

Right, I guess it's rednecks.

Redneck, yeah.

So who's wearing bolo ties to their voir dire?

Am I using the term voir dire right?

What's a voire deur?

It is a legal term.

Oh, okay.

Stephanie Phillips Horst, Esquire.

Esquire.

And it happens when,

in French, voir means to see and deer means to speak.

Voir deer.

Right.

So it's kind of like you're seeing people speak.

So I guess that's kind of all court is varied at because there's a visual element to it.

But it happens, I think, before the trial starts.

The O.J.

Simpson trial was the first big trial that was allowed to be televised.

So that is very void dear.

Well, and yet, though, he talks about the Deadwiler trial in the 60s was like that the like coroner's inquest was televised.

I feel like there was televised stuff.

And the whole, wasn't the whole like Black Panther trial like heavily covered by the media?

Well, it was covered, but I mean,

was it like the actual proceedings every day?

This was, yeah, the OJ trial was the first thing Like you could watch whatever.

It was the birth of 90s all-day TV.

Right.

You could just

invented like around the time of the Gulf War.

And that's like when society really started going downhill.

24-hour news cycle became entertainment.

Let's talk about it.

Yeah, I mean, well, okay, we keep saying, let's not talk about the OJ trial, but I think I guess let's just talk about the OJ trial.

So back to my childhood.

I remember it so clearly the day that before the verdict came out, the headline of the Boston Globe Globe was, and the verdict is, dot, dot, dot.

And then we all found out.

And I remember being at school and like my nanny like picking me up in the Ford Explorer and being like, not guilty.

And then the next day, the headline on the Boston Globe was not guilty.

It was a two-day headline, which was like another, I think, real milestone in journalism.

Well, it's also of that time where it's like, when I think about like our childhood in the news, it was just Monica O.J.

It was Monica O.J.

and Nancy Kirick and Tanya Harding.

Those three things.

I remember distinctly, so I don't, I didn't like follow the trial so much because we were, we were so young.

In 1994, I would have been negative three years old.

Totally, negative 30 pounds.

I do remember being in third grade and I remember it being announced.

And I, I feel like there was a big reaction from all the nine-year-olds, but I truly cannot remember if everyone was like pro or

I remember, even at that age, knowing to myself, I was just like, I thought he did it and I wanted him to get acquitted because I didn't want people to get in trouble for things.

And I like deeply didn't want people to get in trouble.

And I was just like, I know that he did it, but I just feel like, okay, he already did it.

And we've had this whole trial.

Like, I think he should just get let off because jail is bad and like you shouldn't send people there.

And I also just like personally didn't like getting in trouble and I didn't think anyone should get in trouble.

Of course, you're like, I'm not trying to go to jail.

So, OJ.

Yeah.

And now it's like that.

And yes, and I had probably a lot of internalized shame as like a gay child.

And so like you're just kind of looking at anyone who has been had the finger pointed at them by society and feeling this sympathy for them and feeling, you know,

that you relate to that.

And again, I was also just like always worried about getting in trouble for stuff.

So it was just like, I feel like him not getting in trouble is good.

You know, what's good for the gander is good for the goose sort of thing.

But that also makes sense of like watching this trial for so long, you're good that you're kind of like, okay, we did this.

Yes.

Yeah.

Exactly.

No, it's just like, you know, with the whole, I mean, it's like Trump and the whole impeachment.

I'm just like,

are we still doing this?

Let's move on to another.

Can we move on?

Let's get another, you know, it's just like, we already got the new president.

Like, let's wrap this up.

It's really insane that it's kind of like our childhood was the OJ trial.

And then, you know, and then the rest of our lives, we've just been watching the Kardashians.

It's just one long story.

It's one long storyline.

Well, okay, so, I mean, did you watch the American horror story?

Yeah, that's where I was like kind of wrapping up on the thought.

So watch the American Horror Story where they have phenomenal.

So good.

I will say.

So good.

And also, in this book, so Johnny Cochrane, I remembered how bad after watching that I felt for Marsha Cross.

Yeah, and then he talks about it.

He's like, He was like kind of saying that they're, I mean, also, this is his memoir, so he's going to make himself look good.

Obviously, he was like, He was making it sound like they were like good friends.

He also revealed that basically she was fucking her co-person, which is revealed.

I feel like they almost kiss on the show, but then she's like, She's like, Oh, I'm so busy, and I have so many binders.

I'm like, it's too late, and I'm ruffled and the the perm that she gets.

Yeah.

And she was just like lambasted for her perm.

So just to give a little background.

So Johnny Cochran marries very young and he's like not in love, but he's like, oh, so I did the right thing.

I mean, he's very like, and I am a man of honor and I did the right thing.

The thing he said he didn't beat his wife was a little like, no one asked.

He's like, and I would never strike my wife.

And you're like, okay.

Didn't say you did.

And then you went ahead and three times, you're like, and again, I didn't strike her.

Well, that was a little sus.

He's like, oh, well, she wanted $75 a week for clothes.

Oh, clothing budget?

Yeah.

And I was like, fabulous.

And he's like, and I only made $150 a week.

He made $152.

No, she went at $75 a month and he made $152 a week.

Carried the two.

So Carrie the two.

So he's making $600 a month.

So $75.

That's a lot.

I mean, I don't know.

That's like, that's maybe 12% of his overall budget goes to clothing, which as it should.

Yeah.

And his dad agreed with the wife.

He was like, well, you got to keep her dressed.

It's a little thing she wants.

That's because it's meaningful to her.

You know, it wasn't the fact that like, oh, it's clothing frivolous.

It's like, well, you know, she could have said, oh, like you

taking on all these cases is frivolous.

Right.

Well, obviously, he was probably going out and getting gorgeous ties.

Anyway, they get divorced.

And then she, like, during the OJ trial, like talks to the tabloids and like goes on shows to talk about Joni Cochrane, as does like his other ex.

Okay, wait.

So the other ex was that woke secretary, Patty, who stopped him in the hall and and was just like, they're all like racist at this like building where you're trying to get an office, but like, I think that it's bad.

And like, just know that I support you.

Right, which was fabulous.

And then, like, months later, he was like, and then Patty and I were bonding over our struggling marriages.

And the relationship did go ahead and become more than cordial.

I mean, I love how formal he talks about sex.

And he's like, and we got to know each other.

And then we got to know each other even more.

And then, after we really got to know each other, she did bear my child.

He is a Christian, yeah, very Christian.

He loves his mother, yeah, it does feel like his mother was like always getting sick, and he was always like making banners for her, like when she came home.

And like, he went to his mother's like crypt grave to ask her if he should take on OJ.

And she said yes, and she said yes, yeah.

I mean, he really kind of hems and haws about that for a whole week, and then finally decides to take it on, which is which is kind of insane because they're just like you're like a hot shot lawyer you a you like take on every case like especially where you think that justice has not been done or the police are wrong or a black man has been like you know well he said at some point unduly accused his and this would make you so famous well why wouldn't you do this you obviously i mean i think he was playing out the drama yeah for the book okay yeah i do feel like There was a lot of times when he reminded me of another Cochrane-like sounding person, Barbara Corcoran.

Because he is very just like, you need your employees to like you, go to the city, like appearances matter, like get the right suit, have the office Christmas party, like celebrate your secretaries.

No, he's always also like, there's so many photos in this small Grisham large book

that are like hand.

Grisham size, but it's a lot of punch.

So where he's like always like having Christmas parties for like all of his like jurors, which I'm like, is that legal?

Legal heads right to the market.

Wait, legal eagles, please sound off in the comments because this actually was so confusing to me.

After he like wins a trial and the defense gets off, he invites the entire jury over to like a fabulous cocktail party at his mansion.

Right.

And he's like, that seems like we had crab and shrimp and cabernet franc.

And you're like,

I thought you're like not allowed to speak to the jury.

Isn't that wildly unethical?

Maybe after the case, you're allowed to talk to them, but it definitely seems that he becomes like lifelong friends with them.

And he's like, I just invites them to Christmas parties every year.

Literally like day of.

not guilty verdict comes through and then they roll through and it's just like you know I mean

it's like hello then if the jurors know that oh well if we do not guilty we're all going to party at Cochrane's later Cochrane's hell yeah

I'm doing not guilty I mean as I said I'm gonna do not guilty anyway yeah no wait you would do not guilty oh for anyone yeah pretty much I'm I'm pretty like not guilty boots I just feel like and as someone who has been to jail four times I will say I don't like it in there I don't think people should have to go well okay I've always felt so also bad, just like for anyone that's murdered, because it's kind of like, what happened to you?

Sorry, did you say

feel bad for murderers?

Because it's like

murderers because it's like, well, what happened to you that kind of brought you to the bottom of the body?

Absolutely across like empathy vibes.

Yes.

No, I know I'm empathetic.

No, I totally agree.

And I think that like there's, there could be some really interesting articles written like with that perspective.

I'd love to see that talked about more often.

Because I don't think anyone has.

No, no one has.

Absolutely not.

And no one's also talked about how jail is kind of a bad place.

It's also, I would, yeah.

So if anyone is getting inspo right now for what we're saying,

definitely feel like feel free to come.

I'm going to think piece going.

Do some research.

Let us know.

Criminal justice system, is it all it's cracked up to be?

That's what we're talking about.

No, I know.

I'm like, I'm getting a sense in this book that there should be some changes.

No, absolutely getting the sense of changes.

Well, you know, and also what's so damning about this book is he's telling stories about the 60s, about police planting evidence, about police murdering black men in their cars.

When their pregnant wives

are next to their moments.

On the street.

These are all stories that happen today in 2020, in 2021, in fact.

No, but the story he tells about, I feel like even in just like this insane Black Panther case where it was just like so.

So he did get up all these.

Black Panthers and there was an informant because there was this whole siege of the Black Panther headquarters by police.

Miraculously, no one was killed killed during that, which is interesting.

Big old history lesson in this book.

Well, that whole section really reminded me of the movie Sebring, the Amazon original film that I watched recently starring.

What's her name?

Lesbian?

Can't be kidding?

No.

Jane Lynch.

The hot one.

Kristen Store.

Yes.

And where she plays like Jean Sebring, the French actress who became involved in the Black Panthers movement.

Oh, why haven't I seen this?

I told you to watch this.

Okay, well, I'll watch it tonight.

Anyway, it's very sexy.

And like she is living in all of these like really sexy like 60s mid-century like LA mansions But like while she's just like fucking this guy and the Black Panthers and becoming this like

radical radical

But then also being like so monitored by the FBI

and Hoover and he talks about well can we talk about how he like drags Hoover for being he was like oh he was like even Hoover's as racist as like he was gay secretly gay.

Yeah, he was as closeted about his sexuality as racism I think was the was the line which is hilarious Yeah Okay, but here's my question.

So you always see that phrase.

Oh, Cointel Pro?

So yeah, how do you say it?

Because I, when every time I see it, because people on Twitter are always like saying Cointel Pro, and I'm like, do you say Cointel Pro?

Or do you say Co-Intel Pro?

Contel Pro.

That feels the Contel Pro.

I was saying, in my mind, I was saying Cointel Pro.

I've been saying Cointel Pro as well, but I feel like it comes from counterintelligence program.

So you would think it'd be like CoIntel Pro.

Oh, CoIntel Pro.

That might make more sense.

So CoIntel Pro was the program that the FBI set up that basically was spying on so-called domestic terrorists, aka the Black Panthers at the time, because they wanted to basically destroy them and dismantle them in the inside.

And they have at least informants and agents provided.

And obviously, it's so fucked up because they were, you know, offering so much money.

So it's like, you know, if you're like, oh, like, well, like, they'll get, then I won't get arrested if I like inform.

No, I mean, the way this case, well, then the Geronimo Platt case, as it turns out, like, everyone's an informant for like someone else.

Like, everyone is lying.

Yeah, there was no one who wasn't an informant.

Everyone is setting up everyone else.

It was just like.

So it's kind of like when I was reading that, I was like, so what's the point here?

And that's always that thing where it's like the FBI hates the cops and the FBI and CIA hate each other.

Well, and then there was also the two factions within the Black Panthers that were fighting each other.

Right, because then like they each had a leader and then they each have their own informants and then no one knows and everyone's informing on each other.

And you know who's sitting at their car?

Oh, collecting the money?

Collecting all the money is, you know, is Uncle Sam is the whole, you know, the whole system, the whole criminal justice system.

Oh, no, and it's a big old cycle.

Although, I guess Jenny Cochrane's also collecting all the money.

No, he's collecting it.

That's the thing it is.

He has always been like, and I did own a supper club and I owned a sports team and I started an airport.

It's so funny.

It's like, you know, he's.

getting more successful and more successful.

And he's like, and then I opened up my bigger firm and then I did start to go into entertainment law.

And I took on Aretha Franklin and the Supremes and Michael Jackson as clients.

And then he'll be like, and I want a case.

And like, someone did advise me to put it back into the community because I was making money from the community because it was basically just like he was like the high profile black lawyer, and they're like, Yeah, maybe like give back

scrounging up like every dollar that's gonna pick up like a look at the ball.

Please, please, Johnny Gargo represent me because people got me off.

Celebrity book club club.

Okay, so he was representing Michael Jackson.

Yes.

So it's kind of ironic.

I just feel like there is no problem.

So yes, like Johnny Cochrane is absolutely like a titan of law, but it's also like you could see him as he becomes more successful.

It's he's, he's more just like, I'm going to represent celebrities.

Yes.

And it's just like, you go from basically like, you know, really believing on this political sense, like representing like Black Panthers and like people you think that are just like really, really oppressed by the system to representing just like O.J.

Simpson and Michael Jackson in a child molestation case.

Yeah.

and then he also in his kind of week long where he's going to his mother's crypt and like can't figure out if he should like take the OJ case, he's like, my beautiful wife, Dr.

Dale, and I went to the Hollywood Bowl with my very, very good friend.

Bill Cosby.

And Bill just has a way of joking his way through difficult things to talk about.

Interesting.

And you're like, huh, I don't know.

Is this like right switch of going from like the Michael Jackson case?

Bill's got like a roofied teenager on his arm who's like fully pasted on Johnny Cochrane's just like, he just has this funny way about him.

He's just kind of a silly guy.

I'm just

a hilarious, silly guy.

So if I may read this passage where he's going to Michael Jackson's house.

Oh.

Well, no, first, okay.

He goes to Neverland?

Yeah.

I forgot about this part.

A couple of days later, Carl and I drove to Santa Monica Airport where Michael's private helicopter was waiting to fly us to his famous Neverland retreat in Santa Barbara County, north of Los Angeles.

It is, as the name suggests, a consciously magical place with its vast mansion, private zoo, and dazzling amusement park.

There is music everywhere.

And the minute I stepped out of the helicopter, I understood that this whole enchanted environment had been designed to reinforce and maintain the childlike sense of wonder so crucial to Michael's art.

I remember turning to Carl and saying, we can't let this young man be taken down.

He told us he's innocent.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He says that a lot about OJ too.

It's always just like, he said he was innocent.

It's like, that's what people do.

Oh, I guess they really do say that they're innocent.

I guess as a defense lawyer, when someone tells you they're innocent, you just have to go, okay.

Yeah, I was just like, got it.

Well, okay, also, you watch a lot of All Rise.

I feel like a lot of defense lawyers, and I may be absolutely wrong here, legal eagles, tell me.

I feel like a lot of defense lawyers don't straight up ask their clients if they're innocent or guilty.

I mean, okay, on All Rise, again, which is a documentary,

a CBS procedural documentary of the public defender who like does a lot of the cases.

Yeah.

She's always just being just like, I don't want to know.

Like, don't tell me that.

She's always telling them, like, stop telling them about a gun or something that they had or like something.

She's always trying to prevent them from admitting something that she can't hear because she's just trying to do their best to help them.

And like.

Right.

She's like, let me just do the evidence and we're just going to go with the name of the game.

Yeah, and she's always trying to find some other procedural reason why the evidence should be thrown out.

Or, I mean, speaking of procedural reasons why the evidence should be thrown out, I was actually quite surprised that Shapiro, so who's Shapiro, who was played by John Travolta in the

show,

who, speaking of more closeted than they are, more closeted than whatever.

Bob Shapiro, the other night I wrote down, I was like, God, lawyers are absolutely insane.

He like, Johnny Cochran is lead counsel, but before it was Bob Shapiro.

And Bob Shapiro like comes back to their offices and lies.

And he's just like, well, OJ told me himself.

He wants me to be head counsel.

And Johnny's like no Johnny's like no I know he's been begging me He's been calling me for weeks like I had to go to my team voice calls

like being like I'm desperate for you to represent me like Shapiro is not a trial lawyer Shapiro does nothing I mean he basically says that Shapiro is horrible but he assembled the dream team and so he deserves credit for that but yeah and then in the trial it's like Marsha is like him they're joking about how Shapiro is an empty suit and she's like thinking it's horrible so I'm like okay so you're saying you're friends with Marsha no I think he had a lot of sympathy for Marsha because I mean mean, he says also, like, we only had like a little bit of time in the beginning when we were like joking and there's like some small photo of them like smiling.

And obviously things got like absolutely tense afterwards.

But he's like, I felt bad for her because like all my ex-wives like talk shit about me in the tabloids and this case was insane.

But like I had my wife, Dr.

Dale, who kept our beautiful modern home

immaculate for me to come home to.

And he was like, and Marcia was like the most like insanely stressed out single mom whose ex-husband tried to get custody of her kids.

And like he submitted like nude photos of her to the inquiry.

This all happened on the show.

I mean, on that other documentary, that Brian Murphy show that we watched, but like it is kind of a joke, and he does, he makes it seem like it, that was very accurate because like he just is in his like expensive suits and like going to his huge, gorgeous mom's house every day, and she's coming in like so kerfuffled and like spilling so much coffee on her binder and just like, and they're like such a mess.

Right.

And it's so like, oh, I need to bring my kids to school and he's just like there like looking fab what I was quite surprised by this was a bit of a kind of a legal shock to me was that Shapiro thought that they were gonna be able to get the glove dismissed and

he was that they were gonna be able to get the glove suppressed in prelim and that therefore the whole trial would get dismissed at prelim they would just be like okay fine we don't have the biggest piece of evidence wait have you seen the actual the trial i've seen seen it.

I actually recently

watched the footage of the glove.

And it really.

Okay, here's my thing about the glove.

I think he's so clearly acting.

Yeah, it is the most like fully like theater camp.

UCB boots.

UCB glove vibes.

Like he's like pulling it on like so hard and being like, oh, no, there's no way.

Also, here's my thing about the glove.

And again, like I also don't.

Are you talking about the plastic gloves you have to wear underneath?

Yeah, it's like you're wearing you're already wearing another glove, the plastic gloves.

Also, a lot of the times, like, I don't know, you buy ill-fitting gloves.

I don't know, even if you're a celeb, yeah, I guess I just think like cats and gloves, like it's kind of one size fits all.

Yeah, like fits like a glove, like that phrase is actually quite odd.

Like, in let's talk to the English language, it would actually make sense that maybe he would use his pair of ill-fitting gloves

to murder.

I mean, again, it's like all of the discrepancies, and like, you know, the idea that the police would have planted evidence is completely reasonable and just like yes 100 and like all of these different reasons like why wasn't there more blood in the car in different places if the like there are so many things that suggests that there could have been plantains but at the end of the day you're just like who the fuck else is

well i googled today because that was my thing i was like okay so the first search also was his wife in the 80s or whatever well and they have like right they have nicole's sister like you know saying like he beat her like they have phone calls like there's always killing their ex-wives.

Right.

So it's like, this is the new boyfriend.

And then I googled, like, who are the other like Reddit suspects?

And of course, quara.com came up.

By the way.

Somehow, of course, my spam ass, I get emails from Quara every day.

They are very Quora Pill.

And I think I've like clicked on them so many times that they now go to primary.

They like don't go to, they don't go to promotions.

But the headlines are always so crazy.

So I keep on clicking on them it's always like my little brother murdered someone should i still give him a birthday party

so i'm quora pilled but then there was some of the other things on quaro they were saying was that like and who knows if obviously any of this is true was another waiter at the restaurant Mezzoluna, where Ron worked, was also murdered around that time.

And was it kind of a food and bev murder, actually?

Is that true?

I have no idea.

But that was on Quara.com.

I was obsessed with that theory.

No, and that I was like, well, there was this bigger food and bev ring.

Yeah.

I always just feel like, I also feel like, hasn't Chris Jenner said that like she thinks I shouldn't?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I feel like Kim is like, mom, I don't want to talk about it.

Like,

because they are so also like going to their dad's like crypt.

Yeah, they're so asking a crypt for their mother.

They're so me, if you know what I mean.

Oh, yeah, yeah, I do.

As one reviewer said, you're obsessed with your dad's death.

Get over it.

Leave in the ground, bitch.

Move on.

That journey to justice.

So, yeah, to me, in the column that he did it,

Chris Jenner thinks it.

A.

B, like the sort of whatever, the evidence that, like,

the trail of blood from like Delway Hive to Rockingham, or they always call the houses like by the street names, which is like, so Kristen Cavallieri calling her other house.

The Rockingham.

Bradford or whatever.

Like, that is in the column of he did it to me and then also the fact that like he is like still sketchy and he also wrote that book called If I Did It If I Did It's kind of just like seriously and you did it to me and but I what I'm not putting in that category is the fact that he did run and the whole Bronco chase because like yes because to me I'm like though that I get because hello the police are so racist and just like you don't know what to do and like maybe you got scared and like that to me I'm like I think at the time people like that really sealed the deal where they're like oh he must oh if you're running you're not but it's like uh police are evil yeah police are evil.

And you have no idea.

They could have shot you on the spot.

Who knows?

They could have planted more shit in your car.

Right, you got it.

Smeared it with more of my period blood.

Exactly.

And it's also his like crime that he went away for for 33 years, I always find completely insane.

It was like a memorabilia heist.

I could really see myself.

If I was to go away to the big house, it would be for what OJ went away for.

He was taking taking back his own sports.

Being like a bobblehead from like a Vegas

Vegas.

So he was like taking back like bobbleheads and trophies and like

jail for a doll heist.

Oh my God, wait.

Doll stuff.

So to our listeners, to all the listeners, I'm addicted to buying dolls and I've stopped myself because it's weird.

And

I have to say.

The way you said it's weird with just like so little conviction, like you were actually just like at that, like

you're at your parole hearing, like, no, and I've stopped it.

And it's weird.

I promise, Your Honor, I don't like dolls anymore.

I'm not salivating over the prospect of a vintage Dr.

Evil doll still in its original case.

They pull up, they take my laptop, they take my eBay searches.

I'm like furiously trying to clear them.

I'm like, vintage Johnny Cash doll that sings.

Like the entire cast of all in the family.

so I just want to talk quickly how Annie Leibowitz did a photo shoot of the entire dream team before the OJ trial began and Johnny Cochran was like so proud he was like and I said I had no time for the Annie Leibowitz photo shoot even though she is an absolutely amazing artist

and then he calls OJ and he's like yeah the rest of them they all went to the Leibowitz photo shoot but I actually have work to do in your case and OJ is like hell yes like I didn't want you to go to the photo shoot that's so bethany of him i know and like um this is actually a fucking business this is a business and my time is valuable

wow um go off yeah i know i i want to see those leewowitz photos i mean i think it's like it's another example of him kind of trying to play both ways where he kind of like he is bemoaning like the turn from information into entertainment and like the rise of 240 news and like the celebrification of like every job and like every industry and just like and the sort of like the besmirching of like the legal names but it's just like you he's such a huge part of it you're the biggest celebrity lawyer yeah you're the biggest celebrity lawyer and you're just like you absolutely like use entertainment like you know for good but also for bad and it's a double-edged sword and you absolutely love to just like reap the benefits of fame and fortune and just to kind of add on also of him being like i'm because he's like my children are my dream and i'm the best father in the entire world and it's like they probably see him like hardly ever, but then he's being like

very just like divorce court proceedings where he's like, and then my ex-wife just like she started talking about me on Meet the Press.

And my son was in finals at that time, and it made him so stressed out, he had to spend the night at my house.

And he's very just like, I win.

And it's kind of like, do we need to be so petty here?

I mean, divorce is petty.

Yeah, petty boots.

And he's like, and I have always like given my children and my ex-wives so much much money and I mean look it is shady that his ex-wives like went on to talk about it but it's like he was on TV every day they probably wanted a piece of the pie too

yeah it's just like you know pot kettle right and like and he talks about how he had to like in one of the like opening stages of the OJ trial he was also like going to like family court across the street for like his wife was like fighting him on something and he had to like run he had to like run across and then he was late getting back and then he was like in contempt for like being late because he was like doing a family gourd and he was just being like oh like crazy day in my crazy life with my crazy ex-wife and like again being so Bethany and just just like I have so much on my plate and like no one realizes how insane it is to be a high-powered superstar celebrity lawyer

Segments, how do you plead?

Segments, approach the bench.

Your honor, I segment.

Okay, what does she eat?

How does she live?

What does she wear?

So what does he eat?

What does he eat?

Let's pull up the passage where he talks about the supper club that he owns.

I mean, he has decadent tastes.

But I think he has high cholesterol.

And he's changed his life.

So his presence is like the wife is probably like Dale was probably just being like, no, stop salting that meat and like making him have a Caesar salad, but the Caesar salad is like so covered in dressing.

So that's the thing, right?

He's, you know, he grew up on your classic soul food and he's just like, obviously, like, loves, you know, that, but it's the 90s.

Dairy.

Right.

Chicken.

Yeah.

You know, the works.

Talk about cage-free.

They were ringing the chicken right before dinner.

Right.

So.

No, it was super organic.

That's the thing.

It's only like this.

There's one thing.

It's always just like there's five different dishes.

Right.

It's like there's chicken, like greens, peas.

The coconut, pineapple cake.

There's

always cake before lemonade.

But, oh,

his family, they were so devout, so they were not drinking.

But he drinks.

He drinks, yeah.

Yeah.

But I'm sure in a very like measured way.

I'm sure his, okay, let me read the passage of a supper club and then we'll talk about his wine cellar.

At the time, another lawyer, Frank A.

Evans Jr.

and I owned a supper club in South Los Angeles called quote-unquote there.

Wait, that's the most incredible name.

It's like so fabulous.

There.

There.

Meet you there.

Meet you at there.

Meet you at there.

Let's go.

Let's go to there.

There.

Oh, that's so fun.

I bet it's not open anymore.

Can we restore there?

Yes.

I would love that.

Go find the restoration project.

With its mahogany paneled walls, warm lighting, top light chef, and congenial bar.

Is that how you say?

Congenial bar?

Oh, yeah.

The club soon became a popular hangout for local sports celebrities.

Muhammad Ali was a frequent visitor.

The opportunity to rub elbows with sports stars, along with courteous professional service, which I'd learned to recognize in my catering days, quickly made there a favorite spot among the city's growing black middle class.

It would be years before diet and discipline became synonymous in the American mind, and our kitchen was very much a creature of its time.

A typical Sunday brunch at There, for example, would in the words of our menu start with King Crab Cocktail Supreme, move on to a tureen of soup du jour, followed by prime rib of beef au ju, roasted according to an old English recipe in our specially designed ovens.

Fabulous, by the way, that they have like special ovens.

It's very ajo stove.

Yeah.

And finish, sorry, I'm getting so hungry.

With cheesecake in a hot cherries jubilee sauce.

To accompany our meal, we suggest a bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon.

And that he's quoting his full menu here.

And then he goes, my cholesterol level, notwithstanding, that still sounds pretty good.

So he's saying that that's.

He's saying that.

I think he's basically admitting, though, that that means that his wife is now being like making him have a wedge salad instead.

Yeah.

But like the wedge is still just like bacon.

Yeah, it's cob boots.

It's cobb.

I don't think it's very like he's working so much.

I don't think he's eating during the day.

Like, I think his secretary's bringing him cappuccino.

He also roasts some other lawyers for getting cappuccinos.

Yeah, I don't think he likes faggot food.

But you know what?

I bet he does like, I will say, and I, and I know this from, you know, when I used to work in politics, working downtown, you're near the courthouses.

Oh, yeah, that court food.

That kind of court vibe.

I feel like he's very pea soup.

Oh, didn't see that coming.

I think that makes a lot of sense.

A lot more high-powered lawyers than you think have soup because it's just in a small cup and you can kind of like come back to it, like, but you can eat it quickly.

Like it's not actually that messy.

It's surprisingly not that messy, even though it as liquid because it's just, it's very contained.

No, I see he's buzzing.

He's like, Jan.

Can you get me my soup?

And it's like a bottled water and he's getting on his table.

It's an Evian, maybe half a BLT and a pea soup.

You don't even think there's a BLT there.

It's just

So, I mean, that makes sense, Rick.

It's like, I mean, and he's working out four times a week into beautiful.

Because when you don't want, and here's why the sandwich is a no-go, you bite in, and that mustard, that sauce squirts on your soup.

Oh, also, no, it's the huge Thai, that's so 90s, mustard on the big white sauce.

White Thai, and then you're dabbing it with your, I don't know, I'm pounding my chest right now in

gorilla boots, creating a dab.

Okay, I also feel like it's very lawyer to be, he comes home and they're like, you got to eat.

And he's like, I'm going to my study.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's too exhausted by the events of the day to even eat.

Okay, what does he wear?

Well, as we were talking about, he is a dapper gentleman.

Absolutely.

He likes a double-breasted suit.

He likes

gorgeous suspenders.

I think a bold tie.

A wide tie and a bold color.

And I feel like it's, you know, it's a very 90s.

It's a pleated pant double-breasted suit.

So even on the cover of this book, he, um, he's got a little cross pin on his lapel.

Very Christian.

Also, pocket squares, as every man should have.

Absolutely, gorgeous.

And I think, I mean, it is like a wide tie, but it's not like so insane pattern because I feel like he is like, well, we are in a courtroom and like, you know, it's a slight pattern.

It's not the craziest.

No, it's not such a dad tie that's like so kooky and like golf clubs and

it's like not such like a Christmas tree or or whatever.

Turkeys

and Santa's.

And then I feel like when what says casual wear?

Just like golf.

That's what I was saying.

I think it's like golf.

It's dry fit polo tucked in, or it's like so nice.

I mean, I do.

We should say he is dead.

So yes.

R.I.P.

Yeah.

I can't think of it.

The Dry Fit.

Maybe the Dry Fit.

I think it's like

okay, so it's cotton or it's like thick plain.

Like it was your old school like golf polo from like the Bahama Breeze.

Yeah, it's from like the Rinse Carlton

Bahamas Barbados

hotel, tucked into sweatpants, like very crisp

into sweatpants.

High socks, and then he's like doing like a 90s exercise.

Okay, did like the Barbo Odre who was like,

hello, like they were dress socks.

He wouldn't have been wearing dress socks with joggers.

Right, he's so fabulous.

And he also won't, along with the bolo ties, he won't admit a juror who wears white socks.

Okay, wait, what?

He says no white socks and no string string ties.

Okay, well, that's crazy.

Yeah.

Because everyone wears white socks.

Well, I guess he's thinking like if you go to a courthouse, you dress up and like don't show up in your gym suit.

Again, this is so Bethany.

And see, I mean, this, I'm watching her new show on HPM Max, which is obviously insane.

And which I need to watch.

She's like freaked because this one, like, the like social media influencer girl who's like competing for this new job with Bethany, she's like, who saw up to a job interview in a crop top?

I can't believe she was in a crop top.

And like, the girl's wearing the most like insane leather long sleeve bustier, like it's technically a crop top and like wearing so much makeup and jewelry and 18 hats and like no, and that's why he's so quirky.

And like I do think if he was alive today, again, rest in peace, Johnny Cochrane Jr.

Um, Esquire, I could see like him and Bethany having a show.

Him, Bethany, and Barbara, just like

he actually would be so he would definitely be on the tank.

Yeah.

And just like, I feel like Mark Cuban would actually be like kind of bowing to him.

Oh, yeah, and be like, you know, you paved the way.

Right.

Because also at the end of this book, like after he's just like, and the justice system is corrupt and everyone's racist, he's like, and also I became a sports agent.

Yeah.

You know, never stop.

That's the thing.

No, always expand.

I wanted to become, after I saw Jared McGuire, I really wanted to become a sports agent.

I was really inspired by that film.

Did you ever do anything to pursue that dream?

Well, I played sports.

So that's a no?

Yes, that's a no in your eyes, but I got to know, you know, how the teams worked in and out.

I, you know, okay, fair.

I mean, you were immersing yourself in the lingua franca of sporting, but you never said, hey, like, do you even go on your favorite website, Quora, and see what it takes to become a sports agent?

Well, because then I transitioned into the dream of hoteliers, which I also fulfilled, which is still the current training, which is still the current trade that I haven't fulfilled.

Well, why don't you have you looked that up on Cornell?

I remember my parents were like, well, you know, Cornell has a hotel school.

And I was like, okay.

At what point did you realize you weren't going to go to Cornell?

At what point in your high school career were you like, huh?

This was, I think, once I even had hit 14, I kind of was like, Cornell's.

No, I don't think Cornell's for me, and I don't think I'm for them.

No, I know, and I know it was a mutual

honesty.

It was mutual.

Yeah, totally.

It was totally chill and mutual.

Absolutely.

Okay.

How does he live?

We have discussed.

I mean, he says it in great detail.

Gorgeous, modern

lines.

Clean lines.

I picture the furniture very like custom curved.

I was picturing, right?

I feel like there's kind of like it's pink tones.

I feel like it's very light.

Like, I kind of feel like he is like this mama's boy.

And it's like.

There's a femininity to it.

There are pinks and lavender.

There's shams.

Yeah.

And it's a lot of carpet.

Shams on the beds, you mean?

Yeah, shams on the bed.

Yeah.

But I think in his entertaining area, like big ass dark hutch.

No, I think it's a little more 90s, 90s white built-in.

It's all like white built-in or like this, like glass, black,

huge.

I know what you're talking about.

Yes, the and they have that, it's very satisfying to press them open and close the black, that black glass.

Yes, yes.

He probably has a good screening room, but I feel like he's the type of person that, while he does love like vacationing, like I don't think he really can relax and watch a movie.

Like, he watches football while he's working, you know?

Totally agree.

He seems like he's very outerall

boots, but like without outer all.

Like, his time to relax is with the trainer.

Can I also say something that might shock you?

Sure.

Fake plants.

Yep, I agree.

Yeah.

He doesn't have time to water.

No, I think he's got big fake plants like throughout the house.

And some of them are in kind of like.

Well, it's also very 90s.

Like, no one was really like.

Plant care was not.

No, he wasn't like a totally witchy femme, like getting succulents.

But there were people in their 90s.

Succulent is my boyfriend.

Can't keep a succulent alive past one month or a relationship.

You might be me.

No, but I do think there were people in the 90s who, I mean, you're right.

Like, I'm pretty sure my parents had fake plants also in their house.

And like, at just one point, I was like, oh, wait, this is fake?

It was very like when you're eight and you're like, okay, so Santa's not real and this plant is fake.

I remember we had this one planter and I'm like, who was watering those hoes?

And then maybe it was fake.

I think they were real and I think they died.

But I am saying I do think that like there were rich people who have like gardens for sure that are meticulously maintained and gardeners and all of that.

Well, isn't that more LA and like before the whole water crisis?

Greenhouse.

Oh, yeah.

And they were just shooting those sprinklers left and right.

Yeah.

And now it's like more woke to have like a mulched yard or whatever.

Or stone or whatever.

Or stone, landscaping, Japanese rock garden, et cetera.

Absolutely.

I just think he he likes, right, things were low maintenance for because even like Dr.

Dale, like, she was holding it down at the Concrane Fort.

Yeah, I mean, but I mean, okay, on the show, she's just like in like a silk nightgown, like waiting, I feel.

And like the whole show is just her being like

rolling around like these like silk sheets in a silk nightgown, just being like, Johnny, like you're late again.

Well, it seems like it's very like 90s sitcom when like the mom of the show is wearing just a floor-length silk nightgown, and then the audience is like, ooh,

and he's like, oh miss cochran it's good to see you and she's like it would have been good to see you two hours ago

storms off

your dinner's on the table and again it's like a cob

cob stuff okay i think yeah so who are you in the

who are you in the book who are in the book um

Are you Lenny Bruce, who's disheveled and he thinks, talks out of line about just like

something?

Early in the book he's like i'm famously feather ruffling comedian lenny bruce yeah and he was like i could smell the alcohol in his breath he was unshaven and his jokes went too far yeah i think i would offend christian johnny cochle this is when he was worked for the da it was like he hadn't gone to defense yet yeah so he was he was probably his most sort of stiff and conservative yeah yeah and i do also think that like people of like a johnny cocher experience will like see me and be like i feel like my parents' friends are always being like, hey, you want to stand a little closer to the razor next time, honey?

Like when you don't have the most like perfectly clean-shaven face.

Anything other than that, it's just like, whoa, this is crazy.

Though Johnny Cooker does love, he was like, and I do regret when I stopped talking to my friend Elaine Schulman in fourth grade because we heard her parents were communists and I will regret that for the rest of my life.

Wow.

Anyway, but yeah, I think he's like a little.

So what you think you're Elaine Schulman, whose parents are communists?

No, I was just saying that like he is like sketched by like

no, he is sketched by people, and then like pretending that he is like not sketched by them later.

But am I one of his ex-wives who goes to the press?

You're just after the trials.

No shame, no shame at all.

Being like, well, fuck, I'm going on TV.

No, aren't you the guy, the like surfer guy who lives at OJ's house?

Oh, yeah, he was like, he was just chilling there as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm just like, and I'm like, oh, wait.

You're like, fuck.

Okay, randomly am I keying us that's on a murder.

Yeah.

Kato, that was his name.

Kato, yeah.

Very cool.

Fuck yeah, dude.

All right.

Awesome.

Surfer stuff.

Okay.

Well, I give this book.

I mean, if you're a huge Johnny Cochrane head,

which, you know, there aren't enough of them anymore.

There aren't.

And, like, I would say he also, like, in a legal way, he does spill tea.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, in his way, he does.

He does.

And he is giving you like, the full play of a pain.

Like, he's not, like, he is saying that, like, Shapiro is an empty suit.

He's, like, saying this about the other characters.

Like, it's kind of a tell-all.

And maybe it's kind of impressive also that, you know, this book came out in like 96 or whatever.

Right.

Like, he really.

He really was speaking.

I wouldn't say speaking truth to power, but speaking truth.

Yes.

Because

he is in power.

And he's also kind of, he's just being like, and Judge Ito was a great guy.

And just like, he's also just like complimenting everyone that he works with.

Right.

He's like, Judge, he's like, he had kind of a naughty sense of humor.

Oh, yeah, an impish.

Impish sense of humor.

And I was like, impish.

And so that was actually a word I looked up.

Wow.

Yeah.

Nice.

Okay.

So if you want to work on your vocabulary, definitely read this book.

No, it's kind of a good history lesson.

And if you want to learn about kind of like more horrible things cops have done and just kind of through

no, I mean, I was like, the part about the Black Panther is like, I was like really turning the page.

And like, that was quite thrilling.

The thing about this book, though, is I feel like, you know, if you're into this stuff, you probably already know all of this.

right and you could like

some of those parts I'm like I'm not getting anything I wouldn't necessarily get from the Wikipedia or like a documentary or whatever yeah I would a little more like a Johnny Cochrane doc yeah But I also do feel like there's a lot he's not saying when he's just being like, and I love my kid and like, I'm a great husband and I never hit my wife.

Anyway.

As we were saying, that.

Right.

I guess it's like, it's a good where he goes through also the cases fast.

And then I did like when he was like, and there's like this, you know, fucked up case and you're learning about the FBI.

So it kind of tips you off and you're like, well, let's get, you know, deeper into it.

Yeah.

But the OJ stuff, it's kind of like, well, we do know about it.

We do really know.

But imagine you are, you know, in a 1997 woman eating your Cobb salad and this book just came out.

You'd be like,

finally, I'm getting the other side of the dirt that I didn't get watching this televised trial.

No, I'm having a latte or I'm sipping on a Lipton brisk with my salad.

Yeah, I'd be really digging through it, but I guess it's a little of the gossip is, you know, a little old for us now.

But I also do like the way he is kind of so fab and just, and I wish there was more of that when he just is like, and just right before I talk about this case, let's talk about my home gym.

So, yeah.

I guess I'm giving it two and a half out of five John Grisham's just because like this is a thick, long book and I can't really imagine actually reading it like if I wasn't doing this podcast about it.

I, yeah, I agree with you.

Or also, I wouldn't be like, oh my God, like you're going gonna die at this part when like he talks about like Bob Shapiro telling him that he should do less speeches at libraries.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's not, I don't know.

So yeah.

He's fully getting spells.

2.5 suspenders out of five.

Wow, five suspenders.

That's going to be tough because.

Usually they come in a set of two.

Well,

okay, have fun with that math.

Maybe if you're like a folk of one-armed experience and you only use one suspension.

Next week, we're going north of the border for another duo.

Grab your hammers and grab your levelers.

Get ready for a renovator's dream when we tackle the one and only Canadian family duo, The Property Brothers.

Property Brothers.

And their memoir, which I forgot the name of.

It's just like Demo Day or Property Brothers.

This is how we run out.

Yeah, down to the studs.

I'm super awake and excited.

As you know, I'm addicted to the Property Brothers mobile game.

Yeah, you would rather kind of read the memoir of the creator of their mobile game.

It's called It Takes Two, which is also the name of America Nash Listen film.

Right.

One of their best flicks.

Oh, are you?

I didn't know you were such a scholar.

Well, I guess it's the only movie that came out in theaters, and the rest of them were straight to video.

We saw you written it in theaters, I feel, in high school.

Oh, that's true.

Call me in.

Okay.

Erasing their teen years.

Oh, sorry.

Did they get too slutty for you?

Oh, you only like the old suits when they were four years old and in little pink dresses.

Yeah, I believe.

Because that's how you like your kids, Michael Jackson.

Why don't you go call Johnny Cochran up and have him defend you?

I'm sorry.

Michael Jackson is a wonderful musician, and those kids just want fame.

They are leeching off of him in the hard work that he's done to bring America together.

Neverland is just an amazing zoo, okay?

No, it's it's literally a zoo where they actually are nice to the animals, which you rarely see anymore.

And if you really cared about zoo life, then you would know they're not.

I stopped going to zoos years ago, unlike your ass.

That's true.

Actually, I'm such a zoo ho.

Okay.

Okay.

So, y'all, thanks for listening.

And you know, to do.

Thank you so much for listening.

Like, this was such a joy to go on this journey to justice with all of you.

Sorry.

Order in the court.

The verdict is this podcast is over.

Clap, clap, recess.

All right, y'all.

Raid, subscribe.

The works.

Follow us at CBC the pod.

And we will see you next

week.

Ciao, ciao.

Court is adjourned.

Best.

Best.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Celebrity Book Club is presented by Prologue Projects and Hadgum.

The show is produced by known criminal Meg Bernay with editorial support from Judge Leon Nafa,

the Honorable Andrew Parsons, and Madeline Kaplan Esquire.

Our production manager is senior prosecutor Percia Berlin.

Engineering by Ferris Monchi, who is sadly on a hunger strike in prison.

Original theme song by Stephen Phillips Horst, who is handcuffed at this very moment.

Artwork by Teddy Blanks at Chips NY,

which is a small legal defense team that helps people who are in need.

So please do donate to them.

Follow us on Twitter at CBCThePod.

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Best.