The Power Broker Breakdown Wrap-Up

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This is a special bonus episode of the 99% Invisible Breakdown of the Power Broker.

I'm Roman Mars.

So a few weeks back, Elliot and I held our final PowerBroker event.

It was an AMA on our Discord server where we shared our final thoughts about the book and our thoughts about this whole experience.

And we took questions from listeners.

It was a ton of fun, but we know a lot of you couldn't make it.

So as promised, here is a recording of the event.

One of the questions that we want to start with was just about like our impressions of the book.

We've each read it three times.

And so Elliot, now that you've read it three times, what is your favorite part of the Powerbroker?

Now that I've read it three times and now that I'm back on my mic after telling a six-year-old no he cannot play Xbox right now, which is why my mic was turned off briefly.

I think my favorite part, I don't know, like I love that Al Smith biography section so much.

Yeah.

Just going through his life.

It's so

exciting.

And it's a story that until I read The Powerbroker, I was really truly unaware of like just what, what an amazing personality and amazing history that guy had.

But reading it this third, this third time through, I feel like there were parts of it I was picking up on before that I hadn't before.

And I think it's any time when Robert Caro's personal kind of like feelings and interests come through, not just the part where he's writing in italics, you know, they could have done it better.

You know, this was the wrong choice, but instead, how clearly he feels an admiration for some of the characters in the book and how clearly he does not feel admiration for some of the other people in the book.

Like, I don't think I fully picked up on the dislike of John Lindsay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

It was very funny to be on the third time through.

But what about you, Roman?

Are there parts after this multiple readings?

What are your favorite parts now?

I think

the end is more fun for me than previous.

And I think mainly has to do with my state of mind when I was reading it.

Because you're the last time.

I've read this book three times now, finally at the end.

No, actually, almost the opposite.

Whereas when I'd read it the first time,

I was really ready for it to be over.

Like, I just like making progress.

And so I didn't sort of really...

take a lot of pleasure in, you know, the different young reporters who are taking him on,

the Lindsay part, you know, like I was just looking for plot details of his fall and not sort of relishing the details of it.

And so I think I've had more fun with that part in this read and in our discussion.

Like I don't know if I fully even put together all the details of the Rockefeller deal and stuff like that.

Like I just kind of read it too quickly.

And so that sort of phase of the fall, when you can see that the end is almost coming and you really,

just from your sense of accomplishment, not because you're bored, but just you just want to keep going.

I think I breezed through

that part and didn't have as much fun with it.

But this time

that really stood out to me more.

I probably had a similar reaction, but that was so mixed in with my melancholy about us getting towards the end of the book.

It was mixed with this feeling of like, oh, I can't believe Rockefeller's almost accepted his resignation.

Yeah, I did feel,

I had so much fun.

doing this in general, just like working with you, Elliot and Isabel, and everyone's reaction to the book and really taking it on.

It was just, it was so much fun.

When we had our final production meeting today, I was like sad.

I was like,

you know, we should just like get together and hang out.

So, I mean,

I mean, we have talked about doing potential of doing other books and other projects.

We haven't sort of solidified that stuff, but everyone is very, very busy with lots of other things.

And so we want to be respectful of that and make sure that we're doing a good job and make sure that this is still fun.

So, so we will see about that, just to anticipate other questions coming up about that.

You know, another highlight of the series is, you know, we didn't know when we started that we were going to talk to Robert Caro or that he would

want us to do this exactly.

I thought he was going to tell us no.

I was really worried that we would have a Robert-Moses relationship that he, I was worried it would be like his relationship with Moses, where it was like, do not wish to be a part, do not authorize, don't do this.

Like, I was worried that that would be the reaction.

And it's been, it's hard to describe how gratifying it's been to been able to speak to him multiple times and to have him engage with us about our thoughts about this you know this book that he's been talking to people about for 50 years now it was um you know i've talked about this before about when when we did our live event with him which was which was an amazing dream come true on the flight over to to do it i was writing scripts for this for this puzzle comedy podcast that i do for a competing network i won't bring it up here but uh the but i was like i'm like i can't believe i'm writing these like ridiculous dumb jokes i'm gonna go talk to robert caro what a what a what a dream come true thing what do you but i know Roman, you found yourself really underwhelmed by him and you found it really a bitter experience.

I'm just going to say, I'm just facetious.

Very similarly, I was so delighted that he wanted to do it.

And then when he

was so

thoughtful and like forthright and sort of like emotional about it, that was when I was like, oh my goodness, this is so lovely.

You know, it just made me so, yeah, it just, it made me so happy.

And then,

you know, the

fun part was,

you know, talking to him and his recall about,

you know, just like the breakdown of different votes on the Long Island, you know, you know, like committee.

He'd be like, pardon me, it's been a long time.

I don't quite remember.

And then he'd know it.

Exactly.

And so, yeah, it was really, really something.

I was a little worried that he would be like, I've written other books.

Like, am I talking about this again?

And I think it was to see the,

that the, the pride he feels in it and also the trials he went through to that he and Aina both went through to write it,

that they're still so alive in him.

It was very moving to me and very special to see that, like, oh, this book is still a living kind of like experience, you know, that's so much to him as well.

I feel like being a comic book and science fiction fan, I've had the experience of really investing a lot of myself into a work of art and then either meeting or reading or seeing an interview with the author and having them be like, yeah, I don't know, whatever.

I toss that off, who cares?

And being like, oh, well, it meant a lot to me.

And so to see that this, this still means so much to Carol was really, really touched me.

You know, it was very meaningful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree.

And we had a bunch of other guests on the show.

And I was kind of amazed by that, like how many people wanted to be involved, like, you know, very notable people like AOC and Pete Bouditage and stuff.

Did you have a favorite moment from other guests?

My, I mean, this is, this is self-serving.

My favorite moment, I think, for all of them was when we had AOC on.

I was so, I was just so impressed with the way she was thinking and articulating her thoughts through it.

And I was like,

I'm going to make her laugh at this interview.

I'm going to try.

I'm going to try.

And I told the joke about like, she was saying that like all these people have come together to try to undo Robert Moses' work.

And I was like, so in a way, he's a hero.

They brought these people together.

And that she laughed at that.

And that I didn't get a scowl from her.

Like, I was very, I was very, that was my victory moment I'll take with me.

But also talking to Mike Scherr and having him and being like, I love this book.

And then talking to someone who like really loves it even or like thinks about it even more.

And at a certain point in my head, I'm like, well, he should be, he should be doing this podcast.

He was another person who had just like insane recall for a book that he did not write.

He just, he just knew it from reading it.

Yeah, I really,

I really loved talking with him and his sort of just his full embrace of the material is really great.

I, you know, for these interviews.

What other highlights did you have?

Yeah.

Well, for these interviews, I do a lot of reading on our guests, actually.

So I usually read whatever book they've written or other things that they've done.

And with AOC, I had, you know, she has a kind of,

there was a biography, like a sort of compilation biography written about her, of her early days and different stuff.

And what I was, I had most fun with was like

reading that early stuff and being reminded of how she was exacting change in the beginning.

her talking about the real politic of being in the position that she's in today and relating that to the power broker was just like revel.

I was like, this is a generational talent.

I was just kind of amazed by her.

That was just an incredible moment to sort of have that juxtaposition of where she started and where she is.

She was always talented and engaging, but just seeing that and realizing, oh, we're just the beginning of

her and our lives, which is a very good thing, I think, for the world.

I think it speaks volumes that you asked me and my thing that I was most memorable of was something I said, and your answer was something your guest was doing.

I think that just speaks a lot about us, the work we do, how we see the world.

Yeah, yeah.

And then, I don't know, it was just the range of it that I had so much fun.

Like, a lot of people are chiming in that they loved us talking to Brennan Lee Mulligan, which was my kid's favorite guest by far, you know, like, and, you know, he was really fun.

And Pete Budicic, I've like admired him for forever, and he's so much fun, so much fun to listen to.

You know, I really, I just, just, it was a great time.

You know, like it was, everyone sort of came to the challenge of it and had a good time.

And, you know, by the time we were getting to the end with like Clara Jeffrey, I think we were having a real discussion about the idea of, you know, what journalism means in the moment.

And, you know, she kind of asked us questions for the first time in that way.

And that was kind of fun.

I don't know.

It was just great.

And Conan and David Sims.

I mean, I had, you know, Jamel was so fun.

Like, it was like, we, especially the early guests, we had brought them on for the

breakdown portion.

And it was a really tall order for like Jamel and David Sims to do that.

It's a lot of material to digest relatively quickly and to not be as in it as we were because we were dedicated to going through the book the whole time.

But they were troopers.

They pulled it.

It was great to have them.

They pulled it off.

Totally.

Afterwards, I remember you were like, let's be a little easier on our guests.

Let's not make them do all this reading.

Well, the first, because the first one was AOC was the first one we didn't do that with.

And it was just because we didn't have three hours with her.

And then after that happened, we were like, this is a lot easier for them if they don't have to comment on every aspect of the book in this section.

And I ran into David Sims in New York, and he was like, okay, tell me the truth.

Was it because I was so bad?

And I was like, absolutely not, David.

You were great.

That's a very David way to think about it.

We were just making it easier on the other folks.

He was really great.

I really, I mean, if there was somebody who would have wanted to come on to do that, I think we might have to adjust it on the fly, but it just was, it was, and we ended up having sort of more of a thesis about them and their take on it versus them commenting on, you know, like nickel barons from the 1920s, you know.

So

let's see.

I don't know.

Any other thoughts before we get into some more questions from folks?

We have.

Something I do want to say before we get into other people is that I've said it before.

I'll say it again.

I'll probably say it again at the end.

I can't say enough what a delight and an exciting thing it it was for me roman when you first asked me to be involved in this at all you know uh i had been a listener of 99 visible for many years uh by that point and uh i'm and now i'm i'm done with it i don't participate

no i said i said i still listen to it regularly and there are some times when an opportunity kind of opens up to do something that you had not really considered doing.

But once the invitation is there, you realize, oh, this is the thing I want to do more than anything else I can imagine.

And then the experience lives up to your hopes about it.

And so working with you on this, working with Isabelle and with Kathy and being able to talk to the people we talk to and really take this time to engage and

think about and luxuriate in this book.

It's a top 10 creative experience for me, maybe even top five.

But I've got a life of light left.

So I want to, I mean, there's still a number of years left.

So I want to leave some wiggle room for it in the rankings, you know?

That's fair.

That's fair.

I mean, likewise, I mean, I initially, I was talking to you about it because I have been a Flophouse listener for a long time.

And the way I knew that there was something in the way that you were summarizing these things, but it was entertaining to me, even though I rarely watch the Flophouse movies.

So I was like, what is the secret to making this work?

Because in my initial conception of the piece, I would do much more of the breaking down to a person new to to the book.

That was the first kind of, that's my first idea.

And it wasn't that we both had,

you know, kind of equal grounding in the book.

And you said something so smart.

You were like, if I have 18 bullet points, then I've done enough summarizing, or like enough adjusting to that I know I've thought about it enough to move through the move through the movie in this case, move through the summary.

And I love it when somebody can boil something down to a number that they've been doing.

And like it feels like, oh, I don't know.

I know it when I feel it kind of thing.

But I, but I love it when people go, no, 18.

You know, like, so

20 is 20 is too much.

Although I feel like I gave you a real bait and switch because I was, because then when I did these summaries, I was like, I'm going to go long on these ones.

And I did not do as good a job of boiling them down.

But there's so much more so much to say about this than there is that I wanted to say about any movie we've ever watched on the blockhouse ever.

So totally.

But then when it shifted and I thought, oh no, but this just makes sense.

Maybe this, this, I should reconceive this.

I can't believe how well it turned out.

And I also can't believe how I think it would have been bad

had it worked out the other way.

If it wasn't the two of us and you really breaking it down and us sort of working on it together, I am just so grateful that you said yes and you had time to do it.

I mean, that's a little bit like you were like, do you want to eat nothing but fried chicken for the rest of your life?

And then I say yes.

And you're like,

I can't believe you just did it.

Like,

there's no way.

How could I say no to it?

That's right.

But anyway, it was, it was just, it's like so much fun.

And then the other part of it that was fun was like the activation of the audience and, you know, like having people be excited about it.

And they just got everyone sort of got it right away, like from the guests, Robert Caro.

I don't know, just everyone sort of, you know, like when you're in a show,

you know, I made 99% invisible for close to 15 years.

And

yeah, you're kind of a podcast newbie, but that's okay.

You know, Clubhouse is approaching its 18th anniversary, but you know, Dynamos is racking up there, yeah, sure.

That's right.

But it's rare that, you know, Time magazine or something pulls you out after 15 years and says, you know what, the best podcast of the year is?

99% of his volunteers power broker.

Like, they don't.

It's one we've gotten used to.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

They never do that.

But because I think the whole idea, you know, the execution and how it was produced and

then everyone's reaction to it, you know, knowing that this is a book that makes makes sense to go through like this.

I just, it just really captured people.

Like, it captured me as an idea.

Like, Chris Berubé on our team was the first, the person who pitched it.

And I was like, immediately, I was like, yep, we got to do that.

You know, and then from there, it just like, I'm just so, so pleased with it.

It turned out so well.

We've got to take a break.

When we come back, we get to some listener questions.

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Okay,

so we have asked people on the Discord some questions, and so we're going to get through some of those as many as we can in the remaining bit of the show.

This first question is from Jimmy Mango, probably not his real name, but

Connecticut Mangoes, yeah.

Great name.

The question is: you've posed the question whether there are Robert Moses's, Robert Mosi,

waiting for biographies to be written about them.

And Carol argues that there might be, there are, but without the same wide-ranging long-term impact.

Have you looked into that at all and found other Moses-like figures?

I guess I can answer this.

Well, so the funny thing is, is like on the regular show, we get pitches from a lot of reporters.

And there's been a flavor of them recently, which is, I want to tell you the story.

I want to report the the story of the Robert Moses of Toronto or the Robert Moses of Detroit or the Robert Moses of L.A.

And they're all good pitches.

I'm not disparaging them at all.

But there's a I think if you know the history of a place, you will find

in that place some kind of

urban architecture villain that you can hang on.

Somebody you can blame for that.

That's right.

So we had so many of them.

I think some of them, you know, will green light on their own, but but we've actually been talking about like, do we want to do like an urban villain March Madness style bracket for people like to feed into?

And so

we're thinking about how to execute that and maybe tell littler stories about lots of different men who ruined cities and acted undemocratically and all sorts of other things.

You know, I don't know if anyone's quite like Moses.

I think that he's right.

Robert Caro is right.

But there are plenty of people who have done plenty of mischief in our cities.

And

it would be fun to

look at more of them for sure.

I think you're right that none of them will be a direct competitor with Moses.

But I think that's partly the luck of when people talk about Abraham Lincoln and they're like, well, of course he was a great president.

He got to be president during the Civil War, as if that was like, it's easier to be great when it's a big problem.

But I think that the fact that he was, that he had the lucky break of being a New York-based builder, a New York-based power broker.

And so there's just a bigger scale to operate on than almost any other city in the country.

But you have your farm league Mozi all over the place, you know, in their regional power centers.

I'm excited about this.

So this brings me to, like, we're trying to fill this bracket and try to figure this out, how we're going to navigate this on the show.

So if you have any, you know, nominations of your Robert Moses of Portland or whatever, we would be delighted to start to collect them and figure out how we're going to put this together into something.

I'm not quite sure how to do it, but we'll figure out something.

The reverence of Portland is like, we have to tear down your house to put this bike lane through.

That's right.

Now I'm being terrible to Portland.

Any other city is.

I just can't help but misread them as terrible.

That is true.

So next question

from specific Andrew.

Not living in NYC, I found myself frequently wondering as I read the book, how is that piece of infrastructure doing these days, especially whenever Caro mused about how permanent Moses shaping would be on the city?

What are some of the Moses projects updates that you found notable, either that have stayed relatively unchanged since the power broker was written or have been demolished or maybe reworked into something more functional?

Elliot, you have more familiarity.

It's a good question.

We talked a little bit about the, and I wish I had a more comprehensive answer.

I've been away from New York for a number of years now as my primary residence.

And the thing about New York is it's always changing fast.

I think I mentioned in the podcast, I remember the thing that I think was Colson White Tide once said, where he said, you're a New Yorker, the first time you can point to something and say, oh, I know it used to be there before this.

Like, I knew that used to be a shoe store, you know.

But there are certain things that we mentioned on the podcast that, like,

Shea Stadium, which he was a big part of putting there, not there anymore.

The New York Coliseum, not there anymore.

These things that the 64 World's Fair site, which was somewhat built to be temporary anyway, but not all of it, that is in large part not there.

And someone had sent,

was it over Twitter?

I can't remember, sent me a picture of these 64 World's Fair mosaics that are just destroyed from years of people walking on them, these ground-level mosaics.

And there are other aspects that he built, like the roads are always...

falling apart a little bit.

Like it's the nature of any infrastructure that's not maintained too properly.

But there are certain parts of it where I think Carol's right, like the bridges he built, they're they're not going anywhere.

You know, they'll have to be maintained, but no one is replacing those with other bridges.

And certainly the way that he literally reshaped the geographic shape of the city in terms of filling in space between islands and things like that, that's not going anywhere for thousands of years, probably.

And so there are parts of infrastructure that

are still there.

And even when they're degrading, they're so important.

to the infrastructure of the city that they will be maintained.

But I think that's the nature of building stuff is that like when you build as much as Moses did, not all of it's going to last.

Not everything he built is going to is going to stay forever because New York is this constantly changing city.

And it shows you what a massive scale he had to build on in order to make things that are not likely to go away.

Because there's so many buildings that were built in New York where the person who put their all into it said, this is my monument.

And then eventually it disappeared and it went away.

It's such a, it's a constantly changing city.

There's the old legend about City Hall, which is way downtown, that they like only put the marble facing on the downtown side because they're like, nobody's going uptown farther than City Hall.

And now that thing is so far downtown that, like, it's ridiculous, you know, like literally no one's going to see this on the other side of the building.

And so there's always going to be stuff of his that is degrading, but again, it's so necessary that'll be maintained.

But then a few things that'll disappear.

And I wish I had a more, for the amount of time I talked, I wish I had a more substantive answer than that.

I mean, I mainly feel it in the things that he didn't do or he did or he neglected, which is like, you know, the legacy of the subway, which does a remarkable job of moving people around

that probably could have been better had it had the same kind of

champion in office for those 45 years.

That's something I sort of feel as a legacy of his.

The other part is like, I mean, his infrastructure, how is it doing these days?

I mean,

and the totality of his impact, you know, even from this congestion pricing thing, which this stop and start planned for a decade, you know, all that sort of stuff, is

really something that's really

he built that too.

Like the opposition that is built into that is Robert Moses' fault, basically.

Good point that the things, it's like not just the things he built, but the environment that he left behind politically as well.

And, you know, emotionally, the world that people grew up in and now that's in New York, and that's the world that they assume.

And they get mad at changes.

And it's like a multifaceted impact.

And you could point to the fact that like it takes forever to get from Queens over to the east side of the city and then over the west side like that's that's on the subway like that's like that's still a legacy that the subway system didn't get built out the way that it probably should have or maintained the way and it's a legacy of choices.

But then there's the ironic, ironically, I was thinking the piece of the of it that he was so excited to do, which I think would actually would have been the first thing.

that would have been replaced is that midtown expressway that would go through buildings because he was so he was so enamored of this idea.

And I have to imagine that if the moment he died, they would have been like, tear that down, can't have it.

No, thank you.

This is not working.

Every now and then a car just accidentally flies off of this expressway into Midtown.

Like we can't have this anymore.

I mean, someone has mentioned in the chat that he might be jealous of collecting the tolls on all that congestion pricing.

If he could,

yeah.

If he could have collected whatever, I don't even know how many dollars it is.

Many, many dollars.

$9.

I wonder if he would have had this real battle of wills of like, I want the money, but I also want the cars to get in more easily.

You know, because his tools were relatively inexpensive, but it would have been hard.

I think in the end, the money would have went out, though.

Yeah, yeah.

So from specific Andrew, he says,

when I visited the power plant in Niagara, this is one of the things he built that remains.

I said to my partner, I'm pretty sure that thing is named after Robert Moses, but the book hasn't gotten to it yet.

But the book never did,

which is an ongoing joke that we keep on making when it comes to this book.

It's so funny how much more he actually did, which is hilarious.

That there is a whole chapter about Shakespeare in the park and the argument over that and this enormous power dam that I have to imagine the environmental impact is probably huge.

I have to imagine the impact on people's lives in terms of bringing electricity to people was probably huge.

And Carol was like, no, no, no.

Was it in New York City?

No, thanks.

Not interested.

Don't worry about it.

Was it at least in the Long Island area?

No.

Okay.

Never mind.

Forgot it.

It's such a, there are times when I love this book so much, and it's so full of things, and it's so big that you don't want more stuff stuffed into it.

But there are times when it is like the once-in-a-generation historical literature version of the New Yorker cover, where it's a New Yorker's view of the world, and the street you live on is huge, and a block away is a little bit smaller.

And then somewhere in the distance is like the rest of the country.

And then beyond that is the dot that says Asia, you know?

And that's like, there's times when the book is a little bit like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Where everything, you know, like

north of the Bronx is like upstate New York, you know.

So really, it would bother people.

I'd be like, oh, that person lives upstate now.

And they're like, no, they live like in Westchester.

That's not that far upstate.

Well, yeah, but it's north of the city.

This question is from Kiss GZ.

I'm interested in how the changes Moses has brought about relate to the city's fiscal crisis in the mid-70s.

In the book, Fear City, this is not directly explained, but I suspect that the two stories are very much connected.

President Ford and his circle was convinced that the city had brought its problems on itself through heedless profligate spending.

And I presume that spending was mostly Moses.

Yet, interestingly, he is only mentioned twice in that book, once as the legendary planner, as if he had nothing to do with what happened in 1975.

Do you have any thoughts on this, Elliot?

I do indeed have thoughts on this, Roman.

I mean, the main thing is that I think it's not quite fair, I think, to say New York is out of money because Robert Moses spent all the money.

Because so much of the money he was playing with didn't come straight from the city's coffers.

You know, a lot of it was federal money.

A lot of it was triboro money.

But I think that he is related to it in that the real issue with the city in the 70s, much of it, was not just that it was out of money, but also but that it did not have the infrastructure to care for the people who lived there and to provide the services they needed.

And that is very much a Robert Moses' legacy, that transit around the city was difficult, that public recreation for the lesser served portions of the city continued to be lesser served.

That really poured into the social and cultural issues the city was dealing with, which are the things that led to so much of the like the middle class leaving the city and things like that, and brought us to the

period in New York history, which I was born just too late to be a part of, but which I grew up hearing stories about so much, the kind of like 70s into the very early 80s New York, where it seems like you were either going to see the first show of the greatest bands that ever played, or you were getting mugged at knife point.

And there was no, that was your day.

There was the two things that you were doing and nothing else.

You know, you spent your, your morning at the forefront of an artistic revolution, and then at night, someone hit you in the back of the head and stole your rent money.

Like that was, that was it.

Like that was New York.

And like the New York my parents would tell me about where they'd be like, oh yeah, yeah, well, we couldn't walk by Port Authority because there was a guy who stood on the street corner and just punched people in the stomach.

And it's like, oh, this was like a, this was like a local fixture.

This was not the thing that happened one day.

So, so the city that he left behind is part of it, but I don't know if it's necessarily money-specific.

You had a point that you made

throughout the podcast, Roman, I think, bears on here about New York's relationship with money.

Well,

the common theme every chapter is New York was broke, like constantly.

So, I have a hard time believing that.

I mean, he maybe made it more broke, but it was constantly broke, which is part of his power.

He was able to secure this money from, you know, a lot of it, federal and outside sources, and from

tolls and stuff like that and bonds and these perpetual forever existing public authorities.

And so that can't be new.

He just was

a certain type of extractor of resources.

And that's fine when you're in the good extracting stage where there's plenty, but then you hit a wall and all of a sudden that extraction has its most

painful cost.

And I think he was running out his string in the 70s, even if he was an immortal who could live forever and keep going.

He just couldn't extract anymore.

He had squeezed the juice out of the city and was like, ah, but I still, I mean, the fact that his, it feels like his dreams went from the visionary dreams of a young man who is seeing things on a scale no one else can see, to the visionary dreams of a kind of a tyrant who is he realizes he has the power to do things that he can't see, to the dreams of a madman who is like,

why does the city need people when it could have roads?

Like, he had one solution for everything, and it was roads, and he eventually went, it seems to have gone mad with it.

And so I think you're right.

By the 70s, he was less of a, he was still an entity to be feared, but not as much of

the creator that he once was.

But you can definitely feel the city of the 70s that the book, Fear City in the Question, is evoking in the title, which is The Fall of New York, which you wouldn't write that as a subtitle today.

And there's a certain,

you can tell the moment it was written in because there's a lot of Robert Carroll going, you know, like the way things are bad now, you know, which

really changed in these 50 years in interesting ways.

You know, it didn't get all better, but it definitely changed.

And so it's sort of interesting.

Yeah, that the book is, I think, while he's writing it, he's very much thinking of it as a work of reporting of the now and the things that led to the now.

There's the criticism of the book that's come up on the 50th anniversary, which is like, it's not as accurate about New York's state as it once was.

It's like, well, yeah, dude, I hope not.

It's 50 years.

Like, if the city can't rebound in a half a century, then nobody should live there.

But he's very much writing it from the point of view of this is the world that Moses made and we're living in it and it stinks, as opposed to now when it's so much more of that is in the, in the rearview mirror, because we're all driving on expressways because that's the subway is not working right now.

Right.

This question is from Captain Ben.

As someone who grew up in Cincinnati, every time I think of a massive highway that cuts through the center of downtown, I now think of Moses and his acolytes as they spread his gospel over the country.

Has anyone found evidence or history on the direct impact Moses' infrastructure philosophy had on other U.S.

cities during the mid-century?

Yeah, that's something we talked about with Robert Caro, and it's something that comes up a lot of like,

how important is this, Robert Moses, really?

Because this was happening in a lot of places.

And Robert Caro's response was that

Moses taught people that you could destroy neighborhoods with little or no repercussions.

in a modern democracy.

You could do that as an imperial power.

Yeah, it's a talentarian.

There's a real question, I think, of this is something that comes up a lot when people talk, I'm almost bringing up Abraham Lincoln.

Something when people talk about Abraham Lincoln is like, how much was he guiding events?

How much was he guided by events?

And with Moses, it's kind of similar that he is someone who was very much at the forefront of this switch to a road-based lifestyle, especially in cities.

And he was someone who was working on, again, the biggest showpiece in America, New York City.

But at the same time, he was like in the mainstream.

He was not pushing against the currents of the culture.

This was something that everybody was interested in.

I mean, this is, he's working before the federal interstate highway system, but that feeling is in the air.

And that, like, the 39 World's Fair, there's the Futurama exhibit, which is kind of an exhibit of what life will be like in the future.

And driving, commuting between work and home over highways with cars is a big part of that.

I mean, it's a general motors thing, which is what, which is why it was a big part of it.

But

the idea of living a highway driving-based lifestyle

and being able to get in and out of cities easily is already in the

in the zeitgeist, but he manages to like capture that zeitgeist and work with it on a level that nobody else is.

And

a comparison that came up when we were kind of discussing this earlier today, which I think is still relevant, is that there's a lot of musicians who are kind of doing the same kind of thing as Taylor Swift, but they're not doing it in a way that connects to people the same way.

Nobody would would say Taylor Swift is like a revolutionary artist who's changing the rules of the game, but she does what she's doing at this level that resonates and impacts clearly at a higher level for people.

And so in many ways, I think Ramrose is similar.

He's just that he's the Taylor Swift of mid-century highway building.

You know, he's doing what everybody else is doing, but he's just doing it so much better.

You know,

he's doing it on a global scale.

All I see now in the chat is several people are typing.

Yeah, they're very, yeah.

They're very, I'm not saying Taylor Swift is bad.

This is a, oh, I should never say it.

Sorry.

Oh my goodness.

Okay.

Look, we hear, my kids are fans of hers.

We hear a lot of it at the house.

I love Taylor Swift.

You're alone on this island.

I didn't think she was bad.

This is a compliment to Robert Moses.

I see.

I see.

The only thing I've seen like this is when we did a flophouse show once where we did the movie Spice Worlds, and one of my co-hosts mentioned that the Spice Worlds were kind of an artificially brought together band, and the audience booed him so hard.

I heard that episode.

That's so good.

Yeah.

Oh, so funny.

Okay, so from JML 18, how do you think we find the balance between Moses' Build First, Ask Questions, later style of infrastructure projects and what many see today as over-regulation, which can stymie attempts to undertake majority infrastructure improvements in modern cities?

That's a great question.

I feel like I'm not, that's above my pay grade.

Roman,

you've been hosting

an urban design and

so forth podcast for a while.

I think you could talk more about it.

Yeah, I mean, you hear this a lot that

there should be a Robert Moses for X, or there would be good to have Robert Moses pointed in the direction that you want things to go.

And I understand that.

I do think that the nature nature of politics is this push and pull of regulation and deregulation.

And

see, I still kind of have a way of blaming Robert Moses for a lot of this, which is like, you know, he broke systems to make things dependent on him and his choices and roads and stuff.

And so we had to fight back by, you know, creating things that were more fair and more democratic.

And so

he's kind of at fault for both aspects, you know, for both building things with sort of undemocratically acquired power, and also he's at fault for democratically acquired power for not being able to do things quickly because we were trying to stop future Robert Moses in a lot of these ways.

I get it that maybe it is too far, and

you just have to go to

or listen in on a Berkeley city council meeting of NIMBYs and go, like, why can they stop things from happening that need to happen?

And then you read a similar thing happening in the power broker, and you wish that those voices had more power in that situation.

So, the hard part is, is like,

there is the right balance to be made.

It would all work better

if more people focused and voted on local elections and paid attention to these things.

If they were the people you agreed with, Roman.

Boom, gotcha.

No, but I mean, but I think both.

Like, you just pay attention to it and try to make it responsive.

But you do, you need to push and pull.

Like, I think all good design comes from top-down planning and also a ground-up, a little bit more informal process of the citizens, you know, making their neighborhood as good as they can.

But we do get out of balance pretty quickly and easily, and that's a shame.

But a lot of the time when I'm reading this book, I'm kind of grateful that Robert Moses

wasn't more evil, you know?

Given all that stuff, what he could have done and that he was still pretty dedicated to parks and things like that is kind of amazing.

You could totally imagine a worse person taking way more liberties and really truly destroying everything and also like self-enriching to an extent that was absolutely

mind-boggling.

I think it's it's it's the only thing I have to say about it is that it's so hard to find that balance, I think, because you can't tell the future.

So you don't know the consequences of a thing until it's done, really.

You can guess at them, you can estimate them, but it's so hard.

And so it is easy for us to look back at the power broker and be like, this is a good thing.

This is a bad thing.

I wish he'd done this.

I wish he, I'm glad he did this.

I wish he hadn't done this.

But it's harder to know that when someone is bringing a new plan to you.

I mean, sometimes it's very clear what things are not good.

And sometimes it seems really clear what things are good, but it's just hard.

You never can know what

the real impact of a thing is going to be until

years after the fact.

And we don't have time travel yet.

But when we do, our decisions are going to be a lot easier to make.

So much easier.

More of your power broker questions answered after the break.

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Jane asks, a mock-up of Lincoln Center is at the opening shot of the 2021 remake of Westside Story.

Looking at the original 1961 film, I learned that the locations used were actual slum clearance sites from Moses projects.

Is there any other media that since Reading the Powerbroker has you shouting, Robert Moses, shaking your fist at the screen?

That's a good question.

I feel like I now look at the shot in the producers where Gene Wilder and Zero Mostel are standing at the fountain in Lincoln Center and the fountain goes off when he goes, I want everything I've ever seen in the movies.

Like, and they decide they are going to steal money from all these old ladies to fund this bad play.

Like now I think of that more as a Robert Moses moment, you know, but I have to admit, when I watch movies set in New York, I spend so much time trying to identify places I've been in person that

I don't always have the historical view of things.

Instead, I'm like, I know that street corner.

There's a very bad low-budget movie from years ago called Robot and the Family that was shot almost entirely in one stretch of street of Broadway between like 14th Street and 12th Street, where it's just a bunch of antique stores.

And I was like, at the time, and I was like, I used to walk that street multiple times a day when I was a college student and watch it.

Now I love this movie, even though it's terrible because it brings me back to those days, you know.

But what about you?

Is there anything as someone who didn't live in New York and so don't have that personal bias blinding you?

Are there things that you've seen since then where you're like, that's a Robert Moses thing?

Well, one of my favorite movies is the Bill Murray movie Quick Change, where he robs a bank, dressed as a clown, and is trying to get out of the city.

And it's all very confusing about how you get to the BQE and how you do this and how you do that.

And I never knew until this reread that the villain of that movie is actually Robert Moses.

That's the reason why they can't make it out of the city.

And it makes me appreciate that movie even more.

But that's one I can think of.

Anytime I see a kind of

especially those movies from, you know, like I love those movies from the 70s and I just feel like that's the city he created.

And it's sort of, I definitely feel them when I watch

like Taking Promise 1, 2, 3, and stuff like that.

Oh, well, the greatest movie of all time to take that one to three.

Yeah,

I was going to make a mean joke about you.

I'm like, well, I know Roman, as someone who's not from New York, when you're watching movies that in New York, you're mostly going, Garsh, look at how big those buildings are.

That's right.

Look at them big buildings.

Yeah.

There's a little bit of talk in the chat about the Taking of Palm 123.

I will say, for anyone who wants a taste of that 70s New York, if you haven't seen the original Taking of Palm 123, it's such a concentrated, like straight shot of adrenaline of being in New York in 1974.

I really love it so much.

It's such a window for me into that time.

Anyway, so I recommend it.

Oh, it's so, so good.

I re-watched it again while we were

doing this project, and it's, it just totally stands up.

It also makes you realize how much the subway has actually changed.

You know, just like the amount of graffiti, the amount of like stuff that was happening, just like the subways, you know, definitely have, you know, horrible attacks happen still, not to minimize them, but they've, but they've,

it's not just in stasis and just gotten worse and worse and worse.

They've actually like improved the subways and their function quite a bit.

I remember watching, when I was a kid, we used to watch Coming to America a lot, and there's a scene where they get on a subway car, and it's the outside of it's covered in graffiti.

And I remember so well the moment that I saw that movie when, like, I've seen it many times, I've been to New York many times, and seeing it and being like, Oh, well, they're not dirty like that anymore.

Like, I remember when they were, but suddenly it was like, Oh, yeah, the last time I was on the subway was much cleaner.

This movie is not up to date anymore.

Coming to America is not up to date, you know, ripped from the headlines anymore.

Um, you know, the city is always changing.

As we've said, it's not the same city that it was 50 years ago, and that's mostly a good thing, and in some ways, not a good thing, thing, but

everything's always changing.

Related to movies, Ken Stigner on the chat is asking, I'm curious about your thoughts on Ed Norton's Motherless Brooklyn, which R.M.

is depicted as Moses Randolph in the book.

Did you see Motherless Brooklyn?

Yes, I did.

I was so, it's such a curious movie to me because I'm a huge fan of the original author of the Raleigh Roads book, Jonathan Leetham.

And that book is very much not about Robert Moses and is also not a period story.

It's set in the 1990s when it was written.

And Marlow Sworkland went through a long development process to become a movie.

And it feels very clear that at some point Ed Norton read the Powerbroker and was like, that's what the movie needs to be about.

And so he's trying his best.

And I think it's a not entirely successful movie, but I think it is a very good movie.

He's trying his best to make for New York what Chinatown is to Los Angeles.

This kind of like secret history of why the city is the way it is and how it's built on the work of a sinister force, you know, and it's a really well-made movie.

It doesn't quite do everything it needs to do, but I'm curious what you think about it because I do think it is a good movie.

Well, I just remember showing up to it and I read Jonathan Letham's book and really loved it.

And then you go to see Motherless Brooklyn and the first scene is the first scene from the power broker and you're like, what is going on?

Like it's like almost exactly the same.

You went up to the theater lobby and you're like, someone switched the titles on the movies.

This is not the one I thought I would see.

And so I did not expect it at all.

It was very strange to me.

I didn't know like, you know, like copyright-wise, it's like, I guess it's a thing that happened in history, but it was like, so, it was just weird.

It was like an adaptation of a scene from The Powerbroker.

And so I also just, it was kind of a delight to see it on screen, especially as a surprise.

We, we, you know, we had talked to Ed Norton's people about getting him on the show because I know he really, really cares about this stuff.

And, and obviously, like, he kind of wedged it into this other movie for no like apparent reason.

It's not like you read that book and you're like, you know what?

There's an opportunity here to do a period piece about Robert Moses.

Like, it really does feel like he smuggled one book into another.

He literally took Miles Brooklyn's dust jacket and put it over the Powerbroker cover and then brought that into class, you know.

But like, but I thought it was fun.

And, you know, I think Ed Norton is really great.

I mean, I don't know.

I saw the Bob Dylan movie recently and he's so good as Pete Seeger.

Like, it's really something.

Like, he's usually so nervy and he has so much energy and sort of ferocity in him.

And he plays this like, like, the peaceful calm of Pete Seeger.

And this way, I've never seen his like, he's just like, his whole face is relaxed and his voice is relaxed and stuff.

And it's like, I just, I admire him greatly.

So I would have loved to talk to him about it.

I just, I just remember being just kind of gobsmacked by it.

It's just like, like, whoa, this is weird.

But yeah, I was just kind of delighted by it.

And I think it's a good little window into it.

And if it brings you to the Powerbroker, then that's great.

You know.

I mean, if it brings you to PowerPoint, that's wonderful.

If it brings you to Jonathan Lethanworks, you know, if you go from that to reading Fortress of Solitude, you you know, then that's fantastic.

Also, a really fantastic book, which brings me to kind of the final question that people have been asking us is:

from Ben G, I feel immensely grateful for this project to bring the Powerbroker into my life.

But what now?

What are some of your favorite books?

I have lots of them.

Name a few.

Give us some.

I guess my favorite.

I'm trying to have a hard time.

They really are depending on my mood.

But my favorite other big long book uh that i think is worth reading probably multiple times is lonesome dove i think it's just fun to read i think it's really really enjoyable um the lbj books are rip roaring good like you know i highly recommend just like going straight through and keep and read them and i honestly think i don't i know it's like

i don't know if it's sacrilege on this final episode but i think the lbj books are are collectively don't say it roman don't say it no but i they were saying you've made the point to me roman which i think is true that he is he is even more in control of his abilities because of the practice he had with the power broker.

But those are great books.

It's very intimidating because they're huge, but they're so readable, those Lindy Johnson books.

They're super readable.

A lot of the stuff that I think...

Like there's some confusion that we talked through of the timeline jumping that happens to make the power broker work, which he just seems to have smoothed out a way to do that a little less jarring sometimes

in the LBJ books, where you always kind of know where you are.

He has more of a window into LBJ's thoughts,

and it becomes a very emotional, very weird, like you spend a long time inside of LBJ's head, which does not feel fun exactly, because he's so anxious and needy and greedy.

And we never asked this, we never got to the point, but I, but I kind of, I always kind of wanted to ask Robert Caro what it felt like to be inside of LBJ's head, because it doesn't seem like a fun place to spend a lot of time.

So anyway, the LBJ books are great.

If you like other New York books, I think Paul Auster is like one of the great chroniclers of Brooklyn.

I think he's really, really fantastic.

Other historians, Barbara Tuchman was my first sort of like love of a history writer.

I think The Proud Tower is...

exceptional.

I think Joe Lapore's, it's almost the opposite, Joe Lepore's These Truths is a real like survey of American history and is super fun, really, really fun.

My other favorite sort of like journalism book is Ted Conover's New Jack, where he goes undercover as a corrections officer.

That one's phenomenal.

What about you?

I should have put more time into answering, into thinking about this because

it's a question that is a good question to ask.

But the nonfiction book that I think I probably

have read the most times is The Journalist and the Murderer, which I love.

I mean, it helps that it's a very short book, but I love that book.

And it made me think so differently about the power difference between people interviewing other people, but also just how people interact with each other and what the actions of someone who instinctively starts to want the approval of another person, how it changes them, you know, and how it changes the way they act.

I love that book so much.

That's a weird book.

That is a weird book.

The whole story of it is very strange.

Yeah.

But the fact that it's a book about another book, about a true crime case, and the author becomes part of the dynamic of these people, you know?

It is so weird.

Like, I just read it recently for the first time, and I was just like, this is freaky.

Like, this is a real, like, it's just sort of like new journalism, you know, hitting at this moment.

Like, it just feels like the apex of like, I'm the person in the story, affecting the story, feeding back to the story.

The subject is talking to me about their disappointment and me, you know, like all sorts of stuff.

Like, it's really twisty and strange.

It's the exact, almost the exact opposite of the power broker where Robert Carroll was like, it was said to the author that da-da-da, like he refused to even name himself.

And James was like, when I was talking to this guy, but when it comes to, I read a lot of fiction.

And I mean, my favorite books of all time are like, I Love The Man Who Was Thursday by G.K.

Chesterton.

I love Alice in Wonderland.

And probably the book above all books for me is still maybe The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

by Douglas Adams, which is, I just am re, I'm now reading those aloud to my older son after rereading them all last year.

I turned 42 last year, and so I was like, for my 42nd year, I got to read the Hitchhiker's Guide again.

It's the 42 books.

That's right.

And that's a book that I find, it's a short book that I genuinely laugh out loud at, but I find so much meaning in it.

There's so much in it that I find very rich and meaningful to me.

And that has helped me through times that I need help to get through.

And so those are the ones that kind of come to the top of my mind, but I should have thought of more nonfiction books.

I mean, favorite nonfiction book other than that, Journalist of the Murray is Powerbroker all the time, all the way, just PB, Powerbroker.

I mean, it's still my favorite, too.

I just noticed his developing craft as he gets through the other books is, and each of them is quite a bit different.

You know, the first book kind of feels most like the powerbroker, a lot of deep dive and sort of history to explain things.

The second book is like basically a thriller about

him stealing his first congressional election

and the sort of like putting out the pasture of Coke Stevenson.

And then the Master of the Senate Senate is this like, is basically like a large book wrapped around a 350-page history of

the entire Senate body history.

And it's just like, it's just amazing.

Like they're really, really amazing.

I think another way, if you want to, short histories, I think sort of an undersung history author I like is Paul Collins.

He wrote a book called Benvard's Folly, which I've always just kind of loved.

And I just like his storytelling style.

There's so many good books.

If you want to read a book that is a different take on urban municipal infrastructure and its failings, then I think I would kind of recommend the first four volumes of Katsuhiro Otomo's manga, Akira, which is ostensibly about psychic children and biker gangs.

But under the surface, and also his horror story, Domu, they are both about...

massive infrastructure failures for ordinary urban dwellers in Tokyo.

Domu is about this this huge housing complex that has, again, has an old man who's a kind of psychic murderer.

And Kira, again, is about psychic children and bike gangs.

But so much of it is about

people getting rebelling or being crushed by systems,

urban infrastructure systems, and what happens when those systems are either not functioning right or when they fail outright, like when a psychic child unleashes a wave of TK force, which levels the city.

But if you to look at those from a municipal infrastructure point of view, I think there's a lot to be found in there.

And also,

they're just top-notch action, you know, top-notch comics action, to be sure.

So we have one little bonus question that Isabella has put in the chat from Schultz saying,

I know a few people who heard about this whole thing recently and are planning to read along with the podcast this year.

How does the prospect of the breakdown live and beyond 2024 make you feel?

Makes me feel great.

I don't know.

Why would it be bad?

I don't have to do it.

I allow it.

I mean, I like that it's there as a resource.

I mean, mean, I feel like if you had to read this for school and wanted some companionship for it, like, I feel like it really could be this nice supplement that goes along with it.

And it does have the impromptu of Robert Caro,

who has heard many of them, I think, or at least he claims to have.

And he thinks that our analysis is

pretty good.

Like, he's never bickered too much with it, except for the one time that Elliott said, I think this is really funny.

And he goes, that's not funny at all.

That's really serious.

I think it's powerful.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, yeah.

That was trouble for me.

But yeah, I think it's, I love the idea that this, that this, hopefully as a series, will not disappear or evaporate, that people like, people have it in the future.

And I, I always thought as a writer that my, my legacy would be in television or in books.

And I'm coming more and more around to the idea that I think my creative legacy, if I have one, is probably going to be in podcasting.

And the idea that when the 100th anniversary of the power broker comes along, in theory, someone could still pick up this podcast and listen to it long while reading it.

That's very, very special to me.

If we can,

the metaphor in my head has always been that we are like Ramoras, the fish that stick their heads to sharks and ride on the shark and eat what falls out of the sharks' mouths.

If we can stick like Ramoras on the Powerbroker and be in kind of unofficial,

semi-authorized

compliment to it, then that's wonderful.

Yeah, I totally agree.

And at some point, I think

they exist in the feed there for 99% invisible, invisible so we can monetize them and and put ads on them.

I I do think at some point we will break them out on their own so that they can be sort of like found more easily and not to wade through as many uh ninety nine percent invisible episodes to find them.

And uh I do think that that kids ten years from now will find the show and hopefully find it, you know, like put it on their and and teachers will put on their curriculums.

And that would be awesome.

I w I would I would love that.

Um I'm still delighted when I have six children under my care and they sometimes tell me when they get assigned a 99% invisible episode.

And I'm always really delighted

when I hear about that.

And so I would love to hear it.

Fantastic.

Nobody assigns Flophouse episodes.

Nobody has yet done any

troll 2 studies where they need to hear our take on it.

Well, that's their loss.

There should be plenty of Troll 2 studies.

Yeah, people specializing in Nicolas Cage.

What's the word?

When it's a temporary thing, miscellaneous.

No, that's not what I'm looking for.

Never mind.

I can't think of the word I'm thinking about.

So, thanks everyone for joining us.

It's been a real delight.

We'll still be on the Discord.

Like, if you want to ask questions about the power broker, we'll still figure out maybe how we're going to work together and do a similar project in the future.

So, we'll let you know when that happens.

But, in general, just catch up on the show in the feed, listen again, tell friends about it.

That would be really, really fantastic.

And be sure to check out the rest of 9 API's episodes because we talk about this stuff a lot that

will interest you.

So I hope that you also listen to the original recipe 9MPIs because they mean a lot to me.

And a lot of really, really smart people

outside of myself put those together.

And also, you should listen to the Flophouse.

Yeah, why not?

If you want the opposite of the podcast, which is, and I don't mean by the opposite, I don't mean me not talking very much, which is, you're not going to get that.

It's just going to get me talking too much.

But the Flophouse podcast,

I've been referring to it as America's first bad movie podcast, probably, because I'm not sure.

But we're one of the first, and we're still going strong.

I realized last night as I was going to sleep late from my work that in a couple of years we'll have been doing it for 20 years, which seems crazy.

We just plan to keep doing it as long as we can.

If you could check out the Flophouse podcast, please do.

I realize I have another.

podcast I can mention on the Smartless Network, which is called Clueless, which is just a, it's like a 10 to 12 minute puzzle podcast where I ask the questions and Sean Hayes Hayes answers the questions.

It's really good.

I like it a lot.

Thank you.

It's a fun one to do.

We're recording more tomorrow, which means I have to write some more.

And I currently have a series coming out from DC Comics.

It's the Harley Quinn book.

That's right.

Harley Quinn, America's favorite kind of anarchic lady clown.

I'm writing her book for, I guess, the foreseeable future.

And I've managed to make this, the first kind of 12 issues that I'm working on of it mostly about gentrification and like her trying to her trying to stop a developer from changing the last, from getting rid of the last block of her old neighborhood that reminds her of her own neighborhood.

So her old, I'm like, I'm like, oh, I managed to get a little bit of like kind of power broker adjacent into the Harley Quinn comic book.

I'm very excited about this.

You should lift a whole scene from the power broker and put it in the middle of it.

I should just start putting, I should just start putting

words from Maros in the mouth of the villain character.

So that's on comic book store shelves once a month is Harley Quinn.

Awesome.

Well, thank thank you again, everyone, for being part of this project with us.

And thank you, Elliot, so much.

It's just been such a fun year.

I've loved working with you.

I've been an admirer of your work for a very long time.

We've been friends that didn't really hang out very much for a very long time.

We've talked a lot about making plans to hang out and it never kind of came together.

And so I'm so glad that we had this opportunity to get together at least once a month to talk about something we both really care about.

So thank you, everybody, and thanks for listening.

It's been really a blast.

Thank you so much.

This bonus episode of the 99% Invisible Breakdown of the Power Broker was produced by Isabel Angel, edited by Committee, music by Swan Real, mixed by Martine Gonzalez.

Make sure you get your Power Broker Breakdown merch.

There's the Robert Moses band t-shirt with all the dates of the episodes and chapters on the back, so you never forget how much you read in 2024.

We've got a great, sturdy tote bag that you can carry.

Any of the books that we recommended today.

At the time of this recording, the Power Broker Challenge coins are in stock.

We also got some great merch that's just branded to 99% Invisible.

It's all really good stuff.

It's all at 99pi.org/slash store.

99% Invisible's executive producer is Kathy Tu.

Our senior editor is Delaney Hall.

Kurt Colstead is the digital director.

The rest of the team includes Chris Barupe, Jason DeLeon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Jacob Medina Gleason, Christopher Johnson, Babylon Lay, Kelly Prime, Joe Rosenberg, and me, Roman Mars.

The 99% Invisible logo was created by Stephan Lawrence.

The art for this series was created by Aaron Nestor.

We are part of the Sirius XM podcast family, now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora Building in beautiful, uptown, Oakland, California.

You can find me on the show on Blue Sky and on our Discord server.

We have a link to that, as well as every past episode of 99PI.

And please download many, many episodes of 99pi.

Please,

it would mean a lot.

You can find them at 99pi.org.

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