The 99PI Anniversary Special: 15 for 15

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This is 99% Invisible.

I'm Roman Mars.

So here's the thing.

This year marks the 15th anniversary of 99% Invisible, which is honestly kind of hard to believe.

If 99% Invisible were a person, it would be old enough to have a provisional driver's license in some states, or celebrate a quincinera.

That's kind of all you can do at age 15 in this country, but still.

The first episode of 99% Invisible was released on September 3rd, 2010.

And since then, we've had 15 years of stories about design, architecture, and the choices we make that shape our world.

15 years of taking the time to stop and read the plaque.

15 years of you, our listeners, sending us the most incredible observations about the built environment that we never would have noticed on our own.

To mark this milestone, we thought we'd do something a little different.

Instead of our usual deep dive into one particular design story, I'm going to answer 15 questions submitted by our listeners and the staff about the show, about the field of design, and about me.

And to help me navigate this whole thing, I'm joined by 99 PI producer Vivian Lay, who will be moderating the questions.

Hi, Roman.

Happy birthday.

Thank you so much.

I'm a little nervous, but

I think we'll get through this together.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean,

granting me the power to choose these questions was a very bold move on your part.

So we'll see how this goes.

We got a lot of fun questions.

Some of them were submitted through email.

Some came through social media, our Discord server.

Oh, nice.

And a bunch of them I just made up because I thought it'd be really funny for you to answer on Mike.

So yeah, I'm ready to jump in if you are.

I am ready.

Let's go for it.

Okay, great.

So the first question came from Taylor from New Jersey.

Shout out to New Jersey, my second favorite state.

But Taylor actually has kind of a doozy of a question for you.

They ask, a city hires you to make their residents' lives 10% better without spending any money.

You could only rearrange, remove, or repurpose things that already exist.

What do you do?

Without spending any money?

No, no.

And you can't create anything.

It's basically just redoing what already exists.

Okay.

So

I have one idea.

I don't know if it completely fulfills the idea of no money, but if rearranging, removing, repurposing works, I feel like all those things involve like a little bit of money, honestly.

But like, I think that I think the best way to make a city better would be dedicated.

rapid bus lanes, which I think if you have the buses and you have the lanes and you just need to paint them and like, you know, know, mark them,

I think it kind of fulfills the mandate of the question.

But that would be like regular, take every bus you have, school buses,

public transit buses, and just have a lane, have them run every 10 minutes between places that are important.

You will make a city tremendously better.

I don't know if it's really free, but I also like...

not to quibble with Taylor, just in general, the whole concept of like fixing stuff without money is like a thing that I find is like a weird political thing that people talk about.

That is like, no, we actually throw money at things that we value and that's okay.

But I would throw a little bit of money at this.

I think it's much cheaper than light rail and various other solutions.

It really is a rearrangement of resources and the emphasis on making a city a better place.

But rapid, very frequent bus routes between places would be huge.

Dedicated bus lanes.

That means like they run smoothly because there's no other cars in the lane.

I think that's how I'd make a city better.

Almost any city would be made better by that.

Yeah, it's pretty good.

So, the next question is actually a voice message.

So, I'm going to play it for you.

Hey, this is Taya from Seattle, and I'm really excited to congratulate the entire team at 99% Invisible.

And thank you for being such an awesome part of my life for the past 15 years.

And I'm just asking for 15 more.

My question is for Roman.

I'm wondering, in the time that you've been doing this, has your definition of design changed at all?

And if so, how?

Thanks.

I always interpreted it pretty broadly, even when the show started.

But I think in the beginning, when you're trying to,

you know, like when you're trying to sort of present a thesis to an audience, you keep it a little bit tighter with like buildings and cities and product design and flags and things with visual design.

And I always knew that I

thought of design quite broadly and the reason why I chose the name 99% invisible and not a blank design or the design of things or whatever was because I thought that that name was so evocative and open-ended to the idea of what we could include in it in terms of design.

So I always thought of it pretty broadly.

It has gotten more broad over time.

Like when I think about like, there's, I mean, I never would have conceived of the quiet storm episode of Christopher's like in 99% Invisible, but I love it.

And I think that's, that's one of the things that's, that's the, the, the way that my definition of design has evolved is that as the show opened up and had more people in it and more brains on it, it, it has evolved because of their interests.

And then I'm such a fan of our staff that I just

I like to follow them wherever they go and it comes to this as a sort of the mandate of design and that has necessarily broadened it because there's just more minds on the show than than there was before so in that way it's it's evolved yeah um okay so next question uh this one came from our discord and it was from uh someone with the name y f n h catchy okay

so uh they are asking barring the noble funicular what's the one designed object that's fallen out of common use that you think deserves another chance

I mean, the first thing that comes to mind, and this is not, I don't, this is not a strongly held belief, but I think

cash

money, like paper money, like paper money.

Like, I know that I like all the tools of tapping and, you know, Venmo and various things, and I get it.

But I feel like we are going down a path of having our economy locked up by apps and things and the messiness of the economy and looseness of giving change and giving tips and paying for cash and not being banked.

And, you know, I

think that there's something that we will lose and

it has potentially like big downsides down the line.

I think that there's a there's kind of an inherent classism in the loss of cash.

I think that there's

I think there's a lot of control there that

I'm feeling queasy about when I see when I go to a place that says they don't accept any cash.

It's not a strongly held belief.

And I love all the conveniences.

I'm not saying that those things are bad.

I'm just saying that I think there's a cost.

I think there's a societal cost at risk when we lose cash completely.

I think that's actually a really great answer.

Okay, thanks.

It's a great answer because like...

I feel like every country too, when they print their own banknotes,

it's something like a little piece of artwork, you know?

Oh, that's another part of it that I wasn't thinking about, but like totally.

I think that like as much as I think our paper money is so boring and so awful, like that's the part I don't love.

Like I wish we would expand it to have like leaders in science and art and poets and stuff on our money the way every other country in the world does and better colors and everything.

You know, as a representation of kind of a civic pride, that's another huge loss.

Totally a huge loss.

But yeah, all around cash, like I feel like there's a, there's great opportunity there to, you know, to represent our, you know, our best selves.

And I also just think that the, the openness of cash as a system is super important.

And it'll be a shame if it's, if it goes away completely.

So our next question came from someone named Connor Hibbs.

He submitted this through email.

Okay.

He actually submitted two questions and cheated.

I'm going to ask one question.

We're running tight ship here.

I'm sorry, Connor.

So

what is something you come across in your everyday life that intrigues you, but you haven't created a story about?

Oh, I've had this long-standing desire to do a story about the Brannick device.

Do you know what the Brannock device is?

No, tell me more.

The Brannock device is that metal foot measuring tool that is in shoe stores.

Yes.

I've always kind of loved them.

I don't go to shoot stores much anymore, but as a kid, like they're fun to play with.

They're like heavy and they're fun to put your foot in.

And if they're kind of, they have an ASMR quality to them, like you mess with them and you're measuring something.

And I researched them once because I thought like

everyone loves this thing.

This is the greatest thing.

And I found that the Brannick Company of Syracuse, New York, that's the only thing they've made.

Like, and I think they've, they've, I don't even know, maybe 100 years.

I have no idea how long.

I can't remember the research I did on it, but, they've made one thing, and that is that thing.

They've made that metal thing in different colors, I think, recently.

But they make this one thing.

It's called the Brannick device.

It's named after the founder of the company.

And I'm just kind of fascinated by it.

For sure.

And it is, I never really thought about it.

It's in every single payless, every single shoe store.

And it's, they're solving a problem that you could solve with a ruler, essentially.

Something that you probably already have.

It does width and height of the shoe and then translates it into shoe size and stuff.

It's a pretty simple thing, but it's like the fact that it is so simple.

And there's like these, you know, there's new ways to kind of do it.

Like they have you stand on a digital thing and they do your measure your foot.

I've never really done those before, but I just think that there's an elegance to it.

There's like a weight to it and like a history to it that I just thought, oh, there's probably something cool here.

I just don't, I don't know what it is for sure.

But and I, so in a way, I can't,

I could never like pitch it to the staff.

I've told some people about it, but like,

I feel like I'd have to just go there and see what the vibe of those folks was like and see what their deal was.

One day.

One day.

One day.

Sunday there, one day.

Great.

Okay.

So our next question is another voice message.

It's from another Connor.

About a third of our listeners are named Connor.

So here's Connor.

Hey, Roman.

This is Connor Harrington, a longtime listener, first time caller from lovely Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Now, I'm a big fan of another pod that you made an excellent guest appearance on, blank check.

So my question for you is, what would 99PI's four favorites be if the pod had a letterboxed account?

Nice.

Should you explain letterboxed?

I'm not on letterboxed, but I know it.

So do you know what the question is asking you specifically?

I do.

You do.

Okay.

So for listeners who might not know, letterboxed is

like a social media platform, basically, where you'll post about movies that you watched since you can make lists of things that you just watched.

And basically, it's a way for like movie buffs to find each other and talk about movies and that kind of thing.

It's a way to turn an enjoyable thing into work as far as

Gamify.

Yeah.

Gamify is something that should be relaxing.

Exactly.

But yeah, it's a really popular platform with movie buffs.

And so there's something called the Letterboxd 4, where you will basically post, what are your top four movies?

And that doesn't mean what do you think are the best movies.

It's kind of what are your favorite movies.

And it's become a little bit of like a Myers-Briggs personality test.

So, what you put in your letterbox 4 kind of defines a little bit your personality.

So, I think Connor here is asking, what are 99 PI's letterbox for?

It's hard for me to know like what 99PI's one is.

I can kind of just do me, I guess, but maybe they'll give some window into 99pi.

But I always say that my favorite movie, it's very basic.

Jaws has been my favorite movie

forever because I think it is the best buddy comedy.

I think it's the best adventure movie.

I think it's one of the best horror movies.

And it's all rolled into one.

And when you watch it over and over again, different parts of it

are emphasized and you forget about little bits.

I've seen it so many times.

And

I'm stunned by in the beginning how much information is

conveyed about the island and the city as Brody is walking around and people are crosstalking over each other.

And

I just love it.

I love it.

I really like my favorite movies are all kind of sprawling, you know, like with different sections that have different tones.

Like I think another one is The Godfather.

Again, it's so basic.

Like I get it.

Like it's not,

it's not, I'm not trying to like, you know, you know, surprise you here necessarily.

I'm a huge Coen Brothers guy.

I think, I think, again, like I know that I have a hard time separating best and

favorite, but I think their best and my favorite is Fargo.

Again, it balances tons of tones.

I think it's super funny.

I think it's super harrowing.

And I think it tells you a lot about human nature, and I can watch it again and again.

The most recent movie that I would say the most 99 PI movie and the one that really like knocked me out recently is Perfect Days.

I think that's...

I haven't seen that one.

Oh, it's so good.

It's like Vim Benders, who's like a classic, like, you know, indie autour type, but it's about a guy who is just making his way cleaning public toilets in Tokyo.

And it's just, it's just the greatest.

It has great music.

It has a great vibe.

I think it could, like, if everyone watched it,

the world would be a better place.

Like, it really teaches you about

life and contentment.

And I just, I think it's super beautiful.

I mean, yeah, cleaning toilets in Tokyo set to nice music sounds like a 99pi episode.

It really

feels like it, like it, it has a kind of an underlying kind of spiritualism that I sometimes feel with 99pi.

Like specifically, like we would never do something so un-story-like as that one.

It's more of like a mood.

But it, it has just like appreciation of urban landscape, of ritual, of care.

You know, it has that feeling that I think people, people told me about the show, like I was, I don't know if I knew I was embedding it in the show in the very beginning, but this sort of sense that when you notice design details, you notice that you're being cared for by people, like you notice that things are being made better for you.

And

this is a movie that's just about that, about like somebody who's making the world better for other people and himself and finding great contentment in that and contentment in the world.

And it's just, it's just lovely.

Like you really should watch watch it.

I think you would like it.

And it has just the greatest soundtrack because he also, like, he lists, he buys cassette tapes, like used cassette tapes of like, of, um, you know, Velvet Underground and stuff like that.

The music is, you know, is so good.

So it's great.

Okay, I promise I'm going to watch this one, and I will post on our movie club Slack channel as soon as I watch this.

Okay, so the next question came from somebody here on staff at 99PI who you will probably recognize.

Hey, Roman, this is is Joe, you know me.

Now that you're such an expert on con law, if you were allowed to make one serious change to the Constitution, what would it be?

So that, of course, is our producer Joe Rosenberg.

I think you would just have to eliminate the Electoral College.

I think that's

it.

I mean, I think that everything good follows from that.

That sort of weird

proportional weight and sort of the tyranny of the minority and all that sort of stuff just goes away.

I'd much rather have the tyranny of the majority than the tyranny of the minority.

And a lot of the horrible stuff unwinds when you have the popular election of the president.

I think it's a huge, I think it's a huge thing.

That's what I changed first.

Got it.

So the next question is, what's a design-related hill you're willing to die on?

I don't want to die on any hill, I don't think.

I mean,

mostly when it comes to certain, you know, design things or design movements, like truly the answer is nothing.

Like I can be convinced by a good story or a good reason for any ugly thing to exist or whatever

if it's really thoughtful and done right.

That was the whole premise of the show, is that I wanted people, if they couldn't see the ugly building, because we were doing this on the radio or in podcasting, that they could learn to love it before they learned to hate it by seeing it.

You know what I mean?

But the one that's sticking with me, and this is going to be kind of abstract, and I don't know if this is going to come off well, is that

the idea of

the march to make things more and more efficient makes the world a worse place.

And I think of that this in terms of advertising.

Like

the idea that we were going to efficiently measure how effective advertising was through clicks and eyeballs and stuff erased all of the extra money that made all the journalism and all the pop culture that you cared about in the 20th century.

It made it all possible.

The inefficiency of the advertising system made everything good in this world.

Like, I think that the idea that you're trying to get things to be as efficient as possible is actually a terrible, world-destroying idea.

And all it does is like the most efficient restaurant is like a ghost kitchen that has no storefront because that's inefficient because it could be empty sometimes.

And it's a ghost kitchen that just ships you a thing and has a underpaid delivery person and brings it to your door and you never leave.

And this is stripping away all the goodness of the world and of cities.

Like, I think efficiency is absolute garbage.

And that is the design-related hill I'm willing to die on.

Like, I feel like you should always be allowing for great deals of inefficiency to make a nice design city, a nice design system, and make it work.

I really hate the focus on efficiency.

Not only does it

destroys all these good things, it takes money and gives it to the worst people, like the platform creators and the tech people instead of all the loose, like empty, like change and tips and things.

And it's not like things are cheaper or things are better.

They just, money is being transferred to the wrong people instead of creators and people who make the world a better place through community and

creation.

Yeah.

A more efficient world is a place where more people are left out, essentially.

Like the more people are.

You're going to be more inefficient, the more people that are included.

Yeah, totally.

You need friction.

You need the space of creation, that open freedom of an inefficient system where money sloshes around inside of it.

Like these frictions and inefficiencies are what make everything good about the world.

Yeah.

So if you can handle that big abstraction, that is the design-related hill I'm willing to die on.

I mean, that's a great spicy hill to die on.

So

I want to hear nothing about how good efficiency is nor the Department of Government Efficiency.

Nonsense.

That is the worst world that we're building when we do efficient things.

Yep.

Okay.

Next question.

So Gelsey Bennett on Instagram was wondering, when you were delivering pizzas in Memphis, what restaurant were you delivering for?

Okay, so my cousin, my beloved cousin, Lynn Cruthers, who passed away several years ago,

she

was the manager, regional manager of seven locations of Papa John's throughout Memphis.

Wow.

And so when I was extremely broke, I left grad school.

I was moving out to San Francisco to do something.

I didn't know what was going to happen.

I delivered pieces in her restaurants and I would say, so, so I mostly worked out of the Bartlett location that's kind of outside of Memphis.

The big store was the Midtown store.

I worked there a little bit and lived in Midtown.

So if you had Papa John's delivered to you in Midtown, but especially like Bartlett and Cordova, like kind of outside Memphis, like north of Memphis,

you may have gotten a pizza from me.

This would be in the mid 90s.

You were a Papa John's guy then?

I was a Papa John's guy.

I mean, I was never a Papa John's guy, but that was the job that was offered to me.

So, but in addition, if you grew up in Memphis in the 80s and 90s, I worked at a

my cousin Lan owned a video store called Video Stop in Germantown, Tennessee.

And you might have gotten movies rented by me.

And this was when I was way underage.

I worked there all growing up.

And then I worked at the Cecils bag and groceries.

So I worked a lot in Memphis during the summers and during breaks and stuff like that.

And then at one point, I was talking with Chuck Bryant of Stuff You Should Know, who grew up in Germantown, Tennessee, and was a huge movie fan and ended up moving out to Los Angeles to work in movies before he started his podcast career.

And we determined that he very likely was a customer at the video store that I was a clerk at.

Hilarious.

So side story,

Jason DeLeon, who's one of the producers here at the show, but Jason used to do a lot of Brazilian jiu-jitsu and go to tournaments.

He's gone to a few in Southern California.

And I, at one point,

would be like a videographer for a jiu-jitsu competition.

There's a chance that like I might have recorded Jason

like in some kind of like hammer lock or something.

That's awesome.

I love it.

Cool.

Okay.

So our next question came from our Discord again from a user named ASG1982.

And they ask,

what goes into making a 99 PI episode?

Obviously, there's research and a script, but what are the steps of how it happens?

And where do all the background people fit in?

It's kind of a big question, yeah, coming from a background person.

Well, that's funny because I've always thought, well, background person is not how I would phrase our staff.

One of the things I love about the show is I think that people have gotten to know all the producers and their personalities through the show.

I mean, definitely, like, I have a big imprint on the show, but I think

a lot of people's tastes and stuff comes out.

But, like,

what's really interesting is how much everyone works on every show in some way.

So the process of putting together an episode, I think, is kind of around 16 weeks at this point.

Like that's how we count on it.

They sometimes come in faster,

but we don't count on them being much quicker than that.

And a person pitches a story, it gets green lit, and then they go report it for a while, just like find out stuff, interview people.

They get assigned an editor, and that editor works with them to try to like realize the sort of the potential of both what they're finding and what people desired in the pitch.

And then it comes into form as a script that those two people mostly work on together.

And then that's the first time I see it at that point is when it's a script and we do what we call a read-to-tape, but I think most people might know it as like a table read, where essentially we just do it, we perform it live and a bunch of people are in the room.

I mean, this is all Zoom.

It used to be one, but now it's all on Zoom.

And people put notes like in a Google Doc all along as like we're performing it and playing the tape that's been cut.

And they're probably like, I don't know, when we're done, like hundreds of notes.

Hundreds of notes.

Hundreds of comments.

Yeah, hundreds of comments.

An overwhelming amount of comments.

In a way, it's like a pretty brutal process, but everyone is really kind.

And everyone, I think, is like,

we're trying to get to the best thing.

And I think that everyone has like been trained to recognize that this is good, you know, like this is a good process.

I've always liked our edits.

I've been in other rooms or heard horror stories of other rooms about edits where people leave crying and stuff like that.

That doesn't, I mean, people can leave frustrated because there's a lot to do and stuff like that.

But we don't have a culture of cutting each other down here.

No, no.

We do have some brutal shorthands for things.

Like over time, like,

so all the notes come in and sometimes they're like, oh, I like this person or this like this or we should move this part to here or whatever.

But we have some shorthands in the edit.

So there's like

somebody will put in CWGHF.

Did I do that right?

C-W-G-H-F?

Which is Can We Get Here Faster?

Yeah.

Which is one of those ones where like,

like,

and it comes up in every single script.

It's like, when is it going to happen?

So Can We Get Here Faster is one.

Oh, Emmett's, I love this one.

Relentlessly Chronological is something that Emmett said once.

Devastating, devastating comment.

And it has to do with like these histories.

Sometimes we do these long histories and you just feel like you're plodding along.

It just captured something that I.

felt for a long time, but never

put words to it.

But that sort of sense of just like, oh, but if I skip from 900 AD to 1800, I have to put these like three things in between, but like you feel that they're unnecessary.

And sometimes we just free ourselves from this idea.

It's just like, instead of being relentlessly chronological, just do the parts that are important and fun and for the story and stop being so relentlessly chronological.

Like sometimes the driving force of the action is time.

And sometimes it's the thesis of the collection of things so that you lead with that first.

And so it's just a matter of mixing things up so you don't feel like you're just reading a timeline of events.

So relentlessly chronological is a dig that kills me.

So yeah, so then there's like big, that big long paper edit with lots of notes.

Then there's

the

producer incorporates those notes and creates an audio version of it.

So like I'll get my script and I'll record my parts.

They'll record their parts and put it together and that becomes what we call a listen edit.

Now we listen to it all together as a sort of at least a first draft audio file and do the exact same thing.

Put all the notes in here and then those notes are incorporated into something called a notes mix.

And those are, instead of us all getting together, we all kind of listen on our own and we put little notes in.

Yeah.

And then Martine mixes it and then it comes out.

And it really is like, it's a long process and editing is.

a much bigger chunk of it than reporting, I would say.

Yeah.

For sure.

And so every story has been touched by, you know, like at least, you know, five or six people.

Like, it's a big group effort.

Like, it really takes a lot.

Yeah, a story gets turned into soup multiple times over several weeks and it becomes a little episode butterfly by the end of it.

It's a nice, gentle, but also scary process.

Yeah, it's rigorous, but it's pretty gentle.

Like most people who've done a tour through the show have commented on when they do this in other places, it's not so fun.

So I take real pride in that.

Quick story.

I do remember my first story was a freelance story.

And it was my first time ever doing an edit like that.

And I came in through, I think it was the Zoom, and you, like, this was like an hour and a half into like a three-hour process.

You and Delaney were arguing, I think, about like Agent Orange or something.

My internet dropped off, and I was gone for 10 minutes.

And when I came back in, no one noticed I was gone, and you were still like arguing about Agent Orange.

Well, there you go.

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Okay, our next

question is a voice message, and it's someone that you and I will recognize, but maybe some of the listeners have not heard their voice pretty much.

So my question is,

if you could commission any designer, living or dead, to create the ultimate piece of 99% invisible merch, like branded merchandise, what would that merch be?

And I ask this as someone who proudly owns and wears one of our brand new 99pi swimsuits.

Oh, that's Kelly Prime.

That is Kelly Prime.

Yeah, she doesn't show up on the show a lot, like her voice, because she's an editor.

But

yeah, Kelly Prime's the greatest.

Yeah, the funny thing about the swimsuit, just as an aside, was this was presented to us because there's a big merch team at Sirius XM, and you know, and they're just like, what about this?

What about this?

What about this?

They just kind of like throw things at us.

And they presented the idea of the 99pi swimsuit towels.

And everyone was like, oh my God, what are you kidding me?

That's ridiculous.

And then they would go, but if you make them, can i have one

and so so my wife did that vivian did that almost exactly and yeah and um and so we um

so we just did it because we were like well the people that will enjoy this will find it and fantastic um

and so let's see the perfect merch i would love a like a dieter rams designed

podcast player that really only pays a podcast.

I mean, like the iPod was definitely based off of Dieter Rams's like stuff with Braun, like his, his little miniature radio looks like an iPod, like the first generation with the wheel and the white, the white thing with the wheel.

Yeah.

Like a dedicated podcast player, you know, that.

And just podcast only.

It's just podcast only, you know, maybe a little bit of a screen on it so you could see some stuff.

you know, it'd have to be sort of internet enabled.

But yeah, I think something like that, like that, that would be the ultimate thing that I would probably enjoy and would be a nice 99% visible thing.

And it's a very niche, very like

not very widespread

use device rather than a real piece of merch.

But yeah,

that's the thing that comes to mind.

For sure.

Okay.

So our next question, it's also a voice message, which I will just play for you here.

Hey, Roman, it's frequent 99 PI contributor Gillian Jacobs.

And if you were to create a show called 1% Visible, Visible, what would it be about?

Well, that's the same thing.

I mean, 99% invisible means 1% visible.

So it would be the exact same show.

Yeah, I mean, I think so.

But I do, this does bring to mind one thing.

Like, we are,

um, I've been thinking about, and we're, we're sort of developing the idea of a show of a less abstract, more tactile kind of how stuff works quality of like, of describing infrastructure, of like, I touch a light switch, that wire goes to a wire that goes to a wire that goes to a transformer.

That's really about your interacting with how the world works in in a in less of a story way and more of just like i just don't understand how that works how does you know how does electricity come into my house that's what that feels like to me as a as an idea of one percent visible and um

that that's a thing that we're developing and i think that would be worth doing you know as a one percent visible okay uh so next question uh if aliens visited earth and you had to show them one designed object to explain human civilization what would it be wow that's a tall order.

I don't know.

I'm kind of obsessed with my go-to answer is the Golden Gate Bridge.

I just think it's super gorgeous and I think it does,

it looks like what it does, like

its design and physics and stuff is on display and it's beautiful.

And I don't know.

That's probably my answer.

There might be a...

a deeper answer there, but I just love it.

It's a good one.

I love looking at it.

It's a really good bridge.

Yeah.

Yep.

Okay.

Next question.

What is the most emotionally manipulative piece of design that people encounter daily without realizing it?

I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is

people really react to anything with faces or eyes.

I mean, I would say, so I have a couple of things.

The thing they react to are faces and eyes, and they react to music.

And one of the things that like, I love using music and storytelling because you can just like get people on board with something.

You can like, it's so manipulative in just the greatest way possible.

And I love using it, you know, all the time.

I love movies with good scores in them that are emotionally manipulative.

And then in terms of like faces and eyes, like I, I know that there's like, I think there was a study that if you put like eyeballs or some kind of human face on a tip jar or like people tipped more.

I think anything that has eyes or looks like somebody's watching you is probably the most emotionally manipulative stuff that sort of like gets you,

you know, that you encounter on a daily basis.

I mean, and this is true, like cute faces.

I mean,

if your kids weren't cute, if your dog wasn't cute, like they just, they make you,

they're so, I mean, they're so adorable and they're so annoying.

And you would never endure them in other ways if they didn't have these just cute little faces.

And so that's that's the most emotionally manipulative thing.

How people use it, mostly I think people use it in a benign way.

And mostly it's like good that you love your children because they have cute faces.

It's mostly good that you love your children.

This does remind me of, you know, we get a lot of those like autonomous delivery carts here in Los Angeles.

And they have these like digital interfaces that have like an actual face on it that smiles.

And it's just like, please don't murder me.

I'm just trying to do my job.

Don't knock me over.

Don't steal me, please.

That's true.

I think that's definitely why those faces are there.

I don't know if they work 100% of the time,

but it's why they're there for sure.

Okay, so next question.

What's something you deeply believed about designer storytelling 15 years ago that you've now completely reversed your thinking on?

Completely.

Completely reversed.

I mean...

I mean, the obvious one to me in terms of storytelling and storytelling about design is that, you you know, I created what I thought was the thing that the world needed, was this perfect little five-minute jewel of a story that was kind of like kind of a story, but more of like an opinion and had a few key facts and a, you know, like something that made me laugh and a, you know, whatever.

And never thought I would make a show like The Powerbroker Breakdown that is like three hours long of two dudes talking about a book.

But I loved making that show.

so i've kind of turned around a lot on that um and i just learned that like a lot of my favorite podcasts are like that and i just sort of forgave myself and gave myself the permission to uh to create one on my own so it is funny that the lesson that you learned after 15 years of making a podcast is that you like podcast

yeah um so the next question is from me because i'm curious if you will answer it

um so you know there are a lot of design lessons that the show has tried to, you know, impart out in the world.

Like, you know, buses are good.

Cities that are walkable are great.

So there's a lot of like positive design lessons that I think people take from our show.

Do you think there are any design decisions that have been unfairly blamed on your influence?

Okay, well, I think I know where this is going, which is,

I don't think unfairly blamed, but it definitely is blame.

And I take some of it as being justified.

So probably

the biggest cultural reach me or the show has ever had was this 2015 TED Talk about flag design,

and where I sort of enumerated the North American Vexillological Association's principles of flag design

as written down by Ted Kay, who was great.

And I love this.

He has this pamphlet called Good Flag, Bad Flag.

I did an episode based off of it and talking to Ted as the sixth episode of this show.

And then when I was approached to do a TED talk,

I kind of had this idea of putting together like this big grand theory of design with lots of different stories and stuff.

And it wasn't really working.

I was trying different parts of it live and it wasn't really working.

But like this expanded flag talk was the one that was

making people laugh and being fun and putting up pictures of of flags and making fun of flags and stuff.

And then using the design principles of flags to talk about design principles in general, that they kind of work for almost everything.

And the flag talk was really huge.

Like it was bigger than I thought.

Like when I went to TED Conference, a former prime minister of Australia was there and who had like, who gave a talk and he was talking about normalizing trade relationships with China or something.

And I was like, oh my God, in two days, I'm going to do my dumb like

flag talk.

And now I feel like such a loser, you know?

And I did this talk and it was like totally a home run.

Like people loved it.

There was like a standing ovation.

It was so much fun.

And the title of the talk was, it was eventually titled by Ted as The Worst Design Thing You've Ever Not Noticed or something like that.

And it was about city flags and how city flags need to be better.

And I used lots of different examples.

And it being released into the world resulted in maybe, I think at this point, 300 or more flag redesigns all around the world.

And most of these flag redesigns are are just like old, you know, they put the city seal on a blue field and they're just thoughtless flags, you know, and they've been redesigned without too much controversy.

And the lesson of the whole thing was

if you're in a city that doesn't fly a flag, it's probably because it violates these design principles.

And a good way to get to the point where you have a flag that you're proud of is to use these design principles to create one because it's this great symbol that nobody owns, that everyone can have city pride.

And when you see it in action, like when you see it in Chicago, it's amazing.

It's this amazing unifier that it's on the shoulders of police officers.

It's on like hipster tattoos.

It's on every type of business uses like the stars or stripes parts of the Chicago flag.

And when it's not well designed, like San Francisco, you barely see it anywhere.

And that was the whole point was to love your flag, have a municipal symbol that nobody owns.

And if your flag is bad, it probably violates these principles and maybe redesign it so it's a good one.

But the key is love your flag.

Use your flag.

Like it's a resource that's wasted.

Okay.

And even there's a line at the end that I think people kind of missed,

which is, I don't care if your flag is ugly.

Like just use it.

Like use it.

Don't let it go to waste because otherwise sports teams and corporations, they take over the identity of a city.

And so a lot of people redesign their flag.

And I think mostly for the good.

I never get involved in flag redesign contests or flag redesign like drama.

Like I, my point was just to talk about it as a thing and have people do it because people should choose what represents them.

And using the principles, that's a good way to do it to make a good one.

Now,

like anything where like you're sort of like putting a list of things to make things good or a certain like orthodoxy gets created.

And in that orthodoxy, I think some of the redesigns have had a samey, samey quality to them, you know?

And it was not something that I imagined because I didn't really think it would have that big of an effect.

But

especially my praise of the Chicago flag have led people to create like a lot of Chicago-y style flags instead of something like kind of cool and on their own.

And

actually, and violate those principles when they're meaningfully worth violating, you know, like the idea of

two to three colors.

And

like, I love, like, for example, the California flag.

It says California Republic on it.

Like, a a flag is supposed to work in two directions.

So, having words on it is like a bad flag.

You know what I mean?

Because you see it from the opposite direction.

So, it's backwards.

I don't care.

California Republic is so, it tells you so much about California and Californians that it still says California Republic on it.

I would never change it.

And I put out a whole like addendum of like things, you know, like on the TED site of flags that violate the principles but are still fantastic.

And like, and Ted Kay, who wrote, you know, the book on this, like, totally agrees with that type of stuff too.

Thoughtful

violation of the rules is totally part of it.

Adhering so closely to the rules that everything kind of looks like it was made in a

very simplistic

illustrator type program.

And it doesn't have the joy and verve of some of these flags that came up in different ways.

I think that just like there's just the danger of any sort of like design orthodoxy

on anything.

And so I take some blame for that.

Like I know that I was the instigator in that, but I really didn't mean everything should look

boring.

Like that was the whole point was just to have something that you love so that you flew it.

And I think that was the part that was like

a little bit missed.

So I take some blame, but I also like think that my whole point was to make something cool and fun that you would get a tattoo of because you just loved where you were from.

And it doesn't matter if your flag is perfect or whatever.

It should represent the city in a cool way.

That's all I care about.

And to be fair, I think

a lot of flags that were inspired by our TED Talk ended up better than they were before.

I think the vast majority did.

I would say that 90% of it did.

I just think that occasionally there's just like you see the like, especially because they often do design contests, which I think is a way to flatten creativity, honestly.

Like it brings in a lot of ideas, but then when people vote on it, they choose choose the one that is kind of the most anodyne, the most that feels like a flag.

And now the idea of what feels like a flag has changed into like

kind of something that isn't super inspiring.

You should just hire someone to make something cool and commission them and make it great and put it out there.

And if it

is a little more,

I don't know, shocking or whatever, that's a good thing.

Your city should be unique.

Great.

Okay, so that was 15 questions.

Oh, good.

But I also have a bonus here for you.

Okay.

Another voice message.

I'm going to play it for you.

This is Tina from Germany.

And my questions are how Roman's twins are doing and how they are feeling about their cameos in the early episodes of 99 PI.

That's a good question.

The twins are doing great.

Maslow and Carver are about to go to college.

I did ask them if I could say where they're going to college, and they said no.

Smart.

very smart.

But

they they I think they're pretty proud of of their role in the show.

I mean they were for people who don't know who didn't listen to early stages.

We

MailChimp was a sponsor in the very beginning.

They had a product called Tiny Letter and their

slogan was email for people with something to say.

And my kids were very talkative from a very early age.

And I thought it'd be funny if I just would say, hey, Maslow, what do you have to say?

Oh, hey, Carvo, what do you have to say?

And honestly, this empire was built on the charm of those twins.

If we didn't have that as a sponsor in the very beginning,

I do not know if we would be here today.

And so it was a huge part of the show.

It made people tune in to the end to hear what they had to say.

I think they're quite proud of their role.

And when they stopped, I think it was okay for us to stop.

But I think they were like a little bit like, you know, because it was like the company just ended the product.

And so there was nothing more to do.

You know what I mean?

And, and, and it took me a minute to describe to them that they didn't do anything wrong, that, that it was just that the thing got canceled.

And wait, they thought it was their faults?

They, you know, it was really Carver who, who was like, oh.

And then, and I was like, but it was, you know, like, they just stopped doing the, they just stopped doing the ads and, and, and it's okay.

And like, people, like, I still love them.

And, you know, the people still love them.

And so getting that lesson to them was like, was like kind of a sad one.

And I think today they're pretty proud of it.

And just for comparison to, you know, how old were they when they first started doing the ads?

Like

maybe four.

Like they were three when I started and maybe three or four when the ads started running.

And they ran for, you know, like a long time, like six or seven, six or seven years, something like that.

I did go back in the archives and I did pull one.

And so this is what Maslow used to sound like.

Support for 99% Invisible is provided in part by tiny letter email for people with something to say.

What do you have to say, Maslow?

My favorite thing to talk about is robots and Ironman suits and stuff.

Robots and Iron Man suits.

I would subscribe to that newsletter.

That makes me cry.

Oh.

They're so big now.

They're so big.

Yeah.

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love my adult children.

But like when you're a parent, parent, like you, you miss those little those little voices.

Like it's it's so sweet.

But yeah,

yeah, I'm so excited for the people that they've grown up to be.

They're the best.

Great.

I mean,

I guess we're going to leave it on the note of you crying.

Oh my goodness.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah,

that works for me.

That works for me.

Well, thank you so much, Roman.

This has been really fun.

Oh, my pleasure.

I've really enjoyed it.

Thank you so much.

And thanks for all the thoughtful questions.

I I thought this was actually really like, this was interesting

for me too.

Like I was, I'm, I'm really into it.

Like this was not, this was not bad.

Thank you.

All right.

Yeah.

Take care, everybody.

I appreciate it.

Thanks for listening.

Maslow, what do you have to say?

I'm going to college as of recording this in a in a just over a month.

I'm currently planning to do art and writing.

I, like you, are interested in

a lot of different things to only my own fault, and I don't think I'll be able to find a job where I can research everything in the world.

But, you know.

Maybe you can.

Well, maybe I'll find something.

Carver, what do you have to say?

I am planning to study physics and communications.

I want to become a science communicator and talk about the things that I love and spread information and teach people, kind of like what my dad does.

Oh, I'm so touched.

That's sweet.

Okay, well, you know, like early on, the show didn't have a lot of advertisers, and

the ads with you really were the first solid foundation for the financing of the show.

So you basically paid for your own college education by doing tiny letter ads.

Oh, wow.

I mean,

great.

I can now tell people I put myself through college.

99% Invisible was produced this week by Vivian and also by our wonderful listeners who submitted such thoughtful questions.

Mix by Martine Gonzalez, music by Swan Real.

Kathy Too is our executive producer.

Kurt Colstead is the digital director.

Flaine Hall is our senior editor.

The rest of the team includes Chris Barubay, Jason DeLeon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Christopher Johnson, Lajma Dawn, Joe Rosenberg, Kelly Prime, Jacob Medina Gleason, and me, Roman Mars.

The 99% Invisible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence.

We are part of the SiriusXM podcast family now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora Building in beautiful uptown Oakland, California.

You can find us on all the usual social media sites as well as our own Discord server.

There's a link to that as well as every past episode, 15 years of 99% invisible at 99pi.org.

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