Get Played with Roman Mars and Ben Brock Johnson

This episode is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average.

Plus, auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts.

Quote now at progressive.com to see if you could save.

Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, national average 12-month savings of $744 by new customer surveyed, who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023.

Potential savings will vary.

Discounts not available in all states and situations.

Introducing your new Dell PC with the Intel Core Ultra Processor.

It helps you handle a lot, like organizing your holiday shopping, searching for great holiday deals, customer questions, plus planning the perfect holiday dinner.

Luckily, you can get a PC with all-day battery life to help you get it all done.

That's the power of a Dell PC with Intel inside.

Backed by Dell's Price Match Guarantee, get yours today at dell.com/slash deals.

Terms and conditions apply.

See Dell.com for details.

Hello, beautiful nerds.

I am so excited about our new mini-series, Hidden Levels.

It's a six-part show about how video games left the arcade and started reshaping the real world.

We made it in partnership with WBUR's Endless Thread, and it's co-hosted and created by Ben Brock Johnson.

The show launches wide on both the 99PI and Endless Thread feeds on Tuesday, October 7th.

But if you're already a Serious XM Podcast Plus subscriber, the first two episodes are already already waiting for you right now.

Ben and I wanted to get the word out about the show to video gamers everywhere.

So we went on the great Get Played podcast to talk with hosts Heather Ann Campbell and Matt Apodaka.

And it was such a great conversation and they were such gracious hosts that we wanted to share that conversation with 99 PI listeners.

You'll hear about how Ben came up with the idea for the series and a sneak peek at some of the things that we'll be covering.

And as the kids say, a whole lot of new Roman Mars lore gets dropped.

So if you're ever curious about what I was doing from around around 1997 to 1999 and what it has to do with video games, stay tuned.

All right, well, Heather, why don't we introduce our guests?

Okay, Matt, let's do it.

Okay, from the podcast 99% Invisible and W-B-U-R, and their new series, Hidden Levels.

Hidden levels.

What should that be about?

Well, I'll tell you, it explores the impact of video games on modern culture.

It's Roman Mars and Ben Brock Johnson.

What's up, guys?

Hi, guys.

Hey.

Hey.

welcome.

Welcome to the show.

Welcome to Get Played The Show.

This is like, we're actually doing the show in a very serious way.

We sound so professional, and normally, none of this tone is present.

No, no, everyone is like, this is false.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is not true.

This is not.

There's an artifice here.

Matt and Heather have been replaced with AI.

Yeah.

They've got like just avatars doing the show.

I was just sitting with my fingers like laced.

Yeah.

In the hand.

Little

uh what uh gendo from evangelia i was being gendo from evangelia get in the robot yeah roman get in the robot

uh thanks for being here you guys so you guys have a new podcast series that's coming out you said the street date was october 7th why don't you tell us a little bit about uh hidden levels go for it pen all right well hidden levels is something that um i started talking to roman and his team about about a year ago wow um and it came out of this thing that i was seeing and look this is gonna be a statement of the obvious for you and your audience, right?

Like video games impact the world beyond video games.

And I think it's one of those things that people who are in gaming and who play video games, they know.

They see it all the time as they walk through the world.

They see things that they recognize as coming from their culture and the world that they inhabit when they play games.

But I think a lot of people who don't know video gaming as well or don't play games don't.

see that stuff and don't recognize it as as easily.

And, you know, I've always been a huge fan of Roman Show.

I make a show about the internet called Endless Thread for WBR, this public radio station in Boston.

And always been a huge fan of Roman's show.

And Roman Show, which Roman will introduce better than me, is all about the, you know, the architecture and design in the world that you don't see, but is hugely important and has an impact beyond its creators.

So it just kind of felt like a match made in a video game dungeon.

And we went from there.

It's neat to hear you say that like, uh, video games have become sort of like you ubiquitously infused into culture because there was a time in certainly our lifetimes when that wasn't the case.

And now you will see video game language on like a billboard.

You'll see things that say, like, level up your workout.

And leveling up was once a thing that was in an instruction booklet for Super Mario Bros.

Like, you would have to be like, you'd have to learn the vocabulary and then understand understand it on your television and tell your friends at recess.

And now these are just,

they're sort of like permafrost on reality now.

Yeah.

I mean, they're really,

they're almost mundane and every day is part of the thing.

They're not like notable.

And that's sort of what, that's sort of the bailiwick of 99% invisible.

It's about, you know, the design that is part of the built world that becomes so ordinary doorknobs, sewer covers, you know, like, you know,

and

all of a sudden, like, looking at them deeply and going, oh, there's a story in that.

Like, somebody made that a decision there, and they designed something, and we are interacting with it every day.

And video games are just ripe for this because the way that they've infiltrated, you know, real life and back and forth, and they communicate.

And it's just, it's, it's huge and it's rich.

And we had, you know, we have six stories in this series, but there's like hundreds more like we could possibly do.

Yeah.

I guess so.

So

it's a six-episode mini-series, right?

And so there's six different stories.

Do they all sort of like follow a similar trajectory?

Do they intersect in any sort of way?

Or are all these things kind of like on their own island as far as like impact?

I would say like it's a little bit of both.

You know, they I think we found in making the series that they led into each other really well.

You know,

we have an episode about a very famous sports game that I think the sounds of which you will recognize.

And

the way that story ends with Boom Shakalaka, shall we say,

you know,

had us starting to talk about,

interestingly enough, just joysticks and the ways that we control these games.

And that leads into a story, for instance, about

the hardware that we use to control these games and how that hardware has itself influenced all these other parts of the world that are not specifically or exclusively about gaming.

Is that Roman?

Would you say that's fair?

It's not serialized, but it's

you can you can listen to each episode on its own, but because the world is so connected, you know, like they kind of talk to each other, and it was it was becoming clear as we were putting them together, like, oh, this is the right order to speak, you know, to speak about the man, you know, just because it, you know, like it

set up those connections kind of nicely.

Right.

Like you're, you're talking about controllers.

Like, I think before video games, people used to have to fly planes by pulling these different ropes.

Yeah.

And then they saw the joysticks and they were like, you know, this could make flying a lot easier.

Stay tuned.

Episode two, you're going to have the full story because

we trace.

Emery traces the whole evolution of a joystick.

The plane is involved.

Oh, really?

War games are involved.

Well, I was going to say, it's interesting that airplanes was the thing that

you pegged there because I was just thinking based on...

Using a video game controller and like playing games where you have to fly planes, like, you know, flight simulator or even like, you know the rogue squadron the star wars yeah uh uh flying game i kind of think i could fly a plane i kind of think i could just do it having never tried it matt have i ever told you the story of me flying a plane uh i think you have but you have to tell uh

you have to say it now please i was in i was in wisconsin and and they have those like you know like roadside like get in an airplane that a farmer owns and he'll take you on a quick i mean i've never seen that myself but i i understand

if you look deep enough into wisconsin there's like, you know, the guys who have crop dusters and they're like, you know, 20 bucks for a ride.

And

so I got into one of these planes and was like flying around.

And the guy was like, do you want to, you want to fly the plane?

And I was like, yes.

And so he let me fly the plane.

And then he was like, hey, you're pretty good at this.

Crazy thing to learn while letting somebody else fly a plane.

And I was like, yeah, I've played a lot of Microsoft Flight Simulator.

And he's like, like, yeah, it's kind of the same thing.

I mean, those Microsoft Flight Simulator

folks are for real.

I feel like

that's close to the real deal.

Oh, yeah, with a full rig.

Yeah, yeah, that's fucking.

The full rig.

I will say, as much as we like flying

planes with sort of like game input, I've heard that game controllers are really bad at submarines.

Yeah, I heard something about that too, actually.

I can't remember what it was, but I sort of do remember some story,

I think,

if I'm remembering the details correctly.

I'm not sure it was the controller's fault in that situation.

It certainly wasn't an airtight vessel with no escape.

Yeah.

Couldn't have been the reason why.

There weren't any humans there at all.

But it is fascinating.

And

I love the story that we do about controllers because,

and there's a couple of other stories that we have in the series that talk about this too.

And I think Roman said this earlier.

These things are talking to each other, right?

Like

you have this piece of hardware that's really created for

an actual massive mechanical machine that people use to traverse the real world.

And that inspires then a digital world.

And then that then again goes back and inspires the real world.

And I think that's the thing that's really fascinated us when working on this series.

That's really cool.

Was there anything, I mean, I guess without spoiling any like sort of particular story.

oh i mean just tell us the top five moments of your upcoming series yeah just like just give us all i mean heather you sound like you already heard the second episode so you know i don't know i think somebody leaked it i don't know

i guess yeah was anything in particular like like particularly revelatory to you like where you like upon learning something you just like never would have even considered like this like uh you know like a video game being that impactful in the modern sort of world at all

wow okay well there's a lot for me.

I mean, I thought that the, I mean, what I loved about the joystick one since we're talking about it is I cover design a lot.

And so I think about sort of principles of design.

And

there's this concept of affordance, like what a device, you know, kind of telegraphs what you're supposed to do with it just by looking at it, essentially.

And so a joystick has an extremely just grockable affordance.

Like you know that when you want to go up, you push up.

When you want to go down, you push down.

And so there's that, that sort of thing.

And then, you know, in the world of flat screen touch screen games,

a flat screen has no affordance.

Like, you can do anything with a screen.

And it becomes like less fun to me, you know, like in many ways.

And so there's things like this, like the principles of design that we were able to drill down on.

That even though I've done a show about design for 15 years, like I've never really had a good example to describe that to an audience, you know, like and so when we were talking about it in editing and it was being reported out by Amory, like, you know, like we were able to discuss this and, you know, bring, so it's like, it's, it's just like, what was fascinating to me was how fundamental both like, you know, story and thought and theory and design

is part of all video games.

And it should be obvious because, you know, video games

Because, I mean, they are completely designed from the ground up.

There's no part of it that you're like, there is the earth that I'm going to build on and therefore I have to deal with the earth.

The earth is created by somebody's mind.

The air is created by somebody's mind.

And so everything is thought of.

And because of that, there's so many avenues to explore because everyone made a decision about every pixel inside of a video game.

And that is really, that was just like lit me up in sort of every story in so many ways because it just is like, there's like super smart people making decisions and thinking about things.

And you just, and what's so great about it and this sort of 99% invisible part of video games is you don't necessarily have to feel the author.

You just feel immersed.

And that means that they're doing a good job in a lot of ways.

This is why I particularly enjoy animation over live action, is because there's so few accidents in animation.

Like so much of it is just curated choices of design and intent.

And that's also a lot of video games.

Although now there's a lot of emergent play that isn't particularly the designed purpose of the game.

Right.

And that sort of stuff will like float to the surface.

I had a side question, which is you talking about the

looking at an object and knowing what its purpose is.

And I think this is probably maybe something you've talked about on your podcast before, but if it isn't, I'm super curious.

What is

what do you think are like,

what is the most,

how do I put this?

What's an object that you think is very poorly, not a touchscreen, but that you look at it and you don't know what it's supposed to do.

And it's supposed to do one thing.

For example, when I look at a carrot peeler, I am absolutely not thinking

that's so that I can scrape it on a carrot.

I was going to say pickle picker-upper.

So, like, I feel like we're in the same headspace somehow.

You know, those things where you like, you got to like.

It's like a tongue.

Yeah.

It's sort of like it looks like a syringe on the back end, and on the front end, it looks like one of those claws in the gaming, in the actual, you know what I'm saying?

I actually didn't know that that was what that was.

Today we learned that.

I thought that was for like a turkey.

i've seen that in a kitchen and i didn't know i also

like scratching her back with it

picking my pickles

i uh i also think and this is not because this that our show is

for and made by stupid people yeah uh yeah

toilets are not like they don't necessarily say what they are you wouldn't necessarily know that you have to do that right because you wouldn't be like oh i should go over there and empty into the water yeah like you would you would look at it and you would think is this a kind of bathing apparatus do i put my foot in here to clean it or you see water and you if you had not if you would just be

trying to drink this yeah i mean my cat thinks that my cat thinks that yeah

yeah yeah absolutely

if the toilet has 40 buttons on it it's then it gets really dangerous and you know i'm going to push all of them so i can learn exactly what the buttons do and then be horrified by the results every now and then.

Just like the elevator.

Yep.

Yep.

I think the sort of plurality of smart devices have terrible affordance, and you don't know how to use them, and you have to read, you know, like instructions on how to get them.

And one of the things that makes things, I mean, like, I would argue, not to disagree greatly with the carrot peeler thing.

If you had a carrot peeler, I think you'd quickly learn that it peeled.

You know, like you would see it and go, here's what I'm handy.

One more in the yard.

One way in the other.

But I like to think about this as

I think everyone's had this experience when you've lived in a house for maybe 20 years and you still don't know which knob goes to which burner on your stove.

That's a type of weird, bad design that is like, it's like you shouldn't have to think about it.

Or like if you have a bank of light switches and you have some kind of mnemonic as to which socket it goes to.

Like those represent, you know, design fails.

And I think a lot of us take those things on as, like, I'm so dumb, I can't remember what light switch goes to which socket.

But really, those are bad design decisions, and they don't represent, you know, they don't sort of like exhibit good design that would sort of like you, you would normally have to set that up so you wouldn't get confused.

And that's the way to do that.

So, would you say that, in terms of video game design and then real-world design, that your interests lie in more skewmorphic design choices?

Or are you, do you find that trying to translate, like looking at an icon for a tape recorder on a screen doesn't tell you the story that you are supposed to push that button in order to make the recording start?

Because also you're, you have dissociated so much from what a tape recorder is.

Like,

how would you do you have a way to make

game design?

Yeah,

yeah, I honestly don't.

But I mean, I can tell you, like, you know, I think that these sort of, you know, these

kind of things like skewomorphisms that sort of lead people because you know the real world analog and therefore you know how to do them inside of a digital space, you know, they have their role, especially during the transitional phase of getting used to a digital space.

But I think at this point,

there is like, there's no point in putting like an analog, you know, real to real in front of.

my kid on the icon and and have them have that make sense to them.

So like that, I think that design language, you know, just evolves and changes over time for sure.

And maybe, maybe this is a different kind of thing when we're talking about design, but I, one thing that I'm amazed at,

you know, I'm

45, right?

So, like, I, the first games that I played were arcade games and Nintendo games.

And I remember games that were, they took forever and so long to figure out how to use, how to like move the player, how to move the sprite, whatever.

And just like,

you know, I think of a game like, well, this is a new example, but like Cuphead, if you know that game.

Um, and like that game, I don't think, I think I've still not made it past the first level of that game.

Like, that's a hard, that's a hard game, yeah.

Um, but it's sort of, I feel like it's calling back to some of those games where you, you just really, it didn't sort of push you forward.

The game didn't pull you forward in the way that games do now, where like you're immediately immersed in the space that you're playing in, and you're just getting these directives one at a time, like

press X to pick up the gun.

You know what I mean?

Like, there's a, there's a way in which the game is communicating with you as a player that is, I feel, much better now than it used to be, where they used to be kind of like esoteric and hard to get into in some ways.

And now it's like it's kind of dummy-proof, some of the way that the games communicate with you as you like move into the environment, if that makes sense.

Sorry, I was going to say, so much literacy for video games in general comes from your

like predetermined knowledge of video.

You have to, like, I don't think somebody could could pick up like The Last of Us 2, for example, having never played a video game before and be like, this is easy to me.

Because there's so many things you sort of do have to know, like

that the left joystick moves your person and then the right joystick moves your field of vision.

And that's like you're sort of learning to sort of pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time kind of with some of these things.

Well, totally.

Yeah.

But like, if you know how to play a video game, chances are you're going to know how to play a different video game pretty easily.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's also a lot of vestigial stuff that has just become the vocabulary of games.

Like, for example, there's ammo in barrels.

Yeah.

And it used to be.

Well, but I like if you look at like

that's not how that works in real life.

But it comes from a time when you're playing these side-scrolling fighting games and there isn't a lot of information on screen.

And perhaps you're walking through a city and there are trash cans rendered in pixels on the on the screen and so you know oh i can punch those trash cans and when you punch the trash cans sometimes you'll get a food item that will help your character get their life back and so you'll punch a trash can and a turkey will come out and you'll be like oh i can i now i can get better yeah but all of that legacy has then gone all the way to effectively Last of Us Part 2, where you're like smashing shit in the environment to try and find ammunition for your character

in a way that you absolutely never would interact with reality.

And all of that is sort of an assumed knowledge on part of the developers that is then,

you know, like you can't,

like people can watch any movie as their first movie.

Like generally.

Yeah.

Sure, some that probably shouldn't be your first movie.

Right.

But you can, you don't have to, like, there's not a ton.

Like dogs watch movies now there's all the tick tocks of like people like dogs watching the lion king and under and following it and i'm like how do you are they following it well yeah because they they're like getting the they're getting simba's arc they are definitely getting simba's arc because when when

who's the scar scar scar's on screen they'll bark at scar because he's hurt somebody earlier so the dog is following it and i'm like how does the dog understand what an edit is how is it

like the lion is over there and then the lion's over anyway?

All this is a digression to say that nine out of ten dogs hate Scar.

That is true.

That is true.

They don't want to.

I got lost.

Scar a cat.

Scar's a cat.

Right.

Yeah, they all hate that.

Dogs don't like that.

They all hate lions.

What does it mean to live a rich life?

It means brave first leaps,

tearful goodbyes,

and everything in between.

With over 100 years' experience navigating the ups and downs of the market and of life, your Edward Jones financial advisor will be there to help you move ahead with confidence.

Because with all you've done to find your rich, we'll do all we can to help you keep enjoying it.

Edward Jones, member SIPC.

This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank.

Some people think podcasts about architecture are boring.

Yeah, well, sometimes the details are boring, but that's what creates stable foundations and construction that lasts.

And that's something that everyone wants.

It's like banking with PNC.

It might seem boring to save, plan, and make calculated decisions with your bank, but keeping your money boring is what helps you live a happily fulfilled life.

PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865.

PNC Bank National Association member FDIC.

The moment you realize your business needs to hire someone new, you pretty much have to hire that person like yesterday.

So how do you find amazing candidates fast?

It's easy.

Just use Indeed.

With Indeed sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can stand out and reach the people you want faster.

I ran my own business for most of my adult life, and hiring is one of the hugest things that you have to take on when you run a business.

Doing outreach and waiting for people to come back to you, all that stuff is so painful.

I wish there was a podcast ad telling me about Indeed back then.

There's no need to wait any longer.

Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.

And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash invisible.

Just go to Indeed.com slash invisible right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.

Indeed.com slash invisible.

Terms and conditions apply.

Hiring.

Indeed is all you need.

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.

Squarespace is an all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online, whether you're just starting out or growing your your business.

Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid.

Showcase consultations, events, and more with a customizable website built to attract clients and grow your business.

Plus, get paid faster with professional invoices and easy online payments.

And with their collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a bespoke online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business.

I built a couple of websites with Squarespace and their templates are beautiful, they're easy to work with, and they work great off the shelf, but you can customize them so that your website looks like it was made by and for you and your business.

Check out squarespace.com slash invisible for a free trial.

And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code Invisible to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

Let's get into like your just your histories with gaming in general.

We got a little bit of benz there, but let's let's get into it just a little bit deeper.

Where are you guys at with games like today?

I guess is a good jumping off point.

Yeah, what's your rank in Fortnite?

Man, barely, barely, barely survives five minutes.

I mean, Fortnite, my experience in Fortnite, Fortnite's one of those games where I can, I think it's gotten better at matching, right?

Like, I used it when I first started playing Fortnite, and maybe I've gotten better too, hopefully, but

when I first started playing, it was like two minutes of me screaming and then starting over.

Do you know what I mean?

Like I was just like running and hiding and then starting over.

I will say that I put, you know, really my gaming

is these days about connection.

I really like talking to my good friends across the country who I don't see anymore.

You know, they have their own lives.

I have my own life.

They, you know, they're parents.

I'm a parent.

So one of the ways that I connect with them is we play games together and we learn the lore together and we, you know, we spend a couple couple hours every week doing that.

And that's really wonderful.

And

it's really less about the grind and more about

talking to each other.

And we've basically had group therapy sessions talking to each other as we've gone through life challenges.

And

a lot of what we do these days is a sort of second screen activity where you're doing a couple things at the same time.

And I don't know if that's bad or good, but I just know that my buddies and I, we talk every week.

And that's meaningful to me.

And so I play Helldivers.

I play,

we just started playing Diablo 4.

We played like every sniper elite because one of my buddies is just obsessed with sniping, and that's what he loves to do.

I played Generation Z.

I liked that game a lot because of the crafting and just like moving through that sort of post-apocalyptic fighting robots world, which is, you know, that's a classic trope and it works.

But mostly I just do it for fun.

I mean, we've tried to play weirder, odder games, but we have a kind of split.

Half of the group is like, I just want to shoot guns.

And half the group is like, no, let's do something weird and interesting with games.

And so sometimes we fight about that.

But generally, it's for me, it's just a place to connect and a way to connect and blow off steam.

Yeah.

And Roman, am I correct?

You're a bit of a lapsed gamer, would you say?

Yeah, I don't know if I was ever really a gamer as such.

I mean,

I kind of, I don't do much gaming today.

I kind of do passive

tower defense type games when I'm listening.

I have to listen to a lot of

audio for my job.

And so I need something that doesn't really require good timing, you know, that is something I can do while I'm doing something else.

And so I love tower defense games.

And I play some fitness games like on an Oculus because I like to box and stuff like this.

And I injured my back boxing for real when I punched stuff like solid things.

Is there a trash can?

Were you trying to find a turkey in a trash trash can?

No,

I wish,

but there are no turkeys anywhere.

I've tried.

Just wait a couple months.

There's going to be turkeys everywhere.

That's true.

That's true.

So I love like supernatural.

I love like doing stuff like that.

It's pretty, it's pretty fun for me.

But my history is, it's strange.

I, you know, I, I was involved in the development of some of the first

voice chat.

in gaming in the 90s.

Wow.

And so I had a friend who I went to college with and he developed this app called Roger Wilco.

It was a standalone application that

was behind your Baldur's Gate or

your Doom or your Tribes.

And

it ran on a 28.8 modem.

It was super clean and beautifully done.

And I was the first QA tester for the company.

And so I played a lot of early multiplayer games like that.

And

in fact, selling that, that, it was funny.

It was like selling that company is what paid for my three-year internship in public radio that led me into being a podcaster.

Wow.

Wow.

I surrender that.

Talk about learning the lore.

Cool.

So, yeah, so our early, so I used to test games.

So I played games like hours and hours with Roger Wilco running underneath it just to see if it worked and if all the technology worked.

And so that's what I did for

mid-late 90s.

Yeah.

Do you, from that time, do you remember a game that you were like, this, I like, it didn't feel like work kind of that you were like I'm actually enjoying this one.

It's tribes.

I was a sniper in the renegade mod of tribes and I could come on to a a server and I could clear it because I just killed

I would just annihilate and people would just leave as soon as they saw my name show up.

And I began to have to like come in with different names so that they would play longer.

But yeah, if anyone knows tribes, that was like that was that was totally my game.

I would get into that one beyond.

I love

Mendel.

I was a genetics PhD student, so I went by Mendel.

Usually,

if you're, if you're this good at sniping and you don't come on as Mendel, I love the moment on a server when people are like, oh shit, Raspberry Ghost is Mendel.

Raspberry Ghost is Mendel.

Yeah, totally.

I used to frustrate a lot.

Accused me of cheating and stuff like this.

It was really like,

I'm just good.

I'm just great at this.

You can get good.

You can be mental.

I want to, because I also, I love to box.

I'm also a boxer.

What is your

VR boxing app of choice?

I do a supernatural.

I like that one because I like it.

It's like supernatural.

I like the music.

And I've done, what is the fight for.

I don't know.

There's another one that's actually a video game game that we have an opponent.

I've played that one too, and it wears me out.

That's great.

And

they're mainly like fitness games.

They're not so much like or fitness apps.

They're not so much just like a boxing game so much.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But they're probably gamified, right?

Which is another example of how the world changes

or the video game world changes the other the rest of the world, right?

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

No, it really helps.

It really is motivating for sure and teaches you patterns and stuff like that.

And it's good.

It basically just sort of gets me moving.

I don't quite have the constitution to sit and play a game anymore.

I kind of, I just like, that's just not how I'm wired anymore.

And even when I watch TV, I walk on a treadmill most of the time.

And so

fitness gaming is sort of my version of just like moving and playing games at the same time.

To the tower defense aspect of

your gaming, though, I don't play a lot of those games, though, but I could see a game like that being a good second thing you're doing while like, you know, listening to,

you know,

I have edited my own voice for a long time too.

So like, whatever is getting me focused on not hearing my own voice and, you know,

how horrible I sound when I speak,

I'll enjoy another activity as well.

But I get distracted because the things, the games that I pick are going to be like...

like like Hollow Knight Silk Song or like Elden Ring or something where I have to be so focused on the actions of what's going on.

But like a tower defense thing, it's like a set it and forget it type of thing.

What's the appeal for you there?

Yeah, I mean, it's basically that.

It's like you can, there's a little bit of timing involved usually as it gets at the upper levels or whatever.

But like your precise sort of,

you know, Metroid style timing is not required.

Yeah.

And so it's just sort of like you have to kind of be a present.

And I just find that it actually kind of helps me focus because I can drift listening.

I have to listen to hours and hours of people talking, like in terms of like raw tape of people talking.

I listen to a ton of podcasts and I listen to a lot of books on tape in quotes for my job to prepare for interviews.

And

I used to do this when I worked at WBUR, sorry, WBUR.

I worked at WBEZ in Chicago.

And

I used to sit at my desk and one of my jobs was listening to audio documentaries all day long.

And I sit at my desk play solitaire and people would walk by and like, I actually had like a manager sort of make fun of me, like complain that I was

playing a game all day instead of doing my job.

yeah um and it was like i need this to do my job like i am listening to this stuff and if i was just listening i would doze off i would not i would lose focus and i so i started using games then to sort of like to to sort of keep my ears open actually I've only ever been able to play video games at one job.

I guess if you don't count this one, but we don't play video games when we're doing this.

We could, we should.

It'd be more interesting.

I mean, people are constantly asking us to do the thing that you're saying right now, which is why, why don't you guys live stream your games?

And it's, for me, it's that speaking while gaming is almost impossible.

Yeah, like, like, like, I can't, I can't play a guitar and talk.

Well, I can't play the avenue of perception, too.

I just don't need it.

It's terrible.

But

I worked at a restaurant in their office

taking reservations.

And so it was a nice Michelin-star restaurant in town.

I'll tell you where it was afterward.

And I.

Burger King.

It was at Burger King.

And I had just,

it was at, yeah, I was with

the chef's name, I think, is Peter Pickle or something.

But I would bring my Switch to work.

And like, I was like, I'm really testing the limits of what I'm allowed to do here, I think, because this, I'm very obviously playing a video game, but my job is to answer the phone and put in a reservation on on a computer if somebody calls to make the reservation, right?

And then I'm calling people confirming reservations, but apart from that, I'm sitting at a desk for hours.

There's not another facet to that job.

So I was like, I have to do something or I'm just never going to come back here.

trapped not doing anything.

And so I started to bring my switch to work.

And also, I'm working at night, right?

The restaurant closes at 11.

So from like 9 to like 11 o'clock nobody's calling to make a dinner reservation I'm just chilling and getting paid and playing breath of the wild it was like actually I think about that time a lot

I had less going for me you had it good but that was that was good that was really really nice isn't it funny how memories like that can just of playing games can just be so powerful and and and sort of like remind you of a time in your life I I feel like that's

I don't know I just like when you were describing that, I was, I know exactly what you mean, where you were like, maybe it wasn't the best job or the best situation, but like 9 p.m.

to 11 p.m., man, you were free to

hanging out, but I couldn't leave in case somebody called, right?

They couldn't call me off because what if somebody

did want to call or something?

They couldn't, they can't have somebody else

doing that.

Yeah.

They're doing something more important.

But if you were VR boxing, maybe that would not fly.

But if you're like

switching off and

sweaty, yeah, if I had brought my Dance Dance Revolution rig to the office,

probably not a good idea.

Are you familiar with the VR game Super Hot?

Yeah, yeah.

It's a game where you're like John Wick basically like dodging like, or, you know, I guess Neo more like in the, you're, you're a Keanu Reeves type character in this game, and you're like dodging bullets and like throwing knives and stuff.

That would not be great for

that's a very fun game.

I played that one for sure.

Rules.

It is so, so fun.

Ben, we do have to talk about this.

Your name on the chat right now is Battle Toads, Ben.

Battle Toads, Ben.

And we did talk about this a little bit.

I did ask you who your favorite Battle Toad is, and you did say Zit.

And that's the only correct answer, I think.

Wart's tough.

What's the other one?

I don't remember what.

I remember Wart.

What's that?

Is it Wart rash?

Rash.

I was about to say one of them was piss, and it's not piss.

But like if it was piss, you'd buy it.

You're sort of like, I guess one of them is piss.

You would not buy it because you were the child.

They're all skin conditioning.

And your parents definitely wouldn't buy you a game where it's like

zit

and rash and piss.

Yeah, Battletoad's much more.

Yeah.

They should, this is a free idea to anybody making a video game then.

As soon as you name your character piss, I'm buying the game.

Doesn't matter what kind of game it is.

I'm there.

But I was so excited when I was, you know,

I've recently discovered the show and have become a listener.

So

I love what y'all do and the joy with which you do it.

But

you have like a deep, you got a deep catalog.

And I discovered that you have a Battle Toads episode, I think, or the show has a Battle Toads episode.

Yeah.

I'll send it to you.

I think it's behind a paywall, but I'll get that over to you.

Oh, my God.

I would love to listen to it because that was one of those games that, again, like, there was a period of, and I should say, like, I tell a lot of people, I've told a lot of people, I think I've said this to Roman, when I was growing up, my parents wouldn't let me have a Nintendo.

They wouldn't let me play video games until I was, you know, maybe 12, 14 years old.

So I was always, I was the kid who would come over to your house and you'd be like, hey, let's play outside.

And I'd be like, hey, man, take me to the basement.

Show me the Nintendo.

And like, if you have snacks, that's cool.

And if you want to leave me there, that's also cool.

I just need, please, I got to have it.

Your hands gripping tighter and tighter around his neck

show me where it is man please um but like but battle toads was one of those early games that i played and

and i recently i i guess i was like poking around about this and realized it's it's also like connected to double dragon right like there was a combo version of the game i think there was battle toads versus double dragon where they all teamed up or battle toads x double dragon yes you're you're not incorrect this is a game Fair.

And

so, like, but what I remember of Battle Toads was it was a super hard game.

I mean, I was, you know, I was maybe nine, but like, it was such a hard game.

And it was, again, one of those games where you, you, you, I never progressed past, there was like a, there's a level where you're, you're like on a surfboard, or maybe it's more like it's like you're, you're, you're jumping over the, the, the walls.

And the walls flash for like a half second before they arrive on screen.

Yes.

And

I just, that's one of those games that has like a sense memory for me where I just,

I can remember the, you know, the Doritos dust on my fingertips and

the sweat of like trying to get past that level.

And I don't know if I ever did, but I loved that game.

It was a great game.

It's funny that

talking about your parents not letting you play video games reminds me of a very sort of semi-famous

in-gaming circles far side comic from the 90s or like maybe it was late 80s where it's a kid playing video games and the parents are daydreaming of a career in video games and the joke is that'll never happen because like that's what the far side is saying is oh that'll never happen these guys are all idiots and now

You can make so much money playing video games that the comic doesn't make sense.

Yeah.

Like it doesn't, the joke doesn't work.

You can make a lot of money.

You can affect politics in a very particular way.

It's all very interesting.

Yeah.

Yes.

Sometimes too interesting.

Yeah, it's a little too interesting.

Like, actually, everybody calm down.

Stop, actually.

Yeah.

Well, guys, before we get you out of here, I guess

I don't know if this is necessarily spoiling or could spoil, but I have

another question

just about video games and their impact on society at large.

Yeah.

Good or bad?

One word answer.

Bye.

No, no, I think like I, well, what I would say is,

so my son, I have twins who are eight years old.

My son is eight years old.

He is,

he's, he's, he loves Minecraft.

Yeah.

He loves,

he,

the Harry Potter game.

I have mixed feelings about, I don't know, I have

mixed feelings about the creator of Harry Potter, but my son loves that game.

I think that

games

like Dungeons and Dragons, for instance, which inspired a lot of video games, they do teach you to, number one, solve problems

and number two,

like have a safe space to try to solve problems problems and fail and try again.

And I think that they can lead you, especially in the case of things like Minecraft, they can lead you to be really creative, right?

I also think that they are, you know, I mean, this is going to maybe sound ridiculous to some of your listeners because who, you know, whoever bought the latest, you know,

PS5 Pro or whatever, but like.

They are also like relatively cheap.

Like you can, you can access games relatively cheaply.

And

I think having an interactive form of entertainment

that you can, that is, you know, relatively democratized, both in terms of playing, but also in terms of building now, like the fact that you can build games more easily,

that's a good thing.

I think where it gets problematic is when

we

you know, I think when we allow any sort of tech company to

not have any kind of um

consequences for you know whatever like fomenting hate or you know and and i think you know game companies have gotten better at policing this stuff i guess um and you know maybe i shouldn't even use the word policing i think it's complicated no for sure yeah but i think like you know it's it can be addicting to you and like that's a dangerous zone and so you know um limiting your limiting your time i think is for me that's an important thing but ultimately it's like so much of the the technology we use.

It can be a positive thing, it can be a negative thing.

It's just a tool and it's a technology.

And we just have to be intentional, careful, and thoughtful, and caring in the way that we use it and in the way that we use it together.

Wow.

That is the most thoughtful thing ever said on this show.

Yeah, truly.

Public radio.

What are you going to do?

Isaiah C.

I don't know.

I didn't think one of the frogs was called Piss early.

And my favorite battle total is Zit.

Thank you.

Goodbye.

Same show where we're like, toilets look like you should drink them.

But I'm curious, like, Roman, what do you think?

I feel like...

Oh, I think good.

I don't know.

I don't really have.

I feel exactly the same as you, but I think the dial is more towards good.

I also just think that you can't sort of argue that the world would be a better or worse place without video games.

You You just could argue it's just good, it would be a completely different world without them.

And that's really the sort of the sort of the end of it.

It's just like

they're a huge part.

And I think that in addition to you mentioning like there actually are careers in video games as evidenced by us being on podcasts now, is like it kind of trains you to think in ways that

are are perfect for the modern world in terms of problem solving,

in terms of, you know, just like quick thinking and dexterity and the sort of idea of if then you know decisions and complex decisions.

And

I think they're great.

I don't know.

I have a hard time thinking.

I do think that the social aspect of them that can sort of cause issues is the same social aspect that makes social media a problem, that makes

tabloids a problem.

Like everything.

When you get a bunch of people together, they can get together for nefarious ends as well as great ends.

And so that's just part of it all.

Well, guys, that was, I really enjoyed talking to you guys.

Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Why don't you guys plug the show again real quick and then we'll get you out of here?

Sure.

The six-part series is called Hidden Levels.

It's about how video games affect the world, and it's a co-production of 99% Invisible, which is my podcast, and Endless Thread, which is Ben Brock Johnson's podcast.

And it's going to come out wide on October 7th.

Yeah, we hope you'll listen.

Let us know

how much we got wrong.

Just kidding.

Guys, thanks so so much.

Yeah, thanks.

Thank you.

I really appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks, y'all.

It was great to be with you.

You can find Get Played wherever you get podcasts, and there's a link in the show notes.

We'll see you Tuesday for episode one of Hidden Levels.

Do you know Buffalo, New York?

Sure, they're famous for their wings.

More than that, it's a city with character.

Their waterfront is for making waves.

You can kayak right through the city and zipline among reimagined grain silos.

Buffalo is the kind of city where vintage finds, patio beers, and colorful murals all share the same block.

You can discover modern masterpieces in a museum that's a work of art and beautifully restored architecture with stories to tell.

And if you're the type to ask for directions, be ready.

Someone might just walk you there and point out hidden gems along way it's a city where history somehow feels brand new where your favorite meal might come from a corner bar and the community it's tightly knit but that fabric includes you too now you know that's buffalo for you learn more at visitbuffalo.com

This episode is brought to you by the Cosmopolitan of Las Vegas.

Las Vegas is magical at night.

When the sun sets, Las Vegas transforms.

And at the heart of it all is the Cosmopolitan of Las Vegas, a luxury resort destination where bold experiences unfold.

Sip a martini inside the chandelier, discover hidden speakeasies, striking art, and unforgettable views of the Bellagio fountains and the Las Vegas skyline from your terrace suite.

From restaurants to cocktail lounges and high-energy nightlife, every moment invites indulgence.

It's not just a hotel stay.

It's an only in Vegas experience.

Book your stay now at thecosmopolitanlasvegas.com.

Hello, beautiful nerds.

It's Roman here.

If you're loving 99% Invisible and you want to hear new episodes ad-free and get access to exclusive bonus content, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcast Plus on Apple Podcasts or visit seriousxm.com/slash podcast plus to start your free trial today.