The Detransitioner Panic

It pisses me off when people say like, oh, you just have to make it like harder to access care.

No,

no, because what?

I identified as trans for 14 years before I detransitioned.

Come on.

Hello, hello, and welcome back to A Bit Fruity.

My name is Matt Bernstein, and I am so happy that you're here today.

So let's just get right into it.

Detransition is the process through which someone who previously identified as transgender works to reverse their transition through social, medical, and legal means.

And detransition can happen for a whole bunch of different reasons, right?

For some people, it's regret.

For some people, it's social pressure to not be trans, you know, discrimination for being trans.

Maybe they had medical complications.

There's all sorts of reasons why this happens.

But if you have heard about people who have detransitioned, it's probably because they've become the center of this culture war, right?

Where conservative politicians have been weaponizing their stories over the last couple years to argue why essentially gender-affirming care should be illegal for everyone because it didn't work out for these select people.

Just a few weeks ago, PragerU, the massively influential and well-funded right-wing media website, they made this

documentary called D-Trans, which has a million and a half views in the last three weeks on YouTube.

A select few detransitioners, some of whom whom we'll talk about in this episode, are trotted out in front of governments all across the United States over and over and over and over and over again to testify about their stories of detransition, to persuade these governments to pass bills that will ban gender-affirming care for everybody.

Some of these detransitioners are making careers out of it in right-wing media, which I've talked about before on this podcast, is shockingly easy to do.

So, detransitioning has become a moral panic.

And a moral panic by definition is a widespread feeling of fear, often an irrational one, that some evil person or thing threatens the values, interests, or well-being of a community or society.

So in this case, it's, you know, the trans agenda, the gay agenda.

It's going to come for all of your kids and it's coming for all the young people and they're all going to start transitioning and then they're all going to regret it later on.

They're all going to have to detransition and they will have forever changed their bodies in ways that are irreversible.

And this is something that you need to care about now because it's coming for your kids too.

So in this episode, I want to make clear two things before we talk about anything else.

One is that detransitioners do exist and their stories matter.

And that's why we're talking about them today.

And their stories don't matter in the sense that they should be weaponized to take gender affirming care away from everyone and all the, you know, millions of trans people whose lives have been saved by it.

But they matter because they can benefit public health for trans and detrans people.

They can inform the way that medical professionals think about gender care.

And they matter because they're these people's experiences.

You know, all sorts of medical procedures have regret rates.

In fact, all of them do.

And talking about regret is important.

So their stories matter and we're going to talk about them.

The second thing I want to make clear is that detransitioning is rare.

And so I want to get into just some statistics really quick.

In an Associated press review of 27 different studies surveying 8,000 teens and adults who had gender-affirming surgeries, 1%

regretted them.

Now, like I just said, every medical procedure has a regret rate.

And so I'm going to run through a few.

Tattoos, which I don't know if you consider that a medical procedure, but it's something minors can do with parents' permission.

Tattoos have a 12% regret rate.

Knee replacements have a 20% regret rate.

21% of people regret their corrective spinal surgery.

14% of people regret their surgeries across all categories.

That's like the flat regret rate for all surgeries.

And then, you know, not a medical thing, but 52% of people regret taking out their student loans, which they take out, mind you, as minors.

This is all to say, I just think this idea that we should ban or severely restrict gender-affirming care because of 1% of people who seek it out regret it, it's just a flimsy argument.

Do we ban everything that anyone has ever regretted having?

Still, D-trans stories are important, not to fuel hysteria around banning trans healthcare for everyone, but, you know, trans people and people who have detransitioned share a lot of similar struggles.

I was reading the study in the National Library of Medicine about how a lot of D-trans people struggle to share their experiences.

They feel stigmatized and they struggle to have their physical and mental healthcare needs met because of the stigma and shame they feel for having detransitioned.

All of these feelings, as this study noted, are really similar to the ones that people who are actively transitioning face.

They wrote, quote, ongoing debates and the politicization of gender care have resulted in the depiction of trans and detrans people as completely distinct groups with divergent needs and experiences, and who are doomed to conflict.

However, we believe that trans and detrans people are more similar than different and that detransition research holds value for advancing the healthcare of all those who transition and for responsibly moving gender care research and practice forward.

And so yeah, conservative politicians would like you to think that every person who has ever detransitioned immediately turns into some anti-trans activist.

And that's just not the case.

And that's really why I wanted to make today's episode.

So today we are joined by Lucy, who I actually found on Twitter.

She had posted a mirror selfie wearing a black dress with the caption, as a detrans woman, the last thing I want to be seen as is a victim.

I live by my choices and I see that just because D-transition was the right path for me doesn't mean it is for everyone.

Fuck transphobia.

Lucy, welcome to A Bit Fruity.

Thank you, Matt.

I'm really, really happy to be on here.

So we are going to discuss a lot today, but I want to start for myself and for the listener.

Like, I want to hear about you, about your journey, about your transition, about your detransition, how old you were.

Like, just tell me about yourself and I'll ask questions as I see fit.

It all started when I was 11 years old and I found out that being trans was a thing.

I learned that there were people out there who were born as one gender and then decided that they wanted to transition to another.

And I had an instant recognition of like, oh, that's me because I had such an alienation to my body at the time.

For context, I was born in Australia and I moved to the Netherlands when I was eight and I had a lot of struggles with like social connection as well.

So I was like, just not feeling like I fit in anywhere.

And this was something that I was just like, oh, okay, I finally understand why I feel so much malaise.

Like, what, like, what's wrong with me?

Yeah.

Was that through the internet that you discovered trans topics?

No, actually, this was

in sex ed when I was 11 in primary school.

I had a very progressive teacher who was like, oh, yeah, like, you know, there's people out there who transition.

Like, this is a thing that exists.

And I was like, oh, my God, that's me.

I have such vivid memories of that.

Like, I remember where I was sitting in the classroom.

Did you grow up, like, quote unquote, feeling like a boy?

Or was it kind of just like a more profound mismatch with your body or something else?

I guess, like, I have like a lot of sisters.

I have four sisters.

And comparatively, like, I was a little bit more tomboy-ish.

And I just kind of thought, like, and, you know, I like wanted to shop at the boy section.

And the interesting thing is, is that my parents also have memories of me saying, like, I'm a boy.

So, like, like, even before that, as young as even three, like, when I was talking, I was like, Yeah, I'm a boy.

So, this was not something that was just completely new.

I was like, oh, yeah,

maybe I am one.

So, I learned about it at 11, and I came out to my dad at 12.

And the first thing he asked me was, why do you feel that way?

And I had researched and I had come to describe what I was feeling as dysphoria.

Like, I felt this intense mismatch with how my body was and how I felt that it should be.

So shortly after that, I went to my GP and we discussed putting me on the track to transition.

My mom wasn't like super on board with it.

You were 12 at this point?

I was 12.

I was really young, but I was also like a very mature child.

That's what I was told at least.

So I was like, oh yeah, well, makes sense.

I've been doing a lot of introspection and I've come to this conclusion.

So makes sense.

So I was put on a waiting list.

So because I live in the Netherlands, my parents were like, okay, we're going to follow like the Dutch protocol, which is basically being assessed by multiple doctors.

In order to get hormones or anything.

Right.

To start like any form of medical transition, you have to go through like a lot of hoops and barriers.

From the ages of like 12 to 15, 16, I was on a waiting list.

I was constantly in therapy.

I was always talking to a psychologist.

I think like weekly.

A lot of psych appointments for a young teen.

And then

when I was 16 around that time, I was allowed to start my diagnostic process.

And in that time, I was assessed by three different psychologists who each individually came to the conclusion that I had gender dysphoria.

And upon coming to that conclusion, a few months later, I started hormone blockers.

I think I had just turned 17 at that point.

So this is now you're five years into your sort of realization.

Yeah, like five, like privately identifying with it at 11 to like, yeah, 16, starting hormone blockers.

And hormone blockers were not a cakewalk,

like not in the slightest.

Because you essentially become menopausal, especially if you've like been going through puberty for a while at that point.

So I went through menopause at 16.

That was great.

Wow.

16, 17.

And

shortly, like, I think six months after that, on December 16th, 2013, I got my first shot of testosterone.

It took about a year and a half before I was allowed to have my first surgery, which is what I was looking forward to for the longest time.

I had top surgery at 19.

Which is a double mastectomy?

Double mastectomy, yes.

And then six months after that, I believe.

No, March and then October.

So wait, sorry, you were 19 when you got your double mastectomy?

Indeed.

So I was actually, but I did start hormones like under the age of 18.

So I was in essence a minor who was accessing medical transition.

March my top surgery and then October I had my eradical hysterectomy.

And radical hysterectomy is not only the removal of the uterus, but also of the ovaries.

So basically that was it for me.

I considered myself done with my transition at that point.

So yeah, for the next, God, from 19 to 26, seven years, I identified as trans mask, a trans man, trans mask non-binary, always aligned with feeling more male than female.

Whatever that means, I guess.

And in 2020, during the pandemic, I had a top surgery revision because I

had some issues with my initial top surgery and I was not entirely satisfied with the results.

So that needed to be corrected.

Which is like relatively common with top surgery and like all sorts of procedures.

For real, yeah, a lot of people do this, so I was just like, oh yeah, this is, this is normal, this is fine.

And it wasn't until last year, I guess.

Yeah, no, this started like around 2021, October, that I was like leaning more, like, yeah, like more transmasculon binary, but still like presenting as male to basically the entire world.

And I guess it started when I started noticing that I wasn't really happy with like having facial hair.

And I was just like, you know what?

I feel like my brand of androgyny is like having like a bit of muscle,

having a smooth face.

Like, I want to get laser on my face.

So I started that process.

Oh my god, I'm the same way.

I also want a bit of muscle, but never facial.

Right, right.

Okay, see, like, there you go.

So other people feel this way too.

So I was like, yeah, I rationalized it.

Like, oh yeah,

I'm still a boy.

It's still me.

So started getting laser on my face I also met my ex-boyfriend around that time and he came from quite a conservative background for Belgian people who may be listening he was a fan of Flams Belong which is a very right-wing party but I was not aware of that and I was kind of like ah like he's still sweet it's fine but the thing is his family and his circles were like very binarist so they were not really cool with like anything non-binary so they kind of like saw me me as his girlfriend, even though he would like refer to me as his partner.

Like either by gender-neutral terms or masculine terms, like he would not actually refer to me as his girlfriend.

So through interactions with his family and the people around him, I was like, maybe it isn't that bad to occupy a feminine social role.

Maybe this is something that I'm cool with.

So I just rolled with it.

But all of the, I guess, like, dysphoria that was mounting in the background plus this like realization that I was cool with being seen as a woman.

It kind of culminated in me watching movie Everything Everywhere All at Once.

And that was like my light bulb moment of like, oh, but what if I just decided to teleport myself to a universe in which I am a woman?

Like, what would that mean?

What would that look like?

And yeah, like two days after that, one of my closest friends came out to me as a trans woman.

And the next day, I called her up and was like, girl, I need to tell you something.

I came out to her as a trans.

She was like, I'm trans.

And you were like, and I'm not

basically, basically.

But yeah,

I think that her coming out and me coming out right after was very instrumental in, like,

I guess, my philosophy surrounding detransition in that she said, like, we're going to go through the same things.

We're both going to be taking estrogen.

We're both going to have to like contend with like facial hair removal.

Yeah.

We have to do with like a little bit of voice training, maybe.

Like, we got to do stuff that looks very similar.

So we're the same.

And

yeah, that's

kind of like the transition and detransition.

Well, it is so interesting that you mention your friends transitioning the same time that you decided to detransition and like finding the unity in that.

Because with D-transitioners becoming this chess piece in a culture war around transphobia, it is so like, you know, the picture is painted by conservative media that all D-trans people like hate trans people hate the idea that people can be trans they're like fundamentally against trans people existing like chloe cole who we're about to talk about but the reality and some you know researchers are starting to arrive at this is that like the process that trans and just the things that trans people go through and the things that detrans people go through as far as social stigma as far as medical stigma and not being able to access the care you need because you know your stories are so marginalized whether you're trans or detrans are so similar and can inform one another and so I think that that's played out in real life for you yeah basically I think that it's it's so bizarre to me that we're like D-trans people are just like oh yeah we're supposedly seen as like trans folks but it's like this was 14 years of my life 15 if you count the time that I was not out to anyone

I would not want to turn my back on the community that held me when I was the most fragile in my life.

Like, I know I've like summarized the events, but what I'm cutting out of this story is the amount of depression and pain I felt in what I thought was my gender dysphoria when I was young.

Like that was not easy.

I was struggling and being trans saved my life.

Regret is a word that comes up so often around these conversations.

And I want to emphasize that detransition and regret are not synonymous.

You know, and I'm saying this for the listener.

People transition for all sorts of reasons and regret can be one of them and regret can be part of it.

And I want to know for you, like you said that transitioning at a certain point in your life did save your life.

And like that didn't turn out to be the long-term decision that was best for you, but do you have regret involved?

Because, you know, obviously people are going to ask, you know, you had a medical transition

that was invasive.

And so when you, I guess, look back on your transition, your detransition, like, is regret part of that story?

I think that the regret that I have is mostly centered around like later medical decisions because in hindsight, if I hadn't gotten my top surgery revision, I might have been better off with like, you know, having a bit of extra loose skin so that my boobs could grow back a little bit better.

That is literally it.

But if I look at the man that I once was, the identify, the identity that I used to hold, it protected me from so much of the world and it allowed me to experience the world in a way that I simply would not have if I hadn't transitioned.

It's like, there's no reset button on this.

So if I regret, then I'm only holding myself back from my healing and I only see that there is a way forward.

The regret isn't really it for me.

Yeah.

So would you say that you like what, how do you identify now?

I mean, do you identify as a cis woman?

Do you identify as a detransitioner?

Like, what language do you use, if any, to describe, you know, your experience?

Well, first and foremost, I use she, they, and he pronouns.

Might as well get that out of the way.

Um, I do identify myself as queer, but I specifically identify myself as detransgender in opposition to the term detransitioner.

There are things that I experience that are uniquely tied to my experience as a detrans person.

Like my dating experience is certainly different from most other people I know, just to name an example.

I actively identify with my detransition.

And also to further clarify the term detransgender, I want to use this term in opposition to TERFs who would want to weaponize me for their causes because if I call myself detransgender, a word that contains the word transgender, they won't want to associate themselves with me.

Also to further define detransgender, the D, it's not a negative prefix.

It means of or from.

So of transgender origin.

That's what it means.

And so I don't actually like the term detransitioner for myself, but if other people use it, it's like, okay, you can call me that, but I consider myself something else.

Because you think of it less as like undoing something and more progressing onward from something.

I'm post-trance.

It's something else.

And you mentioned to me, we were on the phone the other day preparing for the recording.

And I want to mention part of why you told me that you're here today, which is that we're going to talk about the Prager U documentary later, but you were part of, you were interviewed for a documentary in where you live in Europe, where, well, do you want to explain your experience with that?

Right.

So for the listeners, I live in the Netherlands and there is a show on the public network called Zembla.

And this is like a investigative journalism type show.

very hard-hitting.

And they released an episode called Hitzhunschender Protocol or the Transgender Protocol.

And

it was basically researching the scientific validity or scientific basis for the use of puberty blockers in minors.

And I went into this documentary hearing from the journalists that they had interviewed a D-trans person who regretted their transition and a trans person who was content with their transition.

So I was like, wow.

diverse opinions.

I would like to be a part of this.

I want to add my voice to the pile.

But when it was released, I felt as though that all the happiness from my story had been edited out and they really want to focus on framing me as someone who had undergone permanent changes that I was not happy with.

And it's really funny to me because they also explicitly say in the documentary, like, she has to take female hormones for the rest of her life.

And the funny thing is, is like, I see benefits, I see upsides to the fact that I take HRT.

Have you any idea how nice it is not to have a hormone cycle and always be stable?

It's great.

So they took all the good out of my story and just framed it in such a negative way.

And just another thing.

The way they edited it, they didn't tell the audience at the beginning that I was D-trans, nor did they refer to me as queer.

They presented me as an unhappy trans woman in the beginning, and then you get the little gotcha surprise at the end where it's like, oh, but actually she was, she's afab.

Like, oh.

there's a lot.

There's a lot.

They kind of do like a caricature of your experience to like feed into this.

Like,

that's really, that's really awful.

I'm sorry that it was done that way.

It's fucked up.

But now you're here, and we're not going to fuck you up in the edit.

Exactly.

And the Netherlands is not a very litigious country.

I'm not going to sue them.

It's unheard of to do that kind of thing here.

So instead, I'd much rather leverage new media to fight old media.

So thank you so much for having me on here for this.

Yeah, of course.

I'm so happy that you're here.

Before we continue, this show is only made possible through the help of our sponsors.

And so I want to give a quick shout out to the sponsor of today's episode, Blue Land.

The holidays are a time, obviously, of giving, but also a time of a lot of waste.

And if you're looking for an option that holds those two conflicting truths together at once, in, in my opinion, a very chic bottle, might I suggest to you Blue Land.

Blue Land is is on a mission to eliminate single-use plastic by reinventing cleaning essentials to be better for you and the planet.

The idea with Blue Land is pretty much instead of buying, you know, a bottle of hand soap over and over and over again every time you run out, you just buy one of Blue Land's forever bottles, fill it with water, and throw in one of your Blue Land tablets, and bam, you have a fresh bottle of hand soap.

And when you run out of it, instead of buying a whole new bottle, which is wasteful and can be expensive, you just throw in another one of Blue Land's tablets with some water and bam, you have more hand soap.

Those refill tablets start for as little as $2.25.

So it's not only super eco-friendly, but also friendly on your wallet.

I'm currently using the Blue Land Foaming Hand Soap in my kitchen.

I'm using it in the scent evergreen, which is just delicious for this time of year.

Right now, Blue Land has a special offer for a bit fruity listeners.

Right now you can get 15% off your first order by going to blue land.com slash fruity.

Again, that is blue land.com slash fruity for 15% off.

Blueland.com slash fruity.

Online, you, as I said, you know, I found you through this tweet where you were basically like, I'm a D-trans person.

This is my experience, but I, you know, it's my experience.

It's not the experience of trans people.

And, you know, you've basically kind of created a presence online affirming trans people and doing so from the perspective of someone who detrans and not affirming them in spite of your detransition, but like it feels like it's very informed by your detransition.

And so, you know, things like the tweet that I found you from that kind of circulated, like, what is your motivation for being outspoken in that way?

So, the main reason why I decided to like be so public with it is that I realized that there isn't, or at least I have not seen a pro-trans, pro-LGBTQ plus D-trans voice.

And And I feel like that there's a need to bring more nuance to this conversation because it is so reductive to say, well, this thing didn't work for me.

It's not going to work for anyone.

When I have people in my life, like that friend who came out to me, like a friend who is a trans man, and I give him his testosterone shots because I did that for years.

So, and he's scared of needles or doesn't want to do it himself.

So I do it for him.

And I just figured that there have to be more people out there like me.

And that's why I started making TikToks about my my experience and i've managed to reach an audience of people who feel the same i've met people who have a similar timeline to me people who reach out saying like i recognize myself in your experience and it's like wow clearly there's something that's being said and they're not giving the entire story like these conservatives are only showing one piece of a very large puzzle yeah that's my main motivation i just want to show that like you can detransition it doesn't mean you're transphobic it doesn't mean that you're trying to take healthcare away from people Well, speaking of the one piece that conservatives do like to parade around,

I want to talk about a woman named Chloe Cole.

What do you know about Chloe Cole?

I know that she is often speaking out against trans healthcare.

I know that she is a detransitioner.

And I've heard, and I cannot confirm this, this is a,

that she gets paid to do so, or that she gets some kind of monetary uh compensation but i could be wrong about that i i would like to be corrected about any misconceptions i have so chloe cole is a 19-year-old woman who detransitioned a few years ago and she is like the face of the detrans culture war you know she is paraded around fox news and around the country she gets flown left and right to testify in front of like different governmental bodies, state governments, federal governments across the United States to testify in favor of bills that seek to limit trans healthcare.

And basically she just repeats her experience and her trauma of detransitioning in front of all of these different people, in front of the internet, in front of everyone,

and finishes everything with like, you know, let my story be a warning.

I want to talk about her now because I feel like on paper, your stories are not very different.

But you have arrived at very different ideological places.

So Chloe Cole began transitioning when she was 12.

And this is like a legitimately horrible thing that happened.

She was sexually assaulted when she was in eighth grade and afterwards began binding her breasts.

She was prescribed hormones when she was 13.

and she took them for two years before getting a double mastectomy with her parents' permission at 15.

And then when she was 17, a few years later, she realized that she might want to breastfeed and that she was running the risk of not being able to.

And so at 17, she began detransitioning.

And she's kind of parlayed this.

Obviously, first of all, that's a really, really, really, really tight timeline of her story, which I'm sure has, you know, all sorts of detail and nuance to it that you know, we don't have time for today.

But case in point, she transitioned, she detransitioned, and she now kind of parlays that experience into what is ultimately becoming a career in politics, a career in right-wing politics at that.

So I want to show you, Lucy, a video, a little clip from Chloe Cole.

This was published by the Daily Caller, which is Ben Shapiro's news outlet.

And she was testifying before a governmental body.

Again, like in favor of one of these bills that's trying to limit trans healthcare.

And so for most of her testimony, she is describing her detransition and how harrowing it was.

And then at the end, she says, Today, I should be at home with my family celebrating my 19th birthday.

And instead, I'm making a desperate plea to

my elected representatives, learn the lessons from other medical scandals like the opioid process.

to recognize that doctors are human too, and sometimes they are wrong.

My childhood was ruined along with thousands of detransitioners that I know through our networks.

This needs to stop.

You alone can stop it.

Enough children have already been victimized by this barbaric pseudoscience.

Please let me be your final warning.

So, what is your reaction to that?

I don't think that a warning is what it should be.

I think that this is information and an experience that should be taken on board to benefit.

gender care, to improve gender care, to allow us to develop a better understanding of like why some people might detransition over people who don't, people who identify as trans and are trans.

Because I don't want to like, not that I'm trying to make it about myself.

Make it about yourself.

That's why you're here.

Sure.

Okay.

Fine.

Right.

So one thing that stopped me from realizing that I needed to detransition was the fact that I, to my knowledge at least, had never been sexually assaulted.

over the course of my life.

That was not something in my history, but I read many times online, like, oh yeah, a lot of people who detransition are survivors of sexual abuse.

And because that was not a thing for me, it's just like, it never even occurred to me that I might need to detransition.

And from what I hear in what she's saying here is that she's still in a lot of pain and she's trying to save people from her perspective.

And that's a very, I can see that that's a noble thing to want to do, to save other people.

However, it's not conducive to overall public health because there are people who desperately need to transition because it is life-saving to them.

It was life-saving to me.

If I had not accessed trans health care, I probably wouldn't be here today.

Like that's,

it's real.

Like, when I watched that the first time, I made a note and I, you know, she was,

she said, enough children have already been victimized by this barbaric pseudoscience, which, okay, first of all, this is not pseudoscience.

Every major medical organization in the United States and globally supports the idea that trans healthcare is life-saving for the vast majority of people who seek it out.

The vast majority of people don't detransition.

And this is life-saving.

And so I just wrote how many kids have been victimized by being denied healthcare.

You hit the nail on the head there.

The other thing is, she compares the trans healthcare to the opioid crisis.

She is very rhetorically skilled.

I will say that.

And she is preparing herself for a very lucrative career on the conservative talk show circuit.

I have thoughts about that.

Tell me.

So my main issue when I see other D-trans people speaking out on the right wing is that, honey, they don't see you as human.

They don't.

They dehumanize you.

That's why they want you to call yourself broken and mutilated and destroyed and ruined.

The whole thing is like you are there to be paraded around as a not trying i i don't refer to myself like this i don't see anyone this way this is just like me parroting their rhetoric they want to see you as a freak show they want to see you so that they can be like look this is what like she's ruined because like i get transphobia thrown at me by right-wingers who be like what are you male or female and it's like well Traditionally, you would see me on your side because you see me as validating your point of view, right?

But you trying to be insultive and like rude to me is not really winning you any favors with me liking you more.

They don't see you as your, their own.

They don't see you as their own.

They just want to hold you up as like an example of, look what happens when it goes wrong.

One of the most amazing things to me about the kind of detransition or moral panic is you constantly have all of these people being like, they're detransitioning en masse.

Like everyone is detransitioning.

This is a huge problem for thousands and thousands and thousands of people like everywhere.

They're all going to detransition.

And it's like, if everyone is detransitioning, why do you only ever have Chloe Cole?

It's only ever this one girl.

There's maybe, like, if you count all of the people who have made more than one media appearance, there's like maybe 10.

But every time they talk about how this is like the biggest problem that's going to be hitting the airwaves, and then it's just like, Chloe Cole again.

And I'm like,

Chloe Cole's story matters.

Lucy, your story matters.

All of the D-trans stories matter.

But if there are so goddamn many of them, why are we only ever hearing from Chloe Cole?

Like, why do we need to fly Chloe Cole into all of the 50 states to testify for detransitioner bills?

Shouldn't there be detransitioners in those states who are willing to speak out?

It's just Chloe Cole.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, but like, there's nothing I can really say to that.

They are showing the same people over and over again.

But I would hope that the reason for that is that other D-trans people recognize that it's not conducive to your own personal healing after processing whatever it is that was the original reason that you transitioned, whatever that may be, that it's better to do that in a private setting and not on a national stage for everyone to critique you, criticize you, to nitpick your appearance.

Like, I've heard some, like, people will say really nasty things about D-trans people.

Yeah.

Just and like, just continue to open that wound that they're feeling of, like, oh, the regret that they feel.

It's, it's not healthy.

Yeah.

And I, I mean, if Chloe Cole wasn't using her story and her perspective to really honestly, violently strip away rights from other people, like

my heart would truly go out to her.

My heart does go out to her because, like I said, her story is harrowing.

But my heart also goes out to her because I think to your point, she is being dehumanized by these people who are propping her up.

They see her as, I think, this like fundamentally broken mistake of a human being.

I don't think they see her as a human being.

They darned.

And I think as soon as the microphones get cut off and the lights go down and everyone goes home, I don't think her story from the perspective of public health, from the perspective of humanity, you know, I don't think her story matters to them in any way other than advancing their own political goals.

And I would, if I were in her shoes, I would struggle to sit with that.

If they actually gave a shit about her, they would be like, honey, not here.

Let's go to a therapist and let's talk about this so that you can do it healthily.

The fact that she's 19 also strikes me as something quite interesting because I remember when I was younger, like maybe not 19, but maybe more like 16 or so, I was very dogmatic about identity.

I was very binarist in my thinking.

And I really don't like the person that I was when I was that age.

Okay, does anyone like who they are when they're 19?

No, no.

I think being 19 is the worst thing that can happen to anyone.

Basically.

So

the fact that she's so young and having this like binaries mindset, what I've noticed as well in like reactions to my own D-trans identity from everyone who's like in that age bracket is that they're like, oh, you're cis.

Like they're telling me, they're forcing an identity on me.

And she's like, also, like, very binaries in her thinking.

So, I think that part of her dogmatic kind of way of speaking about this has to do with her age.

I feel like if you gave her, like, put her in a more, you know, caring environment for like eight years or so, maybe she would like kind of align a bit more with, like, yeah, well, people have different experiences, and it didn't go that way for me.

And I think that is just an aspect of like maturing as like a human being, as an adult.

Speaking of the 10 people that the right-wing media apparatus parades around, there is another one who I would like to introduce to the conversation with a video.

Joy.

If you had a one-on-one with a child who was struggling with gender dysphoria, what would you say to them?

I would just say just remain strong, find love within your heart.

You know, also going to church is very helpful when you hear the teachings of Jesus from the Bible.

It's just very positive.

And, you know, some kids, feel lost, they feel confused.

So, I would just say to the kids, you know, you will get through this, stay strong.

This is just the phase.

You know, you one day are going to be a great, successful person.

You're going to have a great career.

You're going to have a great education.

So, just please hang in there, be strong, and just know that there's people out there that will support you.

You know, family, friends, there are

psychiatrists, there are people out there to help.

So, you know, if any kid is watching this and feeling confused or lost, just know that there's people out there that can help.

Do you know who that is?

I know exactly who that person is.

And my heart rate just, I, it just kicked up like, I know, by like 30 beats per minute or something like that.

That, I had a very, I have a very visceral reaction to Ollie London.

Okay.

So

it is Ollie London.

Tell me what you know about Ollie London.

I know that Ollie London probably altogether has spent over £130,000

on plastic surgery.

So no, I know who Ollie London is.

And when I tell you that he is the reason why I started making TikToks, I am being dead serious.

Let me give, for the listener, I'm going to give the basic overview of Oliver London, who is who you just heard speaking.

Ollie London is one of the 10 people who are paraded around.

And the fact that he gets taken seriously in this conversation of trans issues and specifically detransitioning is a miracle.

And I think a scathing indictment of how little

genuine effort and research goes into these stories from the right-wing politicized perspective on this issue.

So, Ollie London is a white British gay 33-year-old.

I apologize if he no longer identifies as gay.

I can't keep up with him, but you know,

he in the mid-2010s began idolizing the K-pop star Jimin Jimin

from

BTS.

I'm sorry, I'm not a big K-pop person, but I know that it's the whole thing.

So, in 2013, he started.

Also, this entire story, by the way, is incredibly racist, and I apologize on behalf for like having to deliver it in a straightforward way.

Just know that I'm acknowledging how racist this whole thing is.

But basically, in 2013, he started getting surgeries to make himself look Korean.

In total, over the

last decade, he has gotten 32 surgeries, including six nose job, an eye surgery, a facelift, a brow lift, a temple lift, a teeth procedure, which I assume they're referring to veneers, and skin whitening injections, which is just fucking wild.

In 2021, he began identifying as transracial in March 2022.

Okay.

Again, I'm sorry.

This is like so fucking racist.

Like I was researching it and I was like, how do I tell this without reproducing the racism of Ollie London?

But okay, and so just can I also just like say as a half white, half Asian person, I have extra amounts of

there's there's layers to my feelings towards Ollie London just

so much.

So in March 2022, he announced that he had plans for a penis reduction surgery, stating that, quote, in Korea, the average penis is like 3.5 inches people say oh you can't be Korean you're not 100% Korean and I just want to be 100% Korean I would even have a penis reduction so I'm like quote the Korean average

okay this is the person who gets taken seriously by Fox News like he's literally been on Fox News to discuss detransitioners We're not even done though.

Again, so that was in March 2022.

And then shortly thereafter, he briefly started identifying as a trans woman and announced plans for surgeries to start looking like, is it Rose from Blackpink?

Rose, yeah.

Rose, yeah.

Who's another K-pop star, a female K-pop star.

And then by October of the same year, so we're less than six months in of him going from transracial to transracial trans woman, he said that he was transitioning back to male.

So now he's starting his detransition.

In November, one month later, he began identifying as a detransitioner and publicly converted to Christianity and announced that he was getting baptized.

And I looked at, so this is November of last year.

This is just over a year ago.

And I looked at some of the like Christian and conservative media outlets reporting on this.

And they just like reported on it straightforwardly at the time.

They were like, D-transitioner Ali London bravely converts to Christianity and announced baptism plans.

And it's like, oh my God, guys, he identified as Korean and spent like hundreds of thousands of dollars on certain.

This is not someone that we should be taking seriously in the gender conversation.

This is, he's like a little bit loony-toons.

He's very loony toons.

And I don't know that this is the person we need to be turning into a mascot, but we're not done.

In August of 2023, so just a few months ago, he published a book called, quote, Gender Madness, One Man's Devastating Struggle with Woke ideology and his battle to protect children, which, like, first of all, fuck the publisher who decided to give that the go-ahead because there are a lot of people responsible for putting a book out to market.

And letting someone who is so transparently not serious about any of this and is solely looking to make any decision that he needs to make along the way to make his experience the most profitable that it can be, not doing a hint of research into that and just like being like, yeah, let's publish a book.

He's a detransitioner.

Let's publish a book called Gender Madness.

Like, are you kidding me?

So now he, yeah, he's a conservative talk show circuit guy, as I just showed you.

He's self-identifies as a detransitioner and kind of an expert on the detransition culture war.

I find it interesting.

We apparently decided to detransition around the same time.

However, my detransition was preceded by nearly a decade and a half of transition.

And as you said, he's completely unserious about it.

And it made me so angry because, to my knowledge, there aren't any other European D-trans people, D-transitioners, whatever you want to call us.

Who speak out?

Who speak out.

So it really bothered me that this is what people think when they think European D-trans person.

They think Ollie London.

So I was like, no, no, no, no, this cannot be.

I have to add my voice to the conversation.

So I started posting TikToks after reading a tweet.

I forget what tweeted it was of his, but I was like, no,

this cannot be.

I need to say something.

So, thank you, Ollilan, for kick-starting my

video creation journey, but also fuck you for all the damage that you're doing to D-trans people, our image.

Like, this is not conducive to the public image of D-trans people, nor is it conducive to improving gender care for anyone.

And also, like, the whole transracial thing, that's, it's just, it's just too much.

It's just too much.

Like, no, you don't get to cosplay someone else's ethnicity.

What is wrong with you, mate?

I struggle.

I don't really struggle, but I struggle a little bit because I don't want to get in the place of like,

just categorically,

I'm a very like, your experience is yours.

And I'm not here to tell you that it's invalid.

If there was ever a person...

for whom I was to maybe qualify that belief on, it would be Ali London.

I do not think his experience.

Well, do you think his experience is valid?

Do you think he is a valid voice in the D-trans world for having identified as a female Korean pop star for six months?

Matt, I'm like you.

I also don't want to call people's stories or experiences invalid or anything.

But yes, categorically to Ollie London, absolutely.

Like, I remember when he like came...

came out as like this

trans racial person.

And I remember seeing like his attempts at K-pop videos.

And at the time, I think I was still into K-pop.

I was not pleased with it.

I was like, well, this is just yellowface.

And then later down the line, that he starts identifying.

First, it was like, I think I identified as non-binary at some point.

He used they, them pronouns.

Yeah, I think that was for maybe a month or something.

Yeah.

So I was like, okay, maybe there's like some gender issues happening and that's okay.

But then, but then all of this went down and it was just horrifying to see.

I think that if I wanted a career in right-wing media and I wanted guest spots on Fox News, I could see how in the span of like a year and a half, being like, I'm white.

No, I identify as Korean.

No, I identify as Rose from Blackpink.

Now

I saw the light.

Now I identify as a Christian conservative who's baptized.

I think, like I said, it's such an indictment of the people who platform him on these shows to be like, this is a legitimate voice in this conversation.

He is an expert.

Why is anyone publishing his fucking book?

I think it really is.

I mean, look, ultimately, like,

no, I mean, I really think he is a damaging person because, like you've said, I think the stories of detransitioners are important,

not for politics, but for public health, for gender care.

And he's not interested in public health, obviously.

I don't think he's interested in anything but himself, but in the process, he is enriching himself culturally with cultural capital and actual capital.

He is dangerous in being one of the loudest D-trans voices with no interest in, you know, doing anything but profiting from a culture war.

Differently from Chloe Cole, I feel like it's just, to use a very archaic internet term, it's for the luls.

He's doing it for funsies.

And he doesn't see that the weight of his words, it has a massive impact for people who want to listen to him, for these right-wingers, because they can uphold him as like, look, he used to be like a complete freak, and now he's one of us.

I was watching videos of him in preparation for this podcast.

I was like, what is the world really making of Ollie London?

Like, he's so easy for people like us, especially people who have followed his kind of character arc, to like just kind of giggle at him and be like, whatever, like, whatever.

But the videos of him, there are thousands of comments of people being like, wow, it is so brave of him to own up to his decisions and his mistakes.

And I'm like, Jesus fucking.

And those, each of those comments will have like thousands of likes and people are like, wow, what a guy.

And I'm like, oh my God.

Anyway, can we talk about this PragerU documentary?

Let's.

I haven't seen it.

So.

well, so okay.

Basically, I've talked about Prager U a bunch before, but if you, the listener, don't know what Prager U is,

it's a conservative content farm.

It's Prager Prager University is what it's called, but it's not a university.

And I always like to make that clear.

It's a media company that makes these right-wing videos about all sorts of things.

They make videos that like for kids that are like, one of them was like, slavery wasn't that bad.

Like that kind of thing.

It's very history denial.

It's very culture war.

Now in Florida, they're allowing that those videos are played in schools.

It's a hellfire.

But they put out, three weeks ago, they put out a documentary.

They called it a documentary.

It was 20 minutes long.

It's called D-Trans, and it is about all the things that we've been talking about today.

One thing that I didn't realize was, so basically, when it came out a few weeks ago, if you went on Twitter or X or whatever the fuck, there was a period of a few days where you were forced to see ads for this short film, D-Trans.

It was like every single ad space on Twitter was occupied by Prager U promoting this film.

And that was weird because it came up for me and that, you know, ads tend to be targeted.

Like that's why when you go on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, and it's like, if you've been looking at fuzzy socks for the holidays on other websites, you're going to get ads for fuzzy socks.

I do not look at detrans stuff i do not look at prager you i do not look at right-wing stuff unless i'm researching for the podcast and so i was like why the hell is this coming up in my ad spots and it's because prager you spent one million dollars to promote this film and god knows elon musk needs the money right now because twitter is like falling through the cracks but um it's interesting so that yeah they publicly said they they it was a one million dollar ad campaign to promote this detrans video youtube rejected the money and it's playing on YouTube.

It has a million and a half views on YouTube, but it's not advertised anywhere on YouTube.

But Elon was like, you know what?

And it's also not even for the million dollars for him.

He also just like hates trans people.

He hates his daughter.

You're right.

He hates his trans daughter.

And so I'm sure he was very excited to promote this.

But basically, I watched it.

It's, you know.

It's kind of what you would expect.

It's like a couple stories of D-trans people who are like, I was mutilated.

I hate myself forever because of this.

This needs to be banned.

This is dangerous.

They're transing all the children and they're all going to regret it.

You know, and it has this very, like, it's, it's filmed very dramatically.

It has like very dark music.

It kind of reminds me of, like, do you remember those in the early 2000s, they had kind of like the don't do drugs, like public service announcements?

In the Netherlands, we didn't have those.

Oh, well.

But I'm aware of the this is your brain on drugs.

Exactly.

It's like a fried egg.

Yeah.

So it's like dramatic sting cut to someone looking really, really sad with like a blue wash over it.

Like I, no, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Yes.

That was the whole, it was very, this is your brain on drugs.

And in fact, that was my brain after I finished watching the video.

But anyway,

Ollie London and Chloe Cole both make appearances.

It's not about either of them.

And I knew they were going to include Chloe Cole, but I was like, okay, Ollie London, like really,

you're, Any credibility in this video has kind of shot itself in the foot.

But one of the main subjects of the film is a woman named Daisy Strongen.

Do you know who she is?

I became aware of her through the D-Trans documentary.

And as I said, I hadn't seen it, but from what I understood, she may have detransitioned, but she still experiences gender dysphoria.

And that's all I know.

Yeah, so it's interesting.

So she describes, you know, like all of these things, she describes her experience.

She always kind of didn't feel like other girls growing up and she experienced really severe depression.

And at some point, she discovered, you know, trans topics on the internet and really identified with them and started seeking hormones and eventually got her double mastectomy.

And, you know, the theme under the whole kind of film is this like, I was rushed and I went to the doctor once and they handed me the knife and we they cut me up and it was all so easy.

And so what's interesting is like I was looking her up after I watched the documentary and she didn't start hormones until she was 18,

which is a legal adult in the United States.

And so, and she didn't get, she took them for two years before getting her double mastectomy when she was 20.

And so I think to make her one of the subjects of a film that ostensibly is about how dangerous trans healthcare is for minors, but she wasn't even a minor.

Like she was fully an adult.

And so I don't know what I'm supposed to conclude from her story.

Like she regrets something that she did as an adult.

And so should we strip everyone of their rights anytime anyone regrets anything?

Basically, I also just had a realization.

I am aware of Daisy Strowman, but more specifically, I know of a video that, if I'm not mistaken, I know a video she made before she detransitioned.

If I'm not mistaken, she made a video about Jordan Peterson and how she was, she understood his perspective on pronouns.

Oh, great.

I just remembered that.

So there are, like you mentioned, there were some tweets.

I can't even say tweets that surfaced, but they're like recent tweets from September and November of this year that people after the D-trans documentary came out where she was basically like scorching the earth around trans issues.

So in September, she tweeted, I don't want people to think that just because I've detransitioned and chosen a more traditional path, I am now cured.

I still deal with self-loathing.

I'm still sick of being me.

I'm still depressed.

I'm still a miserable, wretched sinner.

The mental ailments that led me to transition still plague me today.

I still fantasize about being a guy at least a few times a week.

I'm often a guy in my dreams.

But now I know that I can't indulge those fantasies.

I have to be the best mother/slash wife I can be.

Jesus Christ is my only hope.

He is your only hope too.

And that makes me sad to read.

To me, it doesn't feel like a gotcha.

It feels like this is someone who is obviously still in the throes of a lot of things.

And why is she being featured in a documentary that's weaponizing her story, which is clearly ongoing?

It's very painful to hear that, to hear that she's like struggling with this self-loathing, with this perspective on herself as

a sinner, as if she's like done something wrong.

When from my perspective, and this is the perspective that I kind of hold towards my own transition, of like I was working with the information that I had, and I was ignorant to what would actually work for me, I guess, but ultimately it turned out okay.

But, like, in her case, it's just like you're using the things that are helping you, and then you're taking them away from yourself.

But for what?

Wouldn't if you do believe, like, wouldn't your God want you to be happy?

Also, for context, like, the Netherlands is like, what, 44% atheist?

So a lot of like the religious stuff really doesn't land for me.

Right.

It's fine.

This isn't like a theology podcast.

Yeah.

One thing that strikes me as interesting is that like the detransitioners that they feature, they don't seem markedly happier in their detransition because that's one thing that at least I've experienced and I've at least observed in detrans people who I know, like their lives is that post detransition or like post-transition, whatever you want to call it, they're a lot happier because they've like like come to know themselves better.

They feel more aligned with themselves.

And I'm not seeing that in these stories that are presented by the right wing.

If detransition is such a good path, wouldn't you want to show happy detrans people who have evolved in their identity and come to feel at one with themselves?

She also, another tweet from November 2nd of this year, she wrote, so this is right after the documentary came out.

For the record, the Breger U documentary focuses mainly on the transgender medicalization of minors.

I didn't say this in the future, but I do not think there is a single person, whether they're eight years old or 80, who should medically transition.

And then in an attached tweet, dot dot dot, also everyone should become Catholic.

Daisy,

I'm sending Daisy love.

I really, really am.

And in the same way that I send Chloe Cole love with the pain that she obviously continues to grapple with, I struggle in doing that because they are weaponizing their grief, their pain, all of those things which are extremely real and which I have no interest in legislating, to take rights away from other people.

Dot, dot, dot.

Also, everyone should become Catholic.

Mass conversions and baptisms now, please.

Okay, so

I want to play you a little clip from the documentary.

It's a short one.

I promise I won't subject you to more of this than than any of us want to be subjected to.

I'll watch the full thing after, so it's completely fine.

You know,

just to get an idea of what's going on, I guess.

Okay, here's a video clip.

Part of the problem is that the current cohort of teenagers that are being transitioned under the affirmative protocol, which lacks guardrails, which takes kids at their word when they say I'm trans, which doesn't do proper mental health assessments, in fact, double mastectomies on teenage girls went up 13-fold between 2013 and 2020.

Between 2016 and 2019 alone, these procedures went up by 500%.

So that was Lior Sapir from the Manhattan Institute, which is a conservative think tank.

They use this study and they're like, the amount of kids getting gender-affirming care is skyrocketing.

It went up 500% year over year.

They don't actually tell you the amount.

of kids.

They tell you the percent increase, which I think is a really important distinction because if one kid

in

the world gets a double mastectomy one year, and then the next year, five kids get a double mastectomy, that is a 500% increase.

And one of the telltale signs to me of a moral panic is floating around really kind of these like inflammatory fear-mongering numbers that inspire a fear that numbers that more accurately describe a situation don't.

So, according to an October 2022 report from Reuters, 282 adolescents from age 13 to 17 received a gender-affirming mastectomy in 2021.

282 kids in the whole country of the United States.

This is not a big number.

And in the study that they were referencing, so they had the citation for the study they were talking about that talked about it increased 500%.

I went to that study and I read that study.

So that study, over the course of seven years from 2013 to 2020, followed 209 people who received double mastectomies for gender-affirming reasons, and they were all checked in on after with you know a year after their procedure and then you know the years beyond that.

How many of the 209 do you, Lucy, think regretted it or expressed regret?

What was the number again?

209?

Yeah.

Maybe

like six or so?

Two.

Two.

Wow.

Two.

I overestimated.

Two.

Two.

And so, like, even the study that you're using to stoke fear doesn't actually stoke fear.

Two people.

That is less than 1% of people expressed regret and neither of them pursued any sort of reversal.

Interesting.

So

I don't know.

It just, you probe any of this stuff and it's just fear-mongering.

Okay, so when I say that I'm D-trans, a lot of people assume that I just like literally walked into a doctor's office like on the internet because they don't know how like trans healthcare in the Netherlands works.

They assume that it went so quickly for me, but like I went through a very rigorous like diagnostic period before I was even allowed to start any kind of hormonal care, let alone access any like surgeries and stuff.

I had to do a psyche evalve before I had surgery, every surgery that I did.

And

it's interesting because like even when you put these barriers in place, you do not stop the appearance of detrans people.

It is a statistical inevitability that if you have a system in place that allows people to transition, there will be people who detransition.

It is just a numbers game.

So yeah, no, it pisses me off when people say like, oh, you just have to make it like harder to access care.

No.

No, because what?

I identified as trans for 14 years before I detransitioned.

Come on.

Like they're always going to be there.

I mean, you, you, I think that's so important because it's like, they really do make it this thing where it's like, we need to make them jump through an extra hoop and then there will be no detransitioners.

But what it really is, though, what is the only way to make sure there are zero detransitioners is to make sure that there are zero people who ever transition, which is ultimately what these people want.

Oh, yeah.

Absolutely.

It's not about a genuine love and care for people who detransition.

It is because they want to, you know, indulge in their queerphobia and just take away rights from everybody because it's ultimately, ultimately, about control of female bodies.

Because you don't hear them crying out or parading around, um, well, besides Holly London, but does he really count?

No,

they don't really present M to F to M detrans people, and I know a few, and they're not transphobic.

It is ultimately about the loss of fertile wombs that we could use to continue the existence of preferably the white Christian race.

Can I say that?

Yeah,

of course.

Yeah,

because that's basically what it is.

It's not for anyone's joy, because if that were the case, then we would see happy detransitioners, but we don't.

There is this big politicized culture warrior narrative that all detransitioners are Chloe Cole, that they're all Ollie London, that they're all Daisy Strongin, who are these people who have like committed their life's work to making sure that nobody can ever D-transition again like them, which means that nobody will ever transition.

What is your experience like in community with other D-trans people?

Like, are they all transphobic?

I'm sure there's no consensus, but what's your experience?

Here's the thing.

I have yet to actually speak to another D-trans individual who wants to ban all trans healthcare.

I know some people who have differing thoughts about how trans healthcare should look, like what kind of hurdles are supposed to be in place and blah, blah, blah.

Like there's diversity there, but I don't know anyone personally who's trying to ban all trans health care and that's here's the thing i would love to have a conversation with chloe cole with um literally maybe not ollie london but like daisy strongen

maybe not ollie london can meet me in the pit um

I don't know any D-trans people who are trying to ban, who want to ban trans healthcare.

All we see is like this just individually did not work out for us.

But that doesn't mean that it's a net negative to society to allow people to transition full stop.

Yeah.

And before we close out, Lucy, what do you want anyone listening who this might be a new conversation for or who might have kind of bought into the right-wing panic about detransitioners?

Like, what do you want them to know from your experience?

What do you want them to take away?

There's something that I say quite often now.

I started saying it when I detransitioned because I was like pondering what it meant for me.

And I say, there is joy in reinvention.

And what I mean by that is that I experienced detrans joy.

I have experienced a happiness that I never thought was possible before through the rediscovering of my own identity.

And what I want to impress on people is that gender joy can thrive at any stage, whether that's trans joy or detrans joy.

Basically, don't ban trans healthcare.

We need it.

We need it.

And I ultimately, we all suffer under queerphobic oppression.

My God, like I just want to also point out to people like, yeah,

even though I've detransitioned, I'm not always perceived as a cis woman in society.

I still suffer under transphobia.

And all these right-wingers who are so vehemently against trans people, they're not going to check what's in my pants before they hate crime me, to put it bluntly.

And the thing is, there are also cis people who suffer under transphobia.

Yeah.

So it's not conducive to anyone to continue with all this hate.

It makes no sense.

Anyway, love wins, always.

Love wins.

Love does win.

Lucy, thank you so much for being here today.

And not just for being here, but for you know, being out in the world with your story,

providing what I think is a really necessary counter to this idea that all detransitioners are transphobic and want the end of trans healthcare to be available to anyone.

I think you're doing such important work.

Where can people find more of you?

Where can people support your work?

Well, I have a TikTok where I post a lot of videos about my D-Trance experience.

Also, just like daily life things.

I'm also on Twitter, as long as that still exists by the time that this podcast is up.

And I'm also on Instagram, all at the same handle.

I'm assuming that Matt will have all of my links in the description.

Yes, of course.

So, yes.

Yeah, well, thank you for being here, Lucy.

And thank you.

Well, that's our show for today.

If you made it this far, I am truly so, so appreciative.

I hope you learned something.

I hope maybe you laughed.

I hope you, you know.

were provided with some solid arguments for when your mom or your uncle over the holidays is like, you know, a lot of people are detransitioning.

We really have to start worrying about this.

We really should start banning that.

I hope that I gave you something that you can retort with thoughtfully.

And I love you.

If you like the show, feel free to give us a rating.

And if not, then, you know, keep it moving.

Don't give us a rating.

I love you.

And until next time, stay fruity.