Defying the Courts: Trump's Legal Battles and Our Fight for Justice

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Welcome to Assembly Required.

I am your host, Stacey Abrams.

Before we begin, I want to talk about the state of affairs in the United States.

In the past few weeks, we've heard lots of poli-side terms to define where we are or to warn about what's happening to to America.

We've heard oligarchy, autocracy, constitutional crisis, pseudo-monarchy.

But the most apt description of what has happened over the past few weeks is tyranny.

The unrestrained exercise of power or authority.

And the United States is subject right now to acts of tyranny.

And let's keep in mind that the U.S.

is the world's oldest continuous democratic nation.

Not the second, not the third.

We are the oldest.

And despite the behavior coming out of Washington, D.C.,

most of us remember that America was born of a rejection of the arbitrary rule of its monarchical leadership, also known as tyranny.

One of the ways that our founding fathers and mothers organized themselves to create this grand experiment and governance was by writing and reading about it.

They didn't simply stew about what was happening.

They wanted to understand it.

They wanted to share it and they wanted to plan what could happen next.

So I'm going to invite you to join me in

having a conversation about where we are, how we got here, and most importantly, how we navigate out of it by joining me in a recommended read from Assembly Required.

This first of its kind recommended read is going to be On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder.

This book is a short one, but it is very packed full of history and examples, and I think hope.

I think it will help us understand, confront, and resist the seemingly inexorable rise of abuse of power in our nation.

Over the next few weeks, I'm going to highlight some of its key lessons, but I'm hoping that as I do so, you're reading along with me, that we're doing this exercise of engagement together.

And I hope that you will get as much from this book as I did.

It's, again, a fairly quick read, but it is worth every word.

The reason I want to talk about tyranny is that one of the markers of tyranny is the fracturing of the rule of law.

At the federal level, we have three branches of government.

legislative, Congress, executive, the presidency, and the judicial, the courts.

And they are meant to serve as a check on one another.

That's how our system has lasted for so long.

But Donald Trump is acting like the presidency means that he and he alone has power over the entire federal government.

So we've seen a collapse of the intention of the presidency acting in its best interest of the people.

And so far, Republicans who control Congress, that second branch, they have been not only willing to bend to Trump's intentional abuse of power, they have essentially given up their own power.

The list grows every day.

They've abandoned the power to control government spending, the power of oversight, the power to create and dismantle agencies, the power to make laws, whether or not we should have a Department of Education or whether a president should be able to invalidate birthright citizenship.

Congress Congress is supposed to make these decisions, and they have been unbelievably and unforgivably silent.

And that leaves the courts, that third branch of government, as our last check on the abuse of power, on the rise of tyranny.

It is up to the courts too often these days to make sure that government is following the law and actually serving the will of the people.

Yet right now, the Trump administration has been testing the courts and waging war on their power to constrain him.

But let's be clear, this is not an accident.

It is part of the playbook of autocrats and tyrants.

Trump's moves have sparked more than 100 federal lawsuits, and judges have issued a series of nationwide injunctions to block his policies, such as his illegal executive orders to dismantle DEI, his unlawful restriction on birthright citizenship, his move to ban transgender people from serving in the military.

And the latest salvo happened on March 15th when Trump invoked the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, a wartime law used only three times in history, always during major conflicts, and he invoked it as a pretext to deport about 250 Venezuelan immigrants with little to no due process.

A federal judge ordered the administration to stop and immediately turn around any planes in the air because he didn't just deport them.

He put them on a plane and sent them to El Salvador, where the United States has agreed to pay for their incarceration.

A judge said stop and the Trump administration ignored it.

When Judge James Boesberg demanded answers about why his judicial orders were not followed, the El Salvadoran president being paid by our nation to incarcerate immigrants without due process, tweeted, oopsie, too late, with a laughing emoji to taunt the judge.

And he, in turn, was retweeted by our Secretary of State, Marco Rubio.

Trump then posted that this duly appointed federal judge should be impeached for acting as a check on executive branch authority.

Hours later, though, Chief Justice of the U.S.

Supreme Court, John Roberts, issued a rare statement rebuking the idea of removing a judge from his post because of a disagreement about an unfavorable ruling.

Quote, the normal appellate review process exists for that purpose, Robert said.

This case doesn't exist in a vacuum.

This rise of tyranny and this fracturing of the rule of law is not an accident.

It is part of a pattern of undermining and testing the limits of the law and the legal system.

And it is not new.

We can find examples like this in the histories of former democracies that failed, many in the past 50 years.

Just this weekend, Trump issued a memorandum that targets law firms that defend causes he opposes and threatens the legal profession of those who dare to protect due process and the people of this country.

One of those firms, Paul Weiss, capitulated.

They gave in.

And more, unfortunately, are likely to follow if we don't speak up.

But why does it matter if law firms cave in to save their businesses or if judges have their rulings ignored?

How is our democracy tied to the rule of law at every level of government, starting with the federal government, but not ending there?

These are the issues we're going to dig into today.

We're going to take a hard look at our legal system and break down Trump's biggest legal cases with Sky Perryman, the president and CEO of Democracy Forward, one of the organizations suing this administration over its use of the Alien Enemies Act.

And then we'll talk to Mandela Barnes of Power to the Polls about the upcoming Wisconsin Supreme Court race, a contest that could be the most crucial election of 2025.

So let's get into it.

Sky Perryman, welcome to Assembly Required.

It's great to be here with you.

Thank you for taking the time.

So I want to start with a level setting question.

And this really, I think, speaks to the moment we're in with the abuse of power, and we'll have many more examples, but also with the response.

And I'm going to draw a contrast.

Can you talk a little bit about why it matters that Paul Weiss, one of the nation's top law firms, basically apologized to Trump for having done pro bono work against the January 6th rioters and for defending people in the past and now has pledged $40 million in free legal services for causes that Trump demands they support.

The first piece of this is like, let's not bury the lead, right?

Which is that this is the president and an administration that has no interest in working within our legal process.

And so they are trying to intimidate lawyers.

They are trying to intimidate law firms.

They're trying to intimidate judges.

That is what is happening.

And this is a time for courage.

And we're seeing a lot of institutions meet that moment straight on.

And we are seeing other institutions that are weighing a range of considerations and aren't really showing up.

And so, you know, at Democracy Forward, we have been watching this.

We are encouraging all lawyers, just as the American Bar Association has encouraged all lawyers, every single one of us that swears an oath to the Constitution and that is required in this time to uphold the rule of law to do that.

And I think that you're seeing that these intimidation tactics, this is a tactic of the administration to try to divide people, to try to ruin solidarity.

And we do see that it was a step backwards for that solidarity.

Why does it matter that you are antithetical to what we just saw?

Democracy Forward, it's in the name.

But can you talk a little bit about your organization, what you do, and why your strategy right now is to stand up for democracy?

Right.

Well, we believe fundamentally the fight for democracy is the fight for people.

So we're about the American people.

And right now, in this moment, the courts are really important to the American people because we have an administration that does not want to be held accountable.

They lied on the campaign trail, said they weren't going to operate by a Project 2025 playbook.

Now they're accelerating that playbook and then some.

And the place you go to hold your administration accountable and to hold the president accountable in this country right now is the courts.

And so at Democracy Forward, we are just proud and honored to to be on the front lines every day.

And we believe that there's no better work in this time and that there's certainly no better calling as lawyers in this time.

Well, we know this administration has had a very broad-based, bigoted, and vicious approach to governing.

And part of that has been overwhelm citizens.

It's be, you know, asinine and pejorative to the media.

And it's to fracture how our country ostensibly operates.

I mean, there is no shortage of issues to tackle.

So you've taken on an array of cases.

I mean, they've given you a lot to work with in the last, you know, 40 days.

Can you talk about and walk us through how you decide what cases to pursue and what you don't take on?

What we've tried to do in this administration is to take the administration at their word.

This is a president that said he was going to try to be a dictator on day one.

He said that.

And it is a administration that has bragged about wanting to govern by a shock and awe approach.

I don't know who really says that about, you know, people that they're supposed to be representing and caring for.

That's the act of governing is caring for people.

That's not how this administration is operating.

And so we have really decided that the American people are not without an advocate in this, and that when this administration operates unlawfully and harms people, we are going to be there.

We want to meet their shock and awe with the American people's voices.

And so you see us work across a range of issues, but we're predominantly really focused on how we can make sure that individuals that are going about their daily lives, right, sending their kids to school, going to work and filling out.

you know, work paperwork that, by the way, is housed at the government.

So that means that we go in a lot of different directions.

We're in court on behalf of the Baptists and the Quakers and the Sikhs because they want ICE, wants to come into houses of worship.

I mean, that is not, that's not American.

We're in court on behalf of people who are being removed from our country without any process at all, because that's a threat to all of us.

And then we're in court to protect people's privacy, to protect public education, inclusion, accessibility, all of those things.

Well, I want to dive into those cases with you.

But before we do that, I want to ask you about some breaking news that we learned about today, Monday, March 24th, when we're recording.

Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, used his signal thread to share war plans and accidentally included the editor of The Atlantic.

Is that something that you would take on?

And if even if you're not going to, can you

talk to us a little bit about what the legal implications are for what was just done?

So let me just say that I just came from court earlier today where you have the United States government standing up into court saying they can remove people from this country without any process whatsoever.

And by the way, in the district court have tried to make claims that they may not be able to tell the judge certain things, even in a classified setting, because it is so

important for our national security.

And yet they're tweeting about that operation.

I mean, you see that all over.

And then now we have a cabinet secretary in charge of the Department of Defense on his signal chat.

signaling war plans.

So first of all, let me just say that is not normal.

It violates a range of laws and is a threat to our national security.

And we are looking at what legal options are available to protect our national security.

We actually care about national security here at Democracy Forward.

But secondly, when you have people at the highest levels of the government that are signaling war plans.

I mean,

this is not an administration that is operating at all to further the safety of Americans at home or abroad.

And they just want to use that label when it's politically popular for them to use that label to sort of

advance an agenda.

So we're concerned about it on a whole host of things.

We are looking at it.

You can't use Signal under the Presidential Records Act.

There's a range of other laws that we believe are likely violated here.

And so you will see us looking and seeing how we can protect our national security.

Well, Skye, you and your team at Democracy Forward have been a beacon of light for so many who are looking for just small victories.

And these haven't been small.

So I want to talk about a few of them.

You know, you got to stay on Trump's order to freeze federal funding via that midnight OMB order.

You blocked the administration from entering, as you mentioned, houses of worship indiscriminately to conduct immigration enforcement.

You were embedded deeply in the conversation about the deportations.

These have been good.

Tell us why these lower court rulings matter.

We know that they're going to have to go through appeals court and to the Supreme Court, but let's talk about why these victories at the district level matter.

Well, first of all, they matter because they improve.

Of course, with us, it's always going to be about people.

So they improve the lives of people.

So that funding freeze, which they want to call it a spending freeze, because I think they feel like that is somehow politically viable.

What it was was an essential services freeze.

And people were going to wake up the next day not knowing if they could operate meals on wheels, not knowing if the head start centers were going to be open, not knowing if their small businesses were going to get the credits they needed to get.

And it would have devastating impacts for everybody, people in red states, blue states, purple states, big cities, small towns.

And we were able to go into court on behalf of people and stop that across the nation.

Last week, we were able to go into court and stop Elon Musk and Doge from accessing your personal data at the Social Security Administration.

So these things have a real impact on people's lives.

But the reason that they're also important is that it shows people, I think, and it demonstrates the tools that we all have as Americans.

We don't live in a country where there's a king.

He may want to be a king, but we all have our rights.

And the place you go to enforce those rights when the government is violating them or when others are violating them is to court.

And so we are really pleased that in this moment, while it is a very scary moment and it's hard for so many of us and so many people across the country, people are able to make their voices heard and to defend their rights.

And it's working, which is why, of course, the president is engaged in an effort to intimidate lawyers, to intimidate judges, and to try to really stop the American people from defending their rights in court.

So I want to stay with this for a second.

You have won favorable rulings, as we've just discussed, but you've also lost at the district court level.

And for those who think that those losses mean that you shouldn't have tried or that it signals some grand defeat, can you describe how you determine the circumstances where legal action is the best strategy?

And I want to contextualize it in this moment because I think for so many of us, we harken back to the days of Brown v.

Board of Education of legal cases that transform society.

And I think part of the reality we live in now is that it's not necessarily about our rights being asserted and protected in these and and progressed.

It's about protection.

And so can you talk a little bit about why even not winning is an okay thing?

Sure.

Well, let me start by saying

we do win a lot in court.

And then there are times where we face setbacks.

And the setbacks that we have faced so far, we've not been in a situation where a single federal judge, because I think this is important for people to understand, there hasn't been a single federal judge in any of our cases that has looked at what the Trump administration has done and said, like, I think that, you know, this is 100% lawful.

But there are judges that are going going to say, well, we're not going to block this today or we need to hear more or maybe it is lawful.

And so those are setbacks.

And then, of course, in a lot of the work we do in states, like where you are, Stacey, I mean, some of the places we go,

we file cases and sometimes they don't ultimately prevail.

But here's the reason all of this is so important.

First of all, I'm glad you mentioned Brown v.

Board, where Brown v.

Board didn't just come as a perfect case out of the sky.

And, you know, Thurgood Marshall, you know, ascended on the Supreme Court, and everybody, you know, we all just, you know, became more equal.

That's not how that case happened, right?

It happened as a result of a series of lawyers, some of whom history remembers, others of whom we all are grateful for, but we may not even know their names.

They were in court pushing our society to do better and pushing our courts to recognize the rights that we all have as people, even if those rights were rights that courts weren't always so quick to recognize.

And so we see our work in a lot of the same way.

Sometimes these setbacks tell us, you know, what you really need to be going to do is you need to go talk to Congress or you need to go talk to this, you know, they really can help with those pieces.

And they're building a record for the future so that we can all move forward together.

And so I'm so glad you mentioned that.

And I think that we try to talk with our lawyers here a lot about, about, you know, how many cases did it take to get to those momentous moments.

And that's what we want to be doing on behalf of people.

And we also just want to be bringing cases that protect the rights of people day in and day out.

I don't know that the Social Security data case is some case that's necessarily going to be in the history books.

But what I do know is that hundreds of millions of Americans were going to have their data taken.

by Elon Musk and Doge, and that's not going to happen anymore right now.

And

that is victory enough for us.

Absolutely.

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can you talk a little bit now about the alien enemies act case that democracy forward and the aclu are currently pursuing so the alien enemies act is an act from the 1700s uh that has only been invoked three times in the nation's history it was invoked in the war of 1812 in world war one and in world war ii and um it allows for the president to remove people from the country in times of war or invasion.

And the law is very clear.

It says declared war, and the act has only ever been invoked in the midst of a declared war.

And the president has sought to, and this is really something that a lot of the far-right groups were talking about for some time.

They want to try to resurrect this Alien Enemies Act and invoke it in a time of peace, which is what we're in now, and use it to summarily remove people from the country, which is what the president tried to do in a shroud of secrecy about two weeks ago now.

So, we challenged with the ACLU on behalf of five clients and then on behalf of a whole class.

We've challenged the invocation of that act, which we believe has been unlawfully enacted.

And it's a really concerning situation because the administration is actually

maintaining.

And I just heard this in court today where they said it again.

They are maintaining that they can remove people from this country without any process at all.

That's actually not even what the act says, but we don't even think the act should apply.

And

so there's a lot at stake here in this case.

And I'm sure you're going to ask me about what's happened because there's been a lot of reporting about the judge's orders, but we have been able to secure orders from the district court that pause the the government's swift action here while the courts consider this, because this is just such an unprecedented use of this power.

So you mentioned earlier, and I think it's an important piece to dive in on, that even if you

support the notion of mass deportations, and we know that prior to the activation of this process, people said they, some people said they believed it, that it was a good idea.

But what you've really pointed out is that there is the

there's the invocation of

an 18th century law that does not do what he claims it does.

But then there's the lack of due process.

And I want to talk about the ways this lack of due process is playing out, especially around immigration.

You've got the soccer player who had a tattoo that was fan art for his favorite soccer team who got deported, although he was seeking asylum formally.

You have the detention of Mahmoud Khalil, the Columbia student, who protested the war in Gaza.

You have the deportation of a Lebanese doctor from Brown University because of something they think they saw on her phone.

What do these cases and this larger construct, what does it say about free speech and due process for the rest of us who think, well, I'm not an immigrant.

This doesn't apply to me.

Can you talk a little bit about why we should all be worried, why we should all be paying attention?

We should be.

I mean, one, let me just say, we have had a situation in our case and we're watching the other cases where even in the case where a judge says well hold on let's wait a second and let's get some facts and and um i'm gonna order that the planes be turned around that have been filled with people that have had no process We have a situation where the government appears to have ignored that.

And we are working in court right now to get to the bottom of it, as is the district court judge.

That should concern everybody, right?

Because in this country, if we go into court and you get an order from a judge and you have the government

thinking that it's optional about whether they follow that,

that is something that should concern all of us.

And that concerns the judge in our case.

And we're waiting and sort of seeing, we're gathering the facts.

We don't want to jump to any conclusions.

And we'll come back and talk to it to you about that after

it's fully done.

But that is something we should all be watching for because you see these things, the government taking to social media, saying, like intimidating judges, saying that they should be impeached because they don't agree with their decision.

You appeal the decision.

You don't ignore the decision.

You don't intimidate people, number one.

But then there's what they're doing on the substance, which is this notion that the president has, he believes he has some ability to remove people from the country without the process that Congress has provided.

And we know the president has a lot of power.

And the executive branch has a lot of power to conduct deportation operations, to conduct immigration enforcement operations.

But what they're doing now is trying to sidestep that process in order to deprive people of process altogether.

So how that's playing out in our case is that there are people right now that we believe are in an El Salvadoran prison who have been summarily removed from the country on the basis that the government is claiming that they're in a Venezuelan gang.

And they

aren't.

I mean, their family members are reaching out saying, we don't, there's there's no basis for this.

And they got removed without

any process whatsoever.

Who is to stop someone from thinking that you or that me or that one of our loved ones is in one of these organized gangs or in something that they label as a threat to national security and remove you summarily?

And so that's actually playing out in the courts.

I was there earlier today, and it should concern all of us in this country.

And it's a completely unlawful use of this power.

We don't even believe that the war power should apply, but even under the law itself, this country, and a judge pointed this out today, this country gave Germans who were accused of being Nazis in the middle of a declared World War II more process.

than what this president is seeking to do now.

And so that's a five-alarm fire for all of us.

The other part of this, and you spoke to it a bit, is that it's about the power of judges.

And another

thread that they're trying to pull that will unravel the rule of law is the power of judges to do nationwide injunctions instead of having to find someone in every single jurisdiction to bring the same suit and the same case and whether or not

this should be permitted.

And we know they've appealed that issue to the Supreme Court as well.

Can you talk a little bit about nationwide injunctions and what's the danger of the Supreme Court deciding that district court judges can no longer have blanket application of their injunctions?

Yeah, let me just start by like, let's remember some collective history, which is that the same groups that are now trying to say and trying to constrain the power of the district courts

and also even claiming, the president sort of claiming in these memoranda that lawyers shouldn't be making these arguments for injunctions, you know, really had no problem with these types of injunctions in the Biden administration.

So I just want to be like, I just do need to, they say we got to say that.

Okay.

And including, by the way, in a case where the Supreme Court, once it got there, 920

said that the case never even belonged in the courts.

It's a case on medication abortion.

There was no outrage by the president's allies in that instance about these injunctions.

So I just want to make sure we're all kind of speaking from the same.

Wait, are you suggesting that there's hypocrisy embedded in the Trump administration?

And there, I'm, I'm just, I'm

shocking, I know.

I'm shocked.

Okay, please continue.

Here's more broadly.

Look, courts are, courts have a great responsibility.

And no one thinks that a court should issue any type of order that is beyond the type of order that is required to defend people's rights and to protect the interest uh that that's before the court i mean that is that that happens all the time but but but there is also the courts have a power and our laws recognize the court's power to enjoin something as it applies to everyone when it is blatantly unlawful and when of course people could not avail themselves of the judicial process all across the country again going back to hypocrisy these are the people remember these are supposed to be the efficiency people but i'll just say so something let's take birthright citizenship where the state AGs and the ACLU and a number of groups sued on that early.

That is a blatant violation of every American's constitutional rights.

You don't have to bring that case on behalf of every single person that is affected in order to have a nationwide order.

That is the same thing in some of the cases that we've brought where the law has just been violated and there is broad harm.

And the way the court can address the broad harm from from the plaintiffs in the case is to issue nationwide relief.

We've had other cases where the courts have not issued nationwide relief and they have decided that based on what they're seeing before them, it's important to issue the relief as to the parties affected that are in the case,

but that those parties don't necessarily represent something that requires nationwide.

So this is really the real piece here is this is the Trump administration again, when they don't like like the rules, trying to change the rules because they can't exist right now in a law and order environment under the rule of law because they're violating the law at so many turns.

So what can we do as citizens who sit outside the legal system?

How can we stand up for the rule of law?

And why does it matter?

I think there's so much.

This is like my favorite question.

So

because I'll just say it's not the lawyers, right?

It's our brave clients that are going and they're using the legal process, but it's our brave clients that are saying we deserve better, our communities deserve better, and we're going to enforce our rights.

So first of all, for people that are listening, if you are affected by these policies and you're sitting around in your community and all of a sudden, you know, your public school isn't getting the funding that it needs for disability programs or for other types of programs, let's get get in touch.

Come to democracyforward.org.

Let us know what's going on.

Don't discount your ability to maybe be part of the legal work.

But even beyond that, I think this is such a time for people because

one,

we need people that are vigilant right now about where they're getting their information and about what is happening.

And that's why I love your show.

I listen to this all the time.

But we need people to be vigilant, right?

Make a plan, just like you make a plan to vote, make a plan about how you're getting information.

That doesn't mean you have to go doom scroll every day.

You can set some boundaries, but let's make a plan about what information we're availing ourselves of.

Reaching out to your local elected officials, including people in Congress,

really does matter.

I mean, town halls are now getting shut down because certain of the president's allies are tired of hearing from people.

That is not going to bode well for these people or their agenda longer term.

And so we do want to make sure as much as it, you know, may seem that it's just like a voice in the wilderness, it is not.

And we do want to make sure that collective action, I'm a big fan of the collective action.

There's going to be a lot of opportunities.

We're going to have some opportunities very soon about how people can stand up against the president's attacks on lawyers, like get involved in there, add your name, your voice matters.

And then, you know, finally, I would say

find some community because what these people want to do, and this is where you started this interview, but what these, what the Trump administration wants to do and what extremists want to do is they want to make you feel very alone, even if you're in a community with a lot of people.

And they want to kind of pick you off and they want to say, well, look at what these people did.

They want to make an example out of this group.

They want to make us feel alone.

They want to make us feel scared.

And so right now, spending time together and developing some community with each other is actually not just something that we need to do for our own mental well-being.

It is actually something that we need to do for our entire country.

And so I'm like, you know, go find some community.

That is truly something we can all do.

Courage is contagious.

And when we're together, we're going to be able to find that strength.

And so that's that, those are kind of some of my things right now.

Sky Perryman, head of Democracy Forward and Gladiator, on behalf of all of us, thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks for having me.

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One of the intentions of Project 2025 is to devolve power to the states where Republicans control more than half of state legislatures and or governorships, or they have split power with a little bit of a tilt towards them.

And this intention has been a very long-term goal because most of the federal laws that they are attacking are designed to prohibit discrimination, which can then proliferate if there's no one stopping them.

Beginning with discrimination in how elections are handled, because as our students of voter suppression know, states basically control the mechanisms of democracy, particularly given the erosion of the Voting Rights Act.

But who leads our state's three branches of government will impact many other issues in the coming years.

With that in mind, I want to turn to one of the most crucial elections of 2025, the Wisconsin Supreme Court race.

The winner of that race will hold the swing vote in future 4-3 decisions, shaping the state's legal landscape for years to come.

Our next guest is working to mobilize voters through his organization, Power to the Polls, to turn out for the Democrats.

Former Former Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes, welcome to the show.

Hey, thank you so much.

Really glad to be able to have a conversation with you once again.

Well, I appreciate you being here.

As you know, we're just a few days away from one of the most consequential elections of 2025.

Technically, it happens what date?

April 1st.

There you go.

Right around the corner.

And this is a battle for an open seat on the Wisconsin Supreme Court.

Judge Susan Crawford is facing off against Brad Schmill, Schimel,

a far-right politician who is bankrolled by none other than Elon Musk and other deep-pocketed conservative special interest groups.

Mandela, can you walk us through what's at stake in this race?

So everything is at stake with this race.

Two years ago, we took the majority in the state Supreme Court for the first time.

Some people say 15 years, but it's sort of hard to determine actually where things were.

15 years ago, our politics were completely different.

We weren't dealing with the level of extremes that we're dealing with now.

Every election wasn't the most consequential end-all-be-all election for the Supreme Court as these races are turning out to be.

And there are two things at stake.

One is the future of the country.

Two, specifically and very selfishly, the state of Wisconsin.

I say the future of this country because Elon Musk put in a quarter billion dollars into the presidential race.

And you see the level of influence that he has on our institutions and, effectively, on the way of life for so many people in this country.

An unelected oligarch who has been able to step in and wreak havoc.

And so at this point, I want to say he's up to about $13 to $15 million being spent in this state Supreme Court race, which is a wild amount of money.

This already surpassed

any level of spending historically for a Wisconsin Supreme Court race.

And two years ago, we blew past the record.

And now that record is way in the rear view.

Now, with that being said, Elon Musk does have a case in front of the Supreme Court with Tesla.

That is one thing.

And for anybody to suggest or think that, oh, maybe he'll sit this one out.

It won't be corrupt in this instance.

Well, you know, let's just give it a try is completely fooling themselves.

And for Wisconsin to continue to have impartial courts, and when I say the majority, you know, I've said it before, and I will say it again.

There is a fallacy of nonpartisan courts, especially in this day and age.

But in order to do the right things that people are looking for, the nonpartisan things like fair maps and even woman's right to choose, which is overwhelmingly supported by people regardless of party, it is going to take a court that understands fairness is not going to lead with a partisan lens.

Unfortunately, we have seen so many instances over the course of time, during my time in the state legislature, during my time as lieutenant governor, where the court made the political calculation instead of the calculation that was best for the people of Wisconsin.

We just got fairer maps and now for the first time the legislature is more reflective of the state of Wisconsin and we can lose all of that progress.

When I say we, I don't mean Democrats.

I don't even mean progressives.

I mean people here in the state of Wisconsin who just want some fairness and want things to work.

So you and I met when you were in the state legislature, as was I, and then we worked together when you were lieutenant governor.

And I think it's important for us to contextualize why in a moment where all of the attention is focused on the national

concerns,

why it is so critical that we not ignore what is happening at the state level.

So, one thing you mentioned was that Elon Musk is investing heavily in the Supreme Court race because he's got a case in front of the Wisconsin Supreme Court.

We know he also has a case in front of the Delaware Supreme Court.

We are watching this intentional infusion of

capital into not just the

attempt to change the outcome, but a very direct and naked attempt to influence the rule of law.

Can you talk a bit from the position of having been a lawmaker and then someone responsible for enforcing the laws on the administrative side, the executive side, and now someone who is working to support to protect the courts.

Can you talk just a little bit about why the states are such an important barometer of what's happening in this country?

Oh, for sure.

You even touched on it in the the beginning when you talked about Project 25 and delegating so much, so many of the tasks to the states, be it state legislatures or the governors.

Now,

if it can happen in Wisconsin, it can happen anywhere.

And it has absolutely been evidenced that, you know, the things that happen here in Wisconsin tend to have a ripple effect nationwide.

We've been really good at a lot of amazing things in this state.

I always remind people about us being the first state to ratify the 19th Amendment.

Wisconsin was the first state to declare the Fugitive Slave Act unconstitutional.

Wisconsin was the first state to have anti-discrimination laws based on sexual orientation or ability on the books.

We've done incredibly bold things, but we've also outsourced a lot of our bad policies.

And I truly believe that, you know, if we didn't have to experience Scott Walker for eight years in Wisconsin, Donald Trump wouldn't have been president.

Scott Walker showed up with an audacity like no other, showed up as a person who is completely focused on himself.

Can you explain who Scott Walker is?

I am so sorry.

And

I'm glad people have likely forgotten who he is.

Scott Walker is the former governor of Wisconsin, got elected in 2010.

As soon as he got into office, the first steps that he took were to dismantle public sector unions by taking away collective bargaining rights and also made the most significant, substantial cut to public education in the nation's history up until that point.

And also subscribe to the politics of division.

And that is is what gave wind to the sales of people like Donald Trump.

And if we continue down this path where the most wealthy person in the entire world is able to continue to buy elections, we are going to be in trouble.

And we're all going to be in a position that we don't want to be in, where we have to subscribe to the politics of this one man as a country because we see what is happening to people who want to stand up.

And that's something I believe in more than anything else, as I know you you do as well my organization power to the polls we're out mobilizing people especially uh the folks who are not likely to show up in a spring election right after a presidential the people uh who aren't getting all the information the people who haven't been in constant communication with campaigns or political parties and we're equipping them with the information i can tell you uh for folks who weren't necessarily even aware that there was a Supreme Court race coming up, when we mentioned the influence of Elon Musk and Donald Trump, minds changed.

People's ears perked up.

They started to listen and they were ready or have become ready to make a plan to vote and to get other people to vote as well.

So as someone who's on the ground talking to voters, we know that the specter of Elon Musk, the horrific outcomes in just two months of a Trump presidency 2.0 is having a galvanizing effect on voters.

What other issues are driving people to the polls?

What are you hearing on the ground?

Well, for sure, you know, abortion still remains a critical issue.

Wisconsin has an 1849 criminal abortion ban.

And the way that we bring our laws up to current status, which truly reflects the will of the people, is having a court that actually respects the will of the people.

And so I would say, you know, abortion is still a very important issue.

And also the topic, the cause of fair maps.

People want to be truly represented.

And people had not been represented since at least 2011.

And our maps still aren't perfect right now.

They still aren't perfectly fair.

They're just a lot better than they were since 2011.

And it's made an immediate impact on electoral outcomes.

It's also seeming to have some sort of an impact with those folks who now have to think about going to face an electorate that is not going to automatically just show up and vote for them just because of party affiliation.

We've seen people at least have more bipartisan chatter, and that we've always had bipartisan chatter from our side, but now you're hearing it, you're hearing it a little bit more from Republicans.

So, the fair maps, the right to choose, and also the right to collectively bargain.

That is, you know, we can talk about

jobs being created, we could talk about good jobs, but good jobs don't just happen.

Good jobs are here in our communities, regardless of what state you're in, because of the strides that were made by organized labor, whether it's the 40-hour work week, whether it's even establishment of a minimum wage.

We used to have a $7.25 minimum wage in Wisconsin, which is ridiculous.

But the fact is, if there aren't unions to push the needle, if people can't make their opinions heard in the workplace without fear of unfair retaliation, then

The jobs that will get created aren't necessarily going to be good jobs because we'll see employers, we'll see supervisors continue to take advantage of the workforce.

I mean, it still happens right now.

And that's why organized labor, that's why unions are seeing some of the broadest support that they've ever seen historically.

So what are some of the activities?

We have a lot of conversation on this show about what do you do?

So not just what's the problem, why is it a problem, and then how do you solve it?

So Power to the Polls has been doing extraordinary work.

I've had the privilege of working with you over the last few years as a

point point of privilege.

I was actually born in Madison and only lived there for three years, but yeah, I get a little bit of a tie to Wisconsin.

But Power to the Polls has been very influential in mobilizing this broad cross-section of Wisconsinites.

What are you all doing in particular?

And if anyone's listening, what can they do to help mobilize more Wisconsin voters to turn out to the polls?

And thank you so much for highlighting the organization.

And I think that you set a really good example of what base building looks like uh i think that you set an example of what talking to people that other people are not talking to uh should uh how that should be conducted and it has to happen in a real way and we're not just showing up to people's doorsteps 30 to 60 days before an election we engage in year-round on-the-ground constant contact community organizing we're there when there is no ballot even processed because that's when people are willing to listen and it also gives us time to follow up and have thorough engagement it gives us time to answer questions it gives people uh a time to even digest that information when you're showing up uh when an election on the horizon people are already inundated with all sorts of political communications it's hard to discern what's real and what's not when you show up earlier it gives people time to one do their own research but we also give them a way to follow up with us and we do take it upon ourselves to follow up with them.

And so in the lead up to elections, elections, one year plus out, we are showing up in communities.

We're talking to people.

We're also hosting different events

that are, you know, nominally political,

but not always so much because people want to be able to congregate or be in a space where they can speak freely without feel like they're talking to a salesperson, trying to get them to get them to vote for someone.

And on top of the door knocking, which obviously has to happen, we do radio, we do digital and streaming services, we do targeted mail.

And our effort is to just be in touch with people in as many points throughout the day as we possibly can in as many different ways, wherever they're receiving information.

We want power to the polls to be there.

And the most important part of our work is letting people know that the election is just step one.

Going to vote for somebody is the first step.

We also want to help them and be there to to support them in ways when they have grievances that need to be aired or they have an issue that needs to be brought up.

And

knowing that the only way we not just win elections, but also get real results out of government is when people come together.

Awesome.

So you talked about the working class vote and how important that is because of the fragility of labor unions in Wisconsin and how important this court can be to protecting and defending those rights.

We also know that there's been a larger conversation post-election about communities of color, and we have seen an aggressive attack by this administration on black and brown voters, especially, and specifically.

How are you processing this tension that's happening in our public narrative?

You're in the first election since we've been in this broader conversation about who do we talk to?

And I think you've alluded to it, but I want you to be really specific about why it matters that we reach out to and not jettison any one community, that we have to have this broader conversation, but also this targeted mobilization.

For sure.

And, you know, the working class voters is the most

important voting block because these are folks who have been taken advantage of consistently.

People who've been asked for their vote, but haven't necessarily been handed the results that

people should be immediately witnessing and experiencing.

I mean, not immediately, but at least at some point.

And with that being the case, this is why we have seen

a consistent drop off in black voter turnout in Wisconsin, specifically other states across the country as well, since 2012.

And this is because people feel as if there's no party who's looking out for them.

There is no party that is willing to listen.

There's no party that's willing to take the time outside of election cycles.

And people are quite frankly over it because quality of life has declined for so many working class people while at the same time the most wealthy and most powerful in our society have seen wealth and power continue to accumulate and so we talk to folks who don't have regular voting history we talk to those high opportunity voters i tell people we're operating in the hov lane all year long

because

when

People can at least have a conversation and have their questions answered and feel as if there's somebody who is willing to listen or at least be able to guide them or point them in the right direction and show them that government can function, but government can only function well when people are able to show up and talk about the things that matter and be able to be in touch with their representatives and to be able to have an outlet that's not just a social media post about things that are going wrong where you have this direct line for too many people.

Politics just feels so abstract.

It feels as if

the governing bodies and institutions are intangible.

It feels as if there is no way or no mechanism for redress.

And that is something that we work to let them know.

And so the people who don't have the regular voting history, those are the folks that we're going to continue to talk to.

But also sometimes you knock on a door and a person won't even be on the voter file.

And, you know, we talk to them too.

We don't just walk away if the person who we're looking for isn't home.

And we've been able to add tens of thousands of people to the voter roles that are now in in our contact list, that are now in our database, that we keep up regular communication with so that they can go from a person who was not ever going to be communicated with.

Now, these people have an opportunity to become regular voters, frequent voters.

These are not just people who feel like they've been asked to go vote.

They're people who feel like they've been asked to be a part of the process.

And that's the biggest difference.

That is exactly what I wanted to hear.

Mandela, what's your last call to action for our audience?

They will do what they can.

We've got a race coming up on April 1st.

But what do you want them to do now?

And what do you want them to do the day after the race is over?

So I want for sure people to support the work of power to the polls.

The first step is the election.

We had a long runway to the midterm.

And actually, on the way to the midterm, we still have another Supreme Court race in exactly one year from next week.

So, please stay involved, stay engaged with our work.

Don't forget about Wisconsin.

Things are back and forth all the time.

But the harder we work,

the more we have a chance to firmly plant Wisconsin in its rightful place.

And that's a place of progress.

And if our listeners want to learn more about Judge Crawford, where do they go?

They can go to her website, which is Crawford, C-R-A-W-F-O-R-D4WI.com.

Crawford4WI.com.

Excellent.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

As always, on Assembly Required, we like to give our listeners actionable tools for facing the challenges of the day.

I do want to highlight something that Skye mentioned, which is that there are a lot of actionable opportunities coming down the pike.

For many of you, it has felt like you were searching for something to do.

And I am so grateful for your energy and for the patience you've shown.

There have been a lot of groups scrambling to figure out how to meet this moment simply because it is unprecedented in this country and it is scary, but I'm proud that we are coming together, that we are doing things.

And over the next few weeks, we will be keeping you up to date on what's happening and where so that you can get involved.

But here's this week's toolkit.

We want you to, as always, be curious, solve problems, and do good.

So first, get support.

Donald Trump's blatant disregard for the justice system, as Sky pointed out, will have far-reaching consequences, especially for immigrants of all legal statuses.

So if you or someone you know needs support, local organizations across the country are ready to help.

For example, there is Siembra NC, and it works to protect community members from abusive employers, landlords, ICE, and harmful policies.

If you're in North Carolina, you can call their Defensa hotline at 336-543-0353 to report suspected ICE activity in your community or workplace and to report workplace issues like stolen wages.

That's 336-543-0353.

Next, we're going to use our resources.

In this episode, we focused on the power of the law and Donald Trump's vision of America.

We're not going to give him credit for having this country yet.

And that's because we as individuals still have power.

If you want to take action, Crooked's friends at Vote Save America are mobilizing people to show up at Republican town halls and hold them accountable.

Just go to votesaveamerica.com, enter your email and zip code, and the site will connect you with local town halls where you can speak out and make your voice heard.

And I'm going to tag on to that to remember that you cannot just talk to your congressional members, talk to your local elected officials.

Everyone who got elected has a responsibility to uphold the Constitution.

So they have the responsibility to listen to you.

If you can't get to one of these meetings, that doesn't mean you should be silent.

Show up where power is and show them you have power.

And then the final one is AR's recommended read.

As I mentioned at the top of the episode today, we are recommending On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder.

Please pick up a copy from your local bookstore, buy it online from bookshop.org, or borrow it from your local library.

We will begin our mutual study next week.

Remember, you can find the toolkit recommendations online for each topic because we know it's hard to remember everything, especially if you're listening on the go.

On the podcast website, click view episode for all of the details.

And if you're watching on YouTube, just expand the episode description and you will find recommendations to learn more and do more.

And I'm going to ask you to share more.

We are having important conversations with extraordinary guests and I keep talking to folks who wish they knew more.

If you've got someone like that in your life, let them know about this podcast.

Let them know about how you're learning, what you're learning, and let us know what else you want to know.

Because here at Assembly Required, we do our best work together.

That's the point.

That's the passion.

That's the mission.

Okay.

So as a reminder, we can be found wherever you get your podcast, including on YouTube.

And if you want to tell us what you've learned, what you've solved, or what you're worried about, send us an email at assemblyrequired at crooked.com or leave us a voicemail and you and your questions and comments might be featured on the pod.

Our number is 213-293-9509.

That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams, and I'll meet you here next week.

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is a crooked media production.

Our lead show producer is Alona Minkowski and our associate producer is Paulina Velasco.

Kirill Polaviev is our video producer.

This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis.

Our theme song is by Vasilius Votopoulos.

Thank you to Matt DeGroote, Kyle Seglund, Tyler Boozer, and Samantha Slossberg for production support.

Our executive producers are Katie Long, Madeline Herringer, and me, Stacey Abrams.

Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

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