Better Than Gold: Critical Minerals

28m

Critical minerals have hit the headlines of almost every news outlet this week as US President Donald Trump made his desires to mine them in Ukraine clear.

These precious resources are a hot geopolitical bargaining chip thanks to our reliance on them in everything from mobile phones to wind turbines.

This week, Inside Science unearths everything you need to know about critical minerals; what they are, why they’re critical, and what we do when there’s no more left to mine.

Also this week, we come to the end of a laborious seven-year journey of collecting and identifying Scotland’s most valued Jurassic fossil. And Nature journalist Lizzie Gibney brings us her pick of the week’s science news, including moon landers and woolly mice.

Presenter: Marnie Chesterton
Producers: Sophie Ormiston, Gerry Holt, Ella Hubber
Editor: Martin Smith
Production Co-ordinator: Jana Bennett-Holesworth

To discover more fascinating science content, head to bbc.co.uk search for BBC Inside Science and follow the links to The Open University.

Listen and follow along

Transcript

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This is the podcast for BBC Inside Science, first broadcast on the 6th of March 2025.

I'm Marnie Chesterton.

Hello, this week your guide to the Ukrainian minerals hitting the headlines, a Jurassic surprise breaks free from from some different minerals and how to fight waste using toddler power.

Plus, joining me to chat through this week's latest science news, journalist from nature, Lizzie Gibney.

Hello.

Hi, Monnie.

Thanks for having me.

What can we expect from you?

Just a taster?

A taster would be two very different kinds of beasts.

One very cute, fits in your palm and four-legged, and the other six-legged and armed with a drill.

Excellent.

Intriguing.

Now, minerals don't usually make for sexy headlines.

my guests might disagree, but they are well and truly in the spotlight thanks to some recent announcements by President Trump.

These elements have become a geopolitical bargaining chip, with America looking for a share of Ukraine's critical minerals as part of a deal for US aid.

Which is cue for Inside Science to dig up everything you need to know about so-called critical minerals.

What are they?

Where are they?

And why are they critical to everything from electric cars to net zero targets?

And is our reliance on them now beginning to leave us between a rock and a hard place?

Nice.

Sorry.

Here in the studio, putting up with that pun is material scientist and friend of the show, Mark Miyadovnik.

Hello.

Hello.

And on the line, Dr.

Holly Elliott from the British Geological Survey.

Hello.

Hello, thank you very much for having me.

So Holly, you first.

What makes a mineral critical?

Well, anything that's called critical is really fundamental to the success of something.

So, when we're talking about a critical mineral here in the UK, we are saying that it is vitally important to the UK, but also assessing its risk of supply and the impact of that supply disruption as well.

And here in the UK, we've recently had a critical mineral assessment came out last year, and it's now 34 minerals that have been deemed critical to the UK.

Okay, so it's just kind of like a hot list that we put minerals on.

What's on it?

So, it's things like the rare earth elements, there's cobalt on there, nickel, lithium, all of those ones that you think of as being those high-technology elements that go into things like smartphones, laptops, and also green technologies.

And you just mentioned green technologies.

How important are these critical minerals to achieving that target of net zero by twenty fifty?

They really are intrinsically linked.

There's two real parts of net zero carbon that are driving the demand of minerals, and that is electric cars and renewable energy.

And electric cars and the motors within them contain quite a large number of elements, but in particular things like rare earth elements, we're talking iron, and we're also talking boron that make up the magnets that go into electric cars.

But when it comes to renewable energy, solar requires really high purity silica, selenium, tellurium, but also we've got wind power here in the UK as well and that takes quite large proportions of copper, nickel, cobalt, but also things like rare earth, silica and also iron.

Holly, can't we just mine more of these minerals?

If only it was that simple.

So deposits of these minerals, they really don't occur everywhere.

It's more of what we like as geologists to call the Goldilocks effects.

You need just the right processes to occur all together in the same place and the same time in order to actually form a deposit of these critical minerals.

But let's say you found your next brilliant massive deposit that's due to be mined.

It actually takes a huge amount of time to get from finding a deposit to actually extracting from a deposit.

Usually we say a minimum of around about 10 years, but it's not just that.

Even if you find a deposit, there's sometimes we don't know how to process the minerals that are in the deposit.

It might be that there's something on the surface like a nature reserve.

So, it is not just as easy about finding a deposit, there are lots of steps.

Holly, can I just quickly check?

One of the numbers that's been mentioned with this US-Ukraine aid deal is 500 billion.

Now I associate the Ukraine with wheat and sunflower oil.

Does it actually even have $500 billion worth of critical minerals in it?

Well that's the thing.

Nobody really quite knows what the Ukraine has at the moment.

We know that they are producing things like manganese, titanium, graphite and a little bit of uranium.

And there has been some sort of rumours around having critical minerals like lithium, neodymium for example and the rare earth elements.

But at the moment, we don't quite know how much of it they have and in which minerals these metals actually sit to know whether they are able to be processed and extracted properly.

Okay, and back here in the UK, Mark, I'm taking it that we don't have the critical minerals.

What can we do to secure our future?

Well, we have a lithium mine that is opening up in Cornwall.

The other important thing to note is that if you kind of invest in a mine and then that commodity becomes less valuable because someone else has invested in another mine somewhere else in the world and they're producing it cheaper then you go out of business and the uk has kind of suffered from that in the past yeah there's a gold mine up in the highlands that closes and opens according to the gold price because it's just not worth their while to do it if it's if the price is too low and also in greenland recently there's an investor in a uranium mine that's suing the greenland government for having refused planning permission to extract the uranium and the reason why they were refused is because they asked the population like do you want a uranium mine and they said no we're going to get poisoned by it and now now that company is suing the government, you know, as the environment becomes more important to people, these mining operations become more expensive.

Just to jump in at the end there, lots of these supply chains that we have for critical minerals at the moment are being completely monopolised by one country.

And if, for example, the rare earth supply chain, which is completely monopolised by China, means that they have the ability to export set amounts.

And that means that they can control the market in terms of the price of these these things.

So, actually, in the UK, despite us not having much in terms of deposits, we can actually support those trade agreements around the world and help diversify where we get these materials from and therefore reduce the supply risk coming into the UK.

And just wrapping this up, Mark, you're saying that we can just mine the drawers of obsolete tech that we all have lying around our own homes?

It's a massive opportunity for us.

As we start having more of that tech in our lives, more turbines, more electric cars, cars, we will have a homegrown recycling industry to supply the future.

And that's the best way to protect ourselves against these supply disruptions.

Thank you, Mark Miyadovnik and minerals geoscientist Dr.

Holly Elliott.

And Mark, you're still with me.

You've brought something in.

I have.

It's something called a sea potato.

It's a mineral nodule from four kilometres down in the Indian Ocean.

It's full of these critical metals and of great interest.

Have a look at it.

Right, these were the last minerals to hit the headlines because they were kind of one time you can harvest them once.

Absolutely.

And we were talking about the programme a few weeks ago, and I said, I really want to hold one in my hand.

I really want one for our materials library at UCL where I work.

And I did a shout-out, and Ross, one of your listeners, sent one in.

So here we are.

And it's extraordinary.

It looks a lot like a black truffle, but I mean a big one, sort of slightly bigger than a golf ball.

Yes, a truffle crossed with a meteorite, isn't it?

Can I just say at this point, if our listeners are giving us us stuff that we're doing a call out for, I'd like a diamond as big as the writ.

Thanks.

Good thinking.

Okay, everyone gets one call out per programme.

I'll get thinking on mine.

Thank you, wonderful listeners.

We do love hearing from you.

Don't forget, if you have any questions for us, you can send them to insidescience at bbc.co.uk.

Prepare yourselves for another geology-based delight, this time from Scotland's Isle of Sky.

Now, this is a lump of rock that I personally have been following for seven years, which is the time that it's taken to collect, scan, prep and identify.

And if I say that this rock is Jurassic, that might give you some hint that I was hoping, yes, it would be a dinosaur.

And earlier, I left the studio to gawp at the polished-up specimen for the big reveal with two of the team behind the find.

Hi, I'm Dr.

Elsa Panchiroli.

I'm a NERC Independent Research Fellow at National Museum of Scotland.

I'm Dr.

Stig Walsh.

I'm the Senior Curator of Vertebrate Paleobiology at the National Museum of Scotland.

We are stood around looking at this fossil.

How old is it?

So it's about 166 million years old.

So that's the Middle Jurassic.

It comes from the Isle of Skye.

Stig, tell me about the Isle of Skye.

Why is that a special place for finding fossils?

It's one of the few places in Scotland that actually preserve rocks from the age of dinosaurs.

And it's very special because the rest of Scotland, when the ice ages came and the ice sheets came down from the north, they've just removed the rest of that rock, and Skye still has it.

So, let's go back to when you first found this fossil.

There's a team of us that do field work on the Isle of Skye annually,

and it was in 2017.

We move along the shore looking for fossils of all different kinds of animals, mostly very small ones.

One of the team members members found, well, a bunch of bones sticking out of the rock, but in a really, really awkward place.

So the top of this like truck-sized boulder, you had to kind of balance precariously on other boulders to see it.

It was possibly the worst place you could put a fossil for if you want to collect it.

So we all stood around and had a kind of chat about it and tried to figure out what it could be and whether it was something we actually wanted to collect.

You see some bones sticking out here?

So we can see that it has a sort of minimum extent of maybe about 70 centimetres by 70 centimetres.

But the question is, what angle does it sit at?

Is there lots more of it inside or is that it?

Because it could be that the whole of the rest of the animal fell off

hundreds of years ago and we could just be looking at what's left.

Or we could be looking at the tip and there could be the rest of it inside the rock.

So we have absolutely no idea.

So what is going on?

Well, I think we're saying we were going to...

Well, I have to say that initially I didn't want to collect it at all.

It looked far too dangerous for me.

Well,

it's difficult to get to this place, but it's also within the sort of tide line.

So it means that you can only get there certain hours of the day.

It's at the base of very steep cliffs.

So this is not somewhere that's very easy to get in, even if you do want to take something, even if you want to take something small away.

So it was a case of trying to figure out if we wanted to collect something much larger, how would you actually go about doing that?

And that's where we kind of had to bring together a team of people with expertise of collecting fossils of that size.

Including a couple of Canadians, Matt and Brett, who specialise in getting exhibits to museums.

And I mean, these guys are hefty and they brought the drills and the ropes and the kind of MacGaith attitude.

That's your first hurdle, really, that you have to face with this specimen, is that you have to drill it.

But Elsa, that's not simple.

There are ways that that could go horribly wrong.

Yeah, so when you're trying to basically release a block of rock from a much larger block of rock, how do you go about doing it?

So the method really in this case is to create holes all around it and then try and break the rock, fracture it.

But the rock in the shoreline where we work doesn't break in nice neat patterns.

So we had no way of knowing for sure that we would manage to break it neatly and wouldn't just you know accidentally uh smash it or accidentally crack it in half

so which way is it going to split that hole it's splitting in four different ways so we're hoping it sort of lifts up like this we have one crack that's not ideal back in this corner but

so that's it off the boulder but it's now on the plastic and still attached to all the ropes.

So, this is going to be kind of the most tricky bit, really.

Is it just going to be brute force, or is there a kind of tactic you've got for this?

Well, from what I understand from the guys, the tactic is really just to inch it.

So, as they've been doing it to actually get it off the boulder, just to keep inching it carefully down.

So, at no point is it going to like slide off out of control or anything like that?

I don't think any of us will stop being anxious until it's completely on that rock platform and safe.

One more.

Yay!

Strap it on.

Thank you guys for waiting.

That was amazing.

Now let's get down to a ball.

Okay, so we've got it by this point.

It's off the boulder, and then we have to strap it to a frame that's essentially like a sedan chair.

If you imagine what Cleopatra was carried around in in ancient Egypt, how much did it weigh?

Oh, about 250 kilograms, something like that.

So this is not a small piece of rock.

Yeah, it's hard to transport something that size even a short distance, but especially in a really, really rocky shoreline.

Plus, as you get closer to the shore, you've got seaweed as well, so it's really slippy.

And I guess we were worried about two things.

One is that it would get dropped and potentially damaged, or the other one is that we would get it on the boat and then the boat would capsize and we'd lose it at the bottom of the sea.

So we tied lots of boys, I don't know how many of them on, something like six or seven of them on, and just crossed our fingers that if the worst came to the worst, it would at least not sink and we could maybe somehow retrieve it.

Yeah, I've come down to the harbour, and although the mountains opposite are shrouded in mist, there are blue patches of sky, so it's good weather for dragging several hundred pounds of precious rock on a small raft.

It all go okay.

Well, the farcel's here,

but you still don't know whether it's a turtle or a dinosaur at this stage?

Yes, we have a bit of a

problem in that site is that we usually refer to it as Turtle Central.

There are an awful lot of turtle bones in that rock.

There is quite a large team of us who've been basically visiting it periodically and making new notes and new observations and then having to go away and compare what they're seeing with other specimens.

So that's what's been happening for the last few years before we wrote it up.

I just wanted to give our Inside Science listeners a peek inside science, I guess, in the process of how long it takes to get anything from the ground to the national collections.

And you published today, congratulations, and what can we finally say it is?

It turns out this is the most complete dinosaur fossil from Scotland, currently known.

And it was also historically the first one ever found back in 1973, long before we collected it.

Do we know what it is?

A bunch of bones.

Elsa, anything more specific?

We can say 100% it is definitely a dinosaur.

And we've also managed to narrow down the group.

And we are able to confirm that by looking at the shapes of the bones, which we've, of course, compared to other fossils.

But we've also done it through histology, which is the sort of microstructure, in this case, of the bones.

And it matches a group of dinosaurs called ornithopods.

Stig, what's an ornithopod?

Oh, a very strange group group of dinosaurs that were mostly bipedal, but they could move on all fours when they wanted to as well.

And we have trackways that actually show this.

You might be familiar with some of the sort of more famous species of ornithopod, like iguanodon, which comes from much, much later on in time.

This is a really early member of that same group.

So they're, well, large-ish herbivores.

This animal was probably about the size of a pony.

An iguanodon to me is a bit sort of velociraptor T-rex type, that body shape.

That mixed with a pony?

Yeah, actually, to be honest, that's not a bad way of putting it.

This is radio, so can I just share with our audience who at this point might be thinking that we're looking at something like the cast of Dippy the Diplodocus?

This is a lot more squashed because I can't work out a head or a tail.

I think most people would realize they're bones, I think.

But no, they don't look like these really beautiful specimens you would imagine, you know, from television.

You don't look at it and immediately see where the limbs are, where the head is, or anything.

The bones themselves are black against this sort of pale bluish rock.

And if you look here, you can see some of the actual sort of bone structure.

You get these lovely little dimples, and here again, you can see a honeycomb.

Can you see how it's broken?

And that's when it's really obvious that it's bone that you're looking at.

But what the actual bones are was difficult even for us to figure out.

I think it was worth the effort because

it's a very unusual looking specimen but it you know it's significant, it's important.

Well the thing about sky is that it's quite remarkable in terms of how much diversity there is there but when it comes to actual dinosaur fossils we don't have that many.

This is the first of its kind.

These are the animals that would have been actually wandering across the whole of Scotland at this time.

This is giving us an absolutely fantastic window into what was going on in the middle Jurassic.

Well for today congratulations on the announcement.

And

can I ask how you feel now that it's definitely a dinosaur?

Relieved.

It would have been wonderful no matter what it was, but I'm really relieved that it's turned out to be something that people can be so excited about.

I'm really happy today that it has actually happened, and finally, the world gets to know what we've been up to for the last eight years.

Thanks to Elsa Panchiroli and Stig Walsh at the National Museum Scotland.

Home now to Scotland's most complete and first identified dinosaur.

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Mark Miyadovnik is still here with me.

Mark, we're moving from treasure to trash, and you bring news of a study that's going to make the UK less rubbish.

Yeah, well, so I'm a material scientist, and we've been looking into diapers, nappies, and you know, there's 300,000 of them disposed of every minute.

Wow, yes,

and so that's a big problem.

So, we've been looking at recycling them and collecting them, recycling them.

And when we were doing that work, we suddenly thought, well, hold on a minute, that's going to take us ages, and it's really difficult to work out how to do it.

Is there a way in the meantime we can just stop this, you know, huge amount going into the environment?

And we started thinking, well, actually, hold on a minute, the number of diapers per baby is a certain number and and if you could reduce that then you would you would halve the waste so toilet training age and we looked into that data and we thought oh my god that's crazy like in the 1950s kids were being toilet trained on average 28 months by the 2000s it's 37 months oh so children are spending longer in nappies hence more nappies yes and so that we've launched the citizen science project called the big toilet project anyone toilet training a child can join it and what we want to know is what works.

Like when you're doing it, what age do you start?

What methods are you using?

What support do you have?

What is your situation?

Are you, you know, a two-working parent family?

You know, what?

Because we're trying to work out with this citizen science project why it's moved.

And once we've got some evidence for that and we actually have some good data, we can then start working with policymakers to understand how we can support parents better to reduce the toilet training age and reduce the waste.

So this is your call out for this week?

Yes, because you know, really, we need people to help.

It's the only way to get this data is actually the people who are toilet training their kids.

Just go to the website BigToilet Project, and you'll see it's a list of questions that take about five minutes.

So,

I've been there, I've toilet trained kids, I know that you're exhausted, you're tired, you're sleep-deprived.

But also, we're letting people do a diary and we want to help people plot their journey through that success to toilet training, full toilet training, so that we've got this data set that really accurately describes the full range of people's experiences.

And Mark, you're going to come back on to Inside Science once you've got some results.

Now, also round the table is nature journalist Lizzie Gibney, potty training.

Any thoughts?

Well, I was going to say, I think I'm one of those busy, exhausted people.

I've got a four-year-old and a two-year-old.

And really interestingly, so my sister-in-law over in Brazil, they toilet train most of their kids by about a year and a half.

And partly the reason is cost.

It's kind of, you know, they're pushed to do it because nappies are just too expensive.

Absolutely.

And this is why this is a great study because it's a win-win.

Like the parents win, it reduces the cost for the family.

The kid wins.

There are no health disbenefits from being toilet trained earlier, despite what many influencers on social media might tell you.

You can start really early.

The government wins, the environment wins.

Like it's a win-win-win-win.

It's very rare to find interventions that might really deliver on that.

I'm happy to do some kind of focus group if you need it.

Great.

Now, Lizzie, breaking science, what's your first pick this week?

So my pick is the very busy week that it has been on the moon this week.

So we had the first fully successful private lander on the moon on Sunday.

So that was Blue Ghost from a US company called Firefly.

And in the past, we had the first private lander land on the moon, but it kind of landed a bit akimbo and toppled.

So this was the first that was really successful.

And then we've got another attempt happening today.

So that's Athena from Intuitive Machines.

And yeah, I think that will be happening very soon after, I hope, after this programme finishes.

About half an hour, an hour, something like that.

So I think this is really interesting for me because people probably get quite blasé about, oh yeah, things are landing on the moon.

You know, hasn't that been happening since the 60s?

But actually, this is very, very difficult.

These are being done by private companies.

These are prototypes.

They have to be super light in order to be able to be blasted up there into space.

And it's not easy to land on the moon.

There's very little atmosphere.

You can't use parachutes.

You know, in some ways, it's harder than it would be to land on Mars.

So this is a very challenging thing, and an awful lot of landers have crashed.

There was an Israeli one recently, a Japanese one, this US one last year as well.

So, if both of them, if we have two successful landers there this week, that will be a big win.

And is it going to anywhere in particular?

It's going to near the south pole.

And the south pole of the moon is very interesting because, thinking a bit about the critical minerals, well, what's very, very critical, perhaps not a mineral, but on the moon, is water and ice.

They are hoping to sample.

So, so in fact the Athena lander has got a little tiny kind of baby hopping rover that is going to exploit the fact that there is not much gravity on the moon and do these enormous leaps into a crater, which they think harbours these ice deposits.

Now, what can you get from ice?

You can get eventually, hopefully, perhaps breathable oxygen, as well as the hydrogen and oxygen that you need in order to make rocket fuel.

So what they're looking towards is a future where humanity has more of a base on the moon.

You know, I think it's 2027.

NASA has most recently said

they will put people again on the moon.

And perhaps further down the line, there will be some kind of, you know, scientific base, a bit like we have on Antarctica.

And you're going to need resources for that.

So this mission that's landing today, it's testing for water.

Anything else?

Yes, one other fascinating part of it is it's going to put the first 4G network on the moon.

So at the moment, when you have missions on the moon, you do this kind of private radio contact point to point but if it's going to be a lot busier on the moon in the future effectively you want a cell phone network and that is what they are trialling for the first time today.

So you can get 4G on the moon but not in the middle of London.

That's fine.

That's fine.

I'm not bitter at this.

This is the future.

What else have you picked?

This is the woolly mouse.

It is extremely adorable.

It's been engineered by scientists to have this long shaggy kind of hair and apparently making it quite so adorable was actually an accident.

This is a company called Colossal Biosciences, and their ultimate goal is to de-extinct the woolly mammoth.

Now, obviously, that's quite a challenging thing to do.

It's a big thing, literally.

It is a very, very big.

They're starting small.

They are.

What they're trying to do is show that they can pinpoint genes, the mutations in those genes, that make a mammoth what it was.

The kind of mammoth-like traits being things like long, shaggy, kind of golden hair and tolerance to cold.

So what they did was they studied ancient genomes of mammoths and of other kind of living relatives and they tried to pinpoint what these genes are and then they did mutations like those in a mouse.

And so they have a mouse that has some traits that are very mammoth-like.

Most of them are mouse genes that are already known to affect traits in mice.

And this is one of the reasons many scientists say this isn't as big a leap as the companies say it is.

The other thing of course is this is a mouse and not an elephant.

The ultimate goal would be to engineer an elephant to be a mammoth.

We'd be looking at changing many, many more genes.

The elephant, you know, genome is much less studied than the mouse, which is, you know, the workhorse of bioscience labs.

And so, what the company says is this is a validation of their approach.

You know, they can find a gene that they think has an effect and they can prove that in living being.

So, in that sense, they have made a woolly-looking mouse.

I'm just fascinated by it's a company because

what's the business plan here?

That is a great question.

It's valued at $10 billion, this company.

I mean, what?

I don't know.

The idea behind it is de-extinction.

They say they want to refill these ecological niches.

They want to rebuild certain ecosystems where perhaps the mammoth and other species were crucial parts of that.

Where the value is in that for a big company?

I don't know.

Yeah.

That's fascinating.

And on that note, sadly, I'm going to draw this to a close because that's all we have time for.

I should should just say that Inside Science has previously interviewed Colossal Biosciences, the company behind the woolly mice.

And if you want to listen to that spirited debate, it's all there on the BBC Inside Science homepages.

Ben Garrett is in the host's seat next week, but for this week, thanks to my studio guests, Lizzie Gibney from Nature and Mark Miadovnik from UCL.

Thanks both.

Thank you.

You've been listening to BBC Inside Science with me, Marnie Chesterton.

And if you want more on El Gol's Dinosaur, can I recommend this week's Outlook on the BBC World Service, which has a long interview with Elsa Pancieroli?

Back here, the producers of BBC Inside Science were Sophie Ormiston, Ella Hubber, and Jerry Holt.

Technical production was by Bob Nettles and Rhys Morris.

The show was made by BBC Wales and West.

To discover more fascinating science content, head to bbc.co.uk, search for BBC Inside Science and follow the links to the Open University.

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Most home fire and carbon monoxide fatalities are preventable with the right safety products, including smoke and carbon monoxide alarms that can alert you when a hazard has been detected.

Teach kids that when they hear beeps that last, they need to get out fast.

Join KIDA in highlighting the importance of fire and carbon monoxide safety preparedness in homes across the country so our families, and especially our children, can always feel safe.

To learn more, get involved, and help us spread the word about the importance of fire and carbon monoxide readiness.

Visit causeforalarm.org.