It Could Happen Here Weekly 177

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Speaker 9 Hey guys, it's Erin Andrews from Calm Down with Erin and Carissa. So as a sideline reporter, game day is extra busy for me, but I know it can be busy for parents everywhere.

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Speaker 10 I turned off news altogether.

Speaker 11 I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

Speaker 12 It's the rage bait

Speaker 13 it feels like it's trying to divide people

Speaker 14 we got clear facts maybe we could calm down a little

Speaker 19 nbc news brings you clear reporting let's meet at the facts let's move forward from there nbc news reporting for america

Speaker 7 listen to high key a bold joyful unfiltered culture podcast speaking of crunchy what did you think of your trainer's run i was amazing on that show Sister, were you? I had

Speaker 7 and I was better than you would be if you went. This is exactly why Bob is a good drag queen because she won't back down

Speaker 7 and go double back on that lie. I felt like you came in real hot, real strong, and that is just not the game, bro.

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Speaker 4 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode.

Speaker 4 So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

Speaker 4 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions.

Speaker 23 Welcome to It Could Happen Here. It is continuing to happen.

Speaker 23 Stonks. But we will discuss stonks probably later this week.

Speaker 23 This episode is going to be much more fun because I am pleased to have returning to the show, Ellie Eerman, writer, comedian, and creator and host of Going Down with Ellie Eerman, a trans political comedy news show.

Speaker 23 As well as joining us here is Teen Vogue's news and politics editor, Lex McMiniman. Welcome, both of you.
Hi.

Speaker 24 Hi, thanks.

Speaker 23 We're going to be talking about the recent Teen Vogue special issue cover story on Vivian Wilson, the estranged daughter of Elon Musk.

Speaker 23 Ella, you put together a fantastic piece last month, and this is what we're gonna discuss, how this article came together, that viral photo shoot in Japan, which is fantastic.

Speaker 23 All the styling in that shoot was lovely. But I think this particular piece was really relevant for

Speaker 23 trans people and also relevant because of the way

Speaker 23 global politics has been shaken up by a few specific people. And focusing in on Vivian, I think was really special.
So I guess I would first like to hear about

Speaker 23 the broad strokes of how this first came together.

Speaker 24 From our perspective,

Speaker 24 I don't know that everyone is aware of this.

Speaker 24 And certainly I don't know that all of my friends in our various trans subcultures know this, but at Team Vogue, we've been covering trans politics and trans rights for a long time, like far before I got here, but I've been here for almost four years and it's been a pretty big part of my beat in part because of it being like a very unavoidable thing within following like US state legislatures and then obviously like at the federal level, which has only intensified more and more in the last year.

Speaker 24 And so that's like one aspect of it, but at the same time, we love young people that shit post. And so Vivian had been on our radar for a while.

Speaker 7 Totally.

Speaker 24 I also think people are maybe more aware of this whole like comrade teen vogue vibe of like we're really interested in talking to people that have a clear clear political leaning that have like a sense of how they see themselves in the world in a political context.

Speaker 24 And Vivian sort of came right out the gate as someone who was really eager to share her thoughts on these things.

Speaker 24 So from last summer, like within like a month of when Vivian was kind of introduced to the world through her father talking about her on Jordan Peterson's podcast, we were trying to get in touch with her and it was something I was talking a lot about within the office.

Speaker 24 And we didn't really know what to do because she was just kind of, she just kind of emerged from from nowhere onto the internet.

Speaker 24 And so I had been talking about it a lot, including with Ella, because we talk a lot.

Speaker 24 And so Ella eventually revealed, like, oh, that's Oomphi. I am mutuals with Vivian.

Speaker 7 Not Oomphi.

Speaker 24 You did kind of, I mean, substantively.

Speaker 25 Are you threads, umphies?

Speaker 7 What are you oomphis on? Instagram. Instagram.
Nice.

Speaker 8 I would never use threads. My God.

Speaker 24 So over to you. That's my, that's my teen vogue intro, but Ella, if you wanna.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 23 No, because yeah, I am interested in contacting Vivian because she was certainly getting like an unhinged number of media requests starting last summer.

Speaker 8 Yeah, that's true. Right.
So she did that one NBC interview after Elon went on Peterson.

Speaker 8 And I do not work at Teen Vogue, but Lex and I know each other because you're contractually obligated to know everyone else who's part of the Deep State Illuminati doing trans politics online club.

Speaker 24 Yeah, I was just going to say trans people club. The pronoun.
Also also deep state.

Speaker 23 Yeah.

Speaker 4 The pronouns.

Speaker 8 We're all

Speaker 23 established members.

Speaker 8 We swear allegiance once a year. There's a whole ritual.

Speaker 7 Don't worry about it.

Speaker 8 So when I got in touch with Vivian last fall, which I got in touch with her initially to see if she would come on going down, and I reached out to her and I said, Do you want to come on my live comedy show?

Speaker 8 And she said, No, I'm actually not sure live comedy is for me. I'm a little worried I'm not funny enough.

Speaker 8 And since then, she has changed her mind.

Speaker 8 She's she's told me repeatedly that she regrets saying that to me that she has decided she actually is funnier than everyone else alive um all of the things that a prolific 20 year old poster uh might say absolutely but so i i got in touch with her and then she said no and i was like okay well at least i have this mutual now and then a few months later i mentioned to lex that I'd gotten in touch with her and Lex said, okay, so she doesn't want to do a live comedy show that nobody, that nobody knows about.

Speaker 24 Does not want to do a live comedy show.

Speaker 8 What if instead we did a really fancy photo shoot and put her in Teen Vogue, a legacy journalism magazine? And I said, honestly, I think that's a better sales pitch.

Speaker 8 And it was.

Speaker 23 Yeah, no, it is really compelling. I mean, that the photo shoot pulls a whole bunch of people in.
It's certainly, if I was in Vivian's position, that would be interesting to me.

Speaker 23 And it does help spread around.

Speaker 23 Like, like so much of the piece is talking about like the struggles of living as a young trans person in America and the fact that you can use a Teen Vogue vote issue to like spread writing about that around the internet is like super, super useful.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, I just want to like second what Lex has been saying. I think the work Teen Vogue has been doing is really important.

Speaker 8 Like so many, I mean, Garrison, you know, like so much trans media is like independently distributed and like DIY.

Speaker 8 And I love us for that, but it is always really heartening to see like mainstream media institutions uplift trans voices the way Teen Vogue has been doing.

Speaker 24 And it's also like Condé Nast as an institution, which is like Teen Vogue's parent company, is only one of multiple media conglomerates that will very proudly use trans people in a representative way,

Speaker 24 and sell magazine covers with trans people on it. You could think of Hunter Schaefer, for example.

Speaker 24 She's been on the cover of several Vogues, but at the same time, Hunter Schaefer also received a misgendering passport after the Trump admin.

Speaker 24 So I think that if Legacy Media is unwilling to connect the dots between like profiting off of like the aesthetics of trans people, but not actually like talking about the political underpinnings of like why trans people are even able to be visible at this time and like what the you know trapdoor as termaline calls it of trans visibility means, then it's like, why even do this work in the first place?

Speaker 24 So Vivian was like a really great opportunity for us to like build on, like we've done several photo shoots, particularly with trans women and trans girls at Teenvo, because we like feel very strongly, and Ella makes this point in the piece, that like the way that trans femme people are are like objectified and commodified, and also, like, the target of such extreme vitriol is something it feels really important to take a stand against.

Speaker 24 It just felt like doing this with Vivian, who's so high-profile, but also hadn't had the opportunity yet to take control of her own narrative in the public eye.

Speaker 24 And with this being her second ever interview, first ever photo shoot, like, it just felt like a really big opportunity that was worth using as a big swing, you know?

Speaker 23 No, like, she is at like the center of this like matrix of trans commodification in so many ways.

Speaker 23 Like, like, this, this special issue is the first time Vivian was really, like, framed as the subject matter of, like, any piece and, like, framed as her own person.

Speaker 23 For the entirety of her adult life, she's been used as this rhetorical object, like, both by her dad, but as well as like by people on the left who's like objectified Vivian to use her as a bludgeon against her father.

Speaker 23 Totally.

Speaker 23 And yeah, like, people are very willing to like commodify or use trans people in certain ways, but to have like trans people writing about other trans people in a way that frames them as a subject matter is so important.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, I think Vivian, one of the things that drew me to the story in the first place is that Vivian's sort of case is such an interesting microcosm of the trans femme experience as a whole.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 8 She's incredibly talked about for something that is not her fault and not under her control at all.

Speaker 8 In the same way that right now on the national stage, like trans femininity and transness at large, but specifically trans femininity is the like problem to be spoken about,

Speaker 8 especially by conservatives. Like Butler calls it a phantasm, the like gender nonsense.

Speaker 7 I read that book.

Speaker 24 You have my copy, I think.

Speaker 8 I'm almost certain I do.

Speaker 23 That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 7 Almost certainly.

Speaker 23 That's the trouble with gender, right?

Speaker 8 Gender trouble, yeah. No, no, that's the original book.

Speaker 7 It's who's afraid of gender.

Speaker 24 It's who's afraid of gender. Thank you very much.

Speaker 8 Oh, I have your book, but I haven't looked at it in a long time, except for to remember the word phantasm.

Speaker 8 And so, yeah, I totally agree with what Lex said: it's really exciting to sort of like take her out of being used as a prop and give her her own voice back.

Speaker 8 I think one of the most exciting moments in the piece to me is the moment where I ask her about sort of the allegations that Elon like shifted rightward because of her.

Speaker 8 And she pushes back against sort of that narrative. very strongly.

Speaker 23 And I think that is the way we've seen her being used both on the left and the right as sort of a, this is why he's doing this it's clearly the fact that he has this 20 year old trans girl and she's like actually that's a crazy thing to say about a about a 20 year old well and especially to like counter the narrative of her life that's been driven by walter isaacson's 2023 biography which is like so hostile and and to have like a prominent like a prominent biography like that like trying to make a narrative out of out of your existence and it was something you have like no like input in no control in that's like so demeaning It's also like a very trans misogyny moment as well.

Speaker 23 Like, yeah, it is interesting how much of like Vivian is so relatable. Like, like a lot of trans people have, shall I say, challenging relationships with their parents.
Maybe not to this extreme, but

Speaker 23 sometimes, frankly, right? Like, there's a lot of people are forced to cut off contact with their family.

Speaker 24 Yeah, no, I've just been thinking a lot about this because, you know, Trump released yet another executive order.

Speaker 24 I think this one was today, basically trying to codify allowing trans youth to access gender-affirming care as abuse, quote-unquote, which is like something that the Republican Party has been flagging for months that they were going to do at the federal level as well.

Speaker 24 It has already shown up in the rhetoric around trans youth healthcare, which obviously is going to be used as justification for targeting trans adults access to health care.

Speaker 24 And something that, you know, I'm the only trans person on my team.

Speaker 24 Something that kept coming up in Vivian's story was that it was almost like anyone could relate to this because anyone can relate to having like a shitty parent, an abusive parent, like a bad dad, whatever.

Speaker 24 And so I think there's an extent to which this story has like a lot of value in like forcing cis people to really be confronted with the fact that like how trans youth are treated like objectively is like abusive and it's not the access to healthcare that is the abuse.

Speaker 24 It's like the way that they're dismissed. It's the way they're belittled.

Speaker 24 It's the way they can't even be like trusting their own parents to be looking out for them and to the extent that they have to push themselves out into the world to clarify that point.

Speaker 24 So like, that's one aspect of it. I totally agree with what you were both saying, that it is like a microcosm of the trans experience.

Speaker 24 But I do think there's like this other valence for like allowing her to like control how this is being perceived or received sort of by cis media and like cis, like the cis political sphere, which is like how trans people are just getting shoved into that over and over and over again with very little context, felt like a really valuable thing to be able to do, given how, like, frankly, so much of my coverage right now just feels like it's like trying to raise attention to the fact that, like, these are kids, these are young people.

Speaker 24 Like, everyone should be able to relate to a young person saying, I have a bad parent, and that sucks and is a formative thing for me.

Speaker 24 Like, that is something that other children are afforded the ability to do.

Speaker 24 And, like, we just don't let trans kids have that as something that's part of their truth when it's such a key part of growing up trans in a hostile household.

Speaker 23 And something like Vivian talked about at length is like as someone who did transition as a minor, there's all this like villainization around

Speaker 23 whether that's puberty suppressing hormones, whether that's having HRT, and how like the landscape that like me, like her, Ella, and like a lot of people that our age came out of is not going to exist for the next generation of like trans kids, or at least it's going to be very different.

Speaker 23 And we need to do everything we can to stop it from being as bad as what it looks like it's going to be.

Speaker 23 And Vivian like talked about this at length in the piece with the restriction of puberty blockers, all the stuff in schools, and this complete demonization of not just the healthcare, but also like the people, of like trans kids as this own demon of America

Speaker 23 that's like invading or is like threatening. So I think it is.
really cool of Vivian to talk about that at length in the special Teen Vogue cool photo shoot article.

Speaker 8 I will say I think, yeah, I think it's so important that that's talked about. And I'm glad she did.

Speaker 8 I'm also really glad as someone who covers like trans politics and news all the time, it was such a breath of fresh air to be able to frame this piece as like a look into what like the joy of transition looks like and looking at like

Speaker 8 how her transition has brought her closer to the life she wants to be living.

Speaker 8 And I'm not that old, but like talking to someone who's a few years younger than me and who transitioned at an earlier stage in life gave me like such a beautiful vision of what the future could look like if we, if we fix some of the bullshit that's going on these days.

Speaker 8 All right. I'm being, I'm being clowned on in the chat.
I'm not that much older than Vivian is what I meant. And now I'm peeking my microphone and the podcast is going to sound terrible.

Speaker 7 Look what you've done.

Speaker 8 I'm not that much older than Vivian, but she started transitioning at a much younger stage of life than me.

Speaker 24 And to see like what that has done for her and like the way, I don't know it was just really beautiful to talk to like a 20 year old girl and be like oh you're like trans but it's like it's like not actually that big of a deal and it like it also like confirms a thing that like I mean I made a joke about this earlier with like we love young people that shit post but like I think so much of liberal and right-wing talking points about like young people in general like sees them as so humorless like they are like cancel culture

Speaker 24 like our nonsense whereas Vivian is so funny like we actually struggle to cut jokes out of the piece like Ella and I Ella could tell you, we went back and forth for hours about so many jokes that did not.

Speaker 24 And just one-liners, like, she's so quickly.

Speaker 8 And so, like, so funny.

Speaker 24 She is extremely funny.

Speaker 23 A very dense style of humor, as in, like, there's a lot of, there's a lot packed in, like almost every other sentence.

Speaker 8 Alex and I are both some of the fastest talking people I know. And I, I would put Vivian in that same group of people who can.
keep up with us or out talk me.

Speaker 7 Uh-huh.

Speaker 23 That comes across in the writing too. Like the way that the interview is transcribed,

Speaker 23 you can read that pace into the piece.

Speaker 8 She's awesome. So much of our editing was just like sort of taking out, yeah, like little jokes or like, she's 20, so she is swearing all the time.

Speaker 24 Dude, the amount of cursing I much love, but also that was the editing process for this was much less like stress and more just like, how many F-bombs are we keeping today, heart hand emojis?

Speaker 8 The way edits go is you send in a piece and the editors give you, like, change some stuff. And then I get to look at a new draft and I get to be like, hey,

Speaker 8 why do you change that? And then we go back and forth over and over again until eventually it's not up to me anymore.

Speaker 8 But at one point, I did have to, I did have to say, actually, femme boy is one word.

Speaker 4 Correct.

Speaker 8 It's different from femme space boy and space boy. It meant something specific.
And I felt really like I was bringing.

Speaker 24 I'd like to clarify, I was not involved in the grammatical edit of that. There were multiple editors whose hands that's as a subject matter expert.

Speaker 24 What can I say?

Speaker 8 And then excuse me, Conde Nast. Femmboy means something.

Speaker 23 No, I am so happy that we have someone like Vivian who's able to appreciate drag way more than what I'm ever like able to, even though I can like appreciate it

Speaker 23 on like a conceptual level. Having this like complete sincere like engrossment in it is so, is so thrilling.

Speaker 23 Uh, because a significant portion of this piece is talking about how much Vivian loves drag.

Speaker 8 Oh my God. And

Speaker 8 so much.

Speaker 24 Ellen knows nothing about drag also.

Speaker 8 So that was like a really good combo for all of us that was i i yeah i sat down with her and and we started talking and very very quickly she brought up rupaul's drag race and i would just like she kept calling it rpdr which i'm pretty sure i've i've don't even get into

Speaker 8 checked my sources garrison is that something you call drag race have you heard rpdr said out loud I've never heard this.

Speaker 7 No.

Speaker 24 Okay, whatever.

Speaker 24 What I'm here to say is as someone who actually watches drag race, Ella, that is actually not that uncommon to refer to it that way.

Speaker 24 But, you know, we had two different roles as the two trans people whose brains were wiped by the story. Ella's job was to actually write the piece and mine was to interface with Vivian about

Speaker 7 drag race.

Speaker 24 So clearly it all came together the way it was supposed to.

Speaker 8 I did at the very end of our first call. I said, is there anything else you want to say? And she talked to me for another 15 minutes about drag race specifically.

Speaker 7 A classic rules. A classic rules.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 I was like, no, I like sort of meant about your dad or about like any of the important things we talked about. She's like, no.
So so in season 15 of drag race that rules

Speaker 24 that's so cool she's the best

Speaker 23 but no i i it it's it's so funny that you you you talk about how like there's this there's this caricature of like humorless trans people which is very funny because like all of like the biggest posters online right now are mostly trans women.

Speaker 23 The trans comedy scene is huge. And this is something that Vivian talks about, like spending the COVID lockdown in online queer communities and

Speaker 23 how

Speaker 23 the drama and conflict in those spaces trains you for how to be really funny and snappy. How fighting with

Speaker 23 fellow queer teenagers prepared you for that, which has certainly been my experience.

Speaker 8 I mean, there's a reason you can sort of tell, and I'm sure this applies to beyond trans people, but you can sort of tell which social media you grew up on.

Speaker 8 Like if you were a Tumblr teen or a reddit teen or a 4chan teen you can tell because your style of fighting and making jokes changes because it's it's it's such a deeply formative part of it and i i don't know what online forums the right were on uh growing up but they they were the wrong ones well a lot of 4chan as well sure

Speaker 23 just the not funny parts not the not fun yeah no i'm still trying to untrain my like a defensive way of writing that i learned on twitter because it's a horrible style where you a horrible style of writing.

Speaker 8 You have to like have like 12 prefaces.

Speaker 25 Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 7 You're

Speaker 7 article one.

Speaker 8 I am not a racist.

Speaker 23 Waffle pancaking the entire time, which is, it's weird because like it's like Twitter does have its own style of humor, which I also like picked up on, but it also has that defensive style of writing, which needs to get untrained.

Speaker 23 But it is, you know, a work, a work in progress.

Speaker 8 I think it's downstream of Tumblr.

Speaker 8 I

Speaker 8 remain strong on my stance that the Tumblr porn ban ruined the internet.

Speaker 23 No, absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker 23 I guess I'd like to talk a little bit more about the structure of the piece and how it succeeded so much in putting Vivian as a subject, right?

Speaker 23 Because the first half is written in more of like a traditional article format to give context and frame Vivian as a person.

Speaker 23 But then halfway through, it switches to a back and forth interview, which allows Vivian to just speak for herself.

Speaker 23 And I think having both of those and not just one or the other strengthens the piece entirely and strengthens like being able to see Vivian as a complete person. Because

Speaker 23 as I'm getting the context for her life and the political situation in the first half, then I get to see how much she reminds me of like regular 20-something trans girls

Speaker 23 and you know like half of the friends I have. Though I do disagree on Team PETA.
PETA's a bitch boy. It's Team Gail all the way.

Speaker 7 Thank you. Controversial.
Yeah, all right. All right.
All right.

Speaker 23 I'm excited that we agree on this.

Speaker 23 But

Speaker 23 those sorts of like offhand comments and like there's other things that like give you like a, you know, a view into

Speaker 23 this person. It's so useful to have like, you know, like at least 50% of the piece be this like just straight interview.

Speaker 24 We unsurprisingly talked a lot about how we were going to structure this piece and

Speaker 24 partially landed on Q ⁇ A format for like, we knew this was going to be a behemoth, like no matter how we tackled it given the subject matter, and then ultimately how long the transcript was.

Speaker 24 And, you know, just like,

Speaker 24 there were many aspects of this that like we were like, okay, how do we How do we do this in a way that's going to read well to people?

Speaker 24 Because something we also think about a lot is like accessibility.

Speaker 24 Like young people famously hate reading now, but we wanted this to actually be something that like a young person could sit down, dash through still get some like you know historical political context out of and still come away being like haha team pita team gale or whatever the hell right and so and maybe have like subway surfers on like another phone at the same time yeah exactly yes exactly exactly um and then i would say the the

Speaker 24 I want Ella to talk about the transcript and like interview stuff, but like the intro, I think is probably where I spent the most of my time editing this piece and like adding stuff and a lot of adding stuff.

Speaker 24 it ballooned. Like, we wanted this to be a lot shorter than it was.
And then it just kept feeling like there were more pieces to really tie it together.

Speaker 24 But I would say, like, the reason that was the case is because it was a really hard line to walk to acknowledge that like people would be clicking on this in part because of Elon, but that we wanted to like trick them into coming for Elon, but staying for Vivian.

Speaker 25 Yeah, like it's not about Elon, nor like, should it be. Yeah.

Speaker 24 Right. And so, like, one, like, Ella and I had a Zoom with Vivian in what, November was the first one, or was that? I think so.

Speaker 24 Yeah, November or December to just like so she could kind of get our vibe and just kind of suss out if she was willing to like consider this at all.

Speaker 24 And one of the earliest things she said was like, I don't really want to talk about him. I don't want this to be about him.
And we were really down for that.

Speaker 24 Like we don't think that her story is about him ultimately.

Speaker 24 I felt really important and it was also challenging to make sure that we felt like people were coming away with it from this without like a garbled interpretation of what the stakes were for her to be coming forward like we wanted it to be especially right now while so much of mainstream media is really fumbling their coverage of like politics at this moment it felt really important to be like trans politics especially especially and then also just like all of it so like all of it and then especially trans politics we just really wanted the intro to be like as strong and also like informative and also like kind of funny and also like just all the things because and i would say that probably took the most time ello correct me if i'm wrong but yeah I mean, I think the intro started off as probably

Speaker 8 an eighth of the piece. And yeah, now is closer to a half of the piece.
And there were so many hands on it. I wrote like sort of a very loose like skeleton of what that intro ended up being.

Speaker 24 And I would say the most like,

Speaker 24 it wasn't that many people adding text. It was mostly me.

Speaker 7 It was mostly Lex.

Speaker 8 But part of that is because, I mean, everything Lex said, but also that Musk is currently a high-level government official and is in the news all the time.

Speaker 8 I mean, when we started writing, the intro said that Musk had 13 children, and that we had to update that twice.

Speaker 23 New kid just dropped, yeah.

Speaker 8 Over the edit process, things wouldn't stop happening. And then also, Vivian wouldn't stop posting, which was a little bit frustrating.
At one point, I had to DM her.

Speaker 8 I said, hey, if you get any more information, can you please just tell me and not post it on threads? And she said, oh,

Speaker 7 totally.

Speaker 24 That girl is a poster.

Speaker 7 Poster and heart.

Speaker 8 But yeah, I mean, I think I really love the balance of the piece found in the end.

Speaker 8 Early on when we were talking about structure, I think I pushed for more of a standard profile.

Speaker 8 Mostly because, you know, then I get to show off my writing skills more and I like to write.

Speaker 8 But after talking to Vivian, even after our early pre-interview, but certainly after the full interview where I sat with her for a very long time over Zoom and a 14-hour time difference, I immediately was like, no, if I I write this out, it's going to be mostly dialogue anyway, because her voice, she's so voicey and it's so fun to keep it in that voice.

Speaker 23 She's a very, very distinctive voice. Yeah.

Speaker 24 Yeah. And so do you, Ella.
And so like, it's like, that's really the strength of the piece in so many ways is that like people come away with it.

Speaker 24 It doesn't feel like you're in the background or like hiding behind something when you're writing this piece. Like it very much feels like the success of it is because you are a part of it.

Speaker 24 And the New York Times reported that this was Ella's first freelance article. So I just wanted to add that, you know, Ella kind of did her, did her big one with her first article.

Speaker 7 Thanks.

Speaker 8 No, this is now everything I read for the next 15 years will be underwhelming.

Speaker 23 It's all downstream from here. Woo!

Speaker 8 It's not true. Baron Trump, I'm coming for you.

Speaker 23 You're going to re-enroll at NYU.

Speaker 8 Exactly. They'll never see me coming.

Speaker 23 I am waiting for him to get fixed by like a bisexual she they. It's got to happen, right?

Speaker 8 No, I don't think so i don't know obama was like into a bisexual she they and he's still yeah yeah bombed the middle east or whatever

Speaker 23 but no like like mainstream coverage is just completely failing trans people right now i i got so mad at a washington post article yesterday that i that i skeeted about it something i never do was it the sports one the girl playing a girl after after president donald trump banned transgender girls from competing in girls sports a virginia high schooler joins the boys team she wasn't gonna let the president's executive order stop her.

Speaker 23 Framed as like a feel-good story, fucking infuriating.

Speaker 24 And it's so like transparent. Like, and I, again, I feel like I keep bringing the cis into the space.
I'm really sorry. One of my like cis colleagues was like, this is disgusting.

Speaker 24 Why did they write this like a feel-good story? And it's like, my thing is, if like, if anyone with some amount of critical thinking skills can see exactly through what you're doing, why even do it?

Speaker 24 Like, it's so transparent, like the way that that story was written.

Speaker 20 Because it gets clicks.

Speaker 24 I mean, I guess we, you know, what got clicks was vivian so i actually don't know about that's true and say that and say that i did and i will do you want to talk about the length of the transcript because i am curious how long vivian talked for am i am i allowed to say that

Speaker 8 i think i'm legally not allowed to say can we explain why uh when we're not recording i can explain why okay I think I got to say most of what I want to say.

Speaker 8 I mean, I think Vivian's just like a delightful person, and I'm really excited for her that she gets her moment in the spotlight and that hopefully this like helps her build herself as a public figure outside of and away from elon musk and she has all of these aspirations to perform and model and i hope she gets to do her anna wintour drag um one day soon oh me too

Speaker 7 i love that movie it's a great movie um

Speaker 24 hi anna wintor lex do you want to plug your little outlet what's this it's teen vogue oh yeah i don't know if anyone's heard actually so frequently people haven't heard of it so it's actually fine.

Speaker 24 Yes, you can find us at teenvogue.com. We have no paywall.
We have a fact-checking department. Most of mainstream media is not doing it like us, if you consider those two points.
So, yeah.

Speaker 23 Labor politics, especially Teen Vogue's been phenomenal the past like eight years.

Speaker 24 Yep, so true. If you love Kim Kelly, she is our labor columnist.
So come through. I also do some of our labor coverage, but like definitely not to the extent Kim does.
Yeah, I'm on the things.

Speaker 24 I'm on the socials. Yeah, that's it.
That's all I had.

Speaker 23 Ella, where can people find you on the World Wide Web?

Speaker 8 I'm on Instagram and X the Everything app as Ella Yerman or Ella.yerman on Instagram.

Speaker 23 We're going to get you on Blue Sky one of these days. Blue Sky.
We can fix the vibes.

Speaker 8 I'm on Blue Sky. I just forget about it.

Speaker 8 Can we? I suffered through 2012 Tumblr once. I don't need to do it again.

Speaker 24 That is so not the vibe. I wish it were, but it's not.
Blue Sky.

Speaker 23 No, it's more 2019 Twitter.

Speaker 24 Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 8 You can also find my show at GoingDown TV on Instagram, going down the show on YouTube,

Speaker 8 going down show on Patreon. I don't know.
I make a transgender daily show. You guys know about it.

Speaker 23 New studio looks great.

Speaker 8 It's so fun. We got to get you on there.
We got to get you to come hang out. Hey, well,

Speaker 23 I will be in town shortly.

Speaker 8 So, hell yeah.

Speaker 24 Oh, fun. I go to the taping so I can crash.
That'll be fun. You should do it.

Speaker 4 Hell yeah. Okay.

Speaker 20 Are we? Did we do it?

Speaker 23 Yeah, we're done.

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Speaker 10 I turned off news altogether.

Speaker 11 I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

Speaker 12 It's the rage bait.

Speaker 13 It feels like it's trying to divide people.

Speaker 14 If we got clear clear facts.

Speaker 15 Maybe we can calm down a little.

Speaker 17 NBC News brings you clear reporting.

Speaker 18 Let's meet at the facts.

Speaker 19 Let's move forward from there.

Speaker 16 NBC News, reporting for America.

Speaker 7 Honestly, honestly.

Speaker 28 Honestly, no one wants to think about HIV, but there are things that everyone can do to help prevent it. Things like PrEP.

Speaker 29 PrEP stands for Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis, and it means routinely taking prescription medicine before you're exposed to HIV to help reduce your chances of getting it.

Speaker 34 Prep can be about 99% effective when taken as prescribed.

Speaker 35 It doesn't protect against other STIs though, so be sure to use condoms and other healthy sex practices.

Speaker 7 Ask a healthcare provider about all your prevention options and visit findoutaboutprep.com to learn more. Sponsored by Gilead.

Speaker 38 It's 1972.

Speaker 39 A young British family is attempting to sail around the world when disaster strikes.

Speaker 42 Their boat is hit by killer whales and it sinks in seconds.

Speaker 44 All they have left is a life raft and each other.

Speaker 47 This is the true story of the Robertson family and their fight to survive, hosted by me, Becky Milligan.

Speaker 46 Listen to Adrift, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House.

Speaker 51 Follow and listen on Apple podcasts.

Speaker 4 Hello, everybody. It could happen here here, and this is Robert Evans.

Speaker 4 We're a show about things falling apart, and boy howdy, they sure seem to be doing just that, as they always are, and have been for years.

Speaker 4 You know, in fact, anticipation of the end times, I think, is probably close to the number one hobby in the United States at this point.

Speaker 4 I suspect if you counted up the dollar value of all the collapse-themed movies, books, prepping gear, monetized social media content, and of course, religious sects in the country, the apocalypse would be one of our big industries.

Speaker 4 Doomsday prepping alone was an almost $1.2 billion business last year, and it's expected to more than double by 2030. Our popular fiction can't even imagine a better future right now.

Speaker 4 90% of modern future media takes place during or shortly after an apocalypse.

Speaker 4 The odd exception today, like Bong Jun-ho's recent Mickey 17, is so rooted in Trumpist politics that we only catch occasional glimpses of anything beyond it.

Speaker 4 In other words, in our fiction, there's no respite from the news.

Speaker 4 We watch a slow-motion, self-inflicted global economic collapse and then relax with shows about mushroom zombies or literal wage slaves created by mind control surgery.

Speaker 4 In other words, it's bleak out there.

Speaker 4 Tomorrow could be the day Trump invokes the Insurrection Act or uses the military to occupy Greenland or like one of a dozen equivalent horrors we all just know are coming in some form or another, even if no one can say when.

Speaker 4 And I'm not here today to tell you how we're going to get past all of that or fix it, because I don't know. So today, I'm just here as a a merchant of hope.

Speaker 4 My job is to convince you that our species will someday get past our bullshit and perhaps even lay claim to the stars. And no, Elon Musk isn't going to have anything to do with that.

Speaker 4 But in order to convince you of all this, I'm going to have to talk about a movie. It's called Roar.
And it is technically a 1981 comedy adventure film about an American naturalist.

Speaker 4 This guy lives on a nature preserve in Tanzania filled with big cats. His family comes to visit at the same time as a grant committee shows up to evaluate his project, which has an unclear goal.

Speaker 4 He's apparently just trying to prove people and giant cats from all over the world can live together, which the movie shows they can't. It's really immaterial what happens in the plot.

Speaker 4 All I can tell you is how Wikipedia describes it. I've watched this movie dozens of times and I have very little idea what it's supposed to be about.

Speaker 4 This is because in any given scene, the script is only ever a vague suggestion.

Speaker 4 As each scene starts with actors trying to read lines and evolves into those same actors trying to survive while being mauled by dozens of lions, tigers, and panthers.

Speaker 4 I should probably step back a minute to explain some things. Roar is largely the brainchild of Tippy Hedron and her husband Noel Marshall.

Speaker 4 If you're on the younger side, Tippy Hedron was the female lead in a little movie called The Birds. It is a horror film and also an early apocalypse flick by Alfred Hitchcock.

Speaker 4 It's often credited with inventing modern horror cinema.

Speaker 4 Hitchcock himself sexually and psychologically harassed Hedron, but his worst actions came during a crucial scene where Hedron was attacked by a flock of birds.

Speaker 4 Up to the day of filming, Hitchcock had assured Tippy the birds used in this scene would be animatronic, but when the time came to shoot it, she spent five days having hundreds of live birds hurled at her in huge numbers by the crew.

Speaker 4 Hedron later described it as brutal, ugly, and relentless. Carrie Grant, her co-star, told her she was the bravest woman he'd ever seen.

Speaker 4 Now, whatever other impacts this had on Tippy, she has no discernible fear of animals after this point in her life, though she really should. Her husband Noel is a bit more of a mystery to me.

Speaker 4 He was an agent, a producer, a film investor, and a serial entrepreneur whose best financial decision was putting money behind what became The Exorcist.

Speaker 4 In 1969, he and Hedron were in Mozambique while she starred in the film Satan's Harvest, about which less is said the better.

Speaker 4 This is only relevant because during their time in Africa, they observed a pride of lions lounging about an abandoned home, and this gave them an idea.

Speaker 4 They wanted to make a movie about poaching and conservation, something that could use the power of film to save these majestic creatures being threatened by humanity.

Speaker 4 All four of their children agreed to star in it and to help with production. But there were immediate snags.

Speaker 4 They wanted the film to be set in a big cat sanctuary, but actual lion tamers warned them that it was flat-out impossible to keep so many large felines together safely. This would eventually

Speaker 4 So a lot of these cats had never known the wild and they'd often been badly mistreated. Given that this was the 1970s, we must assume that some had been confiscated property of Coke dealers.

Speaker 4 Tippy and Noel had no professional or legal qualifications to care for dozens of big cats.

Speaker 4 When the authorities eventually found out, there was trouble, although since Hedred and Marshall were rich, they bought their way out of said trouble by purchasing a rural compound and having a house built specifically for they and their dozens of apex predators to live.

Speaker 4 While lions had inspired the initial vision, the compound in California soon filmed with big adopted cats of every kind.

Speaker 4 Tippy and her husband took them in and raised them among and around their own children, who came to see the animals as something between pets and family.

Speaker 4 When they actually started filming the movie that became Roar, making any kind of movie had become secondary to the act of caring for these many, many giant, traumatized kitties.

Speaker 4 As I noted earlier, the plot to Roar is kind of immaterial. I've never watched it with the sound on.

Speaker 4 I can tell you, though, that none of these cats were trained in any really meaningful way, which meant that every scene devolved into the same spectacle.

Speaker 4 The cast, surrounded by dozens of giant cats, stumble through a few lines before one or all of the cats begin to bite and claw them, at which point each scene becomes about surviving from one moment to the next.

Speaker 4 Roar took more than five years to film and more than a decade to actually make.

Speaker 4 No cats were harmed during the production of this movie, but more humans were injured than in any other film production on record.

Speaker 4 Of the 120 or so cast and crew on Roar, more than 100 suffered significant injury, often more than once. Jan Debont, the cinematographer, had his scalp ripped off by a lion, requiring 120 stitches.

Speaker 4 He went on to make Speed and Twister. Melanie Griffith, Tippy's daughter and a future star herself, left production at one point because she was worried a big cat might rip her face off.

Speaker 4 She ultimately returned and immediately had a large chunk of her face ripped off, requiring extensive surgery. This all sounds horrifying and impossible to justify.

Speaker 4 But before you make a final judgment, I want to remind you of two things.

Speaker 4 One, for all its horrors and severe injuries, fewer people were killed on the set of Roar than in Alec Baldwin's recent film Rust.

Speaker 4 The second thing that you must remember is that Roar is a work of art on the level of Moby Dick.

Speaker 4 If you watch it enough, among the right people and in the right headspace, you can come to a deeper understanding of every facet of human existence. I've taken a lot out of it over the years.

Speaker 4 Recently, it has convinced me that we will one day get over our bullshit and escape the present hell that our species seems mired in. I know that doesn't make much sense now, but give me some time.

Speaker 4 I'll explain why. But first, it's probably time for some ads.

Speaker 7 We're back.

Speaker 4 And the first thing I need you to understand about all of these fucking cats is that in every mauling caught on tape, and there are dozens of them, I see no anger or malice in the actions of these cats.

Speaker 4 I I don't even see hunger. It's clear to me, as a cat owner, that the cats didn't see these people, Tippy and her family and the cast and crew, as prey or as a threat.

Speaker 4 If anything, they saw them as fellow big cats, cousins and close kin, who they extend a kind of familiarity and perhaps even a kind of love that, since they are cats, is expressed primarily by batting at them with claws that hit like bowie knives embedded in the hood of a speeding Camry.

Speaker 4 If you have cats of your own, you understand.

Speaker 4 Now, given that nearly every every person on this film was badly injured, including Tippy, who got gangrene from infected cat wounds, and all of her children, you might feel inclined to judge her or Noel or both of them for risking their kids' lives to make this insane movie.

Speaker 4 I understand the impulse, but I believe it to be an error.

Speaker 4 The first thing you need to see to understand the deeper dynamics going on with Roar is a picture from a Playboy magazine photo shoot of Tippy's husband and co-star, Noel Marshall.

Speaker 4 He's in his office on his typewriter, and this fully grown male lion gets up on his desk because it wants attention. Again, normal cat behavior.

Speaker 4 Now, despite the best efforts of this animal, who has to weigh 500 pounds, Noel Marshall won't stop focusing on his work. And so the cat, inches away from his face, roars.

Speaker 4 The sound of a male lion's roar is deeply imprinted on all of us, an epigenetic memory passed down by the handful of our ancestors who heard the sound up close and lived to tell the tale.

Speaker 4 It has such a foundational impact on our mind that Metro-Goldwyn-Meyer, the film studio, used it to open every movie they made from 1928 on.

Speaker 4 I believe they did this because the sound is a sort of hack to compel our attention.

Speaker 4 It pulls an audience out of whatever state of mind dominates their outside lives and makes them more attentive to the film that is to come.

Speaker 4 And so the first thing you need to understand about the people who made Roar is that Marshall, upon having a living adult lion inches from his face roar, gives the creature a look that says, hey man, can you give me a second?

Speaker 4 I'm like, I'm in in the middle of something. I bring this up so that you will understand that these were not people operating on anything close to the same wavelength as you and I.

Speaker 4 Their lives and their choices are, to outsiders, inconceivable. There's another great photo from the set of that Playboy shoot.

Speaker 4 While the camera people roamed the Hedron compound, one of them caught a shot of Tippy's adolescent daughter, Melanie, jumping into a pool.

Speaker 4 An adult male lion, which she must have considered to be in some way a member of the family, sees this girl passing by in the corner of its eye, and that motion ignites an instinct inside it.

Speaker 4 So, like any cat of that size in the same situation, it reaches out to bite her.

Speaker 4 Afterwards, the Hedron family and the cast and crew had complicated feelings about what happened that extended to the present day.

Speaker 4 Tippy divorced Marshall almost as soon as the filming finally wrapped. She has alleged that while Roar was being made, he utterly ignored her well-being.

Speaker 4 She also does not seem to have ever seriously considered leaving. She later wrote that she, quote, was into it every bit as much as he was, and that production was an obsessive, addictive drama.

Speaker 4 John Mitchell, Noel's son, who acted in the movie and like everyone else was mauled repeatedly, came to own the rights to roar when his dad died in 2010.

Speaker 4 Dad was a fucking asshole to do that to his family, he said recently. He also said this, it was amazing to live through that.
I should have died many times, but I kind of want to do it again.

Speaker 4 If you have any friends or family who have survived extended periods of heavy combat, there's a good chance they may have expressed a variation of the same feeling.

Speaker 4 This is because trauma is sometimes a drug. Taking it can be more than just hell.
It's often also a high, which is one thing that drives a lot of people crazy.

Speaker 4 I need to take a moment, away from Roar, to talk about some people that I met in 2017 in Iraq during the desperate and ferocious urban combat against ISIS.

Speaker 4 The closer I drew to the front, the more guys I met who were elite veterans of the Iraqi Special Forces. They did the bulk of the fighting.

Speaker 4 These were mostly young men, ranging ranging from the tail end of their teens to their twenties.

Speaker 4 Many had grown up in places like Fallujah, fighting from the time they were seven or eight, sometimes younger. They'd been born into the U.S.
occupation in many cases.

Speaker 4 Their earliest memories were as runners, ferrying supplies and information to the older men and teenage boys who did most of the fighting.

Speaker 4 When the opportunity presented itself, they sometimes dropped grenades or improvised explosive devices on U.S. troops, most of whom were teenagers themselves.

Speaker 4 Now, they fought against ISIS in close quarters, building to building a few weeks at a time. Periodically, they'd rotate off the front and would go to Erbil, an hour or two away.

Speaker 4 Many of them were gangsters in their spare time, running drugs and guns and brothels.

Speaker 4 They spent their days off in a drunken haze of Turkish amphetamines, then they would drive back to the front in new, brightly colored mustangs and dodged chargers, the trunks full to bursting with so many machine guns and rocket launchers they could only be closed with bungee cords.

Speaker 4 The guns and rockets were useful at a distance to soften up enemy positions in the impossibly dense, warren-like urban environment of Mosul's old city.

Speaker 4 In every building, on every block, the fighting terminated with door-to-door, room-to-room battles, where the most useful weapons were hand grenades, combat knives, and pistols, in that order.

Speaker 4 I don't know if any of these guys were at that point that I met them, capable of feeling what you or I would recognize as fear.

Speaker 4 These were the men and boys whose bodies formed the cutting edge of the fighting against ISIS and Mosul.

Speaker 4 On occasion, when they kidnapped ISIS fighters, some of them committed war crimes with the ease and with as much thought as you and I give to breathing.

Speaker 4 This is bad, of course, unforgivable, but I've never really given much thought to judging them for it. Where would I even start?

Speaker 4 A thing I've come to understand in my travels is that human beings are capable of contorting themselves into the most incredible shapes in order to fit into the times they're forced to live in.

Speaker 4 This has been the story of our entire long journey on this earth, and if there is one reason our species has survived above all the others, it is our capacity for infinite variety in infinite contexts.

Speaker 4 We can make ourselves into anything if we're given the right incentives, and to an extent you can't judge individual humans without judging the incentives the world we collectively create presents for them.

Speaker 4 We evolved and we still live in a world where trauma and pain are inevitable, and those of us who survive the worst things that life can throw at us tend to become addicted, sometimes to the cause of the trauma, but nearly always to the people we experience it with.

Speaker 4 This is why the cast and crew of Roar often reported feeling almost addicted to spending time among these gigantic predators, and it's why many kept coming back despite being repeatedly maimed.

Speaker 4 Roar happened because the core cast and crew exhibited radical empathy for roughly 140 large cats and for each other, and almost exercised zero critical judgment beyond that point.

Speaker 4 Now I will understand if you still feel that nothing could justify the decision of two parents to risk their children's lives in such folly.

Speaker 4 And I know this essay is supposed to be my ultimate enduring optimism about mankind's potential, and I'm going to get to that, but, you know, we still live in 2025, so first, here's Ads.

Speaker 4 So here's my best step at explaining why I find Roar inspirational.

Speaker 4 There's a scene about three quarters of the way through this movie, after roughly an hour straight of watching the Hedron Marshall family and their friends get repeatedly mauled for real by giant cats.

Speaker 4 And in this scene, John Marshall finds a dirt bike and engineers a scenario that I am certain has never happened before or since in the history of this planet.

Speaker 4 He rides away from the home where his family is trapped and draws several dozen lions, panthers, and tigers away by making them chase him.

Speaker 4 The cats assume this is a game and repeatedly try to murder or maim him. But he continues, building up speed in an ever greater tale of the most lethal killing machines to evolve on this planet.

Speaker 4 You can see from the look in John's eyes in this scene that he has no idea if he's seconds away from death. It would have been physically impossible to stop or control this number of giant cats.

Speaker 4 The only reason this number and variety of lions, panthers, and tigers would ever have existed together at any previous point in world history would have been across a distance of thousands of miles of rugged wilderness.

Speaker 4 But thanks to Tippy and Knoll's insane dream, and thanks to the deranged and utterly unjustifiable commitment of many of the crew and their family, a moment of utter novelty occurs, where this singular assortment of big cats watches as a man fleeing in terror from them on a dirt bike does one of the sickest jumps in film history and lands directly into a river, and then keeps riding until he is charged by a juvenile African elephant, which the Edrons also kept on their property.

Speaker 4 In its uniqueness, This moment has to rival, if not exceed, the moon landing.

Speaker 4 After all, considerably more men have stepped foot on the moon than have achieved what John Marshall does in this scene, although some of that may be due to the fact that it is extremely illegal for anyone today to even try.

Speaker 4 And this is why I encourage you to watch Roar, my dear friends, during the dark times, not because it's a good movie, but because it reveals what is best about humanity.

Speaker 4 What piece of art could better illustrate the infinite possibilities within us?

Speaker 4 If a group of human beings can learn to live among lions and tigers, despite the constant guarantee of severe injury, without really understanding why.

Speaker 4 Is it so mad to think that perhaps we too can transcend the barbarities of our age and become something better, or at least something far stranger than money-grubbing fascists?

Speaker 4 I don't know how we escape the darkness that seems to encroach a bit further with each passing day, but I do know this. If we can make war, we can do anything.

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Speaker 10 I turned off news altogether.

Speaker 11 I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

Speaker 12 It's the rage bait.

Speaker 13 It feels like it's trying to divide people.

Speaker 14 We got clear facts, maybe we could calm down a little.

Speaker 17 NBC News brings you clear reporting.

Speaker 18 Let's meet at the facts.

Speaker 19 Let's move forward from there.

Speaker 17 NBC News, reporting for America.

Speaker 7 Honestly, honestly.

Speaker 28 Honestly, no one wants to think about HIV, but there are things that everyone can do to help prevent it. Things like PrEP.

Speaker 29 PrEP stands for Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis, and it means routinely taking prescription medicine before you're exposed to HIV to help reduce your chances of getting it.

Speaker 34 PrEP can be about 99% effective when taken as prescribed.

Speaker 35 It doesn't protect against other STIs though, though, so be sure to use condoms and other healthy sex practices.

Speaker 7 Ask a healthcare provider about all your prevention options and visit findoutaboutprep.com to learn more. Sponsored by Gilead.

Speaker 38 It's 1972.

Speaker 39 A young British family is attempting to sail around the world when disaster strikes.

Speaker 42 Their boat is hit by killer whales and it sinks in seconds.

Speaker 44 All they have left is a life raft and each other.

Speaker 47 This is the true story of the Robertson family and their fight to survive, hosted by me, Becky Milligan.

Speaker 46 Listen to Adrift, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House.

Speaker 51 Follow and listen on Apple podcasts.

Speaker 20 Welcome to ICAP Here, a podcast, where here is the rapidly encroaching rise of fascism. My name is Mia Wong.

Speaker 20 And one of the major vectors of fascism that we have been covering on this show has been the increase in just effectively straight up black baggings by ICE and immigration's enforcement in general.

Speaker 20 We have spent a good amount of time covering a bunch of different angles of this, but there is another incredibly distressing angle that we have not covered as much yet, which is their targeting of labor organizers.

Speaker 20 And with me to talk about that is Mark Medina from Portland Jobs with Justice and the Coalition of Independent Unions.

Speaker 7 And yeah, Mark, welcome to the show.

Speaker 22 Hi, thanks for having me.

Speaker 20 Yeah, I'm glad to have you on. So one of the most pressing sort of black baggings that's happened fairly recently is ISIS kidnapping of Alfredo Juarez Yefarino, otherwise known as Laylo.

Speaker 20 Can you tell us about sort of his work and the projects that he's been doing and Familas Unidas Por la Justicia?

Speaker 22 Yeah, so it's been a very disheartening and scary couple of weeks since this happened because this opens up a new path for the state to go after organizers, to go after workers and the most underprivileged in our society in a way that I suppose we all expected.

Speaker 22 But now that we see it, now that we see it happening, now that we see it happening to people that we know in our community,

Speaker 22 it's becoming apparent that there is no turning back from the idea that we have to be able to take this on headfirst.

Speaker 22 We as activists, as organizers, have to look at this and see it as an actual thing in our day-to-day that we have to combat and incorporate into our organizing.

Speaker 22 So maybe it might be a little helpful to start off with a little bit of a backstory on Flavinges and I'm Lucisa.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 22 So the union has its origins going back to 2013. The area in which they organized, the Bellingham, Northern Washington, Wacomskagit areas, has a very particular type of immigrant community there.

Speaker 22 Lelo himself is of Mexico background. There's a lot of indigenous Mexican populations in the region.

Speaker 22 It's also one that has long roots. A lot of these people go back generations, have been here for quite some time.

Speaker 22 This area also happens to be a very particularly with the non-Hispanic population, particularly the white population, a very conservative, particularly conservative for the area.

Speaker 22 It's one of the very few areas in the Pacific Northwest that Donald Trump came to visit. It's an area that has had repeated attacks on the immigrant community.

Speaker 22 And so it's in this context that workers are organizing in 2013 for this first independent union. And two, it's important to mention the independent part of it.

Speaker 22 A lot of the organizers from the start of this, of the union, came from a tradition of the United Farm Workers in California.

Speaker 22 Some of them worked with Cesar Chavez in the heyday of the United Farm Workers.

Speaker 22 And in the years and decades since then, since the Delano boycotts and other things, there's been a growing rift of what the next next steps should be.

Speaker 22 And I think that for a lot of farm workers, because they don't organize under the general labor law that we have for most workers, there is a sort of patchwork system for how farm working organizing happens in the United States that's dependent upon different states and legislatures.

Speaker 22 And for the most part, with the exception of only two states, farm workers don't have the same kind of protections that regular workers generally in the society have for union recognition for collective bargaining.

Speaker 22 Only Washington and New York at the moment, I believe, have laws that allow for elections for farm worker unions. And there's a very particular reason for that being the case.

Speaker 22 Farm workers were excluded from the Wagner Act for having general labor rights in the 1930s because precisely it was seen as immigrant labor.

Speaker 22 And immigrants were not seen as meriting the same rights. as white Americans in the same way that domestic workers were removed because that was seen at the time as black labor.

Speaker 22 So it has its roots in racism.

Speaker 20 And yeah, and that's something that, you know, like you, you can tie that exclusion, like there's a straight line between that and Japanese internment, which also to a large extent is just about land seizure and this sort of like fusion of racism, specifically racism in the farming sector, with tax and labor rights and with this desire to just sort of seize literally the land and labor from non-white people.

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 20 Yeah. So it's a long and bleak history.

Speaker 22 No, absolutely. And I'm sure your audience is well aware of a lot of these subject matters.
It is a bleak history. And

Speaker 22 it wasn't until groups like the United Farm Workers in the 60s and the 70s that they began to create the possibility for something new for the Hispanic community.

Speaker 22 It was the United Farm Workers that built not just a lot of solidarity with other immigrant groups in the California area, but they also built a sense of pride and identity and belonging for a lot of communities.

Speaker 22 I grew up in Borough Heights, East Los Angeles. Sesame Chavez and the United Farm Worker murals are everywhere.

Speaker 22 You know, me and my friends would often joke that Cesar Chavez is like the patron saint of East Los Angeles, even though it's nowhere near Delano.

Speaker 7 And there's a reason for that.

Speaker 22 I think that a lot of us looked up to the United Farm Workers. We looked up to the farm worker union movement and we saw in them our heroes, our modern-day heroes.

Speaker 22 We saw them, we saw people who said, be proud to be brown. You know, there's a courage that comes from that history.

Speaker 22 The union movement that then sprung up in 2013 in the Bellingham, Northern Washington area, was coming out of that milieu. They understood that background.

Speaker 22 They understood that history, but they also understood that there was very little organizing in the region. There was a lot of fear in the region.
It's very difficult to organize farm workers.

Speaker 22 To have access to a lot of these areas, you have to cross just private property for quite some time before you reach the first farm worker.

Speaker 22 And it becomes very, very difficult to have organizing happen. And it's intentional that way.

Speaker 22 The rise rise in farm worker unions that happened in the 60s and 70s had a massive plummet by the time that we get into the 90s and 2000s.

Speaker 22 And so these workers had heard these stories, had heard about this legacy, but had been essentially dealing with increasing frustration, racist behavior by bosses, lower and lower pay, and the use of certain types of immigrants to try to scab their jobs.

Speaker 22 It'd be the capitalist class using one type of worker against another type of worker, pitting them against each other.

Speaker 22 It's in this context in 2013 that this union starts to form. They go public in that time period.
They call for recognition and they start taking action directly.

Speaker 22 And they organize this years and years long boycott campaign to gain recognition, to get the employer to start bargaining.

Speaker 22 And after years and years of this and court battles and the employer trying to lay everyone off and hire certain types of newer immigrants coming in to replace all of them, pitting one worker against another, all these types of maneuvers.

Speaker 22 By 2017, these workers win a contract. And the philosophy of the union since then has been not just to grow this union, but also for them to be able to stand on their own two feet.

Speaker 22 Their idea is that they are very proud of their independent nature of that union. They're not part of, you know, the AFL-CIO.
They're not part of the United Farm Workers.

Speaker 22 They're not part of any other organization.

Speaker 22 You know, when I spoke to some of their leaders last year, one of the things that came to mind was they brought up a quote from Eugene Depps, the notion of like, if we were to lead you into the promised land, someone else would just lead you out.

Speaker 22 And the notion of their union is, we have to be able to stand on our two feet. We can't rely on anyone else because if they promise us things today, tomorrow they'll hold something over us.

Speaker 22 And so the notion that farm workers lead this movement and lead this union is an incredibly powerful statement. of what working class people can do.

Speaker 22 The kinds of workers that everyone else kinds of looks at, they could could never do it.

Speaker 22 These, you know, these workers could never handle this kind of level of struggle and couldn't do this kind of organization, have built one of the most powerful independent farm worker unions in the West Coast.

Speaker 22 Lelo, Alfredo Lelo Juarez, was a founding member of this union.

Speaker 22 He was a farm worker starting at the age of 12, and since then devoted his entire life to organizing, to helping workers, to being the kind of person who commits himself to the work of making the world a better place than he found it.

Speaker 22 You know, at 25, he is significantly younger than me. And when I think of people who I look up to, who I think of, wow, when I grow up, I want to be someone like that, I think of Lelo.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 22 I have met Lelo many a times over the years. He's a very soft-spoken, very thoughtful type of person.
And yeah, I think that the labor movement owes him a bit of a debt now.

Speaker 22 It is time that we as a whole stand up for him.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 20 Yeah, we are going to go to ads, regrettably, and then when we come back, we are going to start talking, i think a bit more about the repression

Speaker 20 we are back so obviously then this is this is a part of the story that you've been telling

Speaker 20 the sort the sort of capitalist class out in bellingham and you know the sort of i mean this has been true of the broader capitalist class since this kind of organizing starting like has been trying to break these unions this entire time you know that that has been a major focus of everything that they've been doing.

Speaker 20 And, you know, what we're seeing right now seems like a massive sort of escalation in the degree of repression. So yeah, can we talk about the recent blackbagging of Laylo and

Speaker 20 yeah, and sort of what happened and where we go from there?

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 22 The weaponization of the state to go after immigrants, go after activists is, I'm sure to your audience is well known, is nothing new. And it knows party affiliation.

Speaker 22 The Democratic administrations have been doing this to immigrant communities and have been using it to silence political activists.

Speaker 22 The Trump administration, however, is now doing this on a level that is,

Speaker 22 at least to a lot of us, unheard of in the modern day, which is to go after specific union leaders in the labor movement, to go after civil rights leaders.

Speaker 22 You've seen this happen also when it comes to Palestinian rights activists around the country.

Speaker 22 The idea is pretty simple, to silence the loudest voices, to cut the leadership from the movement.

Speaker 22 On March 25th, Alfredo Lelo Juarez was dropping off his girlfriend at a nearby farm for work and was accosted by ICE agents as he was exercising his rights or what he thought his rights were at the time.

Speaker 22 because of the regime. Who knows what your rights are?

Speaker 22 They broke his window. They dragged him out of his car.

Speaker 22 You know, this was obviously a very traumatic incident, but also it was a real shock to the union, to C2C, the community group that works with the union, and to the local Hispanic community in the area.

Speaker 22 Within hours of that, workers, organizers, community went to move to try to carry a response, knowing that time was of the essence.

Speaker 22 He was then taken to a localized facility. He's now since been moved to a detention center in Tacoma, Washington.

Speaker 22 A large rally of hundreds took place calling for his immediate release.

Speaker 22 What we know now, seemingly, is that at the very last minute, apologies, I forget the exact day, but it was within a couple of days of the kidnapping, Lelo was pulled off.

Speaker 22 He has an automatic stay of deportation in place. At this point, uh no longer has any legal authority to remove Lelo.

Speaker 22 This came at the last minute. He was in line for deportation and was removed at the very last minute.
However, while this is good news, this is not good for someone's personal health and well-being.

Speaker 22 These are massively cramped facilities, underfunded facilities. You know, there are horror stories around the country of the conditions in some of these places.

Speaker 22 Every day that Lelo is stuck behind these prison walls is an injustice to our movement. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 20 The thing it immediately reminds me of is the story of Thomas Paine, who was like slated to be executed in the French Revolution. And

Speaker 20 they didn't execute him because his door was open. So they didn't see the slash line on the cell that was supposed to execute him.

Speaker 20 And then the next day, the reign of terror ended with the coup against the Jacobins. It reminds me a lot of that.
But, you know, but on the other hand, here's the thing.

Speaker 20 We have gotten the stay of the deportation, but

Speaker 7 we have not brought down the reign of terror yet.

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 20 And I would hope this is have to wait four more years for that one yeah good lord good lord yeah yeah yeah yeah so let's let's talk a bit about so i mean obviously you know what what we're seeing here and this is this is you know the the connection that you made is we're we're seeing just on a sort of broad scale the use of the state and of this sort of black bagging and of these deportations as a way to target organizers from palestine to labor organizers that's only going to expand as this goes on.

Speaker 20 And I think something critical about, you know, one of the first things you were saying here about the fact that they're targeting sort of the loudest voices in the community.

Speaker 20 And I think a big part of this is that they know that their position isn't as strong as they're making it out to be, right? Like they have just detonated a nuke across the entire economy.

Speaker 20 They are systemically going through and individually fucking over every single group of people who's supposed to be their base.

Speaker 20 And I think part of what they're doing is they're trying to spread sort of raw terror and spread fear and you know and and attack the critical infrastructure of organizing because they want to make it look like resisting them is impossible yeah

Speaker 22 and that's just not true they can be yeah absolutely i think that oftentimes particularly fascistic power wants and needs to present itself as inevitable as overwhelming and impossible to defeat yeah yeah in part because it's meant to hide the ultimate weakness of some of these powers yeah the actual power that these farm workers showed against the Sukuma farms when they went on strike and boycotted for years and years and years out in the fields, talking to workers for years and years and years, it showed that no matter how powerful some of these companies are, some of these CEOs are, that the power of workers overwhelms and the power of solidarity overwhelms.

Speaker 22 And they know that going after leadership, going after some of the most, some of the bravest people in our movement is a way of trying to hit the movement at the knees and trying to convince folks that struggle is impossible.

Speaker 22 But I think it is important to remember that what we're doing, the struggle now, the response, this is how we show the population, the world, you know, our communities, that they are not inevitable.

Speaker 22 It is not insurmountable.

Speaker 22 And so by taking action, responding to the kinds of fascistic behaviors of the state, we show how feeble the state can be at times, even when it seems it's most treacherous and awful.

Speaker 20 Yeah. And I think a lot of times when we win fights, it can be very, very hard to actually see our victory because we don't see the world that could have been if we didn't fight.

Speaker 20 And that's the thing I think about what the first Trump administration were. During the first Trump administration, they absolutely wanted to be doing this kind of shit.

Speaker 20 And they were able to do a lot of terrible stuff, but they weren't able to sort of go this far because of the kind of mass mobilizations that shut down a lot of the kinds of things that they wanted to do.

Speaker 20 And I think that's a kind of victory that is hard to kind of like process because all all we see is you know the suffering that did happen and we we we can never see

Speaker 20 an image of like all of the people you know who who got to continue living their lives because we stopped them

Speaker 20 and that i think is another sort of powerful tool here but also we do have an opportunity to make sure that we can beat them right here and right now in a way that's very, very public and visible.

Speaker 22 And there's a question, Mark, about that in my mind because you know my entire adult life i've heard stories of the state repression against union organizers in the 20s and the 30s and the 40s you hear the stories if you're an organizer about all the violent eras and and how hard it was in the past and we forget that a lot of that does continue on it's just not where you would imagine it where a lot of american workers imagine it and so they don't see it in their shops and their factories and their unions

Speaker 22 but this right here is an attack on the labor movement.

Speaker 22 Had this been the head of, you know, the electricians union, the head of the SCIU, had this been an attack on what a lot of Americans would view as the mainstream labor movement, this would be headlines.

Speaker 22 The fact that it isn't shows and that it has been so much work to try to get attention to a union leader being picked up and kidnapped by the state. should be

Speaker 22 a blaring red light on the labor movement to take action immediately.

Speaker 22 I hope that what we're doing is the first steps of that, because

Speaker 22 this is one of those moments.

Speaker 22 They went after the trade unions, unionists, and I was not a trade unionist. Well, they're going after the farm workers.
I am not a farm worker.

Speaker 22 It is incumbent upon us morally to stand up for one another at this point in time.

Speaker 20 Yeah. And I think there's been a real kind of

Speaker 20 real cowardice and a real sort of appeasement of power and a real sort of demonstration of where a lot of these unions politics are. I mean,

Speaker 20 we saw the way that the Teamsters

Speaker 20 leadership just, I mean, just, you know, openly went to speak at the RNC, right?

Speaker 20 We've been seeing the UAW, which traditionally has had better immigration politics in the last few years than a lot of these other sort of mainstream unions, but has also been sort of going to bat for Trump's tariff.

Speaker 20 I've been calling them the turf tariffs, tariffs, because they're the wages of transphobia, but you know, they've been going to bat for like the turf tariffs, right?

Speaker 20 And that I think is like part of why they've been sort of unable to like respond to this moment and why they've been unable to respond to the past fucking 50 years of moments, which is that like if you're, if, if you're sort of like labor politics is rooted in this sort of like American nationalist, like American jobs for American workers stuff, right?

Speaker 20 And it's not actually based in the power of workers and the power of workers everywhere, then you're going to lose.

Speaker 20 It's not, it's not just sort of reactionary politics, although it is, it's also bad politics and we're seeing it right now.

Speaker 22 Yeah. And I think that the history of the labor movement has been an interesting one in my adult life because, you know, I'm as pro-labor as they come.

Speaker 22 However, the history of the labor movement in the modern day has been a fascinating one. It is one that, when it came to large strikes, was at its nadir at the mid and late 2000s.

Speaker 22 I think at one point it was just over a dozen strikes over 2,000 workers. And you compare that to the height of the labor movement in the 40s and the 50s when it was in the hundreds.

Speaker 22 and you had strike actions all the time. And that is what built so much of what we call the middle class for some.
And it was this really historic moment at the time.

Speaker 22 And we're in a historic moment now where I think the labor movement for so long from that point has been trying, workers from the rank and file have been trying to kind of reshape the labor movement in the thoughts and the ideas of the new.

Speaker 22 But it comes with its own regressive setbacks and it comes with its own shortcomings of leadership.

Speaker 22 You know, the Teensters making statements around immigration rights was a very unfortunate thing to be said in the modern day, in the modern context yeah i think that you know other unions seemingly looking to you know uh circle the wagons rather than take the risks that need that need to happen uh in this current time has really shown a lack of imagination from some of the mainstream unions and the thing is i hope for the best for them i want them to succeed and i want them to get better because the world is a better place for having these larger unions however it's the independent movements the independent unions like families Unidas, Pora Usticia, like these other unions in the region, that can be the kind of canary in the coal mine, the kind of labs of experimentation that can be the first people out to do some of the most radical and interesting and worker-centric type of movement building and messaging.

Speaker 22 Like, I think there is a reason why it was the Coalition of Independent Unions here in the Pacific Northwest that came up with the notion of having Trans Day of Solidarity, this idea of patterning contracts together to have inclusive and protections for

Speaker 22 trans workers and having that be a thing that unions take up together.

Speaker 22 I think that it's incredibly notable that it's groups like Familos Unidas, Poelos Dicía, that carried out this long, years-long boycott and created a model by which other workers in the region can not just organize themselves, but organize themselves on a low-cost, member-led, democratic model.

Speaker 22 I think it's important to see that sometimes the large unions have to start looking at some of the radical pragmatism that comes from the necessities of these smaller independent campaigns.

Speaker 20 Yeah.

Speaker 20 And I mean, before we go to ads, I think the last thing I want to say there is like, you know, the other option they have is to do the option of what the unions did during the rise of the Nazis, which is like during the rise of the Nazis, the unions fell in line, right?

Speaker 20 They fell in line because they were scared and they thought that they could fucking win benefits from it. And, you know, it saved some of them.

Speaker 20 Like there were a few of those people like just became Nazis, but the rest of them got fucking liquidated anyways. So those are your options.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 20 You either stand and fight now with the independent unions or you become part of the regime and eventually get liquidated when

Speaker 20 Trump in like fucking two and a half years signs executive order that says unions are illegal or whatever.

Speaker 22 Yeah. And what does that do at the end of the day? Even if it saves you, even if you're the head of some of these like larger unions, and by working with the administrative, the administration today,

Speaker 22 by selling your soul, by selling the movement out, you give up the moral high ground of our movement, of our working class democratic movement.

Speaker 22 You give it up for another generation. Then when workers, when people like myself growing up looking at images of the United Farm Workers, there are similar,

Speaker 22 I presume there are similar people in the United States growing up who look that way up to the United Auto Workers, who look that way up to the teachers union.

Speaker 22 What happens to those children, to those kids, to those young people who want to be the next leadership, the next era of the labor movement? They will not look at us as having the moral high ground.

Speaker 22 We give that up. We give our role in history, our moral role in history to fight for the working class when we do things like this.

Speaker 20 Yeah. And what you become instead is just another extension of the state.
You become like one of the national syndicates in like Francoist Spain.

Speaker 20 And what that does to you is people don't look at you in a generation as a labor movement. They look at you as just another arm of a fascist regime.

Speaker 20 And it doesn't have to be like that. It really doesn't.

Speaker 22 Yeah, no, it does not. I take no pleasure in saying this, you know, I take no pleasure in saying this.
But it's an unfortunate reality. And hopefully, the turnaround can come from anywhere.

Speaker 22 It can come from unexpected places. And I hope that there is one.

Speaker 22 And things like solidarity for Lelo, I hope, can be a small link in the chain that moves the pendulum right back into the direction of an ethical and moral superiority that comes with fighting for working class folks.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 20 We're going to take an ad break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about what we can do for Lilo right now,

Speaker 20 as you are listening to this.

Speaker 7 We are back.

Speaker 20 So let's talk about both the operation, I mean, just immediately the plans to sort of put pressure to free Lilo, and also then, I guess, we'll get into sort of more broadly the kinds of fighting that we need to be doing in order to resist this.

Speaker 22 Sure, sounds good.

Speaker 22 So, like I mentioned earlier, in the immediate aftermath of Lelo's kidnapping by ICE, workers in the region began organizing and unions came together and supported Lelo and helped a rally in front of the detention center in Tacoma.

Speaker 22 Now, what we're trying to do is trying to spread the word further. There are other communities, particularly here on the West Coast, that can stand solidarity.
that should stand in solidarity.

Speaker 22 And when we heard this news go down, activists within the CIU asked themselves, we can't stand idly by while a leader in our movement is kidnapped by the state. We need to take action.
And so we did.

Speaker 22 And the point was to move as quickly as possible, to try to build a larger voice for Lelo while he is in detention. So there is a good number of activists here in the Portland area.

Speaker 22 We can be of service to the Farm Workers Union. You know, we have a strong core of independent unions here in the Pacific Northwest, particularly in the Portland area.

Speaker 22 We can do what other unions are hesitant to do, which is take action immediately and stand firmly with our brothers and sisters at Manosi de Manas up in Northern Washington.

Speaker 22 So what's happening is the call from the union is workers individually, for people individually to call into the Attorney General in Washington State and call to the release of Lelo.

Speaker 22 Also calling the new governor up in Washington State.

Speaker 22 to call for the release, bring a wider attention, making known that this person is someone who is important to the community, cannot be spirited away to another country where they are not from, where that is not their home, and taken away from their family, the community, and from the good work that they do.

Speaker 22 And the other thing that we're trying to do is we're trying to get local officials to also use their voice to maximize the pressure to give more attention to this issue. So that's the call so far.

Speaker 22 This rally that we're having in front of City Hall on Saturday, April 12th at 2 p.m.

Speaker 22 is the beginning of what we hope is a larger campaign that will not end until Lello is free and until these raids stop attacking the labor movement in the Pacific Northwest.

Speaker 22 You know, just because we in Portland, you know, are not farm workers, because we don't work with farm workers, because a lot of the workers who

Speaker 22 work here had maybe never met a farm worker. It does not mean that we should not stand shoulder to shoulder and arm in arm and support the farm workers union up in northern Washington to the hilt.

Speaker 22 And this begins this fight of building that kind of level of solidarity.

Speaker 22 It begins by showing up for them. They're doing what they can do.

Speaker 22 Right now, they don't have the resources to go state by state and city by city to bring attention and awareness to one of their leaders being attacked. But we can do it.

Speaker 22 And if we can do it, we should do it. It's a moral imperative that Lillo be free.

Speaker 20 Yeah. And so, I mean, statistically, there are a lot of you in Portland listening to the show, but statistically, most of you are not in Portland.

Speaker 20 Are there things that people in the rest of the country, and I guess the rest of the world, I know, I know there's

Speaker 20 so some of you statistically don't live in the U.S.

Speaker 20 Yeah, are there things that people in other places can do to put pressure specifically for Layla, but also just can do in their own communities to, you know, I mean, put pressure to stop these raids?

Speaker 22 Yes, absolutely. So this is very similar, I think, to the CIU, the Coalition of Independent Unions, this Coalition of Independent Unions here in the Pacific Northwest.

Speaker 22 It was trying to do and is trying to do with Transio Solidarity. The idea is we are trying to make this work here in the Pacific Northwest.

Speaker 22 And if it's useful, if it's good, if people are paying attention to it, then we can export this to other cities and other areas to bring more attention to these causes.

Speaker 22 And so, with that, when patterning

Speaker 22 ironing contracts together, particularly on this one issue of transgender health care and trans-inclusive languaging contracts and codifying that between unions and having that a demand of labor movement that they not walk away from this, we want to also do the same thing with this fight for freedom for the farm workers union and their leaders and workers everywhere.

Speaker 22 And the attacks that will come

Speaker 22 sooner enough, I suppose,

Speaker 22 I would imagine, from this regime in Washington.

Speaker 22 If this works, we want workers in other cities to start assisting the farm worker union, taking up the call of action and fighting for not just Leto, but whoever comes afterwards, because there will be littles in the future, unfortunate as it may be.

Speaker 20 So, if this works here, if workers hear as they hear more updates, we would hope and we would love if workers elsewhere, if organizing groups elsewhere, would want to take up this fight and bring attention to the cause hell yeah yeah and i think there is a lot of you know potential in sort of mobilizations there's a lot of potential in getting people to understand that this stuff is happening and there's a lot of potential in cross-union organizing and also and i will say this too because like you know obviously statistically like there there are a large number of people listening to this who are like union staffers but also like most of you are not.

Speaker 20 That also doesn't mean that whatever kind of organizing that you're doing doesn't overlap with this and doesn't have capacity that they can bring to bear to stop the entire deportation regime that we're facing right now.

Speaker 20 And that's something that you have to do, both on the level of solidarity, on a moral level, and also on a strategic level, because again, it's going to go for you too.

Speaker 7 So,

Speaker 22 yeah.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 22 You know, without making it too personal, like, I know Lilo personally. I have met Lilo many a times over the years.
He's a fantastic

Speaker 22 person. The reason why a lot of us as organizers, why we do this kind of work to begin with, is because we believe,

Speaker 22 as bizarrely as it may be, that we can be a link in the chain that makes the world a better place, that we can leave the world better off than we found it.

Speaker 22 And we also believe in what we're doing because when we look at people who have been attacked by corporations and attacked by the state, we feel a moral compulsion to help.

Speaker 22 And what I would say to folks who are outside of Portland, who are hearing this story, who hear the calls to call the Attorney General in Washington State and demand that Lillo be released to follow up with the union, Flamidias Núndes Polo Usticia, further direction on how they can assist and potentially holding their own rallies and support and solidarity and bringing attention to the issue.

Speaker 22 I would hope that they do this. Imagine if Lelo were your brother.

Speaker 22 Imagine if Lillo were your cousin.

Speaker 22 your father, your friend, act as if they were them, because it required that level of empathy to have the kind of solidarity that we need in order to fight this fascist regime and everything that it does.

Speaker 22 It is easy to say, I will wait for someone else to do the work. I will, someone else will come along and it'll get resolved that way.
No, if you don't do the work, it just will not get done.

Speaker 22 And so, we have to go in every day as part of civic engagement and assisting the working class as part of our daily routines and using

Speaker 22 the kind of sense of moral necessity and of immediate action it requires that you would do for someone that was close to you. Because this person is you just by another name.

Speaker 22 This person is your family, even if you've never met them. We are all in this together as working class people.

Speaker 22 And if we start coming up with boundaries and reasons for why we shouldn't stand up for one another, those reasons then become excuses for everyone else.

Speaker 22 So I would hope that when people hear this, they look and see the struggle of this person and they can imagine what would happen to them in the future future.

Speaker 22 And they say, I would want someone there for me in my corner in my time of need. So I will be there for them and theirs.

Speaker 20 Yeah, it reminds me a lot of this line from Peggy Seeger, who

Speaker 20 wrote an anti-fascist song called Song of Choice. And one of the verses that's always stuck with me is,

Speaker 20 today the soldiers took away one. Tomorrow they may take away two.
One April they took away Greece. but surely they will never take you

Speaker 20 and

Speaker 20 you know i mean that's that's the thing that people in the 30s woke up to, right?

Speaker 20 Is, you know, if you're in this country, then this is the thing that you're waking up to now is that, yeah, the soldiers are taking people away. And every day they're taking away more and more people.

Speaker 20 And one day you wake up and they've taken entire countries.

Speaker 20 And the only way that you can stop this is by making sure that the action that you're taking is not just waking up and going back to sleep, right?

Speaker 7 Yep.

Speaker 20 You have to take a stand. You have to fight because no one is coming.

Speaker 20 The only person who is coming for these people, the only person who is coming for the people coming next to them, and inevitably the only people who is coming to save you when they come for you is going to be you.

Speaker 20 And, you know, there are enough of us to stop them, right? There always have been. That's always been a thing about fascism, is that it relies on us not fighting them.

Speaker 20 It relies on us on our passivity. It relies on us not caring enough about the people that they take first, you know, to sit back and do nothing and think that we can wait.
And you can't.

Speaker 20 You have to start right now. And you have to stop them before they advance any further.
And you have to roll back what they've already done. And this is our opportunity to do that.

Speaker 22 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
I think this

Speaker 22 encapsulates the sentiment perfectly well.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 20 Do you have anything else that you want to add before we head out? And we will put links to a whole bunch of things in the description to this.

Speaker 20 Yeah.

Speaker 22 Yeah, I suppose

Speaker 22 to those that would want to know more about not just the struggle of the farm workers union, but also the general experiments in independent unionism here in the Pacific Northwest, I'd highly encourage that folks take a deep dive and see that to organize your workplace, to have the kind of solidarity with your coworkers, you need not be dependent upon someone else and other organizations to come in.

Speaker 22 and sort of rescue you from the mystery and drudgery of non-union workplaces.

Speaker 20 You can do it too.

Speaker 22 You can create, you have it in your head, in your own mind, and your own hands.

Speaker 22 The ability to organize, the ability to fight with your coworkers.

Speaker 22 You have the kinds of clever problem-solving skills that every worker has in order to combat the boss and create a better world than the one that currently exists.

Speaker 22 And also that when it comes to issues like standing up for this struggle now and struggles in the future. Yeah.

Speaker 22 I would say you have it now, the creative capacity to, in whatever city you're in, to make connections, to build inroads with the labor movement, to build inroads with working class people, and to try to create those bonds that happen.

Speaker 22 We here are trying to build closer bonds with city workers and farm workers out in the country. It's an important struggle because one is going to be more and more important in the future.

Speaker 22 You don't have to wait for anyone else to tell you how to do that.

Speaker 22 You yourselves can show solidarity and work together to build those kinds of bonds now so that in the future, you can create working class movements.

Speaker 22 Now, whether that takes the form of collective bargaining or something else, organizing for the common good is useful no matter in what legal capacity it happens.

Speaker 20 Yeah. And I mean, you know, one last point I want to add about that in terms of looking at like you not needing help to do things.

Speaker 20 Like, you know, I know a lot of the people who, you know, like are the organizers who are hired by places like the UAW, like AFL-CIO unions, right? They're good people. Like they are good people.

Speaker 20 They're good organizers. They don't know anything that you can't learn.
Like a lot of these people are just literally college students, right?

Speaker 20 Who are recruited like from college campuses and are thrown with no training into organizing these things. Right.

Speaker 20 And, you know, and again, these are people who are just like stepping out of classrooms into like into these organizing scenarios with very minimal training and they've been able to do it.

Speaker 20 And if those people can do it, so can you. Like I know you.

Speaker 20 I know these organizers.

Speaker 20 And the only difference between them and you is that they spent some time learning some things, and then they apply the same tools, like they apply, in some ways, worse versions of the same tools that the independent union organizers use, and they're all tools that you can learn.

Speaker 22 Yeah, and if any of the people listening want to learn some of those tools,

Speaker 22 or need help with education and training, or just want to make connections and in-roads with workers elsewhere, contact the coalition of independent unions and seeing how we can build these bonds together because I think that we will problem solve how to defeat this regime one way or another.

Speaker 22 But I think that we, particularly in the independent union space, provide a unique possibility for how this can happen. Because since we are not tied to larger established contracts, we're not tied to

Speaker 22 jurisdictional disputes. We're not tied to a lot of the legacies of some of the larger unions, God bless them, we can create and fashion a labor movement that doesn't have to live by those rules.

Speaker 22 If you imagine the idea of what it would look like to re-found the CIO in the 1930s, if you could imagine the worst aspects of the labor movement and excising them and what is the best aspects of the labor movement that you would want to see, we can create that together today.

Speaker 22 And today it takes the form of standing up in solidarity with Lelo and Farm Workers Union up Northern Washington, not because we get anything from it, not because it's easy, but precisely because it is difficult and precisely because it is a moral compulsion on us to take action today for it.

Speaker 22 We don't have to wait for anyone to tell us what to do. As part of an independent labor movement, we get to decide our future and our faith, and we get to decide our struggles.

Speaker 20 Yeah. And if and when we beat them here, we can beat them today, we can beat them tomorrow, we can beat them the next day.

Speaker 20 And one day, you know,

Speaker 20 we will have won one victory too many for them to hold on to power. And that's the only way forward.
Absolutely.

Speaker 22 Fascism wants you to believe in a nihilistic perspective of the world. They want you to believe in which it is hopeless to fight back.

Speaker 22 They want you to believe just doom scroll forever and don't take any action and focus on yourselves and navel gaze indefinitely. No, no, no.

Speaker 22 The way that you find out the kind of person that you are and the way that you build the kind of future that you want for yourselves, for your families, for your communities, for the people that you don't even know and never will meet what you want, a good life for them.

Speaker 22 The way that you do that is you take action now, you start organizing, you do what you can, you build what you can. That's how we do this.

Speaker 22 Like we said earlier, they want you to believe that the fight is already over, the history has already been written. They only say that because they know it's not true.
Yep.

Speaker 22 And we, and me, and other people who talk like this, who are as optimistic and as hopeful and as fight ready, we don't believe this out of nowhere.

Speaker 22 We believe this because we truly do see that the better world is possible if we fight.

Speaker 20 Yeah, and I think that's a spectacular place to end. Mark, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Yeah, thank you. And everyone else who's listening to this, go out and fight.

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Speaker 38 It's 1972.

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Speaker 6 Hello and welcome to It Could Happen Here.

Speaker 6 I want you to imagine a world where everyone shared a second language, not because of imperial conquest, but out of a shared desire for unity and understanding.

Speaker 6 That was the dream behind Esperanto, a constructed language designed to be the basis for global bilingualism.

Speaker 6 Long before I learned anything about anarchism, I spent some time trying to learn Esperanto. It had shown up on my Duolingo one day and it seemed like such a fascinating and simple project to pick up.

Speaker 6 I was enamored with the philosophy behind it, so I generally spent a few months on and off trying to learn it.

Speaker 6 That was probably a decade ago at this point, so I don't remember too much about it, but the connection was there.

Speaker 6 And and it's really because I've been exploring this topic for this episode that I ended up going back and dabbling in some of it again I've learned recently there's actually somewhat of a connection between Esperanto and anarchism so let's take the time to explore the origins of Esperanto its anarchist connections its flaws and its future my name is Andrew Sage and I'm here once again with It's me, it's James again.

Speaker 2 Very excited for this one.

Speaker 6 Yes, you're familiar with Esperanto, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, very familiar.

Speaker 2 I wrote about it a little bit in my

Speaker 2 first book and my PhD dissertation. Also, the last living person to participate in the Popular Olympics, which is what I wrote my book about, was an Esperantist.

Speaker 2 Part of the project of the Popular Front in Catalonia was to bring people together through sport. And then Esperanto is going to be this thing that would...

Speaker 2 as you mentioned, like bridge the gaps between people.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's a really inspiring project. And so I know you're probably going to know all this information, but I do have to share it with the audience.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 I'm excited. I never really did a full rundown on Esperanto.
It just appeared. And I was like, holy shit, that's cool.

Speaker 7 So I'm going to learn a lot.

Speaker 6 Sure. So Esperanto was first constructed in a little booklet in 1887 by Polish-Jewish ophthalmologist L.
L. Samenhoff.

Speaker 6 According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the name itself comes from the pseudonym he took on to publish the booklet. He called himself Doctoro Esperanto, Esperanto meaning one who hopes.

Speaker 6 And hope really analyzed the whole project.

Speaker 6 According to a BBC article written by José Luis Benaredondel, he lived as a Polish Jew in the multicultural Russian Empire in a time rife with racial and national conflict.

Speaker 6 He was trying to promote peace and understanding and he saw an international language as a way to do that.

Speaker 6 With a flag of green and white, the colours of hope and peace, for his efforts Zamenhof himself was nominated 14 times for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Speaker 6 He genuinely believed that if we all shared a common second language, quote, education, ideals, convictions, aims would be the same too, and all nations would be united in a common brotherhood, end quote.

Speaker 6 Esperanto was created in a time when modernism was on the rise, and the idea of rationality and science was being used to quote unquote optimize the world.

Speaker 6 When it was featured in Paris's Exposition Universelle in 1900, the language caught on amongst the French intelligentsia, who saw it as more optimal in the messy and illogical realm of natural languages.

Speaker 6 Because it was so easy, all words and sentences being built from 16 basic rules that could fit on a paper, and the language lacked the confusing exceptions and special rules of other languages, it was once seen as the language of the future.

Speaker 6 Esperanto made its full-fledged public debut in 1905, when Samenhoff published the Fundamento de Esperanto, which lay down the basic principles of languages' structure and formation.

Speaker 6 Esperanto is designed to be simple, logical, and accessible, drawn from the influence of Romance, Germanic, and Slavic languages in its construction.

Speaker 6 The orthography is phonetic, so all the words are spelled as pronounced, and the grammar is so straightforward there's a consistent word ending for nouns, pluralization, adjectives, and verbs.

Speaker 6 But although simple, it can convey complexity. There's a lot of suffixes you can add to give degrees of meaning, and there's room for compound words too.

Speaker 6 Its European focus will be the target of criticism later on, but it actually ended up being picked up in some unusual places anyway.

Speaker 6 Zamenhof translated literature and wrote original verse, and after years of effort, there were speakers to be found across Europe, the Americas, China, and Japan.

Speaker 2 Interesting.

Speaker 6 By 1908, the Universala Esperanto Associo was founded, and it can now find members in 83 countries worldwide.

Speaker 6 Today, there are also 50 national Esperanto associations and 22 international professional associations that use Esperanto.

Speaker 6 There's an annual World Esperanto Congress and more than 100 periodicals published in Esperanto. Estimates range widely in terms of how many people speak Esperanto today.

Speaker 6 There are apparently a handful of native speakers, folks who were raised speaking Esperanto.

Speaker 7 Oh, wow.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's really, really, really, really cool.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 6 But L2 speakers are somewhere between 30,000, L2 being, you know, second language speakers, are somewhere between 30,000 to 2 million.

Speaker 6 According to Will Firth's article on Esperanto and anarchism, there are tens of thousands of books in Esperanto and several hundred mostly small periodicals that appear regularly.

Speaker 6 Hardly a day passes without international meetings, such as those of specialized organizations, conferences, youth get-togethers, seminars, group holidays, and regional meetings.

Speaker 6 There are several radio stations that broadcast programs in Esperanto.

Speaker 6 And Esperanto has even been used by couples of different origins as a family language.

Speaker 2 It's cool.

Speaker 6 Funny enough, as with every language, even an aspiring universal language, it has since had its offshoots.

Speaker 6 I saw on Wikipedia that merely a year after Zamenhoff's creation of Esperanto, in 1888, Dutch author Jay Brackmann proposed a few changes to the language, like combining the ending for the adjective and adverb, changing conjugations, introducing more Latin roots, getting rid of the diacritics, and so on.

Speaker 6 This language would be called mundo-linko, and it was the first of many offshoots from Esperanto proper.

Speaker 6 Even Zamenhoff would try to reform the language at one point in 1894, but it was rejected by the Esperanto community and eventually even himself.

Speaker 6 These reforms would later be used to develop Edo, another attempt at universal language with far less success.

Speaker 6 I also learned via Wikipedia there was an attempt to make Esperanto more complex by introducing Cherokee components called Polispo, created by a Native American activist named Billy Ray Walden.

Speaker 6 Esperanto speakers continue to play with the language in all sorts of ways to this day. Esperanto is an evolving language, and Samenhoff himself is honored as part of this global Esperanto culture.

Speaker 6 They celebrate his birthday, the 15th of December. There are statues and streets and plaques remembering him worldwide, and even an asteroid bears his name.

Speaker 6 At one point, according to the BBC article, there was an effort to establish an Esperanto-speaking land called Amikeho, which would have been a 3.5 square kilometer territory between the Netherlands, Germany, and France.

Speaker 7 Yeah, nice.

Speaker 6 3.5 square kilometers.

Speaker 2 Yeah, not huge. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like a big I know. We've got a few of those little ones in Europe, you know.

Speaker 6 Yeah, a couple of micro-states. It could have been another micro-state, but the idea was very quickly squashed following World War I.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I know this Senate, the Spanish anarcho-syndicalist union, was like

Speaker 2 in its first congress, like its foundational congress, I suppose. They were like, and everyone has to, everyone should try and learn Esperanto.
Like that was one of their

Speaker 2 things at the foundation of like what became probably the most powerful anarchist movement the world's ever seen. They were like, Also, this is a big thing.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah, Esperanto was really huge in the anarchist movement at a certain point.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 6 But we're gonna get to those connections soon enough.

Speaker 6 I want to bring up this other interesting story.

Speaker 6 There was actually an effort by Esperantists, including a delegate from Iran, to get the language to become the official language of the League of Nations.

Speaker 6 But take one guess as to which country blocked that effort.

Speaker 2 Was it one of the Anglophone countries?

Speaker 6 No.

Speaker 7 Oh, wow.

Speaker 6 The French. It was the French.

Speaker 2 There is not a state more invested in its language than France. Indeed.
They have laws, I think, about broadcasting music and dubbing films and things.

Speaker 6 Yeah, the French government seemingly hated Esperanto, at least according to an article on Imp of the Diverse blog site. They blocked its study in universities and public schools.

Speaker 6 And as the article quotes the opponents directly, quote, on September 10th, 1922, the New York Tribune ran a translation of a piece by the editor-in-chief of Le Matine, Stéphane Lausanne. Mr.

Speaker 6 Lazan spent half his editorial writing about Esperanto. And I'm not going to do a French accent for this section, but just imagine like the most French Frenchman reading this.

Speaker 6 That Finns or Albanians favored such a propaganda is comprehensible. Their dialect has no chance of imposing itself on the universe.
They need a second language. Just as well, Esperanto as any other.

Speaker 6 But that French people or English or Germans could have let themselves be allured by this linguistic Bolshevism, that is far more extraordinary.

Speaker 6 It is nevertheless a fact that Esperanto, which was born 25 years ago and ought to have died through ridicule, continues to have disciples in Europe.

Speaker 6 Every year, in a different capital, they hold a Congress, at which they are not very numerous, but where they make a great noise.

Speaker 6 They get so excited that quite recently, the Minister of Public Instruction had to address a circular to all the French educational resorts to warn them against the danger of Esperanto.

Speaker 6 An article in the Washington Herald on that same day explained the danger, at least according to the Ministry of Public Instruction.

Speaker 6 The reason for this order, according to certain school teachers, is that teaching of a language as easy as Esperanto endangers the existence of the French language and thus the national solidarity of the country.

Speaker 6 They contend that children will naturally take to an easy language such as Esperanto, and in that time French and English would perish and that the literary standard of the world would be debased.

Speaker 6 Furthermore, they argue that a national language plays a predominant part in maintaining national unity and point to Poland and Lorraine as examples.

Speaker 6 Esperanto is an artificial language of no real merit, writes one professor.

Speaker 6 It has no very definite origin, and while it aims to draw the scattered people of the world together, does it not rather tend to denationalization?

Speaker 7 End quote.

Speaker 2 They're not wrong. Like, France is like a language.
If you read Peasants into Frenchmen, it's kind of the classic classic work on like French nationalization.

Speaker 2 But like in order to make people French, they did have to suppress like Basque and Breton and Catalan and other languages, right?

Speaker 2 And make people go to schools where they learned French and conceived of themselves as French as a result of that.

Speaker 6 Yeah, their imposition of national identity was perhaps among the most successful in the world.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 6 In terms of its earliest and its consistent enforcement.

Speaker 2 It shows like nations are are always projects of the bourgeoisie, right? Like at least I would argue that. So a lot of other people.

Speaker 2 But like the French example is one where we can see it more clearly than others.

Speaker 2 Like it's a state and specifically like a certain class within the state's project to enforce and continue to perpetuate this narrative of nation.

Speaker 6 And, you know, they weren't the only enemies of Esperanto. And do you know that saying, judge me by my enemies?

Speaker 2 Yeah, who else else have we got?

Speaker 6 Nazi Germany, Francoist Spain, and the Soviet Union also hated Esperanto.

Speaker 2 Gets cooler with everyone.

Speaker 6 The Nazis, they were nationalists, and Zamenhof was Jewish. So his family was actually targeted, and the language was banned.

Speaker 6 And Esperantists were targeted and put in camps during the Holocaust, which is really tragic. Yeah, pretty fucked.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 6 His whole family was heavily targeted by Nazi Germany. Franco associated Esperanto with anti-nationalism and anarchism, which true.

Speaker 7 Yeah, he wasn't wrong.

Speaker 6 So it was targeted for a while.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 6 And the Soviets, while originally recognizing Esperantists, eventually reversed that policy under Stalin during the Great Purge and executed, exiled, or gutaged Esperantists.

Speaker 6 And as you can imagine, all that repression all at once kind of killed Esperanto's momentum.

Speaker 6 Today, despite its goal of being a truly international language, Esperanto's global reach remains uneven.

Speaker 6 While it has made some strides in recent years, it's still underrepresented in many parts of Africa and Asia.

Speaker 6 The majority of Esperanto speakers today are in Europe, though its development outside of Europe deserves some attention, as Esperanto managed to leave a mark in China, Iran, Togo, and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Speaker 6 But the response to Esperanto historically should give you an indication as to how anarchists must have felt about Esperanto.

Speaker 6 As an internationalist or anti-nationalist movement, anarchism was very supportive of the Esperanto project. Let me run you through the timeline, courtesy, Wilfirth's Esperanto and Anarchism.

Speaker 6 One of the earliest anarchist Esperanto groups was founded in Stockholm in 1905. The same year, the anarchist Paul Blitelot founded the monthly magazine Esperanto.

Speaker 6 Similar groups soon emerged in Bulgaria, China, and other countries.

Speaker 6 In 1906, anarchists and anarcho-syndicalists founded an international association, Paco Liberico, Peace Freedom, which published the Internacia Socia Revue.

Speaker 6 By 1910, Paco Liberico merged with Esperantista Laboristaro to form Liberiga Stelo, Star of Liberation, strengthening anarchist Esperanto networks.

Speaker 6 The 1907 International Anarchist Congress in Amsterdam formally addressed the role of Esperanto in international communication.

Speaker 6 Subsequent anarchist congresses continued to pass resolutions advocating for Esperanto's use within the movement.

Speaker 6 By 1914, these anarchist Esperantist organizations had published extensive revolutionary literature, including anarchist texts, in Esperanto.

Speaker 6 Around this time, correspondence between European and Japanese anarchists became more active, facilitated by Esperanto.

Speaker 6 In Prague, Eugene Adam proposed the formation of Senaciesa Asocio Tutmunda, the SAT, or the World Inational Association.

Speaker 6 Unlike other Esperanto associations, SAT rejected nationalism wholesale and sought to create a transnational, class-conscious workers' movement.

Speaker 6 To quote Why Is There an Esperanto Workers' Movement by Gary Mickel,

Speaker 6 SAT was not meant to usurp the role of political parties by engaging in political struggles directly, but was to be a cultural association engaged in workers' education.

Speaker 6 one that would help to break down national and ethnic barriers between workers by involving them in practical collective activity, bringing workers into contact, freeing them from the shackles of nationalism.

Speaker 6 SAT's ideas, and especially the ideas of its anationalist faction, were an early statement of an idea that has more recently come to be known as globalization from below.

Speaker 6 So, in August 1921, 79 workers from 15 countries gathered in Prague to formally establish SAT.

Speaker 6 By 1929 to 1930, SAT had grown to 6,524 members across 42 countries, reaching its peak influence. The use of Esperanto flourished in German workers' movements between 1920 and 1933.

Speaker 6 By 1932, the German Workers' Esperanto League had 4,000 members, leading to Esperanto being called the Workers' Latin.

Speaker 6 But, as you can imagine, this was not to last by the time Hitler came into power.

Speaker 6 The Scientific Anarchist Library of the International Language, or ISAB, was founded in the USSR in 1923, publishing anarchist works by Kropotkin and Anne Boravoy in Esperanto.

Speaker 6 This also would not last the Great Purge.

Speaker 6 The Berlin Group of Anarcho-Syndicalist Esperantists greeted the second congress of the International Workers' Association in Amsterdam in 1925 and reported that Esperanto had become so integrated into their movement that an international libertarian Esperantist organization had formed.

Speaker 6 This likely referred to the TLES, the World League of Stateless Esperantists, which later merged with SAT.

Speaker 6 Esperanto was also popping off amongst anarchists and socialists in Korea, China, and Japan.

Speaker 6 Liu Shifu, a key figure in Chinese anarchism, began publishing La Vocho de le Popolo, The Voice of the People, in 1913, the first anarchist periodical in China.

Speaker 6 His work relied heavily on information from Internacia Socia Revio and helped popularize Esperanto in China.

Speaker 6 Japanese anarchists and socialists, as I mentioned, were among the earliest Esperantists in the country, but faced heavy persecution.

Speaker 6 And sadly, between Imperial Japan, Francoist Spain, Nazi Germany, and stellarist Russia, the rise of totalitarian regimes leading to World War II largely suppressed the anarchist Esperanto movement.

Speaker 6 After the war, the Paris Anarchist Esperanto Group was the first to resume organized work, launching the publication Sen Staltano in 1946.

Speaker 6 Most anarchist Esperantists have since been organized within SAT. with an anarchist faction maintaining its autonomy.

Speaker 6 In 1969, this faction began publishing the Liber Sana Bulteno, later renamed the Libertsana Liguilo. By 1997, SAT membership had dwindled to fewer than 1,500 members.

Speaker 6 The initial radical vision of SAT was weakened by political shifts and the growing dominance of English as a global lingua franca.

Speaker 6 The early separation between SAT and mainstream Esperanto organizations was a response to bourgeois political neutrality, but it also contributed to its marginalization.

Speaker 6 And today, the anarchist Esperanto movement exists largely as a niche within SAT.

Speaker 6 So, what can we say about the role of Esperanto today?

Speaker 6 Well, one of the more interesting currents I found in the Esperanto community mentioned by Futh is Raumismo, a philosophy named after the Finnish city of Rauma, where a youth congress in 1980 helped define this approach.

Speaker 6 Raoumiismo views Esperanto speakers as a kind of linguistic diaspora, a cultural group bound together by a shared language rather than a national identity.

Speaker 6 Instead of focusing on making Esperanto a universal second language, Raoul Mistoj embraced it as just one language among many, valuing its use in literature, culture, and everyday communication without any grand ideological ambitions.

Speaker 6 But it's possible Esperanto can still play a role in facilitating exchange and collaboration between people of different linguistic backgrounds.

Speaker 6 A German anarchist once lamented the barriers to international understanding, quoted in Futh's article.

Speaker 6 More or less in isolation from one another, we work and fight without engaging in an exchange about our victories and defeats, and without supporting and encouraging one another.

Speaker 6 Intensifying contact above the regional level with people having similar ideas and aims should be an important component of our work in order to make effective active solidarity possible.

Speaker 7 End quote.

Speaker 6 And that's the trouble even today. Linguistic barriers hinder international cooperation.

Speaker 6 Groups struggle to maintain foreign language correspondence, organize multilingual meetings, or find interpreters. Instead, communication tends to rely on chance.

Speaker 6 You know, someone in a group happens to speak a certain language, that determines who they can connect with. But when those key individuals move on, those connections can have fallen apart.

Speaker 6 So I get the appeal.

Speaker 6 I mean, wouldn't it be beneficial for these movements and for any interest group working across language barriers to have a relatively easy-to-learn, politically neutral means of communication.

Speaker 6 Major languages like English, Spanish, or French don't fully solve the problem as they come with historical baggage and imbalances in fluency levels.

Speaker 6 Esperanto, on the other hand, provides a more equitable solution because everybody is starting from the same point.

Speaker 6 Since it isn't tied to any one nation, it avoids the power dynamics that arise when non-native speakers must conform to the linguistic norms of dominant cultures.

Speaker 6 Unlike English, which often privileges native speakers and places others as perpetual learners, Esperanto fosters a more level playing field.

Speaker 6 English is treated like a global lingua franca right now, but a lot of people leave school without ever developing enough fluency to navigate an English-dominated world.

Speaker 6 And English is not the easiest language to learn.

Speaker 6 Esperanto, regardless of whether it ever becomes a global standard, offers an alternative path.

Speaker 6 It can help people overcome language learning anxieties, especially those who feel disempowered by traditional educational systems, and it can inspire an interest in language itself.

Speaker 6 If you've ever met an Esperanto speaker, you know that they are very passionate about linguistics, more often than not.

Speaker 6 Many of the speakers go on to study linguistics, language politics, or even lesser known languages. It's also a great way to develop translation skills in a friendly, cooperative environment.

Speaker 6 For monolingual English speakers, using Esperanto can be an eye-opening experience. It puts them in the shoes of those who never got to rely on their native language in international settings.

Speaker 6 Rather than viewing Esperanto as a competitor to other languages, perhaps a more productive approach is to see it as a tool for promoting multilingualism, cultural exchange, and a more cosmopolitan mindset.

Speaker 6 Within the Esperanto speaking community, opinions on its future vary widely. But one thing is clear.

Speaker 6 The question of how we communicate across linguistic divides is still very much alive, and Esperanto offers but one possible answer.

Speaker 6 However, as I alluded to earlier, Esperanto is not without its critiques, as covered by Futh.

Speaker 6 Let's start with one of the most frequent critiques. Esperanto is an artificial language.

Speaker 6 Unlike the so-called natural languages which evolved organically over time, Esperanto is deliberately constructed. But here's the thing.

Speaker 6 Since the rise of the nation-state, the line between natural and artificial languages has become become increasingly blurry.

Speaker 6 Many national languages, like standard German or standard French, have been shaped by deliberate standardization, legal regulations, and media influence.

Speaker 6 In that sense, every language is to some degree engineered. Authors, storytellers, and ordinary speakers continuously influence language development.

Speaker 6 meaning that Esperanto is not as different after all, it does continue to evolve. And here's where I think James C.

Speaker 6 Scott had a rather negative characterization of Esperanto as a purely high modernist endeavor, as though all Esperanto sought to make Esperanto the official international language. In St.

Speaker 6 Michael State, he claims that Esperanto was created to replace the dialects and vernaculars of Europe. But such was never the case.

Speaker 6 It was always meant to be a language used to facilitate communication.

Speaker 6 There was more than one motivation for Esperanto's use, and boiling such an exercise in human creativity and attempted connection down to just that status focus,

Speaker 6 to me seems needlessly reductive.

Speaker 6 He also calls it, quote, an exceptionally thin language without any of the resonances, connotations, ready metaphors, literatures, oral histories, idioms, and traditions of practical use that any socially embedded language already had, end quote.

Speaker 6 Which may be true when it began, but it's certainly not true now, with over a century of use and evolution.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 6 His analogies between Esperanto and Planned Cities also missed the mark for me, as Esperanto has clearly operated as a self-organized and grassroots movement for most of its history and has never really received the backing of states or their enforcement.

Speaker 2 It's a weird angle from Scott, because normally he'd advocate for what he calls the anarchist squint, right? Like in

Speaker 2 seeing history through a perspective of anarchism, I guess, or like an anarchist lens.

Speaker 2 And I feel like this is very applicable with Esperanto, like the only language which isn't inherently tied to any state or nation or ethnicity.

Speaker 7 Exactly.

Speaker 6 When I saw that, I remember reading Seen Like a State some years ago, and I've already glossed over that. But in doing the research for this, I ended up, you know, stumbling upon it again.

Speaker 6 And I was like, hmm, after reading the history, it's like this wasn't quite accurate.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, that's about it. Yeah.
I generally like Scott.

Speaker 6 Me as well.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Recently, some listeners very kindly,

Speaker 2 James C. Scott passed away out of this near, as I'm sure you know, Andrew.

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 2 But his library was donated to a local second-hand bookshop, and some folks

Speaker 2 I asked online, and they went and got me some books and sent them, which was really kind. So I have some of his books now.

Speaker 6 Oh, that's nice. Yeah.

Speaker 6 There's another common claim about Esperanto, which is that it's Eurocentric, right?

Speaker 6 And linguistically, there's some truth to this. Esperanto originated in Eastern Europe, and it still carries structural elements that resemble Indo-European languages.

Speaker 6 The majority of Esperanto speakers today are European, and its vocabulary is largely drawn from European languages.

Speaker 6 However, critics who make this argument often suggest alternatives like English or Spanish, languages that are just as, if not more, Eurocentric in their historical and political reach.

Speaker 6 Esperanto, in contrast, has evolved through influence from non-European languages as well, particularly through its development in China and Japan, its agglutinative word formation, a feature more common in languages like Turkish or Japanese, and what some call the Hungarian period of Esperanto's history.

Speaker 6 So while Esperanto has European roots, its global evolution challenges the idea that it's exclusively European in character. Another critique is that Esperanto is sexist.

Speaker 6 The argument goes that because feminine forms are typically created by adding in to a base form, like laboristo, worker, become a labristino, female worker, the language assumes masculinity as a default.

Speaker 6 And while this is a valid concern, Esperanto differs from many European languages in a key way. It does not assign grammatical gender to inanimate objects.

Speaker 6 A chair isn't arbitrarily feminine like in French or masculine like in German. However, in practice, gender bias can still creep in.

Speaker 6 The basic form of a noun is often assumed to be masculine, even though Esperanto allows for explicitly male forms as well.

Speaker 6 Like in any language, reducing linguistic sexism in Esperanto requires conscious effort in how people actually use it.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's an interesting one. Like, we see this in Spanish too, right? Like, with attempts to create gender-neutral forms,

Speaker 2 the presumptive masculine, or if you're addressing a mixed gender group, then you would use the masculine. But like, people who are first language Spanish speakers can correct me.

Speaker 2 I'm sure you will on the subreddit if you want to. So, like, when I hear in English language media, it's referred to as Latinx.

Speaker 2 But, like, that's kind of a word that I struggle to say in Spanish, like, is it Latinx or like, is it Latinx?

Speaker 2 and so there's this very kind of clumsy gender neutral form which seems to be easier to say in english than spanish yeah i've seen latin used uh in some circles yeah latine latine

Speaker 2 yeah when i speak to non-binary people in spanish that's what they prefer to use um of the relatively small sample size given that there are probably millions of non-binary Spanish-speaking people.

Speaker 2 I haven't obviously spoken to all or most of them.

Speaker 2 But like, it's very interesting to see this outside critique of the language, which seems to also ignore an inside movement within people who are Spanish first-language speakers to create a organic, like gender-neutral form, which could also happen in any language, right?

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 just because Esperanto has a certain form doesn't mean that people within that language who don't feel represented by them can create forms within that language to better represent them.

Speaker 6 Exactly.

Speaker 2 And it's easier because you don't have like a government telling you you can't use it or whatever.

Speaker 6 Exactly, exactly. Esperanto is and continues to be a grassroots movement.
And that has actually been a subject of critique for some.

Speaker 6 You know, perhaps one of the biggest critiques of Esperanto is that it never achieved its original goal of becoming a universal second language.

Speaker 6 Zamenhof, its creator, envisioned a world where Esperanto would bridge linguistic divides. But for many, learning a language that relatively few people spoke simply wasn't practical.

Speaker 6 But the rise of the internet changed the game for Esperanto. What was once difficult to learn and use daily has become far more accessible.

Speaker 6 For example, Esperanto is actually one of the most overrepresented languages on the internet.

Speaker 6 The Esperanto Wikipedia has around 240,000 articles, putting it in the same league as languages spoken by tens of millions of people, like Turkish and Korean.

Speaker 6 Google and Facebook have offered Esperanto versions of their platforms for years. and language learning services like Duolingo have helped introduce it to a new generation of learners, like myself.

Speaker 6 In fact, the people who developed Esperanto courses for Duolingo did so voluntarily, simply because they believed in the language's potential.

Speaker 6 Esperanto has fostered a unique online community, and there's even a free hospitality network called Pasporta Servo, where Esperanto speakers can stay with each other around the world.

Speaker 6 No money required, just a shared language and a common philosophy of global connection. Not everyone learns Esperanto for the same reasons.

Speaker 6 Some people seek intellectual challenge, some want a sense of unique community, and others are drawn to its political neutrality.

Speaker 6 As communications lecturer Sara Marino points out in the BBC article, people engage in Esperanto for many different motivations, whether it's personal fulfillment, social inclusion, civic engagement, or just the simple joy of learning a new language.

Speaker 6 It's important not to reduce Esperanto learners to a stereotype. Their reasons for participating are as diverse as the language itself.

Speaker 6 So, where does Esperanto stand today?

Speaker 6 It may never replace English as the global lingua franca, but perhaps that was never the point.

Speaker 6 Instead, it serves as a tool for promoting bilingualism, fostering cross-cultural connections, and encouraging people to think differently about language itself.

Speaker 6 And I think that is worthy of its own reward.

Speaker 6 That's all I have for today. All power to all the people.

Speaker 7 Peace.

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Speaker 10 I turned off news altogether.

Speaker 11 I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

Speaker 12 It's the rage bait.

Speaker 13 It feels like it's trying to divide people.

Speaker 14 We got clear facts.

Speaker 15 Maybe we could calm down a little.

Speaker 17 NBC News brings you clear reporting.

Speaker 18 Let's meet at the facts.

Speaker 19 Let's move forward from there.

Speaker 16 NBC News, reporting for America.

Speaker 7 Honestly, honestly.

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Speaker 35 It doesn't protect against other STIs though, so be sure to use condoms and other healthy sex practices.

Speaker 7 Ask a healthcare provider about all your prevention options and visit findoutaboutprep.com to learn more. Sponsored by Gilead.

Speaker 38 It's 1972.

Speaker 39 A young British family is attempting to sail around the world when disaster strikes.

Speaker 42 Their boat is hit by killer whales and it sinks in seconds.

Speaker 44 All they have left is a life raft and each other.

Speaker 47 This is the true story of the Robertson family and their fight to survive, hosted by me, Becky Milligan.

Speaker 46 Listen to Adrift, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House. Follow and listen on Apple podcasts.

Speaker 23 This is It Could Happen Here, Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it means means for you. I'm Garrison Davis.

Speaker 23 Today, I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. This week, we're covering the week of April 3rd to April 9th.

Speaker 23 We have recovered from Liberation Day, fully liberated. Yeah.
And now the economy is back to normal, right?

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 4 Everything's really good.

Speaker 4 Everyone's 401ks have been normal.

Speaker 23 And stable. And stable.

Speaker 4 And stable. That's what's important.
just line go up the economy runs from stability

Speaker 2 I mean one of the things the line did was go up so yeah the line's going why should any why should anyone complain

Speaker 2 yeah the line's gone in a few different directions this week among the different directions the line went up was you know a portion of that time yes yeah the only the only direction it hasn't gone is left i guess which uh you know We're waiting for that one.

Speaker 4 In related news, a dead cat can bounce. I don't know why they picked a cat for the dead animal to bounce to refer to that stock market term.

Speaker 2 I think this is a term that's new to Garrison, just judging by their facial expression.

Speaker 2 You don't know what that is? No. So basically,

Speaker 4 when a stock price for a company or whatever collapses, right, there will generally be it will a straight line down and then it will bump back up and it will look like it's rallying.

Speaker 4 But this isn't generally a rally.

Speaker 4 What it is is that when people like short a stock, there's a point at which they have to like buy back the share, like shares, and that artificially inflates it briefly before it then begins to decline again.

Speaker 4 So it's not a real, it's the result of how short selling works that there has to be this thing that makes it temporarily look like it's rallying, but that that's really not what's happening.

Speaker 25 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 23 No, I'm familiar with this concept.

Speaker 4 And they call it a dead cat.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's referred to as a dead cat bounce. Yeah.

Speaker 4 I don't know why it's referred to as a dead cat bounce, but it is.

Speaker 7 Because stockbrokers are not normal people. They're not, they're not.

Speaker 7 right.

Speaker 20 These are Wall Street guys. One of them has probably done it.
Like, that's probably why it's called that.

Speaker 25 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Look, I've thrown a lot of corpses at a lot of things, and they don't really bounce.

Speaker 23 Speaking of corpses, Robert, you have some exciting news on the army.

Speaker 7 It's pronounced core, garrison.

Speaker 4 Yes, yes.

Speaker 4 The good news is the army is going to be more lethal and efficient than ever before, which President Trump announced while sitting in the White House next to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who had to take roughly twice the length of trip he normally has to take to go here because so many countries that he would normally fly over or stop in have arrest warrants out for him for all of the war crimes.

Speaker 2 Oh, we'd love to see it.

Speaker 4 But, you know, it's not about the journey. It's about, you know, the people you journey to.

Speaker 4 And Netanyahu met with Trump, you know, someone whom he clearly feels very safe and, you know, I dare I say loving with.

Speaker 4 And the two of them shared the most intimate bond that two elderly men who have committed war crimes can share which is announcing a record budget for the united states military of one trillion dollars well i should say trump stated it would be in the vicinity of one trillion dollars now does that mean possibly that very little is changing about the military budget yes it does uh and we'll get to that in a second hegseth our secretary of defense made a post on twitter right after saying trump is rebuilding our military and fast he also really bragged about that trillion dollar amount and said ps we intend to spend every taxpayer dollar wisely on lethality and readiness now here's the thing trillion dollars shitload of money current amount of funding allocated to national defense programs 892 billion dollars yeah so trillion dollars about a 10 bump right for you know the national defense programs but it's actually unclear the way in which he phrased things and the way in which we like talk about the funding for national security.

Speaker 4 This could mean that basically the military will have pretty much the same, you know, something of an increase, but not a mass, not really a significant difference from what it has now.

Speaker 4 And there will be more money into other defense-related programs. So this is not like as massive a thing as it might necessarily sound like.

Speaker 4 I think one thing that's sort of significant here is like how this comports with the way a lot of the folks on what we'll call the shithead left had talked about, where there was this discussion that Trump's actually going to be, you know, bad for imperialism and the war machine.

Speaker 4 And, you know, there was even talk as of a couple of months ago that they were going to like half the Pentagon budget.

Speaker 4 Like, you know, you know, all these, whatever else happens, you know, it's worth it if the military budget comes down and this, you know, imperial

Speaker 4 juggernaut of hell gets finally neutered.

Speaker 2 And these people are stupid.

Speaker 4 And just all of those people are always wrong. They were always going to just make the army bigger.
They were always going to put more money in defense.

Speaker 4 They were always, going to put more money into the hands of defense contractors. Like anyone who knows anything about these people or about how Republicans have worked knew that was going to happen.

Speaker 4 There was never any chance that they were going to cut the actual amount of money.

Speaker 4 Now, they're probably going to cut the number of people in the military because, despite what Hegseth said, there's a lot of evidence that a shitload of this is going to go towards modernization.

Speaker 4 And in fact, armed services, each branch is being, our armed services are all being asked to cut about 8% of their individual budgets in order to put money into modernization efforts, which obviously any military needs to regularly modernize different systems.

Speaker 4 But this is also a thing where if your country is run entirely by grifters and conmen trying to shotgun money to their political supporters who have a lot of money in different defense companies, what this means to me is you are probably going to see them continue to trim numbers of actual troops and put more money into bullshit that gets a lot of money to contractors.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 that's that is my expectation that is what i see happening more than anything here we'll see but i think a lot of this additional money is going to go towards buying that may or may not be useful but the primary purpose of putting the money into that is because somebody who is somebody gets a vig yeah i mean if we look at fascism as a concept too, it kind of it has this troubled relationship with modernity, but one of the things it likes to do is flex its new little weapon systems and toys.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 we're going to see some guys posing with some weapon systems that probably never get used, right? Like, probably some AI targeting shit, stuff like that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, that Israel already does that, yeah.

Speaker 23 Well, we gotta find some way to reallocate the alleged

Speaker 23 150 billion dollars in Doge cuts, which is certainly a fake number,

Speaker 23 absolutely a fake number, we may as well send over 200 billion more to the Defense Department.

Speaker 4 Based on early IRS filings, there's something like half a trillion dollars that we might be losing in tax income this year. So, you know, net, I don't think we're doing great.

Speaker 4 I should also note here, a big part of the money that they're going to get for modernization is coming from cutting 50 to 60,000 civilian jobs,

Speaker 4 many of whom are veterans. But also just in terms of like military readiness, guys like Hegzeth, who's primarily a push-up dude

Speaker 4 and people who don't know anything about the military see it as like, well, you know, the military, you just want as many door kickers as you possibly can.

Speaker 4 And you actually need very few of those guys.

Speaker 4 What you need a lot of is guys that can move things to different places and fix things when they break and do a lot of the paperwork that's necessary to make both of those things possible, which is why you need those jobs.

Speaker 4 And cutting a shitload of them is not likely to increase readiness. It's also worth noting that the U.S.
Army is looking at a force reduction of up to 90,000 active duty soldiers.

Speaker 4 This is based on an article from April 4th, which is a significant reduction and again like we're not real yes why why are they doing a 90 reduction in part because it's very hard for them to find new active duty soldiers huh it is not easy to get people to do this and it is not the priority of anybody in charge of anything to actually get more soldiers the priority is to put more money into systems and ai and all this shit like i don't think they have a vested interest in actually helping with that how are how are we going to take greenland with drones like what are we doing yeah probably i mean there's not a lot of people

Speaker 4 probably how we're going to do it there's not a lot of people in greenland garrison

Speaker 23 excited for the naval blockade of greenland yeah kick off in about uh two months yeah

Speaker 4 it's it's going to be great anyway they're going to make part of why i think they feel confident trying to make you know they're calling this making the army smaller and more agile is because trump is doing his best to make friends with Russia.

Speaker 4 And we're certainly not going to whatever happens with Taiwan, the U.S. military is not going to be involved.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we ain't going to go bad for them.

Speaker 4 You know, his attitude is like, what do we need this for? We need an agile military that we can use to fuck with Greenland and Panama. Like, that's what we're going to be doing.

Speaker 2 Two very similar biomes where

Speaker 2 everything is very similar. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And there's a lot of people like, you know, the folks running Palantir who have an increasing amount of say in what happens to the military and, you know, what Trump does, who are basically advocating for like, we're going to have this whole kill chain automated soon.

Speaker 4 We barely need people. You can't trust people.
You know how untrustworthy your generals have proved, Donald.

Speaker 7 Cool.

Speaker 23 Well, I'm excited for some more Arctic camo surplus to hit the market once

Speaker 23 the Greenland situation is resolved.

Speaker 2 I'm excited to be fucking around wondering who a drone's going to kill next. That has been a really life-affirming experience for me, and I'm excited to have it again soon.

Speaker 2 It's going to be great, Robert. You mentioned the IRS and the IRS maybe get less money.
So, I want to talk a little bit about the IRS.

Speaker 2 I guess let's start with like a little summary of this week's immigration news. Um, this week, Charia Raychik, who is the person who runs Libs of TikTok, yeah, joined ICE on a raid.

Speaker 4 She is, shall we say, the uh uh Julia Stryker of uh our modern faster space.

Speaker 7 Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2 I guess you're right, damn. Sorry, I'm just.

Speaker 4 Yeah, no, I mean, I like, I wasn't joking about that. That's the most direct comparison.

Speaker 2 Yeah, sorry. I just took a moment to reflect on that, and it's not a great thing to reflect on.

Speaker 4 It's really not. No, it doesn't make me feel good.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no.

Speaker 2 Other things that don't make me feel good are the 60 Minutes report: 75% of people sent to Sikkot had no criminal conviction, which seems to leave open the possibility of there being a crime for which it would be okay to be sent to a foreign gulag with no hope of return, which I don't believe is the case.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 I'm very disappointed at any reporting which focuses on guilt as if one could ever be guilty of anything which would make this justifiable. You can't.

Speaker 2 The government is also soliciting for proposals this week to massively increase migrant detention, which again is not surprising, right? We talked about this last November, but it's also not great.

Speaker 2 But where I want to focus today is on the IRS and the Abrego Garcia case that we spoke about last week.

Speaker 2 So you will have seen some reporting that the IRS has said it will hand over information of people who are subject to criminal investigation to DHS or ICE, right? ICE being under DHS.

Speaker 2 So they say

Speaker 2 what happened here is that part of court filings, a memorandum of understanding between ICE and the IRS was released. In the MOU, or in the court filing, actually, they cite an offense.

Speaker 2 of failure to depart the United States after being ordered removed. So essentially anyone who they're saying, like, you have to go, right?

Speaker 2 They could then ask for their tax return information. Exactly what the IRS will disclose to ICE is covered by a big black redaction in the court documents.
So we don't know that.

Speaker 2 The entire MOU has submitted, but like there's significant redactions in it. ICE has to hand, one thing that's not redacted is that ICE has to hand over the person's name, address, and the crime

Speaker 2 for which they're investigating. And it has to be a non-tax crime, not that that matters hugely.

Speaker 2 This is more limited than a lot of people have feared, and it's more limited than a lot of the the reporting I've seen. It's possible that there's something else going on.

Speaker 2 I saw the acting director in ICE was going to quit over this. I saw that this morning.

Speaker 2 But the fact that they have to have their address suggests that they couldn't locate them using the tax return form, right? Which is a good thing. Like it is one last step towards fascism, I guess.

Speaker 2 I'm also aware of ICE having memorandums of understanding with other agencies to include HUD, right, Housing and Urban Development.

Speaker 2 All of this is going to reduce the amount that migrant communities engage with the federal government to any degree, right?

Speaker 2 Contrary to what you might have heard, underoccupied people do tend to pay their taxes. It is actually relatively rare for them not to do that.

Speaker 2 And this might change if the IRS starts handing over people's tax return information to ICE, right?

Speaker 2 Obviously, if HUD starts handing over people's information, that's going to lead to people not being as willing to take housing benefits, more people ending up living on the street, right?

Speaker 2 On the other hand, Houston, a city in Texas, for those of you who aren't familiar, have I pronounced that right, robert tejas yeah i thought it was i wasn't sure if it was houston houston oh how

Speaker 2 understood it's a it's a place we just don't go that's that's that's how i refer to houston okay beautiful so this texas no man's land town has turned over information including addresses and license pates for people charged with driving without a license even though some of this under texas law is supposed to remain confidential so that's great they're also now making immigration detentions at regular traffic stops.

Speaker 2 So I'm aware of one incident where a man was arrested after being stopped for a cracked windscreen and he's now in ICE detention.

Speaker 2 So there was presumably an ICE warrant for this person that the Houston police then acted upon.

Speaker 23 I mean, and this can just be racial profiling, right?

Speaker 23 Like if they can just pull someone over and then send them to ICE, like they're just going to start pulling over as many people that they don't want to be in Houston. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like we already know that police departments have a tendency to pull over people who aren't white more often, right? And then like, if you give them this, that's just going to exacerbate that further.

Speaker 2 Again, it's also going to stop migrant communities interacting with the police in any way, right? This obviously has,

Speaker 2 look, not a big police fan, but like in cases like domestic violence, right? Sometimes... people need to go to the police to be safe and they're not going to do so.

Speaker 2 They think that means they or people they love will be deported. And this will have negative consequences, specifically in cases like domestic violence.
And we know this.

Speaker 2 There is plenty of evidence for this. Nonetheless, this is continuing anyway.
What's also continuing is our obligation to pivot to ATS, which we should do now.

Speaker 23 Okay, we are back.

Speaker 2 We're back. And it's time to talk about the Supreme Court.

Speaker 7 Do we have to?

Speaker 2 Yes, yes, we do, Garrison, because it's the biggest court. It's the big one.
And And they've been crushing it all week, just

Speaker 2 sending down decisions. The two big ones, I guess, I want to talk about are a 5-4 ruling that it was vacating Boesberg's TRO.

Speaker 2 Boesberg being the judge who had initially told the United States government that it had to stop sending people to set court, right? And then the U.S. had ignored Boesberg and done it anyway.

Speaker 2 And then they had this whole court case about how they hadn't ignored him. And anyway, it was a secret, even though we're tweeting it.
You can go back a couple of EDs and hear about that.

Speaker 2 In this decision, the court was unanimous in asserting that people removed under the Alien Enemies Act do have a right to due process, but that they have to bring a habeas petition.

Speaker 2 So, like, the reason they vacated a TRO was that the case shouldn't have gone to Boesberg, right? That they should have brought this habeas petition.

Speaker 2 In practice, that's going to be very hard, given the fact that many migrants, even under the current system, even under Biden, most migrants who didn't speak English didn't have access to legal representation.

Speaker 2 So, this ruling is still pretty bad. The only thing that people in the court case wanted to stop was their rendition to El Salvador, right? It wasn't even like opposed to other forms of removal.

Speaker 2 It was specific to this El Salvador situation. The court also sort of cited criminal cases as precedent, which is a very different thing.

Speaker 2 And it gives this very narrow ruling of the due process available to migrants, right? And it relies on migrants having access to a legal team, which could be expensive and complicated for them.

Speaker 23 So this ruling allows trump administration to send people to el salvador as as long as they have the quote-unquote right to due process which is narrowly defined as something that not many people will have access to anyway yes yeah well summarized yeah you you would need to have like a lawyer on retainer to file your your habeas right like straight away so if that just doesn't get filed then you are basically, in their view, forfeiting your due process and they can deport you anyway.

Speaker 2 Well, they can deport you anyway. Yeah, I guess you have the right to

Speaker 2 appeal it, like by saying,

Speaker 2 I want to file this habeas petition,

Speaker 2 but most people aren't going to do that. So, in practice,

Speaker 2 they haven't explicitly ruled on the Security thing, right? The Abergo-Garcia case, which is the other case, a Fourth Circuit judge required the U.S. to return Abrago-Garcia to the U.S.

Speaker 2 And then Chief Justice Roberts, on his own, issued an administrative stay. So, he is effectively telling them that Fourth Circuit judge, you can't order them to have him return right now.

Speaker 2 We need to take a timeout. We need everybody to get their evidence in order and then bring that to us.

Speaker 2 So that case

Speaker 2 remains ongoing, right? In the brief for that case, the government referred to Abu Go Garcia as an enemy alien, but I don't think MS-13 is covered by the Evocation of the Alien Enemies Act.

Speaker 2 I think it was specific to Trendi Aragua.

Speaker 2 And then they also claim that they removed him under the Immigration Nationality Act, not the Alien Enemies Act. So like, none of this, I guess, is hugely surprising.

Speaker 2 We're seeing this like sort of post hoc justification of what they did, right, which is kind of how they operate. But that case still remains ongoing.
So we're still...

Speaker 2 We're still going to hear that one, which presumably will reflect on the constitutionality of sending people to Sekot. But the fact that, yeah, they ruled the other case, right?

Speaker 2 The one that was five to four, four, it wasn't about whether Sekot was legal. It was about whether Boesberg had the right to make a decision on this particular case.
But it's still not great.

Speaker 2 Like it looks like the Supreme Court is doing everything it can to avoid a face-to-face showdown with the executive branch

Speaker 2 because they don't want to deal with the consequences of it ignoring them.

Speaker 7 Nope.

Speaker 2 And like we said before, like maybe the only court that they will listen to is the Supreme Court. Well, if the Supreme Court doesn't make them, then they won't.
So that's where we're at with that.

Speaker 4 Not great.

Speaker 2 Not exactly great at all. Nope.

Speaker 23 Well, do you know what is doing great? The economy. And for more on that, I think it's time for Tariff Talk with Mia Wong.

Speaker 4 Wait, wait, wait. Tariff Talk?

Speaker 7 Tyree don't like it.

Speaker 7 Rocking Caspar, rocking Caspar. Tyree don't like it.

Speaker 7 Rocking Caspa, rocking Caspar.

Speaker 7 Ah, yeah.

Speaker 4 Ah, every day, every time we do it. The only band that matters, it's the only band that matters.
The narcissist cookbook doing a very brief refrain from Rock the Caspa.

Speaker 4 The worst clash song by a wide margin.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the only clash song to have been played during Operation Desert Storm, which made

Speaker 7 your straum a cry.

Speaker 4 A real catastrophe.

Speaker 23 You know what isn't a catastrophe? The economy.

Speaker 7 Yeah, how's it going?

Speaker 20 So

Speaker 20 I just saw a wonderful chart where someone was like, ah, this is one of the eight best days the SP has ever had. And every single other one of those days is like 1929, 1931, 2008.

Speaker 7 Yes,

Speaker 7 2020.

Speaker 2 It's one of the best days for Mount St. Helens air quality.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 20 It's so good.

Speaker 20 So, all right, the tariff situation as of 2:43 p.m. Pacific time on April 9th is that there is fine.

Speaker 25 Going good.

Speaker 2 It's going to be cool, guys. Don't worry about it.

Speaker 20 Okay, so there is an 125% tariff on all goods from China.

Speaker 23 Is that bad?

Speaker 20 You know, there's a bit that I cut here where I was going to say about how, like, at 54%,

Speaker 20 I was like, we've entered the part of the map where it just says, here there be dragons. At 125%, There's not even dragons there.
They didn't even think to put that on the map as an unknown region.

Speaker 20 Hi, this is Mia from the future. It is now Thursday.
One of the problems with attempting to do this episode is that we are learning the tariff rate from Twitter in real time.

Speaker 20 So it turns out that the actual tariff rate on China,

Speaker 20 as clarified by Donald Trump today, is 145%.

Speaker 20 And also, it has become clear that the 25% turf tariffs on both Mexico and Canada are also still in effect. So,

Speaker 7 yay!

Speaker 4 In medical terms, it means what happened to the global economy is equivalent to you getting hit directly in the spine by an F-250 going 45 miles an hour.

Speaker 4 That's, that's, that's what's happened to the base of the global economy.

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 20 And I mean, it's, it is very funny that like a lot of people have been focusing on the the bond stuff because you can just look at the tariff numbers and it's like, yeah, okay, seeing a 125% tariff on all goods from China and then looking at the bond markets to figure out if that's bad or not is like, it like is like walking outside into a blizzard and being like, whoop, I need the weather, man.

Speaker 20 Tell me if it's snowing.

Speaker 7 Like, what are we doing here?

Speaker 20 What are we doing here?

Speaker 4 The reason I'll explain like briefly, treasury bonds are the underpinning of every country, the entire global economy. Every single country has a shitload of money in U.S.

Speaker 4 treasury bonds because they are the most reliable thing. And what a treasury bond is, is you give money to the U.S.

Speaker 4 government and they say in a period of time, you can take this out and it will have grown by a set percentage. Because

Speaker 4 treasury bonds have been for the last basically a century so incredibly stable, this is where you put your money that you don't want to gamble.

Speaker 4 So you have, you know, money that is in stocks and stuff that can go up and down, but you also hedge your bets by having a bunch in this.

Speaker 4 And, you know, generally treasury bonds are hopefully enough to about keep pace with inflation or beat it by a little bit.

Speaker 4 But usually the, the rate is not all that high because there's a shitload of demand. People are always buying treasury bonds.

Speaker 4 When the treasury bond rate, which is the percentage you get back raises, that may look good, right? Like, wow, you can get 5% now on if you put money into a into a 30-year T-bond.

Speaker 4 But what that means is that everyone is selling. their treasury bonds.
So demand is down and the rate is higher.

Speaker 4 And everyone is selling them because entire countries at a time are pulling their money out. Nations are pulling their money out of the U.S.
economy.

Speaker 20 It's great. Yeah, and we are going to get more into how the Trump administration wants to fuck with that later.

Speaker 20 But first off, programming note, programming note, I am going to be from this episode forward referring to all of these as the turf tariffs because fuck them.

Speaker 20 And because these tariffs are in a large part also about a bunch of really weird fucking masculinity bullshit. So

Speaker 4 excited for that.

Speaker 23 Yeah. And when you make most of your election ads being about trans people,

Speaker 23 and then the economy goes to the toilet, this is what was voted for.

Speaker 20 Like, if you wanted transphobia, this is what you wanted. You wanted to lose your job.
You wanted everyone to lose their fucking home.

Speaker 4 Speaking of T-bonds, am I right?

Speaker 23 Let's skip over that immediately.

Speaker 7 No. No, no, no, no.
No.

Speaker 7 No one laughs at him.

Speaker 25 I'm going to go away.

Speaker 7 Okay, okay.

Speaker 20 So, so

Speaker 20 the most chaotic thing happening here, other than Robert randomly saying things, is that

Speaker 20 nobody knows what the tariff situation is going to be, just even just on Friday when you're listening to this, right?

Speaker 20 Like you, by the time you're listening to this, there could be 200% tariffs on Indonesia, there could be 4,000% tariffs on Vietnam. We don't know.

Speaker 4 No, Trump could have dissolved the U.S. dollar and we're all using the fucking decades or whatever.

Speaker 7 Like, I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 20 Yeah. And, like, you know, so, so it's all really unstable.
Um, we can talk about the other things that are still in effect.

Speaker 20 So there's a general 10% tariff on all countries except for China are just supposed to have a general 10% tariff.

Speaker 20 There's also this per Megan Casella, who's a CNBC reporter, there are 25% tariffs on steel, aluminum, and cars. There's probably going to be more.
He keeps talking about more tariffs.

Speaker 20 And it's like, who knows when they're going to happen? Like maybe pharmaceuticals, semiconductors.

Speaker 20 But the Liberation Day tariffs, turf tariffs are currently on hold.

Speaker 23 For 90 days, at least as of right now.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 the quote-unquote reciprocal tariffs have been lowered to 10%.

Speaker 23 For me, at least, it's unclear as of recording on Wednesday. Trump said that

Speaker 23 this is in effect immediately. It's unclear if those 10% tariffs are also on hold for 90 days.

Speaker 20 No, I think the 10% ones are in effect right now, but it's really hard to tell because he's just saying shit.

Speaker 23 Yes, it's very hard to tell.

Speaker 2 He didn't send it. He's truthing it.

Speaker 23 Yes, sorry. He is he is truth socialing that this information.

Speaker 2 That is how we have to work out the global economic future is based on posts on truth social.

Speaker 20 Yeah, so so okay.

Speaker 20 And one of the things one of the things that's been happening with with the turf tariffs is that like the media is just record is reporting things as true that are just clearly obviously a lie.

Speaker 20 So one of the ones that's been going around and that the media is reporting that Trump has said is that he said he's going to pause tariffs on countries that don't retaliate, except we know that's a lie because the EU already imposed retaliatory tariffs, but the EU's turf tariff rate is like already down to 10%, just like everyone else.

Speaker 20 So we know that Trump is lying about his rationale for the rollback of the turf tariffs, right?

Speaker 20 And every single fucking media outlet is still just reporting it because nobody fucking knows how to do freaking reporting anymore. We should move to what this is going to do to the supply chain.

Speaker 20 And to put this in perspective, when I learned about the 104% tariff on China, that was before it was 125%, where it's at now.

Speaker 20 I was writing an episode called The Old Economy is Dead, which will probably still be coming out on Monday.

Speaker 23 Again, that was the 54%

Speaker 20 rate. I was writing a thing called The Old Economy is Dead at 104%.

Speaker 20 Like things are going to break in the supply chain that only seven people on Earth have ever heard of before. Like entire sectors of the economy are going to be annihilated.

Speaker 20 We're going to see right now, we're probably going to see everyone attempt to root route all shipping from China.

Speaker 20 There's going to be a massive effort to try to reroute it through like literally any other country.

Speaker 20 But again, that's only a solution for like, you know, 90 days. And again, it's not even clear that that can work.

Speaker 20 I mean, I'm already seeing a bunch of reports of small businesses being like, yeah, we're fucked because, and that was with 54% tariffs. And at 125%,

Speaker 20 entire industries are non-viable. Now, it's maybe possible that if it was just these tariffs and

Speaker 20 all Chinese shipping was able to be routed through some other country, maybe

Speaker 20 we would only have a regular economic collapse, like a like, you know, like an early 2000s tech bubble collapse and not like a 2008 one.

Speaker 20 But again, that's assuming that no Motomor tariffs go into effect. Now, the problem is that

Speaker 20 we went through this with the 90-day pauses on the Mexican tariffs and the Canadian tariffs. And then after 90 days, everyone assumed that they weren't going to go to effect again.

Speaker 20 They just went to effect.

Speaker 20 So the odds are that the absolutely catastrophic turf tariffs from like Liberation Day are going to go into effect

Speaker 20 in about 90 days, right? That's probably what's going to happen. There's probably going to be some attempts to negotiate them down.

Speaker 20 But like, again, those absolutely catastrophic tariffs, which are going to just fucking annihilate the entire world economy are probably going to go into effect.

Speaker 20 And, you know, Part of what's happening here, right, is that

Speaker 20 the markets are doing this, they're like dead cat bounce, right?

Speaker 20 And a lot of this is because they haven't actually stopped to think about like how much American manufacturing, and contra every argument everyone is making about this, there is actually a lot of manufacturing still in the U.S., but all of it relies on Chinese imports and various stages of innovative stage of production.

Speaker 20 And they're fucked.

Speaker 20 And I haven't even mentioned yet, by the way,

Speaker 20 the sort of capstone to all of this is that China is doing an 84% retaliatory tariff on all American goods, which is going to just fuck massive portions of American agriculture.

Speaker 20 We've talked a lot on on the show about soybean exports. It's going to be absolutely catastrophic.
We're going to go more into this on Monday.

Speaker 20 But, you know, the thing that's clear from this is that these people don't see the economy as real in the way that you and I do, right? They simply don't.

Speaker 20 You know, we look at the economy as something where we have to have a fucking job so we can go to work, so we can come home and fucking buy food for our families and pay our rent.

Speaker 20 And they think it's a fucking joke, right? They think it's a fucking masculinity signifier. And they think it's like they look at tariff rates and they go, This is just a number on a fucking page.

Speaker 20 And that's why the tariff rate is now 125% on China because it doesn't, none of this shit is real for them at all. Now, do you know what is real?

Speaker 20 No, I the products and services that support this podcast.

Speaker 20 We are back now. Okay, one of the things that I've been seeing a lot of is there are a lot of arguments about whether there is some kind of plan here.

Speaker 20 Trump has claimed that he was going to roll back the tariffs all along. And no, he wasn't.
Just, no, he's just lying. He's just going by the seat of his pants.

Speaker 20 And I can prove that there is no plan here.

Speaker 20 By moving on to the second thing that I want to talk about here, which is a speech given by Council of Economic Advisors Chairman Steve Mirin at the Hudson Institute. So this is, this is again,

Speaker 20 the Council of Economic Advisors is

Speaker 20 a federal agency that is like,

Speaker 20 their job is to provide economic advice to the president, right?

Speaker 20 And their chair gave a speech where he argues, and this is something that like I...

Speaker 20 Jesus fucking Christ, we were talking about, okay,

Speaker 20 the fact that every fucking country on earth has U.S. Treasury bonds.
We were talking about this earlier, right? The status of the U.S. dollar as the global reserve currency.

Speaker 20 This guy is arguing that that is actually a public good that other countries should pay us for.

Speaker 20 He wants to force countries to fucking pay taxes to the United States for holding U.S. Treasury bonds.

Speaker 4 And again, if any nation on earth could pay to have their currency be the global reserve currency, there's no amount they wouldn't pay. Like

Speaker 4 the degree to which this benefits you is ridiculous. Like the fact that you want to charge other people for it is nothing.

Speaker 20 It is like, look, again,

Speaker 20 how this actually works, right? Is that every single other country on earth is forced to buy American debt, which is what a bond is, right? Yeah. And this allows the U.S.

Speaker 20 to carry out even more spending without inflationary effects. Every single other country on Earth.

Speaker 4 Everything is based on this.

Speaker 20 Yes.

Speaker 20 It's all forced on other countries having to stockpile U.S. dollars.

Speaker 20 Like the end, literally the entire global economy, the U.S.'s advantage in the entire global economy is that every single other fucking country on earth needs U.S. dollars.
Part of this is to buy oil.

Speaker 20 And part of this is, again, because the dollar is the fucking reserve currency. It's a currency that fucking trade is done in.
And the asset that you hold is, is like, is the fucking U.S. bond.

Speaker 20 The anthropologist David Graeber called this in his book, Debt the First 5,000 Years, a tribute system that, again, every country in the world is forced to buy U.S. bonds.
The U.S.

Speaker 20 government has just like fairly explicitly, like it did this during the Reagan administration, does this other times, like has just fairly explicitly leaned on countries and been like, you're buying a fucking, a fucking bunch of U.S.

Speaker 20 bonds bonds now right like

Speaker 20 this is this system the status of the dollar of the world reserve currency is the entire lattice that supports and spreads the american empire and these fucking clowns want people to pay taxes on the tribute that they are paying to us this is not donald trump or elon musk right this is the guy these people brought in to be their economist to do economic policy yeah

Speaker 20 There is no limit to their stupidity. There is no rock of sanity upon which the tide of madness will crash.

Speaker 7 Everything we have seen.

Speaker 20 We have seen so far is just a prelude to an infinite abyss of stupidity so mind-numbingly incomprehensible it will shatter our minds like a snowflake in a hurricane.

Speaker 20 You can no longer think to yourself, they cannot possibly be this stupid. They are thinking thoughts even gods cannot comprehend.
They are attempting to drain the sea by shouting at the moon.

Speaker 20 They are trying to wipe their ass with pine cones. There is no five-dimensional plan here.
There is not even a man behind the fucking curtain.

Speaker 20 There is only an infinite sea of cruelty, malice, and stupidity trying to drown us all for the crime of attempting to exist in the world we were born in.

Speaker 20 The reality of the men who rule the American Empire

Speaker 20 is this.

Speaker 20 It is so terrifying that everyone from the most powerful CEOs on the planet to the fucking day traders running the stock market to broke leftist shit posters recoil in horror and try to construct meaning and some kind of like anything, any kind of strategy, any kind of strategic reason why anyone could possibly be doing this.

Speaker 20 Because the existence of a plan, literally any plan, no matter how evil it is, is preferable to this, which is that the largest economy in the world, the most powerful empire the world has ever seen, is being run by the dumbest people who have ever fucking lived.

Speaker 20 And they are doing this because they are evil and they're stupid.

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 25 Yes.

Speaker 4 There's absolutely like, yeah, yeah. No, nothing else to say, really.

Speaker 23 I think one of the things that is underpinning this, which you can like pick up on if you are cursed enough to listen to enough of these speeches and enough of their, of their talking heads and podcasts, is like this reoccurring trend in which these people really need to be victims in order to politically succeed, which is an accusation that's usually thrown against, you know, woke SJWs.

Speaker 23 But like before the election, right, it was this idea that

Speaker 23 because of the dem corrupt elite establishment, you know, everyday Americans are victims of this hidden cabal of Democrats that are ruining everything.

Speaker 23 But now that these people are in charge of

Speaker 23 the United States,

Speaker 23 the people who are victimizing us is just the entire world, right? The entire world is ripping off the United States by using our dollar,

Speaker 25 by

Speaker 23 doing trade with us. They are somehow ripping us off.

Speaker 23 Like we are the victims of this global scheme and it's hurting you you're at the average blue collar worker and it's making women adopt managerial positions and and this is the this is what's actually is the core of of your oppression and even even even when they win even when they control the country they can't let go of this victim status they have to have someone ripping them off in order to justify them doing just incomprehensible stupid power grabs and it it is very much linked to like this like masculine signifier.

Speaker 23 It's very odd. Like the way that people are

Speaker 23 trying to justify losing so much money in the stock market is by posting a clip of some like Australian women doing a TikTok.

Speaker 23 Dancing on TikTok in like an office building. And they're like, well, you know, tariffs are

Speaker 23 much better than having to deal with a women in the office. Am I right?

Speaker 2 Women having a joke.

Speaker 23 This is how they justify it.

Speaker 4 At least we don't have woke. It's It's worth it to not be able to afford food if the woke is.

Speaker 7 The global longhouse.

Speaker 7 The cutting longhouse is burnt down.

Speaker 4 Sure, because the longhouse is burnt down, we're now exposed to the elements and all of our food stores are gone and it's about to snow 18 feet.

Speaker 4 But at least the longhouse that's going to be found in the future.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the longhouse with your they them nephew in it that you hate and owned you at Thanksgiving is gone.

Speaker 23 Shout out to your they them nephew.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess what's what's nibbling? Nibbling is a correct non-binary appellation.

Speaker 23 In other news,

Speaker 23 last week, President Trump said that he would be quote-unquote honored for the president of El Salvador to take U.S.

Speaker 23 citizens, which he calls American grown and born criminals, and put them into SECOT, the terrorism confinement center, which is essentially a prison work camp.

Speaker 4 Yep, that no one gets released from.

Speaker 23 Trump said, quote, why should it stop just at people that cross the border illegally? Unquote.

Speaker 2 But it shouldn't stop there.

Speaker 23 It shouldn't be there at all. And as James already mentioned, 75% of the immigrants sent to Seacott don't have a criminal conviction.
These people are not criminals.

Speaker 23 Now, a few days later, the White House press secretary reiterated that this is something that Trump is seriously discussing, both publicly and privately.

Speaker 52 So the president has discussed this idea quite a few times publicly. He's also discussed it privately.
You're referring to the president's idea for American citizens to potentially be deported.

Speaker 52 These would be heinous, violent criminals who have broken our nation's laws repeatedly. And these are violent, repeat offenders in American streets.

Speaker 52 The president has said, if it's legal, right, if there is a legal pathway to do that, he's not sure. We are not sure if there is.

Speaker 52 It's an idea that he has simply floated and has discussed very publicly as in the effort of transparency.

Speaker 23 Now, one of the last things we're going to discuss is an update on DHS and ICE efforts to deport students across the country.

Speaker 23 Me and James did an episode last week, which is still pretty relevant, but all of the numbers have increased dramatically since that episode.

Speaker 23 As of Tuesday night, April 8th, 92 student visas have been revoked at California universities, 50 at UC campuses, and 36 at California State University campuses, with six more at Stanford.

Speaker 23 Also, as of April 8th, 50 student visas have been revoked at Arizona State University, with multiple students now in ICE detention.

Speaker 23 Lawyers for these students believe that upwards of a thousand visas have been revoked across the country.

Speaker 23 A map on insidehireed.com shows 419 confirmed instances of student visas, or in some cases, green cards, being revoked by Secretary of State, Mark Rubio across 34 states.

Speaker 23 And as of Wednesday, April 9th, visas for 18 international students have been revoked at the University of Utah.

Speaker 23 These students and recent graduates received letters from the Trump administration instructing them to quote unquote self-deport immediately.

Speaker 23 At Utah State University, more than 30 students have been impacted, according to the university administration.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm aware of at least one UCSD student who was detained at the border and immediately deported. I'm also aware that UCOP, UC Office of the President, made a statement.

Speaker 2 about the impact of service terminations across its campuses.

Speaker 2 But the UCSD Guardian, in a dub for student journalism, reported that UCSD convened an emergency meeting meeting before this of faculty and it knew about the revocations or the the service changes right the the revocation of their student status and it was reluctant to act because it hadn't received guidance from ucop yet so we're seeing this from a lot of university uh like administrations right they don't know how to respond i did see that the university of arizona was helping fund some of the legal fees of their students which is more than many universities are doing as of now there seems to be no pattern of prior for the people who have had their statuses changed.

Speaker 2 But in some cases, it seems that in some university systems, all of the people who have lost their status are either Chinese, Indian, or from majority Muslim countries.

Speaker 20 One other thing I wanted to close out this episode on. So we have an episode out about this already.

Speaker 20 One of the things ICE has been doing has been targeting migrant farm worker labor organizers. They have

Speaker 20 basically just kidnapped, like just straight up broke this guy's window in his car and dragged him out um a guy named alfredo juarez who's known as laylo um he is an organizer for familias unidas por la justicia in uh in washington

Speaker 20 and there is going to be a protest this will be saturday the 12th that'll be tomorrow as you're listening to this on friday um at portland city hall at 2 p.m uh organizers are also asking that you call the washington attorney general to demand pressure be put on everyone to release him um

Speaker 20 Yeah, if you want to hear more about that, there is, I have an interview with an organizer who works with them.

Speaker 20 And

Speaker 20 yeah, it's real fucking bad.

Speaker 20 The scale of the repression has been increasing. It's not undefeatable.
And this is a, you know, this is a

Speaker 20 this is a tangible thing that you can do to try to stop them.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 20 yeah, it requires movement now. And yeah, do this now before it gets worse.

Speaker 23 To update another topic of the episode me and James did last week, we mentioned that DHS was seeking input for installing a new program to screen the social media activity of people applying for immigration benefits for what they label as anti-Semitism.

Speaker 23 And this policy is now in effect.

Speaker 23 This applies to quote-unquote aliens applying for lawful permanent resident status, foreign students, and aliens affiliated with educational institutions, possibly also people applying for citizenship.

Speaker 23 To quote the DHS Assistant Secretary of Public Affairs, Tricia McLaughlin, quote, there's no room in the United States for the rest of the world's terrorist sympathizers, and we are under no obligation to admit them or let them stay here.

Speaker 23 Secretary Noam has made it clear that anyone who thinks they can come to America and hide behind the First Amendment to advocate for anti-Semitic violence and terrorism, think again, you are not welcome here, unquote.

Speaker 23 The webpage for this new policy states, under this guidance, USCIS will consider social media content that indicates an alien endorsing, espousing, promoting, or supporting anti-Semitic terrorism, anti-Semitic terrorist organizations, or other anti-Semitic activity as a negative factor in any discretionary analysis when adjudicating immigration benefit requests.

Speaker 23 So essentially, this means that if you've posted anything that is in support of Palestine or criticizes the Israeli government, this will be now used against you if you are applying for a visa, if you are applying for a green card, if you're applying for citizenship and already live in this country as a permanent resident, lawfully so.

Speaker 23 Just a wider net of social media surveillance.

Speaker 23 404 Media put out a good article on Wednesday about a palantir system that ICE is using to look for immigrants and people in this country, which allows them to select for specific attributes with a pretty intense filtering system.

Speaker 23 So yeah, this is ongoing and we will continue to report as such.

Speaker 7 Yeah, all right, everybody.

Speaker 4 Well, until next week, please don't go to an El Salvadoran prison camp if you can avoid it.

Speaker 23 We reported the news.

Speaker 2 There it is.

Speaker 22 Great.

Speaker 4 We reported the news.

Speaker 4 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

Speaker 1 If Could Happen Here is a production of CoolZone Media.

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Speaker 1 You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

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