It Could Happen Here Weekly 189

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Speaker 6 cool Zone Media Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode.

Speaker 6 So every episode of of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

Speaker 6 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions.

Speaker 6 Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast that is, in many cases, about organizing. I am your host, Mia Wong, and with me is one of the most experienced organizers I know, Margaret Killjoy.

Speaker 5 Oh, no.

Speaker 5 Hi.

Speaker 6 i'm a little out of practice but i have done it a lot you know mark margaret says this and also has been doing for like one bazillion years and this is this is and i will say this the the sign of you that you are running into a good organizer is when you talk to them about their organizing and they immediately start downplaying it that's when you know that you haven't captured a good organizer if they start immediately going i'm the best organizer in the world run like hell this is an asshole who sucks

Speaker 6 Someone who's like, ah, if I did this a million years ago, I'm not good at it. I didn't

Speaker 6 matter.

Speaker 6 Very good organizer. Thank you.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 I remember once I went to a thing that was put on, and there was this, they were kind of turfy people who were coming through, and we didn't totally know that right away.

Speaker 5 And their pitch about why they were such a good, experienced organizers is one of them was like, and this person has been organizing for more than three years.

Speaker 6 And it was just like, more than three years.

Speaker 28 Okay.

Speaker 5 Every person you are giving this talk to has done this for at least three times as long as that

Speaker 6 like and don't get me wrong if you're listening and you've been organizing for three years you've learned a lot i'm not trying to tell you that you're a bad organizer you might be a better organizer and someone's been doing it longer but don't use that as your selling point anyway that's that's very funny yeah so okay this episode we are asking you a very very important question Okay, you want to change something about the world.

Speaker 6 I don't know what that thing is.

Speaker 6 That is for you to determine. The question that you need to be asking is, are you organizing because you want to feel cool?

Speaker 6 Or are you organizing because you want whatever you're doing to fucking work? Yeah.

Speaker 6 And if you want your organizing to work, literally no matter what it is, you actually need to listen to this episode and you need to have some rudimentary knowledge of the thing we are about to talk about.

Speaker 6 Because if you do not, your organizing will fail.

Speaker 6 If you cannot do this, the thing we're going to talk about in this episode, if you cannot do this, everything else you know, all of your experience, all of your knowledge, all of your passion, all of it is fucking useless because the actual work of organizing is incredibly unglamorous.

Speaker 6 It is unsexy. A lot of it is very time consuming.
A lot of it is not cool. It is you sitting there and talking to a bunch of people.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 And if you want your movement to succeed, you have to be able to do this kind of like groundwork logistical work because if you don't, it won't work.

Speaker 6 So what we are going to teach you the very, very, very, very basics of in this episode is a social technology that has been developed over the course of literal centuries of movements, right?

Speaker 6 This is something that has been passed down and refined like through generations and generations of organizers. I mean, I could do a genealogy of this.

Speaker 6 A lot of the modern stuff sort of came through the Quakers, moved through the civil rights movements, moved through the anti-war movements, moved through like in Vietnam, moved through a whole bunch of other movements.

Speaker 6 like to be passed down to you today. This is a complicated social technology.
It does not sound complicated. If you do not know how to do this,

Speaker 6 it is impossible to try to replicate on the fly. And that is, we are going to explain to you the very basics of how to run a meeting.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 I really like this way of phrasing it, that it's a technology. Like it's a way of applying ideas to get something to happen.

Speaker 5 Even if a lot of it is instinctive, there is an art to it. But like, yeah, no, there's.
There's stuff you can like learn and apply. And it's

Speaker 28 technology is a good way of framing it.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 And and it's one of these things where you know you can kind of if you don't know how to do this and you have a group of people you can kind of sort of maybe approximate something that is a little bit functional and the moment it runs into a stress point it will collapse completely and this is a thing that like you know i i have talked to i have done a lot of these i have talked to a lot of people who've done this i have like i have been in rooms people knew how to run meetings i've been in rooms people didn't know how to run meetings i have talked to a bunch of people who have been in rooms who don't know how to run meetings And like, there are rooms of people with collectively hundreds of PhDs.

Speaker 6 And because nobody in the room knew how to fucking run a meeting, complete disaster. Their organizing didn't work.
Yeah. Right.

Speaker 6 You have to be able to do this. And it doesn't really matter.

Speaker 6 You know, we're not going to get that much into like what mechanism you're using to make decisions because this is, this is like even like a layer below that.

Speaker 6 And so this is not that you can use it, you know, regardless of whether you're doing consensus and like, you know, like, and I think that like, if you're trying trying to make a decision as a group, right, and you're trying to get everyone to want to do the thing and do it, I think that some version of consensus is a good idea, but this can be for a sort of just like a, you know, like a majority world democratic process.

Speaker 6 Whatever process you are using to decide things, you need some kind of structure thing there.

Speaker 6 Otherwise, it's just not going to function. Like none of it will.

Speaker 5 What's wild to me is that it's almost like the important thing is that there is a structure. There's so many different structures you can use.
Like when we come at this, I don't actually know.

Speaker 5 I'm the podcast idiot on this episode. Mia is going to explain stuff to me.
But like, there's a lot of different ways to do this. And the important way, the important thing is that you do one of them.

Speaker 5 Like, there are ways that I think are better or worse, right?

Speaker 5 But you do actually need to create a structure and move forward with that structure in order to get anything done, which is the whole secret of organizing.

Speaker 5 Like, that is what organizing is, is you actually have to say, not only do I want something to get done, but I'm going to figure out the steps by which to get that done.

Speaker 5 And it, it also applies to meetings, yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and like that kind of undergirding thing of figuring out how you're going to do it, right?

Speaker 6 Like that, that's the part of organizing that, as you're saying, it's like nothing works without it because it is like half of what organizing is.

Speaker 6 And otherwise, you are just saying things into the wind. And admittedly, my job is to say things into the wind.
So it's hope you do it.

Speaker 6 So like, you know, I have a little bit of respect for that, but also you need to have some way of getting other people to do things.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's, it's, it's like a, when you sit around with your friends and and are like, oh, someone should do this. No one's actually named someone.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 You know, I mean, somewhere there's a non-binary person somewhere.

Speaker 6 But shout outs to someone. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 If you're listening, someone, congratulations, you are a master level troll. But like my friend Don't Ask.
Her name was Don't Ask. It's great.
Anyway, whatever.

Speaker 5 But but someone needs to get something done. And if you leave a thing being like, oh, someone should do this, you didn't organize.
You have to say,

Speaker 5 this is what the following people are doing. Yep.
Also, shout out also to everyone who has been in meetings with me and are like, why is Mark? I'm insufferable in meetings.

Speaker 6 I try really hard, but anyway, whatever.

Speaker 6 Oh, God. Okay.
Okay. So this largely is going to be like how to run a meeting 101.
We're going to start at like 000, which is you need a place to meet.

Speaker 6 And that place to meet has to be accessible to everyone who's trying to go to the meeting. This is a thing that people screw up up a lot.

Speaker 6 It is not that hard to find a place that's accessible for everyone to go. You can do this.

Speaker 6 There are lots of places you can have meetings depending on how sensitive the meeting is, you know, how formal and informal it is. I've done meetings in restaurants and meetings in bars.

Speaker 6 I have them in libraries. People use churches sometimes, like queer centers, union halls, parks.

Speaker 5 I want to shit talk bars really quickly.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I don't think bars is a great idea, but.

Speaker 5 I don't think it's accessible to people who are under 21, and I don't think it's accessible to people who have problems being around drinking.

Speaker 5 That said, they happen there, and I'm not trying to say you're bad for having had meetings there, but I just want to say that.

Speaker 6 Yeah, bars is one that like people go to a lot. And like, yeah, there's definitely issues with it.
Right. But I don't know, like, you can have them in people's houses.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 Sometimes you can like go into like a mesa or whatever. You can go have a meeting there.
You can get people to just like go out somewhere and do it. You know, I don't know.

Speaker 6 Like you, you, you, you are capable of thinking of lots of places where you could have meetings, but you actually do need to have a location.

Speaker 6 And this is actually, again, I've talked about this before, but it's like one of the organizing things that's actually really important is like knowing how to get a room for a meeting or get a room for something to happen.

Speaker 6 You have to be able to do this. This is like 000.
Like, okay,

Speaker 6 you know, okay, so you've now achieved this. And congratulations, you clowns have now achieved a location.

Speaker 6 I am going to stick a provisional thing in here, which is,

Speaker 6 this is jumping the gun a little bit, but I need to put in here, do not use Robert's Rules of Order. Order.

Speaker 6 One of the things you will be told, and if you have been in organizations before, a lot of them use a thing called Robert's Rules of Orders, which is this old, like incredibly elaborate set of parliamentary procedures.

Speaker 6 Do not use them. They suck.

Speaker 6 And this gets into before we can even talk about what a meeting is, right, and how you do it.

Speaker 6 You really, really do not want your meetings to get bogged down in everyone having to learn one million lines of parliamentary procedure.

Speaker 6 And this is a problem for any meeting technology that you use because they all do involve a little bit of technical stuff because you have to get people to be able to do things. Totally.

Speaker 6 But the thing with Rubber Tools of Order is that like, it's like hundreds of pages, right?

Speaker 6 And in those hundreds of pages are the recipe for one asshole to derail your entire meeting by doing a whole bunch of unhinged parliamentary shit. I have seen this happen.
It sucks.

Speaker 6 This is something that you can technically do in any meeting structure,

Speaker 6 but the more opaque the rules of the meeting are, the easier the shit is to do. And the harder it is to be like, please stop.

Speaker 5 Yeah, there's, you have to have a certain amount of flexibility in the way that you do things because every system, it's the problem with law as a concept, right?

Speaker 5 Is every system can, you can find loopholes.

Speaker 5 And anyone who's been in a lot of meetings has seen people learn how to abuse the process in order to get their position to win by making everyone else too tired to continue or to use up all of the space in the room or, you know, whatever.

Speaker 5 But I think that, yeah, this idea that the rules that are used in your meeting, I think that a very, a good facilitator, which is something that I tend to believe in for meetings, is capable of explaining the process in such a way that even when a lot of people come who are not familiar with the process, they will leave familiar with the process.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 Like to that sort of end, if you need a like, okay, we need a written procedure thing, the thing I would recommend is called Rusty's Rules of Order, which is an unbelievably pared-down version of Robert's Rules of Order that was like specifically developed to be used in like union circles and activist circles.

Speaker 6 And it's like, the total PDF of it is 25 pages. That makes it sound way longer than it actually is.
Like several of those pages are like a glossary and like the cover, it's very easy to read.

Speaker 6 It's easy to understand. If you have to use a like, this is a formalized procedure, do Rusty's, don't do Roberts.

Speaker 6 This is just a, I need to do this before we say anything else because a bunch of people are going to push you to use this and it sucks.

Speaker 6 So having gotten that out of the way, we can now get into, okay, things for meetings.

Speaker 5 Oh, I was supposed to make a joke about at the top of all this. I'm sorry, everyone.
Everyone has been waiting for me to make this joke, I'm certain.

Speaker 5 But Mia, which one of us is going to keep stack during this meeting so that we know who can talk?

Speaker 6 Products and services who support this podcast are going to keep stack, and we're going to go to the right the fuck now.

Speaker 6 We are

Speaker 6 back.

Speaker 5 And I really just want to say, as timekeeper, I'm a little bit upset about how much time that those ads used during the meeting.

Speaker 6 And if we can god fucking damn it

Speaker 6 okay we we we will explain what a stack is and what a time sorry is in a second however comma so things you need to do at the very start of a meeting you need to take like two minutes to do this but you need to explain how the meeting fucking works and you need to assign everyone roles and you can't assume that everyone who is going to be in this meeting understands how the rules work like you cannot and this is something i've run into is like you can't assume that everyone understands what your hand signals are, or even just basic, like everyone has been in a thing before and understands what a stack is, right?

Speaker 6 You can't assume that

Speaker 6 unless you know everyone in the room.

Speaker 6 And more than that, like unless you know everyone's level of experience in the room and you've been in meetings with them before, like you can't assume the level of knowledge that everyone has.

Speaker 6 And I have watched these processes not work because people just did that. And then a bunch of people in the room were like, what the fuck is going on?

Speaker 6 So you need to, at the start of the meeting, explain how the meeting is going to work, like at least a little bit. This doesn't have to to be super formal.

Speaker 6 This can be like fucking two minutes of like, we're going to have a stack, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 5 And for anyone, just so you know what we're saying right now, we'll explain stack more. That is the order in which people talk.

Speaker 5 It is a way of like keeping track of the line of who's going to talk when.

Speaker 6 Yeah. I'm realizing this explanation is jumping around a little bit, but you need to make sure that everyone understands how the meeting is supposed to work.

Speaker 6 And, you know, usually that's really quick. Sometimes someone will just not know something and then, okay, you explain it to them and that's like fine and chill.

Speaker 6 And like, I don't know, I remember being a little tiny baby anarchist and like not knowing anything and going to my first meeting and like people were talking about restorative justice.

Speaker 6 And I was like, hi, what's restorative justice? I'm like a little tiny child. I don't know anything.

Speaker 6 And they explained it and it was like chill and good. And you can just do this and it helps people feel included.
And

Speaker 6 totally. Okay.
So general meeting facilitation. Things you need.
You need one. an agenda.
An agenda is what the fuck are you doing?

Speaker 6 And generally speaking, secondarily, you want to try to have time planned out because one of the failure modes of a meeting is the meeting goes for fucking 30 hours and everyone's miserable.

Speaker 6 So you generally want to have an agenda that has what you're going to talk about and then kind of

Speaker 6 guidelines roughly for how long you think it'll take to talk about the thing.

Speaker 6 We'll get more into that in a second. Sometimes people create the agenda beforehand.

Speaker 6 Sometimes you start, you set the agenda at the beginning of the meeting, but like you do want an agenda so people know what you're doing.

Speaker 5 Yeah, and it should be somewhere that everyone can see on a whiteboard

Speaker 5 or like, I guess in a Zoom meeting notes or a doc that everyone has open.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah. You want to make sure everyone has it.
Okay. And this is the point where we need to talk about roles.

Speaker 6 So part of the technology for this, right, and the stack is a big piece of technology to keep track of who's talking, but a big part of what the technology of this is, is a bunch of roles that you assign people.

Speaker 6 And that ideally everyone rotates through. So you learn how to do all of them.
And so to prevent people from sort of concentrating power by like monopolizing one role.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 the first role we need to talk about, and this is, I don't know if the big one's the right one, but this is the one that I think people know kind of, I don't know if intuitively understand is the right word, but like this is the one that there are usually versions of in a meeting.

Speaker 6 And a lot of those versions are bad is a facilitator. Yeah.

Speaker 6 So, okay, my, my explanation of what a facilitator is, and Morgan, I'm going to ask you for yours too, because I don't know.

Speaker 6 So as a facilitator, your job is to like point to the agenda and go, okay, we're talking about this. Your job is to move people through discussions.

Speaker 6 Your job is to try to get people to a consensus on what you're doing.

Speaker 6 And your job is to stop people from giving speeches.

Speaker 6 And this is, I'm going to take a little digression here, which is, okay, we've been talking about ways meetings fail, right? Number one, no one can go to it.

Speaker 6 That's way a meeting fails. Two.
You don't have an agenda and everyone, it just goes off the rails and no one has any idea what you're supposed to be meeting about.

Speaker 6 Three, and this is a huge one, is that one of the biggest ways that meetings fail, and I have seen this in every single context I have ever worked in, is that someone, and it is usually a dude, it's almost always a dude.

Speaker 6 It can not be a dude, but it's usually a dude, just keeps talking and keeps talking and keeps talking and will not shut the fuck up and nothing gets done because the entire beating is one hour of this guy just yabbering.

Speaker 6 Yep.

Speaker 6 And one of your most important jobs as the facilitator, and this is genuinely a huge huge part of the social technology of the structure of meetings is to make sure that your meeting is not one person talking.

Speaker 6 Yeah. This is why this exists.
Yeah. Like,

Speaker 6 and you know, if you want to get into the, the, the sort of dire part of this, right? If you do not stop all of your meetings from being one annoying guy talking, your projects will fail.

Speaker 6 You must do this. This is the one thing here that is like, you absolutely, positively must get this guy to stop talking.

Speaker 5 I think that the important thing to think about a facilitator is that most people come from a background of assumed authoritarian politics.

Speaker 5 It's assumed politics where someone is in charge. Even our democracies are built around this idea that you elect someone to tell you what to do.

Speaker 5 When we talk about meetings, we are talking about building bottom-up structures.

Speaker 5 Even when we later, I think we'll end up talking maybe a different episode or something about larger structures you can build up out of these sort of local assemblies or meetings.

Speaker 5 The idea is that everyone is empowered.

Speaker 5 And so because we're really used to this competitive decision-making around who is in charge, we struggle a little bit adapting to egalitarian meetings and also to

Speaker 5 consensus isn't the only way to make decisions, but people struggle with consensus because they'll think of that at meaning 100% vote where everyone votes for the same thing. And that's a mistake.

Speaker 5 And so we think of the facilitator accidentally as the leader. And they are a leader in the sense of a whatever.
You could use the word leader in a lot of ways.

Speaker 5 And some of them are positive and not authoritarian.

Speaker 5 And so in that context, they are leading people through the meeting, but they are absolutely not only not the decision maker, they are less the decision maker than everyone else.

Speaker 5 Choosing to be a facilitator of a meeting is choosing to go in and say, I'm not actually even going to push for my side.

Speaker 5 Unless you are in a like.

Speaker 5 tight-knit enough group where everyone knows each other and everyone kind of knows, oh, in this group, Margaret's opinion is always going to to be this and so-and-so's opinion is always going to be this.

Speaker 5 If you know people really well, you can kind of still be both facilitator and a participant. But by and large, when you are the facilitator, your job is to help the decision form.

Speaker 5 It is to help take what people are saying and say, okay, this seems like what we're saying.

Speaker 5 Is this the proposal? And not say, I think this is the proposal, but say, is this the proposal? And yeah, it is to keep people on track.

Speaker 5 And every meeting is going to have different i really like a strong facilitator um i really like someone who's going to shut me up i really like someone who's like yeah that's not what we're talking about right now and it it's hard because your feelings get hurt like especially for example someone says a joke and then someone else says a joke and then you're the third person and you say the joke too and the facilitator's like yeah that's enough of that we got to keep going You're the third person who said the joke and you're like, why am I getting yelled at?

Speaker 5 And the other two people didn't. Yeah.
And that's the wrong way to look at it. We're not yelling at anyone.
We're trying to keep things moving forward.

Speaker 5 And you're absolutely right also about the people grandstanding.

Speaker 5 And, you know, a particular habit that men often have, especially cis men, is that they'll come in and be like, they'll listen to what someone else says and then repeat it louder and then be like, yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 5 And as if it's their idea. And they don't even realize they're doing it.
It's kind of cute.

Speaker 5 But there's a lot of that you can learn about yourself by going into these meetings and learning about your own habits and what you've been enculturated to do and it shouldn't be about shaming people around this as long as people are able to like kind of get called in and listen to it and one of the things that I think

Speaker 5 when you teach the meeting at the beginning of the meeting you also explain some of this social stuff and you say like you know we believe in a step up step back thing if you are someone who generally feels comfortable talking in large groups we invite you to step back a little bit and if you're not someone who generally feels comfortable expressing your opinion in groups, we invite you to step up.

Speaker 6 Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 5 Do you know what also needs to learn to step up? Is I actually think we don't get enough advertising in our lives.

Speaker 6 I think that the people who are afraid to take up space are the people who pay a lot of money. I'm using a block.
I'm using a block.

Speaker 6 It's all right, babe.

Speaker 5 It's a consensus.

Speaker 6 Here's ads.

Speaker 6 We are back.

Speaker 6 I think this is also, you know, as we've talked about, sort of, in some ways, in a lot of ways, like how important the role of the facilitator is, this is a role you need to rotate

Speaker 6 because that is a role. It's like those are skills that everyone needs.
Like, if everyone knows, did you just do the just at the hand? I did. I did.

Speaker 6 But I don't know whether people still do it, metal hands versus twinkle fingers.

Speaker 6 Sorry, but okay. This is complete.
Unfortunately, podcasting is an audio medium. So all of you just missed me losing my mind because Margaret did Margaret did one of the hand signs for agreement.

Speaker 6 I was like, shit. God damn it.
Okay.

Speaker 6 Sorry, we were talking about meetings.

Speaker 5 It just came naturally.

Speaker 6 Yeah, well, we'll get the hand signs later. But like, you know, you actually do, all of these things should be rotating.

Speaker 6 And you should be teaching everyone to be able to do all of the facilitation roles because...

Speaker 6 A, okay, there's lots of reasons for this, right? One facilitation in particular can be kind of dangerous because

Speaker 6 there's a real risk of someone who is facilitating deciding that they're the leader and they're going to steer how everything goes and they're and they're going to make their decisions.

Speaker 6 And by rotating that around, it becomes a lot easier to not have that happen.

Speaker 6 And also doing a role makes you a more active participant in the meeting a lot of times. It depends on the role, obviously, but like it's a way to get people, like keep everyone engaged in a thing.

Speaker 6 That's a good point. Thank you.

Speaker 6 stole this from my friend who is going to remain nameless. But if you're out there, I love you.

Speaker 5 Your friend's name is nameless. I understand.

Speaker 6 Yeah, friend's name is the nameless child.

Speaker 5 Somewhere there's someone whose name is the Omalas kid.

Speaker 6 And anyway, whatever. Anyway, okay.
He's good. Okay.

Speaker 6 Yeah. But the other thing about it, right, is the more everyone knows about these skills, the more effective of a participant and the more effective you can be at making decisions in the meeting.

Speaker 6 Like the more everyone understands how the process works and knows how to do it and knows how to...

Speaker 6 Because being in a meeting and being in community with other people and making decisions together is a skill. And we don't have it.

Speaker 6 There's this great David Graeber, the anthropologist David Graeber, who actually spent a lot of time like writing about these meetings in a way that doesn't usually happen.

Speaker 5 He has an anthropologist.

Speaker 6 Yeah, as an anthropologist, right? Because he was both an activist and an anthropologist. And he has this great line where he says, Americans are great at communism and terrible at democracy.

Speaker 6 Which is that they're really, really good at doing things each according to their need and from each according to their ability.

Speaker 6 Like if you try to organize a barbecue, everyone can do the things through the barbecue, but no one knows how to make decisions together because that's a skill. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And the more you're rotating through all the roles and the more you understand how everything works, and the more you understand, you know, how to do the facilitation stuff of like

Speaker 6 getting everyone to figure out what the thing that they want is and how to express that and how to, like, and how, how to work together.

Speaker 6 The more you understand that as like a person who's not facilitating, the more you can understand like how to actually do democracy. Yeah.
And it rules.

Speaker 5 And there's there's also the fact that like, if you are indispensable to your group, you've actually failed your group. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Especially when you're talking about stuff like activism that has a certain risk.

Speaker 5 If you are the only medic in your affinity group, that is a problem because if you get arrested, now there's no medic.

Speaker 5 If you're the only facilitator who is a very skilled facilitator, what happens when you're sick or in jail and you all have a very intense meeting that you have to do and you need a skilled facilitator?

Speaker 5 Not that everyone needs to be equal in in all skills within a given group, but you

Speaker 5 need to learn to,

Speaker 5 if you are very good at something, your job is to make someone else very good at it too.

Speaker 6 That's the thing both for meetings and the way it was explained to me, and this is a more kind of,

Speaker 6 I don't know what term you'd use for it, but it was taught to me as your job is to organize yourself out of a job. Yeah, totally.

Speaker 6 Okay, so we're going to move on to the second role, which is the stack taker. So, okay, the stack.
This,

Speaker 6 when I first started talking about this as a social tech, as a social technology, the thing I specifically meant was the stack.

Speaker 6 And then eventually I was like, no, this is actually the whole process. But the stack,

Speaker 6 very, very simple invention. But if you don't have it, it's a disaster.
The stack, as we've said before, is just literally a list of names of who's going to talk in what order.

Speaker 6 Someone raises their hand, they get added to the stack. Yep.
That is very simple. It is also absolutely crucial to making sure a meeting runs at all.

Speaker 6 Most groups tend to use some variation of what's called a progressive stack, where, you know, this is part of we were talking about earlier of like step forward and step back.

Speaker 6 But when you're compiling a stack, you want to have the people who speak less in front.

Speaker 6 And this works sort of in two ways, right? One is it's,

Speaker 6 okay, so if there's someone who's not like a cis white dude and who is trying to say something, you probably want them to say something because they are less likely to be the one who says something.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Like just because of the way that sort of whiteness is structured, because of the way that like masculinity is structured because of the way that these things work so you want to give opportunities to speak to people who like don't usually get heard and then also if someone just like hasn't been talking in a meeting and they want to say something and that's also part of sort of facilitation and sometimes i know that this is the thing that like a role that i've seen passed out between a bunch of different roles and i guess everyone kind of has a responsibility to do this but if there's someone in a meeting who has not been saying anything it's generally a good idea to be like, hey, are you okay?

Speaker 6 And also like,

Speaker 6 more importantly, to some extent than are you okay? Of like, what do you think about this?

Speaker 5 Yeah, although I do think that there's a little bit of a like, some people don't want to specifically be called on in that way.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And so that's kind of a like learning to read the room skill

Speaker 5 about when you want to encourage people to step up versus other people who are like, no, I don't have anything particular to say and I don't want to get, you know, singled out.

Speaker 5 I think that in smaller meetings, sometimes the facilitator can keep stack. Larger meetings, meetings, that's a terrible plan.

Speaker 6 Yeah, large meetings, you need to. You can't have them both be doing it.

Speaker 5 Yeah, because you need someone keeping track of who's raising their hands when and things like that. Sometimes you're actually even writing the stack on a whiteboard so people can see.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah, you've like a piece of paper. Yeah.

Speaker 5 I have been in meetings that sort of self-facilitate fairly effectively in smaller groups, where a thing that people can do is if

Speaker 5 they have a thing they want to say, they hold up one finger and they keep that finger up. And if someone else has something that they want to say, they put up two fingers.

Speaker 5 And then if someone else has something they want to say, they put up three fingers. And so you can have this method by which people track their own stack, but this is a small group thing.

Speaker 5 This is not a, and this is a people who know each other and know how to do the balancing that we're talking about, about making sure everyone gets heard.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And I think part of this also that's important to remember is like, this is like 101.

Speaker 5 Oh, yeah, sorry. That's an advanced skill.

Speaker 6 Kind of. And I'm introducing some things that are probably more advanced than 101.

Speaker 6 Like, like the like, okay, figuring out why someone isn't comfortable talking on a like, this person wants to talk, but doesn't feel comfortable to.

Speaker 6 And if you ask them, they will say something and this person doesn't feel comfortable talking because they don't want to talk. That's kind of a more advanced thing.
Fair enough.

Speaker 6 I guess we should talk about hand gestures here, which is that, okay, over the course of these meetings, one of the, over the course of like movements, one of the things that is built up is hand gestures because they can be a very effective way of,

Speaker 6 you know, someone expressing something without having to talk over someone else. This is, I don't know, this is the 101.
I'm not going to teach hand gestures because everyone has different ones.

Speaker 6 And there are some that are pretty universal, but like the number of different gestures I've seen for like direct response

Speaker 6 and shit, like it is the thing that like, like, hand gestures can work and can be really efficient. Yeah, see, you're doing one of the hand gestures.
You're doing one of the

Speaker 5 triangle with your hand.

Speaker 6 Oh, it's part of process. Fuck, I forgot about point of process.
Oh, no.

Speaker 6 There's all of this very, very complicated stuff. It's not that complicated, but like point of process sucks.
Like that shit's actually complicated.

Speaker 5 I'm actually derailing again. I'm so sorry.
This is an example. If there was a facilitator in this call, they would be making me shut up is what's happening.

Speaker 6 Yeah, no, but this is actually like,

Speaker 6 this is the one time I've ever wished there was like video so you could see the hand gestures. Cause like the thing about this, right, is once you are good at meetings.

Speaker 6 And like, if you have people who do this and you talk about what the hand gestures are beforehand, that's also important.

Speaker 6 You can't, if even if, if you're very good at meetings and you're still listening to this episode for some reason, I mean, I don't know, it's a good episode, but like, you can't assume that everyone knows what your hand gestures are.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And sometimes people have different hand gestures for different things.

Speaker 6 Sometimes you have contextual hand gestures for like, like there are, like, okay, like you're, if you are trying to meet in the dark,

Speaker 6 your, your, your, your hand gestures don't work, right? This is also stolen from another friend, right? Like, sometimes you need to use snaps for that because, so that you can hear, right?

Speaker 6 Like, well, all of this is to say that, like, the stuff with hand gestures it can make your meetings a lot more effective this is a thing you can do if everyone in the group understands how they work um i'm not going to be like teaching you sets of hand gestures here because i can't guarantee that any gesture i teach you will be the one that people use can i can i though like speed run the concepts of some of them because i think they're useful to understand yeah yeah because it's hard to imagine when you imagine meetings i think about this a lot because i write meetings into fiction which is a very hard thing to do and make them entertaining because they're also hard to be entertained in by when you're in them um unless they're contentious but

Speaker 5 there are certain things that you learn derail meetings and there are ways in which by using hand gestures you can avoid having more people speak and the single most important and common one is a way of saying i agree and so that way people yeah when they really want to say something but they're not on stack and they get really frustrated they can do that hand gesture which you know is very easy to make fun of uh you know when i was coming up it was twinkle fingers where you waggle your fingers And then we were like punk.

Speaker 5 So we did metal fingers instead, which was literally the same thing, but reverse.

Speaker 6 It's kind of like the look that you do when you like really like music.

Speaker 5 And it's actually sort of like mimicking playing a guitar.

Speaker 5 And so that's a very important concept. And sometimes people use snaps, although sometimes people prefer non-audio and other people prefer audio.

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 sometimes that's like, and that's that's part of what I was talking about. Like, like, that's, that's dependent on who's in the room and what the room is and like stuff like that.

Speaker 5 But I think that a, a, I agree without needing to say anything is essential yeah yeah that's a good one other ones to just know of is that there are things like people will say like please move this along it's a way of saying hey facilitator please shut this person up usually or can we talk about something else um there's ones that are uh direct response which is saying i would like to jump stack because this person has just insulted the honor of my family or whatever

Speaker 5 and it's like it's up to the facilitator to decide whether to do these another one is point of process which is saying like hey i actually don't want to talk about the thing we're talking about.

Speaker 5 I want to talk about how the meeting is going. Meetings get real meta and it's real frustrating.
Anyway, so it's worth knowing that this is part of the technology.

Speaker 5 It seems cringy from the outside, but like our other options, I mean, there are other technologies about decision making that people have developed, but like actually living democratic lives in which we all have a say in our decisions.

Speaker 5 sometimes means that we go to meetings and uh and we can actually kind of learn to i'm talking shit on meetings but that's it.

Speaker 5 Meetings are also a ways to get to know your friends and express yourself and get things done.

Speaker 6 Yeah. You know, as much as I've been talking about being boring, like I've had things that were technically organizing meetings that were like some of the most transformational experiences of my life.

Speaker 6 Totally. Because me and a bunch of people who, you know, a bunch of people really close to me like came together and we figured out how to do something.

Speaker 6 And there is a beauty.

Speaker 6 there that is and this is partially why it's hard to talk about these things right because like the the technical process of it like the technical description of what we're saying

Speaker 6 is at the same time being used to do something that can only be described in sort of poetic terms yeah like the the the actual experience of like you and a bunch of other people coming together to do something and figuring out how to do it and fucking doing it is it is a transcendent act of creation yeah

Speaker 6 And these are like, you know, yeah, like it doesn't like the fucking hammers and shovels and like fucking slide rules that you use to construct something don't look very pretty.

Speaker 6 And then at the end of it, you've built something together and it's beautiful.

Speaker 5 Yeah, no, it's, it's the other side of the coin of the first time you watch the police run away from you. Yeah.

Speaker 5 It is a way of coming together with other people to accomplish something and make something powerful is meetings.

Speaker 5 And it is also, it's interesting because we talk about how men will often take up too much space in meetings.

Speaker 5 This is not a universal thing anytime we say this kind of thing, but it is actually often feminized labor because it's this invisibilized labor that happens behind the scenes that is not as sexy, right?

Speaker 5 And is about just actually hearing people out. It is like conflict resolution, speed run.

Speaker 5 Anyway, I accidentally went off on the meta of meetings also, but no, it's good.

Speaker 6 Well, but

Speaker 6 I think there is an important thing here, though, because we're talking about the politics of like

Speaker 28 meetings themselves, right?

Speaker 6 Of like the, you know, the actual political angle of what it means to have a democracy where what democracy means is you make decisions together. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And this is something there's also a very important actual procedural meeting note here, which is that one of the things you will learn over the course of doing meetings is that a lot of times people wage battles over the content of political ideology in the form of fighting over how a meeting works.

Speaker 6 Yeah, totally.

Speaker 6 And you can see this everywhere from like your fucking local organizing meeting and people yelling about who's on stack or whatever, all the way up to like, you know, when like, when like the Democrats are saying that like, like in Congress that like the, the parliament, the budget parliamentarian won't let them like raise the minimum wage, that's what they're doing.

Speaker 6 They're using an argument over procedure to like disguise the fact that what they're really arguing about is like, it is an actual political argument. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And and but this is also a thing where like the way you structure a meeting is political. Yeah.
It doesn't seem like it, right?

Speaker 6 But you can have a meeting where, you know, it's like the fucking plenipotentiary meeting of like the executive committee of,

Speaker 6 I don't know, the People's Congress, the Chinese Communist Party, or whatever. Those are not the right words.
I'm on five hours of sleep.

Speaker 6 But you can have a meeting where it's just like, yeah, the way the meeting works is one guy stands out there and he gives a speech and he tells everyone what to say and then everyone votes yes. Yeah.

Speaker 6 That's the way you can do a meeting, right? And that's political and it fucking sucks. And we're trying to teach you how to do a meeting where,

Speaker 6 you know, we do democracy, where everyone comes together and we like do a thing. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And we will get to more roles next week. This was originally planned to be one episode.
It is not one episode. It is now two episodes.

Speaker 6 But the upside is that we solved a bunch of the fundamental logistical problems about how to build a free society. So stay tuned for that.
Stay tuned for more roles you want in your meetings.

Speaker 6 And yeah, it's been making it happen here. And thank you, Mark, for coming on the show.

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Speaker 6 Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about organizing.

Speaker 6 I am your host, Mia Wong, and in a moment we will be continuing our episode about how to run a meeting, which is one of the fundamental tools of building democracy in free societies. Here we go.

Speaker 6 Okay, so other roles. So we talked about that.
That was a long digression about the concept of a stack taker, which is on a very simple level, you write the names down, you call the names in order.

Speaker 6 Yep. Yeah.

Speaker 6 We're going to move on to some of the other ones. Those are like the two.

Speaker 6 I don't know if most important is the right word. Funnily enough, stack taker is not the one I thought the digression was going to happen on.

Speaker 6 I thought that was going to be the last one we're going to get to. Oh, no taker.

Speaker 6 Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no no no no this is vibes checker oh the vibes checker are the vibes okay but okay okay please continue okay let's do timekeeper timekeeper extremely important person you want someone with like a watch or something and the timekeeper's job is to give people reminders of like how much time things are taking so you know a thing you can do is like okay so we know we have this much time allocated for something right we said we have 20 minutes to talk about this okay so like 10 minutes and you go we have 10 minutes left we have five minutes left we have like 15 minutes left yeah This is really important.

Speaker 6 And at the end of it, the timekeeper's job is to go like, hey, this is our allotted time. Do we want to keep talking about this and use more time? Or do we want to move on? Yeah.

Speaker 6 And that's a really important role.

Speaker 6 It's also kind of why you want to generally have like an idea of how long you want to talk about something in the agenda. It's also worth noting that like this is all guidelines, right?

Speaker 6 Like these are all Mia's guidelines of order.

Speaker 5 Is that what you're calling this?

Speaker 6 Oh, God, no.

Speaker 6 We're taking one more digression. One more digression, which is that the anarchy symbol,

Speaker 6 the A with the circle around it, is from a Proudhon phrase.

Speaker 6 The circle is actually an O because the original thing was anarchy. The original saying is anarchy is the mother of order.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 And that's where that comes from. So

Speaker 6 I was going to make

Speaker 6 Mia's procedure disorder, whatever joke, but it's like, no, no, no. This is actually like anarchy is order, baby.

Speaker 5 I believe in an organized society. I just believe in an organically organized society that is from the, to use the Zapatista phrase, from the bottom and the left.

Speaker 6 Yep. Okay, so that's the timekeeper.
The note-taker. Sometimes you need to decide whether you want notes of your meeting.
Yeah, it depends on how crime you are.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I hear this all the time from people making jokes about the scene for the wire that I, I've never seen the wire, but everyone's making jokes as the scene for the wire where a guy goes, are you taking notes of the criminal conspiracy?

Speaker 6 So, okay, are you going to have a note taker? And then secondly, like, Okay, the note-taker takes notes on what's being talked about.

Speaker 6 I actually, this is also Mia going into a little bit more advanced stuff.

Speaker 6 I actually like the practice of kind of rotating this throughout the meeting because the problem with being the note taker, so if you're the timekeeper, right, you can be involved in the conversation.

Speaker 6 Stack taker is also hard to,

Speaker 6 but the thing about the note taker, and it's, you know, if you get good enough at this, you can rotate all of these roles during the meeting

Speaker 6 so that everyone has a chance to participate. So you don't just have a group of people who perpetually can't be in the meeting.

Speaker 6 And so note taker is a thing that you can pretty easily just like pass to someone else and be like, hey, you're now the note-taker. So the person who's being the note taker can like say things.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Although, okay, so there's two weird, funny things about this.

Speaker 5 One, sometimes people who tend not to want to talk much in a meeting, but also maybe have an attention span where they would prefer to be doing something at all times,

Speaker 5 prefer to be note-taker.

Speaker 5 But famously, the International Workingmen's Association or whatever,

Speaker 5 the First International was an organization of a lot of different stripes of leftists.

Speaker 29 And

Speaker 5 someone went to someone's friend's apartment. This anarchist went to this anarchist friend's apartment and was like, Hey, I want to invite my friend to this meeting.
And this guy answers at the door.

Speaker 5 His name's Karl Marx. And he's like, Oh, well, so-and-so's not here.
And he's like, All right, well, you can come too. So, an anarchist invites Marx to the international.

Speaker 5 I don't have my notes in front of me, don't at me. But then Marx goes and he becomes the note-taker.

Speaker 5 And by means of that, he takes a minority position within the group and makes it the majority position by controlling the way that a lot of the media and expression and stuff around this was because Marx was a good writer.

Speaker 5 And for better or worse, I have my opinion about whether it's for better or worse. And so there's a power within Note Taker that actually is a reason to rotate this task.

Speaker 5 On the other hand, if you're like not worried about that, you could just have a person who's like, I just really want to be the one who takes notes.

Speaker 5 It really depends on everything is going to be contextual. I just wanted to tell that story about Marx.

Speaker 6 No, no, no, no. Like, this is the story of how Marx became Marx by taking the note-taking job and then becoming the person who would write the declarations for the organization.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 We should note, like, this is also kind of how Stalin took power was by being the person in the back of the room who didn't say anything and keeping track of what everyone was doing and saying and being able to manipulate like the inner workings of these sort of parliamentary procedures that the Bolsheviks were using.

Speaker 5 That's what the Robert, not of the Rules of Order, but of the Behind the Bastards was saying about

Speaker 5 the man who killed everyone. Oh, Pol Pot.

Speaker 6 Pol Pot.

Speaker 5 It was that he was the quiet guy at the back.

Speaker 6 Yep, yep, yep. Same kind of guy.
Can be extremely dangerous. The guy who says everything all the time can be dangerous.
Quiet person also can be very dangerous.

Speaker 5 Just never trust anyone. That's the answer.
Wait, no, hold on.

Speaker 6 Hopefully we're not producing Pol Pot in these meetings.

Speaker 6 Okay, so the last

Speaker 6 official role that I want to talk about, and there's a lot, there's like a million other roles that people use.

Speaker 6 I want to talk about the vibes checker. So this is the one that's kind of not obvious from like the name, but the vibes checker is someone who actually has a really, really important role.

Speaker 6 And your role is to figure out like, is everyone in the group okay? Does this meeting feel okay? Yeah. And is there something we need to do about it?

Speaker 6 And some of this is like, okay, everyone is clearly really tired. Let's go get lunch.
And that's like a pretty easy sort of vibes checker thing. But then also, like,

Speaker 6 I don't know, this is partially a facilitation job.

Speaker 6 Like, I don't know, if someone says something racist in a meeting and a bunch of people are uncomfortable, it's like, now you're suddenly glad you have the person whose job it is to be like, hey, what the fuck?

Speaker 6 Like, and that's also that's like, obviously, like, that's a blatant enough thing that everyone can be like, hold on, hold on. Like, don't like say a slur or whatever.

Speaker 6 But like, you know, the vibe checker's job is if there's a lot of people who are uncomfortable with something or if something, like, they're kind of there if something is going wrong or if people are checked out or if like stuff's happening sometimes this is a behind-the-scene thing sometimes this is like yeah explicit like you make a you bring it to the group to be like hey this is a okay we need to address this yeah

Speaker 6 kind of thing

Speaker 5 i don't know it's a hard role to sort of like explain it's fuzzy yeah i mean you but it's it's in the name how are the vibes and vibe is a fuzzy word and you know it's a word that people are going to interpret in different ways.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 And like, I, as a very sort of materialist, godless atheist, I, it's like, okay, this is how people are feeling.

Speaker 28 Right.

Speaker 6 People also take this in sort of more new agey directions. People take it in like, but like, you know, like the important thing about this is right.

Speaker 6 You can feel in a meeting when it's really tense or when things are like just weird. Everything feels off.
Everyone is like

Speaker 6 pissed off or tired or like just grossed out or like, you know, and that's this person's job. This is why I'm putting it in here because it's, it's one of these roles that

Speaker 6 like ideally, I guess this person doesn't do anything for a whole meeting, but they're just there sort of watching it.

Speaker 6 I mean, like, it can be good if they intervene, but like it's especially important if something is going wrong in ways the group isn't addressing. Totally.

Speaker 5 It is good to have someone who's ready to step up and say,

Speaker 5 this is what's going on. Can I make a pitch for another role?

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 I don't have a name for this role.

Speaker 5 The very first activist meeting I went to when the world was young, during the ultra-globalization movement, I went into a meeting for New York City Indy Media, and I had no idea what was happening, but it was a public open meeting and I was a young activist, anarchist, or whatever.

Speaker 5 And I went to this thing and someone sat next to me, knew that I was new. and sat next to me and explained what the fuck was happening.

Speaker 6 That's a good role.

Speaker 5 And I don't know if I would have become an activist if that person hadn't done that.

Speaker 5 Because I went in and it was the middle of a contentious meeting about people talking about some stuff that like was pretty important and I had no idea what was happening.

Speaker 5 And someone explained it to me. I think it is very important to have someone know who is new and help them feel comfortable.

Speaker 5 You could call it like an usher if I was going to have a word, but that's like, because I'm really into this idea that our movements don't need gatekeepers. We need ushers.

Speaker 5 We need people to help people figure, find their seats and figure out how to plug in.

Speaker 6 Yes, onboarding.

Speaker 5 But then the other thing I want to say is that with roles, the larger and more formal a meeting, the more likely you need these to be formalized roles.

Speaker 5 But I also think that these as generalized skills can be dispersed through.

Speaker 5 Like I think that a lot of groups, especially if they're kind of comfortable with each other, you maybe have a rotating facilitator, you maybe have a stack taker, and you maybe are like, who's taking notes right now?

Speaker 5 But stuff like timekeeper and vibes check might be a thing that everyone feels empowered to do.

Speaker 5 I think that understanding these as roles is different than saying at the top of the meeting, this is the way it is done. You must assign these things.
It is always contextual based on the meeting.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 The range inside of meeting structure of like how formal and informal it is changes a lot.

Speaker 6 And that, yeah, that like changes, you know, that changes the roles, that changes how all of this stuff works.

Speaker 6 Um, totally, and that's one of the most important things about this is like being flexible because the point of a meeting is not

Speaker 6 everyone followed the exact parliamentary procedures.

Speaker 6 The point of a meeting is we did the thing we came there to do or sometimes we did it, we did a different thing, right? But it's like,

Speaker 6 we all did something together and that thing happened, but we figured out how to make that thing happen. And that's the actual important part.

Speaker 6 The content of the meeting is what's important, not this, all the structure is to enable the content. It's not the other way around.

Speaker 5 Yeah, totally. Right.
Totally.

Speaker 6 And like, yeah, I don't know. Like if you have a timekeeper and someone else ends up doing time stuff too right like that's a significantly better result than yeah we just kept talking so

Speaker 5 okay can i make one more pitch about a thing that's important at a meeting yeah yeah uh food i think that it's not always going to be appropriate in every specific situation and there's a lot of things around dietary restrictions and all of these things but making the meeting feel like a place that is worth going to and a thing that like I think food is basically like hosting and good hospitality and these sort of again in invisibilized feminine labor things

Speaker 5 goes a really long way towards making everyone feel comfortable. It also helps people's attention spans and blood sugar.

Speaker 5 like whether every meeting's a potluck or whether everyone just brings snacks or whether it's at someone's house and they're like, fuck yeah, I'm hosting.

Speaker 5 I'm going to to make a bunch of food and, you know, whatever it is.

Speaker 6 Yeah. I've been theorizing this for a while that like we need because like, obviously a lot of this technology has been worked out already,

Speaker 6 but also we have so much further to go in order to like be able to make decisions together in a free society. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And like, I think we need to just have an initiative of like, how do we make meetings fucking rip?

Speaker 6 One of my ideas has always been like, you have a meeting that's just like the standing barbecue meeting that happens like every like, it's like the endless meeting.

Speaker 6 And it's like, okay, you have it at like this time and there's just like a barbecue and everyone does barbecue stuff.

Speaker 5 And yeah, it's just a standing thing where if you want to come and like, and then, okay, just to keep talking about some of the stuff, childcare. Childcare.

Speaker 5 I think when you, you mentioned at the beginning being like making sure that the space is accessible to everyone. And there's a lot of stuff that gets forgotten about.
In particular,

Speaker 5 I would say that single parents are often forgotten about. And I think that having, or parents in general, or children in general, are often forgotten about.

Speaker 5 And I think that having a plan in place for accessibility of all kinds of different people often includes childcare.

Speaker 6 I used to do this.

Speaker 5 Oh, that's cool.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that was like one of the things that I did for some meetings. And like, yeah, there were like meetings that happened.

Speaker 6 There were like tense meetings that happened because like people stayed and played with everyone's kids. It was a good time.

Speaker 6 And yeah.

Speaker 5 There's also this idea where.

Speaker 5 Sometimes meetings, people can come in and out of the society that I want to live in has neighborhood assemblies that then move up to larger structures and make decisions, right?

Speaker 5 And in those, there's also this thing where it's like, you don't always have to go to meetings.

Speaker 5 There's a thing that about democracy that people don't quite always get, which is that sometimes the most beautiful thing we can do for each other is give our agency freely to other people to make decisions for us that we trust.

Speaker 5 Working groups are actually a good part, big part of this, where I'm like, I don't actually want to have a say in every single decision that affects me.

Speaker 5 I want to be able to have a say in every single decision that affects me.

Speaker 5 Anyway, I'm again going kind of meta on this. Sorry.

Speaker 6 No, no, well this is this is important, right?

Speaker 6 You know, and also like doing the child care was part of that because like, yeah, it meant like, you know, I was kind of, I was like trusting my people in the group to like do the meeting without me while I was just sort of like taking care of, like just taking care of kids.

Speaker 6 And that was a really beautiful thing. And it worked really well.
And it, it fucking ripped. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And you can build multi-generational movements, which are the only movements that accomplish. That's not true.

Speaker 5 Sudden movements also accomplish things. But when I look at some of the real high watermarks of

Speaker 5 from the bottom and the left organizing around the world, you're talking about people who are drawn from hundreds of years of radical legacies or at least a couple generations.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Speaking of generations, I don't know. I don't have a good pivot into this.

Speaker 6 But okay, so we've been talking a lot of, about a lot of the technology that's been used for meetings. I want to talk about a couple of other kinds of meetings that you can have.

Speaker 6 When I originally was writing this, I was like, oh, I can fit this whole, this whole section on how to run a meeting, this will be like 20 minutes.

Speaker 6 And I can have 20 minutes about like spokes councils and 20 minutes about general assemblies. And we're not like an hour.
We're not, this is like, this is an hour.

Speaker 5 I brought Margaret on.

Speaker 6 And we have not even started talking. So, okay, that's going to be another.
The General Assembly episode is going to be another episode.

Speaker 6 completely in and of itself, but I do want to talk about spokes councils because this is a thing that I've been finding really, really useful

Speaker 6 that I think people just don't know about anymore. And because people have lost the knowledge of this, a really valuable organizational tactic has been lost.

Speaker 6 So, okay, the thing that a meeting is there to do is so a group of people can come together and make decisions. But how do you make decisions between groups?

Speaker 6 Or, and this is also often more important, less than having like, because, you know, a lot of spokes councils aren't usually supposed to be like, we're all making, like, we're all sort of like, this is like a binding decision handed down by like spokes council.

Speaker 6 Right.

Speaker 6 This is also a really useful useful coordinating tool yeah and this is what it's you know what it's like actually designed for is how do you get groups to sort of talk to each other and work with each other in a way that also lets them continue to be like their own groups and not you know a sort of like subservient to the larger coalition yeah yeah and and you know the answer to this turns out is a technology that was developed i actually don't know the history of the spokes council i mean it's been around for like a long time i don't either like at least like 30 40 years in anarchist circles but it hasn't really made it out of them.

Speaker 6 And so spokes council is a meeting of groups. And so it's, it's, it's a meeting of spokespeople, right? So your group sends like one or two people to a thing.
You send like a couple of people.

Speaker 6 And all of the other groups send some people and you come talk about a thing. Yep.
And this is really useful for a number of reasons.

Speaker 6 One, it's a way for different kinds of groups to interface with each other in ways that they usually don't. So this can be anything from like an affinity group to like

Speaker 6 an ngo to like a union yeah it can scale between different kinds of things it can theoretically you can do this with like

Speaker 6 your your like fucking spokes council could theoretically send a person to another spokes council totally right and this is you know we'll get more to this in a second right but like like but like this is a way for a bunch of different types of organizations to come together and do something And it's a way for them to coordinate with each other.

Speaker 6 It's a way for them to share information. It's a way for them to, and this is like one of the sort of secrets of organizing is that like

Speaker 6 actual organizing is built through personal relationships with people knowing each other. Yeah.
And so this is a way for like people to like meet each other and get to do things.

Speaker 6 There's different kinds of these. The traditional one is like, okay, there's like a thing happening, right? Like there is a, there is a giant protest.

Speaker 6 And like a bunch of people who are going to be, a bunch of the different groups and organizations and affinity groups and whatever who are going to be at this thing come together.

Speaker 6 And they're like, okay, how, what are we doing? How are we going to sort of do this? And how do we coordinate this with each other? Yeah.

Speaker 6 And yeah, Mark, I assume you've been in like a million of these.

Speaker 5 You know, I have been in a lot of spokes council meetings. I've been in a fewer of them.
And I think that you're right. There's been a bit of a drop off.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 5 It's funny we were talking earlier and I was like, oh, I haven't done this in a while. I actually do go to meetings every week.

Speaker 5 But I used to go to meetings specifically for direct action protests. And that is a thing that I used to have more direct experience with.

Speaker 5 And so I don't want to be like, oh, people stop doing it because I don't totally know because I'm not totally plugged in.

Speaker 5 But I do think the ultra-globalization movement of like 1999 to 2003 or so is where a lot of modern protest tactics and stuff were developed, or rather, it came to a head.

Speaker 5 The tactics have been developed for decades by various different groups.

Speaker 5 And actually, a lot of the technologies around...

Speaker 5 spokes councils and stuff, they come from a lot of different sources, including, I think, anarchists in the Spanish Civil War, but I'm not 100% certain about that.

Speaker 5 But a lot of the ultra-globalization movement stuff comes from the Zapatistas in Chiapas. I know you didn't ask for a history lesson, and I'll speed around it.

Speaker 6 No, no, no, no, no, no, this is good, though.

Speaker 5 The folks in Chiapas, in the Zapatistas, have developed a lot of different ideas about how to have bottom-up democracy, and they've been moving through different ones.

Speaker 5 They actually moved to a more decentralized model than they were doing about two years ago in 2023.

Speaker 5 But they went around the world and built organizations by saying, everyone send your people.

Speaker 5 We're getting together, the People's Global Alliance, like all of these, you know, global South, I'm putting air quotes here, we're getting together and we're building direct action movements together.

Speaker 5 And that is where the ultra-globalization movement comes from, at least as much as anything else. And some of that is that technology of saying, send your representatives and do this thing.

Speaker 5 But it's interesting because in some ways it's actually just an upside-down version of parliamentary democracy, right? Where theoretically

Speaker 5 we elect a politician and they go speak for us. They don't.

Speaker 5 That is the concept behind a democracy, right? And so theoretically, you can send a delegate, and there's two ways of doing it.

Speaker 5 There's a decision-making larger body and there's a coordinating larger body. And if you want to maintain every group's autonomy, it is a coordinating body.

Speaker 5 You get together and at the spokes council, you say, The 10 people I represent who will remain nameless are all willing to get arrested tomorrow and we're all willing to lock ourselves down.

Speaker 5 And someone else will say, we don't want to get arrested. The 14 people that I'm representing kind of want to break shit.

Speaker 5 And then other people will be like, the 15 people that I represent kind of wish y'all wouldn't break shit. And you can get together and coordinate.

Speaker 5 And then the break shit people can be like, oh, okay, well, we'll make sure we break shit somewhere else than where you are and

Speaker 5 all of this stuff. And whereas a decision-making body would get together and your spoke would have a mandate from your group.

Speaker 5 They would be empowered to make decisions for everyone, knowing that the decision has to be within a certain framework.

Speaker 5 And then basically when they're done, you'd be like, okay, you did or didn't succeed at your mandate. We're going to send someone else next time or whatever.

Speaker 5 So there's two different ways of doing spokes council meetings.

Speaker 5 I think one of the reasons that they fell out of favor is that by and large, open organizing of direct action has diminished in the movement because It may or may not be legal to show up somewhere and say, well, the 15 people I represent want to break shit.

Speaker 5 Or even the 15 people that I represent want to lock ourselves down into big puppets with lockboxes, right? And disrupt global trade.

Speaker 5 Because of the ramping up of repression, people have backed off of certain types of open organizing.

Speaker 5 I have opinions about that, but that's kind of, I'm actually not trying to tell anyone what to do about it. But so I think that that's part of why the spokes council has a little bit diminished.

Speaker 5 And I actually think that we just need to adapt the spokes council to the modern context. And I'm sure people do still do them.

Speaker 6 So this is, this is where we're getting, this is what I'm calling the Mia technology which is there have been spokes councils recently that are not like that are not this

Speaker 6 that are using the idea of the spokes council but are kind of a different thing okay because there's a there's another thing that you can do with this organizational form right of everyone sends their delegates together or whatever like everyone everyone sends their like spokespeople yeah everyone meets each other you can also do this for like not planning a direct action yeah totally You can do this as a way to get all of the different organizations and like affinity groups and shit in a city talking to each other.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And this turns out to be extremely useful.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 I've seen this a lot recently in sort of trans organizing where like all the trans different like groups in the city will be like fuck it. We're showing up to a thing.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 This is a different thing that we will be talking hopefully to some people who run this

Speaker 6 soon. This was originally supposed to be part of this episode before I realized that it was impossible to fit this into this episode.

Speaker 6 We just have two episodes but there was a really really cool thing in portland that was called the trans general assembly cool where they people were just like fuck it we're running a general assembly for like all of the trans people come you can say things and everyone meets at the end and that was awesome yeah but you can do this on a very very on a targeted level with like okay i know a bunch of different orgs that like for example okay we need to we need to coordinate a response to like the situation of trans people in the U.S.

Speaker 6 Yeah. So you can go through all of your networks.
You can be like, okay, I know this person who is in this org that does this thing. Right.
And you can bring all of those resources together.

Speaker 6 And then you can turn that into a spokes council. That's not quite the same thing exactly as the kind of like direct action spokes councils that have been organized.
Right.

Speaker 5 It is closer to a general assembly, maybe, but maybe that's a pedantic difference or semantic difference.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it kind of is, but it's well, so, okay, the way I've been conceiving of it is like,

Speaker 6 if you're specifically getting people together who are there as organizations, it's a spokes council. Yeah, totally.
If they're there as themselves, it's a general assembly.

Speaker 5 Oh, that makes sense.

Speaker 6 Even if they are sort of like representing a thing, but like,

Speaker 6 yeah, like

Speaker 6 the scopes and who shows up to them are very different, I think.

Speaker 5 Oh, and there's also fishbowls.

Speaker 6 What is a fishbowl? Actually, I haven't heard this one before.

Speaker 5 A fishbowl is a spokes council where everyone can come and only the spoke can speak.

Speaker 5 So you can look in on the fish.

Speaker 6 Oh, that's what that's called. Interesting.
Okay.

Speaker 28 Yeah. Anyway, which is a way to do it.

Speaker 5 It maintains transparency. It's a way to have a still open meeting,

Speaker 5 but if only one person from the group is empowered to speak, then it's not a nightmare of trying to have 6,000 people in a room talk.

Speaker 6 The basic meeting technology, all of these things can be used for a whole bunch of different things in a whole bunch of different ways that like we haven't thought of yet.

Speaker 5 You could arrange trash pickup in a neighborhood. You can make the government obsolete.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 5 With meetings and spokes councils and general assemblies and federations and all of these like levels of bottom-up organizing. And there are places in the world where people have done this.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And, you know, if we want to close on sort of like, this is the political angle of this, right? Like a free society is one that is structured like this.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 Where a bunch of where things happen by people coming together to do them. Yeah.
Right.

Speaker 6 And you can take the sort of like, I don't know, I guess you'd call it the the workerist angle of like, I don't know, we need to run a waste treatment plant. Yeah.
Right.

Speaker 6 And so the way the waste treatment plant is run is that the people who do waste treatment have their own like workers' council or whatever. Right.

Speaker 6 And they decide how they're going to do it and they go do it. Right.

Speaker 5 Almost every, I would say every real revolution and revolutionary movement in history is doing a version of this. You can even look at the Soviet concept.
The Soviet was the decision-making body.

Speaker 5 It was the assembly.

Speaker 5 And all power to the Soviets was this slogan that literally was inverted by the Bolsheviks, where the entire idea was a democratic but revolutionary movement.

Speaker 5 And this happens constantly, even when societies break down on some level naturally. And a ton, not all, a ton of indigenous societies,

Speaker 5 this is the default model.

Speaker 5 And so, you know, in Chiapas with the Zapatistas, what happened was is that you had this like Marxist-Leninist army and they were like, oh, we're going to do this thing this way.

Speaker 5 And the indigenous people who lived in Chiapas were like, that's not how we do things. And they were like, this is how we do things.

Speaker 5 And then the Zapatistas, who were good people, were like, you're right. That's how we do things.
You know, and they like built up this model.

Speaker 5 And you have a similar thing happening with the area called Rojava in northeast Syria, where like basically people were like, actually, the indigenous Kurdish model of doing things is much more this egalitarian method and democratic method.

Speaker 5 And then, okay, and the other thing is you can do it in the workers' model, but there's also people who who have messed around with it and done things like, you know what, maybe the school isn't run by the teachers.

Speaker 5 Maybe the school is run by the teachers, the parents, and the students.

Speaker 5 And maybe the food distribution center is a combination of the workers of the food distribution center and the people who make use of it.

Speaker 5 So maybe the trash pickup is both the workers and the people who need the services.

Speaker 5 But the specifics almost do matter, and we can, but we don't know. We don't know the actual formulation.

Speaker 5 But this is the core yeah of bottom left organizing and it is a beautiful thing and it is funny how it all comes down to meetings and making sure that there's food and child care and yeah not one person taking up all the time which is really hard when you podcast for a living i will tell you that yeah but i mean this is like you know i have had to learn to shut the fuck up in meetings yes me too and by doing it has made meetings better it's great you can learn to shut the fuck up someone else says the thing and you don't have to say it yeah yeah but then also i do want to point this out right the things that we're describing here, right?

Speaker 6 It's okay, like, how do you do the beach work? You need food, you need child care, you need structure that makes sure one person isn't running the thing.

Speaker 6 Yeah, this is the entire political situation of the modern United States, right?

Speaker 6 We are trying to get food, we are trying to get child care, we are trying to have a place to do our thing, and we're trying to have to not be ruled by like a fucking king. Yeah, totally.

Speaker 6 Again, this all seems like very, very basic like shit, right? But if you don't have this, this is a problem that the U.S. has constantly to your protest movements.

Speaker 6 It's like most Americans don't have a democratic tradition. Right.
And so when shit happens and there's suddenly riots and there's suddenly like mass protest movements break out, right?

Speaker 6 People don't know how to make democratic decisions, so they don't. Right.
And that means that nobody's talking to each other.

Speaker 6 That means that everyone is locked in these very small circles of extremely violent paranoia.

Speaker 6 And that sucks.

Speaker 6 And we can avoid that by knowing how to do democracy because that's fundamentally what running and meeting is. This is what democracy looks like.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I also want to say one more thing.

Speaker 6 This is a podcast that would probably I could have used a facilitator, especially on my end right now, because unmedicated Mia is a fucking trip.

Speaker 6 But like, you know, when we talk about sort of our, our, how do you apply this to your sort of broad vision of society, right? And it's like, okay, anarchists, how do you run USAID? Right.

Speaker 6 Because like, yeah, like the destruction of USAID is going to kill an unbelievable number of people because people aren't getting HIV vaccines, right? Right.

Speaker 6 And the way you run that is the way that you run a meeting, right? The workers who produce,

Speaker 6 who are the people who actually figure out how to make an HIV vaccine,

Speaker 6 distribute it, distribute information about it, those people form fucking, form fucking councils and they form fucking meeting groups.

Speaker 6 And they work in collaboration with the people who need them.

Speaker 6 And that is how you build a society, right?

Speaker 6 It's like David Gabriel's thing was like, the ultimate hidden truth of this world is that it is something we make and we could just as easily make differently.

Speaker 6 And when he says something we make, he was talking about it in a more abstract sense, but like we do literally make it.

Speaker 6 Like all of this stuff is the product of stuff that we did, right? Like we all physically built every aspect of this world, right?

Speaker 6 Everything, everything that you see and touch and hear right now are things that we designed and engineered and built.

Speaker 6 And we don't lose that capacity when we cease to be ruled. We can still do that.
And as long as we have the ability to do democracy, right?

Speaker 6 And we have the ability to make decisions with each other, we can fucking do those things and we can do them for each other and not for a king.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's like people ask, how would you make and distribute insulin in an anarchist society or an anti-capitalist society or a bottom-up society?

Speaker 5 And you're like, well, we know how to make and distribute insulin and we just need to change. some of the social technologies that are doing it.
And I think we could probably do it better

Speaker 5 because it's it's currently not working great. You know, and my other like go-to quote, I love the Graeber quote, is the Daruti quote, anarchist general in Spanish Civil War.

Speaker 5 Probably didn't actually say this. It was probably a journalist put these words in his mouth, but we're not actually certain.

Speaker 5 And he says, like, I'm paraphrasing, the bourgeoisie can blast and ruin the world on their way out of history. That's fine.
Yeah. We, the workers, built.

Speaker 6 all of these cities.

Speaker 5 We can build. We know how to do that.

Speaker 6 The part of that always stuck with with me is like, I think the exact quote that I got was, we are not in the least afraid of ruins. Yeah.
We are the ones who built this world.

Speaker 6 And we'll do it again. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And yeah. So

Speaker 5 I don't know what these episodes are going to be called, but if they're called, the answer is meetings, comma, sorry.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 6 I don't know if this is going to end up being the provisional title right now is the most important organizing skill you don't know because unfortunately we do need people to click on this and they won't if it's a meaning thing.

Speaker 6 So,

Speaker 6 if you want to click page

Speaker 5 into this, right? Well, then that's the monster at the end of the book is that it's meanings all the way down.

Speaker 28 Yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 6 Yeah,

Speaker 6 Margaret, thanks for thanks for talking with me about the actual fundamental building blocks and tools of democratic life. Yeah,

Speaker 5 thanks for having me, and thanks for talking about this stuff.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and this has been it could happen here. You can go out in your community and you can do these things, you can form spokes councils, you can form assemblies, you can

Speaker 6 go work with the people around you to do things and you can use structures to do it and you can change the world.

Speaker 5 The secret is to really begin.

Speaker 6 Hell yeah.

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Speaker 6 Ah, welcome back to It Could Happen here, a podcast that is normally about the terrors.

Speaker 6 But today, today we're talking about, I mean, technically still the terrors, but we're talking about a more fun part of the terrors. We're talking about the liver king.
Thank God. Thank God.

Speaker 29 Dods and kings, two things we famously appreciate on this podcast.

Speaker 6 With me today is James Stout and Meal Wong. What do y'all know about the Liver King?

Speaker 29 I thought you were going to give us cool titles. Just if we could just go back and you could each give us

Speaker 29 some kind of nobility and a food stuff.

Speaker 6 Yeah, sure. James, you are the

Speaker 6 tea leaf salad that made you really sick that one time, King.

Speaker 6 It's true.

Speaker 29 I think that tea leaf salad ruled me, actually.

Speaker 6 Yeah. It's good to hear me.
It made me its subject.

Speaker 6 And I, Mia, you know, you and I have eaten a lot of meals together. We need to do more of that.
Right. We need to do more of that.

Speaker 6 You're the, you're the, I have not eaten many meals with me yet, but hopefully will, Queen.

Speaker 6 Incredible. Incredible.
Incredible. Now, the liver king is the king of liver, as you're all, I'm certain, well aware.
And

Speaker 6 we did a bastards. This was a live episode I did a couple of years ago with Dr.
Cave Hoda.

Speaker 6 And in case you're not aware, the Liver King is a guy who, like three, two or three years ago started to get really famous very suddenly and obtained millions of followers, I think up to like six at one point on Instagram

Speaker 6 by getting super jacked. He was this huge shredded guy, or he was not, he's not actually very tall, but he was shredded.

Speaker 6 And he would, he was always perpetually shirtless, usually wearing very little, and talking about his different primal rules, how mainly you need to eat nothing but liver and testicles,

Speaker 6 often raw. And that's all you need to do in order to get huge.

Speaker 6 That, and then you can just lift hundreds and hundreds of pounds, and you'll get swollen and gigantic, totally natty, because we're just, we're supposed to eat like primal cavemen who only ate testicles and liver.

Speaker 6 They left the rest.

Speaker 6 Now, accepting how none of this is accurate, it came out very soon after that because the Liver King, prior to becoming the Liver King, had been a series of petty grifters of lower nobility and had written an email to a guy who was like an expert on performance-enhancing drugs asking like what kind of regimen he could take in order to get the size that he eventually became.

Speaker 6 Anyway, it came out that he's been spending like $13,000 a month on steroids. Like that, that's how he got huge.
It's not the testicles. It's not the livers.

Speaker 6 It's not these absurd videos of him eating different organ meats or making his kids eat different organ meats. It's not his

Speaker 6 weird workout tactics. It's the fact that he's taking $13,000 worth of gear a month, right?

Speaker 6 Now, one of the first people to call him out before this came out was Joe Rogan, who saw the, and, you know, I'll give Joe Rogan credit for one thing. He knows when someone's on steroids.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 So. Joe Rogan had called him out initially being like, there's no way this guy's natural, right? Like he's taking fucking steroids.
It's very obvious.

Speaker 6 Now, to be fair, everyone knew that because it's very like.

Speaker 6 I don't know shit about steroids and I look at that guy his like his belly button pushes out

Speaker 29 Robert's not talking about an Audi.

Speaker 6 No, no, I'm talking about

Speaker 6 it's a golf ball size protrusion like the organs are trying to escape this man is so clearly 80% steroids by volume.

Speaker 6 That is the highest volume of steroid to body mass that has ever existed. Yeah, it's nuts stuff.

Speaker 6 So he lost a shitload of his followers and he's still got like 3 million on Instagram, but his videos, he's lucky to get a couple of thousand like likes and shares these days on an Instagram video.

Speaker 6 And, you know, before that all came out, he was doing much more. He had to do a mea culpa.
He claims he's all natty now. And he has just over the last couple of years just continually degraded.
Right.

Speaker 6 Now, this guy's business, which he made millions doing, or one of his businesses was

Speaker 6 selling different supplements. He's very expensive supplements.
And he's built kind of a little cult at his compound in Texas around,

Speaker 6 you know, know, listening to fucking dance music from the mid-aughts. A lot of like Mike Posner remixes and weird shit while giving

Speaker 6 rants about being a caveman and like pulling tractor equipment and shit.

Speaker 6 He likes to always walk around with fucking a with a plate carrier on, which he calls his exoskeleton in order to like, you know, build up muscle mass or whatever.

Speaker 6 And anyway, he's continually degenerated to the point where those of us who call ourselves liver king watchers have all kind of been saying for a while now, oh, he's not just on gear anymore.

Speaker 6 Like he's doing, he's, he's doing other drugs and they have had, they are really having a negative effect on his mental health.

Speaker 29 Yeah, he doesn't seem well.

Speaker 6 He does not seem well. So I'm going to put a video, play a video on.
This is a video that started it all. He started a couple of weeks ago increasingly threatening Joe Rogan.

Speaker 6 And he doesn't live that far away from Austin. He started posting this series of videos trying to threaten Joe Rogan to a fight.
And I'm going to, I'm going to post to you the one.

Speaker 6 This is kind of like the key video that gets this series of events started. It's the video that is the inciting incident video for everything that's happening now, right?

Speaker 6 So, that's that's what I'm gonna play for you guys.

Speaker 6 You see the Instagram? Okay,

Speaker 6 so in this video, listeners, you're gonna hear him talk. In this video, he's got again

Speaker 6 like music playing in the background. He's wearing a badly taxidermied wolf head that's like a cape over his

Speaker 6 wolf. And it's like so cute.
It's like a dirty wolf.

Speaker 6 He is shirtless. He's wearing shorts.
And as one user noted in the comments, his pants are vibrating as he talks.

Speaker 6 And he is carrying in each hand, he has a gold-plated AR-15 short-barreled rifle with a fucking blast forward on it.

Speaker 6 In my entire life, I have never seen a man look less intimidating while holding a gun wearing a wolf pelt. Two guns, man.
Two guns. Is that the second gun? Two guns, yeah.
Holy shit.

Speaker 6 Look at blunder buttons. Those are two gold-plated AR-15 SBRs with a gold EO tech on top in case he hadn't spent enough money.

Speaker 29 Yeah, yeah, and I think a gold one on the other.

Speaker 6 So, anyway, I'm gonna you listen to this man. Joe Rogan, I'm calling you out.
My name's Liberty, man to man.

Speaker 6 I'm picking a fight with you.

Speaker 6 Yeah,

Speaker 6 I have no trading in Jiu-Jitsu. You're a black belt.

Speaker 6 You should dismantle me.

Speaker 6 But I'm picking a fight with you. Your rules,

Speaker 6 whenever you want me to win it, I'll wait. I'll wait 190 this morning.
I'll come wait. I'll come to you whenever you're ready.
Whenever you're ready to go, I'm on a vibration plate, by the way.

Speaker 6 That's what I'm saying,

Speaker 6 and then he just starts dancing.

Speaker 6 I'm on a vibration plate, by the way.

Speaker 6 That's a healthy man. That's a guy who's doing well, right? We can all agree.

Speaker 24 He's literally buzzing.

Speaker 6 I saw a video one time where someone was reacting to a Drake video, and his response was, those are the least intimidating goons I've ever seen in my entire life.

Speaker 6 And that is the entire vibe of watching him trying to like bring someone to a fight.

Speaker 6 It's something else.

Speaker 6 It is special.

Speaker 6 It is special. And if you couldn't quite make out the audio over whatever the fuck that music was, what he says in that is, Joe Rogan, I'm calling you out.
My name's Liver King, man to man.

Speaker 6 I'm picking a fight with you. I have no training in jiu-jitsu.
You're a black belt. You should just dismantle me, but I'm picking a fight with you.
Your rules. I'll come to you whenever you're ready.

Speaker 29 Holding the ARs does give that a slightly

Speaker 6 more terroristic threat vibe, right?

Speaker 6 Why are you holding the ARs?

Speaker 6 Because he goes on to say in another post, You never come across something like this, willing to die, hoping that you'll choke me out because that's a dream come true, which makes it sound like a sex thing, right?

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 6 that makes makes it sound like a sex thing.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 29 Wow, he closed out Pride Month.

Speaker 6 So this video comes out, and then Liver King starts making a series of videos in Austin, right? He drives to Austin. He's making videos on the way.

Speaker 6 He makes videos when he gets there and he keeps saying he wants to fight Joe Rogan. Now, he's just saying he wants to fight him.
right? He's not saying, I'm going to kill you.

Speaker 6 He's not saying like, I'm going to assault you. He's like, he's asking for a consensual fight, but he's also posing with weapons and he has now traveled to Austin and he's clearly unwell.

Speaker 6 So Joe Rogan has a security team. He's got a bunch of like former operators and shit that he pays to watch over his security and whatnot and sometimes go on his podcast, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker 6 And they do their job, which is, oh, there's a guy threatening our boss, holding guns and photos, and he's traveled to Austin. We should probably call it cops.

Speaker 6 We should probably do something about this.

Speaker 6 So they give a call to the police and they're like, hey, we consider this to be like numerous threats, right? He's traveled to Austin.

Speaker 6 Like, this seems like a guy who might actually act seriously on his threats. We're concerned about this.
So the police wind up talking to Joe Rogan himself. And Rogan says, yeah, I was, you know,

Speaker 6 my security team told me about this. I consider these to be threats.
Like, and I'm willing to file a police report, right? He tells the police that Brian Johnson has a drug issue, which is, again,

Speaker 6 it's weird to be like, yeah, Joe Rogan so far, not wrong about any of this. And he's like, he's unstable.
He probably needs help, which again, probably accurate, right?

Speaker 6 I don't think there's much to argue with here. So the police decide these cross the line into terroristic threats and they file charges.
The Liver King is arrested. He's not in jail long.

Speaker 6 He's released within a day on $20,000 bond. There's a restraining order.
He's not allowed to have guns anymore for a while. He's going to stay

Speaker 6 200 yards away from Rogan.

Speaker 6 So the Liver King does exactly what a guy like the you'd expect a guy like the Liver King to do, right?

Speaker 6 In the wake of something like this happening, which is he immediately gets out of jail and starts making more videos, right? Of course.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah.
From his hotel room in Austin. And again, these are just the videos of a really healthy guy who's doing well, whose brain

Speaker 6 has not liquefied and isn't coming out of his ears. Just a man who seems healthy.

Speaker 42 Thank you for all the prayers, by the way. People praying for me.

Speaker 42 You should also pray for yourself, pray for your family, lock that down, fist bump pound, lock it down. You should do all that.
I am going to the Capitol.

Speaker 42 I'm already in the Capitol, but we're going to like Capitol Capitol, the location. And I've been given the gift of a restraining order just recently.

Speaker 42 And so if anybody knows if

Speaker 42 someone else whose first name rhymes with Blow, whose last name is Rogan, I'm not allowed to say it for copyright. I might sue you about every...

Speaker 42 You're not allowed to laugh. I'll see you.
I'll put you in jail on that one too.

Speaker 6 Okay, so

Speaker 6 first off, he starts this. He admits in another video, he posted a little earlier, that he hasn't slept in days.

Speaker 6 And he hasn't been eating.

Speaker 6 And he is slurring his words at the start of this. He is not well.
I don't think he's sober, but it could just be sleep deprivation and the fact that something else is awry.

Speaker 6 And he's like going to the Capitol. He says he wants to go to the Capitol to like start a legal precedent.
He says Liver King v.

Speaker 6 Joe Rogan is going to be like one of the great legal battles of our century in terms of setting precedents.

Speaker 6 What kind of precedent?

Speaker 29 It's going to be the new dredge, Scott.

Speaker 6 I got to play you guys another video from right after his arrest in terms of like seeing how well this man is doing. This is the one where he talks about having not slept in days.

Speaker 6 It's going to zoom in on his eyes. And I need you to look at his pupils, okay? Oh, no.
Because

Speaker 6 this seems like a man who's had a serious head injury to me.

Speaker 6 Because

Speaker 6 one of his pupils is a very different size from the others.

Speaker 43 Good morning prime. Oh, wow.
From the vibration plate at the greatest home state in the world.

Speaker 43 Austin, Texas.

Speaker 43 Texas is the state, just to be clear. Bags under my eyes.
Haven't slept a whole lot.

Speaker 43 And it's been an amazing gift.

Speaker 6 What do you see there, people with medical training? Yeah, the human eye shouldn't do that.

Speaker 29 That is like, yeah, they're not supposed to look like that.

Speaker 6 That's one of the signs of a serious

Speaker 6 20 times bigger than the other people.

Speaker 6 It's bad.

Speaker 6 If I cared about this man, I would get him to a hospital immediately. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And to be clear, I don't.

Speaker 6 I kind of wonder, the liver, a filtering organ, right?

Speaker 29 It takes the bad stuff out. I felt like if that's all you eat, you're going to concentrate the bad stuff.

Speaker 6 She's going to get vitamin A poisoning, which he almost certainly has by now. Did someone like slip him up bear liver or something? Polar bear liver? Like, what

Speaker 6 is going on here? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 29 He went up the food chain until he ate that wolf's liver and then put it on his head.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's very unclear to me, is he actually eating that much liver? Like, there's videos where he does, but like on a daily basis, he's also taking gear.

Speaker 6 So maybe he has a normal diet in order to, like, you know, outside of it. And this is just for show.
There's been a lot of theorizing about that, and we just don't know.

Speaker 6 But either way, I think it's safe to say this is a sick man, right? This is not a well person.

Speaker 29 His Instagram comments are not helping.

Speaker 6 Just give this man a gun immediately.

Speaker 41 Keep trying to fight Joe Rogan, but I believe you can do it.

Speaker 6 To be fair, right now, if someone is putting out a casting call for deranged man and like prophet in the desert, he looks exactly like that. Absolutely.
The incredible added before he went completely.

Speaker 6 He looks amazing. He looks incredible.
Yeah.

Speaker 41 He's got like two foot of beard.

Speaker 6 His hair is unkempt.

Speaker 29 Like, he looks like you know the mural of John Brown.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 29 John Brown is like yoked and really angry.

Speaker 6 That's what he looks like. Yes, he does.

Speaker 29 Different vibes.

Speaker 6 Speaking of different vibes, let's change off the vibes and play some ads.

Speaker 6 And we're back. So, friends, I got to play you this next video, which is after he gets out of jail, he goes to the Capitol.
And this is him going through security at the Capitol, as best I can tell.

Speaker 6 And he is, he's wearing like...

Speaker 6 Fucking waiting length pants, like pants that cut off just below your knee. So like they're high water sweat pants.
He's wearing like a sleeveless green hoodie and he has the hood up over his head.

Speaker 6 And then he's wearing a plate carrier and he's trying to go through capital security.

Speaker 6 It's just, it's just really funny.

Speaker 6 It's just two ladies in like security uniforms. They're letting him try to go through.

Speaker 6 And I think this proves that he's... If he was wearing ceramic plates, I don't think it would set off the metal detector.
No, it does. So he's got to be wearing those cheap AR-500 metal plates.

Speaker 41 Oh, it's set up a detector. Wow.

Speaker 6 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 6 I mean, it's possible. This doesn't look like just a weight vest.
That looks like just a normal plate carrier, although it's a 511 Tact.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it looks like... Yeah.

Speaker 6 So I think he's just got AR-500 plates in there.

Speaker 29 Of course. I mean, they're probably just weight plates.

Speaker 24 They may not even be AR-510.

Speaker 6 Yeah, they may not even be ballistic.

Speaker 6 He tells them it's his exoskeleton so he has to keep it on i don't think he gets in wearing this

Speaker 6 oh no i can't it's my skeleton and i'll do nothing

Speaker 6 oh man i love i love the liver king i was really not expecting him to turn into a lobster but apparently that's just where we're at now

Speaker 6 that's where we're at yeah yeah yeah you're right given his redness so

Speaker 6 there's one more video from his time in austin before we'll get back to the liver king compound and see the liver queen a little oh no

Speaker 29 that that person is going through like the mental health equivalent of the cue course right now watching their one source of income yeah

Speaker 6 yeah i don't know they i i i have to hope if you're the liver queen you have pretty good like insurance for the liver king yeah you hope so i don't know how long they've been liver monarchs together whether she was with him before he went completely fucking bongas or i don't know how much time there was before that happened to be honest yeah was it was it an arranged marriage like like previous monarchies

Speaker 6 yeah sure yeah yeah she's actually from the lung family but they had to marry her off to forge an alliance

Speaker 29 i'm gonna have to demand that we watch is lk's back vulnerable if he only stands to strike because

Speaker 6 i need to see that you there's a lot of liver king fighting videos and okay none of them are are all that impressive uh

Speaker 29 except one where he fights like a horse-sized duck or 100 duck-sized horses there's a video where he goes hunting with his kid, uh, and he's talking about how it's like a prival experience.

Speaker 6 But all that happens is he pays a guy to take him into the woods like 40 feet away from a deer, and then they just shoot the deer

Speaker 6 outside where his Native American guy is like, Okay, you can shoot it now.

Speaker 6 It's really funny, it's pretty good. Okay,

Speaker 6 what?

Speaker 6 What the fuck?

Speaker 6 He's just cram walking like a gorilla down like the hall of his hotel.

Speaker 6 It's beautiful stuff. It's good stuff.

Speaker 6 What's happening now? He's doing fake martial arts.

Speaker 29 And he comes out the door straight

Speaker 6 crab wolf. Yeah, he's just doing this gorilla crab walk that he does his like fist bump.

Speaker 6 He has like a little chant that he makes people say.

Speaker 29 And he appears to be wearing an ankle monitor.

Speaker 6 Yeah, he is wearing an ankle monitor. Yes, that's my favorite part of the video.
He does have to wear an ankle monitor now.

Speaker 40 Someone's commenting.

Speaker 6 It's not an ancestral ankle monitor.

Speaker 6 I can't emphasize enough, that is not a normal crowd walk. I don't know how to describe what that is.

Speaker 6 It genuinely defies description. It is the weirdest, one of the weirdest forms of motion I've ever seen a Cuban King undertake.
Imagine if a gorilla was drunk.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 we're going to go back to ads real quick. And then when we come back, we're going to finally see the liver queen and him back in his compound talking to his fellow friends

Speaker 6 about how things are really good, how he wanted to get arrested for threatening Joe Rogan, how it's a blessing to have a restraining order against him and to not be able to be in possession of his guns anymore.

Speaker 6 And we're back. And I'm going to play that video for you guys once again.
So he is standing in the yard of the Liver King compound. His wife is drinking a glass of wine next to him.

Speaker 6 And at a point in this, kind of reluctantly takes his hand. They are listening to a

Speaker 6 like, I think it's a, I think you'd call it a trance remix of Mike Posner's I Took a Pill in a Pizza song. I don't know why.
It's just blasting over the yard as he talks, as he rants about his arrest.

Speaker 6 there's zero grace. There's zero.

Speaker 42 I really understand. I really, I get it.
I really do.

Speaker 6 And I'm not asking for it. I don't need it.

Speaker 6 But it's

Speaker 6 hard.

Speaker 6 The hardest part's over.

Speaker 6 The hardest part's fucking over. That's great.

Speaker 42 That's really good.

Speaker 6 The hardest part's over, getting arrested.

Speaker 6 You're threatening Joe Rogan.

Speaker 6 His wife really doesn't want to take his hand he has a kefir draped around his shoulders a tactical kefir notice he's wearing a tactical kefir he loves his tactical kefir

Speaker 6 okay it's good stuff um yeah he's he's just doing he's just doing really really healthy yeah it he seems to have like added mag pouches for this one which suggests that he removed them for his trip to the capital he didn't have to remove the mag pouches to go to the capital so he really thought it through and thought i bet i can wear it if i take the mag pouches off

Speaker 6 yeah which is fascinating to me pufferfish is incredible it does look like a puppet

Speaker 29 it looks like he's taken so many steroids that he is literally inflated and they are trying to get out yeah yeah uh so in this last video that we're going to play he's sitting on a throne

Speaker 28 He's got a throne.

Speaker 6 He talks about how he thinks the throne is silly now and how he wouldn't have liked past Liver King and how people talk about how he's lost it. And he thinks that's a compliment because

Speaker 6 I think he's making a point about ego ego death here, but it's not very coherent. So, here's the liver king talking about how it's good to lose your mind.

Speaker 26 Walking through the foyer,

Speaker 26 I saw these uh old thrones, and I just kind of laughed. I was like, Oh, God, you know,

Speaker 26 kind of a little bit embarrassed. And I thought, oh, you know what? I don't think I made a video today.

Speaker 26 I said I was going to, so I better, I better deliver on it, but it was Sunday,

Speaker 26 Family Day, God's Day, Capital G Day.

Speaker 26 And we did that then, man.

Speaker 26 That was good. And so I'm walking by this one, this throne, old throne, and I thought, Buffalo's real.
That's legit. That's going to stay.
But I thought, oh my God. You know, the predecessor, me,

Speaker 26 I would have hated me too.

Speaker 26 I read some comments today or yesterday, and I saw he's losing a lot. and

Speaker 26 this is

Speaker 26 says it on my desk

Speaker 26 lose yourself

Speaker 26 the thing is like when you actually lose yourself though

Speaker 26 and you lose the ego

Speaker 26 you can't really tell people you know because then it's like hey yeah I actually shed my ego

Speaker 26 and now I'm better you know that's the ego talking so if other people are seeing it whoa thank you thank you or i can also go back to to the egomaniac or whatever it is.

Speaker 6 So here's the thing, folks. The new DSM that's coming out, I think they're going to increase the age at which you could be diagnosed as a schizophrenic for a male up to like 40 or something like that.

Speaker 6 And boy, howdy. Oh, no.

Speaker 6 Real, truly, like real Ross Putin vibes from this one. He's got like a hood on.

Speaker 6 He really is obsessed because

Speaker 6 his hair, he's got less and less of it every day.

Speaker 6 That'll happen if you you with the testosterone would you taking nothing but pure test yes yeah yeah when you pour testosterone on your cereal in the morning yeah so anyway that's that's my update for everyone on the liver king he's doing well i'll be shocked if he's alive in a year what a fantastic man he's got kids but he also makes them eat raw testicles so i don't know if they're going to be worse off

Speaker 6 yeah

Speaker 6 yeah i think that is probably one of those rare state should intervene moments yeah something should happen something should be done here yeah yeah this uh this doesn't seem like a healthy guy i don't know if you should eat just organ meats no apparently like eating a diet that is entirely consists of raw organs uh random pharmaceuticals and gear makes you like talk exactly the same as like a 19 year old art student

Speaker 6 yeah like another income

Speaker 6 like like

Speaker 6 enough ketamine to like tranquilize a horse these are apparently equivalent states of being this is what i've learned from this yep yeah i think ketamine is one possible explanation because some of his, some of his behavior is definitely like ketamine-coded.

Speaker 6 Yeah,

Speaker 6 but I also think there's a good chance that this is just like he's been abusing drugs for such a long period of time that his, he's just suffering permanent brain damage now at this point, right?

Speaker 6 Like he, he's, he's not able to like, he's not very cogent anymore. And I don't know, I feel like the people who are still around him are largely taking advantage of him for money.

Speaker 6 Like, he was good at making money at one point, there's still cash flooding in, yeah, and that's that's kind of what's happening here.

Speaker 6 But on the other hand, like, this is this guy made his own hell, he made his own bed, he's getting exactly what he wants.

Speaker 29 Yeah, he lied to people about the health, which is a pretty fucked up thing to do.

Speaker 6 Like, uh, yeah,

Speaker 29 I didn't have a lot of sympathy for the living king.

Speaker 6 No, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the liver king, anyway. Any questions about the liver king before we roll out?

Speaker 6 I mean, so many, Robert, more than more than you can ever imagine.

Speaker 29 But,

Speaker 6 okay,

Speaker 6 on a scale of like 0.01 to 1 Gaddafi, how are his golden ARs?

Speaker 6 I mean, they're golden ARs.

Speaker 6 Like, they're fine. Like, they are, like, they're definitely like dictator-grade ARs.
I'll give them that. Like, if you, if you saw that in like some fucking

Speaker 6 junta leader, you know, carrying around and screaming about executing his enemies, you'd be like, yeah, that fits.

Speaker 6 That said, I do think if you are going to be carrying a gold-plated weapon, an ar is just inherently less impressive than an ak-47 like a golden a golden ak-47 says something about you and a golden ar just says that you have like fifteen thousand dollars to light on fire for no good reason whereas a gold-plated ak-47 says you've probably mixed cocaine and gunpowder you know

Speaker 6 Yeah, why not? Yeah.

Speaker 29 That's some advice for the Liver King for free.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 You have to be sending positive messages out into the world with your apparel. Exactly.
Exactly.

Speaker 29 Yeah, which is why I'm wearing the derpiest wolf my friends ever seen.

Speaker 6 You guys have to just look, find the fucking wolf.

Speaker 29 Like, the indignity of it being killed is

Speaker 29 not its final indignity, as it turns out.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah.
No, that's, that's as bad as it can go for a wolf.

Speaker 29 Yeah, pretty much. You go from the top of the food chain to this guy's balding

Speaker 6 Ukrainian.

Speaker 29 Yeah, I know. Have a fucking vegetable, everyone.
That's what I I have for you.

Speaker 6 Yeah, have vegetables. Eat more vegetables.

Speaker 40 Oh, we haven't talked about how he squats. He doesn't squat with the bar.

Speaker 41 He squats with the rag.

Speaker 6 We squat with the rag.

Speaker 6 Oh, yeah. No, we forgot to mention that.
That is very funny. Yeah.

Speaker 29 God.

Speaker 29 Go on this Instagram. It's a terrible fucking time to be alive.
Go on his Instagram.

Speaker 5 It's funny.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's really funny. Have some fun.
Enjoy the Liver King's Instagram while he's still alive for another like four to six months. I'm not taking any pleasure in this.
I don't want him to die.

Speaker 6 I'm just looking at a man and being like, well, that's not going to last much longer. Yeah,

Speaker 29 this is like watching a car without brakes traveling downhill at speed.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 28 All right, everyone.

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Speaker 24 This is It Could Happen here, Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis.

Speaker 24 Today, I am joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and later a special report by Robert Evans. This episode, we are covering the week of June 25th to July 2nd.
It is the end of Pride Month.

Speaker 24 It was Canada Day. 4th of July is coming up.
I will say no one in our team wished me a happy Canada Day. Not that I noticed.

Speaker 29 That's correct.

Speaker 6 I hate the Trump administration because I can't do my Death to Canada jokes anymore. It sucks.
It's terrible.

Speaker 24 Canada, welcome to the resistance. I'm going to start with a brief news roundup because there's been so many news stories this past week that we cannot do big sections on all of them.

Speaker 24 We already have three main stories, but there's some mini stories that I didn't want to get forgotten.

Speaker 24 I'm going to start by talking about the Supreme Court, which has now limited the ability of lower court judges to use nationwide injunctions.

Speaker 24 So now, Trump's order to end a birthright citizenship can be enforced, if even temporarily, for those who are not affiliated with the actual court cases on the constitutionality of ending birthright citizenship.

Speaker 24 What this means on a broader scale is that Trump's very obviously illegal executive orders can now be enforced in a lot of states because the injunctions that judges are putting on only apply to the people in those specific cases.

Speaker 24 So enforcement of the orders can start before the final order on if it's legal or not gets issued.

Speaker 24 So So this is really bad because it will cause some intense, if temporary, like short-term headaches for many people whose now citizenship is

Speaker 24 in a big question, Mark.

Speaker 24 But this also affects many other cases regarding judges' ability to actually issue injunctions that affect things across the whole country.

Speaker 6 Yeah, there is some sort of like weird hack shit you can do where like

Speaker 6 there's been some stuff the judges have been trying to do and to be like everyone in the country is a plaintiff or whatever the fuck yeah and and i don't know how long that's gonna hold up and like and like the fuck thing about this is again it's just like

Speaker 6 what this means is the trump administration can kind of do whatever the fuck they want and it's just legal until the supreme court like looks at it and that's completely unhinged yeah like egregiously illegal orders can now be enforced for a period of months to years yeah as the court cases eventually will churn their way up to the Supreme Court.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and this is a particularly egregious one, too, because like birthright citizenship is so obviously, it's just literally in the Constitution.

Speaker 6 It's literally the Constitution just says if you're born here, you're a citizen.

Speaker 29 Yeah, well, it says the section of the amendment that is under question is subject to the authority thereof, which is what is being litigated here.

Speaker 29 There is a section there that I guess is perceived by some people to be debatable. It doesn't seem very debatable to me, right?

Speaker 6 No, it's completely insane.

Speaker 6 It's like unhinged shit. Like it's like, it's like it's like stuff you wouldn't have seen even from like unhinged conservative legal cranks 15 years ago.

Speaker 29 You absolutely would have seen this particular case, unfortunately.

Speaker 6 Well, I guess the absolute most unhinged, maybe, but like you wouldn't have seen even like, I don't know,

Speaker 6 the normal like person on Fox News kind of unhinged arguing this even like 15 years ago.

Speaker 29 And now this was like on the on the blogs that have the, you know, the GeoCities era web design.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 24 Yeah. Trying Trying to restrict and quantify citizenship is going to be probably the main theme of this episode, as we will get to in the future.

Speaker 24 And if even temporarily, trying to strip the citizenship of already thousands, hundreds of thousands of people who are who live in this country is incredibly worrying considering the massive amount of increased funding that ICE is about to receive.

Speaker 24 Speaking of ICE, second little mini story, an explosive ice raid in Huntington Park, California. Bortak and ICE agents used explosives to breach and raid the home of U.S.
citizens.

Speaker 24 A drone was sent into the home after explosives shattered the windows, sending glass shards flying into the home occupied by a mother and two young children.

Speaker 24 The target of the raid was not in the home. Now, Border Patrol was looking for a man that got into a car accident during a previous ICE raid, who was questioned at the scene and was allowed to leave.

Speaker 24 But now, the DHS alleges the man was obstructing the actions of ICE when he rammed his car into a vehicle carrying CBP agents.

Speaker 24 Though witnesses at the scene say that the feds brake-checked, leading to a rear ending the man turned himself in on friday after the raid so what actually happened here is that ice caused a car accident and in response they blew up the home of u.s citizens yeah well they dynamically breached yeah a home with a little child in in right like you see in the video two two young kids i think like a a six-year-old and a two-year-old yeah you see them the presumably the mother of the two

Speaker 24 yeah with the child in her arms leaving they sent a fucking drone in there they're acting like it's a house full of like active combatants.

Speaker 24 You have like dozens, dozens of people in military fatigues raiding this home.

Speaker 29 Yeah, except they didn't do it in such a fashion as you would if you if you were actually worried, right? Like they didn't, there wasn't a flashbang, right?

Speaker 29 They breached, stood around for a while, sent a drone in. They didn't dynamically breach in a dynamic way, right? Like they would if they were expecting a real threat.

Speaker 6 No, they just wanted to blow up this person's fucking house because they were pissed off that

Speaker 6 they caused a car accident. Yes.

Speaker 6 These are the tiniest fucking babysecer police I have ever seen in my entire goddamn life.

Speaker 6 Fucking Christ.

Speaker 24 It reminds me of that one like picture of like a police raid in the 90s that conservatives used to use in terms of like the governments taking over of this of this of this like, you know, retro 90s SWAT cop like pointing a gun at like a family that's like hiding in like a closet.

Speaker 29 The Alian Gonzalez raid, do you mean?

Speaker 24 Yeah.

Speaker 24 And how much this was used as like fear of like federal overreach, like used by conservatives. And now this is like their entire platform is raiding the home of U.S.
citizens.

Speaker 29 Yeah.

Speaker 29 It's probably worth noting, I believe Huntington Park, their mayor, has directed their police to enforce the California law, which requires law enforcement officers to identify themselves, right?

Speaker 29 It's been very common to see ICE agents refuse to identify themselves and wear masks, right?

Speaker 29 And I believe this was passed by their council and then their mayor, whose name is Arturo Flores, released a statement calling the ICE abductions masked abductions and directing his police to intervene if what was happening was unlawful or unauthorized.

Speaker 29 And I can't help but think that that is why we saw this happen here, right? I think it may not be so much the car crash as a chance to do something in this city, which has

Speaker 29 been one of the very few that has taken meaningful action to prevent this.

Speaker 24 Absolutely. Because people don't like ICE.
There's new ICE approval ratings that came out by Quinnipiac on June 24th, 2025. Net approval of ICE, negative 17%.

Speaker 24 Democrats, negative 80%. Independents, negative 32%.
This is the centrist position. Independents, negative 32%.

Speaker 29 Oh, yeah. You've got like Bush admin staffers saying abolish ICE.
It's a win for Mia.

Speaker 6 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 24 GOP is up 60, but that's it. This is like the centrist position now.
And also, 60% is nearly half the GOP.

Speaker 6 Like people don't like ICE.

Speaker 24 The majority of people in this country don't like ICE. Negative 17%.

Speaker 24 Candidates need to run on abolishing ICE. This is like one of the most important issues facing the country right now.
And they are wildly unpopular, including for independents.

Speaker 24 This is this that abolishing ice should be the centrist position.

Speaker 6 Yeah, well, but this is, but this is, this is sort of the problem, right?

Speaker 6 Which is that the Democrats did this, like, well, at least some of them, at least AOC did, and so some of the Democratic wave ran on that in 2018.

Speaker 28 And then the Democrats were just like, eat shit, we're never going to do that again.

Speaker 6 And like, AOC never fucking mentioned it again. Like, they all came into power and were like, okay, we have to do all this stupid border crackdown shit.
And it's like, they need to.

Speaker 6 They fucking need to to do this. Yeah.

Speaker 24 But people should bring it back. I think that the data here is in support.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 And like, ICE is younger than I am. ICE is younger than all of us.

Speaker 24 Like, ICE is a fucking fake agency.

Speaker 29 And DHS is younger than most of us. Yeah.

Speaker 24 Like, the ICE as an agency should be like disappearing. We should like try to be forgiven for it over the course of hundreds of years.
Like, yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 29 People want to learn more about the history of DHS. I did a series about Title 42 where I talk about it a whole lot.

Speaker 24 Speaking of agencies that shouldn't exist, the BBC cut the feed of the Glasfury Music Festival during Kneecap's performance to block pro-Palestinian messaging, but they failed to stop Bob Villan from leading a Death to the IDF chant.

Speaker 6 Bob Vylon? From being

Speaker 6 a pain, okay.

Speaker 6 It's like, what? Hold on, base Bob Dylan, babe, Bob Villain.

Speaker 24 They are a punk rap group, and they were leading Death to the IDF chants broadcast live on the stage.

Speaker 24 Both of these music groups, Kneecap and Bob Villain, are now under investigation by the British police from their political comments at this music festival. And the U.S.

Speaker 24 State Department has revoked Bob Villain's work visa ahead of an upcoming U.S. tour as punishment for criticizing the military of a foreign country.
The party of free speech strikes once again.

Speaker 29 Yeah, I do want to say that, like, as a consumer of Glastonbury Music Festival content, right?

Speaker 29 I guess I as a British person yeah and at the target like age demographic I guess what this has overshadowed is the massive amount of support for the Palestinian cause that you saw like go watch a Glastonbury video and you will not not see Palestinian flags in the crowd most of them you will hear the artists acknowledging that there is a genocide in Palestine right

Speaker 29 I don't know if anyone at the BBC is familiar with Bob Villain.

Speaker 29 Like, I'm sure they've played their music, but whoever made the choice to stream them and not stream kneecap clearly had not done a like a fucking, like a Wikipedia level research because you know what you're getting into with these guys.

Speaker 29 Both the people in the band are called Bobby Villain, right? No, that's SJ name that they use in order to have a little bit of privacy.

Speaker 29 But there's an interview with him a while ago where he's like, yeah, I just like pissing people off because it's the only thing that brings me joy in this miserable fucking country.

Speaker 6 Incredible.

Speaker 29 Yeah, they've been very outspoken about a large number of things.

Speaker 6 The British police have been going completely unhinged with this too. The parliament's currently, I don't know what the result is, I think they might have voted to do it already.

Speaker 6 They've been trying to vote to make it illegal for Palestinian action to exist

Speaker 6 after they did a pretty big action at

Speaker 6 Palestine action, yeah. Yeah, after a Palestinian action did a pretty big action at a fucking British arms manufacturer that sells to Israel.
So they're going so unhinged on all of this shit.

Speaker 24 And they've been going after NECAP for years. There's multiple investigations into NECAP now.
You should check out NECAP's new movie. It's pretty good.

Speaker 24 For our first main story, I guess I'll throw to James to discuss denaturalization. Yeah.

Speaker 29 Yeah, less exciting than Glasterby Music Festival. So denaturalization, if you're not familiar, the removal of U.S.
citizenship from people who became U.S. citizens at some point in their life.

Speaker 29 The DOJ has issued instructions to its civil division employees to pursue denaturalization proceedings against naturalized U.S.

Speaker 29 citizens, quote, in all cases permitted by law and supported by the evidence.

Speaker 29 It goes on to list some categories.

Speaker 29 These include some of the things you might expect, including like being in access to terrorism and organized crime, people who engaged in war crimes, people who committed violent crimes or failed to disclose felonies on their application for naturalization.

Speaker 29 But they also include fraud, both against private individuals and against Medicaid, Medicare, and the PayCheck Protection Plan, maybe program, the PPP,

Speaker 29 COVID-era government bailout, right? The last one, however, is the most concerning. Quote, any cases referred to the civil division that the division considers sufficiently important to pursue.

Speaker 5 Any cases that are found to be sufficient?

Speaker 24 Sufficiently important.

Speaker 29 Just if people aren't familiar, right, civil and criminal law are distinct, right? Civil law has a lower burden of proof. And crucially, the accused person is not entitled to legal representation.

Speaker 29 In addition, this could have trickle-down effects, right? Children of naturalized citizens are also citizens. So their citizenship derives from their parents' citizenship.

Speaker 29 So it's possible that children who are not even accused of doing anything wrong could be de naturalized, not naturalized, de-citizenized, like, and left stateless, right?

Speaker 29 Many of these children will not be dual nationals.

Speaker 24 This is another big problem with like ending birthright citizenship.

Speaker 29 Yes, it will leave people.

Speaker 29 So like, this is something that I do feel like, much like I feel like in the UK, people should have pushed back against the government prosecuting people for saying shit that was fucking hateful and disgusting about migrants when there was a stabbing attack last year.

Speaker 29 I still feel people should have pushed back because it's not a good situation when the government gets to decide what you can and can't think. Likewise, in this instance.

Speaker 29 Nations in the global north have been leaving people who fought for the or people who are accused of fighting for the Islamic State or joining the Islamic State stateless for a long time.

Speaker 29 And I think that was a bad precedent. And they were able to, as we'll get into, they will always use an odious person as the first example, right, to set the precedent and then go from there.
Yep.

Speaker 29 So, in the odious person example, in this case, it's someone called Elliot Duke. They have been denaturalized.
Duke was a UK citizen, served in the United States military while serving in Germany.

Speaker 29 They received and distributed child sex abuse material, according to the DOJ. They were later contacted by the FBI about this and prosecuted.

Speaker 29 The DOJ stated that their case was identified as part of Operation Prison Lookout, which aims to identify sex offenders who have naturalized. I haven't seen any reporting on Prison Lookout.

Speaker 29 It's in the press release, but I think maybe people don't read to the bottom, but it appears that the DOJ, this case has been going on for months, the Duke case, right?

Speaker 29 And so the DOJ, as early as February this year, was looking through prosecution records to find naturalized citizens who have been convicted of sex crimes.

Speaker 29 Duke was not able to get an attorney to represent them. They also, it appears, renounced their UK citizenship, and it's not very clear what happens now, right?

Speaker 29 Like in other stateless person cases, where does this person go? Denaturalization has been used before, right?

Speaker 29 The time when the United States did the most denaturalization was during the second Red Scare, Second Red Scare, aka McCarthyism, right?

Speaker 24 And oh boy, are they trying to bring it back?

Speaker 6 Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 29 20,000 cases a year in the McCarthy era.

Speaker 29 For reference, stats I could find suggest about 25 million naturalized citizens in the United States.

Speaker 29 Both Obama, Obama had something called Operation Janus that identified people who were eligible for denaturalization.

Speaker 29 Trump One also had higher rates of denaturalization, but nothing on this McCarthy era scale, right? People will be familiar with denaturalization also before that.

Speaker 29 It happened to Emma Goldman, for example. Yep.

Speaker 24 One other story from this week that's kind of related is it was announced that tool to check the citizenship status of all americans this is the first time we've had a centralized tool like this or we've attempted to yeah the u.s has for a while has resisted creating like a dossier of like official citizens because this is like a kind of problematic thing to have there's a lot of issues with this concept Actually verifying that this list is accurate is very tricky.

Speaker 24 You have to add people who have been naturalized, how they've been naturalized.

Speaker 24 There's There's other people who acquire citizenship through other means than the standard like naturalization process, including through your parents.

Speaker 24 There's the Child Citizenship Act of 2000, where if one of your parents is a U.S. citizen and you are not a U.S.
citizen, but you live with your U.S.

Speaker 24 citizen parent while being a legal permanent resident, that then gives you automatic citizenship, but you don't need to apply for the naturalization process.

Speaker 24 So this is like a really weird thing to prove. You have to like apply for a certificate or apply for a passport as proof of citizenship.
How would those cases be added to this list?

Speaker 24 This is an incredibly problematic thing to have, and it's going to be used mainly just to hunt people down and try to deport them.

Speaker 29 Yeah, massive information security risk.

Speaker 24 It's really problematic and tied in with these other denaturalization programs. It's a really worrying sign of where things are going to be going.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 29 Talking of worrying signs, this is a worrying sign that we have to pivot to advertisements.

Speaker 24 All right, we are back.

Speaker 24 James, you do have one piece of good news in the immigration front.

Speaker 29 Well, I do, Garrison, but I got to hit you with some bad news first, buddy.

Speaker 24 That's the way this show works.

Speaker 29 That's how we do it here at CoolZone Media.

Speaker 24 It could happen here special.

Speaker 29 Immigrant Defenders Law Center, a legal non-profit, says one of their clients, Julie Calderon, was abducted by armed men in Los Angeles and taken to San Isidro.

Speaker 29 People are not familiar, San Isidro is the border that you might call San Diego border, right? The town that actually has the physical nexus with Tijuana is San Isidro.

Speaker 29 The city of San Diego also has some land down there. She was told at San Isidro that she was to sign voluntary deportation papers.
She very reasonably refused, asked to see a lawyer and a judge.

Speaker 29 And at this point, she was taken and returned to the armed men and is now being detained in a warehouse with no beds, blankets, or food.

Speaker 29 She was able to make a call to her family from a blocked number. She described the people as bounty hunters.
And at this point, she says she has not seen any uniformed officers in her detention.

Speaker 29 She's being detained in an area where men and women are mixed, which is not usual in Border Patrol detention.

Speaker 29 And according to IMDEF, according to IMDEF, she has not been able to shower and the only water source is a sink.

Speaker 29 The Mexican consulate has been informed and thinks that she might now be in the Otai Mesa detention center.

Speaker 29 But because she's not showing up on the ICE detainee locator, they don't know that for sure. And they are therefore still a little bit unclear on where this lady has gone.

Speaker 29 I have seen reports of bounty hunters. Many of you have sent them to me.
I have seen none that I find to be credible before this.

Speaker 29 IMDEF are an established group. They are not people who I've found to be prone to sort of making things up or exaggerating.
Like, I trust them as a source.

Speaker 6 And this is deeply, deeply worrying.

Speaker 29 I don't know why it's not getting more coverage other than most people on the migration and border beat perhaps don't speak Spanish or have actually just turned up on this beat a few weeks ago and have no notion of like who the actors and these groups are.

Speaker 29 and they tend to go off government press releases. This is like shit that we haven't seen in the United States since I know the Fugitive Slave Act.

Speaker 6 Like, it's appalling. Yeah, this is like the most just actual straight-up 1930s Nazi shit that we've seen from them.

Speaker 6 It's hideous.

Speaker 29 Yeah, it's happening here in San Diego. But it's also, of course, like as Californians, we are entering this time with the most cowardly

Speaker 29 and like pathetic governor that we've had in a long time. Like, Arnold Torchenego is a Republican, but I bet he'd have handled this better than Newsom, who is just a slime ball.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Like, the fact that Newsom isn't like, like, if this was happening in fucking Illinois, Pritcher would have SWAT teams.
Like, these, these, these people would be, like, dead right now.

Speaker 6 But, like, this is, this is completely fucking unhinged. Yeah.
No, this is. What the fuck? Yeah.

Speaker 24 James, I was, I was promised good news after the break.

Speaker 40 You're right, Garrison.

Speaker 29 And I do have some lucky you. Finally, a judge has ordered that Trump's sweeping asylum ban exceeds his authority as president and granted broad class protection.

Speaker 29 So we're going to see, like, literally, this happened maybe 30 minutes before we started recording. I'm going to read over the court documents.

Speaker 29 I've linked them in the notes here and see what this means.

Speaker 29 But it suggests that Trump's authority under the Immigration Naturalization Act doesn't allow him to just say we're not doing asylum anymore.

Speaker 29 And therefore, that could mean that it's possible for people to once again apply for asylum in the United States. I

Speaker 6 don't know how that will look.

Speaker 29 The Biden administration had great success gating asylum through CBP1, right?

Speaker 29 And making it practically impossible for many people, people who have darker skin, people who don't have fancy ass cell phones, people who don't have access to Wi-Fi, et cetera, et cetera, to apply for asylum.

Speaker 29 That was the Biden administration. The people who we're supposed to think are good.

Speaker 6 They were terrible for migrants.

Speaker 6 But

Speaker 29 they got that through, right?

Speaker 29 So what we'll see from the Trump administration, I don't imagine we will see a return to like regular Title VIII asylum processing as we saw.

Speaker 29 Like, I don't know, last time we saw it, I guess, was in the Obama area, even that was pretty bad. So, yeah, I don't know what we'll see here.

Speaker 24 All right, now I'm going to throw to Robert Evans for a special report on the Diddy trial.

Speaker 6 Hey, everybody, Robert here. I guess I'm our resident P Diddy expert because I did the bastards episodes on him.
Just felt like it was appropriate to give y'all a brief update.

Speaker 6 So, on the day that we record this, which is Wednesday, the 2nd of July, Sean Deddy Combs was found guilty on two of the five charges in his trial.

Speaker 6 He was being charged with racketeering conspiracy and sex trafficking, and he was not found guilty of racketeering conspiracy or of both sex trafficking counts, each of which carried 15-year mandatory minimums.

Speaker 6 But he was found guilty on two counts of transportation to engage in prostitution. These were for one for a woman woman who was pseudonymed Jane and one for his former partner, Cassie Ventura.

Speaker 6 So, you know,

Speaker 6 this is not what people who understand the case had hoped entirely, right? Like, this is not ideal. It's not nothing, but it's not ideal.
Now, if you're looking at like, why did this happen, right?

Speaker 6 Why didn't he get convicted on these higher charges he was absolutely guilty of? And it's because the prosecutors fucked up, right?

Speaker 6 There were a number of different felony charges they could have gone after him for that were less difficult to prove than racketeering and sex trafficking. And Diddy had good lawyers, right?

Speaker 6 And there's a lot of weirdness about like, well, they didn't go after him for the guns and drugs that he had both at his properties or for a number of the other things that they could have gone after him.

Speaker 6 You know, this is because prosecutors have to make choices as to like what to charge someone with.

Speaker 6 And they tried for some of the harder stuff that was always going to be a little more difficult to prove. Now, the two charges he's been convicted on, he could do up to 20 years.

Speaker 6 Each has up to a maximum 10-year sentence, so he could get sentenced to do 10 years for each.

Speaker 6 Prosecutors have said that they're looking for a four to five-year prison sentence, which I think is much too light. 20 years would be,

Speaker 6 I would say, like, okay,

Speaker 6 that's a serious punishment.

Speaker 6 Anything over, you know, 10 years or over, I would say that's still at least, you know, we can say it's not all the things you should have been convicted on, but that's not, you can't, you know, no one's going to spit at 10 years in prison, especially at his age.

Speaker 6 He's in his mid-50s right now. But four or five years, you know, I wouldn't quite say that's a slap on the wrist, but it's not nearly what is deserved here, right?

Speaker 6 Now, you do with federal sentences like this tend to serve a lot more of this. This is not a whole, and he'll be out in a year kind of situation.

Speaker 6 One of the things that's kind of worth noting here is that he and his team did ask for bail while he waited for, because next week he's going to, they're going to like set up when he's going to get sentenced, right?

Speaker 6 So that doesn't mean he'll be sentenced next week, but they'll be scheduling his sentencing next week, right? The legal system moves pretty slow. And his team asked for bail.

Speaker 6 There's evidence that he had people like setting up, getting extra security up around his, you know, primary home, and they were kind of expecting him to be able to go home today.

Speaker 6 That's not going to happen. The judge has denied his bail.
This is after one of his accusers basically said, hey, I think this guy is really dangerous. He has a history of going after his accusers.

Speaker 6 I don't feel safe with him out before sentencing. And that's maybe a good sign that maybe the judge will go further than the prosecutors, although I don't know if that's likely.

Speaker 6 Again, I'll be like, okay, well, at least this is serious if it gets 10 years or something like that. If it is four or five, I'm going to be pretty frustrated.
But, you know, that's the case.

Speaker 6 This is, we are talking about a billionaire going to court here. So any serious prison sentence is more than you usually would expect.

Speaker 6 And this is a guy who's been used to living with kind of impunity for a while. And if he spends years in prison, either way, it's not totally impunity.
But yeah, not ideal.

Speaker 6 That's the situation as it stands right now with P. Diddy.
You know, we'll see. Again, next week, they're going to schedule his sentencing.
So yeah, we'll see how things shake out.

Speaker 24 Now, we'll pass over to Mia to discuss our second main story this episode, the formerly named One Big Beautiful Bill.

Speaker 6 Oh, God.

Speaker 6 So, actually, reading through this, I refuse to call this anything other than the genocide budget because this budget, what it is designed to do, is a genocide. And that's not...
an exaggeration.

Speaker 24 Well, there's multiple types of killing included in this bill, not just genocide. The Medicare cuts, I think,

Speaker 24 aren't technically genocide, but they could lead to mass death. So

Speaker 24 we should be inclusive of all the types of deaths, I think.

Speaker 6 We'll get into the Medicaid shit later. We need to start with the mass deportation.
We want to do an ethnic cleansing. We want to just simply wipe out entire peoples who live in the U.S.

Speaker 6 And fucking deport them from this country.

Speaker 24 Right. And by we, you mean the bill, not you, Mia Wong, or us, CoolZone Media.
No, no,

Speaker 6 by we, I mean the Republican Party who fucking wrote this bill. Okay, just checking.
So, okay, what is actually in this?

Speaker 6 There's a very good write-up of this from the American Immigration Council, and a lot of the stuff is from there.

Speaker 6 Okay, so across Homeland Security and government affairs, the judiciary, and the military, the version of the budget that just passed the Senate allocates $170 billion

Speaker 6 to their fucking unhinged deportation shit. This would be the third largest military budget in the world.

Speaker 6 It is 30% larger than the military budget of Russia, which is currently fighting an active full-scale ground war, right? This is a genocide budget.

Speaker 6 They are trying to get $170 billion for all of their border enforcement shit because they want to do a genocide. They are trying to remove entire peoples from the United States.

Speaker 6 And to do that, they need this kind of money. Yeah.
So let's break down a little bit of where this money is fucking going. We're going to do a longer thing.

Speaker 6 I'm going to do a longer episode about this thing probably Tuesday, about like everything that's in this budget, but this needs to be understood.

Speaker 6 They are running $45 billion specifically for immigration detention.

Speaker 6 And as the American Immigration Council points out, that is at minimum $5.5 billion more dollars per year than the entire budget of the entire federal prison system.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 What the shit?

Speaker 6 That's again at minimum. That's like 40, it's like 14, it's like 14 and a half billion at minimum for detention, just just for immigration detention.

Speaker 6 Again, significantly over 50% larger than the budget for the fucking entire federal prison system they want to put into this.

Speaker 6 They're also giving out $3.5 billion to state and local governments spent on working with ICE.

Speaker 6 The American Immigration Council estimates this could be 125,000 holding beds for people, which is, and I quote, only just a bit below the current population of the entire federal prison system.

Speaker 24 They basically want to create a whole new prison system just for immigrants.

Speaker 6 yes yeah and again and again and i cannot emphasize this enough the united states has one of the largest prison systems on earth and they want to the the largest uh i think china might push it it's i think it's technically smaller than the chinese oh actually let me let me let me actually pull the numbers up yeah i i think it's technically smaller than america per capita yeah it's like it's like there's like no contest yeah well the statistics are weird because there's countries that have like a really really small number of people sure like in terms of like large countries for major countries for major companies not even close close yeah not even close now obviously that's also counting like state prisons but like still with our federal prison system is still like unlike unfathomably massive yeah and they basically want to double the size of it specifically just to fucking do this just just to do these deportations they there's 30 billion dollars in this for direct deportations and just like to hire 10 000 more ice agents which trump's also been calling for in executive orders yeah there is 48 billion dollars for building the wall and like border and like physical border enforcement infrastructure.

Speaker 6 There's an additional $5 billion for checkpoints and like border patrol like facilities and outposts and shit.

Speaker 6 There's also about $15 billion

Speaker 6 for states to do deportation shit. There's so much unhinged anti-immigrant shit in this bill that like, again, we don't have time to get into it here.

Speaker 6 This is going to be a full episode on fucking Tuesday.

Speaker 24 This is why you have people like Stephen Miller trying to rally the whole party in support of this bill, which massively raises the deficit, something that Elon's been complaining about quite famously.

Speaker 6 Yeah, a $5 trillion hole in the budget. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 24 Now there's all these Republican congressmen who constantly complain about the federal debt, who are totally fine increasing the federal debt massively.

Speaker 24 People compromising their fiscal conservatism in support of a bill that furthers the United States as a white supremacist penal colony.

Speaker 24 And if these senators and congressmen vote against it, then that will be used against them in future elections.

Speaker 24 Being flanked from further on the right with attack ads claiming that these senators failed to round up the illegals in not voting for the big, beautiful budget bill.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and I want to point this out, right? Like, they're not going to stop at immigrants. I need to make this incredibly clear.

Speaker 24 Once you have this infrastructure, you have to use it. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Okay, look, like, the people on the furthest left of the U.S. have talked about for a long time that this is a country that is built on genocide, right?

Speaker 6 This is an apparatus that is designed to turn the U.S.

Speaker 6 specifically into a machine to to and again

Speaker 6 I need to point this out the definition of genocide includes like like removing people from a place yeah right like that is a genocide if you if you force a bunch of people to if you round them up put them into camps and then fucking send them somewhere else that's a genocide that is what they are trying to do like laura loomer has been talking today about like the number she was citing was 65 million people, which is just every Latino person in the entire U.S.

Speaker 29 Yep, that's Latino people. That's what she's talking about.

Speaker 24 Specifically talking about how she wants to feed them to alligators, which we'll talk about later.

Speaker 29 Yes, the context of the number was feeding them to alligators. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Right.

Speaker 6 So, like, Trump has been joking for a long time about how if Stephen Miller got his way, there would be like 115 million people in this country and they would all look like Stephen Miller.

Speaker 6 Like, that's where they're going. And that's not like, oh, this is blah, blah, blah.
Like, this is the infrastructure for them to be able to do this.

Speaker 6 And so, like, killing this fucking bill is unbelievably important.

Speaker 6 We're going to get into more of the fucking unhinged shit in here, but, like, they only passed it by one vote in the house last time yeah and because of the way that that reconciliation works right if anything changes in the house version of the bill it has to go back to the senate where they also only barely passed it by like buying off susan collins it was a 50 50 split yeah in the senate yeah with like murkowski voting for it for example yeah so like you know on the one hand being able to pass this bill is precarious.

Speaker 6 On the other hand, if they do it, that limits the window for which we have to make ICE non-functional a lot, because as they ramp up this capacity, and it's going to take them a while to ramp up this capacity, right?

Speaker 6 Even if this passes, but like they haven't had the capacity to do the genocide they've been trying to do, right?

Speaker 6 This will give it to them.

Speaker 6 With this amount of resources, yeah, with the third largest military budget in the world, they can do this kind of shit. And we have to stop them before they get there.

Speaker 29 Yeah, like this is one of those call everyone you can in Congress situations. Like,

Speaker 29 I'm not always a big big call your rep person.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 We're going to get to at the end of this, like, how we've actually met, we've gotten provisions killed from this bill already. We're going to get to that later.

Speaker 6 We also need to talk about the Medicaid shit because, Garrison, you were saying, oh, I don't think it's going to be considered a genocide, but it's so killing.

Speaker 6 I actually disagree with that because, okay, let's explain what's going on with Medicaid. They want to do a trillion dollars of cuts.

Speaker 6 I think it's like just slightly under a trillion, or maybe it's actually a trillion dollars of cuts over the next 10 years to Medicaid.

Speaker 6 They want to put an 80-hour a month work requirement for Medicaid and food stamps.

Speaker 6 Now, if you are disabled, right, this is just like a fuck you die proposal because there are a lot of people who fucking can't work 80 hours a month.

Speaker 6 And this is just like literally eat shit and die, right?

Speaker 6 They're also expanding this shit, the work requirements to, well, they want these work requirements to apply to people who have children ages 13 and older.

Speaker 6 So if you are trying to like raise a child, fuck you, eat shit and die. And again, also, like, this is both Medicaid and Snap.

Speaker 6 So this is a targeted - the estimates by the CBO, this is per PBS, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that it will, that by 2034, 18.8 million people will be uninsured from this.

Speaker 6 It will kick 3 million people off of food stamps.

Speaker 6 A lot of those people are just going to be disabled and unbelievable numbers of people of those people are going to fucking die. And that's the point of this, right?

Speaker 6 Also, it's going to be just hideous for trans people who use Medicaid and Snap at enormous rates because disabled and trans people are like the two poorest populations in the US.

Speaker 6 It's fucking hideous.

Speaker 24 These systems are already so hard to get in on and stay on.

Speaker 24 Like both, like both Snap and Medicaid require substantial revisions and reforms to make them easier to access, to strengthen the infrastructure capacity of these things, to get more people on them.

Speaker 24 They need more funding. This is basically trying to take take an already kind of dying system and just take it out back and shoot it in the head.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Well, and they intentionally just want it to be like harder and more frustrating and shitty to use.

Speaker 6 Like they literally rolled back, like part of this bill is rolling back a bunch of reforms that Biden made to make it like slightly easier to get on. Yeah.
And this is just going like, yeah, fuck you.

Speaker 6 This is going to be an absolute fucking catastrophe.

Speaker 6 Not just because of the people that it immediately affects, although it is, again, going to kill unbelievable numbers of people.

Speaker 6 The other thing with this is that this is going to fucking annihilate rural hospitals because rural hospitals get a huge amount of their money from Medicaid.

Speaker 6 And, you know, there's a very good Kaiser Family Foundation report where they talk about how like, yeah, one in four people in rural areas get their health insurance from Medicaid.

Speaker 6 And it's estimated $155 billion decrease in

Speaker 6 money to hospitals in rural regions over the course of a decade. Those hospitals are already closing.
Those hospitals are fucking gone. Like

Speaker 6 if this fucking passes as is, and there is a provision in there that's like, oh, we're going to spend $50 billion on like, to give money to rural hospitals, that's not enough.

Speaker 6 That's like, that's a third of the amount that they're getting cut by, right? Like, and even, and even if those hospitals are open, how the fuck are people going to pay for the treatments?

Speaker 6 Because they're now kick off Medicaid. But this is going to fucking just absolutely eviscerate like the tiny remains of our rural healthcare system, which is a complete fucking symbolic mess.

Speaker 6 This is just going to fucking liquidate it.

Speaker 6 It is going to cause mass suffering and death on a scale that like we are going to look look back at the height of the opioid crisis and like in fucking nostalgia because we're going to have the opioid crisis and this at the same time.

Speaker 6 So it's real, real fucking bad. I'm going to mention a couple of other things that are in it.
There's two points to this bill, right?

Speaker 6 One of the two points of it is to do is to again just like ethnically cleanse every non-white person from the U.S. The second point of this bill is to give corporations $4.5 trillion in tax cuts.

Speaker 6 It's mostly for rich people.

Speaker 6 That shit sucks. That's like the buy-in for like the business people is you get these tax cuts.

Speaker 6 They also want to end the tax credit for electric cars because their response to climate change is fuck you die. Now, again, as I mentioned, this only passed in the house by one vote last time.

Speaker 6 And that was actually a less extreme version of the, well, okay.

Speaker 6 There's some more on shit in it that we'll talk about in the other episode in the House version of it.

Speaker 6 But this only passed in the House by one vote, and it only passed by one vote because three Democrats died in office. Great system.

Speaker 6 it's great so things going great however comma it is possible to like that like it is possible to beat these people it is possible to get cut from this bill to to to end on a positive note on this uh we talked a bit last week

Speaker 24 maybe last week two weeks ago one recent executive disorder Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 We were talking, I think it's on two different ones now, about how we beat the fucking ban on using Medicaid for trans healthcare.

Speaker 6 And by we, I mean a combination of trans journalists like Maddie Castigan, Bira Levine, David Forbes, our like resident trans policy analyst Kerin Green.

Speaker 6 I did some work on it, not like a huge amount, but like, I don't know, I did a little bit. A lot of like local queer orgs did a bunch of really good work on this.

Speaker 6 And like, quite frankly, like the other people who killed this is every single one of you who like fucking called and emailed and harassed your senator. Like Ron Wyden.

Speaker 6 There was like, there was, there was, there was queer orgs like lobbying him directly. And then also his office got fucking flooded by shit from like you

Speaker 6 who went and like screamed at them until they stopped doing this. And because of that, we got this thing killed from the fucking bill.

Speaker 6 And the Republicans are so mad about it that like they could theoretically re-add to the House one.

Speaker 6 And there is a chance where they get so mad that they re-add this to the House bill and then that causes the House bill to fail in the Senate because if they re-add this into the House bill, then reconciliation fails and they have to go back to the Senate again.

Speaker 6 So, you know, it is possible to fucking beat these people.

Speaker 6 And it's also important to understand that this was not done by like the giant national, like gay ink, like huge non-profit like human rights commission bullshit council stuff they did a little bit of stuff on the trailing end this was accomplished almost entirely by a combination of non-white and working class trans journalists and organizers and just like a bunch of random

Speaker 28 people who were like eat

Speaker 6 you get this out

Speaker 6 and you know on a thing that would have killed unbelievable numbers of trans people we fought the republican party and we beat them so this can be done and this bill is not guaranteed to fucking pass.

Speaker 24 The bill can still be, it can still be killed.

Speaker 28 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Like it is, it is, it is devastating enough to like rural health care that even Republican senators are talking about not wanting to cut Medicaid.

Speaker 24 So it's a very unpopular bill. And when you tell

Speaker 24 regular Republicans about the details of the bill, they don't like it. They fucking hate it.

Speaker 24 They're being like the Republican media machine is being so selective in how they're talking about the bill. Because if you discuss the way that it just rips the heart out of Medicaid,

Speaker 24 that's not what most older Republicans want because they actually also rely on Medicaid. So it is a pretty unpopular bill.
And the more people learn about the bill, the more they dislike it.

Speaker 24 And you can see stats on this. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And the unhinged thing about this, right, is that even with limited information most Republicans have about this, it still has like a 20 to 30% approval rating. It's so unpopular.

Speaker 6 Even in the low information environment we're currently in, it has like a 20 to 30 percent approval rating.

Speaker 6 I think if everyone actually understood what was in the bill, I think its approval rating would fucking drop even further. Yeah, nobody wants this except except for like the overt genocide people.

Speaker 29 So, most people, if they're not personally harmed, will know someone who's being personally harmed.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 24 Do you know what is popular, James?

Speaker 6 Uh,

Speaker 24 I can guess the products and services that support this podcast.

Speaker 29 Beautiful.

Speaker 6 You know what else is extremely popular? It is my hit theme song about tariffs. Let's fucking go.

Speaker 6 Tyree don't like it.

Speaker 6 Rocking the caspa, rocking your caspa.

Speaker 24 Mia, what do we have for tariff talk this week?

Speaker 6 So this is an important week for tariffs. Next week will be the really, really critical one.
So next

Speaker 6 allegedly, we'll see.

Speaker 6 So next week, all of the tariffs on every other country in the world from the Liberation Day tariff tariffs are supposed to come off. We're going to see what happens.

Speaker 24 I've become It Could Happen Here's biggest tariff denier. I'm the tariff denier conspiracy theorist.

Speaker 6 Well, so here's the thing. Okay, so the Trump administration is claiming that they cut cut a deal with Vietnam.

Speaker 6 Again, as of time of recording on Wednesday, I haven't actually seen anything from like Vietnam confirming this. It's just Trump tweeted.
It's totally real. Who fucking knows?

Speaker 6 So the deal that he's saying is that Vietnam is going to levy, or the U.S.

Speaker 6 is going to levy a 20% tariff on all goods from Vietnam and a 40% tariff on goods that are produced elsewhere and move through Vietnam.

Speaker 6 Now, I know we're all used to like looking at like 130% tariffs, but I cannot emphasize enough that a 20% tariffs on good on goods from Vietnam is also just fucking ruinous.

Speaker 6 Most tariff coverage on Vietnam focuses on the fact that like companies like Nintendo, for example, deliberately moved production to Vietnam to avoid tariffs on China.

Speaker 6 Now, coverage is like this because all of these people fucking learned about Vietnam producing things like a week ago. They missed a decade of capital flight.

Speaker 6 along, I mean, it's a decade and a half, really, since 2011. A bunch of Chinese capital has been flowing into Vietnam, like down the Mekong Delta.

Speaker 6 So these tariffs are not just affecting the ability of China to evade the tariffs on it by like moving products to other countries, which has been a lot of what's been keeping the inflation from just fucking exploding, has been the ability of producers to route goods through places like Vietnam.

Speaker 6 This is also hitting one of the world's largest manufacturing hubs, right?

Speaker 6 And a developing manufacturing hub that has very good infrastructure, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, that capital from China had been moving to.

Speaker 6 This is still, even this 20% tariff on Vietnam is like catastrophic. Yeah.
So we'll see what happens next week if the rest of the turf tariffs kick in. I don't know what's going to happen.

Speaker 6 Who fucking knows? I've been leaning towards, I think they will.

Speaker 6 But yeah, even this stuff is really fucking bad and we're going to start seeing the impacts of it. But yeah, this has been tariff talk.

Speaker 24 There's enough skepticism in the market about the tariffs in general that so far,

Speaker 24 not all, but most corporations have been eating the tariffs in the short term.

Speaker 24 Not all. Like famously, like Walmart has been raising some prices.
But a bunch of corporations have been eating the costs because they do not think these will be largely effective long term.

Speaker 24 And I mean, this will slowly change, especially as

Speaker 24 more of these start being taken into effect on a rolling basis. We'll probably see corporations adjust to this and we'll see the market adjust to this.

Speaker 24 But I think that's part of why maybe people haven't been seeing the massive price hikes that were expected back, you know, like two months ago.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Well, and I think also, again the important thing here is what this is going to do to logistics firms which have very very low margins and right now they've been surviving by just running shit through other places but like again if the if this is if 20 is the rate on vietnam plus there's now a massive incentive not to run goods through vietnam

Speaker 6 that's really bad because that like kneecaps the evasion tools people have been using yeah so we'll we'll see what happens yeah wait for me and ma to come into play Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 24 Let's talk about alligator alcatraz.

Speaker 6 So fucking God.

Speaker 24 Florida's new immigration detention center has opened this Wednesday.

Speaker 24 It's built on a remote airport with aircraft hangars outfitted with cages and bunk beds to incarcerate between 3,000 to 5,000 people.

Speaker 24 The facility is surrounded by a moat of alligators and python snakes. They're calling it alligator alcatraz.
It was designed to be the most efficient deportation machine in the country.

Speaker 24 National Guard members will act as immigration judges on site to speed up deportation proceedings.

Speaker 6 I'm going to play a short clip here.

Speaker 24 Apologize for hearing DeSantis.

Speaker 44 I mean, this is going to be illegals will come in, they'll be processed, there'll be places for them to be housed. You'll have an ability for food.

Speaker 44 You'll have an ability for them to consult legal rights if they have that, because there is a process that's involved with this.

Speaker 24 So the Florida Attorney General has called this a quote one-stop shop for immigration enforcement. Come in, get your process and fly out, unquote.
Jesus. So immigrants will be flown here.

Speaker 24 They will have some degree of due process here, not really real due process, but enough to fast track their deportation, stay basically at this facility like less than a week and get deported from it.

Speaker 24 It has a working airport. They want to start running thousands of people through this facility basically every week.

Speaker 24 Trump toured the facility on Tuesday and he said, quote, Biden wanted me in here. Okay.
He wanted me.

Speaker 24 Didn't work out that way, but he wanted me in here, that son of a bitch, unquote, which is an insane thing to say.

Speaker 24 But it gives you an actual look into why the current Trump administration and like why Trump term 2.0 is kind of different from 1.0 because it's purely built on this like this like animosity.

Speaker 24 It's built on this idea that Trump thinks that the entire like entire world conspired against him to lock him up and somehow he beat them and now he's getting his revenge on the entire world, right?

Speaker 24 This is what's that that's how he's governing. It's because Biden wanted to send him to the alligator Alcatraz, but he was able to beat him.

Speaker 24 And now he's going to get revenge on everyone who's who's tried to stop him. And that's how he's running the country because that's the thing he's obsessed with.
He can't stop talking about Biden.

Speaker 24 He brings up Biden fucking every day

Speaker 24 because it's not about what Biden actually did. It's this, it's this like symbol of like everyone who has tried to like tried to beat me, everyone who has tried to like lock me up.

Speaker 24 Now, now I get to take my revenge out on them. They wanted to disappear me to this alligator concentration camp, which no, they didn't because this thing fucking didn't exist a week ago.

Speaker 24 Like this, this facility was built in the last eight days. Yeah.
It's going to cost $450 million annually to operate.

Speaker 24 I remember when I went to the the Charlie Kirk event in Atlanta, they're talking about how much money we're spending to give immigrants free cell phones and to give them housing.

Speaker 24 Meanwhile, you have not only this bill that massively, massively increases the deficit in ways we've never seen before.

Speaker 24 Plus, on the local level, you have $400 million a year for these deportation facilities. And this facility specifically built on the Florida Everglades, it's not hurricane-proof.
Of course.

Speaker 24 After one day of operating, they've already had flooding issues. This is an incredibly dangerous facility.
It could lead to a natural disaster could kill thousands of people here.

Speaker 24 And currently, the state of Florida is selling alligator Alcatraz merchandise on their website.

Speaker 29 It's always a grift as well.

Speaker 24 So you can get deportation merchandise. You can get concentration camp merchandise.

Speaker 24 This is the soul of the Republican Party.

Speaker 24 For our last main story tonight, let's talk about how Trump and the Democrats are trying to stop the zombum because ranked choice voting has now been completed.

Speaker 24 Zoran has defeated Cuomo 56 to 44, 12 points, which were tallied in just the third round of ranked choice voting.

Speaker 24 The other tallies will come out like eventually, but this is like the last like legitimate tally because of like the elimination rules.

Speaker 24 Zoron got 150,000 more votes than Eric Adams won with in 2021. Like phenomenal sweep.

Speaker 6 That's huge.

Speaker 24 It's wild. Like we've never seen anything like this.

Speaker 6 Hot coffee suburb, baby.

Speaker 6 Let's go.

Speaker 24 So, Republican Representative Andy Ogles of Tennessee sent a letter to Attorney General Pam Bondi asking to investigate Mamdani for denaturalization on the grounds that he obtained citizenship through misrepresentation or concealing material support for terrorism.

Speaker 24 I'm going to read this disgusting quote from Ogles because I think people should hear it.

Speaker 24 Quote, Zoron Little Mohammed Mamdani is an anti-Semitic socialist communist who will destroy the great city of New York.

Speaker 24 He needs to be deported, which is why I'm calling for him to be the subject to denaturalization proceedings.

Speaker 29 This is a guy who would be petrified if he ever had to walk around New York because seeing brown people is very scary when you're this kind of person.

Speaker 24 Zoran's been facing this huge wave of egregious, like, Islamophobic attacks, including from the

Speaker 24 members of his own party. Yep.
On a radio show, Democrat New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand falsely claimed that Momdani had made references in support of quote-unquote global jihad.

Speaker 24 Outrageous stuff.

Speaker 24 On Monday, she apologized for these comments in a private call to Mamdani and expressed that she believes that Zoran is sincere when he says he wants to protect all New Yorkers and combat anti-Semitism.

Speaker 24 But fucking, fucking gross stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 6 It was so hideous. It's like 2003 level.

Speaker 24 It's it's yeah, it's really bad.

Speaker 29 Wait, no, it's considerably worse than that. Like, like Bush gave the Islam is the Fabric of America speech in 2001.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 29 Like we now have Democrats just knee-jerking to fuck them all. They're terrorists.

Speaker 24 In their own party. And like many top New York Democrats have still refused to endorse the now like Democratic nominee.
Yeah.

Speaker 24 including Governor Kathy Hochell, House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, and Senator Chuck Schumer.

Speaker 29 Jeffries posted in support of him today, I believe.

Speaker 24 Some of them have expressed like support of him, specifically support against Islamophobic attacks, but have explicitly refused to endorse him as a nominee.

Speaker 24 Which is like, it's vote blue no matter who, until you have like a Muslim Democratic Socialist, and it's like, we have to discuss, like, you know, there's some, we, we have some skeptical things about his candidacy and his ability to keep New Yorkers safe.

Speaker 6 And you're like, oh, boy.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 29 Yeah. You voted for the three people who died.
You endorsed the three people who died in office, I guess, like since the last election in the House.

Speaker 6 Like

Speaker 24 now, the attacks have continued. On Monday, Fox News reporter Peter Docey asked White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt about deporting Zoran.
Let's play the clip.

Speaker 45 Peter.

Speaker 46 Thank you, Caroline. Does President Trump want Zoran Mondani deported?

Speaker 45 I haven't heard him say that. I haven't heard him call for that.
But certainly he does not want this individual to be elected.

Speaker 45 I was just speaking to him about it and his radical policies that will completely crush New York City, which is obviously a city that the president holds near and dear to his heart.

Speaker 46 There's this Congressman Danny Obles who wants the Attorney General Bondi to explore denaturalization proceedings because he thinks Momdani

Speaker 46 could have misrepresented or concealed material support for terrorism based on rap lyrics he wrote in 2017. Does President Trump think this is a worthwhile use of the Attorney General's time?

Speaker 45 Well, I'll let the President speak to that. I have not seen those claims, but surely if they are true, it's something that should be investigated.

Speaker 29 It's ridiculous to suggest that you could wrap your material support for terrorism, like that they have to prove that you materially supported a group which is listed as an FTO.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 24 Then on Tuesday, a day later, Trump himself attacked Zoran, threatening to arrest him if he interferes with ICE.

Speaker 48 Your beloved New York City may well be led by a communist soon, Zorhan Mandami, who in his nomination speech said he will defy ICE and will not allow ICE to arrest criminal aliens in New York City.

Speaker 48 Your message to communist Zorhan Mandami.

Speaker 49 Well, then we'll have to arrest him. Look, we don't need a communist in this country, but if we have one, I'm going to be watching over him very carefully on behalf of the nation.

Speaker 24 Later, Trump suggested that Zoran, quote-unquote, may be here illegally.

Speaker 24 And that the Trump administration would be looking into that while

Speaker 24 in the same clip praising the now independent nominee and current mayor, Eric Adams.

Speaker 49 Independent running, Mayor Adams, who's a very good person. I helped him out a little bit.
He had a problem, and he was unfairly hurt over this question.

Speaker 49 He made a statement to the effect that this is terrible. New York City can't have all these immigrants come in.
And he was indicted the following day.

Speaker 6 Just openly admitting to corruption and collision. He had a little problem, and I helped him out.
Yeah.

Speaker 29 Yeah.

Speaker 29 Just a little problem with accepting massive payments from Turkey to fucking corrupt his whole city.

Speaker 6 And I want to say here, too, like I was watching just like Trump openly targeting Bomb Dani, like all of the Democrats who are attacking him are just on the side of Trump here.

Speaker 6 And this has been a significant problem the entire administration is that one of Trump's like core bases of support is like sitting Democratic fucking legislatures. It's like fucking Chuck Schumer.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Like all of these people.
Yeah.

Speaker 24 They're working with Trump rhetorically on all of this.

Speaker 6 And sometimes literally with like Schumer voting for the original like budget resolution shit. Like

Speaker 6 they're just they're just actively collaborating.

Speaker 24 On Tuesday, Zoran released a statement regarding Trump's comments saying, quote, the president of the United States just threatened to have me arrested, stripped of my citizenship, and put in a detention camp and deported.

Speaker 24 Not because I have broken any law, but because I will refuse to let ICE terrorize our city.

Speaker 24 His statements don't just represent an attack on our democracy, but an attempt to send a message to every New Yorker who refuses to hide in the shadows. If you speak up, they will come for you.

Speaker 24 We will not accept this intimidation.

Speaker 24 That Trump included praise for Eric Adams and his authoritarian threats is unsurprising, but highlights the urgency of bringing an end to this mayor's time in City Hall.

Speaker 24 At the very moment, when mega Republicans are attempting to destroy the social safety net, kick millions of New Yorkers off health care, and enrich their billionaire donors at the expense of working families.

Speaker 24 It is a scandal that Eric Adams echoes this president's division, distraction, and hate. Voters will resoundingly reject it in November.

Speaker 6 Unquote.

Speaker 24 And former Mayor Bill de Blasio came out in support of Zoran, saying, quote, Donald Trump will have to go through a lot of us first if he wants to arrest Zoran Mamdani.

Speaker 24 We New Yorkers will put a human shield around him if we need to. No one gets to intimidate us.

Speaker 6 Bill de Blasio, if you get arrested doing the human shield,

Speaker 6 we will forgive you for one of your many crimes.

Speaker 6 What?

Speaker 6 Yeah. What a crime off for arrest.
Good for Bill. Good for Bill.

Speaker 28 But no, everyone needs to do this.

Speaker 24 Like, everyone needs to get behind him right now. If he's going to be be the target of this, like, denaturalization push.

Speaker 6 No, fuck this.

Speaker 24 Yeah. If he becomes like the symbol of everything that Trump hates, like, Democrats need to fall in line fucking right now.
And you can't be attacking this guy for like innate Islamophobia. Yeah.

Speaker 24 It's, it's, it's outrageous.

Speaker 29 Yeah, he also has made one of the funniest music videos I have ever seen.

Speaker 24 There's some good stuff.

Speaker 29 His video about how much he loves his grandmother with Mada Joffrey in it is outstanding.

Speaker 24 Now, we do have some good news to close this episode on, including the return of of the Stinky Musk segment. In Pennsylvania, a Tesla turned into train tracks and

Speaker 24 drove into an oncoming train.

Speaker 24 It's okay. People were able to exit the car before the crash, but great stuff.
Great stuff in the self-driving car department. Oh, God.

Speaker 24 And Trump truthed on Monday, quote, Elon might get more subsidy than any human being in history by far.

Speaker 24 And without subsidies, Elon would probably have to close up shop and head back home to South Africa.

Speaker 24 No more rocket launches, satellites, or electric car production, and our country would save a fortune. Perhaps we should have Doge take a good hard look at this.
Big money to be saved.

Speaker 24 And then on July 1st, on his way to Alligator Alcatraz, Trump was questioned again about Elon and said, quote, we'll have to take a look. We might have to put Doge on Elon.
You know what that Doge is?

Speaker 24 That monster that might have to go back and eat Elon. Wouldn't that be terrible? He gets a lot of subsidies.

Speaker 24 Elon responded to this on X the Everything app.

Speaker 24 Quote, so tempting to escalate this. So, so tempting.
But I will refrain for now.

Speaker 6 I will say, Musk has also been talking about forming a new party if this budget bill passes.

Speaker 24 God, I hope so. It would be the funniest thing.
Oh, it would be so good. What other good news do we have to end on here?

Speaker 29 I think the other good news was the

Speaker 29 asylum ban getting stopped in the courts.

Speaker 24 Oh, we already did that good news.

Speaker 29 Yeah, we already did that.

Speaker 24 Oh, that's it then. Yeah.

Speaker 6 All right. Well,

Speaker 24 people like ED being an hour long.

Speaker 6 I've been told

Speaker 24 the longer, the better.

Speaker 29 That's one thing they say about ED.

Speaker 24 It goes without saying, James.

Speaker 24 We reported the news.

Speaker 42 We reported the news.

Speaker 6 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

Speaker 50 It Could Happen Here is a production of CoolZone Media.

Speaker 50 For more podcasts from CoolZone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 50 You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

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