Part Three: Lee Atwater: The Political Dirty Tricks Artist Who Gave us President(s) George Bush

Speaker 1 Cool zone media.

Speaker 3 I still have a Japanese Kit Kat in my mouth. All right.

Speaker 1 All right, let's just start the episode with that. Welcome to Behind the Bastards, the podcast where Garrison is the bastard by secretly revealing to us their Japanese Kit Kat habit.

Speaker 3 The matcha Kit Kats are so good.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it is a $20,000 a month habit. It's destroying their life and finances.

Speaker 1 But this is Behind the Bastards, a show where we don't judge unless you're one of the worst people in all of history, which Garrison is is not yet. Garrison, welcome back to the show.

Speaker 1 The tariffs are really, really hurting this. The Japanese Kit Kat addict.

Speaker 3 My monthly budget has skyrocketed.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Someone who knows something about math, please tell Garrison how to make ends meet with their $20,000 a month Kit Kat habit.

Speaker 5 That's how I feel about my obsession with Korean sunscreen. I'm like, god damn it.

Speaker 1 Oh, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no, totally.

Speaker 3 You do kind of look like every white woman in the Korean sunscreen shop.

Speaker 3 Jesus Christ.

Speaker 5 It's frankly a better product.

Speaker 1 This is part three of our episodes on Lee Atwater.

Speaker 1 A bastard

Speaker 1 wouldn't have been happy for us to lead into him this way. But yes, let's plug some things up.

Speaker 5 I just wanted to plug front of the pod, Sean Malin's book, The Podcast Pantheon. 101 podcasts that change how we listen.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 1 we're in it.

Speaker 5 We're featured in it. Oh, Robert, look what my bookmark is.
Can you tell?

Speaker 1 Is it us?

Speaker 5 No, it's the pamphlet to the knife you got me after I had surgery.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay. There you go.

Speaker 5 This is probably a really interesting read. But yeah,

Speaker 1 we're featured in the book.

Speaker 5 And it's available for pre-order now and is out on September 16th. Wherever you get books, I'm assuming.
Anyways.

Speaker 1 Presumably wherever you get books.

Speaker 5 He wrote nice things about us, which I appreciate.

Speaker 1 And again, it is not in our wheelhouse because we don't write nice things. I just write bad things things about bad people.
I kind of

Speaker 1 just want to read Lee Atwater.

Speaker 5 I just kind of want to read what's in this.

Speaker 1 No, no. It's really cool.
We're reading about Lee Atwater. We're not reading about our podcast.
No, not our podcast.

Speaker 5 I want to read the pamphlet for the knife.

Speaker 1 Your bookmark, which was the knife?

Speaker 3 The bowie knife pamphlet. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yes, it's the New Zealand Bowie knife. Yes.

Speaker 4 And that's a good pamphlet.

Speaker 1 Old Vaughan was a terror with the bowie knife.

Speaker 2 That's how it starts.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Anyone who fought with a bowie knife was a terror with it because that's a scary weapon.

Speaker 1 Like anyone whose choice in an era with like guns and swords is something that's shorter range than either is a frightening person. This is a good read.
I'm not going to lie.

Speaker 1 It's a good read. Go buy yourself a bowie knife, people.

Speaker 3 Certified behind the bastards moment here. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 I'm a big fan of the knife that is slightly too large for basically any useful purpose.

Speaker 1 I use it for cutting down trees.

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Speaker 6 Season three of Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is here.

Speaker 6 Hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso are going deeper than ever with bold new conversations, fresh guests, and unfiltered takes on queer queer sex and cruising.

Speaker 6 This season, they're also looking out for the community, covering smart cruising in a chaotic world, including information on prep.

Speaker 6 And yes, their call-in segment is getting even hotter, and they'll react to your wildest cruising confessions on air. No pressure.

Speaker 6 Tune into Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences, with new episodes every Thursday on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1 In 1984, Lee Atwater has been brought back on the team, or has been brought back on the election team to help Reagan get re-elected, right? He's in the Reagan White House.

Speaker 1 He's kind of coasting off his laurels from the 1980 election for a while. In 84, he gets given his most prestigious position yet, which is assistant to the campaign manager, Ed Rowlands.

Speaker 1 Talking to PBS, Rowlands later claimed, A lot of people told me he wouldn't be loyal to me and told me not to pick him, Roland said. I admired his work ethic.
Now,

Speaker 1 whenever people tell you, don't pick this Republican strategist because he'll betray you, and you're like, but his work ethic's good, you're about to get betrayed.

Speaker 1 That's just how this story ends 100% of the time, and that's where it ends with Lee Atwater.

Speaker 1 Per that PBS piece, not long after, Roland says, Atwater arranged what turned out to be an ambush media interview in which Rolands was accused of running a dirty tricks campaign against the Democratic vice presidential candidate, Geraldine Ferraro.

Speaker 1 Lee had put a spear in my back, Roland says. It was just a two-year effort to destroy me.
He wanted to run Bush's presidential campaign. So he starts plotting this while they're working together.

Speaker 1 And it doesn't fully come out how badly he's fucked him until the election is over.

Speaker 1 But from the instant they start together, he is planning how am I going to stab this guy in the back so that by 1988, his corpse is clear of my path and I can get the job that he's got right now.

Speaker 1 What a cool guy. He's always thinking a step ahead from at least the other Republicans, Lee Atwater is.

Speaker 5 He's always like,

Speaker 5 How may I stab you? And where?

Speaker 3 Yeah. If only he had a bowie knife.

Speaker 1 If only someone had told Ed, this guy will definitely stab you in the back. Oh, Lee Atwater, the backstabber? He's probably going to stab your back.

Speaker 1 I don't think he's going to stab my back, not the backstabber. Then gets his back stabbed, you know? It's a tale as old as time.

Speaker 3 What's he going to do?

Speaker 1 Stab me? What's he going to do? Stab me?

Speaker 1 Man who just got stabbed by Lee Atwater. So Reagan wins re-election, obviously.
And Atwater, you don't get a lot from him during this period. So I'm going to guess

Speaker 1 he's not playing as formative a role as he is in 88, but it's easier to get a president re-elected, usually, historically, than it is to get them elected the first time. Things are weird now.

Speaker 1 So after 84, Atwater's like, I've spent my time working in like politics and working under elected leaders and working for the party directly. It's time for me to go into private practice, right?

Speaker 1 In part because it's time for me to make the money, and I want to set myself up so that in 88, I'm an independent political campaign figure, and I have a better chance of getting appointed by George H.W.

Speaker 1 Bush, who everyone knows is going to be the Republican candidate, pretty much, right?

Speaker 1 There's a little bit of fuckery that's going to have to happen to secure him the position, but people are pretty much sure.

Speaker 1 In particular, there's going to be some fuckery against Dole that Atwater's going, Bob Dole, if you remember Bob Dole, who could hurt?

Speaker 4 Which you probably don't if your knees don't hurt.

Speaker 3 He's the fruit cup guy, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, probably. I think he's the fruit cup guy.
He's the guy who the Simpsons parodied by just having him say his own name a lot.

Speaker 1 He didn't walk great because of his war injuries. He was an astronaut.

Speaker 1 Also

Speaker 1 a Democrat by political standards today, but pretty hard Republican by the standards of his time. He ran against Clinton, too.
He was pretty boring.

Speaker 1 You watch that Simpsons Halloween episode and you get most of what you need to know about Bob Dole. And Bill Clinton, to be honest.

Speaker 1 So he starts a political consulting firm for all of the lower-level candidates who had hired him periodically to conduct push-polls or whatever.

Speaker 1 And that's what he's doing when he starts his independent firm. What's it called? Well,

Speaker 1 his first, I think it's like campaign consultants or something like that, but after the 84 election, he merges with a larger consulting firm. So he's not independent for long.

Speaker 1 And the firm that he merges with, you might have heard of, we've talked about Thole on the show. Guess who guess who?

Speaker 1 You kind of guessed in the first episode, actually, Gary.

Speaker 3 Roger Stone's firm.

Speaker 1 It's Black Manafort and Stone. That's right.
Okay. Yes, yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's who partners with Lee Atwaters because they need, I think they need more of a domestic angle because they're more focused on foreign dictators at this point, right? Took us to.

Speaker 4 And Atwaters.

Speaker 5 To part three to get to Roger Stone, though.

Speaker 3 Also, there's an expanding area to operate in for non-foreign dictators.

Speaker 1 Right, right. Yeah, there's a chance that you could make a non-foreign dictator if you get good enough at getting people elected domestically.
And that's called Roger Stone's

Speaker 1 in Manafort, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And Lee Atwater probably would have if he'd survived long enough. Now, Roger Stone would later say of his friend and business partner, we both knew he believed in nothing.

Speaker 1 Above all, he was incredibly competitive. But I had the feeling that he sold his soul to the devil and the devil took it.

Speaker 1 Roger Stone, everybody. Roger Stone.
If you want a guy who, as your friend, is going to speak well of you when you're dead, Roger Stone is not that man.

Speaker 1 Not the kind of fella he is.

Speaker 1 So Lee's tactics fit in with Manafort, Black, and Stone, but his interests diverged from his partners because, again, they're more interested in becoming the go-to PR agency and campaign experts for dictators and want to be dictators all over the world.

Speaker 1 And Atwater is pretty resolutely interested in the U.S. and U.S.
elections. One of his former colleagues, Atwater's former colleagues, told The Washington Post, Charlie Black wants to be rich.

Speaker 1 Roger Stone wants to be rich. Lee Atwater doesn't want to be rich.
He wants to be master of the game. And there's a picture.
You can see that's, I believe that's Manafort.

Speaker 1 That's Roger Stone in the middle. And then that's Lee Atwater on the right side of your screen in this photo

Speaker 1 from their days working together.

Speaker 3 And James Jamaniak is still

Speaker 1 playing. It's still in play.

Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 Now, who are you going to get to play young Roger Stone? Because honestly, he looks like Niles from Frasier, but Niles from Frasier can't play that role anymore.

Speaker 5 What's his name? Eddie Redemane? Is that his name?

Speaker 1 Eddie Redmain? Yeah, he might be a little bit more. Yeah,

Speaker 3 he is similarly off-footing.

Speaker 1 Now, where do you get a man with a thumb-shaped head who can play Paul Manafort? That's really going to be the key, is a thumb enough-shaped celebrity. I think Atwa fortune.

Speaker 3 That could be a star maker.

Speaker 5 Like I said in part one, Atwater could be played by Topher Grace.

Speaker 1 Atwater could be played by Topher Grace, but I think Topher Grace is older now than Atwater ever lived to be. Spoiler.

Speaker 5 Manafort. You know what? Come back to me.

Speaker 1 Manafort's going to be tough. Manafort.
I went to high school with a couple of guys who look like Paul Manafort, but they all went and got Paul Manafort jobs.

Speaker 1 So I don't think you're going to get him in controversial.

Speaker 3 This could be controversial. Maybe you tap someone like Shane Gillis.
It's not hard.

Speaker 3 Shane Gillis type to play a Paul Manafort.

Speaker 1 So Lee Atwater has started working with Roger Stone and Paul Manafort and the like.

Speaker 1 And while he's doing this, you know, while after, right after, shortly after he's, he's gotten, I guess, acquired or partnered with them, in April of 1985, George H.W. Bush invites his sons and

Speaker 1 some of his close relatives to Camp David to prepare them for his 1988 presidential run. Basically, number one, he's getting ahead of things.
He wants them to meet the probable team.

Speaker 1 I don't think he's locked down all of his team positions, but he knows more or less the people he wants working with him,

Speaker 1 even if he's not sure what job they're going to get.

Speaker 1 And so he wants his family, who have been always been a big part of his political campaigns, to meet the people who are going to be running his 88 campaign.

Speaker 1 And one of the people he assembles and has come to Camp David for this 1985 meeting is 34-year-old Lee Atwater.

Speaker 3 Who's already proven to be a seasoned partier.

Speaker 1 Yes, a solid party. And you have to, you have to, you really, especially given how close he and W become, what kind of shit did you guys get up to at Camp David together?

Speaker 1 Like, what were you, I know, I think this is part during Bush's sober period, kind of, but I don't know. I feel like Bush and Lee Atwater probably did coke together.

Speaker 4 That's my Lee Atwater head cannon.

Speaker 1 So Lee's double cross of Rollins had worked, though, right?

Speaker 1 Because a year earlier, Rollins had been a shoe-in for the job, and Bush actually hadn't trusted Atwater at first, which is, again, usually a good instinct.

Speaker 1 And his sons particularly disliked Lee, right? Jeb has gone on to say that, like, initially, we saw him as more self-interested and interested in burning his own reputation than in helping our dad.

Speaker 1 And we were worried that like

Speaker 1 only for a little while.

Speaker 1 Because their worry was that like, well, these dirty tricks of his, maybe they'll work, but they'll ruin our father's reputation, his spotless moral record as former director of the CIA.

Speaker 1 The Bush family reputation. Yes.

Speaker 1 Spotless.

Speaker 8 Wow.

Speaker 1 Eric Alterman describes how Lee Atwater gained the Bush family's trust. And this is, you know, Gary, I know you've been looking to do this yourself.

Speaker 1 So you might be wanting to take some notes on this point.

Speaker 1 To prove his loyalty and increase his leverage with the family, he invited, demanded actually, that George Jr. join him full-time in the campaign.
It was a twofer, he recalls.

Speaker 1 Not only would it end their questions of loyalty, but Atwater got the services of a staff member who could organize the family at a moment's notice.

Speaker 1 He turned out to be the most political and the most loyal to my father, Jeb Bush now says. Atwater could go to hell tomorrow and I'd be a supporter.
He has proved himself with our family. Jeb!

Speaker 1 Exclamation. And W will say basically that, like, this is a of where he starts learning politics

Speaker 1 from this period when Atwater takes him under his wing. He's working directly for Lee, helping to get H.W.
Bush elected. Like, this is a lot of W's introduction to politics.

Speaker 1 And again, Atwater has already gotten Karl Rove started in his career. He's going to be Bush's campaign manager.

Speaker 1 So even though he's not going to live to see the Bush era, he's often given credit as an architect of the Bush era. And he really does deserve that.

Speaker 3 Do you think? I wonder how much of that influences also like Bush's decision to go Phil Cheney?

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I need an evil mastermind at my side. Exactly.

Speaker 5 My question is, do you think if Lee survived longer, that Jeb exclamation point would have, would have, you know?

Speaker 1 No, no, because

Speaker 3 at that point, Lee would never, I think, hook his horse onto someone that much of a loser when you have like a clear, like con man and winner

Speaker 1 in the game.

Speaker 3 Like, why?

Speaker 1 There's two, and, you you know we'll talk about this at the end there's two possibilities for how lee atwater would have handled the rise of trump one would have been i think he would have gone hard never trumper if for nothing else than like well i'm kind of old and tired now and there's money in doing this and maybe i don't really care as like i know i know i can't win but i know i can grift off this and that's good enough or i think if he had stayed in like politic shape as he was kind of at the peak of his career i think he would have seen trump coming and gotten in bed with him but it's it's one of those two things and we'll we'll talk at the end again about what we think is likelier for old Lee Atwater had he lived to see this.

Speaker 1 But he takes W under his wing and trains him up. And it's during this 1988 election that Lee would reach the peak of his career, possibly the peak of the damage he'd cause to society.

Speaker 1 But before I get to this, we need to pull back again and talk about how the justice system in this country used to work, right?

Speaker 1 Because this is integral to how Lee does what he does and the damage that he causes doing it.

Speaker 3 Oh boy, really, really excited for this.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we don't talk about this a lot, but by 1988, all 50 states had furlough programs for inmates, which allowed people who were incarcerated and still serving time to earn passes to leave prison for differing like periods, right?

Speaker 1 At the most basic level, maybe like you've got a funeral or a wedding and you can get like an afternoon pass to attend it.

Speaker 1 But some people got passes that were kind of similar to work release programs. Some people got to spend weeks at a time out with their families and they'd go back in for a while.

Speaker 1 It was often seen as like a transition thing with like, okay, this person has sort of proved themselves inside.

Speaker 1 Let's see if they can handle limited amounts of time free before we start talking about like a commutation or about parole, you know, depending on the kind of conviction that they've got, right?

Speaker 1 And about 10% of all prisoners in the U.S. received some sort of furlough in 1987.

Speaker 1 Per an article for the Marshall Project by Beth Schwarzopfel and Bill Keller, nationally, murderers served an average of eight years before they were paroled or commuted.

Speaker 1 So furloughs were, in the toolkit of a previous generation, an uncontroversial proposition.

Speaker 1 They offered incentives for good behavior behind bars and a good way for inmates to reacclimate to the life they would almost certainly return to outside of prison.

Speaker 1 Use of furloughs for prisoners in the U.S. is widespread, successful, and relatively problem-free, the editor of a magazine for corrections professionals told the New York Times in 1988.

Speaker 1 So again, I have to really emphasize this is not at all a political thing. In fact, under Governor Ronald Reagan, California had one of the most generous furlough programs in the country.

Speaker 1 As stated, the program was really helpful to many inmates, but given the sheer number of people involved, there were always always cases of it going wrong.

Speaker 1 And while Reagan was governor, two prisoners were furloughed by his justice system and went on to commit murder. This happened two separate times.

Speaker 1 And there were criticisms of the program and of Reagan for allowing it during this period of time.

Speaker 1 And after the first murder, he responded to these criticisms by saying, More than 20,000 people had these passes, and this is the only murder.

Speaker 1 Ending with, obviously, you can't be perfect, which is a kind of reasonable, you just cannot have conversations like this about the justice system today.

Speaker 3 No, this is like so

Speaker 3 having something like this now would be like outrageously progressive.

Speaker 1 Like, yeah, like, look, two out of 20,000 ain't bad, you know? Like, that's just life.

Speaker 3 Like, the current like crime crackdown that is like sweeping the nation with National Guard deployments everywhere.

Speaker 1 It's like all crime's at an all-time low, yeah.

Speaker 3 It's so opposite towards this logic. And having like a Republican Party

Speaker 3 use this logic to justify a furlough program is so alien to the current understanding of politics.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, and that's like, that's partly what's so depressing about it is that like

Speaker 1 you could say, obviously, you can't be perfect, and that's the end of it, at least as a Republican.

Speaker 1 But then the Republicans, when it happens to a Democrat, are going because of Lee Atwater to leap on this sort of thing as a way to destroy a presidential candidate, right?

Speaker 1 So you jump forward to 1988. Bush's opponent is Michael Dukakis, governor of Massachusetts.

Speaker 1 Two years before the election, a guy named Willie Horton, imprisoned in Massachusetts for his part in a 1974 robbery murder, gets out on furlough.

Speaker 1 And to be clear, we don't know if Willie killed anybody. He was one of three robbers.

Speaker 1 He would claim that he stayed in the car and that his friends had no idea, that he had no idea his friends planned to kill a guy. One of his friends would say, no, no, it was Willie who went in.

Speaker 1 I think his friend was like, I stayed in the car. But these people are all dealing with, we have no idea what actually happened.

Speaker 1 And it doesn't matter to an extent because all three of them were part of the crime. And that's the way this sort of thing gets charged, right?

Speaker 1 If you're part of a robbery where someone gets shot, you can get charged with that murder, even if you don't pull the trigger, right? That's just the way the legal system works and worked then.

Speaker 1 In June of 1986, Willie gets out on furlough, but he gets in trouble. I think he gets basically the police come after him and he decides to flee the state rather than get caught and go back to prison.

Speaker 1 He spends some time in Florida. Eventually he moves up to Baltimore.
And in April of 1987, someone breaks into a suburban home in Maryland, owned by the sales manager for a car dealership.

Speaker 1 The intruder, I think, stabs and ties the husband up and repeatedly rapes his wife, Angela Miller, at gunpoint.

Speaker 1 Neither victim got a good look at the assailant's face, but the victim stole the homeowner's Camaro. And not long after this, the police find that Camaro with Willie Horton behind the wheel.

Speaker 1 While he's being arrested, he waves a gun at the police and they start shooting. And long story short, he gets arrested after being shot, I think, a couple of times.

Speaker 1 So Horton gets charged for the home invasion and the rape. And when the news finds out that he is a, like the local news, finds out that he's a furloughed murderer from California, they flip out.

Speaker 1 And initially, it's just a local paper, the Lawrence Eagle Tribune, who wins a Pulitzer for their coverage of this. They are pretty relentless on covering the story.

Speaker 1 But it proves to have legs beyond the local area.

Speaker 1 And the first person to use it politically is actually Al Gore, because during the primary process, Gore has to debate Dukakis for the Democratic primary election.

Speaker 1 And Gore asks, if elected president, would you put the same program in place federally? Which is itself kind of a stupid question because there were federal furloughs at this point in time, right?

Speaker 1 It wasn't the same program that existed.

Speaker 1 But like, yeah, anyway, Gore is the first person to use this story for his benefit, but he doesn't name Horton, right? He talks about the story in broad details. He doesn't name the guy.

Speaker 1 He doesn't put his picture out there.

Speaker 1 But Lee Atwater, he's paying attention to this debate. He knows it doesn't, you know, give Gore the win, but he also, I I think, kind of sees where Gore didn't have the killer instinct, right?

Speaker 1 Ran up short, wasn't quite willing to go through with this to the extent that Lee is going to be willing to. And Lee sees this and he's like, that's it.
That's how we win this fucking election, right?

Speaker 1 And he insists in campaign meetings that they have to pivot to make this the central message of the campaign.

Speaker 1 He tells his colleagues, by the time we're finished, they're going to wonder whether Willie Horton is Dukakis' running mate, right?

Speaker 1 They being the voters. He told a Baltimore reporter, the Horton case is one of those gut issues that are values issues, particularly in the South.

Speaker 1 And if we hammer at these over and over, we are going to win. So all of this culminates in one of the most famous political ads in the history of this country, the Willie Horton ad.

Speaker 1 And we're going to play that, but first, let's have some ads.

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Speaker 1 And we're back. So the Willie Horton ad is to this day one of the most famous and probably one of the most successful political ads ever run.

Speaker 1 I'm just going to play it. If you can watch it in the YouTube or just go watch it separately, you could Google the Willie Horton ad or type that into YouTube.

Speaker 1 You'll find it, but I'm assuming that you'll get most of it.

Speaker 1 We'll describe what's going on, but you're going to see a lot of a very scary picture of Willie Horton right after he got arrested with a couple of gunshot injuries.

Speaker 1 A picture that Willie Horton today is like, yeah, it's a scary-ass picture of me.

Speaker 11 Bush and Dukakis on crime. Bush supports the death penalty for first-degree murderers.
Dukakis not only opposes the death penalty, he allowed first-degree murderers to have weekend passes from prison.

Speaker 11 One was Willie Horton, who murdered a boy in a robbery, stabbing him 19 times. Despite a life sentence, Horton received 10 weekend passes from prison.

Speaker 11 Horton fled, kidnapped a young couple, stabbing the man, and repeatedly raping his girlfriend. Weekend prison passes.
Dukakis on crime.

Speaker 1 And the scary photo is the second one they show of him where he's being like led in by a cop who he's easily looks, I think because of forced perspective, like two feet taller than he's just been shot.

Speaker 1 And he, yeah, he like he looks like a guy who walked away from multiple gunshot wounds, you know? Like, it's this,

Speaker 1 I'm going to like inundate the airwaves with this ad, these pictures of a guy during like the worst point in his life, and also these pictures of a guy who I can kind of, it's this southern strategy thing, right?

Speaker 1 Where I can throw all of our audience's fears of crime and their fears of black people and mix them together. And like Dukakis is voting to let specifically black murderers out.

Speaker 1 Well, they will specifically target white women, right? That's the message of the ad.

Speaker 3 This is the same like logic used in the last election, but with immigrants.

Speaker 3 Like you look at the way that they talked about like the Lake and Riley Act and showed mugshots of alleged Venezuelan gang members during these big press conferences.

Speaker 3 And yeah, it's attacking the same fears, like the Biden administration or whatever is releasing these

Speaker 3 violent immigrants into our country. Yep.

Speaker 1 Yep. And that's, you know, the Willie Horton ad gets a huge amount of credit.

Speaker 1 And this is a thing where this election had looked a lot different in the summer of 1988, which is right before the conventions, which used to matter more. The fact that you were locking in

Speaker 1 people during that used to matter more. But by the summer of 88, Dukakis is ahead by more than 17 points.
And Bush's people are kind of braced for a disaster.

Speaker 1 And the future president's chief of staff, Mary Madeline,

Speaker 1 recalls: quote, Lee held us together with pep talks, history lessons, and weird statistics.

Speaker 1 And a lot of those statistics had to do with how he thought white people were going to react to this story, this Willie Horton story, right?

Speaker 1 And this does help turn things around. Now, it's not his only dirty trick in the Dukakis campaign.
He is fucking so cruel to Dukakis.

Speaker 1 He starts a rumor that Dukakis had, like, because it had worked for him well in the past, basically been close to being institutionalized for depression over the fact that like Dukakis, like the Washington Times published an article that Atwater laundered that he had received treatment for depression at one point.

Speaker 1 And this was a fairly minor thing, but again, Atwater has it blown up. He makes sure this article gets a lot of play.

Speaker 1 And it extends to the point where like a reporter asks Reagan, and again, there's, you know, did Dukakis plant the question with the reporter? Did he just plant the article?

Speaker 1 But this reporter asks Reagan, should Dukakis release his medical records?

Speaker 1 You know, and the President Reagan says, look, I'm not going to pick on an invalid, which is almost the same response Atwater had given about like the electroshock treatment.

Speaker 1 Like he's doing the same thing again, right? Like you see how it's, it's not a limitless playbook, although playing the hits also works, right?

Speaker 1 And yeah, like journalists are asking Dukakis, are you going to, like, have you seen a psychiatrist?

Speaker 1 And like, if he'd admitted that he had, like, that's, that also would have been seen by a sizable number of people as like disqualifying, right? We can't have a president who's ever gone to therapy.

Speaker 1 Um, I think we've seen where that takes us as a culture.

Speaker 1 Um, and yeah, this is like there's a lot of negative statements about Dukakis's wife, too, as a result of, I think, like some of her mental health treatment and whatnot.

Speaker 1 And he kind of goes after Kitty Dukakis as well.

Speaker 8 Um,

Speaker 1 and yeah, it's, it's like there's, there's a lot of grossness around this election. And a significant chunk of it is centered around Atwater.

Speaker 1 Like his whole attitude is, I'm not going to like, I'm not going to pull any punches.

Speaker 1 And I will, in fact, invent some punches if that's what it takes to like kick a guy when he's down as much as it's possible. Right.

Speaker 1 And yeah, I mean, the end of the story is Bush wins. Like Bush beats Dukakis.
Now, there's also Dukakis rides around in a tank and doesn't look great in the tank. There's a very silly video.

Speaker 1 Like the helmet looks a little too big on his head. But that's paired.

Speaker 1 What the reason people saw it is it's paired by an ad that Atwater helps to orchestrate where people are talking about all that Dukakis had done to trim defense budget and to like stop spending and basically to disarm America during the height of our conflict with the

Speaker 1 USSR. And Dukakis was a governor.
Like he wasn't voting to like it was all lies.

Speaker 3 And Dukakis has nothing to do with it. No one even checked it.

Speaker 1 It's just lies. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But again, the truth doesn't matter, right? What matters is you get this, you get this shit in people's ears and that does all of the damage you need it to do, right?

Speaker 1 And that's, that's what Lee Atwater knows.

Speaker 1 And that's kind of his, his, his major contribution to Republican politics and specifically to Republican electoral victories is he is the guy, like he gets credited with getting Bush Sr. elected.

Speaker 1 And because of when he dies, he'll sometimes his death will be blamed on Bush Sr. failing to get reelected.

Speaker 1 Bush Sr. denies this, but I don't know if he's the best source on things that got him elected and didn't get him elected, given his record.

Speaker 1 So this is like the peak of his life and the peak of his success, right?

Speaker 1 Things turn around rapidly for him after this. Obviously, the Willie Horton ad in particular gives Atwater a reputation for being a racist.

Speaker 1 And this is one of the few things that really seems to bug him, right?

Speaker 1 Because he would always bring up the fact that he visited James Brown in prison, the fact that he played with a number of, he cuts an album. One of the people he cuts an album with is Isaac Hayes.

Speaker 1 Like, he cuts this like RB blues album and whatnot. That's like, yeah, has Isaac Hayes on a couple of tracks, and there's a very funny review of it.
Um, one sec, let me pull it up.

Speaker 1 I should have had this.

Speaker 3 Um, oh, I'm excited. I'm excited to hear this.

Speaker 1 We can try to get a track together for the end here, but yeah, so he production, the album was recorded in 1989. Uh,

Speaker 1 get one guess guess as to the title, Garrison.

Speaker 3 Oh my God.

Speaker 1 Because Lee Atwater cuts this. His goal was to bring a wider audience the sounds of the 1960s, right?

Speaker 1 So he gets some all-time great rhythm and blue singers. There's Isaac Hayes, Chuck Jackson, B.B.
King, the Memphis Horns, Sam Moore, Arletta Nightingale.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like some heavy hitters on there. And then Lee Atwater featured first.

Speaker 1 The critical reception was not entirely bad.

Speaker 1 The Los Angeles Times called Atwater not any better than a singer in an average bar band, but he is more convincing than other such pop celebrity figures such as the Blues Brothers or Bruce Willis, which I think is an insult to the Blues Brothers.

Speaker 1 Let's stop right there, but fair enough when we're talking about Bruce Willis and his period of time in music.

Speaker 3 Look, he's no William Shatner, okay?

Speaker 1 He does not have Shatner's instincts. No.
USA Today wrote: Even able assists from B.B. King and Isaac Hayes can't mask the utter amateurism of Atwater's soulless chirping.

Speaker 3 That's a little devastating.

Speaker 1 That's a little mean.

Speaker 1 That's a little cruel. And it's going to come out at a time that's extra painful for him.

Speaker 1 Anyway, he, again, as a result of his friendship with a lot of these guys, he's really going to get heated whenever journalists will suggest maybe there was something racist about that racist ad.

Speaker 1 And his ultimate argument...

Speaker 1 was not even that like it wasn't racist it was that i didn't have anything to do with it it was produced by a third party a core an independent, like, or basically a PAC made it and they put it out there, right?

Speaker 1 So we're not to blame. We had nothing to do with it, right? And this was a lie.
Evidence has since come out tying Atwater and the Bush campaign to directing and funding the ad.

Speaker 1 And more recently, Roger Stone has come forward to admit that like, yeah, that was Lee. PBS summarizes his recollection of events.

Speaker 1 While he was running the Bush campaign, Atwater said that he had secretly arranged financing for the Horton ad.

Speaker 1 Atwater locked the office door, says Stone, and he popped the famous Willie Horton spot onto a television.

Speaker 1 He said, I got a couple boys who are going to put up a couple million dollars for this independent. And I said, That's a huge mistake.
And Stone always has an agenda.

Speaker 1 I think in this case, he didn't want to be associated with an ad this famously poisonous and racist. And so he really wanted to jam it onto Atwater's head.

Speaker 1 But there's independent people who will make the same claim that, like, yes, this was funded as this kind of shit often is, by the campaign. They just wanted plausible deniability, right?

Speaker 1 Everyone who's anyone knows it was Atwater. He gets the next big, like because of this, because of not just the Willie Horton ad, but his altogether successful role helping to get Bush Sr.

Speaker 1 elected, he gets appointed head of the RNC immediately after the 88 election. That's his next job.
Yes. Like he

Speaker 3 was, he was cutting that album while

Speaker 1 the head of the RNC.

Speaker 4 Yes, Garrison.

Speaker 3 To the head of the RNC.

Speaker 1 He is the head of the RNC when he records with Isaac Hayes.

Speaker 1 So this this is the peak of Atwater's career. And while his only

Speaker 3 seems like everything he wants out of life in a way.

Speaker 1 He has, and life is just about done for him.

Speaker 1 And I should say here before we get further into his life, while his only lingering interest in the Willie Horton ad was separating himself from it, right, after it had done what he needed it to do for Bush's campaign, the repercussions for our criminal justice system continue on to this day.

Speaker 1 During the election, Governor Dukakis froze and then banned furloughs for people with life sentences. This was in 1988.
And the Marshall Project describes how chaotic this is at the time.

Speaker 1 Inmates and staff in Massachusetts prisons at the time describe how dozens of lifers who had moved over the course of years from maximum to medium to minimum, even to work release programs, were gathered up in the middle of the night and brought back to more secure facilities.

Speaker 1 They went out at midnight and scooped up all these lifers to get them back behind the walls in case any of them had any mind to take off, said Greg Diachenko, who had recently begun serving a life sentence in Massachusetts at that time.

Speaker 1 Some of these lifers were out there for many, many years, these first-degreers, hoping for commutation, getting furloughs and everything.

Speaker 1 Those guys kept their hopes up, even after all that, that the political climate would die out and they would eventually work their way out.

Speaker 1 We were told it would just be a short while, maybe a year or two, before the political climate changed and guys would get back out.

Speaker 1 But things never changed back, as we're all unfortunately aware.

Speaker 1 State after state, in the wake of the Willie Horton ad, began restricting parole and eliminating work releases, commutations, furloughs, and conjugal visits.

Speaker 1 This marked the start of the Republican Party's embrace of just build more prisons as the solution to every crime-related problem. But Democrats got on the action too.

Speaker 1 When stumping for his crime bill, Joe Biden described his objective as to lock Willie Horton up in jail. And Joe, Willie Horton was already locked up.
Like

Speaker 1 from then on, it was known that any attempt to make life easier for prisoners or provide chances for clemency, especially as a member of the, as an elected leader, as an executive, right?

Speaker 1 If you're a governor or something, if you show mercy on a prisoner, all it takes is one of the thousands of people you might provide clemency to to commit a crime, and that's your career, right?

Speaker 1 That could ruin your political career. The lesson they take, right?

Speaker 1 It's great.

Speaker 1 Now, would something like this have happened, like the Willie Horton Horton ad have happened later if it weren't for Lee Atwater? Probably.

Speaker 1 But it happened when it did and how it did because of him, right?

Speaker 3 Well, yeah, and it reflects the type of stuff that he's talking about after like the Nixon campaign, right? And

Speaker 3 like a continuation of the Southern strategy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, all of this is the Willie Horton ad is another way of just not saying the N-word in campaign ads when you really want to.

Speaker 1 So 1989, Lee's recording a real album. He's on top of the world.
He's running the RNC.

Speaker 1 Eric Alterman spent time with him in April to write that New York Times article that we've quoted from.

Speaker 1 And the article describes his dirty tricks in detail, but also lingers on how cool Atwater seems to this journalist. Here's how how it opens.
It's 2 a.m.

Speaker 1 on a sultry Saturday in Columbia, South Carolina. Does the Republican Party know where its chairman is?

Speaker 1 Harvey Lee Atwater, hometown boy, is on stage at Bullwinkles, a smoky dive with two pool tables, dollar beers, and the raunchy long-haired Mojo Blues band shaking the rafters.

Speaker 1 The overflow crowd is packed against the wall, forcing overdressed Republican gentry to slip to rub elbows with the Bullwinkle regulars.

Speaker 1 Atwater has changed out of his blue blazer and tie into a late-night t-shirt that David Letterman gave him.

Speaker 1 His guitar was a gift from Ron Wood of the Rolling Stones, a souvenir of Atwater's Gala Blue celebration at a presidential inaugural ball.

Speaker 1 Drinking beer straight from the pitcher, sweat pouring down his face, Atwater apologizes for going home so early. But the St.

Speaker 1 Patrick's Day parade is just seven hours away, and he is the Grand Marshal. His final number is a repeat of his opener, Eddie Taylor's Bad Boy.

Speaker 1 I'm bad, I'm bad, cries the man who masterminded George Bush's 1988 presidential campaign. I'm the worst you ever had.
It's the drinking straight from the pitcher for me. Amen.

Speaker 3 This ain't your grandpa's Republican Party.

Speaker 1 This ain't your grandpa's Republican Party. They're cool now.

Speaker 1 That's every...

Speaker 3 They want to be cool so bad.

Speaker 1 It's so funny. It's so funny.
It's the only, literally the only thing denied to them.

Speaker 3 It's such this like psychosexual drive for conservatives to be the real rebels for them to be like the actual cool kids.

Speaker 1 And they will move mountains. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And it's because to try to achieve this cool kid status.

Speaker 1 The ones who are smart and influential are together together enough to like have interests outside of politics and to know vaguely that like what I'm doing is really uncool and fucked up.

Speaker 1 I wonder if I could just sort of punish everyone into pretending that's not true.

Speaker 1 And then they'd have to treat me like I'm a good musician and not write mean things about how Isaac Hayes' voice is better than mine.

Speaker 1 So even that, soon after the 88 election, Lee's tactics were being adopted by campaign managers across the political spectrum.

Speaker 1 Patricia Schroeder, a Democratic congresswoman, told The Times, the real problem with Lee Atwater is that his tactics are contagious.

Speaker 1 And in his article, Alterman adds, indeed, the question Democrats around the country are asking themselves is, can you beat Lee Atwater unless you join him?

Speaker 1 And, you know, the answer is no, but also they never quite figure it out, do they? They're always bad at it.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 we're still here.

Speaker 1 We're still here. We're still here.
We're still getting dunked on by the guy. doing shots at bull winkles.

Speaker 3 Maybe we can just copy the Republican strategy over and over and over again.

Speaker 1 Yeah, after they've already done it.

Speaker 3 Maybe it's going to finally work.

Speaker 1 Yeah, maybe being exactly like the Republicans will take the Democrats where they want to be one of these days.

Speaker 1 The thing they never learn is like what you should learn from the Republicans is that it's okay to be a dick to your enemies.

Speaker 1 You don't have to treat them respectfully just because you're running against them and you watch the West Wing, right? You don't have to, for example, lie about their wives.

Speaker 3 Aaron Sorkin and his consequences has been a disaster for U.S. politics.

Speaker 1 So Lee's tactics live on. He does not.
On March 5th, 1991, Atwater collapsed at a fundraiser for a Republican senator.

Speaker 1 And there's a very funny story in the documentary Boogeyman that covers Lee Atwater, where he, like Ed Rowlands, who worked several floors above him, when Lee starts having seizures, his aides go get Ed Rowlands because Atwater is like, you're the only guy I trust.

Speaker 1 They're going to kill me otherwise. And I don't know who they are.

Speaker 1 Is it the Democrats? Is it other nefarious people?

Speaker 1 But like Ed is like, I thought, you know, we'd really reached a point of like rapprochement because he was like, I'm sorry for like fucking you over and all the bad shit I did.

Speaker 1 You're the only one I trust. And Lee, like Rolands will be like, Lee said that I was his rock basically during this period.
And I found interviews with like.

Speaker 1 the like a major figure at the DNC saying the same things about Lee that like after Lee got sick he reached out to them and was like I now like we're friends now even though like I we're I can respect this person.

Speaker 1 I was never able to do that when I, before I got sick, but now I can respect this person who I disagree with. They've become my rock.
And it's just, I think Lee just lied a lot about who,

Speaker 1 how much support he was getting because he wanted other people to talk well about him after he died. I think that's most of what this is.

Speaker 3 That's really bizarre.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and that's kind of what Rolands concludes. We'll talk about that in a little bit, but like, yeah.
On a, so yeah, he collapses at this, at this fundraiser, gets taken to the hospital.

Speaker 1 Doctors find out he's got a brain tumor shortly thereafter.

Speaker 1 The New York Times wrote, quote, after the tumor was diagnosed, Mr. Atwater assigned friends and aides to research all aspects of the disease to help decide on the best course of treatment.

Speaker 1 Our research said and the further study of my scans kept us on a roller coaster of good news and bad, he said. Then on March 21st, we hit bottom.

Speaker 1 And it was then that he learned that the tumor was way worse than they had originally thought.

Speaker 1 He sees a healer who tells him to get rid of his black t-shirts and start wearing red underwear.

Speaker 4 And he does this.

Speaker 1 He tries massage therapy.

Speaker 1 But his particular cancer, it's this brain tumor he's got, the only way they have treating it at that time, I don't know if we're much better at it now, but they're literally drilling a hole into his head and dropping little radioactive specks in there.

Speaker 1 So he has to like sleep in a lead-lined room in his own house and it swells his head up. Like he's too embarrassed to be seen in public because his like head gets massively swollen.

Speaker 1 Like he does not, he looks like he's dying horribly, right? Like this is a really terrible death that he dies.

Speaker 1 And he's aware of it the whole time. There's a very unfortunate video of him like

Speaker 1 going out in South Carolina one last time and singing I'm bad while deeply ill and like not able to get the lyrics.

Speaker 1 And you can tell he just desperately wants to be back at his height again, back like at this peak he'd inhabited not long earlier.

Speaker 1 He talks about that a lot, about like, and he'll, he'll give crowd-pleasing speeches about how I had everything just a little while ago, and now I understand that like friends and family are all that matter but you can also tell like I don't know how much you believe that Lee I think you would you'd throw your friends and family away in a second to be healthy and able to do this for another 30 years just for a chance to go back to what you were yeah yeah um but he does

Speaker 1 There's a public perception that a change sweeps over Adwater. He writes like an article for the Times about how bad he feels about all his dirty tricks.

Speaker 1 He starts reaching out to people he'd harmed over the years. He sends a letter to Dekakis.

Speaker 1 He apologizes to him for the making Willie Horton your running mate comment and also for saying he intended to strip the bark off the little bastard.

Speaker 1 He admitted to the naked cruelty of the remarks. He also claimed to have sent an apology for Willie Horton.

Speaker 1 Now, the Marshall Project talked to Horton and Horton was like, I didn't, I don't remember getting it, but I got a lot of mail back then, so maybe I just missed it.

Speaker 1 That one's going to have to come down as like kind of unknown because Horton wasn't willing to didn't say it was a liar. It was like, no, I literally might have missed it.

Speaker 1 Like there were a lot of shit coming in back then.

Speaker 1 He does write apologies to a lot of people. Now, depending on who you ask, his people who remained his critics will be like, he never repudiated the tactics.

Speaker 1 He never said that he regretted helping out the Republican Party or everything he did to win. He just regretted how hurtful some of the specific things he did were.

Speaker 1 And he apologized to those individuals, right? But he never repudiated the strategies that had brought him wealth and power.

Speaker 1 And Jane Mayer, who goes through after his death and then after his wife's death, his kids let Jane Mayer go through his papers for The New Yorker, right?

Speaker 1 And like one of his daughters who went on to be a Democrat is like, I don't, I'm not going to talk about like my dad, what he did in politics.

Speaker 1 He was a good father during the time that I knew him, but like, you know, obviously, as adults, they thought that this stuff was important to get to a journalist, like given the influence he had creating the modern Republican Party.

Speaker 1 And Mayer also interviewed members of his family, his old partner, Roger Stone. She writes: His memoir calls on politicians to instead follow the golden rule.

Speaker 1 Roger Stone, who formed an early consulting and lobbying firm in the Washington area with Atwater, remains unconvinced about Atwater's spiritual awakening.

Speaker 1 Lee was a great storyteller, Stone told me in a recent interview, but in the end, he was just grasping at straws. The Atwater family disagrees and has no doubt that he became a Christian.

Speaker 1 But at that point, he was also a Buddhist, Hindu, and everything else. He had converted to every faith under the sun.
Whatever religious leader he sees, he's making a conversion.

Speaker 3 That's that old Lee that I know and love.

Speaker 1 That's the old Lee we know and love, old deathbed conversion Lee Atwater.

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Speaker 1 And we're back.

Speaker 1 So I want to read, there's a fascinating paragraph from a Brooklyn Rail article,

Speaker 1 a letter from the Trail, Atwater's Ghost, that really gets into how Atwater paved the way for Trump, not just by normalizing ugly attacks and making rhetoric meaner, but by destroying the credibility of even mainstream Republican candidates.

Speaker 1 In other words, decades of Atwater politics convinced conservative voters that there were no good candidates, not even on their side, which was a necessary precursor to Trump's rise to power.

Speaker 1 And this is something I didn't really get until I read this article.

Speaker 3 Oh, my God. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Let me read this quote first and we'll talk about it.

Speaker 1 As Atwater's progeny have become embedded in the party and its process, the constant stoking of fears and the consistent personal attacks have eaten away at the credibility of its candidates, and in turn, the candidates don't actually particularly require credibility to become the nominee.

Speaker 1 Far more important is money, organization, effective destruction of the other, and an ability to address as little as possible. The campaign is now only about the campaign.

Speaker 1 Accordingly, mere electability becomes the only major issue. The ability to campaign all that matters.

Speaker 1 It is not he who is best who will win, but he who best runs that will be awarded the chance to run again.

Speaker 3 It's so much of it is like disregarding, like accepting that each candidate as like a person, obviously, is going to be terrible. And

Speaker 3 it's just about this theatrical process. Right.

Speaker 1 And who is best able to withstand it and endure it and what, which is not ever going to be someone who's a good person anywhere close.

Speaker 1 Not that that's who was getting elected before, but man, are you going to be worse, right?

Speaker 1 And there's one story from that boogeyman documentary that I find really funny about Lee near the end, which is they talked to one of his like mini RB singer friends, like one of these guys that, who's like a legitimate like actual legend within the field, Chuck Jackson,

Speaker 1 who like he played with from time to time and who thought himself a friend of Lee's.

Speaker 1 And Chuck was like, when he got sick, you know, I gave him a Bible and he told me, you know, that this, this really helped. This was like the one thing that helped get me through.

Speaker 1 It was like, you know, coming back to finding my faith and you know thank you you played a big role in that giving me this bible it meant everything to me and the documentary then cuts to ed rolins being like well i was talking to a friend after they cleaned this stuff out of his office and she found the bible and it was still wrapped in cellophane and he was like

Speaker 1 that was lee lion

Speaker 1 every time

Speaker 1 And like, he dies. He dies at fucking 40, right? And March 29th, 1991, after a year-long fight against a brain tumor.
He is 40 years old.

Speaker 1 Man,

Speaker 3 he probably never even got to see Wild at Heart.

Speaker 1 Never got to see Wild at Heart.

Speaker 1 He did get nominated for a Grammy that he does not get for this terrible album of his.

Speaker 1 He gets not, which is listed as like one of the only things he wanted out of life that he hadn't gotten, is a Grammy. But at least he got nominated before he died.

Speaker 1 He's buried in his jogging suit and holding his red, hot, and blue album.

Speaker 1 So, grave robbers, there's

Speaker 1 a nominee. He had water.

Speaker 3 Better known for his other work.

Speaker 1 Better known for his other work, destroying the country. Helping to, right?

Speaker 1 God, it's so funny.

Speaker 1 He's such a fantastic piece of shit.

Speaker 1 There's a really good quote. I also like that Brooklyn Rail article, how it describes his end, like his last months of life.
So I'm going to read that really quickly as we close out.

Speaker 1 Telling a friend that it's all bullshit.

Speaker 4 The truth has nothing to do with it.

Speaker 1 Atwater talked with regret of his actions, seemingly fearful of that which he was leaving behind.

Speaker 1 Whether the repentance was genuine or just a calculated attempt to gain passage to a peaceful afterlife will never be discovered.

Speaker 1 But the damaging effects of his earthbound legacy were plain to see in his home of South Carolina.

Speaker 1 If one is seeking an analogy to describe the current incarnation of the Republican Party, one could do worse than a dying Lee Atwater, its brain consumed with a deadly cancer, its words erratic, their credibility under assault by its own crisis, its body radiated, fattened, atrophied.

Speaker 1 At the last, the analogy runs dry, for while Lee let out a cry for forgiveness, a plea to heaven, the party and its voters seem to be headed in the opposite direction.

Speaker 1 And all of us going with them, you know, that's the one thing all of these negative articles about Lee tended to have wrong was they all were written more in the ots.

Speaker 1 A lot of them came out during like this particular one that I'm quoting from came out in 2012. So it's like the middle of the Obama years.

Speaker 1 I'm like, no, no, no, this is going to work out a lot better for them than you think it is. You're just irrationally optimistic right now because we're in between shitstorms.
But

Speaker 1 boy, howdy, I'll give you a couple more years. You'll be writing different things about old Lee.

Speaker 1 Oh my. Yep.

Speaker 1 How are we doing?

Speaker 1 Oh well.

Speaker 1 Anyway.

Speaker 3 I mean, yeah, I don't know what else there is to say.

Speaker 1 I mean, he,

Speaker 3 it's not necessarily that like he won, but like his shadow, I guess, looms.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he taught them what they needed to know to get to the next step.

Speaker 3 He was a trailblazer, I guess. He was a trailblazer.

Speaker 1 People are continuing that trail even further than what he had in mind and he maybe saw the extension of of where that trail would go and maybe that like frightened him a little bit but making the trail was just too much fun yeah yeah he may have hoped kind of half-heartedly that like ah well now i got kids he's starting to because his kids are young when he dies so maybe there's a maybe there's a moment in there where he's like oh no i may have left them a much worse world and i had always kind of hoped i'd get enough time to like redeem myself help someone who didn't suck ass get elected president maybe i'm giving lee too much credit there, right?

Speaker 1 I don't really think he became much better, but I'll believe he was worried about the future that he helped make, you know?

Speaker 3 We got to have like a, like a, like a political position in the country, like like our, like our national like riddler, you know, just somebody that can have fun, play some games.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 We need a fourth branch of the government. That's the riddler.
Yes.

Speaker 3 Because we could, we could save

Speaker 3 so much trouble by just having people who need to be entertainment but can't quite cut it serve in public office in some way. It's kind of an extension of

Speaker 3 a court gesture role. And I think this would be really helpful.

Speaker 3 We should nationalize wrestling or something.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we should nationalize wrestling.

Speaker 1 I've been saying for a while, we need to, one real use for all of the AI chatbots is we can create a fake Hollywood where like you give people like Ben Shapiro like Hallmark movie budgets to write Make Bed Ever movies, and we just generate fake fans for them.

Speaker 1 And we

Speaker 1 trick them all into thinking that they're beloved creators.

Speaker 1 We give them an award every now and then.

Speaker 3 This could be one of the greatest harm mitigation operations of all time.

Speaker 1 We could have saved the country, you know, if we, if we'd really gotten out of this early enough, we could have done a lot of good.

Speaker 3 I mean, even people on the left like this sort of thing. Like just this past weekend, Zoron did a massive scavenger hunt around New York City.
Everyone wants to do this sort of stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I think we should have a proper place for it.

Speaker 1 We should.

Speaker 3 Let that man play some mediocre blues.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, God.
If only, I mean, we started to figure that out. He got his album at the end.

Speaker 4 And you really got the feeling that like

Speaker 1 if we had let him cut a blues album earlier.

Speaker 3 If he got the Grammy in the 70s,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 1 We need an organization doing what like the CIA used to do for like democracies in Latin America, but for

Speaker 1 like failed comedians that are clearly heading for the far right, we're like, no, no, no, you got to save this man's career.

Speaker 3 We got a possible Steven Crowder situation developing in

Speaker 1 Iowa. If Joe Rogan gets too into podcasts, it's going to be a disaster for everybody else.
You need to get his acting career going.

Speaker 1 Get him a gig every two years with Adam Sandler and some factoring movie.

Speaker 3 Is a go.

Speaker 1 I can just imagine like Adam Sandler's out in like the fucking woods of Montana. A helicopter touches touches down.
A man from the NS. Mr.
Sandler, we need you to make another movie.

Speaker 1 Here's your cast list, sir. I got out of this business years ago.
Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3 So what's your job of government?

Speaker 1 I'm Adam Carolla's official handler. Yeah, yeah.
I convince Adam Carolla things are still going well. He's popular.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 Yes, it is a full-time job.

Speaker 3 If the Democratic, like, elite cabal was real, this is what they should be doing.

Speaker 1 This is the actual need. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Anyway. Oh, well.

Speaker 5 Got anything you want to plug, Gare?

Speaker 3 Sure.

Speaker 3 News podcast. It could happen here.
Our weekly news roundup, executive disorder.

Speaker 3 I post about Yaoi and conspiracy theories and other fun stuff that tickles my fancy on Blue Sky and X the Everything app at by Shonen type.

Speaker 3 Wrapping up a series right now for It Could Happen Here on Blue and On, liberal conspiracy theories. So that'll probably be out by the time you listen to this.
So

Speaker 3 find that on It Could Happen Here.

Speaker 5 That will not be out by the time they listen to this. That'll be coming out

Speaker 5 a couple days after this wrap.

Speaker 3 After Labor Day. I'm still polishing this conspiracy turd.
So

Speaker 3 after Labor Day, check out my piece on Blue and On.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. All right, everybody.
And remember, folks, if you need to get a copy of the original album pressing of Red, Hot, and Blue, just find Lee Atwater's Grave.

Speaker 1 There's a track scene in there, too.

Speaker 3 Oh, my God.

Speaker 5 Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3 Send it up with Voyager. We need the aliens to listen to this.

Speaker 5 Oh, my God.

Speaker 5 Behind the Bastards is a production of CoolZone Media.

Speaker 2 For more from CoolZone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday.
Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at behind the bastards.

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