It Could Happen Here Weekly 172

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Speaker 22 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode.

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Speaker 4 Hi, everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's James today, and I'm joined again by Kevin MacDonald.

Speaker 4 Kevin is a retired officer from the Irish Defence Forces with some special forces and peacekeeping experience. Welcome to the show, Kevin.

Speaker 6 Thanks very much for having me.

Speaker 6 And just as a sort of disclaimer at the very start, any views or opinions that I express, they're the opinions of a retired senior officer from the Irish Defence Forces, can't be construed as being in any way the views of the Irish Defence Forces, nor indeed that of the United Nations.

Speaker 6 So I just wanted to put that out there before we get into it.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, not a UN or Irish Defence Forces spokesperson. Not that we've had many of those, I suppose, on our show.
Kevin, we're here today to talk a little bit about the situation in...

Speaker 4 Congo and perhaps more specifically, like how the peacekeeping mission there has evolved and changed and sort of morphed over the years.

Speaker 4 So maybe just to begin with, I can give an idea that like this city of Goma, which is the capital of North Kivu province, has recently been captured by M23 rebels.

Speaker 4 We'll explain who they are for people who aren't familiar in a minute. It's a city of about a million people.

Speaker 4 I believe they're saying around 3,000 people have been killed in this operation, which is, I mean, it's a massive death toll.

Speaker 6 In a short space of time.

Speaker 4 Very short space of time. Yeah.
And some of the other stuff I've heard, like at one point, there was a prison within the city, which there was a jailbreak.

Speaker 4 And they think 100 of the women who were incarcerated there were sexually assaulted and in some cases burned alive after the jailbreak happened.

Speaker 4 Thousands of Congolese military and police have surrendered. A contingent of, I believe, Romanian private military contractors were captured.

Speaker 6 Yes, captured, surrendered. Either way, they went into Rwanda.
I think about 300 of them, which is a significant amount of mercenaries.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, especially when you're talking about Romania, which is not a vast country. Yeah.
Understandably, a lot of things are happening in the US, so people may have missed it.

Speaker 4 And like, I think people in the US, just due to the nature of news being quite navel-gazing here, may not be as familiar with the conflict in Congo.

Speaker 4 Like, if they know about it, it's from Warren's Yvonne songs or maybe from maybe from a couple of films.

Speaker 6 Liars, guns, and money.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. What's the other one? Roland, the Thompson gunner.
that's the uh yeah roland the headless thompson gunner that's it that's the one yeah yeah yeah

Speaker 6 so let's talk then about the various united nations peacekeeping missions in congo they've been there for what since the 1960s is it on and off yeah so the first mission in the congo was uh onok in 1960 and a lot of people would say that that was the first un mission but as i think we discussed the last time the first un mission was full-scale war in 1950 in Korea.

Speaker 6 And that mission is still in existence, the UNC, the United Nations Command.

Speaker 6 But I suppose speaking about the Congo specifically, so in 1960, there was 17 newly independent states, of which 14 were from Africa, agreed to a call from the UN to establish this mission in the Congo.

Speaker 6 And Ireland answered the call as well. So we deployed.
It was the first time that we deployed with the UN.

Speaker 6 And we had a battalion there from 1960 to, I think, 1964 or whenever the initial deployment ended. And

Speaker 6 it was a fairly tough, intense introduction to peacekeeping. In the early 1960, there was an engagement between an Irish platoon and a large group of Baluba tribesmen.

Speaker 6 And there was nine Irish soldiers killed and 26 Balubas killed. And that was the first time that Ireland kind of had to deal with that kind of death overseas.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 it was pretty traumatic. And then in 1961, you've probably seen the film The Siege of Jadedeville.
Yeah. But it recounts the true story of an Irish company under Commonwealth Pat Quendlin.

Speaker 6 His company was 158, roughly strong.

Speaker 6 And they were attacked while they were at mass on a Sunday morning.

Speaker 6 by a group of between three and four thousand katanganese well-armed soldiers backed up by french and belgian and south African mercenaries. Yeah.

Speaker 6 They also had an attack helicopter and they had an attack jet.

Speaker 4 I think you had some of the old Rhodesians in there as well at that time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 Unfortunately. Anything for a fight.

Speaker 6 But

Speaker 6 the Irish held out for, I think, over a week. And they didn't give up when they ran out of water.
They didn't give up when they ran out of food. It was when they had no bullets left.

Speaker 6 They negotiated a surrender. Thanks to the skill of the officers and NCOs NCOs and men, not one fatality on the Irish side.

Speaker 6 Unfortunately, when they came home because they had surrendered, they were treated like pariahs for years.

Speaker 6 It was seen like a stain on the nation. Now, if God forbid, they had 50% casualties that have been treated like heroes.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 And it's only in recent years that they're getting the recognition that they should have got back in 1961.

Speaker 4 That's really interesting. I know they've been treated that way.
It's quite sad to hear.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah, it's a strange one. And a lot of the people that were, we'll say, shunning these officers and NCOs and men happened to serve overseas.

Speaker 6 And like if the UN, they tried once to resupply them with ammunition from the year, but it wasn't successful. So if the UN had fully supported that company, they would have held out even longer.

Speaker 6 But I suppose that's the way things go. So that's...
the first mission to the Congo. And I could be corrected.
I think 64, 65, it might have sort of started to draw down.

Speaker 6 Then in 1999, after it was the first of the second war, the UN established MONOC, M-O-N-U-C,

Speaker 6 and that lasted from 1999 until 2010, when it was renamed and re-changed into MONUSCO.

Speaker 6 And the difference between the two is that MONUSCO is what we call an integrated mission.

Speaker 6 The three pillars of an integrated mission are the restoration of the rule of law, the protection of civilians, and the provision for long-term recovery and democratic governance.

Speaker 6 So it's combining with

Speaker 6 the force of a military presence, but also there's special advisors on justice, on policing, on governance, all that sort of stuff, which you wouldn't have in a mission like Unifil, which we discussed the last time.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah. Which is the earlier form of peacekeeping.
So MNOSCO was supposed to have left the country in 2024, but they were given a, I think, a one-year extension.

Speaker 6 And unfortunately,

Speaker 6 with the M23 rebel advance, the mission is

Speaker 6 relocating most of its staff, evacuating others. The difference between the two terms is very specific.
You relocate within a country and you evacuate out of a country.

Speaker 6 And I also note that the...

Speaker 6 some of the the hybrid

Speaker 6 African Union peacekeeping operations, there was, I think, 13 South Africans killed in the initial stages of

Speaker 6 the onslaught

Speaker 6 towards Goma. So that's kind of where we are with

Speaker 6 the UNF. I think

Speaker 6 at its height, within 21, 22, there was probably a strength of 20,000. But if you think the DRC is the second largest country in Africa.

Speaker 4 It's vast.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And the 11th largest country in the world.

Speaker 6 The size is just phenomenal. So you can imagine what the Congo and its entirety, no, more than Sudan, but what the Congo in its entirety was back in the day.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Absolutely huge.
Yeah, it's vast. It encompasses different climate zones, different ethnic groups, as we're seeing, right?

Speaker 6 200 main ethnic groups.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. It's

Speaker 4 a fascinating place. It's a place I've wanted to go for a long time.
I spent some time on the Congo-Rwanda border a few years ago.

Speaker 4 Not so far from Gomer, actually, like riding my bike around. And it's a very interesting place in terms of, well, Rwanda is a very interesting place in terms of its relation to its neighbors.

Speaker 4 I think people will probably struggle to conceptualize. I actually saw somebody had posted on Twitter, somebody who talks about Syria mostly, like, how on earth is Rwanda invading Congo?

Speaker 4 And they had a picture, you know, and

Speaker 4 the land mass of Rwanda. Rwanda's one of the smaller countries in Africa, and Congo is obviously a vast country.
Are you comfortable explaining a little bit of like the Rwandan involvement?

Speaker 6 It's complicated and it goes back to the

Speaker 6 genocide back in 1994.

Speaker 6 94, I think, yeah.

Speaker 6 And the

Speaker 6 two kivus, north and south Kivu, which is on the border with Rwanda,

Speaker 6 there is a large amount of ethnic Tutsis, Congolese Tutsis. Yeah.

Speaker 6 I think what Rwanda has always projected force into the two Kivus and Katanga because like literally that that's that's where the money is.

Speaker 6 Of course, Rwanda would say they don't, but they are actively supporting

Speaker 6 M23 and have yeah and most of the M23 certainly the leadership would be ethnic Congolese Tutsis yeah so ostensibly I think the the raison d'etre for for Rwanda's involvement was to protect the ethnic tutsis from hutus that had escaped from the from the

Speaker 6 genocide so it's it's complicated but If you kind of park those complications and think of the money trail, it kind of leads to the two kivus because 70 of the world's cobalt i think

Speaker 6 is kind of located between the two kivus and then you've gold diamonds all all the other sort of uh rich minerals yeah incredible wealth in congo yeah yeah but i i was reading that the the estimated deposits in eastern congo is something like 23 trillion.

Speaker 6 Like it's it's off the wall stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 6 So it's no wonder it's become the battleground that it has essentially since 1960, because in 1960, after getting independence, the Kivu and Katanga wanted to secede

Speaker 6 back by Belgium. And that's kind of what kicked off a lot of the conflict in 1960.
And the reverberations from that are still are still kind of being felt and being exploited because

Speaker 6 everyone wants to get a piece of the action like all the surrounding countries. So

Speaker 4 I see, I think it was yesterday that the they're planning a meeting i think it's this week or this weekend to try and resolve the conflict and this time they're going to try and include m23 in the in the meeting rather than exclude them i don't think they have a choice i mean they're heading down to bukavu so yeah i mean m23 have said that they're going for sort of the whole country now that they're not you know it's not a regional or like you know ethnic movement so much as a and they will m23 would say that they're not like per se ethnic separatist right like i think they would claim that they're like a liberation liberation of congo force um and then you've burundi supporting the congolese government uh you know there's all kinds of as you say like regional and international actors because of the wealth in congo and like that's congo emerge from the drc emerged from its colonial past right it's always been destabilized by these

Speaker 4 actors both regional and international who who wanted a piece of that mineral wealth and then they've created and sustained these differences which have become,

Speaker 4 I think there's some evidence to suggest that like certainly the like

Speaker 4 the ethnic differences have become more pronounced and more like intransigent, I suppose, or like, you know, it's become more difficult for those ethnic groups to coexist over time due to decades of conflict, right?

Speaker 4 And killing. And it's a very

Speaker 4 difficult situation. And it leaves people.
like the civilians living in Goma today in a terrible situation where I think this is the fifth time that people have attacked Goma.

Speaker 4 Like it's certainly, I think the last time was about 2012, was it? When the last time M23 took Goma.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and that's when the, which we'll probably discuss later, the Force Intervention Brigade retook Goma in 2013 in a relatively short space of time. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Compared to how long it took to, well, they regained it fairly quickly.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so I think we break for adverts now.

Speaker 4 I'd like to come back and discuss the Force Intervention Brigade because I think it's something that people ought to understand when we talk about peacekeeping

Speaker 4 and we're back okay so yeah we you mentioned the force intervention brigade which is something a bit unique within peacekeeping and there's a lot of like when people talk about peacekeeping they'll be like oh well why aren't they fighting why aren't they like going and stopping the things and i understand why people ask that so can you explain a little bit about what the FIB was and what it did?

Speaker 6 The concept of the Force Intervention Brigade was, I think, to my knowledge, it's the first UN mission that developed that concept.

Speaker 6 And they actually changed the mandate to include an offensive capability for UN troops, as opposed to defensive or separation of warring factions. This was full-on warfighting.

Speaker 6 And what they had figured out, because the DRC is so big that the footprint, even with 20,000 troops, the footprint on the ground was not sufficient to, we'd say,

Speaker 6 as I said, one of the three pillars of an integrated mission is protection of civilians. And they were finding that very difficult.

Speaker 6 So they decided to use a concept of protection by projection rather than protection by presence.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 not alone did they have the Force and Devon Brigade, they had the joint protection teams and also an idea of a rapidly deployable battalion.

Speaker 6 So, the idea was that the force intervention brigade would say do the heavy lifting.

Speaker 6 And then, when hot spots flare up, they could use either the rapidly deployed battalions or the joint protection teams.

Speaker 6 So, the idea was that rather than having static positions trying to protect people, they would go where the action was. That was the idea.

Speaker 6 And in fairness, the FIB had artillery, mortars, snipers, attack helicopters, UAVs, special forces. They retook GOM in,

Speaker 6 I don't know the exact time frame, but I think it was less than a month.

Speaker 6 One of the problems, and I think we touched on it the last time we spoke, and I think this is a specific problem to how the FIB didn't really keep going the way it should have, is that two of the main TCCs were Tanzania and South Africa.

Speaker 6 And they would have had...

Speaker 6 slightly different agendas in terms of who they should and they shouldn't attack attack based on their government's position. Sorry, TCC is a troop

Speaker 6 countries. Excuse me, if I should have said that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, it's a sea of acronyms here. I've tried to avoid all the

Speaker 4 faction acronyms, but yeah. Yeah, explain that a bit because when people think of the UN

Speaker 4 and peacekeepers or troop contributing countries, the only time it comes on the news

Speaker 4 in sort of the global north is when people from, say, Northern Europe or North America are part of these UN peacekeeping missions.

Speaker 4 So they think of people, British troops, American, Canadian, what have you, in their blue helmets, right? But the vast bulk of TCCs don't come from Northern Europe, right?

Speaker 4 In Africa, the majority of TCCs are other African countries. I think I'm right in saying it's a majority.

Speaker 6 Yeah, like here

Speaker 6 in

Speaker 6 South Sudan, most of the big battalions are Rwanda, Nepal, Mongolia, China.

Speaker 6 Generally speaking, in my experience, in the Central African Republic and here, a lot of the battalions come from Africa, which is fair enough. I mean,

Speaker 6 it's their continent. Yeah.
And

Speaker 6 they should have a stake in trying to foster peace and develop peace and help countries in less or more dire situations than they themselves perhaps are.

Speaker 6 And so it's, I understand your point about

Speaker 6 different countries being aware of what the UN does based on, like take for instance, everyone in Ireland knows about the UN and they know about the Irish in Lebanon and in Syria and in Africa.

Speaker 6 I'm sure in the United Kingdom, because you've got a very small UN footprint,

Speaker 6 Cyprus being one and there's a few you guys here.

Speaker 6 Generally, people in the UK, I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten me on this, wouldn't have the exact same intimate knowledge or even interest in the UN

Speaker 6 because basically they don't have a big footprint, deployable footprint.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. And it's the same with the United States.
I think it's not something that people think about for the most part.

Speaker 4 And so like there's this question of like, why doesn't the UN certainly, I think when people saw what happened recently in Lebanon, they were like, why are these peacekeepers?

Speaker 4 You know, where you had these peacekeepers, and we spoke about this in our last episode, right, being shelled, being shot at. You know, the people were asking why they weren't out there fighting.

Speaker 4 And there are a lot of reasons for that. Like one being that's not what they're there to do.
But yeah, when we had this force intervention brigade in Congo, they did some good things, right?

Speaker 4 Like they were able to retake Goma. And for the people who lived in Goma, I'm sure that was very important.
Like that meaningfully improved their lives.

Speaker 4 But like it also comes with these complications that you've addressed, right? Like each of those, those troop contributing countries,

Speaker 4 you need everyone to be committed to like

Speaker 4 the same mission, I suppose. And like if

Speaker 4 your government is giving your armed forces one mission and that differs slightly from that, which

Speaker 4 whoever's in command of the Force Intergentry Brigade has, then

Speaker 4 we get friction, right? Or it's not as efficient as it could be.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think

Speaker 6 I'm sure I mentioned it when we last spoke. It's one thing developing a robust mandate, but

Speaker 6 if the TCCs don't have the skills, the experience, the training, the equipment, or the will to enforce the robust nature of that mandate, well, then the mandate isn't really worth anything. So

Speaker 6 it's kind of a like, yes, the FIB was extremely effective for a while

Speaker 6 until it wasn't. Now, whether that was a lack of will on the TCCs or on New York or mission leadership, I have no idea, but, but it was a great idea and it worked

Speaker 6 and then didn't work. Yeah.
Plus, the fact that the DRC wanted the mission to downsize and eventually leave, that added to the, well, should we really invest in something when we're going to pull out?

Speaker 6 Because

Speaker 6 the country doesn't want us here anymore, which is, again, it's a fair point.

Speaker 4 Yeah, right. No one wants foreign troops in their country, right? You know, walking around, especially, you know, engaging their own citizens.
But I mean, it's interesting. I was watching a speech.

Speaker 4 The current president of the DRC, Felix Tishisake, I've tried my best to pronounce that correctly. It's not out of disrespect.

Speaker 4 He was saying that the international community is bordering on complicit in M23's advance because of the failure to do anything about it in a speech he gave this week.

Speaker 4 And it was interesting because it had previously been, like you said, for under very understandable reasons, especially in the DRC, which has this long and horrible history of colonialism, like the terrible things done in the Belgian Congo.

Speaker 4 We've covered those a lot on Bastards for another show that we do. People can listen to that if they want to.
But like now, he's asking for more help, which is also understandable because

Speaker 4 his military is 125,000 000 or so like and uh a large number of that is not very combat effective forces maybe yeah and and they've just been overrun in girmer in a big city a city of a million people so like

Speaker 4 where do you think we go from here what's like

Speaker 4 we're at a very unique time in in world history in which the united states is uh

Speaker 4 it's doing some things with his foreign policy. Like, I mean,

Speaker 4 I won't really mince words about it. I think it's terrible, but

Speaker 4 if we talk about like USAID, right?

Speaker 4 I was speaking to people on the Thai-Burmese border last week who were telling me that USAID has turned off life support machines as part of its drawdown and that people obviously directly died as a result of that there.

Speaker 4 So the U.S. is not necessarily averse to having terrible consequences to its

Speaker 4 whatever it's trying to do right now, which I don't really have a good word for. So look, where do we go from here with the US becoming more isolationist?

Speaker 6 Well, let's discuss for a few minutes the alternatives to UN peacekeep.

Speaker 6 And there's a lot of them here in Africa. So you have the South African Development Community, SADC, the East African Community.

Speaker 6 There was an African Union stroke UN hybrid mission in Darfur, UNAMID, which is closing. There was an AU mission in Somalia.

Speaker 6 There is the Lake Chad Basin Multinational Task Force. There's the group of five for the sahel

Speaker 6 then you had eu4

Speaker 6 which was an eu force in chad and in mali and subsequently became manurkat in chad and minusna in mali then you have the eutm mission in mali which i was part of at one stage

Speaker 6 and another one in somalia

Speaker 6 and of course we have our mercenaries

Speaker 6 you know and when it emerged that there was over 300 of them allowed into rwanda i was reading the report that they were getting something like $3,500 a month, whereas the DRC soldiers were getting maybe $300 a month.

Speaker 6 Yeah. You know, and these guys were brought in to protect the mines, because again, it goes back to money.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're protecting resources, not people.
That's a different thing. So what have those

Speaker 4 African-led peacekeeping missions look like? Like you talked about these various international and

Speaker 6 regional groups. I think

Speaker 6 it's certainly worth a try

Speaker 6 because the UN hasn't the ability, nor indeed the money, I presume, to keep doing these large, big missions.

Speaker 6 At one stage, the three largest missions were MNUSCO, which we're discussing, MENUSCA and the Central African Republic, and MINUSMA, which was in Mali. Mali's gone.
DRC is on the drawdown.

Speaker 6 Central African Republic is still there.

Speaker 6 I've noted, I spent four years there and obviously I have a keen interest in the place. but there has been a big increase in

Speaker 6 anti-French. It's a francophone country, anti-French, and linked with a kind of an anti-UN sentiment.
Now,

Speaker 6 the special advisor to the president is from Russia. Wagner, you had a big part to play when I was there.
There were key players. Yeah.
Most likely they're interlinked.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, and they've done some things which have been horrific.

Speaker 4 We've covered that as well with our friend Derma on the show.

Speaker 4 I did want to talk about this because the US is talking about withdrawing its sort of what we call like soft power assets, right, around the world.

Speaker 4 And I saw like, I forget who it was saying, like, oh, let the chips fall where they may. It was very obvious where the chips will fall in this part of the world, right?

Speaker 4 Like, um, when I was in Rwanda, every fancy road in Rwanda, they call them Chinese roads because they go from the mines to the airport.

Speaker 6 Yeah, Belton Braces. Yep.

Speaker 4 It's as naked a resource extraction project as you'll see, right? Now, China also does the soft power thing. They'll They'll build hospitals and

Speaker 4 these, you know, I forget where the quote comes from, but like every time the US comes, we get a lecture. And every time China comes, we get a hospital.

Speaker 4 This will reorient the way these countries, specifically in Africa, associate with the world, right? With the US drawdown and the United Nations not capable or willing of sort of

Speaker 4 doing these massive peacekeeping missions. And I think for very understandable reasons, groups like the EU, you know,

Speaker 4 it's best not to have large deployments of European armed forces in Africa for reasons that are probably quite obvious. So, like, yeah, we're likely to see.

Speaker 4 I mean, hasn't Wagner rebranded itself as the Africa Corps now?

Speaker 6 Yeah, I'm not sure who's running it now, but I'm sure the strings are being more closely pulled by

Speaker 6 Putin as opposed to having very loose control when Progozhin was there.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 It was giving him like a standoff capability. It was this is just a PMC, nothing to do with me.

Speaker 6 But

Speaker 6 I would imagine after his drive to Moscow and the subsequent demise, I'm sure that whoever is running the Africa Corps is much more tightly controlled by the Kremlin. I would imagine.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's like a British East India Company kind of model, like a sort of proxy colonialism, but very tight, like you say, it's just almost just like a different badge on the same thing there.

Speaker 4 I think this is one of the things that won't get talked about in the next four years because the US media will talk about the US a lot again.

Speaker 4 I mean, they always do, but I think people should be concerned about this, about the future for

Speaker 4 like multinational peacekeeping in Africa. And more importantly, I guess the future for, or interlinked with that, the future for human rights in Africa.

Speaker 4 What do you see as meaningful ways that people can advocate for a future for Africa, which is not just another set of countries extracting resources and leaving very little for the people there, which is something that has happened.

Speaker 4 You know, I'm a British person. This has happened by British people for a very long time and other European people for a very long time.

Speaker 4 But like, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try and stop it happening in the future.

Speaker 6 That's a difficult one to answer because ideally,

Speaker 6 African problems should, in my opinion, be solved by African nations.

Speaker 6 And that's the reason that the African Union and all these other ones that I mentioned, I think, are an attempt to do that.

Speaker 6 And certainly Europe and the US shouldn't be dictating how Africans govern themselves. They should.
be assisting in good governance, good policing, good judiciary.

Speaker 6 But it kind of goes back to money again because there's so much of a vested interest. Like I heard a figure that M23 were getting $800,000 a month from some of the mines in Kivus.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I can believe it. So when you get that kind of money floating around,

Speaker 6 a lot of people maybe don't want to sort things out. Yeah.
And

Speaker 6 it may suit

Speaker 6 to leave the mayhem there and use all these artisanal miners who are getting paid a couple of cents a day. And Rwanda has just got a big contract with the EU in terms of diamonds.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, that is the thing, right? We can tell where this stuff comes from. Like

Speaker 4 there is a means to

Speaker 4 try and limit the amount of these resources which can leave conflict zones in a way which benefits belligerent parties.

Speaker 4 It's where the markets for those resources are willing to do it, right? Yeah.

Speaker 6 And everyone has a stake in the pie, whether it's the overseer of the mine, whether it's the company that owns the mine, whether it's the

Speaker 6 people that move the product from Kivu into some neighboring country,

Speaker 6 and then ultimately the people that buy it commercially in Western Europe or along the rest of the world.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. And it's...

Speaker 4 It's not, you know, people think of diamonds a lot.

Speaker 4 And I think people that there's been a kind of movement to purchase diamonds, which are ethically sourced or to just not use diamonds to sort of move away from them as like a store of value. But

Speaker 4 it's also the parts in your mobile phone, isn't it? It's not, you know, it's not just like fancy engagement rings.

Speaker 6 This is it, yeah. Are you willing to pay double the price for more ethical mining methods? Most people probably earn.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's the thing, right? And especially when it's out of sight, out of mind for most people.

Speaker 4 Even compared to, you know, we obviously genocide of Palestinian people or the

Speaker 4 you know, when we think about these other atrocities, right? Like those have not remained out of sight out of mind, like because they're visible on people's social media, because

Speaker 4 people in Palestine have phones and they can film. And like that's, I think, meaningfully changed the way, like, I wouldn't have thought American people would

Speaker 4 care about Palestinian people. I moved here in 2008.
And

Speaker 4 you wouldn't have found much interest in Palestine.

Speaker 6 You wouldn't have expected them to promote ethnic cleansing in Gaza.

Speaker 4 Yeah, no, well, you wouldn't have expected that either. But

Speaker 4 the movement to support Palestinian people at this, like from the grassroots, and then also be the government doing the exact opposite. You know, it's come from the bottom up.

Speaker 4 It hasn't come from government advocacy. But we don't see that as much with certainly this part of Africa, right?

Speaker 4 Like, and it's, I suppose it's a consequence of like people in Congo maybe aren't able to access those global networks of like social media and maybe to share their stories, you know?

Speaker 4 And I think it's also a consequence of us in the media not reporting at all. You know, like I've for years tried to sell stories about Africa to American publications.

Speaker 4 And at best, they'll want a story about like the people who are starting like social enterprise, like European or North American people starting like social enterprises or like sort of beneficial companies.

Speaker 4 And I understand those have a role, but like.

Speaker 4 You're not going to persuade me that there isn't a single African person of interest to you and that like it's someone who came from North America, that it's the only relevant story to tell in Africa.

Speaker 4 And, like, I've had this falling out with so many editors over the years that, like, no, I don't want to tell that story.

Speaker 4 I want to tell a story about people from Congo in Congo, about people from Rwanda and Rwanda.

Speaker 6 I live in a town towards the west coast of Ireland, and there's a guy from there. What I'll do is I'll send you a link.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 But he's passionate about getting free education in Africa between online courses and online libraries.

Speaker 6 Obviously, the more education you get, the better chance you have of having a better life.

Speaker 6 So, yeah, I did have some stuff and I'll send it on to you and then you can figure out whether it'll be an interesting topic or whatever.

Speaker 6 But I just literally, as we were talking, I was thinking of how one guy is trying to change conditions for younger people in Africa and trying to give it to them for free.

Speaker 4 That's it. Yeah, that's the key is like...
people doing it. One of the things that people did, which I thought was really great as an example, as a model, is

Speaker 4 from October, about October the 10th of 2023, I suppose, people weren't going to school or university in Gaza.

Speaker 4 And very quickly, there weren't any universities in Gaza because they all got bombed, right?

Speaker 4 The colleagues of mine in academic departments started putting on seminars and lectures that Palestinian people, be they displaced or still in Gaza, but with access to internet, you know, still displaced, but internally displaced, could attend and continue with their educations.

Speaker 4 And I thought that was a really great, like solidarity-based way to facilitate access to something that people have had taken away from them through no fault of their own by state aggression.

Speaker 6 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4 Yeah, there's a model for that. I mean, colonialism has done many terrible things, but it's given us a common language with a lot of our African friends.

Speaker 4 You know, you speak French and English, you can, you can do quite well. So, like,

Speaker 4 yeah, there are things available. And I wish people would,

Speaker 4 I don't think people should stop caring about Palestine, of course, I don't, but I do wish they would care more about people in Africa too, because like they don't deserve this any more than anyone else.

Speaker 6 I was born in 1960 when the first mission went to the Congo.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 6 it's been going on. Like I'm 64.
It's been around 64 years. Yeah.
So

Speaker 6 no more than the problem with the Palestinians.

Speaker 6 I think some people, unless you have a specific interest in it or feel passionate about it a lot of people just i think tune out and they go to the next pronouncement from the white house you know it's like clickbait yeah

Speaker 6 so i think it's a sad fact

Speaker 6 but it's the factor i think

Speaker 4 yeah

Speaker 4 yeah it's a shame and like you know if there's one thing i'd like to do with my career i i'd like to spend more time in that part of the world and do more reporting and uh

Speaker 4 it i think we could do a lot with as a media with uh

Speaker 4 just explaining how life is for everyday people because people think about Congo in terms of yeah the the m23 and the Congolese government and the Hutu militias and this and that but like the vast majority of people are just trying to get on with their day you know they want a better future for their children yeah and

Speaker 4 you know the fact that your mobile phone is cheap is maybe making their children's future worse and that's something that we need to reckon with and and e-cars Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, this is the thing people don't talk about, electric cars. It's always, where does all that stuff come? And then even here in America, right, where the U.S.

Speaker 4 is trying to mine lithium on reservations, where the land, the little land it's left indigenous people to have sovereignty on is where it's now trying to do this very invasive form of mining.

Speaker 4 Kevin, you've written a book. So would you like to, as we wind down here, do you want to expand a little bit about your book?

Speaker 4 So if people are interested in your life and your time as a peacekeeper and an archaeologist?

Speaker 6 Okay, so

Speaker 6 what started off as a lockdown project when COVID hit back in the day, I decided I would write an account of my weird and wonderful life for my, just for my family.

Speaker 6 And once you start writing, as you're no doubt aware, you start remembering. And suddenly I was at something like 100,000 words and I thought, right, there might be a book in this.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 now, obviously, I'm opinionated about my own book, naturally, but it's not just a book about some random military guy waffling on about his military career.

Speaker 6 I've a separate career in mountaineering and a kind of a nearly a separate career in archaeology. So it's it's a mixture of soldiering, mountaineering and archaeology.

Speaker 6 As someone said it to me, it's a bit like Chris Bonington meets Bear Grills, meets Indiana Jones,

Speaker 6 which is kind of a weird and wonderful way to do it. So the title of the book is A Life Less Ordinary, and which this was a recruiting slogo in the 1990s for the Irish Defence Forces.

Speaker 6 Oh, I didn't know that.

Speaker 6 I think I'll send you the link. Yep.
Yep. If not, I'll do it

Speaker 4 immediately.

Speaker 6 So all your viewers can order the book. You can only get it online at the publishers.
It's not on Amazon, unfortunately.

Speaker 4 Yeah, well, I know. Maybe, maybe for the best, given

Speaker 4 the way tech people are playing the U.S. economy.
Yeah, you can get it online. You can get it sent to the United States if you're interested.
I did.

Speaker 4 Thank you so much for your time, Kevin, your insights today. I know we really appreciate it.
Is there anywhere else if people want to follow you online aside from the book?

Speaker 6 The book's probably the best ones, or it's probably the best way to get in contact. I'm on LinkedIn and

Speaker 6 the normal stuff. Just Google Kevin McDonald, and I should, I should come up.
I was resisting for years and years, and eventually, I googled Kevin McDonald. And

Speaker 6 I was surprised at the amount of Kevin McDonald's there is a famous American actor, I think, called Kevin McDonald.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 But I, just as a small parting shot, when I was in Mali,

Speaker 6 I was researching the archaeology of Mali, and the world expert on Malayan archaeology is a professor, naturally, Kevin MacDonald.

Speaker 6 So I sent him an email and I said, by the way, I'm also an archaeologist and my name is Kevin MacDonald. And he goes, my word, I'll be in Bangui or in Bamako

Speaker 6 in two weeks' time. Let's meet up.
So the two Kevin MacDonalds, two archaeologists met up in Bamako to discuss archaeology.

Speaker 4 That's nice when these things come together.

Speaker 6 Another one of my weird and wonderful stories.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks so much for joining us today, Kevin.
It's always nice to hear from you.

Speaker 6 You're more than welcome, James.

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Speaker 3 Hello, welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast podcast about things falling apart and the people trying to put them back together again. I am today's guest host, Margaret Killjoy.

Speaker 3 Today is one of those episodes about people, well, trying to put it back together again, or I guess really an episode about people trying to stop them from making things fall apart.

Speaker 3 Because today I'm going to talk a little bit about the fight against the Mountain Valley natural gas pipeline.

Speaker 3 Last Tuesday, February 25th, 2025, the last criminal trials from the campaign to stop the Mountain Valley Pipeline were held in Parisburg, Virginia.

Speaker 3 As you might have guessed, based on the fact that you've never heard of Parisburg, Virginia, it's a tiny town nestled in the Appalachian Mountains.

Speaker 3 It's also the county seat of Giles County, Virginia, and it, the town, is home to almost 3,000 people. It's in the southwest of the state, right up against West Virginia.

Speaker 3 Culture and geography, of course, both reject things like state lines, though governments are obsessed with them.

Speaker 3 For 10 years, the people of central Appalachia, on both sides of the imaginary line, fought against this destructive pipeline.

Speaker 3 Their campaign tied nonviolent direct action with lawsuits and public pressure campaigns, and they very nearly won.

Speaker 3 It took backdoor dealings at the highest level of power to force the pipeline's construction, with West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin holding 2023's Inflation Reduction Act hostage until President Biden personally guaranteed that the pipeline would be constructed, overriding all of the courts, activists, and locals who'd blocked it along the way.

Speaker 3 Essentially, the ostensible Democrat Joe Manchin said, fine, I'll vote for your climate bill, but only if you fuck over the state that I represent.

Speaker 3 The pipeline, owned by Mountain Valley Pipeline LLC, was supposed to be built in a year. Thanks to the campaign against it, it took six and a half years to build.

Speaker 3 It was intended to cost the company $3 billion.

Speaker 3 It cost them more than twice that, which is not bad for a scrappy movement of mountain people, hippies, and punks. It's not bad for a bunch of grandmas and college kids.

Speaker 3 I'll be covering the full campaign in more detail soon on Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. This podcast is, instead, about the trials.

Speaker 3 12 defendants went before the court that day, 11 of them facing felonies and serious prison time. In the end, none of them were sentenced to time behind bars, I am happy to say.

Speaker 3 A friend of mine invited me down to cover the trials. Twelve defendants all in the same day, all in the same courtroom with the same judge.

Speaker 4 I said yes.

Speaker 3 West Virginia is a bigger state than its own map would indicate because there aren't freeways that run through it, so it takes a very long time to get anywhere.

Speaker 3 So I packed up my van and headed headed down on Monday night.

Speaker 3 That night, sleeping in my van, I had a stress dream about court, where I'd forgotten to take off my knife before going through the metal detectors and spent a very long time talking to various cops about who I was and why I was there before being stuck outside the courthouse in a large crowd of protesters surrounded by a large crowd of cops.

Speaker 3 In that dream, Someone who wasn't on either side stood up to give a speech, but too near an open flame and his clothes caught fire. Us anarchists, again, I'm talking about my dream here.

Speaker 3 Us anarchists rushed to help him while the cops stared on with blank stares. We beat out the flames and held his burned body while the cops stared on with blank stares.

Speaker 3 We screamed for someone to call an ambulance while the cops stared on with blank stares.

Speaker 3 I like when my dreams lend themselves to obvious symbolism, in this moment where the apparatus of the state is content to let all of us burn, whether in the fires of fascism or the fires of climate change.

Speaker 3 But I woke up disturbed nonetheless, with the sun barely over the horizon. I ate a quick breakfast and I drove the rest of the way up to the actual courthouse and the actual trial.

Speaker 3 Fortunately, at the actual thing, no one caught fire. I parked on a nearby street and made my way to the courthouse.
I didn't accidentally bring a pocket knife.

Speaker 3 which is easy for me to do since I usually have three on me because I am a totally normal human. I did, though, bring an audio recorder, which was equally forbidden in the courtroom.

Speaker 3 I went through the metal detector and surrendered my little bag with the Zoom recorder. Later, press came into the room and I tried to get my recorder back, but I was told, that's real media.

Speaker 3 Without a press badge, I don't look much like someone who works for iHeart. I settled into a seat and waited for the proceedings.

Speaker 3 Eco-defendants and eco-defenders both poured into the tiny, dingy courtroom. The ceiling had holes in it, the drywall was sagging.

Speaker 3 Appalachia is an extracted from region, a place from which wealth is gathered, not a place where wealth goes.

Speaker 3 We were reminded repeatedly that the fire code limited occupancy of the room to 89 people, and it sure seemed like they brought in as many cops as they could to limit our numbers.

Speaker 3 Many more supporters waited outside.

Speaker 22 Most of what I did that day was wait in the courtroom.

Speaker 3 because most of the courtroom drama was happening behind closed doors, as the prosecutor, the judge, and the eight or so defense attorneys all argued and fought over the details of plea deals.

Speaker 3 Most of these characters, judge, prosecutor, and lawyers, were quite familiar to the people working with the movement.

Speaker 3 This was the last trial of many throughout the 10-year campaign, which has relied heavily on nonviolent direct action since 2018.

Speaker 3 The prosecutor in particular, a guy named Bobby Lilly, was a well-known figure. Usually, when people say things like, the prosecutor was a clown, they're speaking figuratively.

Speaker 3 But Bobby Lilly, the prosecutor, is a balloon artist in his free time, and his Facebook is full of photos of all of his balloon creations. The rumor is that he clowned his way through law school.

Speaker 3 All right, which look, if I wasn't predisposed to not like this man because he was arguing for the imprisonment of people trying to save all life on Earth, I would kind of think that's cool.

Speaker 3 But it does mean that there was a clown prosecution.

Speaker 3 And some people who were there to support the defendants wore balloon animal hats to mock Bobby Lilly, though they were forced to leave those hats outside as no hats of any kind were allowed in the courtroom.

Speaker 3 Coming in that morning, we expected most of the defendants to take non-cooperating plea deals they'd already agreed to.

Speaker 3 Non-cooperating plea deals are deals in which the defendant refuses to cooperate with the state's investigation of other protesters. Basically, this means these are non-snitching deals.

Speaker 3 A few of the defendants, though, were ready to take their cases to trial. I've decided to largely not use people's names in this reporting.

Speaker 3 Those names are a matter of public record, of course, but we are entering unprecedented times, and I don't see any particular advantage in making their names more public than they already are.

Speaker 4 But do you know what I do want to make public?

Speaker 3 The sweet, sweet deals offered by our advertisers. I love making those public.

Speaker 22 Here they are.

Speaker 4 And we're back.

Speaker 3 The charges against the defendants seem politically motivated. This isn't to say the defendants might not have walked onto pipeline work sites and disrupted activity there.

Speaker 3 There was certainly a coordinated campaign to do just that. But the charges against them were artificially inflated.

Speaker 3 I was talking to a supporter during one of the many long interludes in the proceedings, who explained to me that nearly everyone on trial that day, and a large percentage of all defendants throughout the course of the campaign, were charged with felony misuse of a motor vehicle, aka joyriding.

Speaker 3 To be clear, no one has been accused of hijacking construction equipment and riding it around.

Speaker 3 It's just one of the many charges levied at protesters in order to get their bail denied or inflated to tie everyone up in legal proceedings for longer, and intimidate people into pleading guilty to lesser charges.

Speaker 3 These are similar to the kidnapping charges that a lot of protesters got as well, despite that, well, no one was kidnapped during the course of the campaign, except, of course, by the state.

Speaker 3 Another supporter explained to me, inflated charges has been part of the Mountain Valley Pipeline's legal strategy all along.

Speaker 3 The same as protesters looked to tie the pipeline company up in court and delay construction, MVP's strategy seems to have been to drag out court cases and keep as many individual forest defenders caught up in legal jeopardy as possible.

Speaker 3 Of course, they shouldn't actually have the means to change people's charges, but if the fight against MVP has taught us anything, it's that the state caves to business interests every time.

Speaker 3 Most defendants from the course of the campaign have taken pleas that include suspended sentences, so that they never do jail time time as long as they promise to never try to save the world from fossil fuel infrastructure.

Speaker 3 It seems like MVP wants each person who catches charges to be out of the fight. But fortunately, Frontline's work is only a portion of the work involved in defending the earth.

Speaker 3 When someone told me that this was MVP's strategy to catch everyone up on charges, I wasn't really skeptical. because it made sense.
But I still had that confirmed for me in the courtroom.

Speaker 3 You see, a few lawyers or other legal representatives of MVP were present in the courtroom that day, standing at the back of the room, seemingly eavesdropping on the courtroom chatter.

Speaker 3 Word on the street was that part of their goal was to gather information for the ongoing civil litigation happening against environmentalists.

Speaker 3 But eavesdropping goes both ways, and one supporter I talked to overheard them talking to each other about how they wish they could drag these cases out even longer.

Speaker 3 Once court began, defendants went up one by one before the judge. Most entered pleas of not guilty with stipulation.

Speaker 3 This is, in essence, a way to accept a plea agreement without actually accepting guilt.

Speaker 3 So each person went up, pleaded not guilty with stipulation, and then was found guilty by the judge on their lesser charges. The process took three to six minutes per defendant.

Speaker 4 I tracked it.

Speaker 3 The defendants were there for arrests stemming from actions that happened between October 2023 and March 2024, from three different actions, all on nearby Peters Mountain, a mountain which sits on the horizon of Parisburg, Virginia, and which defies the border between Virginia and West Virginia.

Speaker 3 Most of the action from the campaign happened on either Peters Mountain or another mountain in another county, Poor Mountain.

Speaker 3 One action in October 2023, like I said, court has been dragged out for a very long time, was an action in which one person locked themselves to an excavator, while others were there in support.

Speaker 3 The supporters of the action were facing felonies, too. Some of them, a while back, were re-arrested at their own arraignments, given additional charges, and put into jail for days.

Speaker 3 It's not hard to imagine why the defendants were nervous in the courtroom that day.

Speaker 3 Even though most of them had already sorted out their plea agreements ahead of time, The state is fickle, condescending, and unpredictable.

Speaker 3 One of the defendants that I talked to told me about their own case.

Speaker 3 The evidence supporting the charges against pretty much everyone was weak, but the evidence supporting the charges against this particular person were particularly weak.

Speaker 3 The state kept offering this person plea deals before anyone else. Will you be offering the same deal to my co-defendants? The defendant kept asking.
The state kept saying no.

Speaker 3 So the defendant kept refusing the deal. That defendant came to court fully expecting to stand trial rather than take a better deal than what their co-defendants were getting.

Speaker 3 The big story of the day actually revolves around that particular point.

Speaker 3 At least one of the defendants who came prepared to stand trial last Tuesday wound up being offered much more generous plea agreements at the last minute because the state knew its case against them was flimsy.

Speaker 3 Those who accepted non-cooperating plea deals were hit with suspended sentences, community service, and restitution.

Speaker 3 The details differed from case to case, but in general, people were given a year in prison hanging over their heads if they're caught breaking the law in the next year and have to spend between 50 and 100 hours doing manual labor for Giles County, Virginia.

Speaker 3 I've been told this can range from something benign, like painting murals, to something intentionally humiliating, like cleaning the toilets at the police station.

Speaker 3 The single biggest issue of contention was restitution. The defendants are being ordered to pay for the overtime costs associated with arresting them.

Speaker 3 One defendant, who was, I believe, arrested at a Moms Against the Pipelines action, a woman who simply wants her children to grow up in a world with a habitable ecosystem, was in court last Tuesday to contest the restitution payments.

Speaker 3 This is, as I understand it, the only issue that was not fully resolved that day. The case the defense made was one that I found convincing, although, of course, I have a bias in that direction.

Speaker 3 Essentially, The defense's case was that people are not legally on the hook for the investigation of their own crime.

Speaker 3 That it would set a very dangerous precedent to have people have to pay for the cops' time to arrest them.

Speaker 3 The prosecutor's argument was, and I rudely paraphrase here, yeah, but fuck these people in particular.

Speaker 3 That because there was a campaign against the MVP, their crimes ought to be treated differently, and the same standard of the rule of law should not apply to them.

Speaker 3 Again, I'm paraphrasing, but that really was the takeaway that I seemed to get. The judge said he would need to consider the case law on the matter and would not rule on it that day.

Speaker 3 But you know what he would have ruled on if he was the judge of this podcast? He would have ruled that it is time for advertising.

Speaker 4 And we're back.

Speaker 3 The only case that actually went to trial, as I understand it, was for the only misdemeanor case of of the day.

Speaker 3 A protester who was accused and convicted later at the end of the trial of spending a couple days living inside a length of pipe to prevent it from being buried in the earth.

Speaker 3 The full incompetence of the police was on display, from the state trooper who didn't know what the word diameter meant when asked to describe the pipeline in question, to the police who admitted that they didn't actually bother watching the entrance to the pipe.

Speaker 3 So they didn't actually see the protester when they emerged from the pipe. In court, the cops said the protester came up to them to turn themselves in and said, quote, well, you're lucky I'm honest.

Speaker 3 A large part of the defense's case was that the defendant had been denied the right to a speedy trial, which seems true to me.

Speaker 3 Misdemeanors in particular are supposed to move through the court system quickly and not drag on for a year.

Speaker 3 Because, again, it seems quite likely that MVP has been working from the start to drag on court cases as long as possible.

Speaker 3 All the while the trial went on, supporters outside had a table set up in the parking lot with homemade food, a staple of this movement as far as I can tell.

Speaker 3 The connections between the frontlines and their supporters built a very strong movement indeed.

Speaker 3 After the trial, an older local man gave a heartfelt thank you to everyone who had put their bodies on the line to protect the mountains he loves, and I went around and talked to people, feeling a bit odd to be there as a stranger to the movement and as a journalist.

Speaker 3 Blocking pipeline construction through nonviolent direct action is simple in principle, but complicated in the details.

Speaker 3 The core of it is that you leverage your own safety in order to prevent construction crews from working. Since your own safety is what you're gambling with, it's, well, not safe.

Speaker 3 The idea is you put your own body on the line. In 1998, for example, an Earth-First activist named David Chain died when a logger dropped a tree on him and killed him.

Speaker 3 And despite ample evidence that the logger in question had been aware of the protesters and had been threatening them, no charges were pressed against him.

Speaker 3 In 2003, an American anarchist peace worker named Rachel Corey was killed in the Gaza Strip when she stood in front of an Israeli bulldozer trying to stop the bulldozer from demolishing a Palestinian home.

Speaker 3 Even when you aren't murdered for doing it, the work itself is dangerous too.

Speaker 3 Shortly before I joined my first forest defense campaign in the Pacific Northwest, an activist named Hoarhound had just fallen to her death from a tree sit, and her absence was a tangible presence in every meeting and every forest defense camp for years after.

Speaker 3 So I don't feel like I'm speaking hyperbolically when I say that in that courtroom were some of the bravest people I've ever met who risked their lives to stop a clear and present threat against it.

Speaker 3 And again, I genuinely believe this is not hyperbolic to say. clear and present threat against all life on earth.
Climate change could very easily destroy every ecosystem on the planet.

Speaker 3 This fight is bigger than Appalachia.

Speaker 3 These forest defenders at this last trial knew that they would likely face felonies were they arrested, and they knew that people have died doing this work before them.

Speaker 3 And I don't want to speak to everyone involved's gender identity, but it seems likely that some of them were trans as well, and thus risking spending prison time in the wrong prisons, which is a particularly dangerous position to be in.

Speaker 3 I don't say this to try to scare people out of joining movements like this. I can name people who have died in nonviolent direct action campaigns, and occasionally people have served real jail time.

Speaker 3 But I've met thousands and thousands more who have saved wild places, who have built lifelong friendships, and who have proven to themselves that they are who they hoped they would be.

Speaker 3 I want to end this by reading two statements. One was written by one of the defendants.
and was posted onto the Appalachians Against Pipeline's Facebook page on March 3rd.

Speaker 3 You can read the full statement over there if you'd like.

Speaker 4 Quote,

Speaker 3 Today we proved that co-defendant solidarity works. We were able to see how different strategies against a stacked system play out.

Speaker 3 It is in the court's best interest for us to take a deal out of fear of trial, but today we showed that they are just as afraid of an uncertain outcome, and we can use that to our advantage when we work together.

Speaker 3 The people who went to trial or pushed it to the brink got objectively better outcomes than those who took deals ahead of time.

Speaker 3 And those those who took deals often had to struggle with changing conditions at trial, but still felt obligated to comply.

Speaker 3 I and another defendant held out, in part out of principle for people who had not been offered deals, and in part to say, fuck you, Bobby Lilly, our prosecutor, who is a literal clown.

Speaker 3 My co-defendant and I went to bat for another who was not offered a deal. At first, my co-defendant was offered a deal, a rather nice one at that.
But my friend said no. The clown blinked.

Speaker 3 My friend basically went to trial. Technically, they took a deal, but they basically started a trial.
Prosecution made a motion to amend charges, but abruptly, the clown and his cop buddy left.

Speaker 3 They ran. They had no evidence.
Another deal, which was even better, was offered, and this time, I got one too. For me, it was good, and in agreement, we took our deals.

Speaker 3 The one other person was offered an okay deal, but opted to go to trial with eyes open at the court's incompetence and crushed it. Little Bobby Lily looked even more like a clown.

Speaker 3 Every deal that was offered only got better, especially on the day of the trial. You don't have to accept the first deal, or the second, or the third, or the fourth.

Speaker 3 And when they try to pit us against each other, it is because they know we are stronger together. Initially, we were charged with conspiracy.

Speaker 3 The real conspiracy is between prosecutors and the judges, between the cops and the corporations.

Speaker 3 It is the conspiracy between your landlord and your boss to keep you exhausted and hungry, unable to fight back.

Speaker 3 It is the dictatorship of the billionaires to keep us bound to their world where they make and break their own rules.

Speaker 3 This is bigger than a 42-inch wide, 303-mile long, ticking time bomb running through Appalachia.

Speaker 3 It is the fact that our lives are bought and sold by the large landowning class who were able to ram this project through under Joe Biden despite the harm it'll cause, because it will make them money as the world burns.

Speaker 3 Then here's another statement from the person who sat inside the pipe, and the statement is from last year. Quote, winning looks so much bigger than just stopping this pipeline.

Speaker 3 It's a win through the community folks continue to build. It is a win because of the insane amount of skills that people have gathered and shared.

Speaker 3 It's a win because whether or not this pipeline ever has gas running through it, the legacy of resistance in Appalachia still lives.

Speaker 3 Extractive industry knows that they can't fuck with the communities here without going through hell, and we better not let them forget that.

Speaker 3 Many times in my life, I have felt consumed by grief, grief for all the places this pipeline has destroyed, for communities who continue to be ravaged by the state and industry, for the senseless violence committed against people and land every day, for friends and strangers forced into cages.

Speaker 3 But what keeps me moving is knowing that I feel such grief only because I have such deep hope and love for what could be and what we have the power to create.

Speaker 3 Find or facilitate radical community wherever you call home. Think about the things you are willing to sacrifice for people near and far.

Speaker 3 Dream of worlds that feel out of reach because I bet they aren't as far away as it may seem. That's the end of the quote.
And so, yeah.

Speaker 3 Though the criminal trials are over, the civil legal fight rages on. MVP is attempting to wield civil courts to silence its opposition.

Speaker 3 And if you want to help support that fight, which continues, you can donate to Appalachian Legal Defense Fund, which you can find probably by just searching for it.

Speaker 3 But you can also find it by going to bit.ly

Speaker 4 slash APP

Speaker 3 legal defense. All one word, no dashes.

Speaker 3 Anyway, that's it for the episode.

Speaker 4 I'll talk to you soon.

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Speaker 41 This is Aaron Andrews from Calm Down with Erin and Carissa.

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Speaker 4 Hello and welcome to the podcast. It's me, James, today.
We have a very special episode in which everyone is a doctor.

Speaker 4 I will be leading the discussion, of course, as Doctor of Modern European History, but I'm joined today by Venktesh Ramnath, who is a practicing pulmonologist, a professor at UC San Diego Health, a medical director of several ITUs in rural and urban settings, and also the author of the substack, Be a Health Architect.

Speaker 4 Welcome to the show, Venktes. Thanks for joining us.

Speaker 2 Great to be here.

Speaker 4 I'm also joined by Dr. Cave Hoda, a gastroenterologist and the host of our favorite medical podcast, The House of Pod.

Speaker 24 Of the many you listen to, I'm sure.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'm what they might call a super user in the medical podcast space.

Speaker 24 You would listen to more than me.

Speaker 4 Most importantly, Cave, of course, our friend. That's right.
Our resident doctor with a useful doctorate. So what we want to talk about today is

Speaker 4 Medicare and specifically some of the cuts to Medicare. More broadly,

Speaker 4 the

Speaker 4 I don't know really how to put this, challenges

Speaker 4 for people working in healthcare in the Trump administration, right?

Speaker 4 We addressed specifically gender affirming care in a previous episode but it doesn't start and end there right that might be the thing that sort of like the cultural wars have been focusing on recently but I want to talk more broadly about the challenges facing healthcare so first of all would one of you care to explain Medicare for people who are not familiar right some some listeners might not be living in the United States or they might just not have encountered this yet in their life so could one of you explain what this particular sort of of type of health insurance is and how it's maybe more vulnerable than other types to federal government changes?

Speaker 2 I could take a stab at it. I'm not a health policy wonk, but I am a physician that has to deal with Medicare all the time.

Speaker 2 So Medicare, in sort of general terms, is a type of health insurance that is provided by the federal government.

Speaker 2 It is almost exclusively for individuals above the age of 65 as it dates back to the 1960s with Lyndon Johnson's Great Society program.

Speaker 2 And so, since that time, there has been this blanket coverage for any individuals above that age, such that all their medical services or products, you know, whatever they need for their health care is actually covered by the government.

Speaker 2 This is the federal government. Now, the interesting thing about Medicare is that there are different parts to it.

Speaker 2 There's Part A, which is primarily for some essential services and includes hospital care. There's Part B, which includes whatever physicians' fees go into that health care.

Speaker 2 And then there's Part D, which relates to pharmaceutical prices, so your drug costs.

Speaker 2 It's not comprehensive in the sense that there's always something more that individuals need, but Medicare, for all intents and purposes, is the sort of standard, and it should cover.

Speaker 2 most of an individual's needs. Now, that said, the commercial payers, that is the other insurance companies that are not federally government sponsored, take their lead from Medicare.

Speaker 2 So a lot of the different payment rates or coverages and services, they all look to what the centers of Medicare and Medicaid services dictate as far as what is an acceptable reimbursement rate, what are the rules around what should be covered and what should not.

Speaker 2 So that's why Medicare is such an important entity for the United States.

Speaker 24 I'll add to that, they set the lead of importance here too, because if we're talking about telemedicine, telehealth, how important that is to Medicare patients, to everyone in the country at this point, then if they are to cut it, if that happens, as I think we're probably going to discuss, if that goes away, then the other private insurance companies are going to follow.

Speaker 24 That's right. It could be across the board changes led by these changes in Medicare.

Speaker 4 Yeah. So let's talk about those changes then.

Speaker 4 As you mentioned, right, there's this telemedicine, it's a waiver, right, that has allowed telemedicine to be funded through this for the last five years, I suppose.

Speaker 4 It's going to expire by the end of this month, which is March 2025, if you're listening later. Explain why telemedicine has been such a positive step

Speaker 4 in healthcare since, if you could, since 2020, and then what we're facing if it's no longer funded federally.

Speaker 24 May I'll start this one, but Ventesh, definitely want you to weigh in on it as well.

Speaker 24 Just to give a little background, over the past five years, it's grown quite a bit, and it's gone from being kind of this emergency stop gap to a real cornerstone of what we consider modern healthcare.

Speaker 24 And now it's exceedingly common, like over 75% of hospitals in the U.S. connect at a distance via video conference or some technology to patients.
And it's been popular on both sides.

Speaker 24 It's been popular on both sides of the aisle. When it first was done, as you mentioned, during COVID, when

Speaker 24 they said, okay, we're going to peel back some of the restrictions on Medicare coverage for these telehealth things.

Speaker 24 It was considered like a victory, like one of the few good things to come out of COVID.

Speaker 24 Both sides liked it. It was popular amongst patients.
It was popular popular amongst medical providers. It was good for Republicans and Democrats alike.

Speaker 24 And as you mentioned, it's been kept going through being put in some bill or another since it was initially put in in, I think, as they called it in 2020.

Speaker 24 And it's been put in one bill or another to go with the funding. But then came this last December when Congress was going through their spending.

Speaker 24 It was only given this three-month reprieve, which is going to be up, as you mentioned, at the end of this month. And if it goes away, there's a lot of factors.
We'll go into a lot of them.

Speaker 24 But there's a lot of people, older patients, immunocompromised patients who don't want to come into office, people with disabilities, people who can't get around that well, people in rural areas, which is, you know, really how it started, people who are going to be hurt all across this country.

Speaker 24 And at this point, the majority of people have had at least one experience or more in a year with telemedicine. It's become a part of a lot of people's lives.

Speaker 24 And if it goes away, you know, there's still going to be health care as it is.

Speaker 24 I mean, it doesn't mean health care is going away, but it is going to put a tremendous burden on patients and hospitals, for that matter, across the country.

Speaker 2 Yeah, let me add to that. So,

Speaker 2 you know, telemedicine has been around for a very long time, at least technically speaking, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, you can go back to the 1970s, even when you talk about the intensive care unit, which is where the sickest people in the hospital are. There are studies that come out of the 1970s.

Speaker 2 However, ever since people have had iPhones and been on Airbnb and everything else since 2007, that inflection point actually had a wave of opportunity that washed right into medicine.

Speaker 2 And as Cave is saying, you know, we have such a fragmented healthcare system that has, you know, folks living in rural areas, suburban areas, and urban areas, all of whom are at the mercy of what specialists may be there contracted at any given time for any given specialty.

Speaker 2 Now, telemedicine, as it's gotten more and more popular, has kind of leveled the playing field.

Speaker 2 I mean, you can be in a rural place like where I'm sitting right now on the U.S.-Mexico border, or you can be in New York City.

Speaker 2 you know, one of the densest populations, but you may not have access to specialty expertise without telemedicine. With telemedicine, you can now have access.
And I've I've seen patients love it.

Speaker 2 You can deal with the sickest of the sick, like I said, intensive care units, but you can also have outpatient experiences. And we've seen a number of different

Speaker 2 commercial opportunities that have leveraged that. But the point is that as we're hearing on this, it's become sort of a standard operating procedure for how we deliver healthcare.

Speaker 2 And if you just pull the rug out from that, there can be some

Speaker 2 unintended consequences to that that are not insignificant.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And like, it makes a lot of sense for a lot of people, right? Like, if I think about my own experience with it, I was traveling recently and got COVID like a couple of months ago.

Speaker 4 And there was no need for me to go to a clinic and be around other people, right? I just needed to contact my doctor and get some prescriptions and check in.

Speaker 4 And like, it was so much better that I could do it in my pajamas from a bed rather than like having to get out. And I'm lucky I have access to a car.
I can drive to a doctor's surgery.

Speaker 4 It's not that far away. I have a job that accommodates my schedule.
But there are a million reasons why it might be very beneficial to people.

Speaker 4 So let's talk about, you mentioned this before, but we have commercial insurers and like people might think that this is limited to older folks or it doesn't affect them or it's something that only impacts people who have Medicare.

Speaker 4 But as you said, Medicare kind of sets the standard for what is covered and what isn't covered, right? So can you explain how this might end up resulting in it in just a massive, like a cliff?

Speaker 4 I've seen it described as a telehealth cliff.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so basically, the

Speaker 2 sort of this convoluted way that we pay for services is it looks to one standard, even though some may argue, how did that standard come about?

Speaker 2 But regardless of that, Medicare is the central authority that basically tells everyone, this is what we should be doing, and this is how much we should be paying for it.

Speaker 2 Now, the commercial insurers can decide to exceed that if they wish. If they say have an employer whose employees they want to have a special contract with, that's fine.
That's not restricted.

Speaker 2 But the bottom of what is considered a reimbursable amount is really set by Medicare. And so they move the bottom.

Speaker 2 And so if you drop the bottom, you can pretty much well assure it in this, you know, in a capitalist sort of mentality that the cost should go down, right? I mean, why should you pay more?

Speaker 2 for something that you don't need to, right? And

Speaker 2 we see that every year, okay? Every year there's new technology, but the slightly older technology, which is again covered by Medicare, they move those reimbursements down.

Speaker 2 So, whether it's a sleep study, you know, for someone with obstructive sleep apnea or difficulty sleeping at night, or it's some ophthalmology technology, or it's some ultrasound machine.

Speaker 2 It doesn't really matter what it is. Medicare is always trying to minimize costs, which is understandable.

Speaker 2 They want to make it cost-effective, but they are setting the lead so everyone will follow what they do. That's kind of the way that our system is sort of set up.
Yeah.

Speaker 24 You know, I might just add to that that aside from all the things we mentioned about it, how, you know, it helps people in rural areas, people with difficulty getting places, just really busy schedules.

Speaker 24 It also, you know, helps free up hospital beds, helps prevent emergency rooms from being overwhelmed. It leads to faster testing.
It leads to a higher number of people that we can see.

Speaker 24 And in terms of its quality, we know it works well. And about 90% of cases of telemedicine to get the same outcomes if the patient was there in clinic.
And that 10% that's not.

Speaker 24 It's not clear that they're getting inferior care in most of those cases. So it's an effective treatment.
And

Speaker 24 you could make an argument that it is cost effective in some ways too. particularly clearly for like things like dermatology, pediatrics.
These are things where it's clearly cost effective to have it.

Speaker 24 But even beyond that, it's not even necessarily, I think, a strong argument that we'll be losing money from it and that cutting it would help us in the long run.

Speaker 24 I feel like if we're being smart about how to manage American health care systems and how to keep it afloat, telemedicine is going to be an important part of that going forward.

Speaker 2 I do want to add something here, and I do want to be careful about the term because telemedicine and telehealth are not only sort of a catch-all, but they're sort of used interchangeably, right?

Speaker 2 And just like anything, you have to be specific about the term. So I think what we're talking about

Speaker 2 on this podcast is telemedicine in terms of a two-way audio-visual interface where you can have a direct face-to-face consultation or interaction with a practicing practitioner.

Speaker 2 Usually that's going to be a physician, but it may be a nurse practitioner or other physician extender, we call them.

Speaker 2 But But just to be clear, you know, telemedicine also extends to other types of devices like wearables, those things that there are either trackers that you can wear as your Fitbit or a sleep device that you can wear around.

Speaker 2 Those kinds of things are kind of put into the telemedicine bucket. And it's not clear to me, at least, how that is going to change.

Speaker 2 I think April 1st is when the face-to-face coverage from a professional fee standpoint, that is slated to end because they did liberalize it during the COVID pandemic and it's been extended, I think, another year around that.

Speaker 2 And that will definitely change the dynamic here. But it's not clear how much of it extends to other types of remote physiologic monitoring services and products.

Speaker 4 Right. Yeah.
So something like a glucose monitor or like some other, yeah, which could be catastrophic for people, right? If they don't get those, those funded. Right.

Speaker 4 We're going to take a little break for advertisements here. Maybe you'll get an advertisement for a glucose monitor or even insulin.
Could only hope. Yeah,

Speaker 4 we can.

Speaker 4 I'm glad they're taking some of that money that they've made me bleed out of my wallet over the years and returning it to me in the form of podcast advertisements.

Speaker 4 All right, we're back. Let's talk more broadly about, I guess, the changes in the legislative environment for healthcare might be a good way to put it.

Speaker 4 Like, Venkatesh, you wrote an excellent op-ed recently where you discussed

Speaker 4 you were one of the many recipients of the Tell Me Five Useful Things You Did at Work This Week email.

Speaker 4 I thought you wrote like a really good piece about

Speaker 4 the varied and critical work that you do.

Speaker 4 Can you talk about like what is the feeling among healthcare professionals, physicians, whoever you'd sort of like to speak as,

Speaker 4 going into four years of possibly vastly reduced government spending and

Speaker 4 a sort of bizarre and haphazard cutting of the federal bureaucracy that we're seeing?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a tough time, certainly. And coming out of the pandemic, this is not what really anybody expected.
But, you know, the stresses have been mounting for quite a while, right?

Speaker 2 Healthcare professionals are seeing and feeling more stress at work, whether it's

Speaker 2 the demands of the job, meaning that there are fewer resources to spend on a heightened number of patients with increasingly complex diseases, or even just the questions that we are getting from patients.

Speaker 2 A lot of patients now are asking me really financial questions. I mean, literally the other day, I had a woman who was unfortunately having septic shock and was faced with having to amputate her leg.

Speaker 2 And I was speaking with her husband because she was becoming more and more delirious.

Speaker 2 And he was just asking me about, well, I'm going to have to sell my house in order to fund what might come down the pike as far as being at home with services. And

Speaker 2 I was trying to kind of get an understanding of. how he viewed his wife actually going through the thing that we're watching in the moment.

Speaker 2 but it is, it's a preoccupation that has taken up a lot of space in the room. And it's now coming on to physicians to sort of navigate at least some questions and answer those questions around it.

Speaker 2 So that's a long way of saying that, you know, physicians and nurses and other healthcare professionals are feeling more and more stress in a system that's just buckling, right?

Speaker 2 And the last thing anybody needs is to be having to do more without really a clear understanding of the the purpose around it, right? And we are all for cost-effectiveness. We want that to work.

Speaker 2 We also want to provide care irrespective of someone's religious, political, or other beliefs.

Speaker 2 And yet, you know, we have to work within a system that we kind of are not really understanding how they're approaching this issue. Are they with us or against us or somewhere in between?

Speaker 2 It's sort of a moving target. And so I think

Speaker 2 that's what's kind of sandwiched a lot of the healthcare professionals. And we don't really know where to turn for some of the answers that we ourselves are looking for.

Speaker 24 I would add also, you know, we're seeing this active dismantling of the U.S. healthcare infrastructure.
And our friends in the academic world in particular, it's a very stressful time for them.

Speaker 24 Who knows if their studies are going to go through? Who knows if they're going to get their funding?

Speaker 24 Who knows what's going to stay, what's going to go in the next couple of years. There's a lot of concern over that, obviously.

Speaker 24 But even in the medical world outside of the academic centers, I know a lot of doctors right now are concerned.

Speaker 24 And they're concerned about what's going to happen to the state of our scientific community that helps us with new advancements in medical technology in the coming years.

Speaker 24 And it seems like, as Ventesha was alluding to, we're dismantling all our ability to follow, to study, to really closely track infectious disease in a time that is exceedingly dangerous across the world with rising disease, tuberculosis in this country, measles in this country.

Speaker 24 In Uganda, there's Ebola again.

Speaker 24 There's threats all over the world. And this is one of the worst times I could think of to be in this moment of austerity.
And particularly because so much of it seems unclear to us why.

Speaker 24 Why these things are being done.

Speaker 24 Is it all because of this ridiculous gender ideology? Do they actually think they're saving money with some of these things? It's a very unclear time.

Speaker 24 And of course, there are a lot of people in the medical world, doctors included, that are conservative or Republican voters.

Speaker 24 Getting into conversations with them about this is sort of a tough thing to do

Speaker 24 because, like Feng Tesh mentioned, they, like a lot of us, want to make sure we're doing this in a cost-effective manner.

Speaker 24 Something we talk about and we have been talking about in medicine for a long time, particularly academic medicine, interestingly enough, which is really on the cutting board.

Speaker 24 It's academic medicine that usually talks about, you know, trying to be cost effective. What tests are we going to order? What labs do we need to get?

Speaker 24 How are we doing this in the most cost effective way? These are important things that are discussed.

Speaker 24 And across the political spectrum in medicine, I think there is some concern, even amongst some of the more right-leaning doctors. But again, it's hard because they've gone this far down the road.

Speaker 24 It's hard to know, you know, when they're going to pull back, what's the line in the sand for them about what is maybe too far for this administration.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And certainly like an area where we're seeing that right now is in like public health, right?

Speaker 4 We don't really know, like, I'm going to Texas next week where there's currently a measles outbreak. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Things that we didn't think that we might be seeing in this country again, we're seeing again. And like, as you say, it's coming at a time when, like, not just funding is

Speaker 4 unstable, but also like the, I guess, like, the basics of science have been somewhat politicized to a degree.

Speaker 4 And like people, I don't know if that's something you see in your practice, but like certainly like I was talking to a doctor friend who said half their clients are now like declining vaccinations as I was there to get

Speaker 4 every disease that I could get. I have a lot of travel vaccinations, so I'm always getting new and exciting vaccinations.

Speaker 4 I'm making up for some of the gap, I guess. But

Speaker 4 it's a really challenging time, right? From that perspective as well, like the culture culture around it.

Speaker 24 Yeah, that's right. I mean, even here in the San Francisco Bay Area, you know, I've seen more vaccine hesitation than I remember ever seeing before in the past.

Speaker 2 It's sort of a vexing question because I think some of this is, let's be clear, some of this is on our messaging. You know, as healthcare professionals, I mean, there are more and more articles.

Speaker 2 In fact, there was a Wall Street Journal piece a couple of weeks ago that was saying how patients, you know, are increasingly not trusting their doctors.

Speaker 2 And there are data to say that we don't communicate very well. So there is that, and that's on us.

Speaker 2 And another op-ed piece in the Boston Globe by Ashish Jha did a mea culpa around some of the things that public health, we did wrong.

Speaker 2 We got it wrong in COVID, where we didn't

Speaker 2 deal with some of the doubts and lack of evidentiary base for masking and some of these other things that basically hurt us in the end. So there's definitely that.
However,

Speaker 2 restoring the trust in healthcare professionals is sort of like a basic step to anyone getting their healthcare. I mean, I think people still go to their doctors.

Speaker 2 Most people still trust their doctor to some degree. And I think that that's at least a bright spot in where we are, because when we've lost that, I think we're really in trouble.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's slipping. But I think that there is a way to restore that trust.
But

Speaker 2 it just starts with a conversation.

Speaker 2 If someone has a vaccine hesitancy or they don't understand what's going on, that's the opportunity to open the doors to a dialogue. And I think

Speaker 2 maybe that's the starting point for any of this. We all want cost-effectiveness.
We all want

Speaker 2 transparency. We also want to have choices that make sense to us, but let's not make it an adversarial confrontation.
And I think that that goes for both sides.

Speaker 24 I would add, though, I agree with you on pretty much all of that. I agree that we need to have those conversations, even if they're difficult.

Speaker 24 We need to be able to look back objectively about things that worked and didn't work.

Speaker 24 But a lot of these sort of meaculpas that have come out about like, you know, this is what we went wrong and why we lost trust. If I'm being honest, including that one.

Speaker 24 from Ashish Jad has a lot of, in my opinion, pick-me energy. A lot of people who are trying to appeal to the incoming administration and be like, hey, look, I'm cool too.

Speaker 24 I'm not always about vaccines. And to me, that's just as bad too.
And I do think we need to have an honest conversation. And I do think we need to be clear about how we do science.

Speaker 24 Something we need to be able to explain, and you're absolutely right, which we didn't do very well, is, look, we are working with the information we have at hand. We're doing everything we can.

Speaker 24 This information may change. And when it changes, our recommendations are going to change too.
And that is tough.

Speaker 24 that is a tough message to get across because people don't like nuance like that people don't like the uncertainty of that people want to know yes or no absolutely and sometimes it's it's hard it's hard to find good communicators in science to do that so but that you're exactly right is incumbent upon us as doctors who have a sub stack like yours have a podcast like mine who are academics who have a reach to students and beyond to to communicate these things and even though it would be awesome if for the next four years my podcast was just about farts and poop, I know I have to do a lot of this stuff because I know how important this is now more than ever.

Speaker 24 So I totally agree. It's going to start with conversations.

Speaker 4 I think there's a big difference between

Speaker 4 this is the information we have available and we're doing our best with it. And when we get new information, we'll do something different if that's what that information points to.

Speaker 4 And these people are acting out of malice malice to deprive you of your rights or you know to do which is sometimes what's been suggested by some people and like yeah I think a good way to defeat that as you say is communicating around it it is very sad that like when I was doing the research for my PhD dissertation I wrote about well first I wrote about violence in the anarchist builders union for my master's and then I wrote about public health and popular sport in the 1930s in Barcelona.

Speaker 4 And a lot of what you saw anarchists doing in Barcelona in the 1930s was talking to people about tuberculosis, educating people about tuberculosis, and explaining what tuberculosis was and where it came from.

Speaker 4 And like, that was in 1931.

Speaker 4 How far we've come, baby. Wow.
Wow. Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 4 There were some other things from the 1930s, which have also made an unwelcome return. Tuberculosis is not the only one.
There's also the Nazi salute in large public gatherings in the United States,

Speaker 4 which,

Speaker 4 yeah, I don't know. Anarchists had answers for them both in the 1930s, and they're the same answers that apply now.

Speaker 4 I think

Speaker 4 people, like, people will be distressed by this, right?

Speaker 4 Like, a lot of people of my age and younger, I guess it's folks a bit younger than me for a larger part, like the pandemic was a life-defining event for a lot of younger folks, right?

Speaker 4 And it was a scary thing. It still is a scary thing.
Like getting COVID still really sucks. And I know people who have long COVID, and the thought of that is petrifying to me.

Speaker 4 People will be genuinely anxious now, right?

Speaker 4 At this potential dismantling of the public health apparatus, like a rise in vaccine hesitancy, less funding for research, such that if we enter another pandemic with some

Speaker 4 novel infectious disease, we won't be able to respond as fast, right?

Speaker 4 Like the response to covid for the criticisms of it like the speed with which we had vaccines was amazing some of that came from like bankteshi college at ucsd actually or at like salk i guess which is next door um with free parking which is nice

Speaker 4 so like

Speaker 4 What would you say to people? Because this is a thing I see more and more among folks who, you know, who are friends of mine, right? It's like real worry about infectious disease, real concern about

Speaker 4 new variants of COVID or about, you know, the bird flu is one, right? With these other infective diseases, I saw 50 people have died of as yet unexplained disease in Congo recently.

Speaker 4 What would you say to those people? Because their concerns are somewhat legitimate, right?

Speaker 4 Like if we go into another pandemic, we're not going to be anywhere near as effective as we were in 2020 because of all these combination of reasons we've discussed.

Speaker 2 That's a hard question to answer. I would say, let me back up.
You know, I think that the COVID pandemic,

Speaker 2 yes, there are a lot of things that went well. The vaccine development was phenomenal.
I mean, that was revolutionary. I mean, who would have expected that to happen?

Speaker 2 However, it also just revealed how shattered our public health system really is in terms of messaging, even detection, spreading information, even the vaccine distribution was completely chaotic, right?

Speaker 2 So I don't want to say that the public health response during COVID was some sort of paragon to be emulated or replicated, right? So that said, though, absolutely.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, how are we going to handle a new era of this what-if, you know, scenario where we don't know what virus is coming next?

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm seeing these days, I'm even seeing viruses that never caused the kind of respiratory failure in the past.

Speaker 2 They're doing it now, whether it's RSV, the respiratory sensational virus, or even non-COVID coronavirus, which should just give you a cold, the sniffles, and yet it's causing devastating pneumonias.

Speaker 2 So we're in a new era and antibiotic resistance is not getting any less

Speaker 2 problematic.

Speaker 2 So what do we do in this era? Well, I think awareness is the first thing.

Speaker 2 Awareness around, yes, I mean, these diseases are transmitted from person to person.

Speaker 2 We all know somebody who doesn't want to take a vaccine. I mean, I don't think that's a surprise to say.
We know of somebody or directly or maybe one degree of separation, right?

Speaker 2 And I think you need to have those community conversations. You need to have one-on-one conversations.

Speaker 2 Yes, it's going to be uncomfortable, but we got to talk about it and talk to your healthcare provider about it. I mean, yes, you can look up stuff on TikTok.
Yes, you can look up stuff on Google or

Speaker 2 you name your online resource, but you want to have a person that can actually understand from years of

Speaker 2 living and breathing this stuff, and also who listens to you as a human being in the same community or somewhere nearabouts, right?

Speaker 2 To put together what the science says in some sort of meaningful way to you

Speaker 2 and not some anonymous

Speaker 2 resource that may or may not have all the, you know, all the data at their fingertips. You know, so I guess it still goes back to how does anyone find reliable information?

Speaker 2 Where do you go when you've got questions? Most people want a human being who's lived and breathed with experience to help them navigate.

Speaker 2 I certainly see that not just as a doctor, but as a friend, as a family member, I'm constantly, you know, they're asking me these things.

Speaker 2 And I would suggest that, you know, your audience may have connections both personally, but also professionally to those folks that can help them navigate.

Speaker 24 You know, and to answer your question from my perspective is a challenge

Speaker 24 because I think people should be concerned.

Speaker 24 In fact, I just did a two-parter with one of the world's best virologists talking about the, you know, possible bird flu pandemic that could arise and all the threats that are out there.

Speaker 24 And so I do think there are some really significant and serious risks to be worried about. However, I'm never going to say there's nothing that can be done about it.

Speaker 24 There's plenty that can still be done about it. I still maintain hope.
in the medical community for what we're able to do and what we're able to accomplish.

Speaker 24 And to echo what I think both of you guys have said or would at least agree with, there's a lot of changes that we can make locally amongst our small sphere of influence and then growing out from there in terms of getting vaccinated, in terms of wearing masks when needed, or at least looking at the data with an open mind and sharing good resources.

Speaker 24 Because one thing that the younger population is good about and what some of these people you're mentioning, James, is they're good at detecting bullshit online.

Speaker 24 And that's a skill that needs to be honed for medical literacy as well. And I'm hopeful that that's going to continue to improve.

Speaker 24 Maybe stupid optimism, but I do believe the younger generation is going to continue to be better at that than the older generation.

Speaker 24 And I think that will help battle a lot of the misinformation that's out there. But there are things that they can do.

Speaker 24 In fact, for getting back to the telehealth thing, for example, talking about telemedicine slash telehealth as Ventesh sort of broke down, in terms of it being cut at the end of the month, there are people that are really pushing against that, including Rokana, who's here, a legislator here in California, who's proposed a new bill.

Speaker 24 I haven't been able to see any of the details of it, but there are a lot, including Amazon, by the way. Amazon is one of like 350 companies that have written a letter to

Speaker 24 Congress to help push for this funding.

Speaker 24 So if you can call a congressperson, if you can do that, if you can keep bothering them, telling them how important it is, I think those are things that can help.

Speaker 24 So I think that's a good place to start.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's a really good piece of advice.

Speaker 2 If I could just follow up with that, I think part of what will help with the support for some of these programs is to

Speaker 2 take a few minutes to think about what the other side is worried about, right? I mean, we all know about the excesses of certain online bad actors who are telemedicine.

Speaker 2 They use telemedicine to promote

Speaker 2 ADHD medications or other types of psychotropic medications, which

Speaker 2 was not supported and it actually caused harm, right? So

Speaker 2 there are things out there that are excesses and somewhat harmful.

Speaker 2 And if we could as a community sort of help frame the approach to dealing with some of those things and preventing some of those problems, then I think some of the support will kind of

Speaker 2 show itself. I think the worry is if you open up the floodgates too wide, you know, human nature being what it is, it's going to encourage bad behavior.

Speaker 2 Not that anybody wants that, but there is something to be said about some scrutiny, right?

Speaker 2 So if we're the ones, and I completely support the use of telemedicine, but I also want to be careful about how to promote its thoughtful and safe use and wed that in the proposal.

Speaker 2 and not just leave it for others to figure out. That I think would potentially change the conversation around, well, you just want this and we're not going to give it to you.

Speaker 2 Like the standoff will subside when you try to work it, work a partnership out as opposed to a give it to me or else

Speaker 2 kind of scenario.

Speaker 24 I don't disagree with that, but I also think you're giving Doge more credit than I would, which is to say that they actually really... they really would focus or listen to.

Speaker 24 I think what they've just done is literally, you know, take a chainsaw and cut away at major federal funding and then kind of seeing what was really bad about that and what wasn't and being like, oh, okay, maybe we do need people in charge of nuclear security.

Speaker 24 Oh, maybe this is popular. We'll put it back.
You know, I kind of, I kind of think that they're not taking as much attention or care. But I also do agree that the point is valid.

Speaker 24 I mean, sure, there's, is there fraud in some telemedicine? Yeah, I'm sure. Probably small, very small percentage.
But if we can specify its use, if we can be better about that,

Speaker 4 I agree. I'm all for it.

Speaker 4 Yeah, especially right now, I was just thinking as you were talking about like how important is people accessing reproductive health care and being able to access reproductive health care wherever they are and like how much more difficult that would be if people didn't have telemedicine appointments, something we've spoken about before on the show.

Speaker 4 But yeah, I'm sure there are some small cases. I'm sure there are a bunch of cis gender guys getting gender-affirming hormonal care through telemedicine who probably could go without and be okay.

Speaker 4 Guys, I'd like to wrap up there, but I want to give you a chance both to, you talked a lot about like science communication. So where can people find you online?

Speaker 4 Where can they see you communicating your medical knowledge?

Speaker 2 Okay, well, so I thanks, James. I have a sub stack.
It's called Be a Health Architect. You can look me up at Be a Health Architect.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I have a conversation there around an issue that certainly affects me and those around me, which is physician burnout.

Speaker 2 But in the larger sphere of healthcare professionals, it really touches everybody in healthcare. So that's where I'm posting actively.

Speaker 2 I'm also sharing that through various other avenues such as X and Blue Sky and other places. So you can find me there.
I look forward to seeing you there.

Speaker 24 Yeah, I would also recommend Venktesh's Substack. If you're in the medical field in particular, I think you'll appreciate it.

Speaker 24 A focus on burnout is as important as it's ever been, if not much, much more. I mean, we were talking about burnout and moral injury in doctors before COVID.

Speaker 24 And now, you know, a couple of years down the road, it's only worse. So I think it's really important.
And I do recommend it.

Speaker 24 Or, you know, check out his latest article in the Los Angeles Times, as you mentioned before. As for me, find me on Blue Sky at CaveMD.

Speaker 24 But more importantly, just listen to the podcast, The House of Pod. If you are a fan of this show, I think you're going to like the House of Pod if you haven't already given it a try.

Speaker 24 It's a lot of the same people that you hear on this show, on the House of Pod, James included.

Speaker 24 He's going to be coming back to talk about the measles and with an author of a new book down there about the measles outbreak. And, you know, we take a look at grifters, medical grifters.

Speaker 24 We take a look at some people that would be considered medical contrarians. We take a look at some of the quackery in medicine as well.

Speaker 24 So I think you'll appreciate this show if you like the whole behind the bastards verse. I think you'll get into the house of pod too.
So, check us out wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 4 Yeah, great. Thank you so much for joining us, guys.
Really appreciate it. Thanks.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

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Speaker 5 Welcome to an It Could Happen Here special report. I'm Garrison Davis.
I'm joined by James Stout and Sophie Ray Lickerman.

Speaker 4 So excited.

Speaker 5 We are here to discuss Trump's first joint session speech. of his second term.

Speaker 5 This is basically the equivalent of a state of the union, except it's too early to really give a a good state of the union, even though this month has felt kind of like a year.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 5 we are doing a special report here in addition to our regular executive disorder episode, because there is just so much to talk about that we cannot fit it all in our regular ED.

Speaker 4 This is gotta go,

Speaker 5 pause for effect.

Speaker 4 Okay,

Speaker 4 you can't get me, Gary.

Speaker 5 This was us. Speaking of, this was the longest

Speaker 5 joint session speech in American history.

Speaker 5 And man, it felt like it lasted forever.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 57 I was going to say, and boy, howdy, did it feel. Never ending.

Speaker 5 It went on so long.

Speaker 4 Not a great feat of oratory, really.

Speaker 5 I was supposed to watch some yaoi with a friend last night, and they came over, and I was like, haha, I gotcha. Actually, I have to watch this speech first.
Don't worry.

Speaker 5 Usually it's only like an hour or so.

Speaker 57 I did the exact same scam.

Speaker 4 Two hours later. I did the exact same scam to my friend Sarah.

Speaker 57 She was like, you know, I seriously love you, right?

Speaker 4 Because this is horrible.

Speaker 4 Horrible.

Speaker 5 Two hours later, it finally ends and they're like, okay, we can finally watch Yaoi, right? And like, no, no, no, I have to watch the

Speaker 5 Democratic response speech.

Speaker 4 Don't worry, it should be shorter.

Speaker 5 And thankfully it was.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 5 But yeah, let's just start by talking about like the beginning of this speech or rather what the general overview of this speech was this was not a leaning across the aisle speech right this wasn't trying to unite the country no it was not but you know this catered to core like mega supporters and new issues at the center of the modern right-wing media machine The version of the speech I watched on ABC frequently cut to Matt Walsh and Ben Shapiro sitting together overlooking Congress as they were special guests of the president and the first lady.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 4 Magic.

Speaker 57 They did the same on CNN. I switched back and forth between a couple channels.

Speaker 57 I noted this to our team, but when I first looked up like what time the speech was starting, I turned on my TV and went to CNN and I happened upon them talking about if Dems

Speaker 57 should not applaud or if they should heckle and some motherfucker I don't care about said that Dems should find places to applaud him to show unity.

Speaker 4 Cool. Sure.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
That's always worked well.

Speaker 57 Dems should find places to applaud him to show unity.

Speaker 4 Applaud the king.

Speaker 5 Applaud the king for ruining the government.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 5 For firing all the workers.

Speaker 5 Give him a clap. Why don't you? Sorry, James.
I realized that got a little insensitive.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 4 Yeah, Garrison, this is why we have to watch those videos where the bad actors talk about how they feel. Not anymore.
Talking about our workplace harassment videos.

Speaker 5 DEI is over, James. No more of those videos here in the free state of Georgia.
That's illegal.

Speaker 4 Unfortunately, here in California, I have approximately 75 little, little red bells when I log into my workday.

Speaker 5 But no, like a single time early in the speech, Trump asked Democrats, why not join us in celebrating America after he complained, I could cure any disease and these people sitting right here, the Democrats, They would not cheer.

Speaker 5 I could cure any disease and these people wouldn't cheer.

Speaker 57 No, no, that was weird. I mean, like, like, some dems didn't even show up.
They had the sub cave of wearing certain colours. They did the same performative bullshit they always do.

Speaker 57 And they had what I can only describe as like church paddles.

Speaker 5 The status

Speaker 4 signs on it.

Speaker 4 They weren't even like.

Speaker 57 I mean, like, come on.

Speaker 4 Like a ping-pong paddle.

Speaker 3 Accurate.

Speaker 5 But no, some dems did not show up in protest.

Speaker 5 Others were black, kind of like in mourning.

Speaker 57 Yeah, who cares?

Speaker 5 Some of the women's caucus wore pink, very cool, very feminist.

Speaker 5 And others wore the colors of the Ukrainian flag.

Speaker 4 Sure. That'll help.

Speaker 5 But, you know, Trump just pointed towards the Democrat side of the chamber throughout the night and just referred to them as the radical left lunatics. Like,

Speaker 5 this was not a cross-the-aisle speech.

Speaker 57 No, it wasn't.

Speaker 5 This was, if anything, emphasizing the divisions within the country.

Speaker 57 One of the things that happened before the speech even started was

Speaker 57 like he drove in with Melania

Speaker 57 and Elon.

Speaker 5 First lady and first bitch boy, yeah.

Speaker 4 Weird.

Speaker 4 First buddy, Garrison. First buddy is the official term.

Speaker 57 First buddy, yeah.

Speaker 4 I don't know.

Speaker 57 But like, you know, Trump starts off the speech with.

Speaker 4 America is back.

Speaker 57 And like, how far back are we talking? Because you're not wrong.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Like 1864, I think, is the goal.

Speaker 5 I mean, this is the same phrase that Biden opened his first speech with as well. I think Biden was referring to, like, we are back to pre-Trump America.

Speaker 5 And now Trump is using this phrase to refer to like this mythical America, right?

Speaker 22 Sure.

Speaker 5 But no, Trump took the stage to USA chants throughout

Speaker 5 the rotunda.

Speaker 4 That was, you know, I grew up watching the Houses of Parliament, so I'm used to like

Speaker 4 the boomers getting unruly, but this was something else.

Speaker 57 They're just so feral. It's weird.

Speaker 5 So cheesy. The speech was outlining like a new golden age of America and the renewal of the American dream.

Speaker 5 Trump talked about how he has accomplished in 43 days more than most administrations do in four to eight years, and that we're just getting started. Cool.

Speaker 5 He referred to this wide popular mandate, a quote, a mandate like this has not been seen in many decades, referring to like winning all swing states, winning the Electoral College and the popular vote.

Speaker 5 And reference to this mandate kind of sparked the big boo, big like disruption of the night.

Speaker 57 Specifically when he started saying, we won the popular vote.

Speaker 4 Which like, it's that heavily disputed?

Speaker 5 Like, no, I, I, I don't think that that's not specifically what Mr. Green was talking about.

Speaker 57 I'm not necessarily talking about when he specifically was saying that's when the crowd had their biggest

Speaker 57 reaction of the night, which like weird in my opinion.

Speaker 4 It's great. It's the thing that Democrats are doing now, which is trying to be like the Republicans, but lib.

Speaker 5 Kind of,

Speaker 5 I suppose.

Speaker 57 But not really, because they didn't follow fucking through.

Speaker 5 Without any like strength, like without any actual like momentum.

Speaker 4 Right. Like we saw like the sort of blue and on attempts at election denial like after the election.
And like, I don't think that's what they were doing here.

Speaker 4 Agreed. They gave off this like, yeah, this very ineffectual kind of half-assed attempt at booing.
And then aside from green, they, they all just sat down and waved their ping pong things. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So representative Al Green from Texas, old man with cane.

Speaker 4 It's a good cane. It's got a gold handle.
Like, I thought it was snazzy.

Speaker 4 I thought, I mean, it's the sort of cane you normally see a sword coming out of, if I'm honest. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 That would have been cooler. That would have been cooler.

Speaker 5 But instead, he just waves the cane around, talking about how this mandate doesn't mean that there's a mandate to like, you know, cut Medicaid, cut Medicare.

Speaker 5 That was specifically what he was talking about. Television mics did not really pick that up.

Speaker 4 No. And a lot of reporting didn't either, which was shitty, I thought.
Like, a lot of reporting just mentioned that he had shouted and not what he had shouted about, which I think is like

Speaker 4 really when you like you see what the media is doing is serving as like the propaganda arm of a certain class of people when they're more upset that he was shouting than that he was protesting the fact that people are going to lose their healthcare and probably die because of it.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And like Trump started yelling over these protests.
There was like a brief, maybe like, you know, minute or so like yelling match in the chamber. Mike Johnson was like, what do I do here?

Speaker 5 Eventually, you know, Mike Johnson threatens Mr. Green, gives a warning, and eventually directs the sergeant of arms to restore order and remove him from the chambers.

Speaker 5 Not a not a regular scene in American politics, but a scene that you might be more familiar with in overseas politics,

Speaker 5 specifically in democracies that are in trouble. You'll have more and more scenes like this.

Speaker 4 Yeah, we didn't get any smoke grenades like you see in Serbia.

Speaker 5 You know, it's still 2025, James. We still have

Speaker 4 three more years. Yeah, three more years to break out the ass off smoke grenades.

Speaker 5 Whether or not this is like, you know, performative or cringe, it's like, it's something that demonstrates, hey, like, this actually isn't normal more than holding up a cheesy sign next to Trump reading, this is not normal, which is some others did in protest.

Speaker 5 This actually is treating it like a serious situation. And more Democrats should have done this.

Speaker 5 They should have staggered their protests throughout the entirety of the speech, continually disrupting it, making this speech basically unable to end, pushing this past midnight, having an endless procession of people having to be escorted out.

Speaker 5 You should force Congress to censure half of the sitting Congress people.

Speaker 5 Like if this really is like an actual existential threat to our democracy, if Trump represents right now a genuine constitutional crisis, which he does, he is ignoring the courts, the people in Congress should fucking act like it.

Speaker 4 100%.

Speaker 57 They should have gone literally single file, one by one.

Speaker 5 Stagger it every like three minutes so that he just is unable to finish the speech.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Like have Mike Johnson do this every time.

Speaker 4 Because he was thrown. Yeah,

Speaker 5 he was thrown. And they should have continued to do this.
The fact that no one else did is pretty disappointing.

Speaker 4 You could see Vance was very uncomfortable as well.

Speaker 4 He did have that nervous smile for most of what he normally does when he's confronted with a human being.

Speaker 5 Later on in the speech, after Trump talked about trans women in sports and the price of eggs,

Speaker 5 you had a group of Democrats wearing resist t-shirts walk out of the speech in protest.

Speaker 5 And like, that's so much more pathetic than actually like standing up and talking about how this guy is ignoring the courts and is actually breaking the constitution.

Speaker 5 Like, that's what they should have all been doing instead of wearing resistlib merch performatively.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it uh you could write an onion article parodying this, but it you actually couldn't because they would just do that next time.

Speaker 4 Like, if they really think this is the last, uh, the last joint session of Congress they're ever gonna have, they sure didn't act like it or whatever.

Speaker 5 But this is going to be the first ad break in a series of two mid-episode ad breaks that we are playing on this show.

Speaker 22 So, here's the ads.

Speaker 5 All right, we are back. I hope you pick up your new ad break themed t-shirts to walk around in protest of capitalism.

Speaker 4 Yep, not made by unions.

Speaker 5 All right,

Speaker 5 let's talk about transgenderism. One of the first topics Trump discussed at length was the anti-trans culture war, declaring that the government will be woke no longer.

Speaker 4 Oh, God, that fully fucking sent me. I'd forgotten about that.
It's just so asinine.

Speaker 22 Like drunk old man at pub.

Speaker 5 He bragged about signing an executive order establishing that there's only two genders,

Speaker 5 as well as an order preventing quote-unquote men from playing in women's sports.

Speaker 5 He first pointed out to someone in the audience who was a former volleyball player who got hurt by a volleyball and then decided to quit the sport.

Speaker 5 And they now blame this on the fact that a trans woman was allegedly responsible for

Speaker 5 probably spiking the volleyball, which, yes, is painful.

Speaker 57 For playing sport the way that everyone else plays sport.

Speaker 4 Yeah, for trying to win

Speaker 5 in a team volleyball context.

Speaker 5 So, so, yes, this was the first kind of of these political props that Trump brought along to kind of point out and demonstrate some of the things that he was talking about. Frankly,

Speaker 5 it just seems like this person was not a very good volleyball player. But the next example Trump pointed to, I think James can speak better on,

Speaker 5 but Trump said that essentially there was a quote-unquote man who beat a woman in a race by five hours to the shock of the audience.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so look. It will shock listeners to hear that most of what he said is wrong.
He directly referenced a friend of mine. He was referring to Austin Killips, who is a woman.
She's a trans woman.

Speaker 4 She's a very good cyclist. The reason reason she was doing the race, which is the Arizona Trail Race, it's an 800-mile ultra-endurance race.
Like, I used to do these kind of things.

Speaker 4 The reason she was doing it is because of a UCI Union Cyclis Internationale. The governing bodies stopped trans women competing, right? So she did these races, which were not sanctioned by them.

Speaker 4 She did get the record. The previous holder of the record was a cis man.

Speaker 4 The cis man had previously beaten a cis woman, Lael Wilcox. It's interesting that in this particular discipline, actually, like

Speaker 4 cis women have been doing as well as, if not better than men, like Lael Wilcox owns nearly all the long distance records in the United States. She's a phenomenal athlete.

Speaker 4 The idea that there's some inherent biological advantage is particularly nonsense in this sphere of cycling. But the reason that she was five hours ahead is because this race is 800 miles long.

Speaker 4 Like those, those records are broken by that kind of period.

Speaker 4 Not all the time, but when you have athletes like Austin coming from the higher paying areas of the sport into this, which has been a a much less well-paid and much smaller area of the sport, you're going to see these records getting broken.

Speaker 4 And again, she broke a record that was held by a cis dude. Crazy.
Yeah, it's fucking ridiculous.

Speaker 57 I mean, like the level of like propaganda and lie. I mean, my, my mom watched the speech and she was like, that doesn't seem possible.
And I was like, because it's all bullshit.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's the second time he's picked on Austin and obviously it pisses me off.

Speaker 4 You could read her op-ed in The Guardian, where she wrote about this the last time he cited her in his executive order, and I would encourage you to.

Speaker 5 So, after this initial dive into the trans topic, Trump followed up by talking about how egg prices are out of control. Take a shot,

Speaker 5 which happened about 15 minutes into the speech. But near the end of the speech, Trump returned to the trans topic, pointing to the anti-trans activist mom named January Littlejod,

Speaker 5 no comment, whose kid secretly used they, them pronouns at school, with Trump discussing how wrong it is for schools to secretly transition students. And like, this actually just isn't true.

Speaker 5 Surprise, surprise.

Speaker 5 The parents in this case knew that their kid wanted to use a different name and pronouns at school and actually were the ones to inform the school of this, according to school emails obtained by CNN.

Speaker 5 Not that this matters, and I will say, during this clip, when the camera cuts towards this mom, like all of all of the people that were used as political props that were cut to, they all had the most bizarre look on their face.

Speaker 5 Like completely blank, like soulless, not even get really excited.

Speaker 5 This woman who was kind of one of also the faces of like Florida's Don't Say Gay Bill, just yeah, completely like blank expression because this thing that the president's talking about is just a flat out lie.

Speaker 5 And like, you know, it you lost a federal lawsuit over this lie, but here you are on national TV now, the prop of the president.

Speaker 4 Yeah, on national TV in front of both houses of Congress, attacking your own kid. Yep.
For trying to be who they want to be. A subject on which you lost a lawsuit.

Speaker 5 And then Trump directly asked Congress to pass a bill banning trans health care for children, saying, wokeness is gone. Our country will be woke no longer.

Speaker 4 Whatever. Such a loser.

Speaker 5 The next topic was Elon Musk's Doge.

Speaker 5 Trump essentially just read out a list that mischaracterized aid programs or scientific research grants, talking about how health and human services paid for housing for displaced immigrants in the United States, money for Middle East Sesame Street for making mice transgender and LGBTQ education in Africa, as well as DEI in Burma, which I will now pivot to James again to fill in some context here.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so I'm aware of this scholarship because I'm aware of the people within the civil disobedience movement who are talking to the State Department about it, and they begged for it not to be be a DEI thing because they could see this happening, right?

Speaker 4 It's the Lincoln Scholarship Program. I'll link to it in the show notes, but it exists to empower people in Burma, right, with technical skills and to rise up young leaders in Burma.

Speaker 4 And it's not a DEI program, but for some reason it was categorized as such, right?

Speaker 4 It talks about respecting diversity because as long-term listeners will know, Myanmar is an extremely diverse country, right? With more than 50 ethnic groups and hundreds of languages spoken.

Speaker 4 So like that's why it talks about respecting diversity.

Speaker 4 This is one of the few things the United States has done for the people of Myanmar after pumping up their economy, pumping up real estate, and then doing nothing when the military seized power there and started to brutally repress the people.

Speaker 4 And the US is also, I should add at this point, holding a billion dollars of the Burmese people's money that it froze when the coup happened.

Speaker 4 And if it doesn't want to give them these scholarships, it could give them back their money. But I'm sure it won't.
I don't know.

Speaker 4 This one pisses me off in particular because obviously I'm very invested in the cause of the people of Myanmar and they are my friends.

Speaker 57 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And this is very emblematic of the way Trump and Elon talk about a bunch of these aid programs, how like, you know, HIV prevention programs will be LGBTQ

Speaker 5 USAID money, right? Like

Speaker 5 they find a way to mischaracterize it in the most like culture of war way.

Speaker 4 Yeah, talking about public health programs as circumcisions. Right.

Speaker 5 Yeah, exactly. Right.
They'll try to find every single like health or education program and turn it into some like LGBTQ or DEI culture war issue.

Speaker 5 Trump claimed on stage that they've found hundreds of billions of dollars of fraud.

Speaker 5 Now, the Doge website previously listed $105 billion in like found savings, but this very week, the website scrubbed five of the highest dollar value receipts after journalists found massive errors in Elon's estimated count.

Speaker 5 And now its wallet receipts receipts totals around 8 billion, though that might also be an overestimate, according to some journalists. Amazing.

Speaker 5 Trump also talked about alleged social security fraud, claiming that millions and millions of dead people are getting social security.

Speaker 5 Like, this just isn't true.

Speaker 57 The math is not mathing.

Speaker 4 Yeah, this has been their thing for a while, right? Dead people are voting, dead people are getting social security. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Trump's own social security administrator has like said as much.
The super old people in the database simply don't have death details logged, but they are not receiving payments.

Speaker 5 There is improper payments in the social security system, usually around 1%.

Speaker 5 Mostly, that's overpayments or underpayments to people who are actually alive.

Speaker 5 And there is a system for resolving those already in place because social security is a pretty old system that we've had for quite a while.

Speaker 5 And, like, I don't know, like, Trump skirted by a lot of economy issues.

Speaker 5 And the way he did so was just by repeatedly claiming that Doge and like cutting this fraud will magically fix the economy, right? Like this is how he wants to frame this.

Speaker 5 Eggs are too much money, all of these things. And he has no actual solution to it.
So instead, we're going to fix the economy through Doge.

Speaker 5 Through finding all this fraud, somehow we will locate this like pot of gold hidden somewhere that will magically make our economy better.

Speaker 5 And this is his solution because he doesn't have any real solution.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I should have pointed out that Lincoln scholarships were in fact a Trump thing.
They started in 2019, this round of them.

Speaker 5 So like. Good job cutting your own fraud, Donald.

Speaker 4 Do you know what else started in the first Trump era, Garrison?

Speaker 5 Advertising.

Speaker 4 Advertisements.

Speaker 5 Was I believe Trump's first executive order? He established the podcasting advertising industry, which, you know, supports us to this day.

Speaker 4 Today is the backbone of the American economy.

Speaker 5 I mean, that's actually, unfortunately, more true than it should be.

Speaker 4 No, if anyone wants to buy any colloidal silver, no, no, no.

Speaker 4 Okay, we are back.

Speaker 5 On top of trans issues, the other, I would say, most cited element in this speech was the border.

Speaker 5 Trump referenced the Lake and Riley Act, which requires DHS to detain illegal immigrants who've admitted to, were charged with, or convicted of theft-related crimes or any crime related to serious bodily injury.

Speaker 4 They're not necessarily illegal. They could just be undocumented people, or they could be asylum seekers.
Correct. Correct.

Speaker 5 Yes, that is a good point.

Speaker 57 I just want to note, it was incredible the amount of sad-looking children and or family members that he had as his propaganda prop people.

Speaker 5 He had a lot of props for this speech.

Speaker 57 A lot of props for his speech. I had a friend watch with me and she just kept going.
How did he find like these people?

Speaker 5 These people have been figures of his campaign for years.

Speaker 57 Yeah, I explained that. I explained that.
Yeah, he's brought these same individuals out, as Gary just mentioned, over and over and over again.

Speaker 5 And used same thing with Fox News, same thing with One America News. Like their entire life revolves around being political props.

Speaker 4 It's an industry. Right.

Speaker 57 There was nothing new here.

Speaker 5 Trump signed an executive order on stage to rename a wildlife preserve in this like anti-immigrant propaganda move.

Speaker 5 He called for mandatory death penalty for anyone who kills a police officer and asked Congress to sign sign that into law, which is mostly like an anti-immigrant dog whistle, essentially trying to find a way to kill immigrants who are like charged with the death of a police officer.

Speaker 4 Yeah, they've proposed the same thing for people smuggling drugs into the United States, like effectively charging them as if they were going to give all the drugs to one person to murder them and therefore giving them the death penalty.

Speaker 5 Now that he wants to label all these people terrorists or has labeled these groups terrorists, it gives the government a lot more leeway to do stuff like that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, proving membership of those groups would be a challenge.

Speaker 5 Sure. I mean, so is proving membership to Antifa.

Speaker 4 Yes, exactly. Yeah.
We haven't seen how they're going to, well, we've somewhat seen how they're going to try in the latter case, but

Speaker 4 not in the former, I guess. We'll see, I'm sure, at some point in the next year or two.

Speaker 5 But like Trump said that previously America has quote-unquote buckled under migrant occupation. But now we are achieving the great liberation of America.

Speaker 5 So that's the sort of language he was using for this section.

Speaker 4 And he said how they rule from mental asylums and prisons.

Speaker 5 Very standard campaign rhetoric that he's used for years now.

Speaker 4 If you're new to this podcast, you can go back, you can search the word hacumba or border, and you can listen to interviews with probably hundreds of migrants. You can listen to my Title 42 series.

Speaker 4 You can listen to my Darienne series, and you can judge for yourself if these people are criminal or bad or mentally unwell.

Speaker 5 The economy had a very minimal focus compared to border or trans issues.

Speaker 5 He really skirted over the tariffs thing as fast as possible.

Speaker 5 Briefly talked about the federal funding freeze, bragged about terminating the green new scam, something that has never existed.

Speaker 5 Talking about withdrawing from the Paris Climate Accords again, as well as the corrupt World Health Organization

Speaker 5 and the anti-American UN War Crime Council. Very cool.

Speaker 5 Bragged about ending climate restrictions, you know, drill baby drill, going after rare earth minerals. Talked about no tax on tips over time and benefits for seniors.

Speaker 5 And then briefly discussed that on April 2nd, he will be enacting reciprocal tariffs just completely across the board for all nations.

Speaker 5 And he did warn farmers there is going to be an adjustment period.

Speaker 5 Quote, there will be a little disturbance, unquote.

Speaker 4 Certainly.

Speaker 4 When you adjust to not having a job that pays you any money anymore.

Speaker 5 Crashing the economy will have a bit of an adjustment period. It will be a bit of a little disturbance.

Speaker 57 Yeah, I mean, just like he just kept going through these

Speaker 57 obvious, ridiculous claims and making Trump side comment stupidity, like calling the Middle East a bad neighborhood.

Speaker 5 Sesame Street joke.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 57 It's just incredible. And James, our colleague Molly Conger, had a good point.

Speaker 4 She did, yeah. Of her many good points.

Speaker 4 Trump said that people had never heard of Lesotho, at the same time pronouncing it in a way that one would only know if one had heard it pronounced rather than seen it written on the page.

Speaker 4 Very, very funny, Southown. He also said something about Liberia, like implying, like, I would encourage people to understand the history of Liberia if they think the U.S.

Speaker 4 doesn't owe Liberia a thing or two.

Speaker 5 One of the last focuses of the speech was national security, promising a golden dome missile defense system,

Speaker 5 which Trump has previously talked about at previous 2024 campaign events.

Speaker 24 Obsessed with gold.

Speaker 5 Obsessed with gold.

Speaker 4 Obsessed with Dome.

Speaker 4 At his advent.

Speaker 4 Jesus Christ. Garrison didn't even crack for those listening.

Speaker 5 Once again, his.

Speaker 4 Got him now.

Speaker 5 Once again, he announced that his administration will be reclaiming the Panama Canal.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Saying, we have Mark Rubio in charge. Good luck, Marco.
If something goes wrong, we know who to blame. Great.

Speaker 4 Yeah, amazing.

Speaker 5 His comments on Greenland were specifically odd, saying, Greenland, we strongly support your right to determine your own future. And if you choose, we welcome you into the United States of America.

Speaker 5 But the full quote about Greenland was very odd. He said, quote, we need Greenland for national security and even international security.

Speaker 57 So weird.

Speaker 5 And we're working with everybody involved to try to get it. But we need it, really, for international, for world security.
And I think we're going to get it One way or another, we're going to get it.

Speaker 5 It's a very small population, but a very, very large piece of land and very, very important for military security.

Speaker 22 Unquote.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Very odd. Very odd comments.

Speaker 4 A whole collection of English language words.

Speaker 5 He is continuing to say that one way or another, he will take Greenland. I think his focus on it.
for national security is particularly interesting.

Speaker 5 I think this has something to do with trying to make the U.S.

Speaker 5 and Russia these like two massive like world powers that both have like, you know, Arctic land at their disposal, considering climate change or, you know, a variety of issues.

Speaker 5 But I think that this does move towards this like quasi like duganism of like this like multipolar world that that Putin certainly wants.

Speaker 5 And Trump is kind of signaling that, you know, through the influence of Bannon, he's also moving towards with like Putin and Trump and like, you know, the two people who control the world.

Speaker 5 Speaking of, Trump did talk about receiving a letter from President Zelensky asking to return to the negotiating table and bragged about freeing another weed-smoking teacher in a Russian jail,

Speaker 5 returning him home to America.

Speaker 5 And oddly enough, Trump met with the mother of this teacher in Butler, Pennsylvania, right before he got shot, which led him to point towards the Comparator family, again, pronouncing it in a completely new and different way.

Speaker 5 All of the members of the family seemed very not thrilled to be there. Completely blank expressions.

Speaker 5 Quite odd.

Speaker 57 Extremely weird.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So, this is where he ended the speech, was talking about, you know, getting shot, and then kind of went on a very long 10-minute, almost chat GPT-esque ramble about like America.

Speaker 5 I didn't take any notes on it because it just sounded like word salad, but there is a few other miscellaneous things from the speech I do want to mention before we close out.

Speaker 5 Trump bragged about stopping all government censorship and having brought back free speech to America, saying it's back

Speaker 5 which is you know slightly humorous amidst reports of grants being pulled for using quote-unquote the bad words wrong words as well as a

Speaker 5 truth social post a truth made earlier today Wednesday

Speaker 5 saying all federal funding will stop for any college school or university that allows illegal protests Agitators will be imprisoned or permanently sent back to the country from which they came.

Speaker 5 American students will be permanently expelled or, depending on the crime, arrested.

Speaker 4 No masks.

Speaker 5 So in one moment, you can celebrate bringing back free speech and in the other, you can call for deporting people who protest or imprisoning students for protesting on their own university campuses.

Speaker 5 Very, very typical Trump double speak type stuff.

Speaker 57 He talked about bringing the people back to the office. Like, these are all like normal Trump.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Well, yeah, and these are things that have happened already. Like most of the half of this speech was celebrating things that he's already done.

Speaker 5 The other half was like asking Congress to help him do more things mixed in with these weird propaganda moves, like making this 13-year-old brain cancer survivor an honorary secret service agent and admitting this very square-looking teenager into West Point, who, by the way, this

Speaker 5 teenager has the most cop phenotype I've ever seen before. It's crazy.

Speaker 4 I was shocked.

Speaker 5 I'm like, whoa, they found him. The cop phenotype.

Speaker 4 There he is.

Speaker 5 Which is

Speaker 5 two more of these weird props.

Speaker 4 It's like in the cave in Plato. Everything else is just a reflection of this cop kid, every other cop.

Speaker 5 It's so odd because Trump spent this speech talking about how

Speaker 5 we're bringing back merit-based hiring. We have quote, ended the tyranny of DEI across government, private sector, and military, as he then just did to DEI hires on stage.
But, you know,

Speaker 5 who might to say?

Speaker 5 So that's kind of all I have to say on the Trump speech right now. I will briefly, very briefly talk about the Democratic response.

Speaker 5 The Democratic response was done by Senator Slotkin from Michigan, who opened by saying America wants change, but there's a responsible way to make change and an irresponsible way, trying to paint Doge as like this very irresponsible and brash way to achieve efficiencies, something that we all obviously, you know, want the government to move more towards.

Speaker 5 She warned about how Trump's actions may result in a recession, warned about losing Social Security, Medicare, and VA benefits, quoted Musk, who recently called Social Security the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time, and attacked Musk and the 20-year-old Doge members for using their own servers to access your sensitive data.

Speaker 5 Slotkin spent a lot of the rebuttal praising Ronald Reagan. Odd for a Democrat, I would say.
I don't know why.

Speaker 5 Strange. Don't know why you, as the opposition party, are continuing to base your politics on praising Bush and Reagan.
Very cool opposition party, bros. Very fun stuff.

Speaker 5 She also said, I've lived and worked in many countries. I've seen democracies flicker out.
I've seen what life is like when a government is rigged. I'm like, yeah, I bet you have.

Speaker 5 Former CIA agent.

Speaker 5 She also mentioned doom scrolling.

Speaker 5 So that really shows how the Democrats have the finger on the pulse here when doom scrolling is mentioned as something not to do, saying instead you should hold your elected officials, including me, accountable, watch how they're voting, go to town halls, demand they take action, and organize, pick up one issue you're passionate about, and engage.

Speaker 5 Doom scrolling doesn't count. Join a group that cares about your issue and act.
If you can't find one, start one.

Speaker 5 And that was the bulk of the 10-minute Democratic response.

Speaker 22 Oh boy,

Speaker 5 what a fun day in American politics that was.

Speaker 4 Yep.

Speaker 5 Any final thoughts, James, Sophie?

Speaker 57 Like this speech, this episode is running long. Yeah.
So I really don't have any final thoughts other than

Speaker 4 bad,

Speaker 4 bad. Bad.

Speaker 5 Bad. Bad.
The Democrats are unwilling to do anything actually serious. Once again, the attempts at, quote-unquote, fact-checking the speech are also incredibly pathetic to look at.

Speaker 5 Truly. There's this New York Times fact-check, which I will close on just because it made me and the rest of our group chat very upset.

Speaker 5 which outlined this long paragraph from Trump saying, over the past four years, 21 million people poured into the the United States, many of whom were murderers, human traffickers, gang members, and other criminals from the streets of dangerous cities and all throughout the world.

Speaker 5 Because of Joe Biden's insane and very dangerous open border policies, they are now strongly embedded in our country. But we are getting them out and getting them out fast.

Speaker 5 And the fact check for this very like false claim is, quote, fast is a relative term. This statement is misleading.

Speaker 4 It's just, oh, it only

Speaker 5 focuses on the ending sentence saying that we're getting these immigrants out and we're getting them out fast ignores calling

Speaker 5 many of these 21 million people human traffickers gang members and criminals Does not say that we never have had open border policy like it's crazy

Speaker 5 Even like the liberal fact-checking is completely pathetic and toothless and like fact-checking doesn't work It's it's it's it's not useful anyway That's why I'm not spending this whole episode fact-checking Trump's claims

Speaker 5 The fact that you're gonna parrot this insane anti-immigrant rhetoric and only fact chuck Trump saying that we're gonna get these immigrants out of our country fast, calling it a relative term.

Speaker 5 And this is the reason that the statement is misleading. This completely shows how Democrats like completely lost any momentum on the immigration topic.
Same thing with the trans topic.

Speaker 5 They're actually unwilling to push back on changing populist sentiment because they're automatically agreeing with the actual conceit. Yeah.
Anyway, that got me upset.

Speaker 5 And then I watched Yaoi and then went to bed.

Speaker 4 So there we go. Glad you got your yaoi garrison.

Speaker 57 Anyways.

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Speaker 5 This is It Could Happen here, Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis.

Speaker 5 Today I'm joined by Robert Evans, Nia Wong, James Stouch, and Sophie Lichterman.

Speaker 22 Tragically, we all have ED.

Speaker 22 All right, I got it out of the way. We can continue the episode now.

Speaker 5 This episode, we are covering the week of February 27 to March 5.

Speaker 5 Number go down. Public humiliation ritual of Vladimir Zelensky and the age of U.S.
global supremacy is over.

Speaker 4 Welcome to the end of the American Empire. It sucks way more than I thought it would.
Yeah.

Speaker 22 Uh-huh. Well, I mean, look, some of us have been saying this.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 First is tragedy, then it's fast, and then it's whatever the fuck is happening now.

Speaker 22 Yeah,

Speaker 22 we have crossed the tragedy farce horizon. We're well beyond, we're well beyond anything Marx could have anticipated.

Speaker 4 We're going, we don't need FOSS.

Speaker 5 Like, I am upset about how landy and everything is becoming. Like, I feel like you have to be almost forced into being an accelerationist now.
Like, there is no other way out.

Speaker 4 Did you watch the Democrats last night, Garrison?

Speaker 5 It's like this non-consensual accelerationism. Yeah, yeah.
That, like, people spent years trying to resist this accelerationist push that even now I'm seeing like analysts like embrace.

Speaker 5 Like, I guess we have to be accelerationists now, which is very bizarre to see.

Speaker 4 Yeah, as I've been saying, there is no no more ideology called accelerationism. There is just acceleration and what you do about it.
So fun hole we've gotten ourselves into.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Speaking of, let's start with talking about Ukraine.

Speaker 4 Yeah, a place which accelerated.

Speaker 5 And that Oval Office meeting that happened last Friday. That was a little bit odd, wasn't it, folks?

Speaker 57 Garrison, say thank you.

Speaker 5 Thank, thank you. Hey, yes, I realize I've been under your employee for

Speaker 5 four years now. I've said thank you many times.

Speaker 57 Each of you, thank me. No, I'm kidding.
Jesus Christ. Wow.

Speaker 22 Sophie has gone mad with power.

Speaker 4 I'm going to go court the EU because Sophie has asked me to.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 5 So I don't know. I'm sure people saw like a two-minute clip or something.
I watched the full 10-minute section, which is much more crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And like in Trump's push to get like this ceasefire deal, Zelensky's hesitation has been because Putin has broken multiple ceasefire deals. So how can we be sure that he will respect this one?

Speaker 5 And that's kind of what jumpstarts this extra combative exchange between Trump Zelensky and eventually little boy JD. I don't know.
Robert and James, you're war under standards.

Speaker 4 Yeah,

Speaker 4 that's what it says when I go into my HR page.

Speaker 22 The increasing story of, and this affects Ukraine, but is not just limited to it.

Speaker 22 The story of the next several years is going to be the mass rearmament of Europe and almost certain nuclear proliferation.

Speaker 22 France, who has, I think, 295 nuclear warheads and extremely advanced first-strike capability, as well as a first-strike doctrine, is under Macron has just made a statement that he's willing to have France be the nuclear shield for the rest of Europe.

Speaker 22 The UK also has enough nukes to kill way more people than actually live there.

Speaker 22 Unfortunately, their nuclear defense system and reaction system is very tied into the US one.

Speaker 22 I expect you will see them severate from the United States as the United States becomes more and more of a geopolitical adversary to England and to everywhere else in Europe, I think you are going to see more smaller states in Europe get the bomb.

Speaker 22 I think in general,

Speaker 22 I'm shocked if in four years there's not at least another four or five states that have gained access to the bomb.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 22 Because the overarching international lesson from Ukraine is never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever give up a nuke and get one at all costs.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Famously, the European national anthem will now be because if it's not love, it's the bomb that will bring us together.
Yep.

Speaker 4 Garrison.

Speaker 22 I don't like that I like, I'm not saying this because it's good, but it's also literally like if I was in charge of European security, that's what you mean.

Speaker 22 My priority would be let's get as many fucking nukes out here as we can.

Speaker 4 I think we should say that like this is how U.S. diplomacy happens.
This sort of shouting at and humiliating non-U.S. leaders is what the U.S.
does.

Speaker 4 The difference here is that Trump did it in front of the entire White House press corps and TV cameras.

Speaker 22 Yes.

Speaker 5 In the Oval Office for everyone to see.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And it doesn't give Zelensky a place to back down, right? Like he's a leader of a country that is at war.
He needs to show strength.

Speaker 4 And like, certainly sort of with the current understanding of leadership, he needs to show strength. And to show strength, he doesn't have many places to go when he's been humiliated like that, right?

Speaker 5 Well, and like, you know, Trump was yelling about, you know, World War III and then an advanced Chinese

Speaker 5 with his, with his little like thank you speech and I think Robert I think I think you pointed out to me earlier like why Vance jumped in on this the way he did in like a way to establish dominance when Vance and Trump have very little cards to play because this is a guy who has been like at war for years now

Speaker 5 and like they need to feel superior to that and that's why it's a public humiliation ritual because that's the only method they had right now.

Speaker 22 No, because there's nothing really like they play act at masculinity, and their fan, especially Trump's base, really like feeds into that.

Speaker 22 But they definitely also have that deep secure insecurity that, because of aspects of our culture and media, I think most men who have never been to war have a little bit of that.

Speaker 22 I don't think it's a natural thing for men, but I think it's a natural thing in our society. I think it is extremely common, verging on universal.
I went to war in part because of that derangement.

Speaker 22 And by the way, war doesn't do anything to make you better.

Speaker 4 But what it does do,

Speaker 22 what it has done for Zelensky and why he acted the way he is, is that like he's he's literally been in the position of his entire family and him having AK-47 shoved into their hands because a Russian kill team was in the city gunning for him and his family as bombs fell all around.

Speaker 4 Like,

Speaker 22 he's just, he's, I think he just has too much pride. Sorry, pride's even the wrong thing.
He's learned over the course of fighting this war when you are up against a strong man, you can't back down.

Speaker 4 Like, yeah, you'll just keep getting pushed back further and further if you do that.

Speaker 22 Because he wouldn't have gotten anything if he had like sat there and been nice and let them make fun of him. And like, like the, the, the ending would be the same.

Speaker 22 They'd made up their minds prior to that meeting.

Speaker 4 Right. And like.

Speaker 4 One of the things that Zelensky has going for him, and like, there's a lot he doesn't have going for him, he's not a coward. And like, no, people have noticed that he's not a coward.

Speaker 4 and that has bought him some of the support and like it has allowed him to remain in that position of leadership a relatively uncontested right they haven't been able to have elections this is something that the ukrainian opposition have have also kind of consented to it's not like he's he's being a dictator here as trump has alleged but like his his

Speaker 4 personal bravery and willingness to confront these strong men is something that like people draw strength from in ukraine and he can't afford to let that go he actually was fairly submissive in this exchange He was letting Trump talk way over him.

Speaker 5 Zelensky did not raise his voice.

Speaker 5 Frankly, I don't understand how people have even deluded themselves into thinking this makes like Zelensky look bad or like he wasn't proper.

Speaker 4 Yeah, he handled it like a grown-up would handle it. Like he tried to point out what you're saying is wrong.

Speaker 5 This was clearly like a coordinated trap from like the entire White House team, from like the press corps, like talking about like why he doesn't wear a suit.

Speaker 5 And like someone like Rubio, like a neocon that has more of this like geopolitics focus, like he was like literally like sinking into the couch as this was happening.

Speaker 5 Like Rubio was not thrilled at this.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 22 No, no, because Rubio, he has no personal pride or backbone. So he is willing to try and remake himself as a Trumper.
But in his actual heart and soul, he's a Reagan Republican. Totally.
Sure.

Speaker 22 Or maybe at least a Bush Republican.

Speaker 5 Definitely Bush. And I don't know like Zelensky was literally kicked out of the White House on Friday.
He's now trying to find a way back into the negotiating table.

Speaker 5 On Monday, the United States suspended all military aid to Ukraine after Trump has continued to inflate the numbers in regards to the amount of military aid we have sent to Ukraine, often by a magnitude of $200 billion.

Speaker 5 And I know, like, this was one of the first things that me and Robert noticed at the RNC, like how much Ukraine was like...

Speaker 4 a top issue for them.

Speaker 5 Like people wouldn't shut up about Ukraine. And it took us a few days to like acclimate, be like, okay, like, why are they talking about it in this way? Like,

Speaker 5 it was very odd. And Robert did a deep dive on that last year with friend of the pod, Rudy Giuliani.

Speaker 22 Garrison, I just wanted to update you. I've been talking with Rudy about the album that you and I wanted to drop with him, and he is on board, so we will be moving forward with that this spring.

Speaker 5 That's exciting. A little taste for all you listeners.

Speaker 5 This is very much a part, in my mind, a part of Bannon's push for like this quasi-duganism, this idea of a multipolar world of Trump and Putin with Putin expanding power into Europe while Trump tries to seize control over more parts of North and Central America, you know, taking the Panama Canal, eventually Canada and Greenland.

Speaker 5 You know, and like both people wanting, you know, more Arctic land that will be useful considering climate change. And Russia already has their fair share.

Speaker 5 So that's why Greenland is so essential for national security, like Trump talked about endlessly in his joint session speech. I guess,

Speaker 5 Mia, do you want to add something about this mineral thing before we go to break?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so I think one of the important things here is that this is the definitive break point.

Speaker 4 Like, this is the moment that people are going to point to when they look back on the moment the old American empire died.

Speaker 4 And that empire, you know, the sort of post-World War II international order thing, right? The way the U.S.

Speaker 4 maintained its geopolitical and economic power was by a network and system of alliances with a bunch of the, you know, with their allies in sort of, in places like Japan, but also, you know, across Western Europe.

Speaker 4 They maintained this series of economic and political alliances that was able to win the Cold War,

Speaker 4 make the U.S. like the world's lowest superpower.
But in order for it to function, the U.S. has to maintain the alliance system, even as it's doing imperial power protection and use its allies.

Speaker 22 Well, and like the U.S.'s power primarily has always come from the fact that like, or at least in this last century, has been from the fact that we're the center of the global economy.

Speaker 4 Yeah, right? And the second part of it has been has been its ability to wield power in international institutions, right?

Speaker 4 The U.S. seizing control of the IMF and the World Bank and using sort of

Speaker 4 trade doctrine to sort of empower itself. And this is all fucking gone.
The U.S. is alienating everyone in the fucking globe, basically,

Speaker 4 except for Russia. And now we're entering this really kind of...

Speaker 4 Argentina?

Speaker 4 Maybe.

Speaker 4 We'll see how long that government holds.

Speaker 4 But, you know, like, and the thing that it's pivoting to now, right, is the stuff that used to be there, there'd be a sort of like coalition thing and American corporations would do this stuff behind the scenes is now just unbelievably explicit.

Speaker 4 The U.S. is just straight up openly doing resource colonialism.
Like, they're straight up, they're demanding that Ukraine exchange its mineral resources for protection.

Speaker 4 Like, it is straight up a protection racket. Yeah.
The proposed way that it works is that there's going to be like a quote-unquote development fund controlled by the U.S.

Speaker 4 and Ukraine, like jointly, but I mean, it's going to be controlled by the U.S. I don't know why people are pretending that Ukraine is going to like have a say in this.

Speaker 4 I'm going to read from the proposed agreement. We don't know what the text of the final agreement is going to be.

Speaker 4 Zelensky has recently expressed that he's willing to sign it, but we don't know exactly what's going to look like.

Speaker 4 Here's the quote from the document that we had.

Speaker 4 The government of Ukraine will contribute to the fund 50% of all revenues earned from the future monetization of all relevant Ukrainian government-owned natural resource assets, whether owned directly or indirectly by the Ukrainian government, defined as deposits of minerals, hydrocarbons, oil, natural gas, and other extractable minerals, and other infrastructure relevant to natural resource assets, such as liquefied natural gas terminals and port infrastructure, as agreed by both participants, as may be further described in the fund agreement.

Speaker 4 Another quote: The fund's investment process will be designed so as to invest in projects in Ukraine and attract investments to increase the development, processing, and monetization of all public and private Ukrainian assets, including, but not limited to, deposits of minerals, hydrocarbons, oil, natural gas, et cetera, et cetera, ports, and state-owned enterprises, as may be further described in the fund agreement.

Speaker 4 So what they're talking about here is not just like seizing control of Ukrainian mineral resources.

Speaker 4 They are talking about like privatizing the Ukrainian state and selling it off and taking the profits from that. They are talking about seizing ports, which I have seen no media coverage of.

Speaker 4 I do not know why. It is in the agreement.
You can just read it there.

Speaker 4 I, notably, on the show am not like, I am well known as not a China supporter, but I deeply remember for five years, everyone losing their fucking minds about China doing this exact same fucking thing with port lease agreements.

Speaker 4 And the US is just doing it now. And this is just what the new international order is going to be.
It's the U.S. just very, very openly,

Speaker 4 instead of working through allies, instead of working through sort of like regime shift operations, it's just the U.S.

Speaker 4 going to be going like, okay, like you are are all going to die unless you give us all your money.

Speaker 5 Speaking of giving us all your money.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 22 Hell yeah.

Speaker 4 That's right. Magnificent.

Speaker 5 That was art. Here's some ads.

Speaker 4 All right.

Speaker 5 All right, we are back.

Speaker 5 Robert, you want to talk about Syria?

Speaker 22 Yeah, Syria. I hardly know.
know you. Okay, anyway, I was sent a document by my good friend Joey Ayub from the Fire

Speaker 22 This Time podcast.

Speaker 22 Sorry, the Fire in These Times podcast. Joey's great.
It's a document that the U.S. is sending out to NGOs around the world.
This one was sent to an NGO doing humanitarian work in Syria.

Speaker 22 And it's basically, you have to fill this out in order to have a chance of retaining the funding that has been paused right now, right? So this is part of the U.S. aid pause.

Speaker 22 If you want to get that money, you have to fill this out and basically prove that you are in line with the new executive orders and policies of the United States government.

Speaker 22 There's a bunch of questions on here that you have to answer. A lot of them are yes, no, and many of them are just like normal shit, right?

Speaker 22 Does your organization have a current risk management framework or policy? Yes, no. If yes, please describe the framework or policy, right?

Speaker 22 Not extreme or anything like that.

Speaker 22 You have to say that you're not working with cartels, narco-human traffickers, but then you have to say you have not, quote, organized groups that promote mass migration in the last 10 years, which is interesting.

Speaker 22 And when you're dealing with like war-torn areas that are helping like refugees escape. is clearly going to be damaging to a lot of NGOs that have done very good work to save people.
Yeah.

Speaker 22 Number five is, does your organization encourage free speech and encourage open debate and free sharing of information? Yes, no.

Speaker 22 And then right under that, does your organization have a clear policy of prohibiting any collaboration, funding, or support for entities that advocate or implement policies contrary to U.S.

Speaker 22 government interests? So free speech, unless it's not stuff that we like, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so it's kind of always been the way, to be fair.

Speaker 22 Now, kind of the most, I mean, not kind of, by a wide margin, the most fucked up thing about this is that it then goes down, again, right after the free speech thing.

Speaker 22 First off, I should note, number 11, after the free speech question, can you confirm your organization does not work with entities that are associated with communist, socialist, or totalitarian parties.

Speaker 22 And then below that is a basically a question of like whether or not, and they frame it as like, does this project take appropriate measures to protect women and to defend against gender ideology as defined in the below executive order?

Speaker 22 And then it links to the defending women from gender ideology extremism and restoring biological truth to the federal government executive order.

Speaker 22 And then it asks, does the project take appropriate measures to protect children? And links to the same executive order.

Speaker 22 So it is basically saying your organization has to support effectively like transphobic policies in Syria in order to continue to get U.S. money, right?

Speaker 22 Like, and the fact that that is no one a requirement for aid organizations receiving aid worldwide now is deeply harmful. And it's also just like.

Speaker 22 Syria was already transphobic.

Speaker 4 Like,

Speaker 22 like the Syrian government is not really pro-trans.

Speaker 22 But

Speaker 5 the fact that this is just being like... This is going to be like across the board.

Speaker 22 Yes, everywhere. This is going to be everywhere in the world.

Speaker 22 If you want to get U.S. funds to save human lives, to stop the spread of diseases, you have to officially embrace transphobic policies.

Speaker 22 That's the stance of the United States government, that that matters more than stopping the spread of Ebola in the Congo.

Speaker 5 And this is particularly worrying for... you know, HIV preventative measures across the world as well.
Most of the language that's used there has been heavily targeted.

Speaker 5 We're just going to get a whole bunch of people sick and die

Speaker 5 because of these actions.

Speaker 4 Yeah, until it starts getting people sick and dead in this country.

Speaker 4 But we probably won't stop then.

Speaker 5 Probably not. James, I pivot to you on our semi-regular border update.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's me, the border guy. I was down at the United States border this weekend, the one with Mexico, not the Canada one.

Speaker 4 And when I got back from the border, I saw an announcement from the Pentagon, which announced the deployment of a striker brigade combat team and an aviation battalion.

Speaker 4 So what's a striker brigade combat team? You ask? Normally they're like 4,400 soldiers. In this case, they're sending 2,400 soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division based in Fort Carson in Colorado.

Speaker 4 Striker Brigade combat teams are based around strikers. What are strikers? They are armored fighting vehicles with eight wheels.

Speaker 22 They're pretty cool.

Speaker 4 I've hung out in a couple.

Speaker 22 A lot of them have fully automatic grenade launchers on the top. They have decent air conditioning.

Speaker 4 Big vehicle outside, small vehicle inside, as with all

Speaker 4 military vehicles. Great when you're six foot three like me.
But famously,

Speaker 4 not really something you can use for policing the border.

Speaker 22 No, honestly, a lot of arguments as to whether or not they were good at their stated role in warfare.

Speaker 4 Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 The Bradleys have been having a comeback in Ukraine. The Strikers,

Speaker 4 not so much. What What they are not good at is moving through incredibly rugged, mountainous grainlet stuff where I was on Saturday.

Speaker 22 This is something Chuds don't understand because a popular thing among Chuds is to take their Toyota Tundras or their F one fifties or their Jeep gladiators and send them down to this company in Florida that adds an extra axle and two more wheels so that they have six wheels because they think it makes truck go better.

Speaker 4 They just why?

Speaker 4 It ruins everything. It's a horrible thing to do to a truck.
Yeah, no, the people at Jeep have actually been thinking about how to make Jeep better for quite a while.

Speaker 4 Actually, very amusingly, the place I was down at the border this weekend,

Speaker 4 there's a very rugged road that you drive down and then you get off and you hike. And I remember a few years ago, a guy, fresh, minty fresh TRD tundra straight off the lot.

Speaker 4 And I've just negotiated this in a 1980 zero Toyota pickup

Speaker 4 with my friend standing in the back to counterbalance and add weight as we go. I offered a spot for this guy, he says no, he doesn't need it because it's a TRD, immediately destroys his work.

Speaker 4 Absolutely, oh, yeah, very funny, beautiful love to see it.

Speaker 5 These strikers are doing pretty, pretty good, is what I'm hearing.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so we're excited to see the strikers.

Speaker 22 Perfect vehicle for the terrain.

Speaker 4 The other vehicles that we're going to see are U860 Blackhawks and Chinooks from the General Support Aviation Battalion, uh, who are deploying alongside them.

Speaker 4 Uh, there are also about 1,100 soldiers from sustainment units, right? People who facilitate facilitate the, in this case, infantry and aviation deployment.

Speaker 4 There's some public affairs soldiers. There's people with logistics, people who are going to help make this deployment happen, right?

Speaker 4 In a press release, Northcom, that's the North American command of the

Speaker 4 United States Army, said, Tasks carried out by a second striker brigade combat team would include detection and monitoring, administrative support, transportation support, warehousing logistics support, vehicle maintenance and engineering support.

Speaker 4 Personnel will not conduct or be involved in interdiction or deportation operations. So this is the like the posse comatatus thing, right? They're not directly going to be doing cop stuff.

Speaker 4 They're just going to be helping Border Patrol do cop stuff, supposedly. But this is still very different to the previous deployment we saw.

Speaker 4 The previous deployments were of like engineers and military police.

Speaker 4 right so the engineers the marine corps engineers what they seem to do is get up every day and put razor wire on fence and then wait for someone to take photographs and put razor wire on fence again, right?

Speaker 22 And Marines love putting razor wire up. It's not the job that everyone hates the most.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. Everyone loves razor wire.
Handling razor wire is famously fun.

Speaker 22 Easy. Doesn't get you horribly cut the fuck up.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's just what you're signed up to do, I think.

Speaker 5 What are the MPs doing?

Speaker 4 They will be facilitating.

Speaker 4 CBP operations, I'm guessing, like SIGINT,

Speaker 4 like helping with intelligence, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 4 Probably anti-drone stuff. There's been a lot of talk about drones.
I have not seen any small drones.

Speaker 4 Most of the areas where I go on the border are federal wilderness or state wilderness, so drones aren't allowed there anyway, but I've never seen one.

Speaker 4 What makes this different is that these are infantry soldiers, right? Like this is a concentration of troops. Everyone in the military either kills people or helps people kill people.

Speaker 4 These are the killing people, guys, and girls. And, well, no, there are no non-binary.
Secret days. Yeah, yeah.
Secret days. And the closeted they-thems.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 If you're a closeted they-them in the military, best of luck to you. That's what makes it different, right? This is a significant concentration of troops on the border with one of our allies.

Speaker 4 This is coming as the United States has used drone overflights to pass information to Mexican authorities that resulted in the arrest of cartel personnel in Sinaloa, right?

Speaker 4 It is a significant change. And I imagine, based on what I've heard from sources, that we will see more of this, right? The US's deployable infantry troops will be coming to the border.

Speaker 4 It means that we might soon be seeing foot patrols, right?

Speaker 4 Soldiers on foot walking through the mountains to the border because we ain't going to see striker-mounted patrols out there if they want to keep their strikers.

Speaker 4 They're adding more helicopter assets, right, which can both move people to more remote areas and do more surveillance.

Speaker 5 Surveillance, I would assume. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, like when a hiker was shot down at the border a few weeks ago, and I was out there very quickly thereafter, and they used a UH-60 first, well, they actually didn't evacuate the person in the UH-60.

Speaker 4 They went in the UH60, evacuated them in a Eurocopter, and then another military Black Hawk was kind of flying over after that.

Speaker 4 And I'm guessing that was just to kind of provide cover for the, like the first responders, right, who were going there to,

Speaker 4 I think in that case, they were investigating the scene, the person had been evacuated. But

Speaker 4 there are very remote areas of the border, which probably are best accessed by helicopter. And so that's what they will be doing.

Speaker 4 But this does represent a significant concentration of combat troops on the border with our ally, which is not a normal thing to do.

Speaker 4 And it's worth bearing in mind that as we're doing troop buildups on the Mexican border, there are a lot of people in the Trump administration who

Speaker 4 want to do just full-on cross-border U.S. military operations in Mexico.
They want to do invasions. They want to do

Speaker 4 what they think of as hell actions.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's a lot of support for like drone strikes right now,

Speaker 4 which the terrorist designation does kind of pave a road to.

Speaker 4 But obviously, it's worth noting for those not familiar that Mexico is a different country and you don't just get to drone strike other countries. That's an act of war.

Speaker 5 Well, and speaking of they-thems in the military, I will do a quick follow-up before we go on break. Uh, we mentioned last week about efforts from the Navy to

Speaker 4 house trans

Speaker 4 naval

Speaker 5 members.

Speaker 4 Sailors, it's what they call it. Sailors, I guess

Speaker 5 I guess they kind of all are sailors, aren't they?

Speaker 5 But basically, house them with people matching their assigned gender at birth. Same thing with access to intimate spaces like bathrooms.

Speaker 5 This has escalated further to now a general quasi-ban of trans people from the military altogether with a few implementation paths towards this. A form of like, don't ask, don't tell.

Speaker 5 We will report on this more in the future as a part of a larger piece on the lavender scare currently happening across the government.

Speaker 5 But that did happen literally like a few hours after we record it.

Speaker 5 We got word that they are seeking to disband trans people from the military altogether. Anyway, we will go on break and return to talk terrifying.

Speaker 22 We're back. Hey, I wanted to note something I I was unaware of because I have not changed my friend's name in my phone, but Joey now goes by Aliyah Ayub.

Speaker 22 I apologize for the error there, but James corrected me. So we're good.
Teamwork makes a dream work.

Speaker 22 And never changing people's names in my phone makes, well, actually, I usually.

Speaker 57 I was going to say, I'm impressed you have a name saved in your phone.

Speaker 22 Well, Aaliyah is a friend, so I actually have their name saved in my phone. 90% of the texts coming at me at any given time is just a series of unlabeled phone numbers.
And it's chaos.

Speaker 22 I'm just guessing

Speaker 22 that people are who

Speaker 22 is someone I should be in contact with.

Speaker 5 That's absurd. Well, there's no tear ifs or buts about it, but the economy is in a bad spot.

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 4 I was going to do, I was going to do speaking of absurd, but no, no. Even worse.
Even worse.

Speaker 57 Garrison.

Speaker 4 You know what, Gare?

Speaker 22 I'm proud of you. That's almost as good as my rock the Casbah joke.

Speaker 5 Mia, do we want to do tariff talk?

Speaker 4 No, but

Speaker 4 we're doing it anyways.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 after those horrors, we have other horrors, question mark. So

Speaker 4 on Tuesday, Trump's tariffs on... Canada and Mexico and also an additional 10% tariff on China went into effect.
So these are 25% across the board tariffs.

Speaker 4 There's some, I think there's only like 10% on Canadian oil.

Speaker 5 Canadian energy. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah, like energy stuff. Weirdly, that's not also applied to Mexico, even though there's a shit ton of oil.
I don't know. And at sort of the last moment, there was a kind of

Speaker 4 he got called by all three of the heads of the big three auto manufacturers who were like, if you don't exclude auto tariffs, we're all going to die. So he's like pushed tariffs out for one month.

Speaker 4 They're suspended on automotive imports. We still don't know what the fuck that actually means because it's unclear whether he just means like cars and trucks or whether that also includes auto parts.

Speaker 4 Deeply unclear. There's also all tariff aluminum and steel imports he announced a tariff on in the speech.
The copper one we knew about.

Speaker 4 I don't think we knew about the aluminum and steel imports, which are new, which are also going to be sort of catastrophic. I want to read this amazing

Speaker 4 quote from CNBC.

Speaker 4 Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick said that Trump's Trump's tariff will cause quote higher prices, but he maintained that only some products would be affected and that price hikes would be temporary.

Speaker 5 Famously, price hikes are only temporary.

Speaker 4 Hold on, hold on. It gets better.
We haven't even got to the good part yet. Lutnick insisted that those rising prices should not be considered inflation.
Okay.

Speaker 4 As the president said last night, there's going to be a short period where there will be some higher prices on certain products, the cabinet secretary said on Fox News. It's not inflation.

Speaker 4 That's nonsense. Certain products for a short period of time, he said.

Speaker 4 Now, now, the definition of inflation, and I cannot emphasize this enough, is prices going up. So

Speaker 4 great, great stuff here.

Speaker 4 There's also, you know, as this has been unfolding, there have been reciprocal tariffs from Canada. The first round of negotiations between Trump and Trudeau basically went nowhere.

Speaker 4 Canada's putting tariffs on...

Speaker 4 And this is true of both Canada and China, who have both done reciprocal tariffs. They've been more limited.
They're only targeting sort of specific sectors.

Speaker 4 Well, the Chinese rates are lower. China's

Speaker 4 rates are really 10 to 15%.

Speaker 4 The big one from China, and I'm very confused about this whole, the way everyone's talking about this, because everyone only seems to be talking about Canada and Mexico in these, even though the tariff rate on China is now up to 20%.

Speaker 4 Yeah. He did it over two steps, right? Like that's

Speaker 4 he slid under the radar.

Speaker 4 You know, obviously, like, yeah, okay. So like the U.S.
and Mexico and the U.S. and Canada have the two largest trading relationships on earth.

Speaker 4 However, comma, the Chinese reciprocal tariffs are really going to hurt because one of the big things that they're targeting is U.S. soybean exports.

Speaker 4 Now, we do $12 billion of soybean exports per year. This matters enormously, though.

Speaker 4 It has an outsized impact regardless of sort of the dollar amounts here because Midwest farming, huge parts of it, is based on yearly rotations between soybeans and corn to maintain soil quality, right?

Speaker 4 Like the farm that I grew up near, like this is what they did, right?

Speaker 22 This is a massive portion of Midwest and agriculture functions off of this well and it's just also just like soybeans and corn are like primarily what human beings grow

Speaker 4 and rice like those are really the big three you can't you can't eat that corn but yeah well you don't but it's part of your food eventually it becomes food yeah it's corn syrup and shit but yeah well corn syrup and also it's you know what animals eat yeah yeah when they feed it to cattle and chickens yeah and so so this is this is going to have a massive disruption on American agriculture.

Speaker 4 Trump has also been talking about imposing a tax on all American agricultural exports, some sort of weird, like American autarky thing. So, here's the thing: people are calling this a tariff.

Speaker 4 This is not a tariff, you don't impose tariffs on something that you are exporting. That's not how this works.

Speaker 4 You know, like you can go back to a basic hey, division of powers, Congress has the power of taxation. Wait, how is he doing? Who knows? I don't know.

Speaker 4 We're so far beyond that. But, like, the thing that he's hinting at here, right? Like, if he really is trying to sort of like prevent all u.s agricultural exports

Speaker 4 this is apocalyptic yeah and it's also worth noting um this is something that's also been lost in the news but he's been talking about this he's been talking about doing these tariffs to the eu 25 across the board tariffs to the eu now what i think is important so the markets today on wednesday have been going back up they immediately tanked like tuesday this week was nasty like monday tuesday was yeah red and what's happening here is that none of this shit, none of the analysts, none of the people getting paid like fucking $30 million to you to do financial analysts or whatever the fuck, like none of these people, none of them thought these tariffs were actually going to happen.

Speaker 4 They all just assumed that they were, oh, he's not actually going to do it. He's not actually going to do it.
It's just negotiation. No, no.
He was, he's doing it. He was going to do it.

Speaker 4 There probably will be like sector by sector negotiations to get temporary lifts on them. But

Speaker 4 none of this shit was priced in. None of the financial analysts, like, no one was doing business planning or whatever.
Like, none of this shit was supposed to be real.

Speaker 4 And what's happening right now is sort of like they're latching on to this thing with some of the auto-terrorists being lifted for a month. Again, one month, not an actual lift, but one month.

Speaker 4 They're latching on to this and they're going, okay, maybe we can sort of reverse this. But this is the first moment that...

Speaker 4 the financial markets have actually had to grapple with the fact that Trump is going to do all of the shit that he says he's going to do.

Speaker 4 And like that afternoon, Bloomberg had a guy on like calling Trump a dictator and saying he wasn't going to have elections.

Speaker 4 We are beginning to see capital flight from the U.S.

Speaker 4 where investors are are openly talking about pulling their fucking money out of this country and pulling it somewhere else because it's no longer stable.

Speaker 4 And this is something that, you know, I think the next damn will be when the U.S.'s like credit rating gets downgraded.

Speaker 4 But we're starting to see the damn break on the financial class and all of these analysts and like people on Wall Street realizing that, no, he is going to continue to throw bombs at the entire world economy in order to sort of carry out his like, I want to be like the fucking big man empire guy.

Speaker 5 I mean, like Trudeau, I had a call with Trump on Wednesday, basically going, hey, what's what the fuck, man? I thought, I thought, I thought we had a deal.

Speaker 5 And Trump was like, well, I'm not seeing much progress on the whole fentanyl thing. And Trudeau's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

Speaker 5 And Trump then basically pointed towards him not being satisfied until there's a new Canadian government.

Speaker 5 Like, he's not going to want to lift these until Trudeau is out of office and ask Trudeau when the next Canadian election is.

Speaker 5 hinting towards the fact that he just is going to refuse to seriously negotiate with Trudeau and will wait until whoever the next guy is.

Speaker 5 Meanwhile, you have a post from the Chinese embassy in the U.S. saying, if war is what the U.S.
wants, be it a tariff war, a trade war, or any other type of war, we're ready to fight till the end.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I will say, I will say the guys they put on the embassy PR comms are dipshits. Like, those are not the guys running the Chinese government.

Speaker 4 Those are like the fucking clowns they put at these administrative posts to like scream about wolf warriors or whatever the fuck the reporting i've seen from inside the chinese government is that they also were like what the are you doing

Speaker 4 and they're they're trying to figure out like

Speaker 4 okay like how do you negotiate with this guy yeah like yeah and they're having real issues because like like for all for all of the shit the chinese government does like this is a government of capitalists they want to make money and they're looking at a guy who is willing to just blow the entire thing up Here's my pitch for what we should do with China, right?

Speaker 22 You know how China has this border conflict with India that could end the world, but usually just involves two groups of people with spears that were originally made in the 13th century having phalanx fights in the mountains?

Speaker 4 Yep.

Speaker 22 We should just send over a couple of thousand Marines and do that with China. Get it all out of our systems, this whole, all this war talk.

Speaker 22 Just have a couple thousand dudes have a big old spirit fight.

Speaker 22 We film the son of a bitch we get some drones we bring in maybe we bring in tarantino he'd be great to film the fucker you know we we really just have a good time with it and then we just go back to not not doing stuff like this

Speaker 4 i look i think if we if we get the u.s and china to compete each other in the u.

Speaker 4 against each other in the u.s special forces games and we show this to donald trump And we have the Chinese government take like a staged loss or something, we could solve most of our problems.

Speaker 22 You can just edit it to be whoever, like for both countries, right? You have an America version and a China version.

Speaker 4 We already do this.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So the last sort of serious thing that I want to talk about here is that this, especially the stuff that he's talking about with the EU, but also with sort of Canada.

Speaker 4 This has broken the sort of international coalition that all of these people have been setting up for a really long time, right?

Speaker 4 This whole sort of coalition of all the sort of world's right-wing governments like coming together in this like national thing.

Speaker 5 And like

Speaker 5 they're really fucked now.

Speaker 4 Like the Canadian right was just like about to take power and they might not now.

Speaker 4 And even if they do take power, they're going to have to like deal with the fact that they've all been like fucking maniac Trump supporters this whole time and Trump has just been like fucking their entire country.

Speaker 4 And like these people are now talking about like, again, like shutting off power to the U.S. And this is happening all over the world with all of these fascist parties who've been allied with the U.S.

Speaker 4 and are now having to grapple with the fact that the U.S.

Speaker 4 is just going to, it's just gonna fuck them.

Speaker 4 Really, the thing that reminds me a lot is like the situation you got at the end of the 70s in East Asia with the communists, where it was like, okay, so we have three nominally communist governments on the border with each other, right?

Speaker 4 You have China, you have Cambodia, and you have Vietnam, and I guess you have Laos. And then those three governments, instead of like forming a united bloc, like all go to war with each other.

Speaker 4 And that's like sort of what we're seeing with the fascists right now.

Speaker 4 It's like, because Trump has decided to just be like, fuck it, like we're just going to do tariffs on everyone, it has, it is really starting to terrorist coalition apart.

Speaker 4 And hopefully this rolls back a bunch of their gains everywhere else in the world. And yeah, this deep leech shit.

Speaker 5 And the things Trump is using for like leverage here beyond even tariffs, like cutting out Canada from the Five Eyes intelligence group, halting intel sharing with Ukraine.

Speaker 4 Very, very drastic steps

Speaker 5 in terms of national security and intel sharing.

Speaker 22 I mean, it's just deeply clear that what's happening is we're ending every single thing the U.S. used to do that Trump does not see as a direct financial benefit.
Yeah.

Speaker 22 And largely aligning ourselves with Russia against every state that does not have the physical power to stop us.

Speaker 4 Yep.

Speaker 5 Well, that does it for us today. I know on Tuesday night, Trump did a speech to a joint session of Congress.

Speaker 5 We have a whole episode on that that released yesterday because there was just so much to talk about.

Speaker 5 So if you want to hear our thoughts on that, you can check out yesterday's episode on his congressional speech full of a lot of

Speaker 5 a summary, yes, because the speech was very long, focused a lot on trans people, focused a lot on the border, talked about national security, really skipped over the economy because.

Speaker 4 No, guys are great.

Speaker 5 Because that's not really going too good.

Speaker 4 Keep shooting holes in it.

Speaker 5 Really skipped over that, focused more on trans people as the single greatest threat facing this country.

Speaker 5 But yes, if you want to hear about that, check out yesterday's episode on the It Could Happen Here feed.

Speaker 4 The shortest summary possible speech bad speech bad yeah speech bad the the era of woke is over would be the other summary i give yeah if the era of woke is over where where you're employed if uh the era of woke has ended your employment and you'd like to reach out to us you can using our proton mail address uh that doesn't mean that it's it's not like if you're not using proton then it's not end-to-end encrypted if you are then it's encrypted but it doesn't mean it's necessarily totally safe so you need to do what you think is best uh it is coolzone tips at proton.me if you don't work for government but you do work for elon musk in another capacity it would also be very funny to hear from you about what that is like uh so yeah coolzone tips at proton.me increasingly relevant considering that uh social security layoffs have started and they're now seeking to cut possibly upprints of 50 of the social security workforce so yeah and the irs so uh that i'm sure that's going to work out great for government revenues I'm sure everything will be fine, and America will be back on top in no time.

Speaker 5 It is back.

Speaker 4 America is back. I learned that last night.

Speaker 5 We reported the news.

Speaker 1 Yes, we certainly did.

Speaker 4 We reported the news.

Speaker 22 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

Speaker 58 It Could Happen Here is a production of CoolZone Media.

Speaker 58 For more podcasts from CoolZone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 58 You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 8 Hey guys, it's Erin Andrews from Calm Down with Erin and Carissa.

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