Behind Betrayal with ABCNews Studios

This is an iHeart podcast.

Are there two sides to every story?

Academy Award nominee Robin Wright stars in The Girlfriend on Prime, a psychological thriller that will make you question everything.

Laura has the perfect life and a son she'd die for, but when he brings home his new girlfriend Cherry, played by Olivia Cook, something feels off.

Also starring Lori Davidson, The Girlfriend is a twisted game of cat and mouse where nothing is what it seems.

Don't miss the girlfriend, streaming now exclusively on Prime.

Sometimes the truth is just a matter of perspective.

What does Zinn really give you?

Not just smoke-free nicotine satisfaction, but also real freedom to do more of what you love, when and where you want to do it.

Why bring Zen along for the ride?

Because America's number one nicotine pouch opens up all the possibilities of right now.

With Zin, you don't just find freedom, you keep finding it.

Find your Zen.

Learn more at Zen.com.

Warning, this product contains nicotine.

Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

Since 1983, Nissan has been building award-winning vehicles right here in America.

And this summer, they're making it easier to drive one home.

No new tariffs, just lower MSRPs on the Rogan Pathfinder.

So you can get the car you want at a price that feels right.

But don't wait.

These deals are only here for a limited time and while supplies last.

See why Nissan is number one for new vehicle quality among mainstream brands.

Learn more at nissanusa.com.

For JD Power 2025 award information, visit jdpower.com/slash awards.

Look, school is starting and I'm just a kid.

And let's be honest, I'm not gonna shop for myself.

But we can get up to 40% off back-to-school essentials on Uber Eats.

Did I mention I need poster board for my science fair, lunch for my field trip, and unlined note cards for my history quiz tomorrow?

Or were they lined?

Anyway, Uber Eats has like all the back-to-school stuff on there.

So come on, let's order now on Uber Eats and get up to 40% off.

We're cool, right?

Cool.

Not literally everything.

Promotion ends 916 is subject to change or cancellation.

Exclusions may apply.

Check out for availability.

Hey, Betrayal fans, I have exciting news to share.

Season three of Betrayal is now a docuseries on Hulu.

It's the gripping story of Stacey Tyler and the doctor who betrayed them.

See the voices you've come to know in Betrayal, Under His Eye, streaming now on Hulu.

Now, here's a discussion with the people who made that happen.

Hey, everyone, I'm back today with John Hirsch, the executive producer and director of Betrayal, the DocuSeries.

Hi, Dre.

Thanks so much.

It's great to be back here with your audience.

I'm really excited about today's episode because we have two of our amazing colleagues from ABC News Studio here with us,

Muriel Pearson and Mike Kelly.

Hi, guys.

But why don't you go ahead and introduce yourselves to our audience and also to the host of Betrayal, Andrea Gunning.

I know.

It's so nice to meet you guys.

Hey, Andreas, nice to see you.

I'm Mike Kelly.

I lead the team here at ABC News Studios.

And Andrea, I'm Muriel Pearson.

I'm the executive producer on the ABC News Studios side who's been working valiantly with John on this amazing series.

Yeah, thank you for all you do.

I hear your names all the time.

Obviously, I'm super involved in the creative and like everything that goes in on the podcast, but I'm mostly on set and doing like interviews for the TV show.

So I don't get a lot of the posts and like, so I don't really get to see you guys.

So it's really nice to spend this time and I really am appreciative.

I have a ton of questions because we've never really chatted before.

If you guys don't mind, I would love to just dive in.

Let's jump in.

So I'm so curious.

I mean, I obviously love betrayal.

I'm betrayal all the way.

But where did the initial idea to turn the podcast into the docuseries come from?

Like, how did that start?

Well, we have a small team of people focused on developing new ideas, and they're like constantly scouring the marketplace for IP that resonates with audiences.

And so it didn't take a lot of investigating for them to find Betrayal Podcasts because it was so huge out of the gate, right?

Big, gigantic hit.

And then, you know, around that time that our team sort of found Betrayal as fans, I think the Glass team came and had a general introduction with us.

And we quickly decided there's a real partnership to be had here.

And so, you know, after a bunch of conversation, we decided to say, yeah, let's adapt this into a television program.

How do you guys know when a podcast has the potential to be a successful TV series?

I think if a podcast is successful in its own right, it's obvious that there's interest in the story.

But not every podcast automatically lends itself to visual or television adaptation, right?

To be successful on TV, just like a podcast, you need an amazing story first and foremost.

But you also need characters that are visually compelling.

You need an archive to bring the history and the background of the story to life.

And if it's true crime, you need kind of the police force or the investigative team to help bring that side of the story to life too.

You know, sometimes people are only willing to participate in the audio format and they're not willing to appear on camera, so you have to have that piece too.

So it's all those different pieces have to come together to turn a really successful audio story into great television.

There's probably other things that Muriel or John could add.

Well, Well, I'm going to actually speak specifically to betrayal, Drea, because there is no question that this topic we instantly recognized would have an incredible resonance with our audience.

You know,

a lot of the people who are in our audience, I mean, we look at the demos, and it's a predominantly female audience.

And this idea of

trust broken, of double lives, of

a betrayal of what is the most intimate thing that you could possibly imagine is incredibly appealing to that audience.

Because, you know, people look at these stories and they try and see parallels with their own lives.

And I think particularly with betrayal, and you know this because of the podcast, people have resonance with this because this has happened to them.

And the many, many women that you guys have profiled and the ones that we've profiled here, I mean, the response that we get is that emotional response to how do other people respond to this

thing that honestly they sometimes think they're all alone in, that they alone have been betrayed, and that there's a kind of comfort in knowing that you're not alone and to share that experience.

So we knew that from the beginning with betrayal, that it would be successful.

Yeah, that really speaks to the community that's developed over the last several years as betrayals become bigger and bigger.

And it speaks to the type of feedback that we get both on the podcast side and on the television side from listeners, from viewers who they see themselves in these people.

They see the parallels and that relatability obviously goes a long way.

But it's also, it's really refreshing.

And

this is one of the reasons why we love you guys as partners is the understanding and acknowledgement of the challenges of taking a podcast and turning it into a television show, that willingness of participants, the archive that needs to be strong, the investigative beats that true crime fans, you know, kind of want to latch into.

And, you know, having all those ingredients to come together in something that someone will watch for three consecutive episodes is not an easy task.

And

it's been a lot of fun.

It's been a big challenge, but I think we've learned a lot about, you know, what are what all those ingredients are and how they need to mesh together for these stories to really work.

There aren't betrayals with strangers.

This is a thing that's intimate, that happens between people that you love and care about, the people that are closest to you.

And so, when we're looking at stories for the podcast, it's about the betrayal, but it's equally about the love story.

And what you guys do so well with on the TV side, and it's something that I often forget, and is usually the most shocking part when I'm watching it, is seeing the love story unfold visually.

Because it's one thing to hear it, but with the archival and how you guys build, especially in season three with what Justin meant for Stacey

and her life and what she was able to provide her kids and that she had made it.

I mean, it was so well done.

I mean, John and Matt have been real masters at creating that feeling of intimacy in the edit.

I mean, it all comes down to the beginning in the archive.

I mean, I just think, John, you guys have done an incredible job in just making the kind of fairy tale.

that we all dream of, that you want that happily ever after, that you want to find the perfect man.

And that's what makes the betrayal so terrible is to see these women finding in very different ways, whether it's first love

or, you know, I went through a few people, it didn't work out, and here was the guy who changed my life, who made me feel great about myself.

And, you know, that's just, that is the storyline that has been so effective with this and powerful because you totally buy into that.

And it's a betrayal because it's the thing that you wanted most and that you felt that you were safe.

Stacy felt she was safe for the first time and she was never in more peril.

One of the things we really focus on in everything that we do at ABC News Studios, but betrayal is so emblematic of that is we want to find first-person narratives, right?

These are mostly women in the case of betrayal telling their own story from their own perspective, right?

And that's what we strive in everything that we do.

Like either we have the victim or we have the perpetrator in first person.

And hopefully we have both, right?

So we can tell a really nuanced, complex story.

And every season of betrayal, we've been able to do that.

And I think that's part of the reason why these have been so successful.

Yeah, we always look at it as

we want the audience to, you know, be along for the ride, the good, the bad, the ugly, all those things.

But most importantly, we look at how we're going to tease the turn.

And then when we get to the turn, we want to make sure that the audience really is rooting for our main character.

And it's easy to root for Stacy when you, when you learn about about her backstory and you understand all the things that she went through with her first marriage, being a single mom, you know, some of the struggles that she went through, and then meeting this, you know, this rising star in the medical field and Justin Rutherford and kind of having that fairy tale, you know, it's not that we want to just pull the rug out from under the audience, but we really want them to feel what Stacey felt.

And in this case, also what her children, Tyler and Michaela, felt and the way that their world had grown into something that they could be proud of, that they felt so great about.

And then it makes it all that much more devastating when the truth starts to come out about what Justin was doing.

And then obviously in this story, there are multiple layers to the way those terrible truths roll out because, I mean, it's such a sinister story when you step back and look at the whole thing.

It's really, really devastating.

There isn't a single woman on this earth that can't listen to Stacey.

And when she's expressing in episode one, how she feels about herself and her body that doesn't relate.

It doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, what you look like.

That is so relatable.

And I remember seeing it for the first time and just crying.

And you guys just, you immediately have the audience buy in in that moment.

It's like, that's the emotional access with the audience of, I feel that too, and I'm connecting to Stacy.

So that was incredible.

Obviously, in season three, Stacy and Tyler's story has difficult themes.

And we, you usually don't see them addressed on TV.

It could be taboo.

Some people shy away from it.

What made you guys feel comfortable at ABC News Studios to go forward with Stacey and Tyler's story?

Were there any concerns, goals that you guys had?

You know, there are always concerns when you pull, as you say,

out of a place where you've been before.

I mean, we've been, we have, the familiar

territory is just love betrayed.

But I think that by being presented with a new story, they brought it so much deeper into a family's betrayal, right?

It's not just between a man and a woman.

It's between a woman and her son and a stepson and her stepfather.

We just saw that the possibility of the depths, the emotional depths of that and the exploration of what that can do to a family and the on the other side of it, how a family survives it was very interesting.

And, you know, I mean, John and I talked about this a lot.

I mean, it's story arc is one thing about just what happened.

Emotional story arc is something else.

And again, I think that is something really unique, Drea, to your podcast.

It gives you an opportunity to go into an emotional storytelling, story arc, where you understand what the high point was, how you get to the low point, right?

Because it's not all at once.

You can't really totally believe, right, that this is happening to you, except that it is, and how you emerge on the other side.

It's a real story of self-redemption and family redemption that we found so intriguing and so important,

again, because it is something that we think that our audience experiences universally.

And we want to be sensitive and careful with victims' stories too and how they want to you know tell their own story as i said before in this case stacy is telling from her own perspective and tyler is too and i think having those first person accounts in this circumstance with these difficult stories is really important yeah i remember andre a conversation that you and i had before you even went into production on the podcast of season three of just how to get into the very difficult nature of this topic and kind of when and how to reveal certain aspects of it because you have so many layers to it as i mentioned i just remember feeling like, yes, these are challenges, but they're also opportunities because you don't see these types of stories on television very often.

And when I started, when you shared with me some of the facts and figures of people who've been through what Tyler went through and how much more common it is than any of us would ever think, I, you know, it started to become a little less scary and a little less daunting of how we would do this.

And then I think the growth that Tyler has shown, even from, you know, the early days of production on the podcast to where he is now.

And I think for people who tune into the podcast and then watch the show, they're going to see this kid, you know, 19, 20 years old now, who is just so incredibly strong and has shown so much resilience.

And it's a credit to his mom, it's a credit to his entire family, but it's really unique.

Let's be real.

Life happens.

Kids spill, pets shed, and accidents are inevitable.

Find a sofa that can keep up at washable sofas.com.

Starting at just $699,

our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out.

So you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry-free living.

Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics.

They're kid-proof, pet-friendly, and built for everyday life.

Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want.

Neat flexibility?

Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment.

Plus, they're earth-friendly and trusted trusted by over 200,000 happy customers.

It's time to upgrade to a stress-free, mess-proof sofa.

Visit washable sofas.com today and save.

That's washable sofas.com.

Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Are there two sides to every story?

Academy Award nominee Robin Wright stars in the girlfriend on Prime, a spine-tingling psychological thriller that will make you question everything you think you know.

Laura has the dream job, job, the perfect husband, and a son she'd die for.

But when her beloved Daniel brings home his new girlfriend Cherry, played by Olivia Cook, something feels off.

Is Cherry the sweet, innocent girl she appears to be?

Or is there something more manipulative beneath the surface?

And how far will a mother go to protect her son?

Also starring Lori Davidson, The Girlfriend is a twisted game of cat and mouse where nothing is what it seems, and everyone has something to hide.

Don't miss the girlfriend, streaming now exclusively on Prime.

Sometimes the truth is just a matter of perspective.

I used to think home security was just an alarm that goes off after a break-in, scaring the intruder off and maybe getting a neighbor's attention if you're lucky.

But that's reactive.

By the time someone's inside your home, it's already too late.

Your feeling of safety is gone.

That's why I use SimplySafe.

Real security should stop a crime before it even starts.

And SimplySafe does does exactly that.

I love SimplySafe because their system gives me total peace of mind knowing my home is protected 24-7.

Their smart AI-powered cameras can spot threats outside your home and alert SimplySafe's professional monitoring agents instantly.

Those agents jump into action and can use two-way audio to confront the person, trigger sirens and spotlights to scare them off, and even request police dispatch all while the intruder is still outside.

That's not just an alarm.

That's real proactive protection.

Join the more than 4 million Americans who trust SimplySafe every day, including me.

With a 60-day money-back guarantee and no long-term contracts, you've got nothing to lose.

Visit simplysafe.com/slash betrayal to claim 50% off a new system.

That's simplysafe.com slash betrayal.

There's no safe like SimplySafe.

There's a lot going on in Hollywood.

How are you supposed to stay on top of it all?

Variety has the solution.

Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new Daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

Where do you see the business actually heading?

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co-editor-in-chief, Cynthia Littleton.

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Daily Variety, and listen now.

To see someone who's been through what he's been through and under the stress and the pressure and the emotional turmoil that he's been through to come out and be as strong and as resilient as he is now, it almost like it flipped in my mind from being like, Oh man, this is scary.

This is going to be hard to tell to, you know what?

Let's lean into our strengths here.

We've got an incredibly strong character here.

I'm curious what you guys are seeing on your side about the audience.

Do you feel like the audience is changing?

Are they becoming more empathetic?

Are they becoming more open to discussing tougher topics?

You know, you know, obviously the season involves a story that is makes some people recoil.

As, and, and as a producer i leaned in you guys leaned in you know um are you seeing a change in you know the weather here with audiences appetite for stories like these we definitely see it and in in my other life uh before i was with abc news studios i was with 2020 so i was deeply into the true crime world and here's what's interesting i would say i mean you could only almost chart it to within the last five years maybe a little bit more people

really

were less interested in the straight storyline

and more interested in the emotional experience they really did not like the way that there was a much more old-fashioned however you're going to term it way of looking at the victim as the victim right

that it was a story about the perpetrator, that it was a story about the how done it, who done it, you know, how was he caught.

But that a journey of the person

you know who was who for whom all these terrible things was perpetrated that was not something that was front and center until somewhat more recently I mean with stories like Gilgo Beach right

and that kind of story has kind of risen in popularity because it offers a different bandwidth than just crime.

It gives it more complexity because you are exploring,

again, an emotional journey.

And I think it's fascinating.

I think it's partially actually an age thing.

I think younger viewers have more interest in a different kind of storytelling.

And maybe it's made all of us better storytellers.

I love the shift that we're in the middle of right now because having, being a veteran of true crime, it used to be investigative beats, investigative beats, investigative beats.

And that's if you didn't have enough of those and if they weren't deep enough and if they didn't drive the entire narrative, then there was sort of a shying away from those types of stories.

But I think, Mike, I think you hit the nail on the head.

It's about great first-person storytelling.

And we've talked about the intimacy.

We've talked about being along for that ride.

And I think if you've got a great story and you've got a great storyteller and you've got all these other elements we've talked to, the investigative beats of how the legal side of it unfolded almost become way less important.

I mean, they do become way less important.

And certainly they have been in the first three seasons of Betrayal.

And as a producer, it's been really fun and refreshing to work that way and not be constantly thinking about, okay, do we have X number of investigative beats per act?

Like has been the directive for so long in True Crime.

And it's, and it's, frankly, I think it's a little tired.

And I think, yes, the audience is getting.

younger, but they're also getting more open-minded to being in these more intimate spaces as opposed to just like, well, let's follow good police work.

I mean, in betrayal, you know this better than anyone, Drea, because you have talked to them.

You talk about the love story, but there's a love story going on between Tyler and his mother.

I mean, there's a totally different aspect of it, right?

Where he makes choices that he might not have made for her.

And she feels what she feels because of where she's put him.

And how they work that out together because they love each other is something kind of phenomenally amazing and human.

He deeply loves his mother and he loves his family as a family guy.

And he would have, I mean, he says it himself.

He would have gone to the grave with this information because he didn't want her to lose what she lost.

That's how much, that's how much he loved her, you know?

And a huge part of our show is not just showing these people's wounded parts, the victim, right?

It's about showing them as fully formed human beings and the love there that's in the family and the love that existed there.

I'm interested to ask you guys, I mean, I think I just, I spoke to a little while ago about, I have my answer, but how did the visual aspect of TV open up this story for you guys even more?

Wow, that is so complicated because I was actually going to ask you another question, which is like, because some of these stories have been on podcasts, you know, in your mind, you start thinking, oh, this person must look like this.

I was just talking to my mom about this this morning.

Like, literally, she was like blown away.

Yeah.

But

I'm like curious because they have created this physical ethos around these people, which may be quite different.

They may not be brunette.

They may not be, you know, whatever it is.

But

I think it's fascinating.

But.

I don't know.

I mean,

I think that however they

look, and sometimes I think that people lose a little bit by seeing too much, right?

But in this case,

the person, the people that they were, the personalities that they were, kind of let all of that, once you're introduced to it, fall by the wayside, right?

And I think there's a magic in like...

converting the audio and as an audience member, it's just in your imagination, right?

What these people look like to then see them for real.

These are real people experiencing real emotions.

And it's just a different kind of empathy I think that the audience has for these characters.

And when something works in both mediums, it's just an absolute home run, I think, to be able to get it right

on both platforms.

You know, one note about the television part of it.

John and I, John, you really have been the most amazing partner.

I mean, we have had many nerdy conversations about, you know, the technique, the technique of it, the television technique of it.

and you know there are many ways that you can approach this but I think John and I really came to a center of wanting the recreation to be as realistic as possible which meant simple things like you know using natural light letting the cameras move more like the eye would take you rather than you know setting the the cameras on pedestals and having this more stately lit feel I mean we really wanted to match the rawness of the emotions with something that would visually match with that.

And we talked a lot about it.

We really did.

And John was sending me, you know, samples while he was in the field.

I just thought it was great.

I mean, it was a wonderful collaboration

and developing that look for it.

Well, I appreciate the sort of...

that little extra push that you guys gave us.

I think in the first two seasons, we were with the recreations a little bit more in that dreamlike space where it felt, it didn't felt necessarily as raw or as real.

And I think adding in a lot more handheld camera movement and just sort of making sure that we paid a lot of attention to little things with our angles.

But the audience would be amazed.

And maybe we'll show some BTS photos of how many lights it takes to make it look like it's natural light.

You know, because it's every light in the truck comes out to get that look.

But it's fun.

And it's a fun challenge for the team and for me.

I mean, my recreation team is amazing.

And it's a group of people that I've worked with a lot on various different things.

And we have a lot of different techniques that we like, but it was nice to kind of be like, okay, well, here's what we did on season two that we liked.

Here's what we think we could do better.

And take that feedback and apply it to what we did in season three.

And now it's like, I can't wait to do this next batch of recrease for what's coming next.

You know, just keep making it feel more raw and more real and more connected to the audience.

I have one final question.

What do you guys want audiences to take away away from season three?

Anybody?

You know, I'm just going to go back to what I said earlier.

I mean, at the risk of repeating myself, I want people to know that they're not alone, that it is a universal experience,

what they're seeing.

And I also think that

Tyler, the strength of what Tyler brings to it, many, many strengths, is not to be afraid of that experience.

You know, I think people can be because they are so overcome by shame that they go into themselves because they cannot bear, you know, the fear of sharing that experience.

And I do hope that people see this and realize that they should be a little less fearless, be courageous like Tyler, and realize they're not alone.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

Can't say anything better than that.

I know.

I'm like, I don't think I have a better takeaway.

You just crushed.

Yeah.

I agree with Muriel.

I mean, I think there's a real opportunity here for anybody who sees this who might be going through something similar to what Tyler has gone through and what the family's been through to just, you know, see that resilience, see that strength, and see the fact that

by sharing and by digging in and acknowledging what's happened to you and the control that you can take of your life and how much power you really do have when you're feeling powerless.

I hope that it inspires people.

And when I say that, I say it with in the back of my mind, knowing Anthony Edwards' experience that he shared on the podcast and he shares in the show with us, having gone through something similar to what Tyler went through and holding on to it for decades.

And here's, you know, here is, here's, for all intents and purposes, a kid, a 19-year-old kid who had the strength to come forward.

Well, 16 when he came forward.

It's, it's really remarkable.

It's unbelievable.

Well, I tackled everything I wanted to chat chat with you guys about.

I don't know if you guys have any questions for me and John, but you guys are brilliant and so well spoken.

And I'm just grateful for everything.

Truly grateful.

It's been amazing working with this whole entire team.

And we have many big plans to come between ABC News Studios and the Glass team.

And so I'm looking forward to telling the audience more about that in the future, too.

Dre, you're an amazing host.

I mean, seeing you in the field with the families, you brought out the best in them.

You really did.

I mean, I really loved seeing you in the field, and I hope we'll see a lot more of it.

Thank you.

It starts like any other night.

The glass of red, the cozy blanket, then the drop.

The stains so dark, so stubborn, it might as well have been a crime scene.

But this isn't your average couch.

This is Anna Bay.

Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable, and ready for whatever your life, your kids, or your ex throws at it.

And here's the kicker.

Starting at just $6.99, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem.

Fully washable, stain-resistant, and built to hide even the darkest offenses.

Right now, get up to 60% off because no one should have to live with a stain that won't quit.

Anna Bay, the only mystery you won't be losing sleep over.

Shop washable sofas.com today.

That's washable sofas.com.

There's a lot going on in Hollywood.

How are you supposed to stay stay on top of it all?

Variety has the solution.

Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new Daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

Where do you see the business actually heading?

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co-editor-in-chief Cynthia Littleton.

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Daily Variety, and listen now.

Drew and Sue and Eminem's Minister And baking the surprise birthday cake for Lou.

And Sue forgetting that her oven doesn't really work.

And Drew remembering that they don't have flour.

And Lou getting home early from work, which he never does.

And Drew and Sue using the rest of the tubes of Eminem's minis as party poppers instead.

I think this is one of those moments where people say, it's the thought that counts.

Eminem's, it's more fun together.

What does Zen really give you?

Not just smoke-free nicotine satisfaction, but also real freedom to do more of what you love, when and where you want to do it.

Why bring Zen along for the ride?

Because America's number one nicotine pouch opens up all the possibilities of right now.

With Zinn, you don't just find freedom, you keep finding it.

Find your Zen.

Learn more at Zinn.com.

Warning, this product contains nicotine.

Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

This is an iHeart podcast.