S3: E6 – Complexity

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Speaker 3 It starts like any other night.

Speaker 4 The glass of red, the cozy blanket, then the drop.

Speaker 6 The stain so dark, so stubborn, it might as well have been a crime scene.

Speaker 8 But this isn't your average couch.

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Speaker 17 We're dealing with a person who does not have empathy, who does not have morality, and who is able to completely shapeshift their behavior for their own selfish motivations and agenda.

Speaker 1 I'm Andrea Gunning. This is Betrayal Season 3, Episode 6.

Speaker 1 Complexity.

Speaker 1 Justin's sentencing for rape and and voyeurism marked an ending, an end to Justin's reign of terror, to years of manipulation and abuse, and to the Rutherford family, worrying about whether justice would be served.

Speaker 1 Justin would be locked up for decades. Tyler was finally free of him.

Speaker 7 I told everyone, I'm ready to stop letting this shape our life. Everything's done now.
I was done with it.

Speaker 1 But Stacey wasn't done. For two years, she carried the weight of guilt, shame, horror, and deep sadness, and was nurturing wounds of her own.

Speaker 1 During many conversations with Stacey, she expressed sincere interest in examining her own grief and emotions surrounding the aftermath. It's not something that comes naturally to her.

Speaker 1 After Justin was sentenced, her process was just starting. And to her credit, she was completely honest about it.

Speaker 16 When court was finally over after three years of dealing with this stuff, my dad was like, I'm glad it's over. We can put this all behind us and you can start moving on with your life.

Speaker 1 From the moment Stacy learned the truth about Justin, she prioritized her kids and their healing. As you can imagine, she was concerned about Tyler and focused her energy on his needs.

Speaker 1 And then there was the support that Michaela and the Littles needed as well. So there was little to no space for herself.

Speaker 1 I've gotten to know Tyler and Michaela over the last few months, and I can confidently say that Stacy raised two bright and emotionally intelligent individuals.

Speaker 1 They were old enough to understand that Stacy was putting on a brave face, and they worried about her.

Speaker 16 When the older kids would ask me how I was doing, I would always just say to them, as long as you're okay, I'm okay.

Speaker 1 Stacy was strong for her kids. And when it seemed like the family was finding their footing, the grief she had been suppressing reared its ugly head.

Speaker 18 I spent so much time trying to tend to this and tend to that and keep this going. And as far as my own grief, I feel like I'm just now starting to kind of get into it.

Speaker 1 But then there was this to reckon with. How could she make sense of her own grief, let alone explain it to other people?

Speaker 1 She was ashamed of her thoughts and feelings. So we looked for someone who could help Stacy work through everything she was experiencing.
and maybe in the process enlighten the rest of us.

Speaker 1 We introduced Stacey to Jordan Dan. She is a licensed psychologist, psychoanalyst, author, teacher, and speaker.

Speaker 1 She is also the author of Somatic Therapy for Healing Trauma and the creator of the Relationship Transformation Method. Stacy and Jordan allowed us to record their sessions.

Speaker 1 If you listened to Betrayal Season 1 and 2, you heard a similar process with Jennifer Faison and Ashley Lytton.

Speaker 1 I would like to preface this episode by saying that for the next 20 minutes, we're going to explore the many emotions, emotions, thoughts, and shame Stacy was left to work through as a critical step to her healing.

Speaker 1 I also want to note that in our next episode, we're going to focus on Tyler and his healing journey. He's going to meet with a beloved Hollywood actor who shares a similar story.

Speaker 1 At Betrayal, we don't believe in zero-sum thinking. There was the harm done to Tyler, but Stacy was also wounded in her own way.

Speaker 1 It's important for us to hold space for their individual experiences as humans.

Speaker 1 Hearing some of the complicated feelings survivors of betrayal trauma struggle with can be hard to understand if you have not been through it. And sure, it's easy to judge.

Speaker 1 Compassion requires going deeper. Here is Jordan Dan.

Speaker 17 People have difficulty tolerating uncomfortable feelings.

Speaker 17 It's easier to be in absolutes because you don't have to feel and be with the messiness.

Speaker 1 Absolutes, as in you're either good or evil.

Speaker 17 As Stacy holds the complexity of both the betrayal and the horror and the pain, she's really oscillating between the reality of this violent behavior, this trauma that her son has experienced, and also the relationship she thought she was in that she is actually just starting to grieve.

Speaker 1 Stacy was and still is in a lot of pain. Calling back to the good times, thinking of happy memories, the life they once lived, feels like a betrayal, betraying her son, betraying herself.

Speaker 16 If I think of the good things, I feel like I'm a bad mom. That's a slap in the face to my child that he hurt.

Speaker 16 I think that's that's what hurts me the most is knowing that I was the one that brought someone into their life that would do something like this to them.

Speaker 1 But Jordan doesn't see it that way.

Speaker 17 Of course, hindsight is 2020.

Speaker 17 To say, I wish I had done something is completely understandable.

Speaker 17 Children do everything in their power to hide what is happening to them.

Speaker 17 Tyler had so much at stake, not only his own attachment to Justin, his own safety, the positive feelings that were a part of such an abusive relationship,

Speaker 17 but also his feelings of responsibility towards his mom, towards the whole family.

Speaker 17 Most children,

Speaker 17 the abuse is actually easier to tolerate than the danger and fear of actually saying what's happening to them.

Speaker 17 And I think it's easiest to understand in the context of children with abusive caregivers.

Speaker 17 To be with the reality of a person who they are dependent upon for survival and is cruel and violent is impossible.

Speaker 17 And so they have to separate those two aspects of the person.

Speaker 17 And often, because it's too impossibly painful for a child to see their parent as bad, the child ends up seeing themselves as bad.

Speaker 1 Stacy examining her own part of where things went wrong is a good thing.

Speaker 17 As parents, we do fail. Even with our best intentions, there are moments where we do not offer the protection, the care that our children deserve.
And that's just a part of being human.

Speaker 17 Her ability to feel that she failed in her responsibility of protection of her son is actually a really healthy thing.

Speaker 1 And how could Stacey offer that protection when Justin was so good at hiding who he really was?

Speaker 1 Did she really know him or the life she was leading at all?

Speaker 16 When you get to where I'm at now,

Speaker 16 You know, you question yourself and you think, was it ever what I thought it was?

Speaker 16 Was anything that I ever felt real?

Speaker 1 Think about the weight of that. If nothing was real.

Speaker 1 The love, the marriage, how are you supposed to reconcile all the time you spent? Those hours, those years?

Speaker 1 That's the substance of your life, your life story. Is it no longer supposed to be of value because of someone else's deception?

Speaker 16 I question that all the time.

Speaker 2 And I don't know why I need to know.

Speaker 16 There's this part of me that just wants to know, like, you know what, that part of him wasn't sick.

Speaker 1 It's the marriage and relationship dynamic that she misses. And it doesn't just live in Stacy's mind.
I've seen dozens of the Rutherford family photos and videos.

Speaker 1 They appear as a happy and loving family. Stacy and Justin stand close together and look like a couple in love.

Speaker 1 Justin plays the part.

Speaker 17 I really have have a lot of compassion for that repetitive thought that Stacy has. It's really the darkest of possibilities to face is actually

Speaker 17 nothing about

Speaker 17 this person, nothing about the memories we shared together are real.

Speaker 1 Stacy has searched for that validation.

Speaker 18 I have had conversations with his best friend where I've cried to him and said, do you think he ever loved me?

Speaker 18 And he has told me so many times, he loved you. I know he did.
When Justin and I got together, I didn't feel like I had to do anything for his love.

Speaker 18 I just felt like he just loved me for me and I loved him for him.

Speaker 18 So then, when it slaps you in your face that that's not who you married, and that person didn't love you, they just wanted what you had. You were just the through way to what he really wanted.

Speaker 18 You start to think,

Speaker 2 wow,

Speaker 18 did you just pretend to love me?

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When your alarm goes off in the morning, do you feel energized? Or are you tempted by the snooze button again and again?

Speaker 1 If you're dragging yourself out of bed, fighting brain fog and fatigue, I've been there too. Then I found Early Birds Morning Cocktail.

Speaker 1 It's formulated with clinically studied ingredients like clean caffeine, electrolytes, antioxidants, and adaptogens. It's a simple morning cocktail that fits seamlessly into my wake-up routine.

Speaker 1 It starts working immediately to combat grogginess, fatigue, and mental blocks. One drink, and the brain fog clears, the fatigue lifts, I'm in control of my day again.
Take back your mornings.

Speaker 1 Visit clubearlybird.com and use code BETRAIL for 20% off. That's clubearlybird.com.

Speaker 3 It starts like any other night.

Speaker 4 The glass of red, the cozy blanket, then the drop.

Speaker 6 The stains so dark, so stubborn, it might as well have been a crime scene.

Speaker 8 But this isn't your average couch.

Speaker 9 This is Anna Bay.

Speaker 11 Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable, and ready for whatever your life, your kids, or your ex throws ahead.

Speaker 8 And here's the kicker.

Speaker 7 Starting at just $6.99, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain-resistant, and built to hide even the darkest offenses.

Speaker 5 Right now, get up to 60% off in Black Friday savings because no one should have to live with a stain that won't quit.

Speaker 12 Anna Bay, the only mystery you won't be losing sleep over.

Speaker 10 Shop washable sofas.com today.

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Speaker 1 Jordan's never met Justin, so she isn't going to give him any kind of diagnosis. But she did tell Stacey, building this kind of facade is what sexual predators do.

Speaker 17 I would imagine that Justin was incredibly secretive, and your depth of trust and your love wouldn't have alerted you to anything that might have been dangerous.

Speaker 17 And this is true for, you know, all sexual perpetrators.

Speaker 17 The whole way of grooming and creating that relationship is all based on bait and switch of care, warmth, love, and then threats and cruelty and manipulation.

Speaker 17 We're dealing with a person who does not have empathy, who does not have morality, and is able to completely shapeshift their behavior for their own selfish motivations and agenda.

Speaker 1 Listening to Jordan, my takeaway is that sexual predators like Justin are acting out a role. They are pretending to love you and care about you, but there is an agenda.

Speaker 1 And at this moment, I'm grieving for Stacy because no one should be treated like that. It undermines your belief in everything.

Speaker 1 Seeing this for what it is and digesting this reality, it takes time.

Speaker 1 Stacy could not be a loving and devoted partner one day and completely uncaring and detached the next.

Speaker 16 It's really hard to tell people that you miss that love because they're such a horrible person.

Speaker 23 But you can't just shut that off.

Speaker 16 Like it just doesn't go away.

Speaker 20 And that's what I think has been the hardest, with the exception of my children being hurt,

Speaker 20 is

Speaker 16 grieving that, but also being okay to grieve it.

Speaker 17 You did lose something really precious to you. You lost all of these good things and the promise of love.

Speaker 16 You know, when I talk about the good times, I feel good about it.

Speaker 20 It makes miss them.

Speaker 1 Stacy misses what she calls her boring life and yearns for a time that she felt love, purpose, and contentment from her happy and healthy family unit that she thought she had.

Speaker 1 But what she thought she had and what was really going on in the darkness were two different things.

Speaker 1 So what Stacey's left with is trying to reconcile the version of Justin she knew, which was the loving husband, doctor, and family man, with the person she recently discovered, a violent predator.

Speaker 1 Fully integrating those two people is work and part of Stacey's journey.

Speaker 17 Can you tell me who this person was to you? Actually, just look at your hand and put the good qualities of who he was in that hand.

Speaker 1 He was like my answer to everything.

Speaker 16 He was kind, he was smart, he was funny, he loved me, and I didn't ever feel like I had to beg for that.

Speaker 17 And then what about what would you put in the left hand?

Speaker 20 A monster.

Speaker 17 What do you feel in your body, Stacey, as you say monster?

Speaker 16 Like a tightness.

Speaker 16 You know, just like everything tightens up and it's almost like it's...

Speaker 16 It's like it's hard for me to believe that that's who I'm speaking of. It's hard for me to see that those are the same person.

Speaker 17 I hope you know how normal that is for so many people. I mean, for people who experience domestic violence, there's strong attachment, even though there's very strong violence.

Speaker 17 You're not alone in that complexity of holding both.

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 1 For Stacey, The path to confronting her own grief and loss could only begin when she knew Tyler was going to be okay.

Speaker 16 I want to see Tyler be everything that he was supposed to be.

Speaker 23 Tyler living a good life, him thriving, him not being a statistic, his children not being a statistic.

Speaker 1 Although Jordan has never met Tyler, she has listened to the podcast and heard his reasons for wanting to share his story.

Speaker 17 What I've really valued that I have heard from Tyler is that his why for being a part of this podcast is let other people

Speaker 17 and young men in particular, but to let other survivors know that they're not alone. That ability to feel that he can be a protector is reparative.

Speaker 17 The feeling that he can actually give to someone else what he didn't receive is such an empowering experience.

Speaker 17 When victims speak up,

Speaker 2 their

Speaker 17 desire for truth and repair so often cannot happen with the very person that they deserve a repair from.

Speaker 17 We need to hear survivors and we actually can offer empathy and we actually are a part of repair for that other person.

Speaker 1 Even though Tyler doesn't blame Stacey for what happened to him, Jordan says it's possible that anger could eventually bubble to the surface.

Speaker 17 It can take a long time in the processing for the adult child to finally feel safe enough to be angry at their parent.

Speaker 17 One thing I said to Stacey, at some point you need to be ready for that to happen.

Speaker 17 Often those that are implicated and are closest to them, like a parent, will not be able to tolerate the feelings of shame or vulnerability or fear.

Speaker 17 Paradoxically, that's the only way forward to be able to tolerate the shame, admit responsibility, acknowledge the lack of protection.

Speaker 1 But through this work, Stacey feels ready for those hard conversations

Speaker 1 whenever they may come.

Speaker 16 I said, there may be a day that you do blame me, you do feel angry. I want want you to come to me when you feel that, because we're going to need to sit with it.
We're going to need to talk about it.

Speaker 1 So Tyler and Stacy keep an open dialogue. Tyler is on a good path and healing in his own way.
But what does the next chapter look like for Stacy beyond just making sure that everyone else is okay?

Speaker 17 I really appreciate that you're centering Tyler as the most important person to receive justice, but you were also injured deeply, Stacey.

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 17 So I'm wondering,

Speaker 17 what does justice look like for you?

Speaker 16 All I ever wanted was him to tell me he was sorry,

Speaker 20 and it wouldn't have fixed anything.

Speaker 16 But I just wanted him to say one day to me, Stacey,

Speaker 16 you didn't deserve any of that.

Speaker 1 Justin actually did say those exact words to Stacey.

Speaker 19 You were an amazing spouse and didn't deserve any of this.

Speaker 1 But Justin's words lacked sincerity. They felt like they were more for the judge than for Stacey.

Speaker 1 They meant nothing.

Speaker 17 When someone causes hurt to you,

Speaker 17 what you need is an empathetic expression of remorse.

Speaker 17 When repair really restores safety, it's because the other person has access to empathy, but for someone who is actually devoid of empathy, which is part of their character disorder, that very thing can never happen.

Speaker 17 Consciousness begins when we realize we can't get from another person what we've been trying to get and freedom is when we realize we can go get it somewhere else.

Speaker 1 Jordan challenged Stacey to look inward and ask herself, what would it look like for her to create a good life and become the person she is supposed to be?

Speaker 16 I want to be able to trust people again.

Speaker 16 I want to be able to be in a relationship with someone and not think that there's stuff going on that I don't know about.

Speaker 16 I could take you all the way back to my first husband with my guilt and my shame and my hurt that I've never dealt with, that I just went on to another man. Oh, it's better.

Speaker 16 Oh, I got a new relationship.

Speaker 5 But it still followed me everywhere because I never dealt with it.

Speaker 16 And I just don't want that for the rest of my life.

Speaker 17 This experience with Justin is not the first time you've

Speaker 17 had an experience of two

Speaker 17 parallel realities happening simultaneously. Does that feel true for you?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 16 My first husband left me after eight years for a coworker. You know, that was completely devastating.
Just felt like my whole world bottomed out.

Speaker 16 It was so out of control and I couldn't control anything and it was awful.

Speaker 16 I'm a bigger woman, so a huge thing for me is weight and self-esteem. But, you know, when you throw something like that on top of it, it's even more devastating.

Speaker 1 The feeling of unworthiness frequently comes up for Stacy. During their sessions, Jordan asked Stacy about her family, her childhood, and her place within her family.

Speaker 1 Her answers revealed the beginning of wounds that have shaped who Stacy has become as an adult.

Speaker 17 The repetition of unworthiness was not just in her first marriage, it was also in the seeds of her early attachment experience with a mother who was not able to respond to her and really be there in a very present and securely attached way.

Speaker 16 My mom was more

Speaker 16 cold and cut off. I just don't think she really knew how to be a mom good.
Like she never got down and played with us.

Speaker 16 I would see other people with their moms, you know, girls going shopping and having hair day and nail days and things like that. And my mom just didn't do those kinds of things.

Speaker 16 My dad was more like the mom. He grocery shopped, he cooked, he did those kinds of things.
He was very like sensitive to us.

Speaker 1 As Stacey and her sister Heather grew up, their roles became defined. Heather needed extra attention.
She was unapologetic, headstrong, rebellious. Stacy was the opposite.

Speaker 16 I was the good child. I didn't cause any problems.
I didn't do anything bad.

Speaker 20 I didn't get arrested.

Speaker 16 I didn't, you know, it was always just, oh, we don't have to worry about Stacy. Stacy's good.
You know, she doesn't cause any problems.

Speaker 1 Stacy was the easy one. She didn't appear to need much, so she didn't receive a whole lot.

Speaker 17 That was her role.

Speaker 1 And when she did need extra love and support from her mother, it wasn't there.

Speaker 16 When my first divorce happened, I was distraught.

Speaker 16 About a week after I moved back home, after my life fell apart, she said, all right, it's time for you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. I don't want to hear about this anymore.

Speaker 16 We're not going to cry about it anymore. And I remember saying to her, like, oh, thank you.
It's been a whole week.

Speaker 16 She just was very cut off like that i still remember how hurtful that was it felt like my feelings didn't matter or that i was just being too dramatic about this thing called divorce like just move on stacy just move on stacy didn't face this uncomfortable reality until it came time to grieve her mother at her funeral stacy was at a loss My dad wanted my sister and I to write a eulogy and we just couldn't think of things.

Speaker 16 It was a really horrible feeling because we knew we were loved, but my mom didn't do a lot to show us that kind of stuff.

Speaker 17 What I'm really just appreciating is this way that you've had to learn to live from the beginning of being a kid, where you had to

Speaker 17 put away or not pay attention to things that were hard and go on functioning.

Speaker 17 And that that actually was for you as a kid such an incredibly important way you survived.

Speaker 17 What I'm wanting to convey is just a real deeper understanding of this pattern of being in relationship and how understandable

Speaker 17 it was for you to be paying attention to

Speaker 17 the good

Speaker 17 and actually how accustomed you have gotten to not paying attention to what's hard.

Speaker 16 I think it's really helpful to start seeing those connections.

Speaker 16 It's painful, but it also makes sense. And that's good when not much has made sense in this.

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Speaker 3 It starts like any other night.

Speaker 4 The glass of red, the cozy blanket, then the drop.

Speaker 6 The stains so dark, so stubborn, it might as well have been a crime scene.

Speaker 8 But this isn't your average couch.

Speaker 9 This is Anna Bay.

Speaker 11 Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable, and ready for whatever your life, your kids, or your ex throws ahead of.

Speaker 12 And here's the kicker.

Speaker 7 Starting at just $6.99, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain-resistant, and built to hide even the darkest offenses.

Speaker 5 Right now, get up to 60% off in Black Friday savings savings because no one should have to live with a stain that won't quit.

Speaker 12 Anna Bay, the only mystery you won't be losing sleep over.

Speaker 10 Shop washablesofas.com today.

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Speaker 1 One really useful part of therapy is to identify patterns and move past repeated behaviors. Jordan Dan explains how this applies in Stacey's life.

Speaker 17 Her mother had a lack of empathy, her first husband had a lack of empathy, and Justin had a lack of empathy.

Speaker 17 And awareness of that pattern, once the unconscious becomes conscious, then we are free to actually move towards people who have empathy, who are there, and who are able to give us the support and connection and relationship that we didn't get before.

Speaker 17 And now that I'm aware, I can make new choices and I can create a new reality, one in which I have much more power and freedom.

Speaker 16 I always say that there's no light at the end of the tunnel. It's just a new tunnel.

Speaker 16 And it may not be as difficult as the last one.

Speaker 16 It's just always figuring out how to navigate something new.

Speaker 16 And so I don't know how I'm going to be 100% to be able to do that if I don't deal with some of the stuff that I've dealt with.

Speaker 16 I'm going into a phase where I feel like it's okay for me to start to feel things for myself and to grieve what I lost.

Speaker 1 Stacey is working to hold the pain of her disappointment with the pain of Justin's destruction, right along with the positive memories their family shared.

Speaker 1 But she's not only doing the work for herself, she's doing it for Tyler, Michaela, and the Littles.

Speaker 17 Her ability to actually hold that complexity is really crucial so that she actually passes on to her children faith and belief in the goodness of other people

Speaker 17 and is able to maintain a feeling of relationships are hard and they're also good.

Speaker 17 And if she actually just was in this absolute about who Justin is and what relationships are, that's the inheritance she'd be passing on to her children.

Speaker 17 And that would be a continuation of the trauma she's experienced.

Speaker 1 Jordan says life is not black and white. It's healthy for Stacy to remember good times, not pretend they never happened.

Speaker 16 This has been huge for me to see things differently and to try to help me start realizing that it's okay.

Speaker 16 I don't choose to remember those moments.

Speaker 16 I don't choose to remember a smell if I smell it.

Speaker 16 For me to understand that is going to help me to

Speaker 16 get to a place where I cannot be so shameful of the thoughts and be able to move forward and be like, you know what? I can feel joy in these moments.

Speaker 16 It's okay for me to remember joy without feeling shameful.

Speaker 1 On the next episode of Betrayal, Tyler meets Anthony Edwards. The beloved star of ER and Top Gun shares his own story as we explore the stigma and shame that prevents men from disclosing sexual abuse.

Speaker 26 I became a good actor because I could go into a room and I could assess everything. You get really good at playing a room to know how to survive because surviving is the most important thing.

Speaker 26 Because when your spirit's broken like that, you feel like you'll die if you don't.

Speaker 1 If you're a man who has experienced sexual abuse or assault, or you know someone who is seeking support, go to onein6.org. That's the number one I-N number6.org.

Speaker 1 Find a path to a happier, healthier future. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.
That's betrayalpod at gmail.com.

Speaker 1 Also, please be sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all betrayal content, news, and updates. We're grateful for your support.

Speaker 1 One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.
Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.

Speaker 1 Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.

Speaker 1 Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written by Carrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden.
Also produced by Ben Fetterman, associate producer Kristen Melcurie.

Speaker 1 Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Krinechek.

Speaker 1 Special thanks to Jordan Dan, Stacey Rutherford, Tyler, and the rest of Stacey and Tyler's friends and family. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Zalvecchio.
Editing support from Nico Aruka.

Speaker 1 Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MIBE Music.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 When your alarm goes off in the morning, do you feel energized? Or are you tempted by the snooze button again and again?

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Speaker 17 What do you think makes the perfect snack?

Speaker 19 Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

Speaker 1 Could you be more specific?

Speaker 19 When it's cravenient.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 19 Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right now in the street at AM PM, or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at AM PM.

Speaker 13 I'm seeing a pattern here.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah, we're talking about what I crave.

Speaker 1 Which is anything from AM PM?

Speaker 19 What more could you want?

Speaker 25 Stop by AMPM, where the snacks and drinks are perfectly cravable and convenient. That's cravenience.
A.M. P.M., too much good stuff.

Speaker 24 A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers. But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught.
The answers were there, hidden in plain sight.

Speaker 24 So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster: Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer. The investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam.

Speaker 24 Available now. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart Podcast.