Radio Better Offline: David "Shingy" Shing

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Call Zone Media.

Hi, Mimo Moed Zitron.

This is Better Offline.

We're in iHeart Radio Studio in beautiful New York City.

Today I am joined by a man who in 2014 rose to fame after becoming AOL's digital profit.

He joins me in the studio today, David Shing, best known as Shingy.

David.

Hey Ed, how are you, mate?

Shingy.

I am fantastic.

I love an intro.

Oh, yeah.

This is the most normal show in tech.

What are you up to these days, Shingy?

Great question.

There's three things I'm primarily up to.

I'm out speaking and educating.

That's great.

That's what I'm known for.

I also have a Creative House that started around pandemic times.

What's a Creative House do?

It does everything from iconography all the way through to strategy.

So all the way through.

That's iconography.

You happen to be wearing a brand on your t-shirt right now?

Somebody designed that, dude.

Okay, so a design thing.

Cool.

And then the other flip side is advisory practice.

That's cool.

And it's institutional advisory as well as small startups, which has really been research for me, which has been amazing.

Yeah, as a fellow consultant with a podcast, it's always good to meet another one.

So you...

It's been a while since you rose to fame.

What kind of happened?

Because you, I remember I was in the Bay Area at the time when I saw you arise on MSNBC and then just went and did other things.

I had to go and make some mistakes in my life, I guess.

What was it you did at AOL?

So I ran 13 countries for them.

I ran the media and marketing for them throughout Europe.

But what did that actually entail?

I ran 13 countries with multi-media.

Yes, but what did you do each day?

I launched a series of websites and I launched a series of ad platforms

and I helped change the iconography for AOL and when you build a new brand and you don't have any budget to support it right you have to think about a way to be in the marketplace so I created a persona wait did you not have like much budget oh yeah we did but not in Europe no not in Europe no that's because what happens with a big company you could probably appreciate this if one division performs poorly everyone suffers.

Right.

So if you're not close to the sun, you're not going to get all the budget.

It's just how it works.

It's funny because your whole thing, and I don't say this as an insult, got kind of flattened to that one picture of you with the kind of MSNBC?

Yes, the MSNC.

Yeah, because, and then there was that Guardian interview.

It's like, you drew a zebra.

It said you showed someone AOL a picture of a zebra.

Zebra pants?

Zebra pants, possibly.

It's just.

I was wearing them, but you were wearing them.

Nice.

Yeah,

it's funny because you've become

somewhat of like a like a I want to say like a character with a meme.

A meme, I think think memes fair, but it's more.

I think the character's probably a little underrated.

Yeah,

it's just because you have a real job, it seems, and you have this whole time, despite the fact that I've been told, like, oh, this guy just like shows up and says he's the digital prophet.

And I was genuinely curious about it.

Like,

I'm excited.

So I never really told anybody the mystery.

I want to hear the mystery.

And the magic of it still replicates today.

So I would go in and get interviews, get audiences with brands we could never be in front of.

Like what?

Like what brand?

Like, yeah, what kind of brands?

Nike.

Nike.

Why couldn't AOL get in front of them?

Well, but they could, but they're going to just sell ads.

I'm trying to sell innovation on top of the ads.

Right.

So much bigger than we would ever be able to do.

And what would that innovation manifest as?

What were you selling to Nike, for example?

I know this is just an example.

We invented an ad called Devil,

which was like this incredible new magazine-esque style ad takeover that the AAB ended up picking up and running with.

So we were just building things things that were radically different than spots and dots that sales teams are selling.

Right.

So how do you feel about AI?

How are you feeling about all this?

Because look, you were part of a hype cycle.

So end of 2014

was like a very hype-driven time.

It's like the sexiest time in Indiegogo and Kickstarter land, I would say, back then.

What do you think of AI?

How do you feel about it?

Do you think it's a bubble?

No, it's not.

No.

Well, it's also been around for 40, 50 years.

Right.

So, generative AI specifically.

What do I think about that?

Yeah, sure.

I think it's magical.

Really?

Yeah, it hallucinates occasionally, but I think it's great.

Because if I can extend a background without having to go reshoot it, that's pretty good.

And I'm able to change it out.

Can you do that, though?

Yeah, have you not been, have you not checked out Firefly?

I have.

I have.

I read your substack.

I do read your blog.

It's just right now,

as a hype man, and I don't mean that derisively.

I mean that, like,

your job is ostensibly hype.

right now it feels like there is this marketing dissonance between firefly which i i'm aware and i know there are lots of people who listen to the show who are going to be very angry at me that we're even talking about adobe ai calm down everyone it's shingy allow him in but it's it feels like you've got this massive business failure happening in the background billions of dollars burned from open ai but you've got some utility how do you balance that like how do you in what characterization of it you said generative AI and then AI.

Well, I'm talking about the fact that you're hyping up something that is unsustainable right now.

Which bit?

I mean, the generative AI features of Firefly, for example, the same.

Why is it not sustainable?

Well, because OpenAI burns $5 billion a year, they still haven't worked out any profitability for any of these models, even a Deep Sea one.

Yes, but Firefly is run on generative models.

Yeah.

Right.

And they help create ad performances

at scale.

Right.

So at some point in time these things level out.

When?

Because that's the thing, like the amount when there's demand for better ads.

Right.

I just feel like we're a little lost within the generative AI conversation as an industry.

Right.

And I'm curious.

Do you play with Runway?

I've played with Sora a bit.

Yeah.

I just think I found Runway to be really fucking mediocre.

Well, there's a dystopian to it, which is definitely that shine will come off and that production's going to be pretty amazing.

Single tool that does one thing, no good.

But a tool that allows you to master audio without an engineer, pretty amazing.

Yeah, but does that exist yet?

Yeah, it does with voice AI.

Riverside is not good.

Riverside is a podcasting platform.

And they have AI mastering on it.

God bless them.

But they're not just doing mastering.

So you can upload something to something like Voice AI and it's absolutely designed for mastering.

Right, but

there is this massive financial problem at the side of this, that this stuff is burning so much money.

And I guess you could have on-device models, but that's nowhere near what we

I just, I don't know how you couch these two things.

Supply and demand.

I mean, there's a massive supply for new ways of creating different tools.

And the supply cycle is incredibly wide.

It feels like web, you know, back in the web 1.0 cycles.

Right.

But now it has different tools that are much faster to build.

But the demand isn't there.

I think so.

I mean, I did a piece a few months ago, no, weeks ago, Jesus Christ, time dilation, where it was like Copiler has like 11 million monthly active users,

which is pretty pissed poor, and that's Microsoft's.

I am hearing that there are various companies like 11 Labs, which are kind of leveling out as far as user base goes.

What happens if this doesn't get much bigger?

It just continues to do what everything else does.

It tails off and becomes a niche.

Which is okay.

You think so?

Yeah, it's totally okay.

So you seem quite high on it.

So what are you using then?

Talk to me about the AI tools you use.

The obvious.

I mean, I think chat's interesting i think that claude is interesting to help you do draft one so those sort of tools are fine i think sora is it seems interesting but dystopian runaway works okay if you can actually model it correctly

when you say dystopian what do you mean over glossy really hard to understand depth of field like it's if you're going to be a deep practitioner you know the sort of thing you want right to try and visualize that can be very difficult and that i think that's kind of the the challenge today is these tools do remarkable amount of work right it's a matter of can you get it to do the work that you want it to do without taking more time than actually doing it physically right with software so it's just software and it's and it's curious but it's not

it Here's what I am seeing.

I'm seeing a consolidation of tools saying, here's one tool that you log into, and it does all these things for you, but it does all of them only okay.

So you have to splinter off and find something that does just what you want it to do.

So focused.

And, you know, better at book writing than maybe stories, or better at drawing than maybe painting a landscape.

I mean, these articulations that become really just splinters of a certain technique today are all corralled into one thing.

And I don't think anything does a great job.

Words are great.

I think the agent.

I don't know if I agree on the words, though.

I don't.

Well, as a

still, your point's made.

But it's way better than me as a first edit copywriter.

Yeah, but that's a skill issue, Shingy.

Like, you can get better by writing more.

You could.

Right, it's good.

Is your sub stack Chat GPT written or Claude written?

No.

But it's, you know,

I think what's interesting about the tools, I don't want to have to necessarily become very technical when I'm wanting to shoot an idea of a landscape or something.

By the way, I'm only using my own images and only

purposely not using anything generative.

It's all like photos from my own photo library.

So So no stock, no generative, because until it's actually really good, as much as I'm an advocate for it, I'm a better believer in craft than I am.

So can these tools, like mastering, for example, of sound, love that.

Love that for a tool because I have no clue how to bring EQs up.

I have no clue how to bring in any depth within a voice.

I know clue on that.

So God bless.

And do you use it for that?

Like you actually use it?

What do you use for mastering it?

I use voice.

I think it's voice.ai.

I've used a couple of them.

And by the way, when you skim it, you know, when I'm looking for something, it's typically at urgency.

Like the levels are low, and I can't seem to bring them up and they're over peaky.

And then I use a service, it comes back, it's too peaky, or it's got too much bass.

I don't know, right?

So it's really about can I use things, tools that help get to a better artifact than the actual tools that I can use?

Because democratization of tools means that everything is kind of flatlined.

So I'm looking for things to become really interesting.

I don't necessarily think that the quality of the end result is higher resolution enough, but it sure beats squeaky markers and bleed poof pads that we grew up with.

So the efficiency of getting ideas out,

love that.

Right, but is it crafty if you're using generative AI?

Yeah, I think it is.

I think an artist can use any tool.

This just happens to be one of them today.

Right.

Now, you talked about value, though.

You talked about this thing seemed to be bleeding money, et cetera, et cetera.

All of them.

Yeah, God bless.

What do you mean, God bless?

I mean, that's going to be their problem.

At some point in time, they're going to have to factor that out and figure out a model that everyone's trying to, you know,

generate these tools that can be the panacea and then they're going to make money on it at some point.

Yeah, maybe.

We'll see.

It's just.

Not all the tools are going to make money.

You know that.

Sure, but none of the tools currently make money.

That's kind of the thing.

It feels like an atypical hype cycle in that having lived through enough of these now myself, I'm a little bit younger than you, I've never seen one that was just burning cash like this,

but I've never seen one with more, nor have I ever seen one with more disconnection between the utility and the marketing hype.

It feels like they are promising more than ever.

And we're in this weird, dissonant area where it's like no one really knows what's going to happen.

Well, you know, I live in the space of ads still.

So from an ad perspective, there's no shortage of demand.

But for what, though?

Ads.

Yeah, sure, but demand for for ads, but what about generative AI?

Like, where does generative AI fit into this?

Are you saying creative?

Yeah, helping to create the ads.

I think the ads that are created with generative are pretty rubbish.

Yeah.

But the truth is, there's a demand for lots of ads because of just sheer audience growth.

But the reality is that efficiency of can you make ads cheaper,

that's a conundrum.

But is generative AI doing that?

I don't think so.

I think they're doing some of it, perhaps.

Maybe they're doing an interesting background that would have

taken you off, but it can't, it's not the whole thing.

And by the way, if you and I were to look at a bunch of ads right now and try and pick with their AI or not AI, you would, I think nine out of ten would get, we would know that it's written by AI.

There's like an uncanny valley feel to them.

It's got a dystopian, I guess.

It kind of feels a little bit like, and we've gone way beyond hallucination.

We've gone into this kind of, you just know.

You can just see it and feel it.

It's cold.

It's weird.

And the funny thing is, is I think what you're talking about is not hallucination.

It is actually an accurate depiction of something, but it's too accurate.

It has this kind of sheen to its narrative.

It does have to be.

It feels like the movie AI.

Yeah.

Ironically.

It does.

I said that.

It came off my head.

I'm like, shit, I'm stupid.

Anyway.

And the number of frames a second seem off.

There's something very.

There's too much lighting space.

I completely agree with you, but it's also where I see those sort of things used are in more kind of tonnage ads, like things that are just trying to get a lot of these creatives saturating the marketplace, which ultimately, if we're not careful, we'll make ads more expensive, meaning to get to Ed the the human at the end of it.

If you've now just become completely oblivious or ignoring ads that feel like they're AI'd, because unless that gets figured out, you'll become blind to these AI ads.

So to get to you is even going to be harder.

So this is the weird thing right now.

Ads and AI don't seem to have touched that much.

And I say this because there's a company.

So you heard of Perplexity?

Sure.

So Perplexity is allegedly, Hayden Field at CNBC reported this last year.

They're apparently looking for like $55 CPM.

Just on what platform?

On their search net, their search platform.

But you've not really seen ads and AI touch.

Like even Google's AI search, they just did ads.

No, I think perplexity, if you were to give it a prompt and it recommended something that you were looking for.

Let's assume you're looking for a piece of gear and they recommend a piece of gear versus these other 10 pieces of gear.

That review is probably in their eyes an ad.

Right.

You know what I mean?

It may not be a display ad, as we've seen.

Yeah, but

they're not doing ads yet.

It's just.

No, but I'm saying they could be in the description.

Sure.

Are they formally not doing ads or they haven't

started yet?

Oh, they want to.

And when they do those ads, they will be subtle like that.

They will be within descriptions.

They will be contextually relevant to that person in terms of the totality of a story, not just a display.

I'm just wondering.

I think it will be.

No, no, no, no.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

I'm just wondering how they pull it off because the whole thing with hallucinations, you can't predict where an ad is going to appear or what it's going to appear next to.

And I think the if it's with with if it's with words, the context is wider.

You think so?

If it's with voice,

they're not going to do voice.

Aravind's not.

You know, it's like it's just a wider context, though.

So let's just dream for a second.

If you're able to do that, at least you've got a wider concept of what the story is versus a display ad around.

Sure, but I mean just like practically speaking, if you vomit out a bunch of text, which may rip off a journalist outlet or two,

how do you like I

perhaps I need to actually ask you the question.

Why do you think that ads and AI really haven't touched it?

Because ChatGPT doesn't monetize with that.

Perplexity is thinking about it or haven't.

Google AI has only just started considering it.

Do you think it's a generative side?

Like, you've been in the ad slot for decades.

I guess it

depends on which place you want to sit in that question.

Are you talking about me as somebody going to that tool to use it?

No, I'm wondering why the companies themselves have been hesitant.

No, no, no, hang on.

Let's get back to the context real quick just so I can understand the framing.

Is it me going to Perplexity's website to be able to use its tool and it's folding in ads in the results of me using it?

I mean on a grander perspective.

Like taking it away from just like the user right now.

You've been in ads for a long time.

Forever.

So I think.

Why do you think it feels like ads to ad tech has traditionally been very quick to adopt stuff?

Like they will rush, they rush to fucking meerkat, they rush to everything fast.

Yeah, remember that?

But it's AI, they've generative AI, generative search, chat gpt because i just don't think it's i would i would say that it's just a little naive and i have seen how do you mean i have seen ads that are directed by

so scripted by ai

shot by humans sure

and they look there's just something missing and because that litness test of is it warm enough does it feel like something is a motive it misses sure it is going to get a lot better man this is not even a debate but i mean it absolutely is a debate i mean i will absolutely debate the shit out of this the training data required to make sora better does not exist even if you took every video ever taken they are adobe is paying people to take video but my question was actually really way more specific which is

you have been in ad tech for a long time yeah everything else has been in like um generative ai platforms are not integrating ads as a monetization mechanism why do you think that is Because the presentation layer of that, the actual ability to generate something that feels like it's not cold, specifically, and I've said it a few times now, is not up to snuff.

Everything else in the background that is actually using

lots of big data to be able to represent the right type of context to you, today we will call that AI, is in play.

So I think there's a marriage between what's going on in the back, humming along, and the presentation layer of that, to be honest, is terrible.

I agree.

In comparison.

I agree, but maybe I need to be more specific.

It feels like ad tech is, they will do the generative side.

There's tons of ad tech platforms that will generate like

the specs.

Or you've seen the ads, too.

You've seen the shiny, muscly person.

Oh, God, yeah, the horrifying, like, beautiful people

with like a 19-pack.

I mean, more on a practical level of you were AOL.

You were inspiring them to do more things.

It feels like when it comes to the platforms themselves, putting aside the actual ads themselves, I mean, it doesn't feel like anyone, not Perplexity, Perplexity being so slow, Google especially, so weird.

It feels like they're hesitant to attach ads to these platforms at all.

Ads to the platforms, yeah, as in, like, they haven't integrated, because ad tech loves integrating shit, they love putting stuff on stuff, but it feels like they've stepped away from, like, they had, look, yeah, and maybe, maybe because of, that's a really interesting question.

Maybe that's because it's just,

you know, it's an interface for creation and they don't want to actually bastard data with ads today.

It might be that, it

It might be that pure.

I wonder if it's difficult to integrate.

Or where would you?

Because

the interface today feels a bit like Wikipedia meets answers.com.

It feels a bit kind of retro, you know?

And because it's a new interface, the only way to put the context around it is in the context of what you're generating, and it's software.

And that's random every time.

And it's also software equals ads.

Before, so if we roll this back to the early 90s, mid-90s, there were holes cut across websites for display ads, and and those formats were accredited.

Now it's so rapid.

There is a little bit of through line that feels like it's consistent, but it's not a consistent interface that feels like you wrap ads around it, particularly on mobile, but desktop probably more so.

And I wanted to, and like, this wasn't meant to be an oppositional question.

It's just fascinating to me.

Oh, I don't think it is.

I think it's a really good question because I would say that these, but the reason why I keep on asking for a pointed question to the question is that you've got creation tools and you've got consumption tools.

And at times, they're the same thing.

So if you look at Chad or if you look at, you know, if you look at Claude, they're the same thing.

So you're in there creating as a creator as well as somebody who's consuming.

That's pretty new from a dynamic of a user interface because you don't go in and you don't, well, you could go in and create a video on the fly and upload it to Instagram, but you wouldn't expect to see an ad on your creation of that video on Instagram.

You know what I'm saying?

So given that's the case,

there's a new paradigm is all I'm saying.

And I haven't really thought about that paradigm converging.

And that's the thing.

Like your whole thing is what's new and sexy and ads and all

shiny.

And it's just so strange.

It's truly unique because when we had the bullshit AR thing, I'm sure you remember that.

They had ads on that shit immediately.

You could not, you couldn't, you were filthy with filters.

You could have like a sprite filter on your face if you wanted it.

They had the ads immediately.

Yeah.

And it just,

because in that context, context, it felt like you really could, couldn't you?

You just layer it, yeah.

And it's just like it, and you, I agree with you that they are creative interfaces when you look at them.

This is not a judgment on how much I like them, it's just what they work.

Work has, yeah, it just feels so weird that ad tech, or like none of these platforms want to.

Sam Altman said he doesn't like it, whatever, but it's just so bizarre.

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What about the fact that the

gold rush of AI happening now is also part of the fallout of the euphoria of the Web3 NFT blockchain world.

How do you mean?

And what I mean by that is that that was all the attention.

If we met, I don't know, on this particular show three, four years ago, that's probably all you'd talk about.

Oh, it's easy.

I mean, this show didn't exist three years ago, but I was on that show.

If we were, but you know what I'm saying?

So, but that has kind of

as quite hypey as it is today.

So, what I'm saying, if people are saying Web3, the future of that's more puristic, we haven't seen a world like this, this is going to be incredible, let's buy land in it, blah, blah, blah.

Perhaps the positioning of what does this new web, better web look like, jamming ads in it is just like having the uninvited guests to the public.

I don't know if I feel like it's a utopian thing.

It's just

the idea of any of these companies being like, oh, well, we don't want to fuck up the internet.

I mean, look at Google search.

I mean, there is no greater vector that has fucked up the internet, probably Raghavan piece of shit.

It's...

It's just so strange.

And I've really only came to this conversation thinking about this because every single hype cycle other than and crypto, I can understand why the ads weren't quite as prevalent.

I can understand because it's difficult to do blockchain ads.

Christ, what a hype cycle idea.

But blockchain ads because the sure the immutable ledger, but how would you actually reliably you could probably say a click happen?

No, actually, it would be difficult.

Yeah, attribution across that would be challenging.

But I also think, but to on your point,

I don't know why, to be honest, but I do think maybe there is

it's always an outcome.

Monetizing a platform of popularity is always going to be an outcome.

It doesn't have to be.

And by the way, that's with every platform.

You know, it starts with the purests of all the social platforms.

None of them had ads initially.

Yeah.

And then if you look at something, if you go into the vault and look at things like MySpace, they never had ads for the longest time because the artist was the ad.

I mean, you know?

Sure.

Does it make sense?

Yeah, but I'm just thinking, I'm having

one idea, which is very difficult for my brain.

It almost feels like these hype cycles have failed because they haven't found an ad thing.

All of the previous ones, the internet is built on advertising, as you well know, but none of them,

not metaverse, not crypto, not generative AI, have found a stable ad income.

And I have to wonder if it might be that the subscription model is not scalable.

At least it doesn't scale to the dollars that advertising can provide, which most of tech is dependent on.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, the subscription dollars versus the ad dollars is still that.

That's pathetic, yeah.

Forget about it.

But there's something really interesting about that popularity, though.

We're still in this world of popularity, right?

Until you get scale, you don't have an audience that actually you can monetize.

But it still comes down to, I think, these two interfaces are in conflict because you've got consumption and creation happening on the same platform, which I think is incredibly unique.

It is unique.

However, I feel about generative AI, there hasn't been something like this shit before, which is, I find it deeply annoying and all of it frustrating, and the environmental and the theft and all of that.

And the fact it's actually fair, the people that's put out of jobs feel like people who are already vulnerable as well, like

art directors and

like freelance audio people and freelance creatives are the ones getting fucked by this.

And all of this is happening for them all to lose money.

That to me is the dystopian part.

That they haven't, they've no one really appears to be benefiting from this other than maybe Sam Altman and Dari Amade.

There is something Ed, to the culture of creativity, which is even in ads today still,

is that creative is considered the non-working part of the media.

What do you mean?

Mean that it doesn't count as part of the media, creative.

So it's always this cost item over there.

So, what the journalists and the artists and stuff like that.

Or yeah, the people who create the commercials, for example, it typically doesn't get rolled up as part of the media spend or success.

So it's always debatable.

Media isn't because it's absolute, because it's, you got a rate card.

Even if the audiences are, you know, I get what you're saying.

Who are the people that have when you say it's not rated or it's like it's not?

It's not considered part of the media system.

Who are the people saying this?

Is it the ad the ads people?

They just don't consider the creatives.

Oh, the brands.

So if a brand is sitting here saying, look, we're going to create an ad, but the cost of that ad doesn't get attributed to where the media is because media is always whole.

So that's always a

not sure I understand.

So I guess my point in saying this is that we're always going to try and skinny down the cost of creation.

Right.

Okay.

That's really the nut of it.

Because everything else, that's rate card, negotiable, whatever.

But the actual physical cost of the thing that gets placed, that always seems to be

a stepchild.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, that's a shame.

And so when you talk about vulnerability, I completely agree with that.

The flip side of that is all of these efficiency tools that we see, and AI is considered one of those today.

Because generative is just one part of it, which is still trying to find, I believe, its way.

I find some things that are really really kind of amazing,

but not all the time.

Like, I wouldn't be using it all the time.

You can't.

It is not reliable enough.

No, I wasn't even trying to gotcha that, but you just can't right now.

And it's also, you know, it's not higher resolution enough.

There's many reasons why, but it does get you to mediocre faster.

And so at least

that allows you to

not disagree, but you can't.

So at least make those decisions and say, obviously that's a bad idea.

We're not going to go forward with it, as opposed to somebody polishing 10 great ideas or 10 mediocre ideas and finding out there's one should have been executed faster, better, sooner.

Maybe that's a case for it.

I think you've really touched upon something though, which is

I think a lot of my listeners and my readers struggle with why so many corporations want generative AI to grow.

And part of it is the labor automation.

Why they want generative AI?

Why they want AI to be a thing.

And there's many stupid reasons, but I never thought about the fact that just in the ads world, which controls large swarths of our economy and funds a lot of the tech industry, just all creativity was considered minor.

I mean, it's very obvious now I say it, but like it's fascinating to know that from that perspective.

Is that like an executive position?

Well, yet

here's the challenge.

You have mediocre creatives seen by many,

and you see really great creatives seen by few.

So that's why it feels like the creatives still sort of sit

at the back.

They're trying to do these things, but they, but whenever a discussion says at scale, that's when it falls apart.

So that's why

it's kind of...

Why is mediocre seen by the many, though?

Like, why does the miserable?

Simply because of format, I think, is really, you know, the ability to try and create something that has a contagiousness to it.

Today seems to have a celebrity moment.

Those days, I think, are kind of at least falling away.

And

there are better places for people to hold their attention.

So metrics have to change, effectively.

Go away from popularity and talk about other things like how do you hold somebody's attention for the longest time versus just trying to saturate, you know?

Right.

I mean, I think it's, I think the landscape's changing,

but I don't think it's, I don't think creation of content or creativity is evolving at the same pace.

But would evolving even matter if there was this attitude towards creatives?

Yeah, well, e.g., format, of course.

What do you mean?

Shape of the ad,

style of the ad.

You know, you talked about AR as a good example.

That was small audiences, wow, experience, to be honest.

But where was the conversion there?

Because that's the thing.

It doesn't feel like there has been a new successful ad format in a long time.

Yeah, yeah.

Have you seen other

ads?

No, I really haven't.

It's so strange.

And I've, you know, I've tried on, as I'm sure you have with Vision Pro.

You've tried on the goggles.

Oh, Christ, yes.

You know, I can't really see anybody, firstly, it just doesn't scale.

It comes back to that, right?

There is no scale.

Yeah.

But it's immersive.

But the reality, are you building things for a one-to-many or are you building it for one-to-one?

And just even then,

I have to wonder if there's not a problem which we, the geniuses, have discovered, which is there is no, like, we're in the iHeartRadio Studios.

One of the most successful advertising formats, as my listeners love to tell me, is the ads, the basic radio play ads.

Yeah, the audio ads, and display ads, and so CPA, CPM.

Otherwise, it doesn't feel like advertising has evolved.

It's tried to evolve.

Yeah.

I mean, we try to do it with Devil.

We try to do it with these incredible formats that have their own.

Do these work?

They certainly did.

And the measurement of work is, you know,

dwell time, click-through, all of those things that you can measure.

Right.

They were going through the roof.

And they work until they become standards.

And then they don't work because they're everywhere.

So there's this exclusivity to these things that make you feel like you're...

It's scale.

And then scale comes and ruins it.

No, because when everyone does the same thing and it all

gets back to fucking display well you end up with homogenization right so that's why

that's why it's homogenized everything feels normalized it feels right consistently the same thing regardless of what you put in it there was a there was something and i you know this conversation makes me think of something that was retro years ago when these ad formats came out there was this ad and i don't know what brand it is so that

at the jump that tells me that the thing didn't work but what was working was this incredible experience So

a band-built shape of a

ad, display ad, two shapes.

One was square, one was rectangular.

Right.

And in this square, they had a drummer and maybe a guitarist.

And in that square, they had a bassist and maybe the vocalist.

And they were playing live in these displays.

In the display ads.

And those live displays, because they were proportional to work, they were being broadcast to these websites.

That's so strange.

It was so fabulous.

Did it work?

It felt, I don't know, but it made a hell of an impression on me 20 years upstream.

So that's the thing.

You know, it just felt very inventive.

That is inventive.

I'm also going to have to look this up because that's how the hell band in a box or something.

I don't know.

I'm going to look this up.

It's very cool.

But it's, you get, it

feels almost as if the more I think about the ads and display ads and all this, how like this might actually be what's really undermined generative AI, which is they are trying to scale something that requires advertising dollar level funding with subscriptions, which may not work.

Yeah, I think you've hit on something.

But I do think that when there's a format that becomes consistent,

which doesn't exist today,

when you've got that, there's always these outliers that are trying to create something around that format.

Right.

So back then in the day, there was breakouts, and you have an ad, you click on it, it

folds open.

Right.

You know, all of those sort of things that happened.

All of that stuff was really just to say, here's the format that we've all decided is important.

We're going to put this value on top of it that makes it feel like it's really different.

And it reminds me of that band in the box thing.

Because there's no consistent interface, you can't have a consistent ad.

So everything around it, all these ads that we're going to see, they're going to be cloaked in this thing called context and value, I think, and it'll be

obfurgated.

Because it'll come back as a long paragraph talking about why you should buy these Sony headphones versus something else.

Yeah, I can see them trying that.

For sure.

I mean, particularly in descriptive results.

The problem is,

if that result is generative, that's going to shave off that little bit of CPM revenue.

That's going to scrape it off.

It's like, it's almost as if it's antithetical to ads.

Actually, I'll tell you where it won't shave it off.

It won't shave it off because it'll probably move from a CPA to sorry, CPM to a CBA.

So how expensive would that be?

Who knows?

But it depends on the cost of, I mean, it depends on what the attribution cost is going to be.

But let me, just stay with me for a second.

If it moves from cost per million or thousands to cost per acquisition, then there is a direct cost because that ad is generated one-to-one.

Right.

So it isn't a a many-to-many model.

It's a one-to-many.

And sorry, it's actually a one-to-one generative.

So I'm able to produce an ad that feels highly tailored to Ed and his needs.

But that should be highly valuable.

It should be, but the hallucination when you scale it to a million people is the thing.

But you don't have to, sorry, you don't have to scale it, is what I'm saying.

Yes, you do.

No, you don't.

You don't.

Because if people aren't, if you're searching generally for an ad

some headphones.

We're searching for some headphones and you're presented with an ad for headphones.

If it's generating for each person, say a million people see this ad and it is one-to-one, it is still generative with fresh, at one point it's going to hallucinate.

It's just that's and this is, I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong with the idea, it's just the scale.

It's not completely thought out, I can tell you.

No, no, no, no.

But I love it.

But the scale.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's like...

But the scale is a challenge.

With generative AI, full stop.

With generative AI,

I just have to wonder if this is not part of the economic failure because it doesn't, it scales, but when you try and scale it in the traditional tech software way, subscriptions,

they're not making enough money

with it.

But even when you try and put it into ads,

ads are by definition going to be scaled to millions, hundreds of millions of people to make any money.

And if you're doing generative, you're going to have things like Google telling you to eat rocks.

I will tell you that I think this conversation isn't ready for that type of architecture because the generative tools are designed for generating.

They're not designed for consuming.

Sure.

I don't don't think there's a mass

that I don't think the volume of people is

at a point where average people are going to consume things based on a search criteria as a new rhythm.

I mean, that's how Google makes all its money.

And that's Google.

But if you're talking about these other tools that are thinking about how they actually monetize, it's from a creative perspective, not from a consumption perspective.

Yeah, I was just talking at scaling generative AI as an ad tech tool or an ad tool.

And in your reference to that example with Google.

Google.

Yeah, I'd be surprised if they're not

at least trialing that.

Oh, they just started trying it, but it's funny.

It's just

starting.

Gemini tools.

Yeah, well, no, they're now putting Gemini front and center, which is so funny.

It's just like...

Well, it definitely crowds out their homepage, let's just say that.

Well, that's the thing.

Like, Google's in this weird, this really weird spot now.

And actually, do you think it's a catch-up spot?

Tell me when you say weird, define that some more.

Well, I mean the Google search has never never been worse.

Right.

It's definitely

worse it's ever been.

It's a little bit like Craigslist of the 90s, yes.

By comparison, Craigslist's information was relatively validated.

I mean,

you didn't have Craigslist optimization experts, and if you did, I'd love to meet them.

But it's Google's position right now is they're behind on AI, even though it's like being the first to eat out of the toilet, in my opinion.

It's they're behind on AI.

They're

ad traffic is slowing.

Everything is kind of contracting with them, and they're desperate.

And people hate these AI search results.

So, yeah, they are in a weird spot.

But on top of it, I think we've actually noticed one thing, which is the core economics of tech are around ads, and ads have been the same for 15 to 20 years.

They've had

ads at scale.

Sure.

It's the at scale question that comes back to that because, you know,

everything sounds great in that statement until you say at scale.

Exactly.

Kind of the world,

oh, mate, you'll hear that at the creative brief stage, where it's like, how can we do this?

But it needs to scale.

I'm like, wow, but that's not, take that out of the vernacular of ads.

Take that out of the vernacular of media.

Everything is trying to scale.

The beauty industry is trying to do things at scale.

They're trying to do things at a high volume.

I mean, this is just part of the vocab.

It's an attempt to do something at scale with nuance, which is almost impossible, I imagine.

Yeah, that's a good observation.

I mean, look at the Super Bowl commercials.

They're all insane.

Every single Super Bowl commercial is like either old people doing something that young people do or 11 celebrities.

And I was watching this.

Lots of retro soundtracks.

Exactly.

And like big noises.

And I feel very stupid because now I understand they are trying to create something that...

They are trying to create something that everyone could enjoy.

Man, I know so little sometimes.

But that's, I mean, the truth of that is to matter for everybody means you matter for nobody.

Yeah.

And that analogy rings true there.

So there's something nostalgic and comfortable and okay,

but everything around it has to be super weird to try and make it fit, you know, in that example.

But, you know, I think a Super Bowl is a really good example of,

you know, it's a moment, right?

The rest of,

I don't know what happens on daytime TV, but those sort of ads don't turn up there, I suspect.

Yeah, because you would also be spending so much money on all of that.

You'd know more about the economics.

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I actually want to change gears slightly because you did write something related to nostalgia.

And

as a creative, as you as you go about your business, are you finding more demand on the client side for more nostalgic things returning to the 90s or the 2000s?

Are you finding any of that?

Yeah,

it's not a date stamp.

Yeah.

It's just a feeling.

And that nostalgic vibe is.

I think it's a throwback to.

Look, we're in a room right now that has a lot of nostalgia around it, man.

These buttons couldn't be more big.

Oh, I love them.

And these sort of analog knobs, and you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Creaky chairs.

And, you know, the only thing that's modern in here are the Shaw mics.

Everything else is kind of retroed, including the.

And Daniel Goodman's wonderful skills.

And the MDR headphones, whatever we're wearing right now.

But what's amazing about this is

there's a throwback one to those who are old enough to know about nostalgia and those of them young enough to be curious about it.

Because they didn't grow up with it, but they're super curious to read through liner notes and understand that there's a flip side to an LP.

And

there's something very moorish about slowing it down because everything is highly consumptive.

Even in the time we've spoken, I've saw you pick up your phone

half a dozen times.

No, it's once, I can't.

Can I not exaggerate?

No.

But what's amazing about this is that there's something really kind of about that distraction

that anchors it.

There's something beautiful about nostalgia.

And I'm going to keep harping on about it because I see it pop up.

I mean, Super Bowl is a classic example.

I think I counted like 11 songs or something here.

I'm going to misquote that, but I could pick everything from bloody Huey Lewis to

Journey or something.

And I'm like, my God, you know, firstly, what happened?

And secondly, is this the only thing we have as this throwback?

There's something really unique about it.

I have to wonder if it's not a bit of trying to ignore reality as well.

You talk about,

I don't mean it in a bad way.

When you look at the news, it sucks.

You look at like everything kind of sucks.

You talk about the idea that we're constantly getting, we're having to engage with our devices constantly.

And I agree.

And it's the kind of a return to a time when we weren't harassed by them, even though we, I love being online, but at the same time, no, I fucking hated it before online.

I'm not going to pretend.

I imagine normal people crave the time of not being online constantly and not having, because it's not just like content, it's you get work emotions, you get your texts from people mad at you, you get a text from a t-shirt company you bought from 15 years ago.

It feels like maybe people are craving

an off-ramp almost.

Yeah,

or permission to have one at least.

Yes.

Can I also say, though, there's something about perhaps this fast culture that we've generated

and this futuristic vibe that we've been in.

Something, and what I mean, but I'm just going to apply this to,

I'm just going to apply this to a thought in that statement you said about nostalgia.

When I watch a brand like BMW online and I see their cars which look amazing,

the love that a retro car, like an old car that they did, like back in the 80s, a boxy M-series or something, an M3 or something, 325i or something,

it gets way more love and commentary than anything they've got either in market or even planning on doing.

Hyundai is a classic example.

They, you know, they threw out this, they might bring back this boxy, beautiful.

Oh, is this the electric one, but it's like an 80s?

Yeah, dude.

Oh, god.

And it's got the, you know, it's got the square lights.

And

you will see people go into every single design detail, like the white wall tire to the type of mud cap.

You don't get that sort of detail today.

It's all spec, right?

And it's not, there's no emotion to it.

But you look at these things that feel like,

and it's not bygone emotion, it's a different era of freedom.

And maybe that's kind of the thing that is a land.

Like, terrestrial radio, it's probably

still massive.

I mean, I have been so bloody successful.

Terrestrial radio is unbelievable.

And I think it's because in a world of just sudden conversations, you have real ones.

The reason that I like doing the reason that any listener is curious about this, the reason I don't do a lot of virtual interviews is they kind of suck.

Like, I made them pretty good.

But the in-person, it's having the microphone.

It's like hearing yourself the bassy tones.

Right, right.

I also have to wonder if the reason that people are nostalgic for things like an old car or like a CD player or whatever is it felt like the companies gave more of a shit.

Because you talk about that thing of

scaling,

it's built for everyone, but built for no one.

Every car kind of looks the same.

They all have the kind of Tesla-esque

curve to it, or like they look like a Porsche Cayenne, not a car guy.

They all kind of look and feel the same.

And people are craving something that feels like anyone cared about building it maybe yeah and maybe it all got to a point i think maybe designing culture generally has got to a point where it feels like it's efficient yes and that efficiency means it's not i'm not tied to any of it dude you know what i mean yeah and that evolution of design means that if you've got efficiency already because you're using battery technologies and you're using something that doesn't have to feel like it looks like a pin so it becomes wind efficient and you build something that's square square square square god bless i think it's amazing i think this is why people don't like generative ai AI content as well, because it really, the point we were making earlier that it all kind of looks the same, it has the uncanny valley.

It feels like, wow, no love went into it.

Not just like this is mass produced.

It's not even mass produced.

It's this sub-production where we're creating this thing

for nobody and everybody at the same time.

I'm not going to debate generative AI's efficacy with you any further.

I'm sorry about that.

But

it's more

we're all kind of of craving a return to a time when things felt like they were made for someone, that they were made with a bit of a soul.

And

it sucks to be in this world and it and it sucks to and I think that nostalgia is the natural it's kind of the natural end point of a culture that has escaped any kind of personalization or joy in the creation of anything mass market.

Even the utility of these things doesn't feel like it's for people.

You know, Ed, as you're having this discussion and I'm with you, I look out at the screen that we're facing, and Flowrider was on.

Oh, is he?

And before that was Flavor Flave.

And I think before that, I might have seen Snoop.

And I look at that and think, to your point, there's something about

this cycle of comfort and familiarity that I think is really interesting because what you're talking about is,

by the way, I will just put a pin in this and say that I think the generative AI creation will absolutely be for everything other than the human.

And when you want to put a human in in it, just film them and then add them to this generative, crazy background and utopia if you want to do it.

So these blended AI experiences will happen.

But I do think that because it's called CGI previously.

But I actually, I'm going to push back on that and say, I believe that will happen.

Yeah.

But I think people are going to get really upset with it because you're kind of seeing it with Severance and the Mandalorian when they're doing these weird, I don't know what it's called, but it's when they do the on-shot thing where it's they pretend they're outside.

And for a while, it convinced people.

Then you saw it enough times, you're like nope fucking motherfucker but what it would also do though is it'll it'll inspire you when you see something that's really designed by cutting up the cardboard box to make it feel like a cardboard box and i can show you some really good examples of people that push back against that and say we're just going to film this thing analog dude oh yeah and feel it and it feels so different and it does and it's just we're we're getting back to maybe nostalgia is just wishing that people that creatives gave not creatives yeah it feels like the mechanisms of creatives more than anything gave a shit gave Gave a shit and felt like they were putting any thought into it other than just kind of simmering it down for everyone, making creative.

I've almost bought the Samsung flip phone a couple of times.

Oh, it's so cool.

Yeah, it's so cool.

I love it, Android.

I use it.

Exactly.

I need my iMessage.

I need it.

I'm a pig.

And I don't have two phones.

It just drives me crazy.

But even the Motorola looks amazing.

But there's something about that time when you'd have a flip phone and buttons and all that sort of rush.

I didn't.

I didn't have a flip phone.

The Nokia.

Chocolate bar, Nokia.

Oh, that was so good, though.

It's funny.

It's funny, though.

Chocolate bar, Nokia.

Oh, yeah.

But even then, it kind of fucking sucked.

I don't know why I'm pretending like I like this device.

The moment the iPhone is.

Because you're probably still talking on the phone, and that sounded mama.

Oh, God, no.

You did what it did on the tin.

No, I just.

You were texting with all those buttons?

Yes.

Oh, I'm a freak in many ways.

And it's just funny because.

As we discuss all these different bits, it really is just like creativity is considered this stepchild of ads.

Ads are the way that a lot of people are exposed to an alarming amount of creativity.

And it feels like people

at scale are kind of becoming more aware of how much is manufactured for them.

Maybe it's not just that thing, maybe it's not that things have changed a ton.

I believe they have, obviously, but it's that they've kind of, people are more aware now of when they're being fucked with, when they're being given the same slop, when they're being given, and I think that corporations may have slightly overplayed their hand.

In the mass production era, I mean, you'll see that with foods.

You'll see that with, I mean, education in that criteria is way more transparent and interesting than it used to be because you don't have to have,

you know, you can consume less and probably feel better.

I have a question for you.

Is that an aura ring?

What do you have?

Yes, I'm got an aura ring.

Why are you wearing it?

Because I attract my sleep.

Oh, you do?

My workouts.

And you're actually, you are using it as a utility?

I am.

How long have you had it?

Two years?

Yeah, generation.

Like a generation.

One, isn't it?

Oh, three.

And do you find.

So do you do anything with the data?

Or you just sleep?

Does it just reassure you?

Oh, then emotional.

Oh, no, this is the terrible choice if you wanted any gotcha.

No, so actually, I'm really interested in my sleep because I realized a few years ago that my sleep was fucked and I couldn't work out why.

I was depressed.

But I've become fascinated by what, I don't know, weed or alcohol will do to me.

Not that I'm like experimenting, but if I have a bad night's sleep, I like to look at it and say, all right, this does affect me.

I've just got this thing called a Somni as well.

What is it?

It's like a thing you strap to your head and it has the little electrodes that go onto the top.

This fella does.

You sleep with that on?

No.

You just put it on, it does like 15 minutes before bed.

It has increased my REM sleep and I have been feeling shocked.

Sure.

Yeah.

I'm annoying.

Sorry, what does this thing do?

Does it give you sending electrodes into you or something?

It has some sort of waves it doesn't you.

I should be able to say this offhandedly.

But you're finding your sleep cycles better?

Yes.

Now, are you finding that the patterns you, your sleep cycles previously, once you've sort of indicated, I'm having a crappy night's sleep, has it changed your behavior?

Yes.

Like how proximity of using any substances before bed, like

what I eat when I eat.

That was a big thing, like eating late.

I also.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

So you really are digging into the data.

Yeah, because otherwise, why am I wearing this thing that on dating apps convinces people that I'm married?

Yeah, amen.

It's very fucking annoying.

There's something interesting about the adoption of these sort of technologies.

Like athletes, for example, will

clearly fall back to things like the whoop band and

they'll wear a garmin or a

wear these technologies that have been around for a long time for athletes, but

the eye watches of this world or the

eye watch.

No, no, no, no, that just means you've been around a while.

You're just still saying the shit before they'd even announced it.

But what's interesting to me is these, you know, the subtlety of technology, while it calms down and gives you what you need, hopefully that changes your psychology.

Now, you don't necessarily see that on the phone because all the phone does is kind of distract you or take you down a rabbit war.

And so I was just super curious about what your behavior is, your relationship with that sort of tech.

But it is.

Because I've pushed away from all of it.

I generally do.

Like I, with my workouts, I track my calories.

And that is emotional.

Yeah, good on you.

No, that is absolutely emotional.

And that's like I mean, that's a good use case for that.

But if I, but, oh no, I use it.

But this is the ultimate tech bullshit, though.

I don't use this to track all my workouts.

I track boxing with this.

Oh, you do it?

You box with the ring on?

Yeah.

You bandage your hand up like that with the ring on?

No, you get quick raps on.

Okay.

Yeah.

It just doesn't crush your fingers, haven't it?

It did with certain raps.

Yeah.

Okay.

But it's.

It's not the lowest profile ring, that's why I'm asking.

No, it's really not.

It's like the chunky one.

Victoria's Song of the Verge was.

Are we spending too much time with the aura rings?

I don't care.

This is my show.

I'll do whatever the hell I want.

I can say fucking shit and balls and all that.

It is funny, though, because all of this talk about nostalgia, it is kind of where even I personally am leaning.

I'm listening to fucking metal from 15 years ago.

My favorite Inflames album is Colony, which is 20 years old and barely resembles the band anymore.

Like one of my favorite movies is the Guardians of the Galaxy movie, the first one, which is inherently nostalgic.

And those movies got shit as all it became about was nostalgic.

And now I've just had a live thought, which is...

That is the thing that's that is actually something that's driving a lot of culture, which is the reason the Marvel movies did well at the beginning was they were fun, they were nostalgic, they had these characters you'd love to see, and they got progressively worse as these companies were like, okay, what do people like about this?

Fuck it, it's the people they recognize.

Look, it's the guy from the thing, the corporatization of nostalgia.

I think it's

but it does get rebooted, right?

So, if you look at the music videos that are playing back here, half those soundtracks, and I'm paraphrasing this,

are using a soundtrack that's retro.

Yeah.

And there's something, it's familiar, right?

You hear this backbeat and think, that seems like that's funky trim drama from you know James Brown.

You hear that in the track and think, okay, there's a reason why that works because it's just good.

And there's something about the time that that was done.

And it wasn't created to scale.

Right.

Seriously.

Nor was it generative AI.

They're putting even aside generative AI for now.

I just mean like because if you look at this, there have been multiple things on TikTok where it's like a band has popped up.

You're like, wow, they're so good.

Or people have said this.

And it's turned out to be like, they're pretending to be a garage pen, but it's actually a signed artist with United.

Right, right, right.

And it's...

It's fate and switch.

Yeah, and there's so much of it now.

And there are things that are made to be to appear normal and natural that are absolutely not.

And I think people are craving normality again.

They're craving things that don't feel mass-produced.

I agree with you.

It's a funny time.

Yeah, I wrote about craft this week, and it was really just about, you know, if you've got all these tools that make you feel like happy hands.

What do you mean, happy hands?

Like very excited.

All right.

And I can defend that all day, every day.

But what I lean towards is craft.

You know, I will all day, every day, rather a pen and pencil than trying to scribble something down on my iPad.

So there's just something more visceral.

And I'm leaning towards that as a test to make sure I'm not losing my rods and cones.

That it's not just down this rabbit's warren of distraction, that I can actually be, you know, back to creation.

Are you, well, you say you're like aware of your phone nagging you.

Are you generally, do you surround yourself with tech or do you try to play?

I'll push back again.

How so?

So I had all the tech that made me look like a tribal leader like you.

I mean, I get it, dude, but I did.

When I don't, gamifying data doesn't excite me about myself.

Right.

And it's not that interesting.

And so

the thing that's wild for me is nature.

I mean, tech is, yeah, it's great to know, but what am I going to do with it?

And I don't know if I want to do that with it, whatever that is.

So, no, I try not to.

I'm trying to push back to,

you know, no, not trying to push back.

I'm trying to restrict the amount of things that occupy my mind and take my attention away from

creating.

And what are you creating?

And is it for, is it just for you?

I know, I'm right.

You know, yeah, it is really, I have this concept of addition of one.

It really is just for me, and it doesn't matter if it doesn't scale.

And, you know, I'm a classically trained designer, so I'm back to full design outside of my creative practice.

And I have a wet studio, so I'm in the

wet studio?

Yeah, I'm married to an artist.

We have, you know, what is a wet studio?

We have paints in the thing that are constantly dry.

I mean,

it's very practical, dude, and it's not

screen-free.

A lot of it is just back to articulating things,

you know, playing music, you know, things that actually feel like I play guitars, sing, all that rubbish.

But it's fun.

But it's, oh, it's fantastic.

I'd love, I love sports.

But more of that than just sort of being a participant.

Yeah.

I'd rather be actively participating in it, which is why I can't stand sports.

I mean, I can't stand sitting and watching sports.

I'd rather play football if I'm going to kick.

I'd rather go out in the field and kick if I'm going to kick.

I can't really sit back and watch it.

It drives me nuts.

Interesting.

But there's something about kind of

just taking that position of the polymath.

I've got lots of ideas that I want to express.

Let's get them down on paper.

But they're expressed for you rather than

unless others find it interesting.

I've got a fashion collab that I'm doing, and I've got these artisans and craftspeople in Mexico that are actually hand stitching this embroidery instead of digital embroidery, which I could have done.

And finding it sitting on, it's sitting on the fabric differently.

I mean, it's all of these things that are slow crafts, they're bloody, it's just awesome, dude.

It really is.

No, it's it slows me down.

It puts me in a place that feels more conscious.

It's funny because this show came from a newsletter that I wrote for 300 people.

58,500 now.

And this show started with a lot of people being being very unfair to me on Reddit.

And I will admit, I changed that.

Welcome to the internet.

Oh, no, fuck yeah.

I didn't change shit.

I just kept doing it until I felt good.

And it's interesting how the show's done well based on that rather than trying to change it for anyone.

Partly because I didn't, I never really understood why I would change for them.

Like, I, it was like a horse idiot 55 has told me they don't like it when I say this.

What the fuck am I meant to do?

Write it down and like avoid the word.

Fuck that.

It just, it feels that

that is also another another thing plaguing creatives that there is this apparent source of derision and judgment on tap right and you have to do that to scale to do that and the desperation for engagement is kind of sucking the joy out of even the process it's too slow yeah it must be done this fast we must be timely yeah but there's one thing that's definitive is there's only certain amount of time in a day, isn't there?

You can't create new version of it, but you can participate in it differently.

I think this has been an interesting conversation for me because I didn't know what we were going to chat about, if anything.

Yeah.

And I'm an admirer of your work, so congrats on all you're doing.

Thank you so much, Shingy.

I think we can wrap it there.

Where can people find you, Shingy?

You know, the interwebs.

Yes, but where?

Okay, I'll put it in the episode.

I'm easily found on LinkedIn.

Shingy, you could go to my.com.

I'm there too, hanging out.

Yeah.

Yeah, but you know, it's, yeah, this has been a blast.

Thanks for coming in on a hot streak about Jen.

Of course.

and we exit out on pottery here

straight into my mum's butter as well

K Zitron all right you've been listening to me my name's Ed Zittron you can google the who destroyed Google search and you will find the answer is me

thank you so much to Daniel Goodman our wonderful producer here in New York and thank you of course to all of you for listening you'll now hear a very similar message after that I recorded in February of last year and I swear I'm gonna re-record Matt Asaski and I were talking about this yesterday peace out

Thank you for listening to Better Offline.

The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Osowski.

You can check out more of his music and audio projects at matosowski.com.

M-A-T-T-O-S-O-W-S-K-I dot com.

You can email me at easy at betteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and of course my newsletter.

I also really recommend you go to chat.where's your ed.at to visit the discord and go to r slash betteroffline to check out our reddit.

Thank you so much for listening.

Better offline is a production of cool zone media.

For more from coolzone media visit our website coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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