The Black Market for AI GPUs with Steve Burke

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Hello and welcome to Better Offline.

I'm your host, Ed Zitron.

And of course, you can go into the notes for the episode.

You can take a look at links for my newsletter.

You can go and buy some merch, as always.

But much more importantly, today I'm joined by the esteemed Steve Burke of Gamers Nexus.

Steve, thank you for joining us.

Thanks for having me.

So, you did an incredible video on the black market smuggling of NVIDIA's AI GPUs into China, and then there has been a thing that's happened where the video has been pulled down due to a DMCA complaint from Bloomberg.

What is happening, Steve?

Yeah, it's so the video, it's a really cool video where we went all over China finding these GPUs.

As part of that, we included a recap of all the news of export controls where the U.S.

controls GPUs that are above a certain performance threshold and the allowance to export those to China by American companies.

And so that was the story.

We wanted to look into, okay, but they're still getting to China.

And so how is that?

And as part of that recap, go through all the news.

We've got clips of various politicians.

There was a clip of Obama in there.

And there was a clip of Trump in there, a couple of them, talking about AI or GPU export control bans.

Of course, AI, I know, Ed, is one of your favorite topics.

My faves, yes.

Yes.

Me as well.

And

yeah, so we received a copyright strike from a

small publication called Bloomberg.

Oh, that.

yeah so so that strike took the video offline and uh now we are currently challenging it and so the strike was for specifically i believe it was minutes 22 until minute 2315 in the video of donald trump speaking the president of america correct yes that is ludicrous and you went to new york specifically to have it out with them did they what where do we stand as we speak because this is going out in about a week from now it's august 28th so who knows what happened?

26th, even.

Don't know what will happen next.

Yeah, if it goes out in about a week, then that'll be pretty close to when we should have an update from YouTube.

Because the video is off right now.

Correct.

The video is gone.

And

it's very interesting how copyright strikes work because

if basically the way it works is a company files a strike, they decide

if there's infringement of some kind and they file it.

YouTube then

basically, especially for a company Bloomberg's size, will automatically approve it.

It's then up to the creator to dispute that.

The video is offline during this entire process.

Any money from the video is held at least in escrow.

And so then you can dispute it if you want.

At that stage, YouTube then decides if it's going to accept your dispute.

It accepted ours.

It's written by a lawyer, so that makes sense.

And then they step back and they're like, okay, we're not involved anymore.

It's between you guys.

And so the party that filed the claimant, so Bloomberg here, has 10 business days to file proof of lawsuits.

So if they submit to YouTube proof that they are suing us, which thus far as we record this, they have not,

then at that stage, YouTube would keep the video offline and they kind of let the two parties resolve that amongst themselves.

If they don't submit, any proof of a lawsuit or they don't file a lawsuit and then show YouTube that they've done so.

Again, they haven't at this point.

Then, basically, in 10 business days, the video goes back up.

We get fucked over for the 10 days in between, and

then the money in theory should be released back to us, the ad revenue that was made from it, if it follows that course.

But the biggest damage that's done is from the loss of momentum in those, you know, total time period, maybe 13 days or so.

But why would Bloomberg do this?

Are they really that attached to videos of Donald Trump or is it something else?

I mean,

I,

yeah, we talked about this in our video where we flew out to try and speak with them.

I have a number of theories.

We don't know their motive precisely, but

there's a few strange things going on where...

First of all, I've noticed that they have not claimed any or struck any that I'm aware of of the re-uploads of the video.

So that's interesting because there's hundreds of them.

It was just ours that went up initially.

Secondly, we have used that clip before, and that hasn't been stricken.

And so it was specifically in this black market video.

And

yeah, the theories we came up with were there's some competing content from Bloomberg where they attempted to do what we did.

It was really a failed attempt.

They tried to find smuggled AI GPUs in China as far as they kind of presented it in data centers.

They were unable to do so.

They couldn't get any access.

They filmed sand in a desert.

They go home.

There's also...

That's all they got.

Yeah.

They drive around in a desert.

They point the camera at some buildings that are being constructed.

They say, you know, there's AI GPUs in them there hills.

And then that's about it.

It's kind of funny that you appear to, on your own own and with your team, obviously, able to get this access that these large legacy media people don't, which it's meant to be the other way around based on what everyone says.

So what is it that makes your approach different to Bloomberg's?

Like, why did you get stuff that they didn't?

Other than just the desert?

Right.

Yeah.

Well, to be fair, we did not film a desert, so they did have an exclusive there.

But I think

it comes down to the approach where we looked at it like, this is an interesting concept, this idea of black market GPUs.

But from my point of view, we approached it as, well, let's just see what are the people involved in this chain think.

And do they think it's a black market or do they just think it's a market?

And a lot of the people we worked with, were just, I think, amused at the concept of being involved in the media process and wanted to see how it works.

And so, I honestly, I think a lot of that access, especially to the people who are just sort of like normal people, they're not these big, you know, executives at some huge corporation.

They're middlemen and they're people transacting GPUs on the ground.

I think for them, if you go into it without this

presupposition of some kind of particular,

I don't know, leaning or ethics of whether what they're doing is or isn't okay or whatever.

Or even expecting what you'll find in a vote.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I think if you go in with an open mind of like, we're just going to hang out with this guy for a day and just observe his job, people are, you know, they're pretty happy to share that.

So

yeah.

How did you actually start, though?

So you came up with the idea that you wanted to see how illicit GPUs are making it into China.

Did you have contacts in China or Hong Kong and so on that you talked to in advance?

And they kind of said, Oh, if you come here, we can show you this.

What was the process?

Yeah, the process was really cool.

We're still kind of learning

how to iterate on this, but each time we're the big thing we learned this time for this investigation was

really just trying to that first contact matters a lot and being able to work with that first person we find to then find their contacts and kind of follow the chain down the line.

And so the first guy we found is a professor at the Chinese University of Hong Kong.

He buys and uses these high-end GPUs

in servers for educational purposes and research purposes.

And as soon as we made contact with him,

we were able to work with someone who, first of all, speaks, you know, native level, excellent English.

So that certainly helped.

And then secondly, who who has a lot of local knowledge and contacts?

And I think a lot of it is just kind of knowing

which,

in our case, which link in the chain you need next to make the story make sense.

So, in his case, he's a user of these GPUs.

So, next, we need is some kind of supplier, you know, and then we need their supplier.

Yeah.

So, what it's all quite complex.

I did watch the video, and it was, it was, what, three, three hours or so, or more, even?

It was pretty wonderful.

And so, what exactly are the GPUs that are restricted?

Was it just AI GPUs?

Was it like consumer-level ones as well?

What is exactly being handed around?

It's both.

So,

on the high-end side,

there's some

smuggling and presence of these data center-class GPUs.

So, that'd be things like H100s, Hopper 100s, A100s.

We actually physically saw several of those, and

things like that.

On the consumer side,

there aren't as many restricted consumer GPUs, but there are a few.

So the RTX 5090 is one of them

that has 32 gigabytes of video memory, so that's very valuable for these use cases.

The RTX 4090 actually is another one.

And that one's kind of amusing because it's a Cuba GPU, right?

Yes, consumer GPU, yeah.

And

last gen, consumer GPU at that.

But it's easily modified to carry double the video memory as the actual official NVIDIA spec in the SKU.

So they can

increase it from 24 to 48 gigabytes of memory, which is extremely valuable for these

training and LLM type tasks where it may be a last gen, so it's technically a little bit slower.

But if you can fit it in memory, you can still run it, versus if you can't fit it in memory, the model, you may not be able to run it at all.

And so, those are the consumer cards.

The 40-90, though, is interesting because one of the guys we spoke to,

who

is effectively a buyer and seller of these banned GPUs,

he was asking me on camera,

he was seeking confirmation of, well, but are you sure the 5090 is banned?

And I said, yeah, I'm sure.

Here it is on the list.

And he was so confused because he said,

but

they're just all over the market next door.

And we walk over there and there's dozens of them.

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it's so strange as well because it doesn't seem like if you basically walked off the plane and had a price sheet from just a guy like it wasn't clear how you got the price sheet exactly and perhaps you can't say but it was just yeah these things are banned other than the fact we have just like guys who sell them literally everywhere yeah

and how are they getting in

uh so there's a couple ways the one of the ones that we showed in the video is really interesting um so the very end of the process we actually this is one of the reasons we delayed initial publication we were able to uh with help of a viewer locate someone you could actually classify as a smuggler in the u.s so uh someone from china in the u.s

and uh

he buys gpus from people in the U.S.

He drives around all over and buys mostly 4090s, which are in high demand in China.

And then he'll strip those down, so that could be removing the cooler.

I don't think this particular guy desolders them.

I've heard stories of some people desoldering GPUs and mailing them.

That would reduce your shipping cost a lot, increase your margin.

But he buys the 4090s, ships the boards back.

His profit's about $300 US per board before taxes.

It wasn't 100% clear if he does or doesn't pay taxes.

And then at that point,

once they are either shipped into

Hong Kong or Macau

directly, if they feel gutsy enough, or indirectly through a third country, a middle country where there is no export control,

then they arrive and they get redistributed from there.

They're sometimes hand carried as well, like by students.

international students who just fly back with a 59 they bought at Best Buy or something and they can double their money roughly if they're lucky.

That's so it's wacky that there there is such a big black market, but I guess the export bands just created it, as did this whole AI,

this crazed AI moment.

In fact, while you were over in Hong Kong, did you actually go to China?

I can't remember.

Or was it just in Hong?

So did you.

This is an anecdotal thing.

How was the pressure of AI there?

How big was the conversation, the advertisement?

Did you see it on the same level?

It's fine if you didn't.

I'm just curious.

I saw it more in Taiwan, which we went to as well.

So, yeah, after the China trip, we went over to Taiwan, and I don't think it made it into the cut, but we shot a short clip of just a bus, like a public bus with a gigantic AI

laptop advertisement on it.

So, I would say it's kind of, at least there, it's similar to what you see here, where it's, you know,

if you're anywhere in the vicinity of a, of a Best Buy or a city that has technology dealers, then you're going to see AI ads.

In China,

yeah, you saw it in the tech markets for sure, some banners, but it just, it, I don't know, that's

I only understand Chinese if I'm actively trying to understand it, you know, so it's, I think a lot of that gets filtered out for me, right?

I was gonna, yeah, I assume you speak some, you seem to speak some Chinese.

I can't speak anything but English, so I could not correct your Chinese at all.

You do speak more proper English than I do, though.

So I'll give you a question.

Yeah,

yeah, I speak all kinds of it these days.

It's not going well.

People criticize my accent all the time.

So, as far as how the government sets these limits, one thing you did really eloquently towards the beginning of the video as well was you kind of went through how arbitrary the limits seem to be and how NVIDIA seems very capable of adapting around them to the point that it almost doesn't make sense.

Yeah, yeah, they've modified the regulations a few times, and

it's

so this particular

part.

I don't really blame Nvidia for for this, which is just trying to, you know, the government sets some regulations,

and a company says, Okay, we'll comply with these, and then they comply with them, and then the government kind of says, No, wait, not like that.

Yeah, and that's very standard for pretty much all regulation.

It may be good or bad, what have you, but it's not

it happens all the time with companies, yes.

And in this case, one of the things that as

the, I guess, AI world developed and the applications, one of the things that changed was

this understanding that memory capacity is basically the most important aspect of it.

And the initial versions of the formula didn't consider memory in any scenario.

From what I remember, it was

based on the marketed flops of performance on the spec sheet multiplied against the bit length of the operation or something like that.

They later added memory bandwidth.

Memory capacity, though, is still, as far as I'm aware right now, is still not considered in the formula.

Yeah, it feels just arbitrary, but I imagine also it's quite difficult to find a way to do this, especially when the people setting the regulation might not have the best handle on computers.

Yeah,

I think the best way to do this would probably be if they wanted to, and I'm not, I don't have a particular one way or the other, but if they wanted to control it, I think the best way is probably some kind of benchmark or set of benchmarks, just like you would do for a review where

you say, okay, if it exceeds some performance threshold in this real-world use case or multiple of them in aggregate, then

it's export controlled.

But instead, they just kind of calculate based on the spec sheet.

And the companies that make these things, obviously, you know, full appropriate credit to NVIDIA.

The company is extremely competent with making GPUs.

They know what they're doing.

And

they're going to know a lot more about how to tweak those dials to comply

than a government agency will.

So on the subject of NVIDIA knowing things, do you think that do they seem aware of any of this?

Any of this smuggling happening?

Do they seem to did you get any comment out of them?

We asked a lot of the people in the chain what their perception was of NVIDIA's awareness.

And

so the professor at the Chinese University of Hong Kong, he had a great answer when I asked him, Do you think Nvidia knows?

And he kind of paused for a second and then he said, well, how could they not?

You know, like these things are very expensive.

You've got $30 plus thousand dollar GPUs and it just seems like they would all be tracked.

So, what was the term?

There was a specific term

as well for like kind of like basically equivalent of ignoring him, yeah.

So, the Chinese is Jan Yi Jian, B E Jian, which means open one eye, close one eye, or turn a blind eye is the idiom.

Yeah,

and um,

that's awesome, it's just very cool, yeah.

It's super, I mean, the coolest part about that was

multiple people said that exact idiom.

And

it's such a specific choice of words.

It'd be the same as if you asked three people a question, you know, and they all said, oh, they turn a blind eye.

At some point, you're like, okay, this seems to be a real, like consistent belief here.

But yeah, I think from NVIDIA's standpoint, it's

whether or not they want to actually control what gets in, it's hard to say.

Certainly, from a pure financial standpoint, the more GPs they sell, the more money they make.

They probably don't really care who they sell them to as long as they sell them to someone and then where they end up after that.

I mean, maybe to the extent that NVIDIA doesn't want to piss off the United States government,

they try to comply as much as they reasonably can, but how much do they actually try to control

ingress into a country that's export-controlled?

It's hard to say.

But

certainly I think they are aware of this happening.

I just, I have a really hard time believing that they are unaware their GPs are making it into China when they shouldn't be.

And I imagine it must be quite hard to stop.

Like, I hate to have any sympathy for NVIDIA, but it does feel like something that would be kind of a moving target because one thing that was consistent across the whole video was the ingenuity of the people involved.

It does make, you see, like American entrepreneurs sometimes and they're like, oh, yeah, it's tough to, you know, the hours are very tough.

And, you know, I was coding all night.

And all of these guys were just like, yeah, I've got a thing in the back of my car full of wires.

Yeah.

I have a whole rig.

Yeah, it's crazy.

And that is, I mean, again,

you know, from that particular

side of things,

I don't suspect,

I mean, look, it's a government regulation.

And if the government government wants to regulate it, it's kind of up to them.

Obviously, the companies need to comply with it, but I wouldn't expect a company, even NVIDIA, to send in any kind of enforcement.

Maybe what they would do is, if they wanted to enforce it, you know, they might identify, okay, this purchaser,

there's evidence of this purchaser exporting to China anyway, and so we're just going to stop selling to them or something.

But that's kind of, I think, the most you might expect of them.

But yeah, as far as the ingenuity, it was pretty crazy.

Like the guy in the U.S.

who buys the cards,

he's just got a Prius with a massive

battery bank in the back, like a UPS with a lithium-ion battery in it.

He's got a test bench hooked up to it, an ATX test bench, pops the trunk open.

He's got a spare license plate in the trunk for some reason.

I don't know why.

Best not to ask.

Best not to ask.

Yeah, don't need to know.

And yeah, and if you want to sell him your card, you're just some American who found them on Facebook Marketplace.

He, at the time we, we were talking with him, he was paying $2,000 flat.

He makes $300 when he sells it.

And you bring him the card, meet him wherever.

He tests it.

And

in the back of the, you know, in the trunk of the car, he just runs a benchmark, makes sure it's good, and then buys it, ships it back, or carries it back, depending on how secure he feels.

And then also to your point of ingenuity, the shops that are capable of modifying cards where they're just repair shops and they just happen to be really good at board level BGA or ball grid array device repair or swapping.

And so they can pull memory modules, they can add memory modules, swap the GPU between PCBs, and they're able to keep silicon in service where they're just repair shops.

So it's kind of like from their perspective, look, they're not doing anything illegal in China.

They're just keeping boards in service.

But for people who need these high-capacity GPUs for AI tasks and they happen to be export controlled, a shop like this would be capable of taking a card that has died

through use

or just needs to be upfit to be better.

And they can do that for pretty cheap and basically in a couple hours.

And it's not illegal to sell them in China once they are there, right?

They've like that that is not a crime.

Like China is not prosecuting people for any of this.

Correct.

It is not illegal to own or sell these GPUs or buy them

in China.

It's illegal if you are an American company, if you're NVIDIA or you're Best Buy or a partner or whatever, it would be illegal to sell

the export controlled cards to a company or an entity or person in China.

But once it's there, yeah, there's no real control over it.

The only place that we found that China steps in is if there's some kind of undeclared ingress through port.

So, like, for example, there were CPUs and GPUs at various points in the last several years that were smuggled in with crates of live lobsters or prosthetic baby bombs.

But was that real?

Was the lobster thing real?

The lobster thing was real, despite what Nvidia said.

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Hell yeah.

I love the so what actually describe the full lobster situation.

I think everyone wants to want to hear it about the lobster.

Yes, so

the lobster situation, as it were, is

basically there was a Hong Kong

port.

So, customs intercepted a white van, I think it was.

There's like a customs post.

They post photos of the things that they are able to snipe

being brought in improperly.

So, Hong Kong's a free trade port, but there's still certain declarations you have to make, and sometimes people won't make those.

And so, there was a van bringing in crates of undeclared live lobsters

driving on, I think it was the Macau or the Juhai Bridge or something.

But anyway, they got intercepted, and alongside the live lobsters were GPUs,

and they were older.

I think they're quadros, but they're brought all being brought in improperly.

And yeah, so customs post the thing.

They're like, we found this, you know, and I think that's just kind of like the, here's us doing our job and maybe scare people off or whatever.

And then

later, and AI startup Anthropic released a statement

talking about how there needed to be more

strictly enforced export control in the U.S.

And they mentioned smuggling of GPUs with

lobsters.

NVIDIA responded, I don't have their statement in front of me right now, but it was something along the lines of it would be better if American

AI companies would focus on innovation rather than the part I do remember was tell tall tales of prosthetic baby bump smuggling or

GPUs sensitive electronics being smuggled with live lobsters.

Turns out that is not a tall tale.

That is a thing that happened.

This is the thing.

People say Jensen Huang is cool.

If you're cool, you say, yeah, our chips are like, we don't like this happening.

This is bad.

We're doing everything we can to stop it.

But yeah, they're doing James Bond shit to get our GPUs.

GPUs.

Like, come on.

You could just say that.

Like,

they do seem a little sensitive.

And we're recording this the day before their earnings.

And I got no idea what's going to happen.

No one does.

Everyone's a bit worried about it.

So it's, I think the China market is going to get extremely interesting because they've got the H20 ban, but now the H20 ban has been lifted.

And now we're in this weird spot where,

I don't know if you've heard anything about this yourself, where there are suggestions that the Chinese government is actively saying not to buy Nvidia GPUs.

Have you heard anything about that?

Yes.

So

the Chinese government, I believe it's called the cyberspace,

might be a security agency or something like that.

But one of their government agencies put out a statement following a separate statement from a

state-owned or at least state

controlled in some capacity media report where the statement said

or at least floated the possibility that NVIDIA's H-20s

may have some form of spyware in them.

And so the suggestions were tracking or government backdoors.

And so that was kind of the accusation.

NVIDIA,

of course, posted a statement saying, absolutely not.

This is not a thing.

And, you know,

just to be fair here, there's not currently, as far as we're aware of, any firm evidence of this, but I'm also sure that governments know things about, you know, about

products from other nations that we would never know anyway, so who knows.

But, but that's where it stood.

Nvidia said we don't have these.

China's agency said

to companies in China that they should be wary of using H20s and advised against purchasing them for fear of some kind of backdoor or spyware.

So how realistic would it be for

actually, did you hear any scuttlebutt around this of switching to like Huawei chips or something?

We did ask, yeah, I think we might have only kept one of those questions in the actual video, but I did ask a lot of people.

Huawei,

from the users' perspectives, the people we spoke to, they

none of the people we spoke to are using Huawei components right now.

So they're getting more powerful from what I understand.

I think there's a few hurdles.

One of them is it's kind of the same reason where the companies aren't even really using AMD, and they've been doing this for a while, whereas Huawei is pretty new.

And a lot of that comes down to CUDA, where NVIDIA is the proprietor of CUDA, which is a

library they can use to accelerate tasks and which a lot of software.

is written to use.

I mean, even just rendering a video.

It's the coding language to get accelerated computing, right?

Correct.

Yeah.

Specifically on NVIDIA GPUs, though.

Yes, it specifically works on NVIDIA and nothing else.

And so AMD would have to use, I don't know, OpenCL or something else, depending on like for video encoding, you'd maybe use OpenCL.

But that's the biggest limitation where a lot of the sort of so-called AI tasks are reliant on CUDA to operate at any reasonable speed.

And so until there's a big push to move away from that, it's NVIDIA GPUs all the way down.

And maybe the push is export control.

Maybe the groups in China that need a higher volume of GPUs than they're able to easily get eventually say, okay, let's just put all of our resources on trying to

use OpenCL or use something other PyTorch or whatever.

So that may be the direction it goes.

Yeah, it just feels, it does actually feel like CUDA is the

thing that needs to be broken here.

For better or for worse, I'm just saying that there's a lot of talk about, oh, making more powerful chips here and there with AMD or Huawei, but it feels like CUDA really is the thing that they actually need to change.

And I guess the probably explaining to the markets what CUDA is is difficult enough, but it feels that if they could move past CUDA, that would be the actual thing that would do it.

Yeah, it's kind of like the x86 situation where

getting off of x86.

And just for the listeners,

what do you mean by that?

Yeah, so your average computer is very likely an x86 computer, which is a specific microarchitecture that has to do with how software runs and interacts with the hardware and the other software on the system.

And so it's kind of like a prerequisite for you might have an application that requires Windows to be compatible.

And this is another one of those types of foundational prerequisites.

Okay, x86, as opposed to, for example, ARM.

And ARM laptops made kind of a splash a while ago because they were trying to

basically assert that, hey, look, we can run stuff that typically would only run on an old x86 microarchitecture, and now we can run it on ARM.

And so

that is something where Intel and AMD, although mostly Intel,

have a vested interest in

keeping everything on x86.

And likewise Nvidia has an interest in keeping things on CUDA.

From an end user standpoint, there are benefits to this where CUDA, for me, for rendering a video, it just works better than something else.

Right.

And so it's kind of, it is a chicken or the egg problem where it's kind of like, well, okay, you know, on one hand,

you don't want a company to develop a monopoly

only because there's some kind of anti-competitive practice that's keeping them in place.

On the other hand, you don't want to punish a company either for inventing something that's just better.

And the problem we run into with software is the developers need to choose what to support.

And a lot of times they choose NVIDIA and maybe not something else because if you have limited resources, you're going to go with what 90% of the market has.

It's kind of self-fulfilling, you know, it's a feedback loop, basically.

So to expand it to something like Huawei, they would have to break that CUDA.

I don't know if you want to call it a moat or something like that,

or a walled garden, I guess either one of those, or a walled garden with a moat around it.

But they would have to break that down to really become more viable and increase the performance.

So, before we go, did you catch any Blackwell out there or any signs that Blackwell would even make it out there?

Yeah, so in addition to the 5090s, which are Blackwell, as far as like the high-end server stuff,

we did work with,

so there's two companies we worked with here.

One of them we physically visited in Taiwan, and there's another one we were talking to in Singapore.

And what we learned is that there is some

intermediary basically pass-throughs that can happen through, for example, a Taiwanese testing agency where a Chinese company might ask them to purchase Blackwell servers or high-end hopper servers and bring them into Taiwan under their company, perform testing or pre-testing on them, assembly, whatever, packaging.

Whether it's a facade or not, basically, the stated purpose is to make sure it all works.

And then, once it does, forward that shipment to their customer, the Taiwanese company's customer in China.

And so, that would allow them to potentially get into China.

And so, in that situation, yeah, we were shown a room filled with, for example, GB or Grace Blackwell

servers that were being tested and prepped.

Yeah.

Well, I'm going to, I think we should wrap it there, there, Steve.

So, the status of the video right now as we record this is it's offline, but by the time this goes live, you know, in September the 3rd, it will go up.

Hopefully, it's back on.

Where can people support you?

Gamers Nexus, just the YouTube channel is the best place to go.

And

yeah, hopefully, it's back up within, should be within a couple days of you posting this,

unless Bloomberg submits

a files a lawsuit.

In which case, they'll hear about it.

Yeah, everyone will hear about it.

Oh, and they'll hear about it from me as well.

This is utter bullshit, what Bloomberg is doing.

It's ridiculous.

But you have been listening to Better Offline.

I'm Ed Zittron.

Steve, thank you so much for joining us.

And yeah, we're going to do something in a couple months as well.

But always a pleasure to have you, ma'am.

Thank you.

Right.

Thanks so much.

Thank you for listening to Better Offline.

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You can check out more of his music and audio projects at matasowski.com.

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