The Sugarland Express with Esther Zuckerman

Blank Jack with Griffin and David

Black Jack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect

All you need to know is that the name of the show is Black Jack

The true story of a podcast who took on all of Texas and almost won.

Oh, okay, so I found three different posters for this movie all of them have very weird taglines.

But this was a movie no one knew how to sell.

You can tell by when you look at the three posters where you're like, ah, there's just three attempts at getting it across.

I want to take the, let me recite the three at bats.

The one unifying element is all of them were like Goldie Hanpei.

Big big face, big, big Goldie push.

We have one undeniable movie star.

A Academy Award-winning movie star.

But the one you're quoting from, this one, like, it looks like she's just having a ball.

She's on the poster twice.

Yeah.

She's just going away.

She's just just smiling her giant smiling painted face directly below it her holding a shotgun the true story of a girl who took on all of texas and almost won okay then there's this one which is my favorite graphic poster that's the poster i think of i think it's the best right with the teddy bear right and her smile in that is a little more demented in a way that it comes closer to representing the film where it's like this is a woman on edge uh The tagline is a girl with a great following.

Every cop in the state was after her.

Everybody else was behind her.

And then the third poster I found, the tagline is,

this true but incredible event happened in Texas in 1969.

And it's just big Goldie Han shotgun Goldie Hawn in the Sugarland Express.

That's definitely not like,

obviously, everyone's always made fun of like based on a true story being a selling point, but like.

Based on a true story is supposed to come after your tag.

Correct.

It can't just be like,

this happened.

And I'm like, okay, what happened?

Goldie Han?

Yeah.

And there were cars.

Yeah.

You won't believe it.

She had a gun.

It's just funny that the first two taglines almost tell this like something about Mary.

Right.

Everyone's after Goldie.

A whole line of police cops.

This is a hard movie to sell, but I can understand how it was weirdly received at the time.

Especially if you're like expecting just a Goldie Han vehicle.

I understand, of course, why they were like, let's sell this a Goldie Hahn vehicle, not as a ensemble piece, which is what it is.

As you're saying, Goldie Hahn was an Oscar winning.

It was a Solomon Atherton vehicle.

We got Atherton.

We're going to talk about Atherton.

We will.

But this is

five years past her Oscar win.

Like, she's like

solidly in post-Oscar win era.

What does she win for?

Cactus Flower.

Cactus Flower.

Have you ever seen it?

Should we say it in a second?

Walter Mathow, Ingrid Bergman, Cactus Flower, introducing Goldie Han as Tony.

Cactus Flower, have you guys seen it?

I've never seen it.

I write about it in.

Yes, in your book, which we'll talk about.

Cactus Flower is incredibly charming.

It's really cute.

And she's good in it.

But she plays the girl who's in love with Walter Mathow.

Walter Mathow is this dentist is a funny duddy dentist.

Ingrid Bergman, who fucking rocks in is like his

shrinking violet, you know, who really isn't.

She had done Laughing, and that was her first real movie.

I'm saying Ingrid Bergman?

No, I'm saying Ingrid of course, was a main passion for Laughing.

And of course, her first film was Cactus Black.

Everything else, she was uncredited.

Casablanca, uncredited.

And Goldie is like this hippie.

She's a hippie.

She won an Oscar for playing the first hippie in a movie.

It's really how it felt.

Who like says she's gonna kill herself?

So Walter Mathow decides to tell her that he'll marry her, but he has to get divorced from his wife first,

but he doesn't have a wife.

So then he asks Ingrid Bergman to like pretend to be his wife.

And then obviously, like, he and Ingrid Bergman fall in love.

And then there's this other young hottie who Goldie falls in love with.

It is, it is an Americanized, modernized adaptation of a French farce stage play.

And if, and, and, and it's one of those movies you watch it, and then someone's like, based on a French farce, you're like, oh, okay, okay.

Decades later, it was remade by Adam Sandler and Dennis Dugan as just go with it.

Yes.

Oh, same basic.

In which Brooklyn Decker plays the Goldie Hahn role.

Right.

I mean, again, and Aniston plays the Isabella Rossellini or Ingrid Bergman.

Ingrid Bergman.

Yes.

Ingrid.

Isabella Rossellini Sr.

should have gotten Rossellini to play.

They should have.

That would have been good.

We were talking about Rossellini right before that.

Sandler, the math balance of his time?

In his time.

Kind of?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Different styles in a way, but like, yeah.

If Sandler announced tomorrow he was doing a Pillum one two three style oh that's

the fucking so good well because we like Sandler in New York most

we all experience at the thought of it well we just like him to be rumpled and New York

Sandler in a shitty suit as Pat Elza would put it eating a stale hot dog looking hungover

Just going like that description.

Well, like Matt Now in Cactus Fire isn't rumpled.

He's playing like it's like when you watch Mad Men and you're like, these kind of chubby guys with glasses would like pull babes, and it's like, yeah, man, New York in the 60s.

Like, you know,

that's Mathow.

The pen line I love is that, like, the 70s were such a weird time for movies that your action films would be like, only one guy can stop this, and the camera pans over to Walter Mathow in a crumpled suit eating a stale hot dog.

Uh, it's so true, but that's what she won her Oscar for.

And if I'm not wrong, she's only had one um apart from that, Private Benjamin.

She got nominated for Private Benjamin, right?

Is that it?

Yes.

Yes.

Let's find out.

But she

laughin' starts the year before Cactus Flower comes out.

This is a time when actors, and they look, this is a lot.

What we're talking about on our early Spielberg, transitioning from TV to film was difficult.

And she's transitioning from a sketch show to film.

And then her first movie, she wins an Oscar.

And then her follow-up movies are, There's a Girl in My Soup.

I have not seen that one.

Great title.

Dollar Sign.

Yeah, Dollar Sign.

1921, she makes a movie called Dollar Sign.

Known as Dollars.

Warren Beatty and Goldie Han and Dollars.

That's a bank robbery movie where she plays a lady of the night.

Butterflies Are Free.

Yeah.

And then this.

Butterflies Are Free was a big drama that went on Oscar itself, but not for Goldie Han.

But like she was undeniably a movie star.

And yeah, it does feel like in that first couple of years, she hasn't quite figured out

how she works as a leading lady yet.

Definitely hasn't.

And I think it takes her another five years.

Until Private Benjamin.

I think basically until Private Benjamin.

Like, Val Play was...

Val Play was a hit.

Foul Play.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that, you know, with Chevy.

I think that starts the transition.

Obviously, Shampoo, she's amazing in it, but that's about...

That movie's about this guy.

And he's like hot or something.

She made a movie called Lovers and Liars.

That's an Italian movie.

So, yeah.

And then I feel like Private Benjamin, and then she has her whole 80s is like a pretty reliable sort of comic.

She's sort of a movie star thing.

Yeah.

Right.

Whereas in the 70s, she's still like, I mean, it's what's fascinating about this is this is kind of an odd choice for her.

Like, it's not an obvious movie star.

She's well cast.

She's great in it.

Yeah.

Would we all agree that Goldie Han good in the Sugarland Express?

Yeah.

It's so funny, actually, just sort of like looking at her, you know, filmography.

It's so, she hasn't made like all that many movies.

She's a weird movie star because she is an icon.

I would say a four-decade icon.

60s, 70s, 80s, 90s.

She is at the top of the heap of the type of like star she is, right?

Like

sort of the point I'm trying to make is like she immediately becomes an icon the second she appears on screen and laughing.

Huge icon.

Here's this woman with blonde hair and huge eyes and she's got the flowers.

Huge mouth.

Right.

The flowers painted on her body.

Crazy mouth.

And she says, socket to me or whatever.

And people immediately are like, this means something.

The mailbox was Haldeman.

The mailbox was Haldeman.

But like, people looked at her like she was the fucking...

The mailbox was Haldeman all the time.

Pile of mashed potatoes in close encounters and were like, this means something.

This is culturally important.

Right.

And then she, within a year, like, goes to movies, wins an Oscar, and they're like, you are legitimate.

You're no longer just like pop iconography.

We are taking you seriously.

And so like throughout the 70s, she's just undeniably culturally humongous before figuring out what her thing is.

And then she has a run that's like big in the 80s.

She slows down in the 90s.

She's made three movies in the last 25 years.

She has so like, but even in the 90s, Goldie Hong, we're just starting off at Goldie Hong before we introduce the podcast, which is fine.

It's fine.

It's good.

Have we ever covered Goldie Hong?

This is a great question.

One time for the movie.

Swing shift.

Swing shift.

Right.

I was the one time we covered her.

Which is a very complicated film in her career.

Yes, it is.

But

like in the 90s, I would say the only

hits she made were

in order.

House Sitter,

which is both a huge hit and like kind of a well-remembered like cable movie.

Death Becomes Her, which is like a big hit and well-received.

Yeah.

And then, right, her 90s Apex is First Wives Club.

which people forget made tons of money.

But I feel like it's also like when you think of 90s Han, she looks like like that.

Yes.

Right?

Like, same with 90s Midler.

And honestly, 90s Keith.

Yeah.

Like, their looks are that.

But those are three big.

Oh, when I said she's only made three movies in the last 25 years, I forgot that she did fucking two Christmas Chronicles.

She is Mrs.

Claus in the Christmas Chronicles one and two.

Right.

Because I was thinking town and country long delayed in 01, banger sisters, 02, and then she doesn't do a movie until snap.

And when we cover Chris Columbus on this podcast, we will do the Christmas Chronicles 2, but not one, because he didn't direct the first one.

But you're saying she, those were her only three really big hits in the 90s.

In the 90s, she and Bird on a Wire

is kind of a flop.

Deceived is like forgotten.

Crisscross is basically completely forgotten.

Right.

Everybody, everyone says I love you.

It's an ensemble thing.

And Out of Towners, it's kind of

town and country banger sisters.

It's kind of like, you know what?

Yeah.

I mean, I think she decides she's done.

Yes.

But like, it's like, you know what?

The Goldie Han business is not a Hollywood business anymore, really.

But here's another thing.

Like the three big hits you said in the 90s, those are big Hollywood movies.

Yeah.

Where the other thing was like, she was someone where you could just sell it on.

It's Goldie Han plus, like the pairing of Goldie and someone would excite someone.

You know, Bird on a Wire is like Melon Goldie is like the whole selling piece.

Yeah, definitely.

She did two movies with Steve Martin.

You know, she like did like four movies with Warren Beatty.

Like it was a lot of like Goldie.

Goldie plus someone equals excitement.

God bless her having the name Goldie.

She really lucked out.

It's her birth name.

It's a cool name.

Goldie.

Is Han her real last name?

Yeah, Goldie.

Jean Han.

I mean, she nailed it.

She did nail it.

Her parents, of course, Laura and Edward, nailed it, I would say.

Half Jewish.

Is that right?

Goldie.

Han's half Jewish.

Somebody is half to.

Paul Newman's half-to put them together.

That's one fine looking thing.

Yeah, her mother was Jewish.

Her mother was Jewish.

Thank you, Griffin.

Of course.

Esther, the mailbox is Haldeman.

I got you with the mailboxes Haldeman, though.

It's not your fault.

Well, okay, I had to, I will say that

I do love the 30 Rock laugh and parody.

And the other one is like the fake Goldie's like,

you're pardoned.

Right.

Esther, it's not your fault.

And I'm not accusing you of mumbling or not pronouncing properly.

But when you said half Jewish, this is just the cultured, a poisoned culture we live in.

I heard it as hawk-to-ish.

And I was like, are you accusing Goldie Han of being hawk-to-ish?

I think you should cut that.

Should Goldie Han go on?

I just need to

be honest about...

Also, sorry, it's Twa.

What?

I'm sorry.

What?

What?

It's not Talk Tua.

It's Tak Twa.

Yeah, because she's.

Please, please finish the sentence.

Because it's like,

she's getting on the dick.

I understand what she was saying on the streets.

The entire built on on the fact that she said it a weird way, that she didn't.

Spin on that thing.

I think it's Twa.

As someone who saw that TikTok, like naturally, and had the same reaction that apparently millions of Americans did, where I was like, that girl's a firecracker.

I love her.

And so now we've crowned her queen of media.

She definitely said Tua.

She said Tua.

Okay, then I'm wrong.

I thought it was Twa.

No, Hak Tua.

Twa would be if you were playing it real, if you were doing a realistic performance.

The whole reason Hock Tua was funny is not because she says Hawk Tua spin on that thing.

That is funny.

It's that she then lets out this kind of genuine laugh because she knows she said something silly.

Yeah.

And you're like, ah, she's not so bad.

She should like throw out the first pitch in a Mets game.

Maybe she should have a podcast.

And then by 22, 25, I'm like, she's Secretary of the Interior?

Are we sure?

We're lucky.

She only messed it up as Secretary of Interior.

No, but I, look, for our younger listeners, and I say this as if the three of us fucking lived through Goldie Han's emergence.

We did.

But I do feel like Goldie Han appearing on Laugh and was similar to the Hawktua girl.

I don't get it from the non-medium

of a cannon.

Griffin, fucking.

I'm not comparing the work.

I'm comparing the cultural impact.

I think.

I'm just pro-Hawka.

People said, well, fire.

I mean, she's great.

Unless she's done something bad by the time this episode comes out, which is eminently possible.

She is endorsed like Victor Orban at this point.

Again, I have no idea what she does on that show.

I just, I'm like, you never know when Hawk to it.

Yeah, has anyone listened to the podcast?

I've seen clips from it on TikTok, but they tend to be 30 seconds long.

Sure.

I've heard that she brings on occasionally like hometown friends.

I think that's fine.

More than occasionally.

I think that sounds great.

Grandma's the co-host.

That sounds good.

Like her talking to other influencers, that sounds boring.

Her just kind of being like, this is my vibe.

I think that's what it is.

Right.

Yeah, great.

None of us know what the third most popular podcast in the world is.

Yeah.

But what I heard is that her friends were people who clearly had never, ever spoken into a microphone before in their entire lives.

Right.

And weren't the best at being able to have an engaging conversation.

Yeah, I got me.

Can all be fucking hot to a raised hands on Mike.

They spit on that thing.

They don't know what to do with it.

They never been on mic before.

They spit on that thing.

This is Blank Feck with Griffin and David.

I'm Griffin.

I'm David.

It's a podcast about filmographies and not about the Hawk to a girl.

This episode's out in two months.

It's not so dated, except she's kind of, she's been a thing for a long time.

I was going to say, this is what I like about talking about the Hawk to a girl in episodes we record far in advance.

We can't imagine how much bigger she'll be by the time this comes out.

It's not like she'll become passive.

Right.

She's the star of anyone but you two by this point.

Anyone but two.

Anyone.

Fuck.

Some Sony executive's arm hair just stood straight hearing that.

Tom Rossman just ejaculated.

Anyone but Tua.

It's like, yeah,

get that a green light at $82 million.

Look, this is a podcast about filmographies.

Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want.

Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby.

We're talking about the most successful filmmaker in history, period right i i do think it's still basically uncontested yes yeah of course is there any dispute of that no of course not he's certainly earned the most money yes well does james cameron have him beat money-wise well my guess is no though because spielberg just has so many you know more movies

spielberg's more uh uh more of a mogul too Well, then, and there's that too.

Cameron, I feel like makes most of his money from his good deals making the most successful movies in history.

Spielberg also has his finger and his fingers in many other pots.

He's getting that fucking Universal Studios ticket cut.

Sure.

Yeah.

I'm looking it up.

Isn't James Cameron getting Disney?

James, I will probably repeat this 8,000 times across this series.

When Universal decided to start a theme park, expand past just the backlot tour, the big coup was we get Spielberg to sign on as our like chief creative.

Oh, so he gets like I believe he gets 20%

as a director of ticket sales across all parks in perpetuity.

As a director, just director.

Yep.

Spielberg has Cameron beat by $2 billion.

Oh, that's a lot of money.

And again, look, he's got

many more movies.

Right.

But yeah, he's got him beat.

Yeah.

We're talking about the first half of Steven Spielberg's career in a series we're calling Podrassic Cast.

And today we are talking about his first

Podrastic Cast.

That sound better the more you say it.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

We should get Haley Walsh to say it.

She'd probably know how to make it sound good.

Podrastic Chast.

I mean, I'm laughing already.

I love it.

Today we're talking about Steven Spielberg's first intentional feature film, theatrical film.

Yes.

Yes.

He still calls it his first movie.

He calls this his first movie, and that makes sense because it's the first thing he made that was released.

In theaters,

where someone said, we are giving you money to make a movie.

Here you go.

It's called the Sugarland Express.

And our guest today, joining us, Blankchuck's own little firecracker.

Esther Zuckerman.

I wear that badge proudly.

Blank Chuck's little firecracker.

Esther, you write about Goldie Hong in your book.

Yeah,

you know, it's you have a new book coming out.

I have a new book coming out.

It will be out by the time this episode is,

it like is airs.

Airs is the right word.

Drops.

Drops.

Yes, it is about rom-coms.

I write, yes, I write about Cactus Flower a little bit.

You know, it's funny.

I write also about Goldie in the context of her daughter, Kate Hudson, who

you never heard of her.

Actually, you know, it's something really fun.

It's not really funny, whatever.

I was at brunch the other day at like a local restaurant, and there was a girl trying to explain to her boyfriend, like, Goldie Han.

She's Kate Hudson's mother.

And he was like, I don't know who those people are, and I don't care.

Either one.

I'm not sure.

He just seemed so like, stop talking to me.

Wild.

And I'm not sure what brought it up, though.

I think it might have been the fact that all of the Han Hudson family is doing a Skims holiday ad campaign, though not Kurt and not Wyatt.

Oh, you're kidding.

They didn't want to jump in on that one.

But doesn't Oliver have Oliver is in it.

Oliver is in it.

I have a favorite podcast in the world.

Anyway, Oliver Hudson.

What the fuck is that?

Kate's brother.

Never heard of this motherfucker.

He has a podcast called Like, I'm a Brother or something.

Shut the fuck up.

To deal with the U.S.

government for $5 trillion.

I swear to you.

The Agency of Global Commerce has

broadcast people's brains.

Yes, you have self-promo.

What's the title of the book?

Fallen in Love at the Movies.

Falling in Love at the Movies.

And

rom-coms from the screwball era to today.

And it's with TCM.

And

I talk about the female rom-com star and sort of talk about, you know, Kate's run of, you know, being a major rom-com star and how, like, and the descendant and Goldie as sort of the

sort of.

forebearer of that in especially with Cactus Flower and winning the Oscar.

There is an argument for, and I wonder if this is the argument you're making, that Kate was sort of the last person who got to pursue a conventional rom-com movie star career at a high level.

Yeah, I mean, that's not, I don't really

know.

Yeah, I don't really go chronologically.

Heiglo's truly the last person

of it.

But yes, I don't really go chronologically.

So, like, I sort of talk about, you know, when I talk about

the female stars of the rom-com, I sort of divide it into two major types, which is the Spitfire and the Relatable queen, in the sense that like...

Who is Kate Hudson?

She's Spitfire.

She's definitely not a relatable.

That's what I was about to say.

Maybe we're, we're maybe noticing what Kate Hudson's issue was is she's a pretty poor Spitfire.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I talk about Goldie.

I mean, it's interesting because, you know, it's funny looking at her, she doesn't have that many straight rom-coms, which is sort of interesting in the context of, you know, obviously overboard as a classic one.

A cactus flower is one.

But she did a lot of like capers.

She did a lot of capers.

Like Private Benjamin really isn't like stuff like that isn't a rom-com.

No, but also she, so many of her movies were sold on its Goldie Plus X, right?

Like it was like two big movie stars.

She does.

Two movies with Trevi Chase.

She does best friends with Burt Reynolds, right?

She does like two movies with Kurt.

Bird on a Wire is Melan Goldie, first names only.

She has two Steve Martin movies.

Like, that was kind of the formula, but most of those movies, even when there is a central romance,

I would not classify as rom-com.

They're capers, sort of right.

House sitter is not a rom-com.

Yeah.

So, yeah, so I do, you know, as a nice way to sort of

like

bunge our way into

promoing my book for this, uh, for this podcast.

Um, thank you guys.

I appreciate it.

I do talk about Goldie and I do talk about Cactus Flower in a chapter about the Manning Crisis rom-com.

It's sort of all about a chapter about all the rom-coms that are basically about, you know, it's such a female-coded genre, but so many of these rom-coms are about men having deep problems.

Yeah.

But also, admittedly, not having seen it, Cactus Flower feels like one of those like Pictures of the Revolution turning point movies.

Yeah.

Where you're like, Mathow is like an old guard movie star, and here's a movie about him trying to reckon with a flower child, right?

It is that is launching its own star.

I know it has other things going on, but like, isn't that part of the alchemy that Goldie was kind of the first off the conveyor belt of like, this is a new movie star who represents a new type of woman that has not really existed in the media up until this moment, which also sort of makes, you know, Sugarland Express so interesting in her career.

Yes.

Because

I don't know, it feels so, it doesn't, it feels so sort of outside of what she's known for doing.

Well, because I feel like the, even when she's in kind of like, I'm falling apart fliberty gibbet mode, right?

There's a sense of like Goldie having some sense of self, right?

There are things like shampoo where like, you know, she's a character in crisis because she can't fully hold the guy down

but there's still this this sense of like,

she's a spark plug.

She's a firecracker, right?

There's like a spirit within her you can't dampen.

And that's certainly part of the equation of Sugarland Express, but the other part of it is like, what the fuck is going on in this woman's head?

Right?

Like, so much of this movie is everyone just being, and I guess this is what those poster taglines are trying and failing to capture.

is like this whole movie hinges on what is she thinking?

Even just from the initial setup of like, why the fuck are you going to try to break out of prison when you're four months away from being released?

And Atheron's like, I just don't.

How do you deal with her?

And because it's Goldie, it makes sense.

And it wouldn't make sense with everybody, but that is Goldie's magic, I would say.

She makes movie kind of logic make sense because she's such a big personality.

And to the extent that later in her career, or even in this movie, a movie like House Sitter is basically like, what if you met a Goldie Han type?

Like, can be basically kind of the premise to your movie of like, uh-oh, she's crazy, like, and fun, but insane, but like a lot, but like, you know, bewitching.

You know, it's like, it's just like, yeah, you've Goldie Hans in your life.

Is this the only movie that like makes her dangerous?

I don't know.

Private Benjamin, she was in the army, the U.S.

Army.

She's very responsible.

She is?

Oh, nothing goes wrong?

She gets there.

She gets there.

She's a Jewish American princess in that movie.

I know.

That's a good movie.

Yeah.

Wildcats, is she dangerous in that one?

Running a football team.

She's got some dangerous plays.

Banger Sisters, did they make like explosives?

Yeah.

Is that why they're called that?

Never seen, I got to say, never seen the Banger Sisters.

That's a classic movie that came out when I was a teenager where I was like.

None of this, no part of this is for me, I think.

I remember getting the completely expected perfunctory best actress in a musical or comedy nomination for Goldie at the Golden Globes.

And when they cut her in the audience, you could see on her face.

She was like, maybe I'm retiring.

Maybe unless Amy Schumer makes a movie after 15 years.

Is she good in Snatched?

Yeah, I like Snatched.

I actually liked, I like Snatched.

Remember Snatched.

I was sort of well received.

I was like, I was like, I'm not sure if I can forgot about that movie.

Yeah.

I mean, it wasn't well received, but like, quickly got a little, there was a bit of a whispering of like, I know we're all over Amy Schumer, but Snatched ain't bad.

That was my take.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Snatched low-key good.

And felt like one of those things of like, oh, here's one of the few like major kind of eternal movie stars where her coming out of retirement is going to be a big deal.

And it wasn't.

No.

Yeah.

Where it's like, we got Goldie and audiences are like, who?

Even compared to like 10 years before that, when Jane Fonda does Monster in Law, it did feel like the press was like, oh, that was huge.

This is important.

Yeah.

She's been retired for 15 years, shackled to Ted Turner's bed.

And now she's free to be in this like, you know, five out of 10 movie.

Right, but made a ton of money.

Did.

Yeah.

People saw it.

People showed up.

Yeah.

I mean, Snatch made some money.

Snatch did not do very well.

How did Snatch do?

You know what I think a big problem with it was?

Oh, it made $45.

How's it terrified?

Domestic.

No?

Okay, that's not

terrible.

I thought it was even, I thought it was closer to 30.

I feel like it had a better title throughout development, and then they changed it to Snatched at the last minute.

And it was like,

this was a mistake.

Yeah, that's if you change the title, okay.

But so what was the original title?

It had the working.

No, it had a

mother-daughter.

It's better than

snatched.

Yeah, it's still bad, though.

Yeah.

It got its ass kicked by King Arthur Legend of the Sword.

Oh, no, it didn't actually actually beat King Arthur.

Legend of the Swords.

That's embarrassing for King Arthur.

David, yes.

This episode is brought to you, The Listener.

by Mubi, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe.

From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there is always something new to discover.

With Mubi, each and every film is hand-selected, so you can explore the best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere.

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of course.

David Mussolini Colin, son of the century.

It is, it is, look,

it's an exciting project, but it's really funny to be like, guys,

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Here's what's funny about it, just to peel back the curtain for a second.

We get like messages that are like, hey, you guys good with this ad?

Yeah, here's the copy for the ad.

And as shorthand, it was texted to us as, you guys good with the Mussolini ad?

And I was like, Mussolini sponsoring the podcast?

What do you mean?

To be clear, we decry Ilduce Mussolini, Benito Mussolini, the terrible dictator of Italy.

But we celebrate Joe Wright and his newest project.

The filmmaker Joe Wright

has created

an eight-episode series about Mussolini's rise to power.

And I will say, not to sound like a

little nerd over here, but it is actually very interesting to consider Mussolini's rise to power in these times.

You know, he was sort of the original fascist, and the way that he sees power in Italy is

unfortunately something we should probably have on our minds right now.

I don't not try to be a loser right now.

You seem like me right now.

This is the kind of thing I say.

It's a very interesting part of history, and I feel like because other World War II things became whatever, the history channel's favorite thing, you don't hear quite as much about Mussolini's family.

Yes, no, you're right, unfortunately, sadly, tragically, frighteningly.

He's not a hugely this is a hyper-relevant time.

And this is a theatrical, hyper-visual tour deforest starring Luca Marionelli.

Martin Eden himself.

Remember that?

Beloved member of the Old Guard.

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Sequel.

Checking notes here.

Great.

Critics are calling it a towering performance of puffed up vanity.

It features an era-bending score by Tom Rowlands of the Chemical Brothers.

That's cool.

Imagine techno beats scoring fascist rallies.

It just sounds kind of Joe Wright-y.

It does.

Joe Wright.

You know, he won't just do a typical costume drama.

He likes to, you know, think about things in a different way.

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surreal stagecraft, cutting-edge visuals.

Guardian calls it, quote, a brilliantly performed portrait of a pathetic monster.

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This is heavy ad copy, guys.

Usually it's kind of like, eh, shorts, you know,

credit raving words.

A gripping, timely series, The Guardian.

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Yeah.

No, it's Joe Wright,

one of the scarier scarier people I ever interviewed.

I've told you that story, right?

He was, he was, he knows he's kind of a cool guy.

We've batted him around.

He's certainly gotten interesting.

He's very interesting.

He's very interesting.

And he's made some great movies and he's made some big swings that didn't totally connect.

Totally.

That's really interesting.

He actually is a blank check filmmaker, unlike a lot of some people.

I get suggested.

You're like, sure,

it doesn't fit the model.

This one does.

This one does.

Look, to stream great films at home, you can try movie free for 30 days at movie.com slash blank check.

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You can watch Mussolini or you can you can watch non-Mussolani things.

Yeah, they got lots of movies.

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Bye.

David.

Okay, okay.

I'll be very quiet.

Oh, I'm used to it.

Producer Ben is sleeping.

Oh,

Hazy boy is

getting some ZZ.

Getting some Z.

What's he sleeping on?

He's sleeping on one of the new beds we got from Wayfair for the studio for our podcast naps.

But this is a big opportunity for us.

We get to do the first ad read for Wayfair on this podcast.

No, no, Griffin, you're clearly not listening to past recordings.

Ben did a Wayfair ad for us recently.

Do you listen to past recordings?

Yeah, sometimes.

it's psycho behavior it is look he did that when we were sleeping look apparently we need to talk about how when you hear the word game day

you might not think wayfair but you should because wayfair is the best kept secret for incredible and affordable game day finds makes perfect sense to me

Absolutely.

And just try to, David, just if you could please maintain a slightly quiet.

We don't have to go full whisper.

I just want to remind you that Haas is sleeping.

I mostly just think of Wayfair as a website where you can get basically anything.

Yeah, of course, but Wayfair is also the ideal place to get game day essentials, bigger selection, curated collections, options for every budget/slash price point.

You want to make like a sort of man cake?

Okay, fine.

Okay.

All right.

Sorry.

You know, Wayfair

stuff gets delivered really fast, hassle free.

The delivery is free.

If you for game day specifically, Griffin, you could think about things like recliners and TV stands.

Sure.

Or outdoor stuff like coolers and grills and patio heaters.

Like that's, you know, that's all the winter months.

David, you have like basically a football team worth of family at home.

You got a whole team to cheer up.

This is true.

You need cribs.

Your place must be lousy with cribs.

I do have cribs.

Fainting beds?

I have cribs.

Sconces?

Chaise lounges?

I'm low on sconces.

Maybe it's time to pick up a football.

This is the kind of thing that would make your home team cheer.

Look, I'm just going to say that Wayfair is your trusted destination for all things game day from coolers and grills to recliners and slow cookers shop save and score

today at wayfair.com that's w-a-y-f-a-i-r.com wayfair every style every home david there's only one shame to this ad raid don't wake hozy there's only one shame to this ad raid That I didn't find out about this in time before I already purchased coolers, grills, folding chairs, patio heaters, recliners, barware, barware, slow cookers, sports-themed decor, merch for my favorite teams, and more.

If all of these teams are

Cleveland Browns, of course.

Devontae Mac, no matter what.

Don't do that, no matter what.

Okay, that's the end of the Abory.

Look, I want to be on topic here.

Let me just say this: Sugarland Express.

It is wild for, you know, this is a movie where Goldie is minted as a star but has not quite figured out her thing yet spielberg is getting his first real shot at making a movie then both of them go on to have wild success over the next couple of decades they never work together again in any capacity i wondered about this yeah like why did they never work i i've sensed no ill will he speaks very highly of her you have to imagine they're constantly like overlapping parties right and it's just funny that they never did anything together ever again and it's almost as funny as when you remind people that Steven Spielberg's first movie was a William Atherton cohander.

Like, it just doesn't feel like, wait, Dicklas from Ghostbusters at one point was Steven Spielberg's leading man.

Atherton also never, never worked with Spielberg again.

You would think he'd pop up and like

the CI guy.

I will say respectfully, I feel like Atherton has a reputation for being very difficult.

Yeah, interesting.

I really feel like, who knows if JJ gets into this in the DOS.

Yeah, we'll see.

But I think there was a bit of a narrative that he kind of blew his leading man shot after this movie.

And then when he comes back in the 80s as like a

stiff ass, that was sort of

like rebrand.

He came back a little humbled.

Not to jump ahead, but did you guys look up the guy who plays Slide and what his deal is?

Yes.

Wait, what's the

right way?

Yeah.

The guy, because he's in Slaughterhouse Five.

Yes, but I know when he does that, like when he likes,

is it good?

Michael Sachs.

Does he host a podcast?

He worked at Morgan Stanley for 10 years.

Okay.

He's just like...

Oh, he just became a rich guy.

He just became a rich guy.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah.

Michael Sachs did nine movies in total.

Right.

Two of them TV movies.

Slaughterhouse Five, Sugarland Express, The Private Files of J.

Edgar Hoover, Hanover Street, Emityville Horror, Split Image.

His final film in 1984 is The House of God.

It's kind of crazy that he was the Star of Slaughter House 5, which is not, people don't remember that movie now, but it was a big movie, George Roy Hill movie, and he was the out of nowhere Billy Pilgrim.

And then, right, he does this.

He's pretty good in this.

He's got the right look.

And yeah, like by the 80s, he's done.

And I guess he retired in 1994, yeah.

Yeah, he's like doing movies with like Harrison Ford.

He's doing Emityville Horror.

Like he's in big shit.

And then I'll just read this paragraph.

After spending time working in technology positions on wall street in 2004 sacks joined the online bond trading company market access axe

as head of global applications development he was employed by morgan stanley from 1994 to 2004 as executive director global head of bond technology for the fixed income division griffin this is not interesting this is fascinating i mean reading it aloud i mean i mean it's interesting that he just pivoted to being a rich guy but uh has just held like all of these fucking positions for yeah, he's fancy 40 years now, and he's still alive, yeah.

You can looked him up, I just Ben Johnson

just looked him up on

Ben Johnson lived a lot longer than I thought.

Should I connect with Michael Sachs on LinkedIn?

Yes, you should.

The thing with Ben Johnson is you're like, oh, he lived like another 20 years after Sugarland Express.

So he must have died at the age of 100.

No, he died at 77.

He's only in his 50s in this movie.

He reads like so much older.

And of course, he won the Oscar a few years prior to this.

And it was this Oscar that was kind of like, ah, the old lion of the, you know, Western, like this old vet.

And it's like, he was like probably 48.

And they were like, ah, yo, we're sending you out to pasture Ben, you know,

Rick Dalton.

The reason it felt that way is a lot of these guys died at 52.

Yeah.

I mean, to be clear, I think he was, he probably was in his 50s.

Yes.

But still, like.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, even like, you know, Robert Shaw, who we'll cover next week, was dead within three years of Jaws.

A lot of these guys died very young and died very young, basically, of old age, where people just lived so far.

They just accelerated down the old

age road.

Right.

Ben Johnson lives until the 2000s is making movies until the end.

I was like, right, he's in Angels in the Outfield.

He lived until 96, 96.

I'm sorry.

Yes, no, 96.

Yes, he died of a heart attack.

visiting his still living mother

at a suburban Phoenix retirement community where they both lived.

So I guess he was like going to the building across the street or whatever.

And she lived another four years and died at the age of 101.

That's insane.

Mazza.

It is kind of insane.

And there's a sculpture of Ben Johnson in Pahusca, Oklahoma, that you can go see.

Pahuska.

That's where they filmed

Killers of Flowermen.

That's cool.

Well, then we should go see the statue and then the location of that film.

Pahaska Laugh Show?

Do they have a venue?

Do you think?

Like a

comedy lounge?

What's like a chain?

What are they called?

Exactly.

Bananas with a Z.

David Preck open the dossier.

Because there is more of a gap between Duel and this than I remembered.

Duel.

Have you seen Duel, Esther Zuckerman?

I have never seen Duel all the way through.

I've seen clips of Duel.

It rules.

Duel does rule.

Check it out.

Duel Rule.

to a dual rules we have to stop steven spielberg makes dual yeah it's it's kind of hot stuff and everyone's like that's okay industry not that's what i'm saying like but there's buzz so everyone's like okay what's steven gonna do

and steven says steven spielberg says he was offered a bunch of movies right out of dual but they were kind of bad right like Suddenly, it's like, yeah, yeah, get that guy, but I think he's probably being sent whatever warmed over projects are kind of sitting around right

so uh instead he does two more tv movies which i think we're planning on discussing on our patreon yes something evil and savage right

and uh you know he basically uh so something evil was for cbs universal let him out of his contract to do it because they had nothing for him to do and then savage which has martin landau

was a true like he says the only real time that universal was like you have to do this literally like you owe us.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Have not seen Savage.

Have you seen Savage?

No, we will.

We'll watch it.

And then we'll cite it to someone.

We'll talk about it on page.

Randall mugging it up in that one.

And then he's thinking of making a movie called McCluskey

based on, sort of based on something that Greedo once said to Han.

Oh, fuck you.

It's based on that in the same way that Sugarland Express is based on True Story.

It takes some liberties.

It changes some of the words.

Was that the clunky?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Yeah, I know.

It's sort of based on inspired spirits.

Okay, okay.

Um, because that is the real thing that Grido said a long time ago, it's still

the funniest shit in the world.

It's weird that he just says McClunky.

Yeah,

Connor Ratliff, when we do George Lucas' talk show, anytime he refers to the McClunky cut or he tries to like

sort of pathologize the thought behind the McClunky change at the last minute, it feels like the kind of thing Connor would make up.

And it's so weird that it's just really the last thing that George Lucas did before selling the company.

Right.

Like, one little

perfect real change.

And then I'm ready to let go of Star Wars forever.

And his final statement was McClunky.

Anyway, Spielberg wanted to make McClunsky.

McCluskey, a Burt Reynolds vehicle, which is later made by Joseph Sargent and is given the slightly better title of White Lightning, which is, you know, a good title.

Spielberg truly works, like, comes aboard that project, but decides not to do it because he's working on it for like two months, scouts some locations, is starting to casting, and he's basically like, This is like a journeyman movie that, like, is a Burt Reynolds vehicle.

Why am I doing this?

Yeah, and so he backs out and decides, like, I need to do something a little more personal,

which is why I'm sort of like, how'd you get to Sugarland Express?

But we'll get to that.

Yeah, yes.

Major pin in that because I got some thoughts.

He also briefly was flirting with California Split.

Interesting.

And cruising?

And I'm assuming that's not the Freakim moving, not the Freakim moving.

It's cruising with an apostrophe.

Imagine Steven Spielberg directing Cruising.

It's Steven Spielberg's cruising.

Like they go into the gay bar and the camera just doesn't go in.

It's just like, let's leave.

I was going to say, it's the most explicit handshaking movie you've ever seen.

Hello?

Nice to meet you.

Just leather daddies tipping their caps.

Good afternoon.

She was like, this is sick.

On bottling

Is Cruising with an Apostrophe the movie that ends up being the Curtis Hanson Tom Cruise Jackie O'Haley movie or is

a third entirely different movie?

That's losing.

Oh, I'm starting it.

I don't know what Cruising is, but

JJ has highlighted it.

Now, Spielberg had been thinking about the Sugarland Express since in 1969, he had read a news story about this true story.

He'd pitched it to Universal back then, you know, about this Texas couple that, you know, took high women hostage.

Universal Universal is like, eh, this seems like a bummer.

No.

But now he's got a little juice.

Okay.

So he's trying to revive it.

He takes it over to Jennings Lang,

who pairs him with these screenwriters, Hal Barwood and Matthew Robbins, who have a credit on the movie, right?

Along with Spielberg.

Yeah, and Robbins becomes a major collaborator.

I mean, he's in the

Spielberg Amblyn ecosystem.

He's working with Lucas a lot over the next couple decades.

He's a major recurring figure.

He wrote, even recently, he wrote the screen story for guillermo del toro's pinocchio yeah he wrote batteries not included right which yeah yeah anyway so uh

they uh have a title carte blanche oh interesting french for blank check

he knew

they wrote a script in like 13 days and a universal thinks about it but puts it in a turnaround but then they revive it And for whatever reason, you know, Hollywood, crazy business, I guess.

They respect Stephen enough to be like, okay, let's let's fucking do it.

Do you have any sources on that?

Can you cite?

Hollywood.

Hollywood's just a crazy old town.

Yeah.

It's hard for me to believe that.

Uh-huh.

Spielberg says he likes the kind of media circus part of it, right?

It's not just that he's interested in this couple.

He likes the sort of American condition of today, you know, sort of statement you can make about it.

Like

he relates it to Ace in the Hole, the great Billy Wilder movie, right?

About it's not just about the event, it's about the thing that unfolds around the event.

Which, you know, does start to become a major theme in american movies across this decade like dog day afternoon is sort of the apex of this a better film than the sugarland i agree but this the modern relationship to crime and news and right the first wave of i mean ace in the hole is actually more the first but yeah but of like television and television yeah all that stuff yes yeah um

Sugarland Express becomes the title.

I don't know.

Universal.

It is a good title, but it doesn't really tell you anything about what you're in for.

No, but it's kind of like the catchy.

It's the Peter Bogdanovich Paper Moon story where he's just like, that just sounds good.

It does sound good.

And he reaches out to Orson Walls and he's like, what do you think of Paper Moon?

He's like, the title's so good, you don't even need to make the picture.

Like, Trickerland Express doesn't tell you anything about the movie, but it is just kind of a fun set of words.

Universal is basically like, we will do this, but you need a star.

And so that's how Goldie Hong comes aboard.

He has two recent Academy Award winners in this movie.

Who's the other?

Ben Johnson.

Oh, Ben Johnson, you're right, of course.

Had just 1971, right?

Yeah.

Spielberg has acknowledged later on that casting Goldie Han was risky because you do kind of expect a Goldie Han picture and this isn't that, right?

The ending of this movie is sad.

Like, this is a downbeat, you know, experience.

It's not a Goldie Han picture in that way.

To our point, she has not quite figured out what a Goldie Han picture is.

So, like, you're playing with sort of like weird elements.

But I do think that the Goldie Han, like, idea is still the girl from last year.

Absolutely.

She's just going to be wearing a little mini skirt and doing a little dance.

This is what's interesting about it.

And

you can listen to our swing shift episode.

Come on, Liz.

It's the 90s.

That is maybe the greatest live delivery in that episode.

That's incredible.

It is incredible.

It's the perfect episode.

It is my favorite episode of 30 Rock, probably.

Never follow a hippie to second location.

Never follow a hippie to a second location.

It's just unbelievable.

To me, that's the the epitome of what I think 30 Rock is about, especially in the early seasons, which is about Liz, the allure of Jack Donaghy to Liz, right?

Of like, no, I don't want to be like you, but also this era of politics and thought kind of is like, eh, I have to stop worrying about being radical and just make money.

Like, and Jack Donaghy is the devil on her shoulder being like, yes, big office, be me.

It's the heart of the show, which is the heart of the show.

Tina Fey's relationship to Lauren Michaels.

100%.

Her like alternating confusion, revulsion, admiration.

Attraction.

Like, not romantic attraction, but like, you know, just like to that lifestyle.

And like the most good 30 Rock episodes end with her going to his office and him being like, well, Lemon.

And she's like, yeah, I don't.

And he's like,

you know, and you're like, this rocks.

It's the best.

My favorite running thing on 30 Rock is when they get angry by people suggesting there's maybe sexual chemistry between

never.

Right.

The show is like, fuck you.

That's also the episode where Jack Donaghy says shift a robe when he does the entire group therapy with Tracy Morgan playing like 16 characters.

Right.

Yes.

But that's not the

lemon is 5 p.m.

What am I?

A farmer.

No, that's in season one.

That's early.

That's that episode.

That is in.

Is that Black Tie?

No, that's in Tracy Does County.

Right.

That's really early.

Yeah.

That episode's good.

I re-watched it like two years ago.

Now I want to just watch it all like solid gold.

Here's what I was going to say.

10 years later, she does swingshift.

We covered slingshift many years ago on the podcast, right?

Swingshift is a movie where

this calamitous production birth post-production battle that's basically because Goldie won't let go of what a Goldie Han movie is in her head.

That she could not accept a movie being a piece of a Jonathan Demi movie and was like, my persona is this, Curtin, I have this chemistry, this and that, right?

It's interesting that Goldie Han represented a very clear thing at this point, but hadn't figured out how to successfully build a movie around it.

So she seems more open to just being an instrument for Spielberg.

She's a very good one, but an expensive one, Griffin, because she had a deal with Universal, so they could get her, but she costs 300 grand.

The movie's budget is about $2 million.

So

she's a big ticket.

She's going to do a fourth of the budget.

But she says, recently she said this.

I guess it was one fifth of the budget.

Whatever.

But she says it was the most beautiful time.

I love love Spielberg.

I was amazed that this young man I worked with so many years ago went on to make all these movies.

I love you, Stephen.

That's her take.

William Atherton, Spielberg, says, and I do like this take from him.

He says, very soft-spoken, but with wild eyes.

You could easily misunderstand him like looking through a pair of binoculars.

Interesting.

You know what I mean?

When it's sort of like, I wanted to cast someone who maybe looked crazy, but not in like an obvious way.

Atherton.

Yeah.

Atherton.

And then he says he cast Michael Sachs because he looked like Atherton and he wanted them to resemble each other.

Like he wanted them to be two sides of the coin, right?

Like kind of straight-laced and crazy.

It is funny, but it can be distracting sometimes if they kind of look alike.

It's just funny that Atherton's thing at this time is, is this guy insane?

And then it just within a decade becomes like this fucking suit is here to ruin your party.

The second he walks on screen, you're like, get him out of here.

Buzz kill.

Spielberg says Han is wonderful on take one and two, gets her second win on take seven and is marvelous again on take 12 or 13.

On the other hand, Atherton is this New York actor who's very serious and demanding, and he gets better with takes.

So, Goldie would be wearing thin as Bill was getting better.

I love to hear directors talk like that.

Because then you really are like, Yeah, they know, like, they think about this stuff, and they won't talk about it too much because it's a little impolite.

Also, look, this is Spielberg.

But now, it's like 50 years from now, Spielberg can talk about this.

This is this first proper movie.

He's directed less than 10 professional things at this point, right, in total.

And for him to already have a sense of like, you know, when people talk about, you know, an actor's director, director who's good with actors, what that really means is someone who is intuitive and empathetic and observant and understands how to deal with different people differently.

Right.

Because there is no one size fits all thing.

And like, you do have actors who have different processes, different like arcs of when they're going to have the most juice and shit like that.

And for Spielberg to already at this age, be able to clock that and be able to manage that and figure out how to like create a flow around that it's like the spielberg blocking right not to get ahead of conversation here but it's like you know you look at this movie and it already has the crazy spielberg wonners that are totally unshowy you don't notice until like two minutes in like wait there hasn't been a cut and it's always it feels like for the sake of um

uh how would I put it it's like story economy right like he's trying to simplify things and I'm sure also simplifying his shoot day by figuring out how to get thing in one extended shot.

And the blocking is so precise, but you compare it to someone like Hitchcock, who would do similar things, but was so contemptuous of his actors and talked about them like paper dolls and puppets, right?

And he would like hire a movie star and just be like, do your fucking movie star thing and then hire a woman and yell at her, you know?

And like Spielberg is someone who is like collaborative with actors.

You really feel like he's trying to meet them where they are and like synthesize different sort of acting styles, performance styles, tones, and whatever.

But in an era where a lot of other filmmakers are going like, I let the actors do whatever they want.

They're free.

There's no blocking.

The camera's loose.

We're shooting it almost verite style.

Like that's the style that's on the rise because this kind of traditional blocking framing sort of like intentionality of shot structure is starting to seem a little rigid and classical and passe.

And he's like this one guy who's able to marry the two things.

Like the modern style of performance and like treating actors as collaborators, but also have these sort of very intentional, man, the actors keep on landing in just the right spot at just the right time.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's just wild to me.

They shot it for 60 days on location in Texas.

Shot in continuity to keep costs down.

Makes sense because of all the cars you need at the end of the movie.

Spielberg is basically never working, has never worked with a crew this big, right?

So Saul, sorry, Zanik, the producer, is like, well, let's ease him in, give him a sense of control, and then gets to set on the first day and says he was about to get ready for his first shot.

And it was the most elaborate fucking thing I'd ever seen in my life.

All in one shots, camera going and stopping, people going in and out.

And he had such confidence in the way he was handling it.

And I was kind of like, oh, I don't think I need to like, you know, warm this kid up.

Like, he'll be fine.

Also, this movie, he's already working with Vilma Sigmund, john williams and verna fields yes and vilmos jygmund had just done mccabe and fucking long goodbye right like he he

it's not like he's some amateur they picked up off the heat he's already like really hot stuff right this this spielberg altman overlap i i keep finding fascinating right because

close they were at this point in time for very different filmmakers yeah And Spielberg had loved McCabe, which is, he says, is his favorite film that Zygmunt ever shot, and images, and he loved Deliverance, and he loved The Long Goodbye.

And he said, I'd heard about this crazy Hungarian who lights with six-foot candles and would try anything.

So I sent him the script, and he loved it.

And I said, I wanted to shoot this whole picture in the rain with windshield wipers going.

And he was like, let's do it, bro.

They only shoot, they only work again on Close Encounters.

Also, a good-looking movie, though.

I think a pretty terrific-looking film.

I think two of the three best-looking things he ever shot.

Yeah.

Along with the pilot for the Mindy project.

That's his final final credit.

He's so, she's so funny.

I can't do it, I don't know what he sounds like.

How can she balance her work with her?

I think three of the guys here need to sort of be cycled out for other guys.

Remember how Mindy Project would be like, that guy spired, uh, this guy's in, like, over and over again.

Two new guys, maybe too much,

maybe too much, Ike Baron hole.

Lots of like, oh, you want less?

Okay, okay, we can have less.

We can have less.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just believe that was straight up his last thing he ever shot.

Wow, yeah.

Spielberg says he's an interesting man.

You employ his great camera eye, but for Gratis, you get his thoughts as well.

He's opinionated and sometimes he'll conflict with your own ideas, but he's enough of a professional to do immediately any way you wish.

But Spielberg likes that.

Like for how much this guy has like a vision, he's not someone coming in being like, it's all in my head and all of you need to do what I'm telling you to do.

They get along really well.

It's almost weird that they didn't make more movies together because it does, they do talk about each other both so positively.

And Sigmund's like, he's the most talented filmmaker I ever worked with.

And this movie looks incredible, and it has like a kind of surprising look, like there is a kind of muted quality to it.

It always feels like it's like sunset or like you know, early morning, like you know, the way the lights daylight scenes are still something's a little like shadowy and sort of sad about them.

Um, it's using this new Panaflex camera, I think this was the first feature

ever, yes.

Um, and so it can do these big pans, I think, like 360-degree pans, they can like move around the car really easily.

And yeah, I mean, another person he collaborates with for the first time is John Williams.

I've worked with someone else on the score, right?

The Toots?

Yes.

Toots was the main harmonica player.

What's this thing?

Let me pull it up.

Who isn't Toots?

I just iclocked Toots.

Fuck Tootsa?

No, you're John.

Okay, well, 10 combat points.

Been like that, or is mad at me.

One or the other.

I'm mad at you.

I looked up Toots Sugarland and I got Toots Thielmans, a Belgian jazz musician who is known for playing the chromatic harmonica.

Also known for his whistling skills.

I don't think,

I don't think, I don't know if you'll listen, but

he does the harmonic on Sesame Street.

Oh, wow, what a fucking legend.

Holy shit.

It's Tootson.

I do think Jordan Hoffman probably is deeply aware of who Toots is.

Well, I'm not going to get Jordan Hoffman fucking started on that.

I get 18 text messages about Toots before breakfast.

Jordan Hoffman has a whole shelf of Toots 75s.

Exactly.

Toots died in 2016 at the age of 94.

He tooted his last toot.

So Spielberg had really liked, I think we mentioned this on last week's episode, the Mark Rydale film, The Revivers,

which had a John Williams score.

And he was always like, I want the guy who did the score to do my movie.

75 instead of 78.

It's gone.

I know.

Ben was just really shooting some dirty glances at me.

Yeah, it was also, but it's fine.

William Goldenberg, who scored duel,

thinks he might have been able to sneak in there and beat John Williams to the punch if he'd read the script faster.

This may just be William Goldenberg sitting there full of regret, being like, why didn't I turn out to be fucking Stevens Bilberg's go-to composer or whatever?

But he's like, it's all to do with my procrastination.

I was the first person he gave the script and I didn't reply.

And he probably thought I didn't like it.

I don't know, man.

The, um, I'm going to be citing the John Williams Disney Plus doc a lot in these early episodes because we're putting them close together and I just watched it.

But Spielberg says that he saw the Reavers, which is the.

That's what I said.

Oh, you, I said revivers.

It's the Reavers.

There you go.

The Mark Rydell movie.

Right.

And he said to himself, if I ever get to make a movie, I'm hanging out with this guy.

Right.

It was like locked in in his mind.

And then his career got bigger.

By the time he goes to him, obviously he'd won the Fiddler Oscar.

He wasn't John Williams legend status but he was like this guy might turn me down right

um but seemed very locked in on the idea that this was the guy he wanted to work with and i think had a notion the thing he said was that at that point in time the sort of big classical orchestral score was going out of fashion and spielberg wanted it he wanted an aaron copeland 80 piece orchestra score that when he hears the reverse score and some of those other 60s williams scores that he's like this is the last guy keeping up this old school tradition and i want to support him.

And this is what I want my movies to sound like.

And John Williams is like, no, no.

Like, that's not right.

We're not doing that for this.

We're going to do a small string ensemble and I'm getting toots.

Yeah.

I'm not joking.

He's like, and harmonica.

The score is incredible.

It's great score.

It basically was not really in circulation.

It just got put out on CD in the year 2024.

for the 50th anniversary but outside of like times he's performed the main theme as part of like concerts it's never been like and that's when people like go get a hot dog right if you're at the fucking Boston Pops or whatever.

I think it's a quiet.

No, I think it's a lovely score.

I'm just saying if you're there to see John Williams do all his shit.

He's like, now the Sugarland Express.

And you're like, I'm going to make an express stop at the bathroom.

It's a

Browntown Express.

I'm sorry.

You set me up.

This music's making me need to poop.

He's playing the brown note.

Tuts knows the brown note.

I mean, going to the bathroom is a major plot point in this movie.

It's true.

Well, it's something you always think about with car movies where you're like, when's anyone peeing?

And they make it very explicit that it's like, she's going to need to go, but then she doesn't go.

This is one of the only movies with like basically a port-a-potty heist.

Yeah, we got to go.

I just think this score sounds like nothing else in the rest of John Williams' entire career, right?

It's a total one of one.

It is fascinating that this is what starts their relationship.

And that what starts their relationship is Spielberg being like, I want you to do the John Williams thing.

And he immediately pushes back and is like, hear me out, right?

And Spielberg talks a lot about that.

He would go to John Williams with ideas in the early years.

And then John Williams would be like, what if I veer here?

You think Joss is going to sound like this?

I'm going to play two notes, right?

You want sweeping orchestra.

I'm going to bring in toots, whatever it is.

And Spielberg is like, at this point, he has this line that's very touching in the doc where he's like, anytime I'm making a movie.

The thing that keeps me going is like, oh man, at some point at the other end of this.

John's going to be like showing me the first thing.

I get to hear John's first ideas and I have no idea what they're going to be and I've never been disappointed by them.

And there's some amount of conversation, but I love seeing his first instinct without me giving him any guidance and me not giving him temper or anything like that.

And then in that same documentary, they cut to Lucas and he goes, you know, a lot of people, you work with them and they go, well, I have this idea.

And you go, no, that's not what I want.

And they push back and you get into a fight.

And John's never fought me on anything.

He's a real prince.

And you're like, God, what an interesting comparison point for these two guys where Lucas is like, and first of all, I'm like, what other fucking composers were you working with?

You've worked with so few other composers in your life, but he's like, these uppity guys who are giving you ideas, right?

And Spielberg's like, I like that John Williams like zags and that our relationship was formed on him zagging right off the bat.

I also just truly wonder how much, again, like George Lucas is informing the music of Star Wars, which is so clearly like John John Williams's like ongoing opus, right?

That like every time there's a sequel, he's like, I actually have something new.

Like, you know, every time.

Yeah.

There's a part where he's like, you know, some of the stuff John gave me, it wasn't right.

And I had to explain to him how the mood was wrong.

And they play the Luke Two Sun set

moments with his original track.

And Toots is going crazy.

But they play it and you're like, this doesn't work.

And then they play the final version and it's like a transcendent moment that like immediately solidifies that movie and like cultural history.

And I'm like, I cannot imagine what the note George Lucas gave in between it.

Like, obviously, they got to the right place, but knowing George Lucas.

He just like mumbled something.

Was he just like, oh, no, it's wrong.

Louder.

French horn.

Don't you dare disagree with me.

Simulba.

Is Simulba in this scene?

He's over there.

You can't see him.

What if George Lucas buys Star Wars back and then just puts Sebalba in like one scene of the original Star Wars and then sells it again?

It's the biggest mistake Kathy Kennedy's made.

Not like doing a Sebalba.

Not going all in on Sebalbo.

I think it is a mistake.

I think it is a mistake how they did a bunch of Star Wars shows, but they never like had the guts to do like a pod racing show.

Yeah.

Where it's just like, that's so built for a show.

Like the world of pod racing.

Also just synergy.

Walt Disney Company, right?

Their whole portfolio.

Just start animating full pod races and airing them on ESPN.

Don't make a show that's like a narrative.

Just let me watch.

Invent pod racing as a real sport.

Right.

Script it, rig it, animate it.

Right.

Like, you know, you're going to have to rollerball it.

It's going to have to be in some.

Right.

Right.

Some country where, you know, you can do that.

Like, you know, some regulations or maybe a little light.

You need to record some new color commentary.

That's got to hurt.

I don't care what country universe you're from.

Dad's losing it.

Okay, back to the Sugarland Express.

Let's begin the plot.

David, this episode of Blank Check with Griffin, David, a podcast about filmographies is brought to you by Booking.com.

Booking.y.

I mean, that's what I was about to say.

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Yeah.

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Has the ideal stay for anyone, even those who might seem impossible to please.

God, I'm trying to think of anyone in my life, perhaps even in this room.

Ben, who's like, what's an example of someone I know who maybe has a very particular set of demands?

Bringing me in and there's only one other person in the room.

Who's one other person in the room right now?

This is so rude.

I sleep easy.

I'm definitely not someone who insists on 800 thread count sheets.

No,

that's an example of a fussy person.

But people have different demands.

And you know what?

If you're traveling, that's your time to start making demands.

You know, you've got

a partner who's sleep light, rise early, or maybe, you know, like you just want someone who wants a pool or wants a view or I don't know.

Any kind of demand.

You're traveling and I need a room with some good soundproofing because I'm going to be doing some remote pod record.

Sure.

Maybe you're in Europe and you want to make sure that's very demanding to be in Europe.

You got air conditioning.

Well, think of one person in particular, although it's really both of you.

Yes.

You got to have air conditioning.

I need air conditioning if I'm in the North Pole.

Look, if I can find my perfect stay on Booking.com, anyone can.

Booking.com is definitely the easiest way to find exactly what you're looking for.

Like for me, a non-negotiable is I need a gorgeous bathroom for selfies.

You do.

You love selfies.

As long as I got a good bathroom mirror for selfies, I'm happy with everything else.

Look, they're, again, they're specifying like, oh, maybe you want a sauna or a a hot top.

And I'm like, sounds good to me.

Yeah, please.

Can I check that book?

You want one of those in the recording, Stupid?

That'd be great.

You want to start?

You want to be.

I'll be in the sauna when we record.

I was going to say, you want to be the Dalton Trumbull podcast.

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It would look good if I had a sauna and a cold plunge and while recording, I'm on mic, but you just

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Ben.

What's up, Griff?

This is an ad break.

Yeah.

And I'm just, this isn't a humble brag.

It's just a fact of the matter.

Despite you being on mic, oftentimes when sponsors buy ad space on this podcast, the big thing they want is personal host endorsement right they love that they get a little bonus ben on the ad read but technically that's not what they're looking for but something very different is happening right now that's true we had a sponsor come in and say we are looking for the coveted ben hosley endorsement what this is laser targeted the product we have copy that asks Is the product a porch movie?

It certainly is.

And what is today's episode sponsored The Toxic Avenger.

The new Toxic Avenger movie is coming to theaters August 29th.

Macon Blair's remake of

reimagining, whatever.

A reboot of The Toxic Avenger.

Now, David and I have not gotten to see it yet, but they sent you a screener link.

Yeah, I'm going to see it.

We're

excited to see it.

But Ben, you texted us last night.

This fucking rules.

It fucks.

It honks.

Yeah.

It's so great.

Let me read you the cast list here in billing billing order, as they asked, which I really appreciate.

Peter Dinklage, Jacob Tremblay, Tremblay, Taylor Play Page, with Elijah Wood, and Kevin Bacon.

Tremblay is Toxie's son.

His stepson.

His stepson.

Okay.

Wade Goose.

Yes.

Great name.

Give us the takes.

We haven't heard of them yet.

Okay.

You got...

Fucking Dinkledge is fantastic.

He's talking.

He plays it with so much heart.

It's such a lovely performance.

Bacon is in the pocket too, man.

He's the bad guy.

He's the bad guy.

There's a lot of him shirtless.

Okay.

Looking like David.

David sizzling.

Yep.

And then Elijah Wood plays like a dang-ass freak.

He certainly does.

He's having a lot of fun.

Tell us some things you liked about the movie.

Okay, well, I'm a Jersey guy.

I just got to say, the original movie was shot in the town where I went to high school.

Yes, yes, that's right.

The original film.

Yep.

I grew up watching toxic and trauma movies on porches.

Yes.

With my sleazy and sticky friends.

It informed so much of my sensibility.

Your friends like Junkyard Dog and Headbanger.

Yeah, exactly.

Making Toxic Crusader drips.

And so when I heard that they were doing this new installment, I was really emotionally invested.

It was in limbo for a while before our friends at Ciniverse rescued it and are now releasing it uncut.

But I feel like there have been years of you being very excited at the prospect, but also a little weary.

They're playing with fire here.

Yeah, it's just something that means a lot to me.

And they knocked it out of the fucking park.

Okay.

It somehow really captured that sensibility, that sense of humor, even just that like lo-fi, scrappy kind of nature that's inherent in all of the trauma movies and the original Toxie movies.

And they have like updated it in this way that it was just, I was so pleased with it.

It's gooey.

It's gooey.

It's sufficiently gooey.

Tons of blood, tons of goo.

Great action.

It's really fucking funny.

It just, it hits all of the sensibilities that you would want in an updated version.

Cineverse last year released Terrifier 3 unrated.

Yeah.

Big risk for them there.

I feel like it's a very, very intense movie.

And a huge hit.

More interesting, yeah, theatrical box office phenomenons the last five years.

Want to make that happen again here?

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Yup.

And Ben, it just says here in the copy, wants to call out that Elijah Wood plays a weird little guy who says Summon the Nuts.

Can you tell us anything about that moment without spoiling it?

Summon the Nuts

is in reference to a

psychotic new metal band.

Hell yeah.

Who are also mercenaries.

Cool.

And drive a van

with a skeleton giving two fingies up on the grill.

And that's all I'll say.

Okay.

And they are the most dang-ass freaks of dang-ass freaks.

I'm excited to see it.

And your endorsement, I think, carries more weight than anyone else's in the world on this list.

Seriously, get your tickets now.

Go to toxicadvengure.com/slash blank check.

Do it, do it.

Struggleland Express is,

it's not a short film, but I do feel like it's a pretty

simple, you know, economical, kind of straightforward moving movie about a couple.

Lugene, played by Golden Eat Horn, and Clovis, played by William Atherton.

Kind of crazy names.

And Clovis is in jail, and they have a son, and the son has been given to foster parents.

And even though Clovis is about to be released from prison, just a few months, four months.

He's on pre-release.

Right.

They're in the sort of like lower security

back.

Right.

She gets him out, breaks him out of jail, and they are going to go retrieve their kid, I guess, which is stupid.

But this whole movie hinges on the plan being inexplicable.

Right.

Right.

They never really have a plan.

They don't have a plan.

Beyond, we're just going to go get him.

And it's like, okay, and then what?

It's like, nobody nobody seems to have an answer.

By the end, she's like, oh, like, we're gonna go to Mexico.

We're gonna do like at the very end, she's like, we're gonna do this right, we're gonna do parenting right.

And it's like, wasn't this your whole

plot?

Like, wasn't this your whole idea?

No, the major difference from the real story is that in the real story, he was not breaking out.

No, they had already been released.

He had been released.

She had been released.

And then they proceed to hold this cop car hostage.

Right.

And have them escort him across.

They did want to try and get their son.

And it had the same basic ending: he died.

I think he was shot and killed instantly.

And yeah, she went to jail.

Yeah.

It is very fascinating to think about

this and Badlands coming out in successive years.

Badlands is 1973.

Yes, it is.

Yes.

They feel

an incredible film.

A similarly striking debut film from

a better film, I'll say it.

I love Badlands.

I do as well.

But they do feel like twinned movies in a weird way.

Badlands is obviously like a period piece, but they both have this sort of like, what is up with the youth vibe, this sense of rebellion, where Badlands also hinges on like, why are they killing people?

Right.

And it's like, it's never really clear.

They never like.

become malicious.

You know, there is one death that sort of makes sense in terms of them trying to secure their freedom.

And then you're like, why are they making this situation worse for themselves?

But it is this sort of just like young in love, feeling some sort of like conflict with the culture around you and the old institutions and being like, we want to just do shit our way.

Edward's actually is 74.

It was actually released pretty much at the exact same time.

It's a 73 movie on like, because it was at the New York Film Festival, but it was actually pretty much released like the same week as this movie.

So you could basically see him around the same time.

But I will say one thing about, about, you know, the parenthood aspect of Sugarland Express is really interesting and also like interesting in the context of like the whole Spielberg deal

with parents in the sense that like, obviously they are not primed to be good parents, but the sense of like

blood people wanting to

wanting to care for this child feels, you know, feels like sort of justifies their wrongheadedness in a way.

Like they have this love for this kid, which obviously we never see in practice, but there's a sense that like, yeah, she'd do anything for her kid, even though we don't, like, she obviously messed up in the past.

I mean, my read on why they make the change that he is being, that he is escaping, right?

That he is on the run before he's finished serving his time.

not just obviously it adds some greater movie stakes but also it's like from that decision you're immediately like well i understand why they lost custody of the child right

you know what i'm saying like beyond just the fact that obviously both of them went to jail there is just the feeling of like watching this thought process or lack of thought play out of like right one bathroom conversation turning into like you're going to put on sunglasses we're going to get someone to drive us we're going to go pick up our kid you're like this is not gonna work this is so poorly thought through you can't even really explain this why this sudden immediacy and like yes if you wait four months and then you calmly go to the foster home or you go to whatever government office and you plead your case you're gonna have a better chance of getting that kid back than like holding someone hostage getting them to drive you to the door and then like negotiating with ben johnson and being like and we want our kid back but it also adds to this you know even though there are no stakes to i mean there are sorry no stakes is the wrong word even though like there's no reason that they have to be acting so quickly and like her and erratically her desperation to get her child also i think like endears you to her a little bit because it's like you know, this sense of, well, I fucked up, but all I want to do is be with my kid, even though she's going about it in like the worst possible way.

Well, and Badlands has the same thing where in both cases, the couples feel like they're kind of just overgrown children.

Yeah.

Like they just don't know how to be grown-ups.

In Badlands, Sheen is just sort of this agent of chaos, right?

Like he's just like doing, and Sissy SpaceX kind of along for the ride.

But he's an agent of chaos in like a very disinfected way.

He's like a boy lighting shit on fire.

Right.

And then in this...

Han is the driver of everything.

And Atherton is kind of like, yeah, I don't know.

You know, like, I'm, I'm like, he's the one along for the ride.

Well, and she's the one thing she is fully empowered of is knowing how to use her charms to get people to do what she wants, but it's not in some obvious, like, seductress, feminine, wiles way.

It's more just like, well, she's Goldie Han.

She has movie star energy.

She's cute.

She's cute.

She's compelling.

People just are kind of taken by whatever she's saying.

Yeah.

So they

initially just hitch a ride.

They just hitchhike.

But then they get stopped by parents.

But then they get stopped by Maxwell side, the patrolman, by Michael Sachs of JP Morgan fame.

A man who I'm sure has done great things behind the scenes.

And so they hold him hostage, but it is, and have him drive them.

But it is the most chill hostage situation.

Yeah, it's nice.

They sort of become friends.

Right.

This is not a thing where they're basically just like training a gun at him on all times.

At a certain point, they're basically just all hanging out together.

He doesn't, I don't think he really views them as dangerous, but he also is just immediately kind of like, what are you doing?

Well, there's also the really good sort of establishing like moment with him with the sort of drunk guy in his car

before he pulls them over, where you're sort of like, this guy's sort of like whatever with the people in his car.

Like he's sort of, he's sort of tolerant of them and their weirdness in a nice way, which I think sort of sets up the fact that he's going to be like,

yeah, okay, guys, like, let's just deal with this and move along.

So Sims and I i were uh kind of uh teeing this up at the end of our dual episode that this movie much like the score is in john williams filmography a total like one of one outlier there's no other spielberg movie like this and we were like what tone is even close to this in one of his movies and i do think like tonally catch me if you can has a similar vibe melancholy too like the same kind of like light drama vibe and almost a similar kind of look, like color palette and shit.

Catch me if you can't more self-conscious, obviously, because it's doing a period thing.

And is him kind of doing a bit of an epic, like a weird kind of epic on its own odd way?

It's the same kind of vibe of like, you're like, I'm having fun, but I have a feeling this won't end well.

Now, Catch V Can sort of has a happy-ish ending.

Yes.

But it's not like, you know, he gets away with it ending.

It's kind of a.

But the thing he truly never comes close to doing again in his filmography filmography is this being a hangout movie that like as we said once like 30 minutes in they're in like Sax's car.

It's a slow

chase movie.

It's not like a real propulsive chase movie.

It's everyone's kind of ambling along

this is entertainment

This is what I'm kind of locking into right ambling in this Do not feel insincere to me.

Rickfin is of course referring to uh the short film that he made in the 60s the Spilberg made in the 60s about a couple hippies hitchhikers.

A-M-B-L-I and apostrophe, which then he later removes the apostrophe and makes it a production company as if, like, oh, yeah, I guess it's a real world that means something.

It's like, no, it's just ambling without the G, right?

I don't think either one's insincere, but these are the kind of like personal films that directors of his generation were making at this point in time, speaking to their the youth, right?

And the vibes and these sort of like character pieces and actor-driven pieces and hangout pieces and all this sort of shit.

Kind of innately not who Spielberg is.

Not what he becomes for sure.

And he seems so, you know, what we know about his youth, like so disconnected from all of that in any way, shape.

He was like a very serious, moody kid who was like very focused on his work.

But he lived out in the desert in Arizona.

I feel like he does have some sense of that.

He moved a lot too.

And he lived in wildly different states.

So he has this kind of sense of America.

And like, I do say the shadow of of Seth Rogan cucking his dad looms over this sugarland.

Absolutely.

Right.

You hear the laugh.

No, I mean, like, echoing.

Oh, oh, oh.

Close Encounters is the movie, his third film, where you're like, oh, okay, this has been torn out of his soul for us, right?

Like, that is, this is everything that's going on in this boy's brain.

This and Jaws is a little more, both of them, they're both good movies.

Hot take.

Sugarland and Jaws.

But they're both, and, and dual, but they are both like this.

This is a supreme stylist who has grown up on a fire hose of like television and movies, like who just has such a sense of how to deliver entertainment.

So, dual is just like tight as a drum filmmaking exercise, right?

And then this is like character loose, hangout, like charm.

The map

is still like quietly flashy.

Yeah, and I also think, I don't know, but I do think it gets at something that like has preoccupied him for like his whole career, which is like the sense of how flawed people sort of sacrifice for their children.

Yes, I mean, let's get back to that because there's a lot more to unpack in that, right?

But I think like Jaws is fascinating because it's basically combining everything he figured out on Duel and Sugarland into one movie, which then becomes the alchemy of, oh, can he make like thrill ride entertainment that also has this level of characterization, specificity, performance, charm, wit, empathy, what have you, right?

But Joss does feel

in a way more personal than this movie does.

In a certain way, it feels more reflective of his psyche, whereas this movie feels like what you said, a story he remembers hearing on the news and being kind of compelled by, which is also how Malik talks about the Badlands.

The Badlands.

Badlands coming about was him being like, that's so weird that these two kids just killed a bunch of people.

What were they thinking?

Right.

That he's sort of trying to like psychoanalyze them.

But it's also a movie that's kind of about like i don't know right yeah like is the answer but in the soup of his generation the movie brats there's the story that gets repeated a lot where uh you know cassavettes was a big mentor to scorsese and scorsese invites him to a screening of boxcar bertha and he's like what do you think and cassavetes is like what the are you doing and cassavetes is basically like you're wasting your life and he's like you thought it's that bad he's like it's not bad it's just whatever like this isn't what you you became a filmmaker to make This is you trying to like make strategic career moves, pay your dues, whatever it is, like make the movie you'd be willing to die for.

And that conversation motivates him to make Mean Streets to basically sit down and be like, what's the movie only I can make?

And Cassavidi saw that and he was like, F, I hate this.

Total F, right?

But there was this feeling, a lot of these guys, it's like, you're paying your dues in the Corman fields, right?

De Palma is like basically coming out of experimental theater.

Greetings, high mom, rule, but are like fairly inaccessible movies.

And then he figures out like thrillers, right?

Lucas is making a THX and people are like, make something about people, right?

And he's like, I'll try.

But like,

I know American Graffiti, but that's my point.

Like, American Graffiti is the movie that comes out of like Coppola shaking Lucas the way that Cassavetti shaked Scorsese, right?

Shook Scorsese.

Like, make the thing that only you can make.

Like, what's your story?

And Spielberg, like, doesn't know how to tell his story directly.

He starts making these entertainments that are unbelievably personal and emotional because he knows how to tell it through refraction.

But this feels like a distant movie that has all of his themes in it made very warmly.

Yeah.

I mean, the refraction thing, like, I'm sure it's like impossible not to talk about like the Fablemans now, like talking about him.

But like, yeah, the only way he can look at his life is through is to watch the only way he can watch his parents divorce is to take out a camera.

And I do think that, yeah, that he finds, even though this film has the sort of yes, impetus of like,

oh, I heard this on the radio and I think it's interesting.

I think he finds this really sort of perfect, which this really personal story, which is ultimately what makes it so tragic,

you know, by the end, is that you do start to

feel for

how much they care despite, and especially how much lugene cares just despite her wrongheadedness well he also like

not not to psychoanalyze him too much right but like this feeling of kind of what you were saying of like his relationship to his parents for so long and he talks about i think in at this point in his life he was sort of like i could not imagine being a parent right and that's reflected in shit like the close encounters or he watches that today and he's just like

i would never do that today as a filmmaker, because if you have a child, you could never imagine doing that in a certain way.

Right.

And I think a lot of that is like the kind of thing a lot of people go through in their 20s where they start to take the toll of the way in which their parents fucked them up.

And there's like an anger that then goes to like,

the worst part of this is they actually were trying their best.

I can't really villainize them.

Yeah.

Which is sort of the stance this movie has of like, it is so commendable they are willing to put everything on the line for the sake of their child.

and yet everything they're doing is wrong and is actually just gonna fuck up their ability to have a relationship with their child yeah it really fucks up afterton's ability i'd say majorly he gets shot with a gun he's in a pretty bad position

as a father by the end of this movie it also just there is this sort of trick too of you know, that first shot of the child, you know, in the foreground and he's with the dog and he's just like crying.

And also with Zanik's son

is the kid

but like is like you know there's this misery to the kid and obviously he's the kid is probably fine with these stuffy duffy parents but you know you they're the fun and the life that this couple Lou Jean and Clovis has is so inherently attractive the first moment you see the kid I believe is like minute 47, right?

And you basically have these two mirrored shots.

It comes right after the port-a-potty standoff.

And then you have this shot

of

basically from inside the port-a-potty of Goldie opening the door, right?

Yeah.

And then it cuts to, right, Goldie opens the door from inside the port-a-potty.

She closes the door.

And then it cuts in the blackness to the kid opening the door.

And outside.

Bernafields worked on this movie, obviously.

Like the legend in the outside the press coming to interview the kid and and the foster parents about this growing story right the shot of the kid in silhouette from behind the door opening is so similar closing cast yes yeah the most probably like the most famous shot of his yeah right except this is the first time we're seeing the kid and it's a moment of just like this kid doesn't know what's about to hit him Like this kid is oblivious.

But also the kid is oblivious the whole time.

Like that is also the sort of the tragedy of it too.

This kid has no idea what's going on.

Like he's so little, like that there's just this sort of aura of trauma around him, but like we don't, but he probably has no actual conception of what's going on in his life.

But like Spielberg is so close to making this pivot to realizing a lot of his magic is the ability to tell stories from the vantage point of a child, right?

And children who are cognizant at the center of this kind of chaos and they're processing it, they're digesting it, it's changing them.

Even close encounters where the kid isn't the main part.

Yeah.

Or dogs, where the kid is part of the cast, but the kid is very specific.

And in some ways, I think the fact that this kid is just not really cognizant and like sort of overwhelmed and you see him crying and, you know, is just being sort of shuffled from place to place also like sort of fits with the theme of the movie too.

And that like, no one has any fucking idea what's going on here, you know?

So, and then, you know, and then you get back to the thing, which you guys said, which is basically like Lugene and Clovis are children and there's like the incredible, you know, so spielwriggy moment when they get in the

van.

What are those cars called?

Like the

and they're watching the Looney Tunes through the

through the window and you see it reflect in their faces and Clovis is doing the sounds and you're just like, oh yeah.

you know, these are children themselves and they are Looney Tunes characters in a way.

I apologize.

I correct myself.

You have the earlier glimpse of the sun on the front.

That's what I was talking about, which is the like that first, you know there's the shot with the dog right cool that's that's foreground the kid just kind of playing innocently as the cop is pulling up in the back and then the cop is pulling up and the kid starts like sobbing yes so minute 27 is the entrance of ben johnson right and in this movie that's already taken this pivot of like oh how quickly they get comfortable basically being in a thruple with this cop a non-sexual thruple right like now they're just like three folks hanging out on a road trip.

You know, there's that immediate sense of like, are they like bulletproof because they have this guy on their side?

They have this kind of like magic armor and now they're just going to drive to their destination and they think they will be able to make this work and everyone else thinks like this is going to end up badly somehow.

Ben Johnson's introduced at minute 27 and he gets a kind of very classical movie star introduction.

And he looks great.

He looks incredible.

And there's this air of like, here's a legend in your movie.

Like here's like a heavy hitter coming in.

And the moment you'd expect in most movies, like, okay, now the plot's really going to kick in because now this guy is on the hunt.

He's going to be like a fucking sniper rifle trying to take them down.

Yeah, we're going to be bouncing between these.

And this is right, going to be the dominant supporting performance of the movie.

And he's going to get an Oscar nomination and Tommy Lee Jones or whatever, you know, in the fugitive role.

Totally.

And yet he also has this much sort of like more melancholy, wistful energy.

Hugely understated performance, totally good performance.

I think.

But not like a big dominant character character at all.

Basically, kind of just does it all through nothing.

You kind of get everything you need to know about this guy through very little dialogue.

Like, well, and also the feeling that he, it's not spoken, but that he's like, this is a tragic story.

Right.

That he knows right away.

Exactly.

That nothing good is coming of it.

It's already a bad situation.

And like, I mean, they either have to shoot them or figure out a way to stop them.

Right.

Like, Last Picture Show is one of the shorter runtime to Oscar win performances ever.

He's

very little of

the amazing monologue.

He has one amazing monologue in the first 30 minutes.

As does Chloris Leitchman, basically.

And each of them win an Oscar for

really amazing in the movie and she's all over it.

But I think they both are winning for these big speeches they have that they crush, right?

But hers comes at the very end.

And Ben Johnson, without spoiling last picture, so people haven't seen it, is basically out of the movie at the 30-minute mark.

He is good, though.

He's fantastic.

The lion, right?

You compare like that movie, like Sam the Lion, foregrounding him so much at the beginning, giving him one big emotional speech, and then he's gone, right?

Versus this where he's just kind of steady and stable throughout.

Yeah, I mean, he's just, he's almost not, he, he's just this steady hand.

And you sort of, yeah, you come in expecting him to be a villain, quote unquote, maybe.

And instead, he's sort of as resigned as everyone else to,

oh, these kids are like, I don't, you know, I have to handle this in the best way possible, but I feel for these kids.

Well, there are two takes: there's one in which he's the villain, and you want to see our heroes outwit him, right?

Yeah, and then the other, you know, they're never going to outwit them, him, because they're silly, right?

But the way this movie is characterized with them being silly, there's also a version of this that the 30-minute mark, he enters, and you're like, finally a grown-up, someone who's going to take responsibility.

He's going to sort this out.

And we're rooting for him to find some amicable

solution.

Everyone else is running off half-cocked, but he wants to cool it down and maybe get them out of this alive.

You know, that is your hope, sort of.

Yeah.

But then it doesn't happen.

No.

Gets shot.

He's just kind of patiently.

Yeah.

I mean, I love the scene where he takes down the two local dudes who have sort of been like self-deputizing and unloads their guns.

And it's just like, this isn't like a game, you know?

Right, right.

Right.

And I think that's Fielberg's take.

Right.

Is that it's like you have this tragic little story and wrapped around it is this little little circus, this media circus that like helps nobody.

And

the movie isn't like Dog Day.

Dog Day Afternoon is loud and very forceful and

political and so like compelling to watch.

And Sugarland Express never gets to that kind of fervent, polemical point.

It's more just quietly saying, like,

you know, isn't it a little sad how, you know, the story becomes people almost waiting to watch these guys get shot versus trying to figure out, you know, how to help them.

No, I mean, well, but also, you know, the dog day afternoon thing, you're saying, it's like, yes, there's this sort of, don't you want, like, yes, everyone's sort of itching to watch them get shot.

And it's interesting here, there's a kindness

to the way people are perceiving them.

Like, yes, there are the, you know, self-deputy guys who are like, you know, let's, let's shoot them very, you know, which feel, I don't know, feels very modern in a way, in a gross way.

But then there's also this like, you know, but then there's also when they arrive at the town and they're just like, they're welcomed with open dolls.

They become folk heroes and they become, which it's like, you know, yeah, I mean, there's this weird kindness to the whole movie about them too.

Yeah.

No, they're screwed.

Well, and also the spirit of it is

like Spielberg reading this story in the newspaper, right?

And you have to imagine he's probably reading this as a resolved story.

Hey, weird thing happened.

Sure, right.

He's dead.

She's in jail.

Maybe he later learns that she got out and did manage to get custody.

I don't know.

It's basically been packaged into bite-sized entertainment as a story with a beginning and middle and an end of an odd thing that happened.

And that becomes the kind of thing that you can sort of gawk over.

Yeah.

And he's making a movie that's focusing on all of the things that the newspaper would not cover, which is what is the, what are the fucking conversations they had?

So wait, these three people were in a car together for how many hours?

How many days?

How did they eat?

So they had to go to drive-thrus only?

So what, they're just hanging out and eating chicken?

Like the movie is all the hangout shit that is, well, you could just hit the big bullet points of

they hold this guy at gunpoint.

They get the car.

There's a final standoff, whatever it is, you know, some big emotional emotional reckoning with the foster parents or whatever.

And he's like, no, the movie's about like all this stuff in between that happens.

Yeah.

And that weird reality where it's like, they're basically holding existence hostage.

They're in this like transitory state that is not sustainable.

Yeah, I mean,

it is their moment of liberation, you know?

He was in jail.

She was in, we know she was in jail beforehand.

You know, this is the one moment where they have this idea that they can do anything and they're doing it with this

ostensibly like good natured thing, you know, in their, in, in the back of their minds, which is like, let's get our kid, but it's also, it is a joyride.

It is, it is fun.

I mean, I'm basing this predominantly off of movies and TV shows, right?

But all the scenes we see where someone's holding a bunch of people hostage inside a gunpoint and they're demanding a helicopter and a million dollars and a private island and whatever the fuck fuck it is.

I'm just like, how many stories historically are there of, as Ben would say it, it all working out?

You know, like I just figured out the situation and they never caught up to me.

I negotiated so successfully that I released all the hostages.

I got everything I wanted.

I had political immunity and they never caught up with me.

It's beautiful.

Right.

And I'm

like, I've seen 8 trillion fictionalized, completely false versions of it and versions of it based on true stories that are fictionalized and whatever.

But all of them end with, eventually, they just, you can't outrun it, right?

These weird like standoff situations where you're in conversation with authorities and they're just trying to get you to let go, let go of the vehicle, of the weapon, of the hostage, of whatever it is, and they'll promise you everything and you think you can game this out to your own advantage.

And it just like fucking never works out.

Like maybe our listeners will write in and be like, here, here are the 20 most famous examples of someone just nailing it.

But I feel like if those stories existed, existed, we would know that.

So, from the moment you get into this situation where you're like, the longer this goes on, you're just kind of prolonging the inevitability.

How does this end?

Do I fight it violently?

Do I just like hand myself over and go back to prison?

Like, there's no version in which they go, like, you know what?

If you let go of the car, we'll let you move into this house and raise this child.

No questions.

Because they don't kill anyone.

There is a version of them being like, look, we're sorry, we shouldn't have done this.

And the answer is like, Well, you're going back to prison, probably with a little extra.

You kidnapped a cop,

but

you're not going to die.

And you're, you know,

who knows what will happen.

Maybe one day you'll see your

prayer.

No, you know.

The logical fallacy of people in this situation is they're like, fuck, I just can't go back to prison again.

Is there any other option?

But also, there's a third option.

These are people in desperate circumstances.

It's a movie about people where it's just kind of like they just know, like, no, man, like

it, it kind of has to be all or nothing.

That's the vibe of this couple of like, look, either we're going to somehow pull this off in some fantasy cartoon way, we'll make it across the border and live this paradise life, or what's going to happen is what we kind of don't want to think about, but is always sort of going to be our end, which is like, yeah, either we're in the slammer or we're dead or whatever.

And like, at least we gave it a shot.

But it also speaks to you.

Like, they're just not going to be like, you know, I'm going to put my nose to the grindstone and I'm going to convince these people.

But the larger cultural themes that the movies are really tackling at this point is the movies are trying to speak to a younger generation that just feel without options.

Yeah.

Who feels without options and are just like, all of this feels wrong.

I want to fight against this without any sense of what I'm looking for instead, other than that I need to push past everything that's being told to me as a given.

Ben, I feel like you wanted to say something.

Often when people commit crimes,

I was kind of trying to cue Ben up.

Really thinking it exactly.

Right.

And so

people,

for whatever reason, reason, just go through with it and don't think beyond just the goal of I'm going to rob this liquor store and I need money.

Right.

And then I'll figure it out.

And then, yeah.

So that's today's problem is I need money.

Right.

In parenting.

I'm a parent.

You are.

Times three.

Now, you know, there's sort of, there's the sort of gentle parenting world or whatever.

And sometimes people say like, you shouldn't say, be careful to your kid all the time when your kid is fetching knives from the stove or you know whatever your you know insane thing your kid wants to do climb the empire state building you shouldn't say you shouldn't say be careful

but you can't wait what do you say instead of be careful i'm gonna get to that but like the idea being you say be careful you're kind of instilling fear in them like this is what awful parenting blogs do they're just like watch your language in every single way and if you don't behave this way you're terrible but nonetheless instead you're supposed to say what's your plan right you're supposed to say as your kid i guess, is climbing up the couch.

You're supposed to be like, what's your plan?

Right.

Like, you're like, so that's sort of the thing where the kid is like, well, I want to get to the top of the couch.

And you're like, you're the one who has to instill in the mic.

You're going to do that?

Well, what's going to happen when you get to the top of the couch?

Are you doing this now?

I've done it, but I say be careful all the time because I'm a bit of a nervous Nelly.

Yeah, no shit.

But like, I don't know.

But I'm not a parent, but I think that's someone should say to these guys, what's your, what's your plan?

But if you asked them, they would be like, our plan is to make it to Mexico and we'll figure it out.

Top of couch good.

I mean,

hell yeah.

Wait, Raising Arizona.

Top of Couch Good.

Who are you?

J.D.

Vance?

Like, Raising Arizona.

Wait.

No, Raising Arizona.

I'm just barreling past that.

No!

No.

Raising Arizona, Griffin.

He likes the inside of the couch more.

Yeah.

Raising Arizona.

Movie comes out in

enough.

Movie comes out in the late 80s.

Yes.

Kind of has a plot like this.

Yes, it does.

Obviously, a much more absurd movie.

Right.

But it's the state, and they're not kidnapping their baby.

They're just kidnapping a baby that they kind of feel like is sort of a free baby that they can have.

And that is a movie that walks you through them being like society basically is set up in a way where this is our only way to solve it.

We deserve a baby.

We're good people.

We're sweethearts.

We're just going to go get a baby and we're going to figure it out.

And what I love about Raising Arizona is they kind of are, you know, doing it for a while.

And then of, yes, it comes apart and they return the baby and it actually works out for them.

Yes.

And the ending of Raising Arizona is so moving.

Yes.

But that to me is the sort of fun version of the Sugarland Express.

I agree.

But here's like the

even more loony tunes.

Yeah.

The lack of a plan in this movie is what makes it most fascinating to me.

Right.

And yet,

I bought a bag of Betelgeuse gummies, discounted Halloween candy, and they are so addicted to them.

Unbelievable.

Weirdly good.

So I went back to Target to be like, they must still have some more, probably even more discounted, and they're not there.

And now I'm like, fuck, do I go online and figure out where to buy more of them in bulk?

Because these are, these are somehow the best sour gummies I've ever had.

I don't know why.

And on top of that, they look like spiders and skulls and eyeballs.

And they come in bags with sandworms on them.

There's only one gummy in each bag.

Huge waste of place.

I mean, I think they're meant to be fucking trick-or-treat.

Even if I was trick-or-treating, I'd be fucking pissed.

I agree.

These are pissed gummies.

But I like that they're big.

I like that they're hardy gummies.

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Listen, what I was going to say, there's this weird

kind of juxtaposition, I would say, of like, you know, William Athernon goes to the bathroom.

She's waiting in the stall.

This is the beginning of the movie, right?

She leads him into the bathroom.

Right.

She leads him into the men's room and he's like, you got to get out of here.

Right.

And

he's like, what are you doing here?

And she's like, I can't wait.

And he's like, right here, right now.

And she's, he's like, I'll be out in four months.

And she's like, I can't wait that long.

Right.

So you're like, oh, basically like unplanned conjugal visit, right?

Spur of the moment, heat of passion.

They're making out.

He pulls down her pants, great Spielberg shot of her with second pair of jeans underneath.

He goes, There's another pair of pants underneath.

And she goes, Yeah, we're leaving.

And you're like, oh, she did have a level of plan of wearing two outfits at once so that she could go into the bathroom and like quick change and pass clothes off to him.

And they could walk out of there.

So there's a level of intentionality of she left home that morning with that much figured out well but that's i think that is very purposeful it's like she only has that figure correct she has she has a plan she does have a plan but the plan but the plan ends there and it's like we're gonna walk out and we're gonna get in somebody's car and then we're just gonna drive It's the least plan I've ever seen.

And yet, it's not just that in the spur of the moment, she's like, fuck it.

Let's make a run for it.

She's planned.

She planned enough to wear two pairs of jeans.

And that's the end of it.

It's the cake and the cartoons.

Yes.

With the nail filed inside of it.

Right.

And you're like, even if the cake makes it through

and the guy's able to slowly but meticulously grind through the bars.

Then what?

Then what?

That's just the start of it.

Has anyone ever actually done that?

You know, like, has anyone ever actually seen it?

Yeah, my uncle.

My uncle.

He nailed filed his way out of a prison.

Yep.

Is that true?

No.

You don't know.

I believe it.

Okay.

I just think of the cake and the cake escape in

Grand Bud Peter.

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, that's, it's a great question.

Is that a thing that became shorthand in cartoons and such?

Because there was some example

that actually you're like, no, the origin of that is Bugs Bunny.

Right, Bugs Bunny came up with that.

No criminal ever even.

I still watch Looney Students and My Kids sometimes, and I watched this Daffy Duck one that's set on the Hollywood lot in the 40s.

It's just filled with jokes about, you know, 30s and 40s Hollywood.

Sure.

And I was like, this is the most inscrutable thing I've ever moved.

All of this is flying over her.

Do you understand how important that was imprinting upon me where I like see that cartoon?

I'm like, I need to figure out who all these people are.

Me too.

It's called Hollywood Daffy.

Yes.

And it's got like, you know, Betty Davis, Johnny Weissmuller, Charlie Chaplin, Jimmy Duranty, Bing Crosby, like,

and all the caricatures.

And you're like, are there people who really look like this?

Yes.

Jimmy Durante's nose is the size of his leg.

And like, like the joke is dark gable has dumbo ears jimmy duranti has like a a house that he's in and there's like a an extension for his nose that's a that's 100 comedy points

yeah he did he had a big schnauz yeah the big schnauz almond um

so

but sugarland express yeah sorry no i'm just trying like um

are there plot points we need to it's a somewhat of a tough movie to go beat by beat through because it's shaggy but i'm trying to think of like what are other plot things we need to mention i do love the bathroom, like when she needs to piss.

And there's, you know, he has that frame which where he keeps Atherton in the foreground and she's in the background and she keeps running back and forth.

And she's doing her little pee-pee dance.

But this is what I mean about the Spielberg.

Like, it's all storytelling economy where he's like, how do you get as much in one shot?

Yeah.

In one shot.

And it all feels so him in terms of the framing of faces.

And,

you know, it's all there.

Yeah, I don't know.

they they go

they go get chicken they go to the car lot they sleep in the

RV which is a term I remember today it's the term his runaway vacation but you know RV for short

six inch summer is that it yeah he had a six inch summer Robin Williams gives Josh Hutcherson a motivational talk about the fact that he's picked on by the bigger kids at school and he's like I was like you when I was younger It's very short.

One year I had a six-inch summer.

I came back, it spreaded like a beanstalk.

And six-inch summer lives in my head forever, especially because Josh Hutcherson never got any longer.

If anything, got shorter.

Robin Williams had a negative six.

I was watching clips of Robin Williams on Craig Ferguson recently.

Fun to watch.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's that's a real we didn't know what we had.

We took him for granted.

We took the late late show with Craig Ferguson for granted.

Well, that's what I meant.

Totally.

I feel like Robin got his flowers in his lifetime, not consistently, but across on balance.

Craig Ferguson, it was just like, we let this go and now like the fucking late night talk shows are grave.

The shift from Ferguson to Corden.

Beginning of the end.

It's beginning of the end, but it's also, is that the most drastic shift in vibes, like, and quality?

Because it's like from Leno to Fallon, it's kind of like, well, you know.

From Carson to Leno.

Right.

Carson to Leno isn't great.

So I guess old Carson was pretty phoned in.

Right.

Yeah.

But Corden is just like doubling down on everything that was already heading in a bad direction.

Kilbourne to Stewart is like one of the biggest leaps in history.

People try to act like Kilbourne was good.

Kilbourne was terrible.

Kilbourne was so bad.

I talk about a guy who had a six-inch summer.

Did he have a

drink of water?

He had to at some point.

Right.

Yeah.

He had several.

Yeah.

Maybe.

I just like that when

Atherton's being questioned by his friend who's trying to stop him from like, you're going to fucking ruin your life.

Don't walk out of here.

His response is just, i got it if i don't she's gonna run off right yeah that's what i'm saying he's along for the right she's she's the she's the driver he's the pass but everything is just sort of like caught up in the intensity of a moment i don't i don't dislike william atherton at all i think he's a very good screen presence and he's fine in the movie i kind of wish someone else was in that role who sort of popped more

there's something

there's nothing wrong with this movie this is a good movie so it's not like i'm like ah if only fucking you know robert redford had played that role i'm not not saying that there's nothing nice about him being such a yeah there is zero you know like she's so vibrant and he's sort of in the as you said like he's on

along for the rock i just like something more than like sort of a nerdy little you know can i have like one more fun character in this movie yeah right because it's basically like hawn is a firecracker slide is pretty boring johnson is very compelling but you know it's a quiet performance yeah but yes slide's a little boring atherton he's he's doing his thing, but it's not, you know, like, what if there was just like, I don't know, like a funky grandma or something, like, just like someone else, right?

But Atherton is what Ben's describing.

He's just like a low-level criminal who's not really thinking.

This is kind of like driven by like energy.

I don't think we have already recorded our Jaws episodes.

It's not like we start the Jaws episode by being like Steven Spielberg after making the Sugarland Express was like, I need a fucking movie where a shark bites someone in half, goddammit.

But it does feel that way where in Sugarland, he's like, I'm treating this like pretty realistically.

And this is a human movie about like people in odd circumstances.

And in Jaws, he's like, Quint will go

and like, it's going to be big and like explosive.

Can I circle back to this was a thesis forming in my head, right?

All this stuff about the cultural movements, looking at him

relative to the other movie brats and as they're developing, right?

All the other guys I said who basically had to be forced to make a personal film away from commercial instincts and then they found their voice, right?

Whereas Spielberg starts with something that feels more like a smaller, more personal film on its face.

And the other guy who's kind of similar to him in this way is Coppola, who kept doing these sort of like exercises.

And it was like, no one wants these.

These are not connecting.

And then it's sort of like, if you don't make a hit next, you're done.

You're like Wonderkin status has enough of yourself

and your rain people.

And it's like, take this fucking beach read and make this something that works and what's weird is in the case of both jaws and godfather these guys find really personal ways into this material it's not just like the sort of i got to take a job for hire and just make it the best that i can in the sort of let's say zemekis romancing the stone thing i just need a hit give me a solid script i'll direct the shit out of it but that feels like a job for hire for him Whereas Godfather and Jaws, those two guys found things that no one else could have found at that time.

They're working off best-selling material.

So they, you're right, that they have that in their hands of like, well, that's a bit of a guarantee, isn't it?

Like, this is something that people have even heard of.

Right.

This movie's going to sell itself in a certain way, but also.

But those are not movies where they were like, yeah, I'll just direct the shit out of it.

You're right.

It's much, much more expansive than that.

What they did there.

They like tunneled into it.

And they both were guys who maybe needed to, as I was saying, kind of refract themselves through someone else's story.

Yeah, I just feel like with Sugarland, like, there's just a lot of restraint with Spielberg.

Not that this is,

it has flashy moments, and obviously, people like Pauline Kale watched it and were like, wow, this guy is a stylish filmmaker.

But I mean, it's so stylish, but yeah, but it is not.

I mean, what are like, let me look at the movies of 1974.

I mean, and I think what that gets down to ultimately, and I don't want to repeat my, but it's like this weird sweetness to it, too.

That it's like, you know, Spielberg, which is, yeah, which is so Spielberg-y, but like, because I think the thing is, is when you're dealing with people like this, there's a, you know, making it flashier might mean sort of,

like, obviously there's a Looney Tunes element to them.

So I don't want to say like cartooning it back, but

might turn them into, you know, more over-the-top characters.

But instead, sort of the

lack of flash is just him burrowing into character.

Yeah.

Is that, yeah.

It's fascinating because, you know, famously, Pauline Kale put her like chips down and was like, this is one of the most exciting debuts in movie history.

And then she saw Rage of the Lost Arc and was like, hack, dog shit.

Hawk to it.

She like went all in on him on this one.

And you read the tenor of that review and you look at the other reviews that this movie got, most people are kind of like, eh, whatever.

It's like some flashy thing.

It's got moments.

Let's not really hang together.

Right.

We'll talk about it.

But

there was a feeling coming out of this that it was like.

Most people were not bowled over by this.

It didn't even have the sort of dual, like, oh shit, people in the industry are sitting up straight.

He was in a position where he needed to, coming off of this, make something that worked.

This thing totally flatlined commercially, you know, and people were just kind of comparing it unfavorably to Bonnie and Clyde and other shit like this, Lovers on the Run movies.

I can tell you a little bit about that, but is there anything more we want to talk about in the movie before we do that?

Talk about the reaction to the movie.

Should we talk about the ending proper?

I mean, sad.

A thing that is funny.

The bear gets me.

If you try to put yourself yourself in the headspace of 1974,

sure.

X's chainsaw massacre.

But you're also like this Spielberg kid, Scheinberg's Folly, right?

This young kid he signed to like a multi-year deal.

What's he doing?

He just makes car pictures in the desert?

It's true.

And you look at the negative reviews for this movie, and people are like, he just seems really interested in the cars.

He's this gearhead.

Yeah.

They truly were just sort of like

such a character-based humanistic.

But it's got really good vehicle action in it when it cars when it has that stuff it's well done

but it's yeah this is not movie is not like an evil can evil style like car phantasm you know like you know cut it's rolling over just like slide just you know sitting there by the water similarly to the ending of dope

just sitting by the water

same shot yeah and draws has similarly sundown the silhouettes and just someone left to kind of process what they've just been through um it's it is interesting to think that Texas Chainsaw Massacre came out the same year, which it did, because it's, you know, obviously.

It's a portrait of Texas.

True.

Spielberg, like big times Toby Hooper 10 years later, right?

Or yeah, about 10 years later with Poltergeist.

But it's another film that feels weirdly twinned to this in certain ways.

It is, yeah.

But they are contemporaries, really, even though by that point Spielberg was, you know, more powerful.

This film, yeah, the ending, yeah, Atherton dying.

Yeah, I don't know.

Is there anything else to say about it?

It's sort of like, this is what's going to happen.

Like, it's not even some big moment.

It's just like, yeah, someone was finally going to just get off a shot because they've been waiting to.

I also think there's just like the credit to Goldie's performance, though, too, which I do think is really, you know, like

she can't believe

in that moment, like her whole world collapse.

Even though it's like everyone might have seen this coming up, everything, yeah, yeah, and but everything has drained out of her face, and she, all that light is gone.

And I do think like you know I do think this movie you know I like it does really sort of surprise you in what she can do and I think she sort of in some ways rarely like used bashful toolbox in the rest of her career well and when we did our swing shift episode the fascinating thing is you know she demands these recuts and reshoots because she feels like she was being minimized in the movie Christine Lottie was getting the attention she wanted more of the focus on the chemistry between her and Kurt.

And then you watch the original cut that we did, and she's so much better in the demi-cut.

He was wrong.

But it's like a performance that's tonally much closer to her in the final moments of this movie.

And then like Goldie's like sort of rock-solid movie star persona from the late 70s on becomes like, she seems just kind of like a Ditzy funny girl, but she's smarter than she seems and she's got a deeper well of emotion than she seems, right?

And this is not that where like like this, you're watching it the whole time and you're like, is she crazy?

Is she an idiot?

Is she like playing everybody?

Like you can't quite figure out what's driving her.

And then what is so effective about that final moment is she plays it in a way where you immediately see, oh, she genuinely just never thought this could happen.

It's pure impulse.

Like every you realize that like everything she was acting on is pure impulse.

And I think that's sort of what makes the plight of like her trying to get the kids sort sort of so moving too is that like, yeah, she doesn't realize this is a bad idea because she does sort of truly love her kid and she does just wants her, she does just want to take the, there's nothing else going on in her head other than just like that pure goal.

And so it becomes so sad.

Versus like from not here on out, but shortly hereafter, Goldie's whole thing being like, you think she's just dumb, but actually she has the bones to be the best soldier in the army.

This is a movie where the reveal at the end not that it's like a twist or anything is like there's actually kind of nothing else going on yeah she's not there's no she's like a shell of a she's she becomes a shell of a person and you're just like holy shit i don't know this is not one of my favorite spielberg movies i mean is it anyone's no um but uh

every time i've watched it which is basically like three times in my life right like every 10 years or so I've always been quietly impressed.

Like, you know, and I know what to expect and nonetheless.

you saying, is it anyone's favorite?

I've relayed to you a number of conversations I've had with people when people off the record ask me, hey, who's coming up on the podcast?

And I go, we're doing the first half of Spielberg.

I've had a couple of people, particularly filmmakers, say, you know what fucking rules Sugarland Express.

It does rule.

And I think it's for those guys also probably, they're just so.

used to the imagery of his big movies and you watch something like Sugarland and you're like, wow, there's stuff to discover here.

But it also feels like, and part of it's like maybe, you know, 50th anniversary stuff.

But like it is recirculating a bit more.

For a long time, it was like only available in Spielberg box sets.

I hadn't seen it and I went to see it at

the forum.

Griffin and I tried to organize a test together, but it didn't work.

But I also think it did like a big Tribeca thing.

Yes.

And Spielberg spoke and was like, this might be the first time it's screened commercially in decades, which I kind of feel like can't be true, but also it does feel like for a long time it was treated as like weird early curio.

The film was tested in the fall of 73.

Universal loves it.

They're like really impressed with the movie, but preview audiences were shown it, and this is interesting, on a double bill with Haper Moon, which makes sense

vibe-wise, right?

But maybe they're also just kind of like, I'm loving that movie I just watched.

And like, okay, here's Sugarland Express.

And it's like, that's not jiving with them or whatever.

But it basically got kind of bad test results.

Paper Moon's also just like a fucking crowd pleaser.

Like you read the way people were talking about it at the time.

Tatum, like,

cute.

Despite it getting Oscar nominations, people were like, this is just sort of like popcorn fluff for the masses.

Like this thing's fun, quaint black and white.

Right.

About a Bible salesman.

Right.

Fake Bible salesman.

Spielberg says, you know, oh, sorry, Universal Executive Bill Gilmore says, like, the first half audiences were with when it was more of a caper.

that's fun and then as it starts to kind of curdle into

you know melancholy and darkness they would lose the audience and the ending they would just kind of be sitting there in silence doesn't ever become like a proper chase movie and it doesn't ever or becomes less and less of a goldie horn picture as it goes on um spielberg uh the original cut was about 121 minutes spielberg cut it down a little bit trying to kind of hone it a little more commercially.

It wasn't forced to, but he just sort of did it.

They intended to put this movie out Thanksgiving 73, but because it's not testing very well, they kind of dumped it into March 74 and it made $7 million and was pulled from theaters quickly and like,

meh.

And it came out around the same time as Badlands and Thieves Like Us.

Oh, wow.

And there was kind of this like, yeah, there's a little too much of the same thing right now.

It's the long tale of Bonnie and Clyde of people trying to recapture that type of movie.

None of those are carbon copies, but I also Badlands was not a big hit, but it was like kind of a film festival sensation.

And there were like 50 people who responded the way that Pauline Kale responded.

Where coming off of that, it was just like Malik's anointed.

People want his next project.

And Paramount's going, like, what's the most ambitious idea you got?

Whereas coming off of this, Universal is not like, great, do another one of those.

Universal's like, you got to figure out what your thing is.

And it's, I think think the reason we've been saying that a lot of filmmakers now seem to be rediscovering and finding a new love for this movie is it is this kind of like fascinating sliding doors glimpse into like, what if Steven Spielberg wasn't forced into becoming Steven Spielberg?

And in a way, what he became feels like the most honest reflection of who he was meant to be.

Right.

It worked out.

Imagine a path in which this movie.

You could imagine this movie making $14 million and the studio being like, cool, you make youth pictures.

He just stays there for a while.

He could sort of turn around there.

I mean, Spielberg recollects, you know, that period when it was supposed to come out.

You've got Exorcist, The Sting, Papillon, American Graffiti, Serpico, these like big movies, you know, with big stars making a lot of money.

And by the time Sugarland came out, he just kind of felt like an afterthought.

The fact that it was like, oh, based on a true story, it's like, that's not that juicy a pitch.

Right.

There's another movie saying saying that it's about a guy named leatherface

the story's a little bit wide no no no the title of the movie is very subtle and will not grab your eye wait you tell me this shit's true

um texas train saw is the funniest based on true story where it's like what's the true story and they're like like some people have killed people in the past murder exists it's kind of about ed gein it's not like remotely about it geen in that edge also used human skin that's like it anyway spielberg this is a good quote says after sugarland i learned how important marketing is.

I think it's as important as making the picture.

And that is part of the Spielberg thing, without a doubt.

He says if he did it again, he might make it differently.

He might have the first half really be focused on Ben Johnson's character, Captain Tanner, and have everything sort of from inside the police part of it and don't see the fugitives until you get to them later.

Interesting, Spielberg-y kind of swerve.

It feels like a late Spielberg thing in the sense that it's like, it's like, okay, like a bridge of spies type of thing or like, you know, it feels like, you know, procedure and authority feels like something, yeah, like he would definitely do later in his career.

It also feels like Spielberg's still being haunted by the energy dip from test screening audiences.

A little bit.

He's still 50 years later trying to game out.

Like, is there a way I could have kept them locked in the whole time?

Because starting with Jaws, he becomes the guy that like straps you into the roller coaster and you're with him.

Pauline Kale, Kale,

after a few jabs about how, you know, she's not sure if Spielberg is actually smart and the movie is commercial and shallow, but she's like, composition seems to come naturally to him, as it does to some of the young Italians.

I assume she means Marty and Francis and Brian.

American

Spielberg uses his gift in a very free and easy American way for humor and for physical response to action.

He could be that rarity among directors, a born entertainer, perhaps a new generation's Howard Hawks.

The thing with Pauline Kale, where you're reading her reviews, and it happens all the time when you read them, where she's like, eh, this piece of shit.

And then four sentences later, she's like, I don't know, maybe he's the next Howard Hawks.

And you're like, that guy was pretty good.

Look, I'm also like a pretty good comparison for Spielberg.

It is.

He is.

I mean, she's right.

Yeah.

Goosebumps from that sentence as a field to just be like, God, the degree to which she fucking.

She just was fucking right.

The only thing she's wrong about is by the time he makes like Raiders of the Lost Arc, she's like, poo.

He's just treading on his own jokes.

And this is airless.

And you're just like, Pauline, what's the matter with you?

Who like stepped on your feet today?

I wish I could go in a time-lush machine and show Pauline Kale Red Notice.

Exactly.

Like, don't you understand?

Yeah.

So, you mean red one?

No, red one.

All red one.

Either.

Wait, what's red notice?

I'd love to show it to you.

That's so weird because you're a professional entertainment journalist that you forget Red Notice, the most watched movie in the history of movies.

That's the Netflix one?

It's Dwayne Johnson, Ryan Reynolds, and Gal Gadal.

8 trillion minutes watched every where they're like all art thieves and cops.

I can't remember.

I watched it.

I did not watch it.

I'm bad at my job.

That's mathematically impossible that you didn't watch it.

Everyone watched it every day.

Okay, okay.

The film.

One best screenplay at the Cam Film Festival, which people forget, came out in March 1974, end of March 1974, Griffin, and it was not charting.

Number one at the box office is the best picture winner of 1973.

The Godfather Part 2?

No, no,

oh, oh,

oh, oh, oh, oh.

Huh.

It's not French Connection.

No.

It is.

That I believe is 71.

1973.

Nope.

It's not Midnight Cowboy.

I'm trying to think of the early 70s winners.

That's 69, I think.

Oh, you're right.

But it wins in 70.

Okay, so it's not.

What's the movie that wins in between the godfathers?

That's what I'm trying to.

David, in fact, that's what I'm trying to remember.

The movie that wins in between.

There was a gigantic hit starring two major stars.

I'll fiddler in the roof.

It stars two major stars.

It's The Sting.

The Sting.

One of the highest-grossing movies.

I should have done that.

I was just re-watching it.

Adjusted for Inflation.

The Sting made like.

It's right up there.

Made like $20 billion.

I mean, Thanos was in it, to be fair.

He was.

Huge hit.

It's been out for four months or whatever, and it's still completely crushing it.

Number two at the box office is a big flop.

It is a musical film starring someone who didn't make a lot of movies.

Interesting.

It's based on

a musical.

Is it mahogany or latest?

But when you say someone who doesn't make a lot of movies, is it someone like that who's primarily a musician or a singer?

No.

Interesting.

It's the other medium of performance.

Comedy?

Yeah.

Primarily a

television star.

Star of a TV star.

Not that she didn't make movies, but she's Mary Taylor Moore.

Nope.

Fuck.

Nope.

And it's not Lucille Ball and Maime.

It is Lucille Ball and Mame.

That's exactly what it is.

You did.

Her last role, Lucille Ball's last film role.

Right.

She didn't make a lot of movies.

Yeah.

Now, she did tell Jay Gerhoover to go take a hike, though.

Yeah.

And everyone else.

Someone did that.

No, it was the opposite.

Jay Edgar Hoover said, I like you.

And everyone was like, yay!

You haven't seen Juror number two yet.

No, maybe not.

I mean, it'll be old business by the time this episode comes out, but I'm sitting there watching it.

It made me so retroactively angry that J.K.

Simmons got an Oscar nomination for being the Ricardos.

I'm like, J.K.

Simmons should get four acting nominations just for Juror number two.

He's so good.

That's exactly what you want him doing.

Yeah, he does the Chicago accent.

Oh my God, David.

That sounds good.

You're going to nut.

I'm going to nut.

I'm already nutting.

Number two is Maim.

Number three is the film that The Sting beats to Best Picture that is another of the Adjusted for Inflation, like highest-grossing movies of all time.

That's not, it's not The Exorcist.

It sure is.

William Friedkin's The Exorcist.

Yeah.

Which is good.

Was Exorcist the expected winner?

Was Sting just a juggernaut?

I think The Sting was a juggernaut, but I think that was a pretty hot Oscars because The Exorcist was such a like hot-button sensation.

And you had two of the highest-grossing movies of all time.

Yeah.

Like humongous cultural phenomenons.

And then you've got three of the other three biggest movies of all time: Cries and Whispers, A Touch of Class, and American Graffiti, which was a big movie.

Yeah.

That is a really good file.

I have like three full-on blockbusters.

Sting, graffiti, exorcist.

Cries and whispers, which is a wonderful nomination, and then Touch of Class, where you're like, yeah, they had to have like a British thing.

Right.

But it's not the worst movie.

Two austere European, emotionally devastating films, and then like three like raw lighting.

So it was sort of like goofy.

Yeah, it's okay.

Yeah, it's such a class.

I've never seen such a class.

I watched it for my book.

Exorcist is a far better film than The Sting, in my opinion.

But I get it with The Sting just in terms of like the vibes were great, right?

I mean, like, right?

I mean, everyone had a good time.

Tinkly piano, cons,

hats.

Things slowly transitioning from daguerreotype into real limit.

Good.

That still gets me.

People were losing their shit.

Number four at the box office.

So Bradford would have been Captain America and Paul Newman would be Tony Stark.

Yes, he would.

If Robert Shaw is Thanos.

Right.

Right?

Sure.

And Marvin Hamlish is our

sylvestry.

Number four, it's a

action-adventure movie.

One of the drunkest films ever made.

One of the drunkest films ever ever made.

It's an action-adventure movie.

I'm just assuming.

People were drunk, I'm assuming.

It's not like Kelly's Heroes or something like that.

No.

Is it?

That was probably a drunk one, too, though.

Is it a war film, though?

No.

No, it's not.

It's not.

One of the drunkest films ever made.

Does it have a lot of old British theater acts?

Correct.

Brit.

A lot of Brits.

It's got a lot of Brits.

Including one who was just like a walking barrel of wine.

Oliver Reed.

Correct.

Okay.

Like one of those guys with, like, he was really famously drunk.

You're like, that guy?

Are you sure?

Nothing about him reads that way.

I mean, I just love like maybe twice a year, I read the Wikipedia entry on Oliver Reed's death during the filming of Gladiator, and they were like, He's uninsurable.

If he has one more drink, he'll die.

And they hired a body man to watch him at all times to make sure he didn't drink.

And then he was found dead at a pub sitting next to his body man.

And they were like, You had one job.

And he was like, I was never going to stop.

Are you fucking kidding me?

He died doing a drinking competition.

And they were like, Wait, really?

Yeah.

The guy was basically like, What did you expect?

And everyone was like, Yeah, we pressed no charge.

He had like an accountability buddy.

It was, I believe it was truly David Hemings, who is in Gladiator, another great British actor who had been drafted into that.

And he was like, Yeah, I'm sorry.

I don't know, man.

Right.

And you're like, What?

He died of old age?

No, he was 27.

I mean, Alvareed is one of those things where you see him in Gladiator and you're like, oh, he's like 75 in this, right?

And they're like, no, he's like just turned 60.

Denzel now is 15 years.

Yeah.

And Denzel looks

right.

Like he could have sex all day

in that movie and does.

In the movie?

He

really is very good in that movie.

He's so good.

In a film, I think, is totally fine and entertaining, but like he is just sort of

just seeing we got the bucket after.

He's a little bi.

Yeah, it's a good.

The bucket's good.

I haven't seen the movie, but I'm a big fan of the bucket.

It's a good bucket.

Anyway, what's this movie?

It stars Oliver reed okay oliver reed drunk adventure film action adventure can you give me like is there another subgenre is there a setting is there swashbuckler oh is it uh three musketeers it's the three musketeers uh a film i've seen uh don't remember very well but i've seen both it and the four musketeers

um but you know it's just it's not just that it's like oliver reed and stuff it's like Oliver Reed and Richard Tamlin, they're, you know, they've got their hats like, wow, fuck you, you know, waving swords around.

Like, these are not like

these aren't really like nuanced

performances.

Yeah, I've never seen those.

People love them, right?

I think now they would probably play a little like stiffer than we think.

I feel like they've had a bit of a reclamation project recently on them.

Well, because Soderberg is so fond of the Richard Lester sort of vibe.

I think Tarantino loves those movies.

They shot on a really unique film format, too.

Drunkovision?

I was going to say they just poured brandy into the camera.

Beerovision?

They used a beer bottle as the lens.

Wait a minute.

Food alcoholism is a serious business, except when it's British actors from the 60s.

Say that while I'm already laughing,

then it's funny.

Because now they're all old and/or dead.

So it's like, okay, you know.

Remind me who the four were.

Oh, in the in the Three Musketeers.

Michael York is D'Artagnan.

Oliver Reed is Athos.

Frank Finlay, the great Frank Finlay, who recently died, as Porthos, and Richard Chamberlain as Aramis.

Who is America?

Richard Chamberlain, but you know, kind of in that world.

Love to pull the cork.

You know, I've been misattributing that to you.

You have, you've been, or, or I have, one of us has been misattributing the speaker of that line.

Yes.

Because Dakon Matthews is in the scene, but he doesn't actually say it.

Dakon Matthews is the one who she negotiates with.

And he's amazing in that scene.

And I already forget the name of the actor that pulled it for.

But it's my favorite actor of all time.

My favorite performance in movie history.

Number five of the box office.

I already mentioned it.

It's a big drama with some big stars, big long movie.

It's a big, long movie.

Is it touch of class?

No.

No.

It was a big hit.

It was like a big expensive film.

I think of it as kind of a boring movie.

Honestly.

Interesting.

Major director?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kind of.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, major-ish.

He made some big movies, including this one.

You think so?

Two huge stars.

Kind of boring.

Two huge

stars.

Dalton Trumba wrote the script, so it was a wet one.

He was in the bathtub.

I can't click.

Flitch Flash.

Click, click, clatten.

Dalton Trumba wrote it.

You think it's a boar?

Male and female star?

No, two boys.

He's a boy.

Big boy movie.

Big boy movie.

It's a big boy movie.

The movie is a teenager that boys would tell me rocked, and I'd be like, eh, it's okay.

Really?

Yeah, it was remade recently, like completely irrelevantly.

Teenage boys loved it.

Nah, but that's kind of a bad clue.

Yeah.

Because I feel like I'm just.

It was remade irrelevantly.

Yeah, in the last 10 years.

In the last 10 years.

I'm going to give you a hint.

It's a prison movie.

Oh, Pepium.

I mean, I'm not wrong, right?

Yeah.

Kind of boring.

It's interesting.

Okay.

Well, we disagree.

Wow, we completely disagree.

But it just goes on a bit.

Yeah, it's got cool stuff and like they're good.

Yeah.

I've told that story on the podcast about Steve McQueen smuggling the Coke in the tires of his luxury sports car that he made them fly to the island.

That rings a faint bell, but I'm not sure.

Well, I've ruined the story.

You sure have.

Yeah,

just told it.

It was Dustin Hoffman recognizing that's the level of star power this guy has.

That he demands they fly his sports car so he can drive it around the island in between.

Right.

And he's like, oh, ho, ho.

And he was like, that's a power move.

And it's like, no, the car is the packaging system for the Coke.

You can snort this car.

Yeah.

Number six in the box office, I just want to say, is a uh i think hong kong action movie called blood fingers

looks fun cool i don't know how that's in the top 10 but it is blood fingers uh you've also got uh serpico you've heard of that one yeah i uh a good movie although lower on my 70s

and 70s pacino but i kind of rocks yeah no it doesn't it just kind of rocks that it's about a guy who's like i don't want to be a cop i want to be like kind of a dirty hippie guy peter serafino which would always shit talk serpico i've had this conversation conversation with him like 15 times where he's like you know a movie i don't like serpico and i'm like really why and he goes he's kind of an annoying guy he is kind of the whole movie is kind of about it being annoying dude is annoying

because i've always i like i love the movie he's right he is right i mean like serpico is in the right infamously annoying he's yeah it's annoying that he's so right number eight is a movie i've never heard of starring Elliot Could and Robert Blake, the mystery man himself.

That's not Busting.

Busting.

Yeah, yeah, that's a a Himes movie.

I don't know that movie.

Yeah, it's a Himes movie.

It's a cop movie.

We talked about it in our 2010 episode a little bit.

I don't remember.

Good name.

I've never seen it.

It's a gold blind spot for me.

Do you think it makes them feel good?

In the 70s, Busting didn't really make anyone feel good.

Number nine at the box office is the great

Blazing Saddles.

Gun in my head, my favorite comedy of all time.

Good call.

And number 10 at the box office is a major flop of the year, The Great Gatsby.

Oh, yeah.

Jack Clayton's terminally dull, nice looking.

Just one of those inexplicably inert movies.

Yeah.

And that's why when people shit on the Luhrmann movie, I'm like, I don't know, man.

That movie is fun and moves.

And you can see the really boring.

It's a Luhrmann movie.

I've seen it 1,000 times.

You know, I think if they try doing four more Broadway musicals, they're going to crack.

But at the same time,

okay, apparently the one that was in Boston was good.

Right.

The other one, the one that's currently on Broadway is Garb, but apparently the other one's.

one's but is the other one gonna transfer or i think yeah definitely right probably definitely probably it does seem like the the bad one made so little impact that they can probably just have another one also the the one from art is like has music by florence and the machine so it's probably a little bit it is

like more grabby sounds like the dog days are over

here's the thing that's interesting about this current era of David Sims we're living through.

This current era of David Sims.

What's the great thing of what?

Okay, you are.

You are admittedly pretty stressed and sleep deprived at all times.

Sometimes you have 90% less tolerance for my jokes than you usually do.

And other times you are so susceptible to them.

Very amused by that.

I'll throw out just real weak tea and it'll break you.

You do seem, David does seem just to place this episode real tired all the time.

I think that's not going to change for a little bit.

And, you know, previously, you've always been considered a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.

Leave me alone.

We're done.

We're done.

I think David said to me recently, when I asked him, How's it going?

He said, hanging by a thread.

We're living through good times.

Esther.

Oh, yeah.

Buy my book.

Buy her dang book, Father.

Buy my dang book if you want to.

The links in the episode.

The link's in the episode description.

By this time,

I will have had a wonderful launch, hopefully, with David Sims moderating.

Where's that happening?

The strand.

I emailed you about it.

You got to check your email.

Ben also got it and

Ben acknowledged it.

It's on December 3rd.

And it'll be fun.

We're going to go drinking afterwards.

I have a response.

Okay, I'll SVP right now.

But yeah,

I am proud of that.

And

I think it's fun.

I think it's a fun, fun little read.

Is it the dumb question you've been asked a trillion times?

I've maybe asked you in the past

what you're, do you have a like sort of perfect rom-com in your mind?

Not even favorite.

I saw you're doing a Philadelphia story.

Yeah, that's my favorite.

That's, yeah.

That's my favorite.

I don't know.

Perfect is so hard.

Is there one that you just think is like, I mean, it might be Philadelphia's story, but it's.

i do think that movie is brilliant the sort of like ultimate example of what you like or want out of the genre roman holiday always ends up real high on my list really good movie um

sabrina always ends up really high on my list

um yeah we're both we're both horny for bogey actually and bill holdon too he's hot we yeah but bogey ah bogey in that sabrina mode you don't see it enough yeah i just never can process how short he was he's a little guy but he's one of those guys where just on screen it doesn't make sense and then you hear that he was like my size so those are i those are obviously obviously i think oh a great pick you know the nora is like when harry is pretty boring to pick but i do think he's pretty perfect pretty leopold kit and leopold someone like you raising howling yeah

i'm trying to think is there a third huge actman romcomb oh you just like the hughes yeah

x-men origins Wolverine?

Beautiful.

Him and Dominic Monahan.

Oh, there isn't, right?

Yeah, I mean, it's just so annoying where it was like, let's get this guy in some rom-coms.

They make Caitlin Pold, which Loki rocks someone like you, which is fairly anonymous.

And then they're kind of like, yeah, forget it.

Like, that era is over.

It's the thing we talk about a lot that he was like in the last generation where they were trying to do the conventional movie star track of like, we got to get you in one of each.

We got to build your audience piece by piece.

And then they were like, what if you're just Wolverine?

And then every 10.

and that's what I'm saying.

Like, it was basically like, if you do six Wolverines, for every six Wolverines, we let you do your own thing one time, and then Greg Schroman worked.

I just love the premise of a someone like you where Ashley Judd's like, Someone dump me, Greg Kinnear, fucking dump me.

And he Jackman plays a guy who's like, Well, men are pigs.

Yeah,

he's like, Men are pigs.

And she's like, Oh, you, I can't listen to you, handsomest person who ever lived.

And he's like, All right, I'll just sit over here.

And after a while, she's like, You want to fuck me?

And you're like, yay.

And then it's like, roll credit.

That's a Tony Goldwyn picture?

Yeah.

Pretty funny that it's a Tony Goldwin movie.

I don't really know why.

That movie is fine.

And then The Last Kiss, that movie with Braf is so fucking excrable that you were like, banish this man from filmmaking.

And then he just had like an incredible second wind as like.

a hunk once again.

As sort of hunk for mom.

I went to go see The Last Kiss in a movie theater because I was so excited about the new Zach Braff picture.

That really makes me feel like a piece of shit.

No, it was like his first big move post.

Oh, 100%.

It was

Zach has something to say.

It has his fingerprints all over it, like that Braf clearly was like, here's my iPod.

I'm doing the soundtrack for this movie and all that.

It's so bad.

Anyway, yeah, not a good movie, but there are a lot of good movies in my book,

which

has also some nice pictures.

Can we breastate?

I just fuck out of here, bro.

I've always liked this game, especially as now we're firmly in our 10th year of the podcast.

The Esther Zuckerman blank check cannon is,

I'm not going in order here, The Little Mermaid,

The Piano,

I'll Do Anything, Regular Musical Cut,

A Gone Girl,

Sugarland Express.

I feel like for a while

you guys saddled me with the bad movies.

You were forgetting the big one, my first one.

Well,

Aloha, which of course is about

the sky.

Am I forgetting another one?

We can't see the sky in here.

It's so dark.

I do think you've

won back the narrative.

I have.

You've now covered more good films than bad.

I know.

Next time you can give me a piece of shit.

Okay, you're going to get a fucking finger.

Yeah, next time you can give me a Tom Shadiak's worst movie.

No,

I'll refuse.

Just kidding, I'll be back.

Heaven Almighty.

Yeah, 2020.

Get on the art face.

No, you're welcome to give me a piece of shit next time.

They are fun.

I've had some real nice luck, though, doing some good ones.

You're one of the best.

Yeah, best Esther.

Good luck.

I don't mean that to sound sarcastic you are.

Yeah, you sounded like

Sugarland Express.

Great movie.

Next week, Jaws.

Never heard of it.

What's up with that one?

Yeah.

And just a pre-warning, that one's kind of more of a mini.

So we just didn't have much to say about it.

Who's on your Jaws?

Timothy.

Timothy Simons.

Aw, fun.

The great Tim Simons is back to talk about Jaws in What Is.

Definitely at least 20 minutes to talk about her text styles.

There's a lot of text talking.

But a lot of very on-topic conversation about the movie Jaws and What Is.

Jokes aside, a very long episode.

Yeah, it's long.

I don't know.

Fuck you.

Hey.

Not you, the listener.

You don't like it?

Listen to Talk Tua.

Let's see how long those are.

See how long those episodes are.

How much do you think she talks about Jaws per episode?

Is she complaining that we're talking too much about other shits?

I don't know.

I feel like she does about an hour.

Yeah.

I would guess she's maybe never seen a movie.

Well, she's seen like parts of movies.

Yeah.

And she's probably seen like the Lion King.

We're still waiting to hear back if he wants to do Empire of the Son.

Come on.

She's seen that.

You should have my dad on Empire of the Sun.

My dad fucking loves Empire of the Sun.

Yeah.

My dad loves Empire of the Sun.

Well, it's one of my my dad's faves.

It's between him and Haley Walsh.

Yeah.

Tell him to work on his favorite movie.

Okay.

I just typed in

Haley Walsh movie.

I typed in Talk Tua's favorite movie.

Yeah.

Like just calling her Talk Tua.

Which I should have called her something else.

And Google's AI, which to be clear, I don't think should exist, answered that her favorite movie is the jazz scene.

And I'm just trying to think of like this sort of thing.

Which one?

Which one?

Which one?

1927 one.

This sort of computer brain fart that would lead to it being like, I don't know, it's kind of just the first movie with talking in it would be the answer to that.

Does that

do a sound like jazz scatting?

What is the math they're doing?

Well, that's

talking.

Yes, I believe that's what it's called.

It wasn't like choosing between Neil Diamond and Al Joel.

Think of no more appropriate way to end this episode.

Thank you all for listening.

Please remember to write a review and and subscribe.

Tune in next week for Jaws, a very successful film.

Yep.

Big one.

Over on the Patreon, we're doing our Spielberg bonuses, covering a lot of his early short films and TV work.

And of course, most importantly, we are finally tackling the Jelly Trilogy as commentary.

And as always, from the bottom of my heart, I implore all of our listeners to spit on that thing.