No Country for Old Men with Leslye Headland

Blank Jack with Griffin and David

Blank Jack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect

All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Jack

What's the most you've ever lost in a podcast?

I don't know four hours or so

I'm teeing you up on that one Was that Count Dracula?

What is the most you've ever lost in a podcast?

Blah, blah, blah.

Colid.

Colid.

Colid.

Yeah, how do you do him?

Remember, that was the

trailer.

So much a hemp friend.

We are

the two friendos.

The two friendos.

All right, warm me up.

Warm me up.

There we go.

Griff's moving the skillet around.

Yes.

That scene is David slapping himself in in the face.

Every scene of, not just that scene, every scene of Anton Shiger talking to a random Texan who basically starts the conversation with nice weather we're having and ends with, am I looking into the face of Satan?

I agree with you.

It's so good.

Every one of those scenes is crack.

Yes.

But the convenience store is mega crack.

Of course.

That's the peak.

I could lock myself in a room and watch that scene on an endless loop every day for the rest of my life and I would be thrilled.

Oh, really?

I find that scene to be the most activating thing

in the world.

Well, why?

Why?

I mean, this is what we're here to dissect, perhaps.

Yeah, it feels like the perfect distillation of what this movie is doing.

So much of it is his performance.

The guy whose name I want to call out right off the bat.

Gene Jean.

My wife did a play with him.

Yeah.

He's kind of what Gene Jones.

Gene Jones.

And his character name is.

Gas Station Proprietor.

Hell yes.

And it's his first film credit.

That's what he did.

He's done a couple TV shows.

Yeah, really.

But it's his first film credit.

A lot of theater.

And then, yes, he has kept working.

He was

the lead of the Sacraments, right?

Yes, which I think he actually got like a,

you know, a golden chainsaw award or whatever you say.

He probably got that chainsaw.

Yeah, yeah.

I never saw that one.

That's the Ty West movie with Joe Swanberg.

Yes.

And it's a...

Wow, Joe Swanberg.

Wait, what did she say?

I said sounds normal.

Yeah, the Anton Sugur, the moment of course.

This movie.

I feel like the magic of the Sugur performance, right?

He's played by Javier Bardem in this film.

Are you sure about that?

That doesn't sound right.

Absolutely.

The Spanish actor.

I feel like I would have.

He's Javier Bardem and he won an Academy Awards.

He did win an Academy Awards.

Yes, he did.

Yes.

The magic of that characterization.

And as you said, every one of those scenes where he's face to face with someone who's just greeting him with

gentle charm.

Like

a human interaction.

Every single time, like, how's it going?

Like, what's the weather like?

Pleasantry.

Where are you going tonight?

You know, like, how's the day been so far, essentially?

I got to say, though, I kind of relate to not wanting to have small talk.

It's like,

do you think that's the driving force of this film?

For me, I think the battery of this film is just this guy being like, I'm not that.

I'm not that.

Yeah, I haven't been to the South that much, but I I do think if you hate small talk, you probably shouldn't go there, right?

Because I feel like that is part of the social contract.

Stay in the big means, cities.

Oh, yeah.

Right, right.

I feel like there's more chit-chat, aren't you?

Don't you think so?

I don't know.

I don't know if you're not from Texas because of the thin blue line.

I'm just not going.

But you're worried that you'll get thin blue lines?

Yeah.

You'll like go to a convenience store and then like your fucking duperless makes that.

That movie painted, and I was like, I'm never going to go.

It's like the SNL Jumanji sketch.

It's just, I'm not saying it's like overbearing.

I think it's just like there's a little bit more

high.

Yeah.

How's your day?

How's your fucking day?

It's also the thing that Tommy Lee Jones says.

That's not a read, by the way.

That's not a read.

There's the scene with Tommy Lee Jones where he's talking to the older cop and they're comparing notes and he's like, these kids with the bones in their noses and all this sort of green hair.

Right.

And Tommy Lee Jones is just like the second people stop saying like ma'am and sir, it was all slipping away.

Right.

And most of the people that Sugar is dealing with are older.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

And this feeling of like there is a sense of like polite civility

and a sort of like attempt to engage with all people with a good face that is perhaps like eroding in culture.

I think the gene scene is the longest one.

It is the most sustained.

It is such a perfect like kind of like rubber band pulled to its absolute breaking point.

Absolutely.

And then the bizarreness of rather than letting it snap, slowly putting it back.

into position, you know, the lack of release of tension in that scene in either direction direction is so bizarre.

But I also think he plays the fear of it so well.

Well, Javier did an interview where he said,

you know, that scene is really great because of Gene.

Yeah.

You know, he said, I'm just saying it.

And he's playing.

the fear and the nervousness and the terror.

He's an incredible listener.

He's not overplaying it.

He still wants to be,

I don't want to say gentlemanly.

Yeah.

But he's trying to treat this man with kindness with every answer as his fear is increasing yes yeah but he won't give that up he's not gonna be like what's your fucking get the fuck out of here

it is also he's trying to engage with him yeah it's very funny that he keeps being like you married into this and he's like kind of blank like not getting it he chokes on the sunflower seeds at the notion that he inherited a thing from his wife's dad and gene doesn't respond with any defensiveness he doesn't do like a well well well no he's like yeah if you want to put it that way right he goes there is no way to put it

and even just down to i think it's the final shot of the scene of sugar putting the sunflower seed the bag i love that shot on the crumples up and then it slowly uncrumples expands yeah it's the because it's the the tension yes and then the release right you know of just like we are so tense.

And actually, oddly, the release of that is like why you remember it because you're hoping for that.

Like, you're hoping that that's gonna.

But also, much like the bag, you release it and that's still just like a crumpled mess, right?

You don't go like, oh my God, you never see Gene again.

Nope.

Bye, Gene.

You're releasing that Gene didn't die, but you're also like, nothing has been solved here.

No, not at all.

And it's, in fact, almost scarier where you're like, this is so completely random and meaningless for him.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

That he throws the coin toss into it.

And it doesn't feel like an element of like perverse fun.

It's not like he's a fucking James Bond villain with a gimmick of the coin.

He's not Too-Face, right?

No, no, Too-Face.

No, no.

He's not gotten any joy from the idea of staking it all on that.

It just feels like this guy, right?

He's just, he's pure evil.

Yeah.

More, more evil.

This is what we need to break.

So with Toothface, Toothface.

Toothface.

Toothface is a new villain I'm pitching, which is a guy whose face is a Tooface.

Yeah.

Keep going.

Yeah.

Now with Too Face, not to get too deep into fucking comic book talk, right?

But it's like his,

his, he's so traumatized by what's like he is

cannot handle making any decision without flipping or something.

He needs fate to decide which

of his trauma responses.

But I think Anton Shigur is doing a little bit of that where he's like,

It's not all me.

No,

this is faded or not faded.

And like, I am merely an instrument of something I don't understand.

And that's why it's so important that Kelly McDonald's.

You're right.

It's interesting that you say you're saying it's the coin, but it is definitely not the coin.

Yeah, you is you, my friend.

It's interesting that you say instrument because so in the book, this is essentially word for word.

It's essentially word-for-word, this scene, including putting down the rapper.

It is funny that they won a screenplay Oscar for this because they have been so open about the fact where it's just a cut and paste.

Right.

It's like there's a line where they were like, uh, they chose our family.

One of us holds the book flat.

Yeah, and the other one cuts it out.

Right.

And they talk, then they talk about how much they consider

nothing.

As a big fan of this book,

they did a great job adapting.

And it's not transcription.

No, they didn't pass.

But the rest of the dialogue sections.

The dialogue is the same.

I wouldn't say cut and pass because there are many things.

One of the things they didn't include, and you don't need to because of the visuals, is anything can be an instrument.

Trigger said, small things, things you wouldn't even notice.

They pass from hand to hand.

People don't pay attention.

And then one day there's an accounting.

And after that, nothing is the same.

Well, you say it's just a coin.

For instance, nothing special there.

What could that be an instrument of?

You see the problem to separate the act from the thing as if the parts of some moment in history might be interchangeable with the parts of some other moment.

How could that be?

Well, it's just a coin.

Yes, that's true.

Is it?

So that's, I mean, beautiful writing, but also what a great underlining of the whole thing.

And also.

And also that the value of this movie is, as you just just said, they don't need that because they're able to convey that through repeated visuals.

Yes, to the visuals.

Yeah.

And the performance.

This movie came out in the very brief tenure in which I was attending film school before I dropped out and ruined my entire life or fixed it.

Unclear.

Right now,

you're doing very well.

Jury's still out.

Fucking film school.

Nobody ever learns anything at this point.

But this is the period of time where I'm just like, all I need to do all day is watch movies and break them down because I'm trying to figure out how to engineer engineer these things out.

That's work.

That's your work.

And this movie comes out that fall.

Yeah.

Basically in the one semester and change that I'm in film school and I'm in Valencia, California.

If there's an artsy movie I want to see or more limited release, I need a friend with a car to drive me to the fucking landmark or the Arclight or something.

Yes, yeah.

But no country is mainstream enough.

that it goes to the Valencia town center 16

and plays there for months.

And I saw this movie so many fucking times.

In the theater?

Yes.

And I just thought to see it, I'd just be like, this is the blueprint.

This is the best constructed movie I have ever seen.

I saw it so many times.

I hadn't watched it in quite a while because I was so obsessed with it in its year.

Yeah.

Where I was just, and, and I was just like, well, this is just the pinnacle of everything.

Yeah.

And I watch it now and I'm like, I don't know where I'm going to rank it in their filmography.

There's definitely a ton I put above this.

I don't think it's their best movie, but it might be one of the best best-made films ever.

It is just so perfectly made.

Yeah, I saw it three times in the theater.

It's a lot.

Yeah.

I saw it once or twice.

And I've seen it several times since then.

It's a movie I admire.

It's a book I love.

And it's an author I love.

I do love Cormac McCarthy.

Perhaps it's a little fucking, you know, boring of me.

Why would it be boring?

I feel like so many 20-something boys have a Cormac McCarthy face, right?

Maybe not.

Maybe, maybe I'm being too rude.

You're kind of built like the description from Blood Meridian.

I was going to say, I do think there's like Blood Meridian as like a gateway drub to something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know what, but love.

him

and I love how he clearly how he behaved his whole life totally normal.

I love that.

No, but I do.

Well adjusted.

And he's one of those guys who his books, I mean, the border trilogy, this, all the pretty Horses and The Crossing, and those books are my favorite.

And they will just, once every two or three pages, just have a moment, have some line where you're just like, that's the best thing I ever written.

Yes.

Like, that's the most incredible, beautiful

evocation of like.

light going through a fucking window that I've ever seen.

And you put the book down and you just soak it in.

And that's why I do feel like he's hard to put on film.

And they did such an incredible job putting him on film.

Yeah.

And so that's what I

love about this movie the most.

This movie.

And we haven't even introduced this podcast yet.

No, and I'm going to do it in a second, but this movie, watching it, I feel the way you just described reading Cormac McCarthy books, where like every three minutes there's something that happens where I'm like, that's just, that's the greatest visual storytelling I've ever seen.

Yes.

That's the greatest evocation of a feeling.

I agree.

A moment, a communication of an idea.

I agree.

Whether it's thematic or plot.

This podcast.

is called Blank Check with Griffin and David.

I'm Griffin.

I'm David.

We're the two friendos, and it's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want.

And sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes they bounce friendo.

I'm just going to keep saying friendo.

This is a mini-series on the films of Joel and Ethan Cohn.

Today we are talking about the titular film in our series.

Pod Country for Old Casts.

Oh, the titular.

Yes.

Yeah.

It is.

The Pount Country for Old Men is the film.

The pinnacle of their career within the industry.

certainly like within the arc of their career.

Agree.

It's interesting.

It is both a pinnacle and a comeback.

Yes, it is a comeback.

That's right.

Because Lady Killers is right before that.

And Intel Cruelty is right before that.

It's sort of them.

It's them as, look, when you two released All That You Can't Leave Behind.

We talk about this whole thing.

Hey, Dune.

You're interested in me talking about this right now?

Sorry.

Anytime I bring up YouTube.

Ben is holding

a cattle gun to his head.

They had just, they had made Zuropa and they had made Pop.

And they were kind of coin.

You know, they were a little down, and they were like, We're auditioning, we're re-auditioning for the role of like best rock band, sure, yeah, sure.

And this is the Cohens being like, We're re-auditioning for like the best directors working.

This is the other thing I was thinking about, how did it work out for you, too?

I don't know, millions of records sold, biggest tours ever, one fucking Grammy, but they never got Ben's respect,

the ultimate crisis.

I was thinking within the same year, this is very similar to the moment of Spielberg going from 1941 to Raiders of the Lost Ark.

That's interesting.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Which in that episode, I said, was like kind of one of the greatest comeback moments

in Hollywood history.

Not moments because

his cold streak was not sustained.

No, no.

But it was a real, like, we're ready to knock this guy down to size.

Yes.

And he just kind of like pulled himself up and was like, I got to make something just like kind of so lean and focused and undeniable.

Right.

And this feels similar to that where I'm like, I don't don't care.

It's a reform Spielberg's body.

Nail it.

His best made film.

Yeah.

Like he's just like, I just got to make myself undeniable here.

Sure.

Yeah.

I mean, of course, the Cohns are just going to be like, no, we like the book.

I mean, I'll look at it with the films.

They never talk about that strategy.

Yeah, they're not like, we needed to fucking punch Hollywood in the face and knock everyone's teeth out.

They talk about a deeply normal man, Scott Rudin, begging them to do it.

And then being like, I don't know.

Who's going to dab Cormac McCarthy?

Right.

But this also comes in a three-year gap after Lady Killers.

There was this feeling of like, are they just cooked?

Yeah.

Where did they go?

And we were saying

right before we recorded the great Leslie Headlands.

Returning to the show.

Hey, Leslie.

Podcast.

The Acolyte, a Bachelor.

Leslie Nation Rise Up.

Cult of Love.

Recently.

Cult of Love recently on Broadway.

Broadway girl.

Soon to be a film.

Yeah.

In front of cameras.

A movie.

Soon to be in front of cameras.

Yeah.

Adaptation.

We'll see what happens.

It's certainly not going to be this.

But we were saying, like,

you said, how has the series been going?

And I said, great.

Every one of these movies is a delight to rewatch.

Every night when I'm like, oh, that was what I was wondering.

I got to watch a Cohen movie tonight.

I'm just always thrilled.

Yeah, you're thrilled.

Always thrilled.

Yeah.

For different reasons.

Yeah.

Because it might be just a disaster.

And then it might be, yeah, one of the greatest film adaptations ever.

Yeah.

But also as we've been tracking the critical response of these movies,

it was like there was such a skepticism about them that it's sort of squashed by Fargo.

And then right after Fargo, everyone's like, fuck, no, we were right.

Yeah.

And then there's a feeling of getting twice as angry as them.

And then from this movie on, everyone was like, I guess they're undeniable.

It did feel like they, they so completely won the argument.

I think it was so interesting, too, that like one, two punch of Fargo, we, you know, exactly what you said.

Lebowski, which at the time, everybody.

People were

furious and it's just so funny that that's the film that is culturally

absolutely I mean of course Fargo is but Lebowski has completely surpassed it in that sense will be the movie in their obituary yeah unquestionably right they will never make something that has a bigger cultural impact that's what it is yeah is it a is it their best movie no like not at all but yeah But there's no, although you know what?

I asked my assistant.

I have an assistant.

I asked her, like I quoted the movie and she was like, you know, she's my assistant.

So she's like, uh-huh.

And,

and I said, well, you know, have you, have you seen the big Lebowski?

And she was like, I mean,

I've heard of it.

Yeah.

It's not necessarily a next generation watch.

But this is

your assistant.

She's late 20s.

Okay.

Yeah.

Because my sister's 27 and I'm also wondering now that she maybe never seen Lebowski.

But she knows it.

Like she understands.

My sister definitely does.

There's something in the world.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

It is just kind of universal shorthand.

Yeah.

There is sometimes a question our listeners love to throw out of like sometimes a buggy.

There's sometimes a buggy.

I'm invoking Mohaw and Drive, which was the last time.

Well, this is what I was going to say, David.

Who, what guest has had the best run of movies?

Mine.

You are a relatively recent addition to our regular guest canon, but you have exclusively covered three of the most important American films the last 25 years.

Not only that, but three films that are sort of like seen by many as the best of any

conversation.

I've honored him.

I can't believe it happened this time.

You're out of control is what I'm trying to say.

Next time,

you're getting dull.

Exactly.

Yeah, please get me the

bowl of diarrhea.

I was thinking, like, first of all, I was thinking that and like how honored and excited and like blessed I feel.

Thank you all so much, Thrawn, for

boosting up my ego.

But I also thought how similar those three movies are in terms of, especially in terms of structure.

Like you're just, again, you're like, wait, which scene is coming next?

Like

there's this world that you live in rather than

absolute straight line.

Absolute straight line.

Like I was buying a book at a bookstore.

I was getting a Cohen Brothers book and they and the lady was like, oh, this is, you know, so many, blah, blah, blah.

And I said, oh, I'm doing this podcast about no country for old men.

And I previously did Zodiac and

Mulholland Drive.

And she said, oh, those are really interesting movies about time.

This is true.

Zodiac, very much so.

Obviously, Mulholland Drive.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

And also, not to be reductive, but I think all three movies at their core are about touching the membrane of like absolute darkness, right?

That's true.

And this feeling of like,

can you make it through the other side?

What's the other side of the coin in inviting me?

Right.

You know, is that

I get to do the best movies, but also the flip side of the coin is.

You're here for the darkest shit.

I also think that you and I are similar.

It's interesting.

Look, your friend Zach Kreger, who we had on the Fargo episode.

Yeah.

The two of you got engaged in your own con toss.

We did.

Trying to pick between those two episodes.

And you were going back and forth.

And we said, look, we're going to win either way.

However, this lands, we're happy to have either of you on either one.

Yeah.

Figure it out amongst you.

And we, we, we hooked up and, you know, connected.

And he said, you know, I'd really love to do Fargo.

Cause I kind of went like, oh, Fargo's available.

Let's do it.

And then he, you know, he said, hey, you know, I really want to do Fargo.

I have this personal connection to it.

I love the film.

And clearly he's a filmmaker.

And I said, yeah, man, I just thought you'd want to do no country.

Yeah.

I just wanted to give you that because it's there, you know, it's, it's everything that you're saying.

It may not be the best film.

I think we can talk about why it's a superlative, very influential in their being taken seriously, best picture, etc.

And he really was like, Oh, do you think that?

You know, not in a derogatory way, but he certainly was like, Oh, I would consider Fargo.

Like, that's the one that I would lean towards.

It worked out because that episode comes out close to the release of his film, and that's fun.

Oh, that's good.

Everything worked out.

But when you were texting with us about it, you were like,

I mean, does it make more sense for me to do Fargo, like female protagonists?

Yes, that's the sort of like black humor.

Yeah.

Right.

Versus like, is Zach's scene as a little more highbrow and thrillery and sparse?

And you were sort of like talking over the sides of it.

Yeah.

What I was going to say, I think you and I are similar in this respect is like

this feeling of

constantly thinking about the absolute worst things in the world.

And like you need to combat that with some sense of humor.

Yeah.

That is

avoidance.

Yeah.

That is like trying to push through it, which is a thing I think the Coans do really well.

Yeah.

I think all three of the movies you've covered are funny in bizarre ways.

In certain ways, yeah.

I think this movie is very funny in bizarre ways.

Yeah.

I think like Fargo is more explicitly funny and has the sense of like, we are going to place goodness at the center of this.

We're going to remind you that it exists in a very pure way.

Yeah, I agree.

And I think that when I was thinking of the three of them, and then I am curious, your guys feeling like the Fargo versus this movie.

But like, very quickly, I was thinking about the three of those movies and how, like, in a personal way, yeah, there was just this like delving into darkness and the, the, you know, at the times that those films came out.

Like, yes, I said on Zodiac that like, you know, I watched it every day for a while because I was so depressed.

And then it's comforting.

It's very comforting.

And, and, um, Mulholland Drive, like I said,

you know, uh, lesbian working in Hollywood with suicide ideation.

That's me.

I totally relate with that.

What's interesting is that I couldn't really figure out why this movie hit me so hard.

So I'm excited to talk about it.

Yeah.

I don't know how, why it hit me so hard at the time and why it hit me so hard re-watching it.

I think that was part of it for me in this non-conspiratorial way, because I like that the movie doesn't create some insane interconnected web of stuff, right?

Like to a certain degree, the events of this movie are kind of meaningless.

Yes.

In a way they love.

Yes.

The events of this movie revolve around things that are really not our business.

Right.

Yes.

And like Llewellyn, the only sort of quote-unquote kind of, you know, normal guy in his life.

Yeah.

He just shouldn't have gotten involved in this business.

Now, Ben's about to say if he stumbled across a friend,

he would have escaped scot-free with no issues whatsoever.

I'd be sibbing on a Mai Tai somewhere for sure.

But it's been interesting in the episodes we've done leading up to this.

And when no country gets invoked, several different guests have gone.

It just always drives me crazy that he goes back and gives the water.

That makes zero.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I was like, when I was re-watching it, my wife was like, so stupid.

Bring it up as such an urgent, like, I still haven't gotten over this.

As if it's like the kind of slam against a horror movie of, why would he go in there?

That's so dumb, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

But I think it's like the core of the movie is why it is so effective and maddening is you're like, the guy is basically doing the save the cat thing and it ruins his entire life.

Yeah.

Right.

Well, it's also like the, the, the, what he, what Sugar says to Woody Harrelson.

Yeah.

If the rule that brought you here, it's like, if, if the rule that brought you here, what what use was the rule?

Yes.

Right.

So the rule of you bring water to a dying man.

Yes.

You know what I mean?

What was the use of that?

After everything that comes after it.

As you said, David, he never should have been there.

He shouldn't have gotten into this, right?

Yeah.

But of course, he would have been in a better place if he actually just took the money and ran.

And the fact that he goes back and does the moral thing to, in his mind, kind of balance it

fucks him to a far deeper degree.

In a very intense way.

Well, it's you sort of, but also he should have just looked in the bag.

There's a fucking tracker in the bag.

Get it out, bro.

Okay, can I just let it out?

Clever about the carve-out.

He's clever too, though.

He's, you know, he's supposedly, he has clever moments.

Because I don't want to make it seem like I wouldn't, like, I have humanity.

I would feel for this person.

You're a deeply moral man.

Yeah, I would have empathy.

So what I would have done is grabbed a cactus.

Because, you know, they're full of water.

And I was going to say they're only

easy to grab.

They're grabbable.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, you know, I would get like, I would.

Ben is making hands move.

I would make it happen.

Also, famously easy to do.

Yeah, I was going to say, like, what?

is happening?

And then once I've now got the bag back home, here's the thing I would definitely do.

You go go through every bit.

I would dump it out on the bed because I want to roll around in that friggin' money.

You're not even dumping it out to sort of take a closer look.

You're like, I need to Scrooge McDucket right away.

And in doing that, you would end up discovering the track.

Not because you're that smart, but because your instincts are that kind of in tune with that.

I want to throw it up in the air.

I want to make it rain.

Yeah.

And would maybe make it work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think similarly, like

spoilers for no country for old men.

Yeah.

But like the most fascinating thing this movie does and the thing the Cohen brothers said was the thing that made them ultimately decide, fuck, we should adapt this.

Yeah.

Is the feeling of this kind of wrong-footed thriller where the lead characters never meet each other.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

And it all ultimately feels a little meaningless.

A movie that seems to promise a showdown and the showdown never really is.

It feels like it's all building towards these three characters ending up in a good, the bad, and the ugly style standoff.

Yes.

Yeah.

And instead, and I, you know, as someone who just kept seeing this in the suburbs of Valencia

and would just feel the audience go like, what do you mean he's dead?

The moment you cut to Josh Brolin on the floor and there's this feeling of like, there must be a misunderstanding.

He's, he's pulling a Hannibal lick or someone else is wearing his face.

Whatever it is, there's no way the movie has just and it's got 30 minutes left to go.

It's such a weird.

Shot as well.

It's really in a place where you can't quite see his face.

The angle is the angle is wild.

You're like under his jaw.

And then it's not really until Tommy Lee Jones takes off his hat and Kelly McDonald cries that you're like, I guess,

I guess that was him.

I guess it's real.

Yeah.

But the moment before it's

what I'm saying is like, there's no veneration.

No, of course.

Yeah.

There's, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

He has to get a hero's death.

And it's, you get this slow fade out.

And then the next thing you see is the police arriving, right?

Yeah.

And the dissolve comes after a woman sitting by the side of the pool, promising him beer,

hitting on him.

Yeah.

And he keeps going, like, my wife is coming.

Yeah.

I'm a married man.

I don't want to.

Yeah.

And you're like, you keep wondering, is this a morality test that he's going to slip?

Yeah.

And in the universe of this movie, that is what causes his death.

That's a good point.

Like, not that she's a temptress, a siren of evil or whatever, but that it's a sense of did this guy.

Right.

But, but is it like, is it like the water where he's punished for the good thing?

Perhaps he turns her down.

Do you know what I I mean?

Like, and punished for that.

In the book, obviously, that character is more major.

She is.

She's like a runaway.

Yes.

They have a whole long section that all gets cut.

Yeah.

But no, his, his, no, it's his grandma, his, sorry, mother-in-law is the one who gets him killed, too.

She gives him away.

Yeah.

She gives him away.

He shouldn't have called his wife.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

He, look, his biggest mistake is he stays in a fucking motel.

Stay in a hotel with a desk, a concierge that, like, assassins can't just knock on your fucking door.

Like, you just want, like, one land

for people to get forward.

That's a very good call.

Instead, he's like, What's your cheapest motel?

I'm like, you have a bag of money.

Yeah, you can spring for a presidential suite.

Yeah.

I get the idea of like, I don't want anyone seeing me.

I don't want CCTV, whatever.

Slug with the AC vent is clever.

That's the thing where I'm like, you're kind of smart.

Yes.

Yeah.

You know, but what's so smart?

And when he's looking at the, sorry, when he's looking looking at the, um, uh, you know, the guy underneath the tree, you know, the way that he waits, the way that the time is expressed to us via the wristwatch, like, yes, you get a sense of like, oh, this guy was in NOM.

Like, you get it.

Like, you get that this is somebody that does have some sort of

street smarts.

Right.

But then exactly what you're saying, David, it's like, then he makes choices that you're like, I'm so sorry.

What?

Because he's not that.

He doesn't belong in this movie.

He's not that good at this stuff.

Exactly.

He's dealing with an entirely different league of person.

But to your point, it's like, I think, especially by cutting out all that backstory of that character, right?

Yes,

it's better to a moment of a choice.

Yeah.

And that choice doesn't gain him anything in the same way that doing the kind thing to the dying man doesn't gain him anything.

I want to open the dose game.

Please do.

In a second.

But I do want to note.

Read what all you guys are saying.

That's why I was, on the one hand, mildly surprised that in the year of 2007, a big year for movies, zodiac among them yes yeah this one best picture and one best picture over there will be blood which is kind of like a magnum opus from pta obviously michael clayton what were the other big 2007

and atonement were the five nominees yeah is yeah yeah atonement got best picture but then julian schnaubel got the joe right slot in director

David is miming um praise applause taking a bow oh no he's jerking off a giant dick yeah what's the giant dick about

I don't like Julian Schumbl.

I don't like Julian Schaubble.

I like that movie a tremendous amount.

That is an ultimate onion, heartbreaking.

The worst guy you know just made a good point movie for me.

And I'm like,

she did kind of do this one.

Yeah.

Although I give more credit for that.

Broken Clock is right.

This movie is obviously incredibly compelling and well-made, but it is not satisfying, as you're saying, in the sort of, you know, maybe traditional Hollywood-y, Western way you might expect.

Yeah.

And so it is sort of surprising that one best picture.

You watch There Will Be Blood, which has Daniel Day-Lewis screaming, I abandoned my boy.

It's not like There Will Be Blood is like an easy movie,

but you watch it and you are like, this is the kind of thing you would think like would kind of triumph.

It's so epic.

It's so, the acting is so big, like in all this.

And I just remember when this movie came out, and I feel this way to this day.

I have never seen a film be as well received as this film.

Yes.

And since then, lots of movies have come out to praise.

You know, I remember when the reviews came out for this, I was like, I think this is essentially getting a 100 from everybody.

Wait, I'm sorry.

No country for old men.

You're saying that forever?

Like in all since opportunity?

Since you've never seen a film as well received no one questioned.

And I don't think people really remember how well this movie went over.

And I think there was a bit of

this and there will be blood were very much pitted against each other.

There will be blood's an amazing movie, but like there were some people that were, it was a little more divisive.

That would be me.

Yeah.

But Leslie Leslie Wade in.

She said, what a piece of shit.

I just think

poop was your review.

Sound off in the comments.

Yeah.

No, I was a little colder on that movie at the time, and I have grown to like it more.

But

I do agree with you that.

These two films were pit against each other.

There was weird synchronicity between them.

They were both.

They were set in the same place.

They were shot.

They were both

simultaneously.

But in the same place, they were shot.

No, no, no.

And they were shot at the same time.

Yeah.

Like they talk about that the crews were having to avoid each other.

Like to like negotiate who got what location when.

That's wild.

And they were both like American auteurs who had kind of disappeared.

And it was like, what are these guys doing?

And it was seen as this sort of like,

here's the next chapter.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

But you're right that this movie is bizarre in how sort of bracing and unsparing and

like deliberately unsatisfying it is.

And yet it ended up being the sort of like more populist pick, I think,

relative to There Will Be Blood, which was seen as almost more

denialistic.

Yeah,

there will be blood, somewhat punishing.

Yes.

And, but, and just when you just think about it, it's like, right, how does this movie end?

Llewellyn Moss gets shot by unrelated Mexican gangsters off-screen.

Then Tommy Lee Jones spends two miles.

Tommy Lee Jones is like, I'm having this dream, and generally I'm kind of bummed up by the world.

Yeah.

The end.

But there's a lot of people.

And Anton Sugar gets hit by a car, and he's like,

oh, Jesus, that hurt.

And you're like, and that's it.

And you're like, does the car kill him?

No, he limps away.

No, he's in pain.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you're like, okay.

What were you going to say, Leslie?

Well, I was like, I like all those endings, to be clear.

I think they're great.

Same, same.

Yeah.

David's eating a hot dog in a croissant.

A collachi.

Okay.

I was curious when you finished eating, David.

Why do you think this was sort of universally acclaimed, especially because you're claiming that it's, you know, 100% and then since 2007?

There's been nothing like it.

I mean,

I think partly there was this vibe of like, the Cohens are back.

Thank God.

Yeah.

Thank God.

You know, it's basically been since Fargo.

Yeah.

Every single thing they've made since Fargo, people

had been hot and cold on.

Like even your Lebowskis or your O-Brothers, you know, those movies had more fans, but at the time, both got the the reaction of like,

this, this kind of goofy thing is what they want to do.

Yeah, they'd been in such a goofy mode, and then they're just like, uh, we just made the most like psychotic, cold-blooded like crime thriller you ever saw.

Yeah, that's also shot through with like Tommy Lee Jones' furrowed brow about what has happened to this, you know, world that we live in.

And people were just like, I've never been so electrified.

That's how I felt.

Right.

It's like a Swiss watch construction film that is still somehow explicitly built around themes and ideas, you know.

And this is right before Obama.

Yeah.

This is right before.

So we're all kind of worn out.

Yes,

we're kind of worn out.

What were like the four best pictures leading up to that?

That's a great question.

So 2006 was Departed.

Yikes.

Right.

2000 and 2005

was

Crash.

Crash.

Jesus Christ.

Yeah.

2004 was Million Dollar Baby.

Which is a great movie.

Baby boob.

And 2003 was Return of the King.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

And then what, then Chicago.

Yeah, so it all feels like very gladiator.

Sorry, but it's all very like kind of genre-y.

Yep.

You know, like it's not, the crash win is just so sort of bizarre.

Everyone's, I mean, from, I think the people who want, I mean, I think Paul Haggis was like, sorry, what?

Like, I mean, you know, Brokeback was really, you know, seen as the front runner until, you know, gay people happened.

It is absolutely a

a defensive best picture win yeah it's a yeah and then departed is kind of like this afterthought win for scorsese and we've made 17 000 better movies than that right right exactly and that was even the line at the time of like is it a little silly that we're going to give it to him for this yes yet they were like it's kind of a weak year this movie was a big hit why not this year right right versus this film being seen as like is this the con brothers towering achievement is it their magnum opus and i think it was i think david's right the fact that there was this feeling of comeback, the fact that the movie is sort of just like

so clean and undeniable in its craft.

It's also a throat slit of a movie.

It is.

Like it is not, it's not an issue.

It is like, I mean, we're like, hey, departed.

And, you know, of course, very violent.

Yes.

You know, but also very mainstream.

You know, like, so incredibly funny and like

Wahlberg, Wahlberg handles it at the end.

You know what I mean?

Like, he handles it.

So it's not like as nihilistic as the quote ending of that movie is we still get the guy at the end shoots the other guy i find this movie very comforting but it is the kind of movie where i usually am on that island and other people are like what the fuck are you talking about why do you want to live in that headspace yes right yeah and like Mulholland Drive was wildly acclaimed, but was also like for a certain type of person.

Yes.

There were like big flashing warning signs above that movie of like, hey, if you don't love David Lynch, you're probably not going to like this.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

And Zodiac was like not totally ready.

If you don't like Steven Lyncher, you're not going to like this.

And this is him going like very procedural and it's really dark, right?

But in a way, without the stylization and the pulp of something like Seven.

Yeah.

And this movie, everyone's just like, yeah, kind of undeniable.

And I also think it's interesting that 2007 was such a humongous fucking movie year and one that we keep pointing back.

to is like, was that the last time we were just kind of firing on all cylinders?

Wait, can I say something about there will be blood that I just thought of when you were saying that?

I wonder if the there will be blood thing is that it's so arm's length.

I think so.

You know, I mean, it's incredible performances, but in a weird way, you're sort of just watching them.

You're not.

It's not a character study about a man you cannot understand.

Exactly.

Like, no one is an enemy.

He wants oil.

Well, if you say he's an oil man, I would agree.

I would be interested to challenge anyone to say, did you empathize or

maybe not even empathize, but did you recognize or empathize the journey of that character?

And I think 70 to 80 to 90 percent of the people would be like, no, he was just an asshole.

And it was an interesting character study because of that.

He's a faud guy.

Yeah.

I'll allow that.

But I don't think that you're, I don't think you leave that movie being like

Citizen Kane, right?

You don't leave that movie going, oh, that guy, you know, at least I didn't.

I remember that movie first screening and some people going that might be the best movie ever made like there were those people and then there were also people who were just like I don't fucking get it and there were people you were never gonna get to sit down and watch it right and there's something about this even though it is purposefully withholding the kind of denouement you want out of a movie like this yeah I just think there was something about being like a guy finds a bag of money that he shouldn't have and someone's chasing him.

That's exactly right.

And the film is so like to the bone, as much as it is throat slit.

There's like a framework of it that is so recognizable.

Yeah.

That helps people recognize what it's doing well.

What's it called?

Kalachi.

A colachi?

Yes, it's a Czech thing, I think, but it's very popular in Texas in the South.

Shout out my Kalachi eaters on this podcast.

I'm sure there's a few.

It's basically just like a savory

sort of pastry thing.

With a hot dog in it?

Sometimes it has a hot dog.

Yours did, didn't I?

Yeah, it sure did.

Are you just eating it?

Yeah.

But sometimes, you know, you could put like eggs in there or jalapenos or.

But they do sweet ones as well.

They have sweet ones as well.

Very nice.

Brooklyn Kolachi Company, DeKalbin, Bedford.

Anyone wants to go there?

I go there all the time.

Yeah, I just think there's something to the sturdiness of the genre setup of this movie.

I agree.

And I think that like...

In the 2007 of it all,

we're kind of all over it.

I mean, my favorite, my second favorite president, sorry, Donald's with us now, of course.

But at the time, my favorite president, he was just winding down.

I'm sorry, your first favorite president is George W.

Bush.

Donald 45.

Your second favorite is Donald 47.

Okay, you're right.

Okay.

But

my favorite president at the time was winding down a second perfect term with no issues whatsoever.

Mission accomplished.

Every mission had been accomplished.

No, you're right.

There's a lot of people.

It's crazy how quickly we solved that one.

It's an interesting era because it's like it's a year before the recession where all the chickens have come home to roost.

Yes, right, right, right.

You know, so it's like the country is ostensibly like in like okay shape, I guess, but like everyone's just already like, nah, man, like the milk is spoiled.

Like we suck.

This has been years of us sucking.

It's the guy at the in the wheelchair at the end.

Like it's like, can't stop what's coming.

Right.

You know, it's like, in a way, it's foreshadowing what we all already know.

Yeah.

We're like, Jesus, we've just been like hearing about the fucking Iraq war and Katrina and like

all this shit.

This wins, it is anointed, but yet you step back and look at 2007, which is studied as a year of just like, we got everything, right?

Yes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The slate of the great movies of 2007 do not all reflect that feeling.

It is not a year you look at where you're like, there's something in the air,

and it's being expressed in all these movies in different ways.

Right.

That's such a good year for movies.

Yes, but I'm like, Zodiac and there will be blood and no country are on a spectrum.

But then you're like, Atonement and Juno are in best picture.

Michael Clayton is a little closer to that earlier batch.

Michael Clayton feels like the departed of that year.

Yes.

You know?

But also is very much like that.

We've got to keep our money on the corporations.

They might not have our best interests.

They have our best interests.

I believe you would say that.

Just raising the question.

Ratatouille.

Yeah, Ratatouille's about the corporations.

You got to watch out for those guys.

Yeah.

No, I don't.

David, what?

This episode of Blank Check with Griffin, David, a podcast about philamographies is brought to you by Booking.com.

Booking.

Yeah.

I mean, that's what I was about to say.

Booking.

Yeah.

From vacation rentals to hotels across the U.S., Booking.com

has the ideal stay for anyone, even those who might seem impossible to please.

God, I'm trying to think of anyone in my life.

Perhaps even in this room.

Ben, who's like, what's an example of someone I know who maybe has a very particular set of demands?

Bringing me in and there's only one other person in the room.

There's one other person in the room right now.

This is so rude.

I sleep easy.

I'm definitely not someone who insists on 800 thread count sheets.

No.

That's an example of a fussy person.

Look, people have different demands.

And you know what?

If you're traveling, that's your time to start making demands.

You know, you've got...

a partner who's sleep light, rise early, or maybe, you know, like you just want someone who wants a pool or wants a view, or I don't know, any kind of demand.

And I need a room with some good soundproofing because I'm going to be doing some remote pod record.

Sure.

Maybe you're in Europe and you want to make sure that's very demanding to be in Europe.

You got air conditioning.

Well,

think of one person in particular, although it's really both of you.

Yes.

You got to have air conditioning.

I need air conditioning if I'm in the North Pole.

Look, if I can find my perfect stay on Booking.com, anyone can booking.com is definitely the easiest way to find exactly what you're looking for like for me a non-negotiable is i need a gorgeous bathroom for selfies you do you love selfies as long as i got a good bathroom mirror for selfies i'm happy with everything else uh look they're again they they're specifying like oh maybe you want a sauna or a hot tub and i'm like sounds good to me yeah please Can I check that button?

You want one of those in the recording student?

That'd be great.

You want to start, you want to be I'll be in the sauna when we record.

I was going to say, you want to be the Dalton Trumbull of podcast.

You want to be Splish Splash.

It would not be good if I had a sauna and a cold plunge and while recording, I'm on mic, but you just go back.

Like, ah!

Like, as I move to the

bathroom.

These are the kinds of demands that booking.com booking.

Yeah.

Yes.

You can find exactly what you're booking for.

Booking.com.

Booking.

Yeah.

Booking.com.

Book today on the site or in the ad.

Booking.com.

Booking.

Yeah.

All right.

I'm opening the Daws here.

Okay, in the late 1980s, Cormac McCarthy, normal guy.

Yeah.

Started working on a screenplay.

Chill dude.

Chill dude from minute one.

Started working on a screenplay.

I mean, God, like the whole thing where his first wife.

married him when he had no fucking money and they lived in like a shack with no electricity or whatever.

And he was like, you have to go make money because I'm writing my books.

Yeah.

Normal guy.

Yeah.

And like,

he fucking got away with a lot of shit just by writing masterpieces that app, you know, like, but there's other guys who probably do that and they write unreadable shit.

It also took, it took quite a bit of time.

It took him a long time, I think, for to get noticed.

Like his books, even his early books are very good.

Like he's a very interesting writer.

But like, yes, it took him a minute to know.

Can you just imagine this guy with this headspace being unsuccessful?

Just not going to eat a lot of beef.

I'm like, I've got to make this fucking work.

So in the 80s, he starts writing a screenplay called No Country for Old Men.

He couldn't find any funding for it, and he puts it on the shelf.

In 2005, of course.

Oh, before writing the novel.

Long before.

Oh, so he originally was like, this is a movie.

That is why that novel is so goddamn readable.

Some of his novels are pretty tough to crack.

And it is so dialogue heavy.

It's a little more propulsive and plotty or whatever.

And you can find, if you go to Texas State University, where I think like all his fucking documents are, you know, a lot of fragments of this screenplay or whatever.

But he eventually turns it into a book, comes out in 2005, and

the reviews even note, like, this feels like a Cohen brothers movie.

You know what I mean?

Like, they're also like, oh, but in general, like, oh, it's quite cinematic, and like, I can see its origins or whatever.

When does The Road come out?

It's right before Red.

The Road is right after.

Okay.

And so the whole thing with McCormick McCarthy is in 2005, when he releases No Country for Old Men, he is a major novelist.

But one year later, he releases The Road and becomes basically like a celebrity and one of the most famous writers of life.

It is kind of his No Country, the movie moment where everyone's like, okay, we all agree.

Yeah, well, it's a back to the present of literature.

And he suddenly is like, he's getting dragged onto Oprah and he's like a guy who's never done any fucking press.

And he's, but like, it's like he cannot avoid the phenomenon that that book is.

Yeah.

Well, and just him becoming a late-in-life parent and being like, oh my God, it's a Cormac McCarthy novel with

surface-level emotion.

Such a bout two people walking down a road.

And it's a post-apocalyptic book and it's about a father and son.

It's so easy to get your hands on.

That's exactly right.

Son of it made him an Oprah book club guy for the first time because it's like Oprah can't be like, look, I like this, but this might freak you guys out.

The road has that quarter.

I mean, The Road, phenomenal book.

Yeah.

Phenomenal.

It is.

It's very good.

It is not my favorite by far, but it's very, very readable.

Anyway, Scott Rudin, normal guy.

Normal guy.

Okay.

Normal.

Yeah.

Gets the rights to this book, I think, before it even releases.

And he...

As he was wont to do.

Yeah.

Basically, at this era, it's just like a fucking vacuum cleaner

for any kind of buzzy manuscript.

Yeah.

He has been working with the Cohen since Raising Arizona.

He was oversaw production at the age of 28 on that movie.

And

this, but this is the first time that he is the producer, the lead producer of a film of theirs.

And he does their next three, I want to say.

That sounds

burn after reading and true grit.

Yes.

Does he not do Lewin Davis?

No, I think not.

Okay, let me double check.

Certainly True Grit.

No, he didn't do Burn.

I want to get this right.

He did, but he.

He did do Grit.

We talked about it.

No, he definitely does Grit.

Yeah.

I just can't remember what the third thing he does is.

It is Lewin.

So those are the three movies he worked with them on.

Yeah.

He gets them to commit to writing.

He's hoping he can convince them to do that.

This is their first adaptation, right?

Yes.

I mean, you could call O'Brother an adaptation of sorts because it's the Odyssey, but they would say they never even opened the Odyssey.

But when they win best screenplay, Joel makes the joke of the only two authors we've ever adapted are Homer and Cormac McCarthy, which feels right.

Which feels right.

Just very quickly, the Lady Killers is also an adaptation, I will say.

Oh, that's the movie.

Remake.

Remake.

Yeah.

That's true.

That's true.

I just think it's interesting the sort of like forethought of normal guy scott rudin um to approach the cohen brothers when they don't really adapt you know there's a lot of the appeal of their films is their language yeah and how funny they are and and tone and you know come you know um commanding performances that are based on their scripts yes here are a couple things at play though one is scott rudin Rudin is so fucking hungry to win an Oscar.

This is the movie that finally gets him best picture.

Right, right.

And it felt like he had been running his entire life to get to that moment on stage.

Yes.

And he gets on stage and goes, oh my God, what a surprise.

And I'm just like, my guy,

you've been giving this speech in your bathroom mirror.

Yes, for a while.

Every day of your life.

And as David said, this movie has been on like a golden run from the moment it premiered at Cannes.

But it was a tough year.

I'm sure it was a hard-fought campaign or whatever.

Especially because it was, I mean, Miramax is somewhat behind it, but it's a Paramount Vantage movie.

Yeah.

And I don't know how much Paramount Vantage was, you know, sharp-elbowed in there.

Right.

It's that campaign.

It's basically the final stages of post-Weinstein Miramax, which will completely dissolve before, once again, getting revived within a couple years.

Yeah.

And Vantage is shut down basically within two or three years of this.

Actually, I think that Miramax

actually

think that 2006, 2007 time period is when they end the partnership with Disney.

They stop being Touchstone and they go to Weinstein Company.

I know the Weinstein because Grindhouse is this same year.

That's right.

And that was a Weinstein Company movie.

So it was definitely, they had left before this.

So yeah.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Yeah.

Right.

I mean, they officially basically shut it down in 2009.

Disney did.

But Weinstein Company is 05 or 06.

Yeah, it was Fahrenheit, 9-11 is the whole flashpoint.

Anyway, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter, but just point being, it's the end of that run.

Fahrenheit, 9-11, of course, a film that lied about my great president George Schovener.

Your third favorite president.

Sorry, Leslie.

No, I was just going to say, like, this is the end of

the Miramax run and the birth of Scott Rudin.

This is a weird co-production of two companies that are in transitional state.

That hate each other.

Yeah.

Also transitional.

And they're about to close down.

Yeah.

Stuck between arrows of two different tyrants, as we say.

Right.

Normal guys.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But Scott Rudin's playbook for so long, beyond throwing things at people and demanding string cheese, was

that he would just get,

in his mind, the most talented auteurs under his wing after they had proven themselves or once they needed some support.

Yeah.

And he was basically a human version of like Richard Kelly's the box, right?

Where he'd be like, just don't look.

And if you need something, push a button and maybe someone gets hurt, but you don't have to know about it.

you don't have to know about right i'm just gonna fight all your fights for you and insulate you from this but his favorite thing to do was like find the material yeah find the director or be like what do you want to do next and all of it felt like in the grand scheme of things uh one of these days this is going to pay off in me winning best picture right yes the bathroom speeches begin yeah right i'm trying to find the right uh confluence of elements so i think that's part of it he's just constantly looking for what might have the juice and looking in unconventional places to his credit The other part of it is post-Lebowski, when they're kind of knocked down, they start taking four hire writing jobs for the first time.

Right.

And so there's a lot of

writing stuff.

But Lady Killer starts out as a script that they were not supposed to direct, and Talbot Cruelty was a rewrite job they were not supposed to direct.

They get talked into both of those.

And then there's like the Gambit remake that someone else ends up making.

There's some other stuff.

So they're in this zone where they're a little for hire.

Yeah.

And Rudin's going by that playbook.

Oh, I see.

If If so, it's a little more like set up than Rudin having the foresight of

Cone Brothers could write this.

No, the last two times this happened, it didn't work out for them.

But I think he's going,

this feels like a better match for them.

And if I can sneak them through the back door of just try adapting this, maybe they will once again fall in love with the material, agree to direct it, and this will actually work for them.

Yeah.

So,

obviously, the only real Cormac McCarthy adaptation that had appeared in theaters before this is All the Pretty Horses, which is basically the greatest book ever written.

The movie is not very good.

Supposedly, there's a better cutout there somewhere.

Right.

It's a contested

certainly, the movie that was released in theaters was not what anyone wanted to make.

And the question is, was there a version of it that would have worked?

Well, I think that Billy Bob Thornton, by his own admission,

essentially screened an assembly.

That's what he said.

Yeah.

And that everybody freaked out.

Everyone was like, right, exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That book is also poetic, spare,

difficult to adapt, like silently care, you know, like whatever.

This is a pulpy

thriller.

Like, and the Coens are like, we're very aware of McCarthy, but like, this felt like something we could get our hands around much more.

But they love that it's a a pulpy book that's an out ordinary straightforward treatment of a crime story.

And then the ending is so weird.

Yes, they like that three-quarters in, suddenly they're like, main character is going to disappear.

You know what I mean?

So that they like the chase story, then getting subverted.

There's another thing they love, which is that for the first half of the 2000s, their big dream project was to the White Sea.

Yes.

It was covered extensively in our friends.

Ray and Jordan's podcast, which was a novel adaptation that is mostly in the one character's head that doesn't have a ton of dialogue and is this sort of odd take on a survival film.

And

they could never get that off the ground, right?

Yeah.

But they, in reading this book, link back to that, the same thing that animated them, which is having a character who barely talks, who you get to define by his actions within a survival situation.

Right.

Right.

That it is circumstantial behavior.

Can you paint a full character portrait through that?

That's interesting.

That this guy speaks so rarely.

He's at the center of the story.

And we're only seeing him in a very specific set of circumstances.

And we're learning who he is through how he tries to game out his continued survival.

That is what's up.

And so, right.

That is what's up.

They try to make the movie that is just all that, and it's a little too wild and a little too expensive.

Right, right.

They had Brad Pitt.

He fell out.

They were like, it's not getting green if you don't have him.

Right.

Suddenly, it's like Rudin's bringing them this.

It's a smaller budget.

It's a cleaner sell.

But it's got the same juice that they had wanted to play with.

JJ thinks this and i agree with him that it is a lot it there's a lot of it that reminds me of miller's crossing both adapting writers miller's crossing inadvertent or like more indirectly yeah doing dashal hammock not a specific but like as they would put it like they like how cormac mccarthy this is a quote from ethan refuses to tell you what people are thinking and just describes what people are doing i understand

the lack of interiority they're like that's engrossing that's like interesting in a movie um

and they you know you have in this book a bad guy anton shakur i don't know if you guys agree he's a bad guy i think he raises some interesting ideas marketplace of ideas uh you have it ostensibly a good guy sheriff fell yeah and then you have llewellyn in the middle who's kind of a gray guy kind of a sort of like he's not malevolent but he's kind of you know well yeah he's like he's driven by greed which we all can relate with he likes his he loves his wife which we're all kind of down with he does some stupid things where, you know, as the outsiders, we can definitely be like, I wouldn't do that.

But like, you don't know, you're kind of, you know, we're all kind of stupid.

Relatable.

Yes.

100%.

And then, you know, just

the classic

in too deep, in over his head,

recognizable beginning, middle, and end to your everyman storyline.

And you start out with this triangle of like kind of an unlikely protagonist, right?

Thrust in the middle of the wrong story.

Yes.

Being chased by an unstoppable force.

Yes.

And the cop who is slowly narrowing in on it all from sort of circling around it slower and closer and closer.

Right.

They make it clear to Rudin, like, hey,

this is going to be violent.

Like, just making sure you're cool with that.

Right.

And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They have the line of one of us.

Sounded a little different than that, but yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of course, of course.

One of us types in the computer.

The other holds the spine of the book flat.

That's very funny.

With the book, every other chapter is narrative, and then every other chapter is an interior monologue from the sheriff.

From Belle.

They get rid of a lot of his monologues.

You only really do the opening, and then some of it he says out loud in dialogue.

But that's the only voiceover.

Right, right.

They basically strip out dialogue wherever they can.

They like

the least possible.

Which is another interesting thing of this movie because they are

perhaps, they are certainly in in the conversation of the best dialogue writers alive.

That's the thing.

Their movies are so talky.

Certainly.

Yeah.

I think their films have always been

consciously.

I think they're never really defining their characters through their language in a traditional way because one of the things I think they're so smart about as dialogue writers is that their characters are usually using dialogue to lie.

Yes, exactly.

Right.

If not for like devious criminal means in like saying who they want to be or how they want people to see them.

Yeah.

And that's really just been defining through action.

And what's interesting is the clash between the action and the words.

Right.

I think in terms of why this movie just connected with everyone, there's something about them pulling back the dialogue a bunch.

Yes.

Yeah.

That I think sometimes their detractors would get.

distracted by the tap dancing of the verbiage and going like, who are they trying to impress?

Well, this is the thing, right?

This is too clever.

Yeah, this is the thing.

Like, I am struggling with this because there are a lot of reasons I would call this a masterpiece, a lot of reasons.

But the last two times that I've been on this podcast and I've gotten the opportunity to talk about masterpieces, I, and I've always felt this way that a masterpiece has to have something personal.

about it.

And these like Minnesotan

Jewish guys, it's like, if I'm, if I have that criteria, which I made for myself, by the way, so I can absolutely break that.

But what I will say is that what this movie does, because the script is so faithful to the source material, is that it shows you what phenomenal filmmakers they are.

Exactly.

It does not, there's nothing covering it.

There's nothing going like, but also we smoothed it over with this thing and like we created a character that represented that and like, you know, and then, cause you could say Barton Fink, you could say Fargo, you could say Miller's Crossing for fuck's sake.

Like there's also an argument for a serious man for sure.

Like, so I think, but what's so energizing about it, and I think it's exactly what you're saying about everywhere one was like their back.

is that you really get to see, my fucking God, they can shoot a movie.

Better than anyone else.

Better than anyone else.

Basically from the the beginning.

Yeah.

Like just right out.

From the start.

Boom.

Gorgeous shot.

Right.

I was sheriff of this.

Boom.

You know, like it's just.

Just some of the most amazing

shot making in this movie.

It's look.

It's pretty.

It's a really pretty movie.

It's really pretty.

It's all the pretty.

It's a dramatic part of the country.

It looks really cool.

There will be blood wins cinematography.

And there's nothing wrong with that win.

Elsewhere

is a genius.

But let's acknowledge

a dicky thing that happened.

Double deke.

uh deacons was

for against himself for Jesse James Jesse James which is the thing with so this I think so that it splits the vote I think a little bit of that it's like this no disrespect to Ellswood who once again he's a great DP and that movie looks very good yes uh that movie's also got some shot making

uh but uh no country i think is deacons

you know just like tweaking the knobs perfectly right like it is not a showy

uh piece of you know cinematography jesse james exactly jesse james is like you're like every single frame you're like good lord like i'd like that framed please like actually hang that in my house it's an amazing looking movie prettiest movie right yeah it's a bit much at times as is everything in that fucking movie uh which i like i do like that

um but right i'm sure he split the vote against himself this should be his crown flavors of himself he should be winning with the Cohens.

It takes another 10 years for him to win cinematography.

Jesus the first time.

And then he won three in a row.

It was the same thing they did to Lubescu.

Ooh, I think.

Okay.

He won for Blade Runner and 1917.

He won for Blade Runner 2049.

Yeah.

Which is an amazing-looking movie

that rocks, but I think at the time people were like...

kind of a bummer.

He won for like a sequel to a movie he wasn't the DP on.

But it was also like, guys, please, can we get this one?

Yes.

And then he won again for 1917.

And that's a movie that is loud cinematography, obviously, because it's a single shot and all that.

And it was this sort of technical achievement.

And that was a fine win.

But it's, you know,

he should have won with the Coens when they won Best Picture.

Yes, it would have been a good one.

He's more tied to the Coens than any other film.

I agree.

I agree.

And this is a triumphant work that he made with them, but whatever.

I mean, I don't fucking know.

Maybe I should just go sit in a chair.

No, I'm with you.

I have the fight behind the microphone in the office.

This is where we record.

Oh, that's right.

Oh, that's right.

But here's my, here's my, here's what I would say about that here's why there's a possibility this is why that he may not have won right yes there are gorgeous shots in this movie yes there are beautiful landscapes yes there's you know a lot of what i would call yeah beautiful showy shots right and this is not my idea it's uh actually from the youtube channel every frame of painting but great youtube channel check those guys out there not that they need podcast check them out yeah but they're his video on specific

wonder well that but the cohen's one where he talks about the way they shoot conversations.

So he talks about shot, reverse shot.

Yep.

So he says, you know, this is how they work, essentially.

That's where they shine, right?

And Deacons in that video makes the point that with the Cohen's, he uses the long lens

for the coverage of the characters.

He is basically always inside the conversation.

You're almost never getting over the shoulders.

The camera is in between the people talking about it.

It's in between the people.

Sonnenfeld loved a wide lens, and Deacons is the one who's like, guys,

let's do it.

And I think that.

that, and I think that,

for example, the coin toss scene,

as great as Frendo is in terms of dialogue, which, by the way, that's what they shine at, right?

What really kills me in that scene is the framing of them.

The sense of space.

The sense of space.

We don't need an establishing shot that tells you everything about that space.

You see how out of place Sugar is, and you see how much Gene

Jones lives in that world.

And there's something even haunting about Gene being in this very busy frame behind the counter, all the stuff hanging behind him on the wall, and then the window behind him and the sense of kind of endless emptiness behind him.

Yes, that's true.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a constant reminder that these big action sort of moments in this film are happening in spots in between emptiness.

That's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's exactly right.

And so you're in the middle of nowhere.

And I think that's my

point about Deacons is that he just doesn't, like in this film, he's doing perfectly what they do.

Yes.

Their editor is doing perfectly what they do, which is their.

Their editor, who is them.

Yeah, who is them, right?

Right.

The rhythm of the dialogue, they understand.

Even if it's not what they quote unquote, wrote, it is what they do best.

It's a good match.

Yeah.

So it just,

yeah.

i wonder if that's why he just didn't have the

you know the landscapey beautiful i just i don't know if but i agree that he should have won with them is my point he did the ace apex of what they do i also think understood the assignment as the kids say i've said this in other episodes i think no think he's aura farming anton sugar is aura farming a bit i don't even know what this

it's the new things the kids say it basically seems to mean like

seeing aura like a-u-r-a you know how kids are always saying that like people have aura?

Yeah.

It's like, I guess it's just any scene in a movie where you kind of stand there looking cool.

Everyone's like, bro, is aura farming?

Okay.

Like, I just, I've been seeing you kind of get the clout for establishing great vibes or whatever.

Yeah.

But reaching out to a new audience.

It's both praise and slightly derogatory, I guess, where it's like, okay.

Yeah.

And just to be clear, we're trying to make our show catch on more with the TikTok generation.

Yeah.

Is Llewellyn Moss Sigma?

Can we talk about this?

I do.

I do think

throwing myself up a bridge.

I'm having a Brat summer.

Podcast over.

Well, no, Shiger is having a Brat summer.

He is.

He's quite a brat.

He's serving.

It would be funny if Woody Harrison was like,

Shigur is having a Brat summer to like Steven Root or whatever.

Two things about Deacons.

One.

I think he's better at shooting actors than anyone else alive.

Period.

Yeah.

And it's so much his background as a documentary cinematographer, not being able to compose it.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He just has a really good instinct of understanding exactly how to do it.

I didn't know that.

It's to be in relation to the performer to capture best what they're doing.

Yeah.

So there is that kind of very unshowy camera is always just in the exact right place to make everyone pop because basically every performance is good in a movie that runs.

He knows that the thing that is going to be scary about that scene is not the camera.

Yep.

The camera is not going to make the scene scary.

He understands always that he's in service of the thing.

Right.

Yeah.

And then secondly, he is able to shoot inanimate things with,

I was going to say inanimate things, but it just non-people, things that are not faces.

Things that are, yeah.

With a sense of innate power and dread.

Agreed.

The shot early on in the movie of the scuff marks left from the boot.

Jesus.

Yeah.

Of the sheriff that Shigur has choked out with the handcuffs is just like one of the most striking images in this film.

I agree.

I agree.

And it also is the moment, the first time I saw it,

it is the moment where it's like, get on board.

Yes.

This is the fucking movie.

Yep.

Yep.

There's no fake out.

We're just starting here.

There's no, it's just, we're starting here.

It's only going to go.

We're starting at 11.

Get excited.

I do think it's weird there's no bloopers at the end.

Like he flips the coin.

He's like, oh,

like,

that was the mid-2000s, by the way.

Yeah.

For the

La Fiza Highway.

Whatever.

Every time he.

This is the dawn.

Yeah.

Every time Deacons captures the

key lock being shot through with the cattle gun.

Do you know what I'm saying?

Whatever

the cylinder.

Yeah.

The cylinder of the key at the fucking door.

Jesus, yeah.

Yeah.

And there's the one time, maybe it happens a couple of times.

The one time I remember distinctly where he quickly cuts to a shot of the impact, the imprint left on the back wall of towers.

Yeah.

And stuff like that is somehow like the most upsetting imagery in the movie.

Yeah.

More than the stuff that is aggressively bloody.

Yeah.

Just to wrap up the dossier.

The dossier.

McCarthy did visit the set, but I think they basically just described him as amiable and gracious, not like.

there to render judgment.

They talk about him coming to a screening early on, and they heard him laugh a couple times.

Right.

And they went, I guess that means he approves.

I mean, famously, that means the Cohens like to take.

Yes.

I've heard that from multiple people.

I feel like someone just texted us that, like, they don't really give a lot of notes.

And then you do the take.

And if they're like,

then it's like, all right, I guess we're done.

I'll wrap it up.

Yes.

In unison.

Moving on.

Yeah.

And it does not need to be a funny scene.

They just like giggle maniacally if they like what's happening.

So this is a crazy.

Okay.

This is interesting, just behind the scenes stuff.

So Rudin is in the final stages of his deal at Paramount when he gets the rights to this novel.

Paramount is turning Paramount Classics into Paramount Vantage, which is now Paramount Nothing,

Paramount Cowards, or Paramount MAGA, or whatever Paramount's up to these days.

It was just so funny when it went for Paramount Classics, which was like, this is

the most erudite version of our archway, right?

Right.

Like, it felt like it was the Paramount gates framed by like flowers and shit and this like dainty like calligraphy kind of thing.

Yeah.

And then it was replaced with like fucking punk rock, bar, bathroom, label maker.

The sticker isn't even staying.

It's carved.

Vertage.

Anyway,

so he

will then move on to produce almost a number of studios, including post-Harvey Miramax.

Yes.

To deal with this transition, he proposes that both No Country for Old Men and There Will Be Blood, a movie he also executively produced, be set up as co-productions of Paramount Vantage and Miramax.

Right, right.

They have

basically Miramax essentially being, of course, a Disney label

in the dying days of that.

But isn't it No Country was Miramax domestic Paramount overseas and

There Will Be Blood was the opposite?

I feel like something like that.

Yeah.

I don't know.

No, what are you going to say?

No, I just, I feel like knowing Miramax.

Yeah, you're right, Griffin.

Okay.

Oh, you were, that's what it it is.

Okay.

It was Miramax at Domestics on Domestic on this and International on Blood and vice versa for

I cannot believe you knew that.

I can't believe

he's a friend.

My group.

Brandon also produced Darjeeling Limited and Margot at the Wedding in 2007.

So it's just when you have a lot of auteurs making, but making difficult movies.

Like Darjeeling is a bit of a difficult swing for Anderson that doesn't go over perfectly.

Margot is an insanely difficult swing for Bomback that goes over horribly.

Horribly, yeah.

And is still, I feel like, the movie when people are like, I like Noah Bomback.

I'm like, Margo at the wedding.

And there's the 5% of psychos who are like, oh, my favorite.

And the others are like, I never saw it.

Or

I hated it.

I mean, drinking poison.

The ruden magic was that he was like a fucking mafia boss who was like, if this is what you want to make,

I will steamroll anyone who stands in the way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I got you 100%.

That's a really good strategy.

Yes.

If you think about it.

It's how he attracted the best directors because he was just like, you will be protected.

It's actually like, you know, actually, Netflix kind of did that in its early days.

It was going to give you notes.

We're not going to give you notes.

Just come in here and fucking do it.

And now they still don't give notes, right?

The normal.

No, the Netflix thing was for so long, what is the movie?

Super chill.

And they're all about artistic vision.

And then they like everything to look however it should look.

Exactly.

And they never demand that every movie open with an overhead helicopter shot of the city, et cetera.

Where they're basically like they have some numbers that tell them if that isn't the opening shot, that people won't be able to get them.

They're putting their like fucking Trader Joe's dinner on their table with their mug.

You know, like they don't want to pay attention for 35 minutes.

No, thank you.

I don't know.

But yes, Netflix strategy,

first is the ruden thing.

I feel like the Netflix strategy was for years them being like, what is the script everyone else has turned down?

Yes.

Well, you know what?

You make it here with a lot of money and no notes.

And then some of those came out and you were like, oh, I get why everyone turned the script down.

Um,

no country, uh, they write, by the way, just to point out, they write at the same time as A Serious Man and Burn After Reading.

I think it's important to note that because it's like they hadn't made an original movie in a long time, right?

Right.

At this point, and it's not like this is them, and then they're like, Oh, maybe we should.

It's like they do have these original ideas cooking at the same time.

But also, this period of like profound productivity for them, they start being like once-a-year guys

for a little while.

This run of bangers that all came out of the same create a bubble.

An interesting fact about this movie is that apart from Stephen Root, I think everyone in it is someone they've never worked with.

First time,

and it doesn't feel that way.

Everyone in it, you're like, oh, these feel like Cohen guys.

And obviously, they worked with Brolin again.

Two times.

Did they ever work with Bardem or TLJ again, though?

No.

I feel like, did they ever use Garrett Dillahunt again?

He's another guy that feels like they would have used him like five times.

Yes,

he auditioned for Llewellyn five times.

For Llewellyn, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Five times.

That's what I read.

And he could not be more perfectly used in the place he is.

Or should have been.

Yeah.

It is also funny that he is also in Jesse James and kind of plays a very similar role.

What happened with the Heath Ledger of it all?

They said

he was their first choice, which makes perfect sense after broke back, but also I think it would have felt a little repetitive.

I'm sure he would have figured out a way to make it a distinct performance.

That's a good point.

Yeah.

But you're casting him off of the strength of the thing he just did really well, which is Cowboy Who Doesn't Say Much.

However, you know,

you've got Joker in the midst of all of that.

So yeah, it would be an amazing in-between if he'd been in this.

Yeah, I agree with everything you just said.

I just wonder, yeah, I just wonder if that would have impacted it at all.

Probably not.

Dark Knight comes out like eight, nine months after this.

Oh, it was after this.

I wonder if he had said yes to this, if he would have been able to do Dark Knight.

He said he turned it down because his daughter had just been born and he wanted to spend time with her.

I see.

Yeah.

Which makes sense.

And then after nine, 10 months, whatever, he accepts the Dark Knight role.

It feels like the kind of thing

landed where it should have happened.

It's just unfortunate that

it passed away.

Yeah.

Very much.

Brolin famously was shooting Planet Terror, which he's really good in.

Yes.

A really funny performance.

He should do more of that.

He does.

He works a lot.

I shouldn't really complain.

And famously got Rob Rodriguez and Quentin Tarantino to help him with his audition tape.

And the Cohens, when they got it, said, who lit this?

Not joking.

Yes.

And they liked it.

Yes.

How it was lit.

They didn't like him.

And they said, no.

And he said that, like,

he said he thinks it hurt that he was like really big and he had this goatee for the role in Planet Terror.

And he thinks he didn't look right, but he was also just like, I don't think they liked me.

Like, it's fine.

Like, I wasn't vibing for them.

That's right.

Let's talk about Brolin.

But they couldn't cast this role.

Right.

Let's talk about Brolin's status at this point.

Sure.

Yeah, that's a good point.

He's like a teen actor, a son of an actor.

He's a Nepo baby.

His dad is a pretty famous actor.

I feel like maybe people don't put enough respect on James Brolin's name anymore, but he said the Cohens would certainly know.

But he was kind of like

an A-plus

B-list star, if that makes sense.

He was very similar to James Garner to me.

Like, where it's like a big TV actor and a sort of solid-ish.

He had the absolute leading man vibes.

Yeah.

Never took away the same thing.

Hamson.

Yeah.

Was famously very close to being James Bond.

He was almost the only

James Bond.

And of course, he's been married to Barbara Streisand for marriage.

For a very long time.

Right.

But which I'm sure is normal as well.

We're talking about so many normal people.

He's never super normal.

He has this run of like thrashing and goonies and all his teen performances, right?

Where he has just kind of like out-of-the-box charisma as a kid and then talks about that he hit a point where he was just like, I want to get good at doing this and tried to really like

learn how to be better.

And then yet was still stuck in kind of like a true B movie fourth lead zone for

Jessica Lang moment.

Yep.

Right.

Like it's a King Kong, hold on a second.

Yep.

Like one moment.

Yep.

You know,

Oscar.

In 2000.

Right.

But he was stuck there for a while.

He's in Hollow Hollow Man as like the guy where you're like, hey, Hollow Man, bash this guy's fucking head.

And he's nothing.

He was always.

He's like, what's the matter, girlfriend?

You're like, fuck it.

I can't wait for the Invisible Man to waste this guy.

Fuck this guy.

He always had kind of like...

He's going to die like seconds.

Right.

Fake lead.

Get him out of here.

Right.

And then he's in like fucking nothing.

He's villaining into the blue.

Right.

It's the in 2004.

Apparently, he's in Melinda and Melinda.

I don't remember that.

I did see that film.

2005.

He's the villain in the Paul Walker, Jessica Alba shirtless film Into the Blue.

One of those films where it was like, what's the plot?

And they're like, shirtless.

Shirtless.

Yeah.

Yeah.

2006, he was in The Dead Girl.

That didn't win a point anyway.

And then in 2007, he's in Grindhouse in the Valley of Allah, the movie that Tommy Lee Jones gets an Oscar nomination for.

No Country for Old Men, an American Gangster.

And he's also in the Cohen Brothers short film

to Each His Own Cinema.

To Each His Own Cinema.

The next year, he does W,

where he plays my favorite president.

Yeah.

Besides.

besides the later one,

not Obama.

Not Joe.

No, it is Joe.

It's actually Joe.

It's Joe.

It's Joe.

It's Joe.

We're bad reason motherfuckers.

And Mill, which he is phenomenal.

His final.

Yes,

very, very good.

His first Oscar novel.

Yes.

His only.

And then after that, he has kind of a weird

Are You a Star thing where it's like Jonah Hex.

It doesn't work.

She, for a long time, was one of those actors.

Black Three.

Like, she's good in it.

He's like the old boy remake.

Old boy remake.

He was so misguided.

He felt quietly like Box Office Poison for a while, where anytime he was in a supporting part, it worked.

And anytime a movie was pinned on him, it was a disaster.

It was a disaster.

But he's a working actor.

Yes.

He's a working actor.

And then he played Thanos.

And it was one of those things where you're like, that feels like a bummer for him.

Yeah.

And like, Marvel's not going to pull that off.

And then

they pulled that off.

And he pulled that off.

It was when Ruffalo was cast as Hulk.

Yeah.

Same sort of feeling, right?

You're like, what?

Why is he doing that?

Why is he doing that?

Ruffalo.

And then fantastic.

And then fantastic.

To your point, it's the fact that he pulled it off, that people were like,

he actually gave a real performance here.

He's really the only reason this shit is working.

I mean, he has this run that's like inherent vice.

Yeah.

Sicario, which he's great in.

Horses say table and Everest.

He's one of the 10 people trying to climb Everest.

Hail Caesar, which he's great in.

Only the Brave, he's phenomenal in that movie.

And then the fucking Two Avengers movies.

This is a Sicario sequel.

And then The Dunes, which he's wonderful in.

I think he's now.

He's figured out his thing now.

But now he's doing Zach's movie.

He's Quieter lately, but now he's in Zach's movie.

He's in the New Knives Out.

He's rolled about that.

He's in the Running Man, Jack-Wright movie.

And he's in this Ridley Scott movie called The Dog Stars.

That's like...

a post-apocalyptic movie with like Jacob Elarty and him.

I'm sure that'll be fun.

Yes.

It's just

funny how they're all.

ridley scotshotted like two days.

You just set up a bunch of cameras in a circle.

It was like, go on, fucking.

That moment in 2007 where suddenly it was like, Josh Brolin is in five movies this year working with all major directors.

Who made a phone call?

Like, what is this?

Right.

Like what we were talking about in our Malholland Drive episode.

Like, why did Hollywood just think they all decide this guy?

Yeah.

And then you see the performances and you're like, this guy figured his thing out.

That's the thing.

Right.

This wasn't like some concerted press effort.

Yes.

Roland famously was like day trading to make money.

Yes.

All the way up to making no country.

He was married to Diane Lane.

Was mostly at this point the guy who stands next to Diane Lane while she's having a second act

sort of

revival.

Yes.

He says he had a great job.

Unfaithful was like 2001?

He's sitting next to her with the audience.

Yeah, so five years he's sitting next to her.

Yeah.

I love that movie so much when she's so horny that the wind just fucking blows her across the street.

It's one of my favorite movies of all time.

That is a movie where people are like, oh, isn't it bad?

And I'm like, watch it again.

Oh, it is.

Sit your ass down.

Oh, it is a fantastic.

Fantastic, horny version of Sandra Bullock being so racist she falls down the stairs in crash.

It truly is.

That is what happens in crash.

You can't convince me otherwise.

She's so goddamn racist, the floor is like, down you go, bitch.

These people.

I truly said to my brother, I remember on Next Eight Theater, I was like, am I supposed to take away that she was so mean to her maid that the maid like cleaned the floors too hard?

and that's why she fell down the stairs.

She's so racist.

What?

She lost

her own gravity.

Oh my God.

You guys,

you're gonna kill me.

I'm gonna have a heart attack.

But Berlin talks about that he had the clarity of just being like, I know this is my part.

I like see how to do it.

Yeah, this is me.

And I've heard something in me that I haven't gotten the chance to show.

And this is the vehicle.

And I have to figure out how to get it.

I got to figure out how to get it.

And he said, like, I had a very good agent who was very persistent who wasn't like, he's perfect for the part, but was just like, can you just meet him?

And especially as they're not finding someone else,

they could wait back and hold back six weeks later, go like, you want to take another look at Josh.

Yeah, and then I guess we have to, yeah, he puts it as finally they're like, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine.

He can come down.

He says, I studied a few scenes.

I came down and met them.

There was really no reaction in the meeting.

I walked out being like, well, it was really nice that I met the Cohens.

I'm a big fan.

And by the time he got home, he got the part.

You know, he was told he got the part.

Ethan says, like,

they had just

talked to both Tommy and Javier that day, and he comes in, and that combo helped them be like, Yeah, these three guys circling each other kind of makes sense to us.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, and I think there's also the kind of like it's weird.

It's like Tommy Eli Jones is a major star, but obviously, he's not exactly like

a guaranteed box office guy at that point.

No, no, but he's a major star, but like fucking man of the house had come out to Pin drops two years before this.

Pin drops.

Javier Vardem is like a respected actor who is certainly not a box office guy yet.

He's got one Schnabel Oscar nom under his for Before Night Falls.

But this is his first English-speaking movie.

He's in collateral in like that one scene, but that's about it.

He is largely a Spanish actor.

During the press tour for this, he did not speak much English.

And his Oscar speech he gives is a minute and a half and half of it's in Spanish.

Like it was that thing where you were like, oh, he kind of learned this phonetically.

I've never seen

it.

When I did Acolyte,

Li Zheng She did the entire show phonetically.

Yeah.

So interesting.

Yeah.

That might have helped his performance in a weird way.

Just because Jedi are so

remote and his characters obviously kind of, you know, where it's like, that's sort of an interesting thing to hand an actor.

Yeah.

He also just.

It probably seems hard, though.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I think with Javier in this movie, what's great is that he's it again, it helps like he

doesn't need to speak until he needs to speak.

And there's also something about the unease of the language, so everything is well, sugar, as you know, uh, and you're probably about to read David.

Um,

uh, Cormack

wanted to create a character that was ethnically ambiguous, right?

You didn't read it and imagine a human person,

Right.

So I think that was also,

and I don't know if this is ignorant on their part, the Cohen brothers, but it seemed to me that they certainly wanted someone that looked ethnically ambiguous.

Like what, you know, and what accent is that?

Which is why the phonetic

is good.

You know, like

the fact that.

Yeah, it when he spoke late, much later, I think, actually, it was, I told them I don't,

i don't like violence right and i don't drive he he talked that's what he said that he loved the corn brothers so much he said yes to this even though he was like i don't get this i don't qualify i have no idea what's happening right yeah this isn't in my wheelhouse yeah but he he has uh

one of the most unique faces absolutely i feel like he has talked about like uh thank god I broke my nose at a young age.

Yeah.

Like, I don't think I would have been a movie star.

Oh, have you guys seen Haman Haman, by the way?

Yes, I have.

You have.

One of the wildest looks anyone has ever had.

You know, there's crazy.

There was this thing in the 90s as I was a burgeoning cinema fan.

And I realized this is sort of these Spanish films in the 90s.

Yeah.

It involved insane amounts of sex and nudity.

I don't know if you guys are aware of this.

Yes.

Insane.

Big S Luna, one of these guys who'd be like, hmm, titties.

You know, like, or I was just going to be like, oh, pulling that off the old library shelf.

Yeah, but it is very funny to see him.

Yes.

You know, well,

that's young Javier, but I'm not sure.

Yeah, that's him and her.

That's him and Penelope.

Many years before they actually have 18, I think.

And he's like 24.

But actually, in that movie, I think.

He's very like skinny and sexy.

Exactly.

And he's very aware of how his physicality is defining his character, right?

Like there's a lot of shots of his cock.

No, no, sorry.

His cock in underwear.

Sorry, to be cleared for the viewers.

Yeah, his bulge is heavily featured.

He's very much

objectified by some of the characters in the film.

You know, specifically, you know, if you don't know the plot of this movie, you don't really need to know it.

It's everyone's having sex.

Yeah, it's like a relationship that turns disaster.

Soap opera.

Yeah, like it's whatever.

So it's called Hamon Hamon, which of course means him.

Ham.

Yeah.

Yes.

But point being, I think that was kind of his first

role.

That was his calling card.

That's his calling card.

And then he does live flesh, which rocks.

Perdita Durango with Rosie Perez.

Yes.

Yeah.

He does the Before Night Falls, obviously, is the big breakout.

And then

the Sea Inside, another fucking paralyzed guy movie.

Sorry to be painting with a broad brush.

That and Diving Bone Butterfly.

There's something to

do.

That's a movie where you are like.

He's very good in this.

Yes, yes.

The movie

is fine.

It's a solid colour.

I think the whole Bardem thing is that

his energy, his look, his voice are all constantly teetering on this very, very delicate edge between

terrifying, sexy, and silly.

Absolutely.

That is what it is.

It takes one degree for him to swing so wildly the other way.

That is what it is.

And it doesn't make sense that he can kind of hold all three.

There is something.

It's going to sound weird, but there is something that is silly about the sugar performance.

I think that's something.

It's very small.

It's like 5%.

Yes.

But if you, as an actor, well, the only thing that's said about him in the book is that he doesn't have a sense of humor.

Yes.

There's no description of him.

There's no like inside his head what's going on.

He thought, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

Or he doesn't, it's a little bit.

But I think you have to have a sense of humor to play him.

I agree.

And I also think that's so much of the styling, which they talk about.

They

hair.

I was just going to say.

is like...

And they put him in the outfit.

They do a camera test.

And he's like, is this a prank?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Why would I look like this?

That's the 5% silly.

And he was.

That's a silly haircut.

They were laughing hysterically.

I thought they were bullying me.

I thought they were setting me up for failure.

But the thing he does smartly is understand the funniest thing he could do is not play the look at all.

Right.

And he does not.

He lets it speak for himself.

He knows it.

For itself.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Right.

And that's the sort of like conflict within it of just, I cannot get my head around this guy.

And they found

a in a they found the hair from a photograph of a guy in what, in the 70s who's at a brothel.

It's a book that Tommy Lee Jones had, supposedly.

I just love the idea of like, hey, fellas,

want to read my book?

That is a great accent.

Fantastic.

Violence.

He does hate violence, but...

Doesn't drive.

He doesn't drive.

But he would,

he would apparently, like, he says, like, I managed to drive myself into the park to become evil, to become death.

When the camera stopped rolling, I would bed the Cohen brothers, like, all right, all right, can you get the gun out of my face?

And said, he said, they would just be giggling, which is just like the story of reactors.

Yes.

Yeah.

The haircut.

Yeah.

Supposedly a photograph of a guy in a bar at a Texas border town in 1979.

The haircut is acting by itself.

Bardam says you don't have to act weird.

Yeah.

Don't play the hair.

No, you have it.

To me, he looks like, and this is the thing they thought about it, he looks like a fucking monk or knight from like the Crusade.

Sure.

Like that's like what people look like in paintings from the 10th century.

I feel like they also joke about Dorothy Hamill, but that's part of it.

It just looks like he walked out of another dimension.

That's that's what it is.

That's just what it is.

Where you're like, this is a human person and he does bleed and shit.

Like it's not like he's the Terminator exactly.

I agree.

But you are just like, is this someone from, yeah, just like another world?

Here's

like an alien.

Here's the thing I will admit that makes me sound stupid because I am stupid.

You're a big stupid idiot.

Excuse me.

I'm a little stupid idiot.

I'm very

stupid.

You're physically small.

You're stupid.

Mucho grande.

When I speak to you, I mean, the first thing I think of is ignorance.

Yes, absolutely.

First and foremost.

I remember watching this movie for the first time and getting to the gravestone at the end and being like, oh, this was a period piece?

Yeah, right.

They took it in 1980.

Yeah.

Every time I watch it, the first time I felt that too.

I still get so caught up in it, I forget it was not set in 2007 until the Vietnam line, which somehow I just didn't clock the first time I wasn't doing the math on.

The production design is astonishing.

Exactly.

And they're not playing period that.

hard.

No.

Right.

And it's like the earmarks are the lack of certain technology, what have you, right?

But there is something something kind of timeless about it.

And yet, Shigur is the only character who is kind of styled specifically

through the 70s in a way that is then so jarring.

Yes, yes, yes.

Why is this guy like a weird amalgamation of trends?

You know, oh, of trends.

Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah, I see what you mean.

Yeah.

And not like high fashion trends, but you're like, he's sort of got like a Canadian tuxedo thing going on.

He's got very 70s boots.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

The costume designer talked about how she wanted the boots to feel like a weapon.

Yes.

Like knives, basically.

And she said she was like, no one else in the movie is wearing this style of boot.

No, they're all

kind of like tired out.

Yeah.

Yes.

It's got a heel to it.

But there's the moment late in the film when he's trying to extract the bullet from his leg.

And they cut to him sitting in the hotel bathroom, right?

With his legs crossed.

Gorgeous.

Using tweezers to try to pull out a bullet shard and he's like bucking it down and he looks hot, but also he's not posing in a naturally menacing way, right?

There's something as if he is posed as if he is painting his own nails.

He, this is what I mean.

And he's like slouched over.

And I think it starts with Himon Himon, right?

Is that I think this is a man who understands that a lot of acting is the neck down.

He's got a tremendous amount of body.

He cuts just a big figure, right?

And he's really really smart about knowing how to subvert what you expect him to do or how you expect him to play a scene without just feeling like he's being uh flippant yeah you know or like contrarian or whatever yeah and it's like right somehow the fact that he's not playing that scene tough makes it tougher.

Somehow the fact that he's like

slouching over in a way where there actually are tummy rolls rather than later when he stands up in the towel and you see him looking pretty cut makes him look more sexual but also makes it more otherworldly where you're like it's even weirder to see this haircut on a naked body

you know

david yes can i identify your single biggest issue um you you might as well call me out i think i finally it's been 10 years of the podcast about 15 years of friendship i think i finally nailed tell me what is it Your butt.

You're too much of a yes man, like the Jim Carrey comedy.

Okay, yeah.

Okay, so Zoe Deschenel's hanging around me.

Absolutely, Bradley Cooper.

You need to start being more of a Dr.

No, James Bond's first film entry.

Of course, and we all know who played Dr.

No, and you're going to tell me right now.

If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no.

So maybe you actually need to combine yes man and Dr.

No.

Admin Mobile.

Joseph Wiseman, just by the way.

No, of course.

We all knew that.

I was saying that.

Admin Mobile.

I was just ramping up to that.

Their favorite word is no.

Dr.

No, played by Joseph Wiseman.

No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS.

Oh, my goodness.

And what's the yes that you get?

Here's why I said yes as in yes, man, the Jim Carrey vehicle, to making the switch and getting premium wireless for $15 a month.

Wow.

I know why you did it because it's $15 a month at Mint.

Well, yeah, sure.

Yeah.

You can ditch overpriced wireless and they're draw dropping monthly bills, unexpected overages and hidden fees.

Jaw dropping is kind kind of like a thing from the mask, the different Jim Carrey movie.

Plans start at $15 a month.

And as you said, but all plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.

That's 5Gs.

You use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts.

I mean, if I needed a cell phone provider, I would be jumping over to Mint.

Exactly.

Are you ready to say yes to saying no?

Make the switch at mintmobile.com/slash check.

That's mintmobile.com/slash check.

Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month.

Limited time, new customer offer for first three months only.

Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on a limited plan.

Taxes and fees extra.

See Mint Mobile for details.

I was worried that I was going to say Robert Wise instead.

That's why I didn't have the courage.

I was like, I think it's Joseph Wiseman, but I was worried I was going to flip it.

David?

Yes.

I wear glasses.

Ah, to see.

I do, in fact, wear them to see.

I used to wear them as an affectation when I was a child.

Well, I did the same thing.

Yep.

I pretended they were real.

And then people found me out to be a fake.

And then because of that, when I started actually needing glasses and wearing them for real, all my friends

were convinced that it is still just an affectation, but it is not.

I'm sure.

My vision gets worse by the minute, it feels like sometimes.

But I just stopped wearing mine.

Yeah, how's that going for you?

It sucks.

Yeah.

See, this is the thing, Ben.

What do you mean?

Why'd you stop?

I just got lazy.

You got to get your butt to Warby Parker.

You're the one who's always telling me the value of throwing a good fit, right?

Yeah.

And feeling good.

It affecting your whole sense of self, right?

And Warby Parker is like throwing a fit for the face.

Yeah.

It is.

It truly, it immediately improves your quality of life.

If you're on board with glasses, right?

Orby Parker used premium materials.

They designed frames in-house.

They've got silhouettes, colors, and fits made to fit every face.

I love the frames themselves, but let me, can I just talk about the experience?

Because David, I went through it again recently.

Okay.

I had an old pair of glasses that had been my mains for a while break on me.

After several years of loyal service, I salute them.

And I went and I was one-stop shopping.

I said, it's been two years.

Let me get a new vision test.

Get your eye exam.

Let me get examed, new prescription, eye pressure test.

And then immediately while I'm waiting for the results, I'm going around, I'm looking at frames, I'm trying them on.

And there's a flexibility there, right?

Folks just want cool sunglasses.

You can get them cheaper at Warby Parker than a lot of other places.

But sometimes you see a sunglass frame you like and you go, Can I actually get this in clear vision lenses?

Can I get this pair meant to be readers as sunglasses?

You can try on all sorts of crazy stuff.

This is my new thing I'm into: sunglass clip-on.

So you just got the one pair.

Sure, can pull the um Chris Farley meme.

Warvy Parker has over 300 locations to help you find your next pair of glasses.

You can also head over to warvyparker.com slash check right now to try on any pair virtually.

That's warvyparker.com/slash check.

Warvyparker.com/slash check.

And And if people want to flip it griff style, I'll just say I'm currently rocking the toddy, wide frames, and tortoise shell.

Um, Tommy Lee Jones, obviously, I would say, is the most root one casting decision in this movie.

Yeah, yes.

Like, we're gonna have Tommy Lee Jones play a Texas sheriff who's a little over it.

And yeah, I think this performance was greeted as a like, welcome back.

Yeah.

And it's an amazing performance.

They, they wanted this character to be tart, like they didn't want like a sort of good old boy, essentially.

And that's what TLG TLG is so good at.

But also what he's good at.

He's from where it's set.

They're like, he's the real thing for the region.

He just checked every box.

And then, you know, there's some interview where someone's like, is he scary?

And Ethan says, he's a big pussycat.

And Joel says, let's just say he doesn't suffer fools gladly, but he is fine.

Yeah.

I also famously sued Paramount and got like a fucking ton of money from them because they fucked him on some contract thing for this movie.

Yes.

They gave him like 15 million dollars.

That kind of

yes, but that was not a Cohen's thing, obviously.

But I think, right, he waived his quote for some back end that then they tried to withhold from him.

Messed with him.

I was going to say, I think a lot of people they could have cast would then try to play, as you said, like tart, rough, right, haggard, you

And what's smart is they like hire Tommy Lee Jones.

That's his default setting.

And then they're sort of saying, like, can you make this your most emotional performance ever?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And that's the magic of it.

It's really magical.

From the get-go, there's something disarming about starting a movie inside Tommy Lee Jones's head where he's basically admitting to the audience, like, I just don't even know anymore.

I mean, if you think about like, you know, him in pop culture, obviously he's acted in a gajillion thing since the fugitive, but like, that's his, you know, you look at him, that's what you think, right?

You think high status?

Yeah, you think high status, you think, you know, barking orders, you think, yeah, of course, like, you know, being the good guy at the end, but almost sort of reluctantly, right?

You know, like,

I killed my wife.

Yes.

I don't care.

You know, like, it isn't even, I don't believe you.

Yes, you did.

It does not matter to me because I'm the Anton sugar of this movie.

That live reading wins him the Oscar.

And from that moment on, every time he is cast, they are either leaning into that or trying to subvert it.

Yeah.

Right?

Like it becomes the unavoidable comparison point of this is, as you said, this is what people have in their mind when they think about Tommy Lee Jones.

I think so.

And he's not a guy who transforms himself.

So he's going to be used differently.

But you're never going to be like, that was Tommy Lee Leon Jones.

I also think I'm just realizing this in this moment that actually it does help the narrative of the movie because there's this understanding that he in his iconic role tracks down the bad guy, quote unquote, right?

Like he is excellent at that.

So you do continue to think, even subconsciously, he's going to catch this guy.

And not only that, you start with his interior monologue and then he's basically not on screen for like 20 minutes.

Oh, is that?

And his screen time increases as the movie goes on, but he's pretty backloaded.

So it's important to be like, here's the big movie star.

You know who this guy is.

Yeah.

You're setting expectations based on him being in a movie with this kind of setup.

Yeah.

We're pinning him at the beginning.

You're never going to forget about him.

Yeah.

You're keeping track of him the entire time, even when he's elusive from the story.

Yes.

Yeah.

Because we're going to have to get back to him at the end, and he needs to have been felt the whole time.

Jesus.

Yeah.

He's.

Yeah.

Incredible performance.

And of course, right, he doesn't get nominated for this.

He gets nominated for In The Valley of Allah, a movie that's completely forgotten.

It is.

It's not, in my opinion, a maybe singing movie, but he is unsurprisingly very good in it.

And it was kind of a combo nom.

Yeah.

And everyone knew that Bardem was basically walking away with supporting actors.

So I think they didn't.

Just quickly, who was that?

Just a couple

vibes of who the other guys were.

Okay, so lead that year is Daniel Day wins.

He wins.

Yes, right there.

I'm abandoned, my boy.

I mean, that is cunt.

George Clooney and Michael Clayton, did you see that?

interview he gave about it that was so funny it was on one of the talk shows where he says like the thing Clooney says like the thing i get the most praise for from like people now is the final scene of michael clayton just drive yeah right and he's like the reason i agree with them is that entire fucking scene we were shooting have you seen this interview yes it's incredible like it what people on the street were going hey george clooney and they were seeing him in the window again like oh because it was just filming live and they were like we had one take of that it was like one mag we weren't gonna get a sign i am trying so hard not to laugh the entire scene and people are like, what is he thinking of?

Like the blankness on his face is so profound.

And you're like, that guy is just trying to hold his shit together.

Hey, Georgie.

There's a story like that about

De Niro and Robin Williams in Awakening.

Story, which I'm not going to say on this podcast.

Okay.

I was going to say.

Oh, you can do it, but the listeners can't say it.

Yeah, the listeners can look it up.

Yeah.

Wait,

what is it again?

Robert Jean.

It's Robin Williams.

It's Robin Williams and De Niro in Awakenings.

And

it's a similar vibe.

It's a sequence in the movie in which De Niro has not yet awakened.

That's correct.

And he is a man trapped inside a body.

And we've got bystanders.

He's back of a car, you know, screaming, hey, De Niro, you know, like,

and he's just keeping his stillness.

That's correct.

This character cannot react.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, because David asked,

a guy yells out, hey, Bobby, you still like that black pussy?

Can you imagine?

David.

And De Niro's just like.

No, De Niro breaks.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

That guy.

Williams was like, it was the only time I ever saw him

where he had to be like, yeah, I did.

It's so, it's, it's, you got me there.

It's dark, but it's a, it's a fucking, it's a, it's a story.

We'll say it's a story.

We'll say that.

Guys got me picked.

Uh, the other nominees for best actor of the year is a very strong year because Vigo Morton's in the Eastern Provinces, which is another one where you're like, is this like a lizard from Jupiter?

Like, you know, this guy who shows up is just like, I cut off hands and feet.

And you're just like, I want to see.

Perfect respect.

I don't believe you.

Yeah.

Oh, boy.

Lizard from Jupiter.

And then Depp in Sweeney Todd, which is this sort of divisive performance.

I do this him.

It is him.

It is.

It's him.

Okay.

And then supporting.

Totally normal guy.

Just it's the most amazing.

We're seeing so many normal people on this.

And we love talking about supporting actors.

We do.

We've never done it.

No, it's never done.

For Dem, Philip C.

Morhoffman in Charlie Wilson's where he had just won an Oscar, but that's a showy supporting performance.

So, I mean,

the one scene.

Yes.

It just lights up.

Tom Wilkinson and Michael Clayton,

arguably a worthy winner, incredible performance of Casey Affleck, Jesse James.

Yes, total category fraud.

He's a lead, but he's an astonishing performance.

But really, really good.

From a normal person.

Another normal, totally normal.

And Hal Holbrook and Into the Wild, which is a career numb, but a great performance.

Yes.

Yeah.

Right.

And I think it was seen as it might be his year in a gold watch kind of thanks for a great career.

Of course.

But the sugar was just like, it felt like...

Well, it doesn't sound like the strongest year to me in terms of competition for him.

That was sort of the question behind the question.

I also just think.

Like, was anybody giving him a run for his?

I feel like he basically had this lock from the moment the film premiered.

And I also think I remember saying to people when this came out, like, this is the most iconic villain that anyone has created since Hannibal Lecter.

I think it is such a kind of perfect, like excellent

voice, the look, the behavior, scene for scene.

This is just this character so fucking sticky.

Yeah.

And I said to a friend in film school, like, people are going to be parodying this character for 20 years.

It is to my great relief that I feel like what happened is one year later, the Joker comes out.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

And that becomes the villain that basically everyone is sort of trying to chase for the next 20 years.

It wouldn't be funny if, like, dank meme lords started like Anton Suguring overall.

You know what I mean?

Like if he became their like.

I think it is to culture's great gain that somehow Sugar

got spared the memeification that would have kind of flattened him a little bit.

Yes.

Based on the Joker like nine months later

just becoming the thing.

And then also like most other villains after that are sort of trying to iterate on what Ledger did.

Yes.

And it still makes Bardeminis feel like this very unique, bizarre lightning in a bottle thing.

Yeah.

Also, with the benefit of not being like, and then Hopkins played Lecter three more times, you know.

Yes, yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

We suddenly throw that person in the lead, and it's like, no, thank you.

Yeah, because I just still, I watch this and I go, like, where the fuck did this come from?

Right.

And it still feels fresh to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um,

so, uh, uh, wait, back to the Kelly McDonald, amazing in this,

unbelievable.

So good.

Kind of a swerve casting wise, obviously.

It's a little bit like a Helena Bodum Carter fight club situation where you're like, the girl from Train Spotting?

The most Scottish woman alive

just dropped in the middle of,

yeah, this like, she's, she's so

excellent.

And just like, talk about perfect characterization in few words.

Their first exchange on the couch of the trailer, right yeah where he's like you keep talking like that i'm gonna have to take you back and fuck you yeah yeah and then she's a big talk big talk and then he just sits there and catus drink beer and you see it on her face of like it up

i wish he would i know i'm like let's go cut to that not the fucking water right um

kelly mcdonald much much better than the character in the novel i would agree with that if there's any real kind of and the character in the novel is is much more overwritten yes yeah oh yeah my daughter-in-law is is Beth Grant, the iconic son.

Oh, you know,

always good at playing a baddie.

Absolutely.

I'm starting to doubt your commitment to sparkle motion.

Yes.

And that is iconic behavior.

And is the

pageant head in Little Miss Sunshine as well having the freak out?

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is very good at that.

Stephen Root being Stephen Root.

Is he the actor they have worked with the most?

I was sort of trying to do a little count in my head.

Who?

Stephen Root?

I mean, he's up.

McDormand, Bussemi.

But I mean, like, McDormand Wright is obviously up there.

Right.

Root's in so many of them.

He's in

so many.

Yeah.

So many.

Remember him in Trueblood?

Fantastic and True Blood.

Isn't he incredible?

Yes.

I mean, but he's always good.

He's always good, but that was a moment where I was like, oh, I was unfamiliar with your friends.

Well, then

he'll do something that's another string to his bow.

You're kind of like, oh, I thought you played this kind of guy.

Is O-Brother his first Coins, though?

Is that possible?

It looks like it is.

And then you have Lady Killer.

He's great in that scene.

No country he is.

Scruggs.

Scruggs.

Okay.

Four.

Yeah.

Four.

I don't know.

That was a cursory glance.

Yeah.

McDonald, one thing that's interesting about her, though, is that she's sort of, because she's so peppered in the movie, she said she would like shoot for a day and then be off for like two weeks.

Yeah.

Then shoot for another day and be off for another couple weeks.

And she mostly just like hung out in South Texas.

So the energy of the character who's just sort of like, I don't totally know what this whole movie is going on here.

Right.

Something's happening.

I have no reference for, you know, privy to.

Yeah.

I mean, the other notable performance to call in this movie is like they kind of save Woody Harrelson from the wilderness with this film.

That's Katie Dark.

It's the start of

it.

It's a nice little Janet Lee, right?

Like it's a little like, oh, here comes the, he's dead, you know?

Like 10 years earlier, you're like, he would have played Llewellyn.

That's true.

And he definitely felt a little dinged at this moment.

And I remember even seeing him in the trailer and going, Woody Harrelson.

That's interesting.

They think he has that just from the

major peck and paw energy.

And they're like, he gives us

the sort of whatever, like that, that thing.

It's just like a perfect three-scene arc.

Like there's an entire mini-movie

plank.

Bubonic plague.

Yeah.

What?

Film says compared to what?

The bubonic plague.

Film costs about $30 million.

Much of the film was shot in New Mexico,

but also Texas.

Right.

As we mentioned, Marfa,

Texas.

And Marfa, famously kind of an arty town.

They got a lot of, you know, boutique-y little galleries and stuff.

They got the Prada store, right?

Of course.

Yeah.

I forgot about that, that photo.

My God.

And

right.

And of course,

there will be blood is shooting at the same time.

Yes.

And there is a time they're shooting Brolin in like remote West Texas and across the horizon is Paul shooting like oil on fire.

That's insane.

Right.

It's very cool.

It's insane.

Yeah.

But yeah, no, I mean, this, we, we've talked about a bunch of the scenes out of order, but you're really just dropped into the middle of it.

Tommy Lee Jones is head.

And then the cop trying to call in about Shiger immediately kills him.

And then you're out in the road and you're seeing the first use of the cattle gun.

Is that the right term?

Yeah, it's a cattle prod or a bolt pistol or whatever you want to call it.

I mean, just such an incredible choice.

Yeah, it's right out of the book.

Going back to the power of objects, right?

This idea that he takes this thing that is obviously

menacing and dark.

It is a thing we use to like

a super villain weapon, right?

You're like, what the fuck is that?

But yet in farming, it's used in a like, well, this is just the nature of my job.

And it's also, yeah, there's a, there's sort of a quotidian thing to it.

And also, uh, people are cattle.

Right.

Right.

They're animals.

There is an innate dehumanizing in the fact that he is using this to kill people, even though that is what is meant to do to take lives.

Yeah.

And just the eeriness of him telling the guy to stand still.

A thing to

note about this movie is that it sounds really good.

Now, all Skip Leaf Say the Ghost.

Skip Leaf Say, of course, their sound editor,

really takes some pride in this one.

They did a lot of on-set sound.

Wow.

Rather than sweetening stuff in post.

Leslie, sorry, this is a complete tangent.

You did make the acolyte.

Please help me.

When you're doing lightsabers, and the acolyte has a lot of lightsabers.

A lot of them, yeah.

You know, I just watched Dan Doordon no fucking lightsabers, which is fine.

Like, it doesn't need any lightsabers now.

Yeah, like, no, no, it's not.

Yeah.

What do they have now?

Do they have like a full lightsaber or is it like still like a glowy stick where like a lot of the work stayed on?

You know, like how much the po, yeah.

It's how complicated is it?

It's the so for our show, we were doing an immense amount of fighting and specifically Wuja.

Yes.

Influences.

And so the

action choreographer Chris Cowen and I were creating sequences where the lightsabers were used very quickly and swiftly the way they are in the prequels, right?

The prequels obviously utilize an enormous amount of VFX

to create the

lightsabers.

Those suckers, yeah, yeah.

You guys, are you familiar with the never seen them?

Have you?

Yeah, 1999?

Never.

Yes.

You and McGregor?

We've taken away.

The guy who was transponding.

So for our show, it was very different.

I won't get too in the weeds about it, but when I went to the,

I said, okay, I want specific lightsabers that can do that,

who could, that can be light and

fought with that, that quickly.

Right.

And I also want a lightsaber that has a shoto that you can unlock and pull out.

Am I incorrect?

Lost their mind.

They were like, what are you talking about?

Yeah.

We cannot create lightsabers that are that light.

That are that lightweight.

We cannot do that.

We cannot do the lights.

I also said I want the lights within,

like, I want it to be practical so that you can actually see the light on the actors' faces.

The shoto was a big deal because they were like, it doesn't make sense for the handle to be that long.

So these are guys, by the way, these are guys that I respect.

They are doing their job.

Sure.

But I did have to essentially change the way that they had been thinking about lightsabers for,

you know, the Disney

television.

Am I incorrect in thinking that in the 70s and 80s, they were basically using a lot of reflective tape to be able to light them and get the glow and then extensive post-work to do the coloring and to actually give it the sort of power it needed.

But that way, there was a kind of light source and reflective off of it.

And in the prequel era, it was more just sticks that were emanating no light, and the light was entirely a post-effective.

And therefore, you could have faster.

Famously, Ewan broke a lot of the sticks.

Yes.

And you wanted there to actually be interplay in camera between the actors and the weapons and the light.

And the sticks had to hit each other over and over again.

Right.

So these were not like we're, you know.

That is interesting.

So everything.

So here we go.

All of this lightsabers are much, much heavier than they can be for the actors.

The first round.

is actors going and action choreographers going, these are too heavy.

We cannot, the poor actors are like, I can't live to this.

Like, let alone, you know, except for Manny Jacinto, who was like,

I just, I don't know what the fuck was going on in terms of how, how deeply he was able to, to adjust and create.

that character and do that much stuff.

But so sorry, long story short, we we had to essentially create lightsabers that aren't usually lightsabers.

I just, David, that's your question.

You can't say this.

You can't agree with me.

and that's fine.

You can't say anything on this, but like a lot of the post-Disney Star Wars stuff has not had good lightsaber fighting.

Agreed.

Okay, she can't agree with me.

No, I agree.

And part of it is because the lightsabers are so heavy.

This makes sense.

Truthfully, like, that's it.

All of the sequel films, the lightsaber fights are very kind of like kind of old-fashioned medieval, like swing in these heavy fights.

They are medieval.

That's exactly it.

They're medieval.

They're not ninja or samurai.

And the kids

are removed from the high Republic shit.

Yeah, but original traders.

The cataract is samurai, but it's not, yeah.

In original trilogy, they barely move, right?

Everyone moves way too much.

And then you've got this, but it's

this tough thing of like, what exists between those two poles between Alec Guinness standing planted and just swinging one time.

Yes.

And Donald McGregor being able to do like backflips and

basically becoming devils.

And I want to say, like, these guys, I'm not talking

shit about how they do their job

and create their lightsabers.

It's just they're like, this is how they're just incredible.

They're just like, this is how lightsabers work.

Yeah.

You know, like, and they were very, very accommodating and willing to go with what my vision was.

And so I will always be grateful to them for that because I think it really overstepped what their understanding

was.

I just think the acolyte was the first.

post-Disney Star Wars thing I saw that had good lightsabers.

I would agree with that.

I'll just say it.

And, you know, some of this post-Disney Star Wars stuff stuff has not emphasized that at all.

And that's fine.

But other stuff, the lightsaber fighting has really bummed me out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I know it's hard.

It's hard.

It's hard to fucking choreograph.

Well, you got to like do all those types of things.

You know, the actors have to, you know, I was like,

we were talking before, I was not willing to do any face replacement.

You know, so a lot of these people learned their, a lot of these actors learned, you know, not the wire work, obviously, and the, you know, but, but they did a lot.

But it, right.

You're, it's a tremendous amount of work to figure out how to solve problems that you're creating.

Right?

That's filmmaking.

Yeah.

That's our job.

Like, that's exactly.

Oh my God, I've never if you want to do it right, if you're like, it needs to be this.

Yeah.

And if I'm planting my feet down and saying it's got to be this, then people are circling back and going, here's all the reasons that's important.

That is exactly what my job is.

My job is solving problems you created.

So here's my question off of this.

I think a good on-ramp back into the sound of no country, which I have a point to make about.

How weird is it to be sitting on set watching extended lightsaber fights and just hearing like,

like, obviously, so much of it is the sound of

the Don post.

And when you're there watching it and you're like, that looks great.

Does it always fundamentally feel a little silly when they're just going like, well, because what I, and I, listen, I appreciate the compliment.

And David and I, I'm so glad that you had that experience with it because that was my intention.

And I also think it was one of of the only things that really engaged with the prequels in a meaningful way.

That's what I was like, again, you know, thank you.

Fan of the acolyte over here.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

I originally a lot of work went into that, David.

A lot of like legends work went into that.

But that's weird.

I thought it was kind of.

I've never seen a Star Wars.

It was, well, of course I have.

I haven't.

I just, you know, a lot of the disappointment that I felt was that, you know, there wasn't enough

acknowledgement of that, David.

If I'm being honest, sure.

You know, I just kind of thought, you know, I put a lot of work into this, right?

And into canon and involving like video games, which by the way, are canon.

Um, and uh, you know, creating uh, well, no, it's a weird world, it's a weird world, right?

And the cartoons, the cartoons are video games,

but maybe we can bring some back, yeah, exactly.

Those video games, weirdly, are all canon, right?

And so, there were a lot of like legend stuff that I dropped in, and you know, like the tracker character is an alien from that, like anyway, point being, being, and we were engaging in those prequel kinds of, you know, all of that.

So, I was a little disappointed that the, the, the show didn't get like a, a larger sort of,

you know, what's the word, like pat on the back for that.

You know, like, I don't think people need to like fawn over it, but it just, anyway, point being, um, the, the, because you asked me about that,

I think that's how this started.

Is that you were asking me about that.

I think because the, the, the, the choreography that Chris Cowan created and then the stunt team and then first team was so astonishing that I very rarely

was kind of thinking about it.

I was just so impressed.

Like, I was just like, Jesus, this looks like the Matrix.

This looks like Mujah.

This looks like crouching tiger.

Like, this is.

So it was very goofy.

But then when you put the sound on top of it, it becomes magical.

Exactly.

Yeah.

On top of something that already was impressive.

Right.

And the thing that I think is so impressive about the sound in No Country is that it's exactly what you're saying, David.

There is not this reliance in post-production to create the sound of

New Mexico.

Yes.

You know, they are doing it right there.

I'm assuming, right?

Like the Foley is all.

I want to say one final thing about Star Wars.

Fine.

Go ahead.

Fine.

That there is always this response to any modern Star Wars thing of, that's not what we want.

If they could just do this, we'd all be happy.

Yes.

And of course, anytime that happens, there is a contingent of people who are very loud, who are equally angry.

Yes.

And go, not that, this.

Yes.

Yes.

And I have contended with friends of mine who are Star Wars fans who will say things like that, like, I genuinely think

it is somewhat unsolvable, right?

Yeah, I wouldn't.

You can't make great Star Wars fans.

No, I wouldn't think

that your relationship to Star Wars is so intense in that way.

And I think that's why it's hard for them to reach out in terms of an audience because so many people who are not Star Wars fans, you know, I would say to them, like, well, okay, before I started writing, it's like, okay, well, why are you not a Star Wars fan?

And they would say, well, I just don't know enough about the stuff.

Yep.

And I was kind of like, God, that is so the opposite of, of 1977.

And there is this weird battle between, is the goal here to make something for everyone?

Is the goal here to make something for people who don't think they like Star Wars?

Is the goal to make something for specific subsections of fandom?

And all of it gets this weird, intense response.

Yeah.

There has not been any ability to allow Star Wars to become a thing that can be prismatic

and not have to represent all of of it at once because the magic of those original movies is like, holy shit, it's everything all at the same time.

That's exactly right.

Which is impossible to replicate because it didn't exist before then.

Yes, it was lightning and a bottle shit.

Right.

And all of this exists in the wake of it.

The clearest distillation of this I have ever seen, and then we will get back onto No Country for Man, is the thing where they discovered the fucking 70 millimeter print of the original theatrical release of Star Wars.

And they were like, we didn't think this existed.

And they screened it in London at the BFI.

And Kathleen Kennedy showed up.

And she she was like, we've been searching for this.

We're so happy and they screened it and like five different journalists wrote reviews where they were like, it looked like shit.

And these are the exact people for 50 years have been like, why won't they give us a theatrical cut?

Get rid of the special editions.

If they just gave us theatrical, we'd be happy to process it.

This fucking sucks.

There's just like dog shit.

There are certain things, because you'll watch those despecialized editions of your, where you're like, oh, fuck that.

Oh, the X-Wings look like that.

I kind of got used to them looking like this.

You know, there's things where you're like, I don't need there to be a looney tune playing out in the background with a fucking cartoon.

Stuff George undeniably improved.

Right.

But then there's, right, there's just some of the sort of like little bits of cleanup.

You're like, oh, yeah.

But now that dialogue has shifted to like, what we want is someone cutting some of George's tails.

I'll say it.

I'll say it.

I'll say it.

I always say this is just what they want is to be 12 again.

That's whatever.

So do I allow it.

Yeah.

So same.

Same.

Here's what I'll say about the sound of no country.

The other big part of this and why.

My allowance was like two pounds a week or whatever.

I mean, when I was 12, I don't think I was getting up to much.

You know, it took five years to buy a CD-ROM.

I remember doing that math, like getting a catalog and being like, how much do CD-ROMs cost?

Five years.

Yeah.

Oh, God.

That's true.

I'd get a fucking Anton Sugur pocket full of change every week.

I was getting like.

I'd say to my dad, I'd be like, isn't my allowance like 45 cents?

And he'd be like, I don't know.

It's what I have on here.

Yeah.

The day you remember to ask.

This movie has no score until the end credits.

That's the other part of it.

Super well sounded.

It stands out even more because the sound, the noises, and especially a movie that has less dialogue than their films usually have.

The sounds are the soundtrack.

But they must be augmented in some way, right?

You know what I mean?

Like they're not.

No, for sure.

So it's orchestrated, but that's true.

I just typically say magic is that he knows how to just over crank everything just a little bit

to make it feel hyper-real.

Yes, yes.

And in the vacuum of stoic characters, lack of Carter Purwell's score, that becomes even more evocative.

Right.

I see what you're saying.

Yeah.

But it is a movie where you're just like, everyone walks differently.

You

hear and feel the differences in everyone's footsteps.

Yeah.

You know, and every surface they're standing on.

It's just like incredible, incredible shit.

And it's part of what makes this movie

like eerie in such a sustained way for me.

Yeah.

Is you know, I think they showed to Carl Burwell and he's like, this doesn't need music.

Right.

They were not intending it to not have a score.

And he was like, I think the best thing I can do here is not do anything.

Right.

I'll write something for the end credits if you want, but like, yeah, I didn't realize that.

Yeah.

There's a sustained tension from being like, why isn't this being cut by anything else?

Tito's handmade vodka is America's favorite vodka for a reason.

From the first legal distillery in Texas, Tito's is six times distilled till it's just right and naturally gluten-free, making it a high-quality spirit that mixes with just about anything.

From the smoothest martinis to the best Bloody Marys, Tito's is known for giving back, teaming up with nonprofits to serve its communities and do good for dogs.

Make your next cocktail with Tito's, distilled and bottled by Fifth Generation Inc., Austin, Texas, 40% alcohol by volume, savor responsibly.

David.

Shh.

Okay, okay.

I'll be very

quiet.

Oh, I'm used to it.

Producer Ben is sleeping.

Oh,

Hazzy, Hazzy boy is

Hazzy.

Getting some Z's.

Getting some Z.

What's he sleeping on?

He's sleeping on one of the new beds we got from Wayfair for the studio.

Look, apparently, we need to talk about how when you hear the word game day,

you might not think Wayfair, but you should, because Wayfair is the best kept secret for incredible and affordable game day fines.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Absolutely.

And just try to, David, just if you could please maintain a slightly quiet, we don't have to go full whisper.

I just want to remind you that Haas is sleeping.

I mostly just think of Wayfair as some website where you can get basically anything.

Yeah, of course.

But Wayfair is also the ideal place to get game day essentials, bigger selection, created collections, options for every budget slash price point you want to make like a sort of man cake

okay fine okay all right sorry david you have like basically a football team worth of family at home you got a whole team to cheer up this is true you need cribs your place must be lousy with cribs i do have fainting beds i have cribs yeah sconces chaise lounges i'm low on sconces maybe maybe it's time to pick up a this is the kind of thing that would make your home team cheer Look, I'm just going to say that Wayfair is your trusted destination for all things game day.

From coolers and grills to recliners and slow cookers.

Shop, save, and score

today at Wayfair.com.

That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com.

Wayfair, every style, every home.

David, there's only one shame to this ad raid.

Don't wake Hazzy.

There's only one shame to this ad raid.

That I didn't find out about this in time before I already purchased coolers, grills, folding chairs, patio heaters, recliners, barware, slow cookers, sports-themed decor, merch for my favorite teams, and more.

If all

teams Cleveland Browns, of course, Bonte Mac, no matter what.

Okay, that's the end of the app.

No country for all, Penn.

Um,

what do we want to say about it that we haven't been saying already?

We've gone for two hours.

You're talking about the uh ethnic ambiguity of Shakur as a character, right?

Right, yeah, something in hiring a Spaniard in a western set in Texas and then basically giving him like Tim Burton makeup on top of how weird his styling is and the hair and the outfit and everything.

Yeah.

And just being like, man, this guy's wearing a lot of dark colors for like brutal son.

It's very true.

I'm like looking at that image on my iPad right here.

And you're like, they like pancake him.

with paleness right on top of his natural skin tone and then this like deep redness around his eyes and his lips.

Oh, I didn't even think about that.

Yeah.

That also makes it feel like, is this guy a ghost?

Like, how is he not getting sunburned?

That's true.

Yeah.

There is this like otherworldly thing to him, which we've already talked about.

But I think like in terms of the thrust of the narrative, which I think we're, you know, going to chat about now is like, hopefully.

No, but

meaning like, I think, you know, there has been this online debatey idea that sugar is,

you know, Satan satan is the is the personication is joe black you know it's like the personication of jeff uh death sure

you know you guys please make that the title of this personification of jeff yes i i go back and forth every time i watch this in whether i think

he is if not supernatural at least explicitly kind of allegorical or i would agree with that actually meant to be processed as a real human being.

I think the ending says human being, and I agree with you that it's allegorical.

Yes.

It's somehow holding both simultaneously.

Like, Sugar, here's my thing.

The movie begins with him getting arrested and strangling the deputy.

The deputy like sits him down.

And like, you know, so right.

The big thing in this movie is it's like this country, it's just not for old men anymore.

If that makes sense.

That's

a big tip.

It's Tommy Lee Jones basically just brushing against evil or whatever, but also just brushing against a world where he's just like, I don't know where to begin with this.

I don't know how to, this isn't like crime like that sheriffs deal with where it's like, hey, why'd you do that to that guy?

Well, he stole my, you know, all right, well, you can't do that.

He even shares that his grandfather and his father were both sheriffs and they used to not even wear a gun.

Right.

Right.

Like that, it's like you, and like everything about Tommy Lee Jones' character, it's like he knows everybody.

It's every reason.

He knows everybody.

he knows everyone's name.

Like, you know, when he's at the diner, he knows the name of the waitress.

When he sees Llewellyn's car, he's like, I know this car.

This is Llewellyn's car.

I'm like, bitch, you must, he must be in charge of like a thousand acres of land.

Like, it's like deep South Texas, like, you know, but, but nonetheless, like, he's whatever, you know, he's like basically trying to sort of like keep an eye on the community.

I mean, he has the line, the exchange with Garrett Dillahunt, I think it's when they go to the first crime scene and he goes, so it seems like they died of natural causes.

And Garrett Dillahunt says, like, there are like 40 gunshots here.

And he goes, Well, natural in relation to the line of work they were in, right?

The idea that this guy is like, not numb, but it's like he's seen it all.

But the

great line that I think is in the trailer where, like, Dillahunt's like, Do you think he's got any notion of the sort of people who are chasing him?

He's like, He ought to.

He's seen the same things I have.

And it's certainly made an impression.

An impression on me.

But this guy is increasingly going, like, this is not something I understand.

There is something happening here that feels like emblematic of a cultural.

Yeah, I do think we need to keep moving forward, obviously.

But in the book, it's very, it's explained later on that he's a veteran.

Right.

So, in a way, saying like, this level of violence, I can't understand.

I'm a little bit like,

but you can, you know, like, he can, but it's also something he's so haunted by.

Yes.

Right.

And the desertion and all that.

Right.

And he's just like, and right.

In the book, there's this specific memory he has of of this terrible thing that happened during the war.

And like, but in this, it's just like, what happened?

But we don't even know, but like a drug deal was going to happen

and something went wrong.

We don't know what, right?

There's a shootout that Luanza and some sponsors

hunting.

Leaving behind an incredible amount of drugs.

Yes.

And a bad array of guns.

Yes.

Quite a lot of guns.

Yeah.

And

it's one of those things that like no one is even, nobody cares that this happened.

If that makes sense.

Yes.

Everyone is basically like, basically, some version of a cost of doing business thing.

Right.

You know, natural causes.

Right.

Yeah.

And Llewellyn is foolish enough to try to skim the money.

Yes.

And, but, like, it's like, you don't feel like Sheriff Bell is like, I'll solve this.

Yeah.

Right.

Like, he almost immediately, he's basically just like, I know Llewellyn's going to die.

I'm going to try and find him.

I think Brolin's first line of dialogue in the movie is he's, you know, slowly surveying this situation.

He finds the dying guy.

He finds the bag.

He's sitting down at the tree next to this dying guy.

Or no, that guy's fully dead, right?

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

And he opens the bag.

He sees the money.

He lifts his head up and then he goes, yeah.

And it's such a good piece of writing that this guy's like, of course it's a bag of money.

Brolin claims that he improvised that.

That rock.

That makes sense.

Good for him.

And then similarly, when he wakes up in the middle of the night and it's like,

yeah.

You know, to go get the water, this guy's kind of silently in this monosyllabic conversation with himself.

Yes.

About, like, of course, I got to do this.

Or, of course, this is what would happen.

Yeah.

I think, as you're saying, this is the kind of thing that Tamili Jones has seen before.

What's activating him isn't, I've never seen this level of violence before.

It's this doesn't make sense to me.

Well, and it's, I think that there's this clash internally between

Shigura is killing so many people he doesn't need to kill.

Right?

Yes.

And it's like he's trying to, Tammy Lee Jones is trying to solve solve this as a guy trying to clean up loose ends of a crime gone wrong.

And yet Shigur is also kind of behaving like a serial killer.

Yes, he is.

And it's like, if a guy is a professional, why would he be this sloppy?

Yeah.

That's sort of what is unspoken of like, it doesn't make sense the level and nature of the violence that is unnecessary.

Right.

And like the Winnie Harrelson character who shows up later feels like a more old school, whatever you want to call it, contract killer, fixer, get it over, right?

Where he tries to solve the problem of being like, can you just, can we just fucking figure this out?

Right.

Can we be gentlemen about

the murder?

Like, let's get over it.

Yeah.

Sugar seems to have some weird, you know, like, you know, code in his brain.

Yes.

Because, like, why does he kill Kelly McDonald?

He doesn't.

He just said that he was going to.

He claims that he told.

Llewellyn that he was going to.

Right.

But it's like, like, obviously, the money is not a problem anymore.

She doesn't fucking know anything.

Yeah.

No, and so and like he has to go out of his way to do it.

So many of the people he cattle guns, he doesn't need to kill them in order to get what he needs out of them.

And then there are other people.

But then there are other people that he lets live.

Yes.

And one time he flips a coin, but other times he just clearly has this moment of like, yeah, I mean, whatever.

There's this woman in the hotel where he tries to get information.

She's like this great

love her.

Great carrot.

She's like perfect.

She looks like she's like painted into the floor you know what i mean like

she's just this like she just sort of swivels around like she's like a costume character at a beam party i was gonna say she's an electronic robot yeah

like can't stand up yeah but she's almost i'm not giving out she's almost like intimidating like like him in this weird way yes and he almost respects her at first yes i think he fully respects her he's like of course i could kill this woman but that actually might be a problem Did you not hear what I said?

I think too that she's, you know, it's when,

I don't know, know, you guys, I don't know physics.

I didn't know we were going to have to, but it's like, you know, force meets immovable objects.

Yes.

Yes.

So in a way, like scientifically, he can't continue.

I mean, Gene sort of folds right away, right?

He's just like, ugh, you know, and she's like, get the fuck out of here.

Which like disarms him that Gene doesn't have more pride.

That's true.

Yeah, that's true.

Shigur.

We don't even know who hires him, but we assume it's one of the cartel.

Sure.

And I assume the other cartel or someone else is the people who've hired the various Mexican gangsters that eventually do kill Llewellyn.

Sure.

Like, I don't think they're in league.

Maybe they are.

I have no idea.

Shigur gets the money.

Well, there's also the Steven Root Harrelson continuum.

They, right, right.

I don't know who they.

I have no clue.

Someone mentions, like, did you hire a bunch of Mexican gangsters?

And like, they're like, yeah.

So, like, I guess it's like the threat.

And Shigur is like, I am the instrument for this.

You know what I mean?

Like, he has.

He does get the money, which I guess is the goal.

Right.

That's the fundamental thing that's wanted of him.

Yes.

He's the only person who figures out that it's in the duct.

Right.

This all happens off screen, essentially, but that is what happens.

Which another fucking great marker is of him.

Not necessarily

the trails in the dust in the vent of the fingers.

Yes, I love that.

Talking for later.

That's where he hides it.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

The whole thing, like the tent poles and stuff, it's just exactly what you said.

It's like you learn about the characters by what they're doing.

Yeah.

you know yeah that's well right exactly he's an idiot for going back with the water but god that vent thing was smart and you establish

practical right like because he's like a welder which they don't really establish yes but like that is yes yeah yeah you you establish earlier that llewellyn's or not llewellyn sugar is going to use the coins for the screws on the vent so that later you can just cut to a shot of coins on a desk table yeah and know what it means.

Like, that's the shit in this movie that when I was 18, I was like, holy fuck is shit filmmaking, where you can, like, build up a language where then, like, 40 minutes later, you cut to an insert shot of an animate object.

Yeah.

And go, like, I understood exactly what's happening in the last 20 minutes without a line of dialogue.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

So, right.

Like, Llewellyn, he's kind of stupid for going back with the...

He's stupid to take the money to, I would say.

He doesn't really.

Opportunity knocks.

I know, but he takes the bag and he he doesn't think that hard about it.

He probably should search the bag or get the money out of the bag and put it in something else.

Dump it out and make a return.

It's like there's like

20 dead people.

There's not like two dead people.

No, there's a lot.

There's so many vehicles.

There's a lot.

And so he

like clearly is kind of overwhelmed by it, which I would be too.

He's like, I'm just going to go home and maybe like, you know, fuck my wife.

But also not fuck my wife.

Make a joke about fucking my wife.

I think he fucks her.

I think he definitely

fucks her.

Interesting.

I also think.

I mean, her face, I think, says it all.

She's like, you know, got that little smile.

But I view that as her being disappointed that he's not going to follow through on what he's saying.

I think he's going to.

I think he fucks him.

We're moving on.

I think, unlike a lot of Cohen idiots.

who get in over their head and refuse to acknowledge it, right?

He's constantly feeling the pressure of,

am I in too deep, right?

Yeah.

Versus these guys who are just like, I'm going to get this.

Right.

I'm going to make this all work.

And it also is the guy lives in a trailer, but he is not set up with a pressure like, say,

fucking Blame H.

Macy and Fargo, where it's like, this guy needs the money now.

Right.

He can still live.

It's this sense of opportunity, but it's not a like, I.

can't turn this down.

Yeah.

Or at least that is not explicitly said to us, which also makes it this game for him of like, is this worth the squeeze?

I actually didn't realize like how similar he is to other until you just said that.

Like even Lebowski, it's like, I'm getting pulled into a thing I don't know.

Yep.

I just wanted my rug back.

Yeah.

That's really interesting.

And I say I think they love when it's, it's a confident moron, which he isn't quite.

He's like not the smartest guy, but he's smarter than a lot of their protagonists.

And he also

is more scared than a lot of their protagonists, right?

Even though he is a fairly stoic man, you're feeling the tension of him in his situation, not knowing if he's going to be able to pull this off.

He doesn't pull it off, by the way.

He falls the screws tightening.

Yeah, by the way, just spoiler.

He does that.

When they sick the dog on him and he's swimming through the thing and then he shoots him,

that was the kind of what you were saying about the tracks being that was the moment for me.

Yes.

Where I was like, masterful.

Like as the sun's coming up, all of that is timed timed so that by the time he shoots the jockets Yes, yeah, it's it's just like exquisite

unload the final

You saying that

TLG TLJ's character is coded as a veteran.

It's also interesting that Brolin is as well, but in like wildly different wars

Brolin served in Nam, TLJ served in World War II.

Right.

So they both have a certain mentality and instincts and resources that come out of that experience, but in like wildly different situations that would have been their role.

Tommy Lee Jones is also part of a quote-unquote righteous war exactly like fought in the world.

That is evil.

And then Josh Prolin's like, I was sent to a terrible place where I suffered, which is what the experience was.

Right now I'm in a trailer.

Yes.

Right.

And, you know, I came back and everyone thought that sucked.

I mean, there's the moment, obviously, where he has the bond with the other nom veteran who like lets him go through because he's

who doesn't want to let him through because he's worried he's a Mexican right and then he's basically able to flash the Nom thing right yes wish I could do that in the book he says just in a cool movie way in the book he says you can't go to war like that about Vietnam you can't go to war without God I don't know what is going to happen when the next one comes I surely don't it's a guy who just quietly is sort of like World doesn't really make sense and I kind of got a shitty hand without being self-pitying.

Yeah.

Which is why I think he sees a bag of money and it's like, not don't don't I deserve this?

No, yeah.

But like, is there any reason for me not to try it?

Right, right.

And even knowing the inherent.

That's the Ben.

That's the Ben feeling.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Give it a whirl.

But I would, of course, then say,

well, that's.

And then he ended up dead.

Yeah, he does die.

I'm so sorry.

Here's the money back.

That's what you would say.

I'm so sorry.

Here's the money.

I'm really, really sorry.

I wanted the money because there's so much money and it's all in just one little bag.

Yeah.

And I had a $100 bills.

I so wanted it so desperately so I could use it to buy things and such.

Perhaps you understand.

I like goods and services.

I say Ton Shigura is like, let me just unscrew my little

oxygen tank.

And I'm like, you see, the money you can buy.

Food, toys, clothes.

I mean, there's so many things.

The way Shigura is set up from the beginning of the movie, you're like giving him the money back wouldn't solve anything.

Yeah, it wouldn't.

And you already know that.

And even Carson Lane.

Here is a man who you could not buy off for any amount, right?

You couldn't say to him, like, hey, I'll give you the money back plus 10 million.

What do you tries?

He's like, wouldn't you rather just we split it rather than whatever they're paying you?

Right.

And he's like, that's not how I like to live my life.

Yeah.

He's like, nah, it's not going to happen.

Yeah.

What I like to do is have the biggest silencer you ever saw and put it on a fucking shotgun.

Yeah.

Right.

There's the silencer with the shotgun is also like a great story because not unlike the Star Wars, the lightsaber story.

It's like, you have to create that.

Right.

You know, there aren't like silencers for shotguns.

Like, it's fucking hanging out.

Yes.

Betty Rocks.

My favorite.

My favorite kills in the movie is shooting the guy behind the shower curtain.

I just like shooting someone where it's such a fucking big gun that, like, it's like, you know, like the shower curtain goes like, woof.

Yeah.

But also, the kettle gun's kind of ingenious because the first couple scenes they survey, they're just like, what do you mean there's no bullet?

Right.

Right.

There's this bizarreness that they start to figure out through like the damage created in other spaces of like, oh, it is kind of a perfect weapon.

He also never uses it on screen.

He used it once, the guy at the start.

The very beginning.

Yeah.

No, no, that's what I mean.

But yeah, besides that guy, the only issue with it is

hanging over the movie the whole time.

He's carrying it more.

Like it's a fucking oxygen tank.

Right, right.

Right, right, right.

I mean, look, he's a bit extra.

not to uh drag him.

I mean, like, for example, when he needs to get some bandages, he explodes an entire car to distract people.

Sure.

Like, he's stealing from the pharmacy.

Oh, I understand.

I just feel like there's other ways to approach that of like, maybe I'll steal some money or maybe I'll like, you know what I mean?

He's like, blow up this car.

But isn't that what's kind of breaking Tommy Lee Jones?

Is like, I don't understand when this guy is using a scalpel and when he's using a machete because he does both.

Sometimes it feels so strategic and thoughtful, and sometimes it is so fucking messy.

He is perhaps just a messy bitch who lives for the drum.

He's an idea.

Yeah, he might might actually be.

And he is having a brat summer.

He is having a brat summer.

Can we talk about the milk?

Yeah.

He goes to Llewellyn's trailer.

He blows the bloody bolt off.

Thunk walks around, nothing in there, sits down, jug of milk.

It's a nice.

In case you weren't sure he was a psycho.

Another great yelling shot.

Yes.

He sits there with the jug of milk.

He's sitting motionless.

He hasn't even taken a sip yet.

And then it cuts to the reverse shot, which is his reflection in the television.

And then we see it again with Tommy Lee Jones.

Yes.

And it is this interesting moment where like Sheriff Bell is clearly like, he looked at himself in this mirror.

Like, you know, he's putting himself in the shoes of the guy.

Yeah.

And he's just kind of like, I wonder.

You know, like, it's just in that sugar moment, you're like, what is he doing?

Why is he just sitting here with a jug of milk, not watching TV?

I think his brain's like, he's looking at himself.

You know?

Yeah.

I think he's just rebooting.

Yeah.

It does reflect the next target.

But like they just, I think they just wisely avoid the Terminator thing.

There's moments like him blowing up the car with, you know, walking with the explosion behind him.

Like, right, he's like a robot.

But not always.

And he's not indestructible.

They throw it off the hump with his look.

They're always finding ways to stop him from feeling, yes, completely T-800.

Yeah.

And he's not invulnerable, as you said.

Here's my take.

You just give me a crack at the Terminator franchise.

Now, what I'm going to do is I'm going to use Terminator 2 as my jumping off point.

We'll make a sequel to that one.

I know we're going to ignore the rest of

how it's hard to please Star Wars fans.

But Terminator, I think we can

figure it out.

Steven Cross in Arrested Development talking about non-monogamy, where he's like,

it could work for us.

I'm just like, the sixth time.

Guys, if we just commit to not leaving this room for 45 minutes, I think we can walk out.

I think we can crack it.

It's 45 and we're done.

And we're done.

Here's how we take Arnie's in it.

We'll figure out how to

bang a Terminator.

There's a bag of money.

And there'll be a new Terminator.

And what will his vibe be?

I don't know.

He's bugs or something.

We'll figure that out later.

His vibe is something other than Arnold.

Has anyone done liquid?

Oh, no, yeah, somebody did that one.

What if he's a gas Terminator?

No one's done gas.

Yeah.

Who's playing John Connor?

Someone.

Who's an okay actor who nobody really cares about?

Let's get that guy.

Ryan Phillip.

I'm talking about someone zero people would be excited about.

What did I just watch?

Oh, I know what you did last summer.

I just got a book.

He was a fucking filet back then.

He is a piece of meat.

He was, but also that movie is.

Oh, he's an asshole.

Want to meet the most repellent thing you've ever seen.

But then he gets eaten by crabs.

Yeah.

Great stuff.

You have not seen the new one, right?

I have not.

It is funny how they're just like, we're just not even going to invoke him, basically.

Oh, yeah, he doesn't come up.

No, it's like Prince and

Love Hewitt are in it.

Right.

And Geller is like very much plucked.

Have you seen it?

I have.

Is Prince still a fisherman?

My favorite thing about those two movies is that Freddie Prince Jr.

plays a working fisherman in those movies.

Okay, Mild Spoilers.

He's like, I got to go fish.

I'm like, you have never, you don't know what a fish is.

Mild spoilers?

He owns a like fisherman's bar.

Okay.

I think it is implied that he still fishes, but the primary business seems to be.

That is so good to know for Canon.

Yes.

Yeah.

He still has a boat.

He still seems to fish.

Good, good.

But it feels like the town has become very touristy, and he now runs like the locals bar that has the fishing ephemera in it.

And the Billy Blue side of the boat is hung up above the bar.

Prince

looks pretty fucking fantastic.

And he's aged really nicely.

He has aged.

He's good looking guy.

He's beautifully.

Yeah.

There was a lot.

I've been like watching it, and I'm like,

Prince have like a Brolin moment.

He's not that good an actor.

He's not that good.

And yet I was watching it and I was like, someone could cast him really well.

Yeah.

He kind of works in this.

But Cohen, brother.

He's an iconic Star Wars character.

Yes.

He's Kanan Jarris.

Yeah.

He's very good in that show.

Okay.

He's a good voice.

Yeah, he has a really, sorry, we'll go off this in a second, but

there's that video of him, David,

talking about Star Wars.

Talking about Star Wars.

He loves Star Wars.

He has a really great take on it.

He's fun on one of the Mass Effect games, too.

He's a good voice actor.

What were you going to say, Ben?

I have a question about the motel where he hides.

It's just, this is like no country for old men, you know, Ben?

Yeah, that's what the movie's about.

Okay, the motel where he hides it in a duct and then he rents another room that's like connected to the duct.

But he gets found out, right?

Yes.

Because he sees that the curtain has been moved.

Right.

I'm assuming that's the

Mexican

whoever's looking for him.

Right.

Like the other party trying to track him down.

Do they have the device or are they just figuring out that he's there?

That's a good question.

I've never been able to like determine because Shagur obviously has the receiver for the track.

Oh, right, right.

Right.

I don't

think they would have one as well.

They're maybe tracking Shigur.

They might be following his trail.

Yeah.

I mean, is the scene with the suits, the scene with the suits is

after that?

Or just meaning, I wonder if that answers your

question.

Because if he's,

I think it is.

I think that we see, I think we see suits

before that.

Suits have a tracker.

I wonder if Mexicans also have a.

Oh, sure.

Because they're two separate.

They might, I think there's some dialogue that alludes to this.

Yeah.

But they also could have talked to that another great

just random character, the woman that runs that motel.

Maybe they went in and talked to her as anyone got in a room kind of thing.

Sure.

Yeah, it could be that simple.

There's the moment when he's doing the air duct trick for the first time.

Yes.

And he's sitting in the room with the gun loaded, waiting for him with the lights off, right?

And he sees the shadow of the footsteps underneath.

He's hearing it, and then he's seeing it.

And then he's seeing him continue to walk.

But before that moment, when he's hearing the steps off into the distance,

he calls.

You're like, why the fuck is he picking up the phone?

He calls the front desk, hears the deadline,

right?

And then hangs up.

And it's just like, the guy's smart enough to know.

Yeah.

I've studied this guy's behavior.

Yeah.

He's killing the woman at the front desk.

If he's already here, she's dead.

Right.

Yeah.

There's just stuff like that.

I love.

I love it too.

I feel like he hasn't encountered sugar at that point.

So there is this like

anticipation too with the audience of like, here we go.

Right.

Here we go.

They they never

they shoot at each other, but they don't really interact.

It's after that scene is right.

Yes.

But they're

not quite far from each other.

They talk on the phone, though.

Yep.

And then after he talks to Sugar, he talks to Harrelson and he's like, you talk too much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is kind of funny.

But yeah, he does.

And Sugar does not get him.

I mean, it's just so funny.

I'm sorry to keep hitting that point.

We just don't get that weird satisfaction.

We don't get the defeat of Sugar, obviously.

It is a great shootout, man.

It is.

He's really too smart.

You know, for all of his stupidity, he is a smart guy when he's driving that truck and he's watching the bullet

holes and the, you know, he's using the rearview mirror and everything.

Yeah.

Yes.

And just the way they build the tension with the increasing amount of bullet holes around him, but you can never quite track where sugar is.

You can track the trajectory of the gun,

but you're never like seeing him, you know?

You don't get into his.

I think, if I'm remembering correctly, you don't really get into his POV.

I don't think so, and so therefore, it is also a subversion of hero versus villain because usually you'd pop over to villain, and then you pop over to hero, you know.

Instead, Llewellyn dies, and Sugar sort of you know, completes his mission and moves on, wounded.

And then Tom Bell sits down with his

dad, I believe so, played by the great

Barry Corbin.

Yes.

Who is an actor I mostly think of as playing like Yee-Haw Texas guys.

He was on Northern Exposure.

He's great on Northern Exposure.

But like, he would just like, he was the guy who could swing in wearing a cowboy hat in your TV show being like, wow, from Texas.

And he's good at it.

And in this, he's like pretty, you know,

like.

calm and quiet.

Beaten down.

And awesome.

Yeah.

And then Tom just tells his wife about some stories, some dreams he had and then he woke up and it cuts to black and i just remember my audience being like what what the fuck are you talking about that's it right they're already i didn't even know he was done was he he's done he's done talking when llewellyn dies it feels like okay so i guess i was wrong but the movie is building to a showdown between tommy lee jones and bardem right right right right right yeah and then you're like no it's ending on the guy's dream and it feels like he's sort of like hanging mid-sentence yeah tess harper who is so goodness good-ness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

With just a few moments from Tender Mercies, one of my favorite movies.

And they also off-screen do a lot of hand stuff, I will say, in the film.

I have no doubt they're fucking.

They have a very happy physical relationship.

Oh, my God.

They've got a great relationship.

Yes.

I just love it that she's like, oh, great dream.

Want to do some hand stuff?

So when you're saying...

The masterpiece personal question, right?

And part of it is that it, when you're posing that, and part of it is that this is something they don't originate.

It is something they are assigned to.

It is something they connect with.

And yeah, like I said, because, you know, so much of the dialogue is Cormac McCarthy and not them, it does feel like this is the, this is the film of just, you know, we are master filmmakers.

Right.

And is it just like skillful interpretation of someone else's voice?

I do think this movie kind of in its sparseness and in a way they maybe couldn't do if they were writing it themselves from scratch, identifies

some key through line in their worldview that certainly is reflected in all their films.

And when people, especially the early parts of their career, would attack them for being kind of like nasty, cynical, just like setting up idiots to be punished, you know, in like a cool and kind of merciless world.

Yeah.

I do think

there is this thing of like, are they just nihilists?

Does none of this matter to them?

They make these movies that are touching on this kind of darkness.

And I do think this movie is kind of their retort.

There's a reason why I think Fargo, if not their masterpiece, is their definitive film because it is the ultimate balancing of everything they do.

Right.

Yeah.

But part of what makes Fargo so

powerful.

is that they're placing this like undeniable figure of good at the center of it who is cutting through this.

Yes.

And he sort of is that, but he's so, so tired.

Right.

And he's not going to finish.

Marge is someone whose life lies ahead of her.

She's about to have a child.

There's a new exciting chapter that's unfolding.

Yeah.

He just got the stamp, right?

Yes.

There's all this sort of shit.

And she is sort of like comically good.

The movie has that lightness.

She is comically.

Yeah.

Yes.

Even in its darkest moments, it's funny.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I would agree.

Her goodness is funny.

Yeah.

And so it, it is,

if not obscuring their real feelings, I think it was

adding to this sense of, are they just playing with toys, right?

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

How much of this is just like genre riffs for them?

It's just them.

Yes.

Them doing this stripped down, like

subversive kind of genre deconstruction.

Right.

They're doing a more focused version of the kind of thing at the center.

I would agree with that.

Fargo.

That's something I think that I've learned in doing this with you guys.

They're re-expressing something they're re-expressing something and they're doing yes the pinnacle of what they do right and because they can't rely on witty dialogue yes and you know like you said a character like marge that will just like cut through all the bullshit um

yeah i would say i would go so far as to say it's a masterpiece because if i use the criteria of the ending of the movie um it did leave me like you know mulholland driver um, Zodiac, where I was like, wow, it's also kind of twinned with the ending of Fargo that also comes back to a couple having a conversation, yes, yes, right, in their comfortable domesticity.

Yeah, but for him, it's like this moment of extreme vulnerability.

It feels like, like, Tommy Lee Jones is transparent in this final scene.

He's incredible.

There is an understated sense of deep sadness and him feeling unmoored and vulnerability in him even sharing this with her that the scariest thing he could do is ever share his abstract thoughts yes he has not been able to untangle yet even to the person closest in his life in what seems to be a very healthy marriage right absolutely and it's sort of this sense of like unlike fargo this is not a universe in which marge is able to

stop yes yeah evil right obviously as she puts it all that for a little bit of money she didn't stop it in time a lot lot of damage was done.

Was done.

Many people

died.

But ultimately, like there was some sense of justice at some point.

Yes.

And she gets to look at Peter Stormera at the back of the car and say, and for what?

A little bit of money.

A little bit of money.

She at least hopes that that stays in his head.

Versus here, the fact that the three people never meet, you kind of come back to Tommy Lee Jones being like, to what end?

Yeah, and you're right.

The villain, you know, Stormar in Fargo is kind of the prototype for Sugar.

You're right.

Because, you know, just, you know, Terminator-esque, has his own code.

It's not really even about the trajectory of what he's planned to do.

But then in that film, he gets, you know, his comeuppance or whatever.

And in this film, you know, you just, you don't know the fate of this guy.

Right.

And

in the dreams that Tommy Lee Jones is having, I think he's trying to reckon with

these cycles of the stories we tell ourselves of like lawmen and bad guys

in a kind of idea of an American West where these things can balance themselves out.

And he's just sort of like, are we moving into a realm where, for better or worse,

we don't fit into the model anymore?

And then who am I?

Yeah.

I think what's interesting, like in terms of the thesis of the movie, and sort of

I think what you take away from you from it at the end

is that, uh,

you know, that all the characters sort of get this like,

you know, meh, you know, like, like, who knows, you know, he, you know, I'm dead.

But I also heard that from somewhere that Tommy Lee Jones did that in one take

and only did, you know, one of them and that he also did the fugitive, sort of famous, you know, after the train crash speech speech, also in one take.

Like, he'd say, if he just says,

I think I go, yeah, we don't need enough.

Yeah, we don't need to do this again.

We get it.

Like, he's just, he's totally embodied the character, and therefore, the, the, the, I almost said lyrics, but the dialogue is just, he's just speaking it, you know?

Yeah, in the final shot,

his face to me is so heartbreaking where he he looks so worried at how she is going to respond and what she thinks about what he just said.

Yeah.

I think that's a good thing.

It was funny.

I had the weirdest dream.

Like I was in class and I had to take a test and then I wasn't wearing any clothes.

And then my teeth fell out.

She's like, yeah, it's pretty Sander textbook stuff.

You're worried about aging.

Yeah.

I had the weirdest nightmare.

Donald Trump became president.

Fantasy.

Don't badmouth David's guy.

I'm sorry, David.

This film, I'm just moving us along.

Yes.

Premiered at the Cannes Film Festival in 2007.

I'm noting that only because it's an insane Cannes, because No Country for Old Men is there.

Zodiac is there.

Stephen Frears, in all his wisdom and his jury, gave both of those films zero awards.

Why did I think No Country won directors?

Because the Cohens have one directorate.

Yeah, but not for that one.

Okay.

For that one, they won Buff Kiss.

And it's like four months,

three weeks, two days won The Palm.

That's a good movie.

That's obviously a very like powerful festival film.

Like it's

for a a zodiac.

Yeah.

And it is an excellent, impossible to imagine watching a second time movie.

But if you see it at a festival out of nowhere,

it hits you like a ton of birds.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it is a little rude that it just went over, like, it got well received.

The critics liked it there, but it didn't win anything.

Paramount Vantage wanted to film, release this in August, which is

fucking crazy.

Crazy.

They were going off of the success in the previous year of the Constant Gardner, which of course did win an awesome.

We've talked about this sort of like August, sort of Labor Day-esque, like focus features adult thriller slot where you could have like kind of a modest counter program.

Yes, that's true.

The movie is not quite that true.

Right.

The Cohens, perhaps wisely, felt strongly about releasing this film in the fall.

Yeah.

It came out in November

and was their biggest hit of the moment.

True Grid eclipses it, but it made 74 million domestic and 171 worldwide.

And it won Best Picture at the Academy Awards.

I don't know if you know.

Director, screenplay, supporting actor.

That's right.

It lost for sound editing, sound mixing, cinematography, and editing.

I watched the three speeches

this morning.

Their speeches.

Joel tells the story that's very funny about.

Or no, for screenplay, he says, he says the Cornwall McCarthy and Homer thing, right?

Yeah.

And then Ethan gets up and he goes, like,

I

thank you.

And he walks off stage.

And then when they win best director, Joel tells the story about them growing up making movies together and how it feels crazy that their life doesn't feel different from when they were and they're like, we're happy you let us play in this little sandbox.

Thank you for letting us have our corner of the sandbox.

And then Ethan gets up and goes,

I think

I basically said everything I needed to say last time.

Thank you.

I love it.

It's a perfect bit.

And then, of course, when they win best picture, they say nothing.

Scott Rudin

gets on his head and revolves around or whatever.

Scott Rudin throws cheese strings from the stage.

This film, Griffin, came out November 9th, 2007.

Yeah.

Limited, so it's opening number 15, a robust $43,000 screen average, though.

Number one at the box office is sort of the no country for old man of animated films, though.

In its second week at the box office,

I'm joking.

It is called B Movie?

That's right.

It's Jerry Seinfeld's B movie.

Now, have you seen B movie?

I have not.

He's a B.

It is kind of a movie about an old man who doesn't understand.

It is no longer his country.

My God.

That's sort of slowly what Jerry Seinfeld's last 25 years have been about.

Oh, my God.

I'm just imagining.

Yes, exactly.

Yes.

Yeah.

I'm just imagining the last scene of No Country with Jerry Seinfeld and his wife.

This country?

Defrolling.

Just very quietly going, what's the deal?

That's pretty good.

With an old man.

Number two at the box office is a film that I think was widely tipped as a major Oscar player.

American Gangster.

Right.

Did well.

Yeah.

Is not bad, but certainly underwhelmed.

I'm not sure.

Got only the one nomination for Ruby D?

I think it might have gotten like a costume nod, but essentially.

But not a bad movie.

Not a bad movie.

Pretty re-watchable.

It was just on paper.

You were like, this is going to be the greatest shit of all

this time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, also, it's the year after the departed, so it makes sense.

Yeah.

It was.

Number three at the box office, new this week.

I think very unhappy for the studio that this is opening number three.

okay uh to comedy high concept comedy november 2007 what studio released this picture warner brose warner bros it is not fred claus is it it is unfortunately vince vaughn's fred claus one of the most repellent films i've ever seen

a film that actually embodies pure evil right now i'm remembering because this is when i was an intern at people magazine because i covered the b-movie red carpet at uh in london i worked in London.

I covered the red carpet for this film.

I've talked about it a lot on this podcast over the years.

This is a huge flop.

Yes.

Opening new at number four.

Drama, serious drama.

Oh, oh, oh, oh.

You're saying this movie is.

Yes, I did not cover the red carpet

for Fred Claus.

I did for the kingdom, but that's not what we're doing.

But this is Lions for Lambs.

Lions for Lambs.

Where it's just like everyone's in a room going like, but the war.

Is it good?

I don't know.

Yes.

I've never seen Lions for Lambs.

No, I haven't.

That is the fundamental yes or no question of our time.

No, it's that thing of like the Tom Cruise, Meryl Streep, Robert Redford.

The Cruise implosion.

Right.

Summer Redstone says we're ending our deal with him at Paramount.

And then the big, buzzy announcement is United Artists is being handed over to Tom Cruise.

It is going to be his studio.

He gets to make what he wants.

And the first move was, I'm going to play supporting in a Robert Redford talkie drama.

And it felt like, is he, is this the next phase of his career?

Right.

Is he not interested in being like action star movie star anymore?

Yeah.

And right after this, he pivots

so far away from that.

And this is like the couch jumping era.

Like, this is like right after.

How do I reset?

Yes.

And then his second UA movie is Falkyri,

where he finds Macquarie and that sets the next

years of his career.

Number five of the box office, Griffin, is a film that matters very much to you and I.

Not as a film, but as a thing we used to say to each other.

It's a thing we used to say to each other.

It's a film trivia a lot.

And you would say it to a lot of people.

A line from this film.

Put it on my tab.

Put it on my tab.

What's it on?

It's called.

It is one of the great

breakfast starch movie posters of all time.

That's right.

It is called Dan in Real Life.

The Steve Carell film.

Dan in Real Life.

Have you seen it?

I have not.

I have not.

It's got one of the most weirdly Photoshopped posters of all time.

I know the poster.

I know.

We all know the poster.

Nothing close to that happens in the film.

Oh, really?

No, he doesn't sleep on pancakes.

But it was clearly like a kind of like sub-kind of Casden-y attempt at a dramedy that then they were like, how do we sell this to look more like a 40-year-old virgin?

Oh, right.

What can be

happening in relation to his face?

Yeah.

Yeah.

A stack of pancakes.

Put it on my cat.

Number six in the box office is is Saw 4.

Okay.

That's the one that starts with his autopsy, I believe.

Okay.

Maybe.

I think.

Where they're like, he's dead.

Number five, seven is the film The Game Plan.

Now, what's that one?

That is The Rock is a fucking girl player who finds out he had a daughter.

And she likes like ballet.

And he's like, what's the game plan?

Yes.

Or whatever.

That's the era where he's like, I am solely family movie star.

And he does that, Tooth Fairy, and Escape to Rich Mountain.

Whatever.

In a row.

And then was like, never mind, never mind, fuck this.

Yeah, number eight at the box office is the like sort of okay thriller 30 Days of Night, the vampire movie with Josh Hartnett.

Yeah, David Slade.

Yeah, I've never seen it.

Number nine is something that I do not remember what this is.

P2?

The fuck is that?

That was a West Bentley evil parking attendant.

I don't know how you know this.

Broken brain.

How do you know what we've all parked?

Who is

evolved in the parking lot?

But what if?

What if it was evil?

I think it's it's Rachel Nichols and Wes Bentley.

You are correct.

And

it was one of those distributors that only existed for like 18 months.

Who are you?

It was distributed, of course.

Well, it was distributed by Summit Entertainment.

So they.

Oh, okay.

So maybe it was early Summit.

Yeah, but it was Alexandra Aha.

He didn't direct it.

He produced it and he found like one of his freaks to direct it.

I will not direct the parking movie.

I assume that's what he sounds like.

Number 10 at the box office is the Martian Child.

What is that again?

It's John Cusack.

John Cusack.

And he's like, what if my child was Martian?

Yes.

When you hear like all the

log lines,

just diminishing returns.

You know, we're going down to 10.

And it's just like, my God.

I think it's basically the movie is like, help my son is Kpex.

I have watched this movie on a plane, but it's basically, I think, like Cusack being like, I don't know.

The kid thinks he's a Martian.

And then someone plays the therapist who's trying to get through the kid.

I want to say it has a maybe vaguely tasteless twist, but I might be misremembering that.

I think it is one of the rare movies, though, where John and Joan play siblings, if I am not mistaken.

That's what I got to say about the Martian child.

I don't know what to tell you.

That's it.

Leslie.

Thank you, guys.

Pleasure's all on.

Thank you.

Three for three.

I mean, really, that is those.

Wow.

Yeah.

And once again, we cannot oversell how much dog shit we're going to sell you with next time.

Yeah, you have to.

So bad.

There's no way you've got a stinkiest shit we've ever covered on this show.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But you guys have been really lovely in terms of essentially offering me or letting me pick, like, really.

Of course.

That's what we should do.

Oh, we heard you like Zodiac.

Yeah.

You know, and then David Dystami and was like.

That was the weird thing also where it was like, nobody

was going for Zodiac, which is odd because it's like so incredible.

We raised like the flag to friends and we're like, who likes Zodiac?

Why can't we find anybody?

Yeah.

I think like no country is just, you know, it's just an astonishing movie.

Yeah.

So like those three, I just am like, Jesus Christ, I feel really lucky.

You did great.

And I did, it felt like the pinnacle of their career to me at this time.

And yet I think the run that comes right after it is sort of.

The kind of stuff you can only do when emboldened with this level of success.

Yeah.

It's fertile stuff.

It's a blank check.

It's really good shit.

They had quite a blank check run right after this.

Leslie, are you doing good?

Yeah, I'm doing okay.

You're about to go on vacation.

I'm about to go on vacation.

And by vacation, I mean, I'm not going to be with my wife and my child.

As a parent, I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm staying here, but I'm not.

I don't have to deal with it.

No, I'm okay.

I'm good.

I'm good.

I'm actually sort of not doing anything right now, which is really lovely.

That's great.

I feel like I last saw you right before my twins were born.

Yes, that's true.

Yeah.

Beginning to spool up on Cult of Love or whatever.

You know, like you had stuff on your plate or something.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

I was like about to start rehearsals or

something.

Yeah.

I feel like actually had just come out and you were starting rehearsals.

And then, like, since then, we will text once a month.

It's like, we should really hang out.

And I'm like, I know.

And then we never met.

I'm so sleepy.

Yeah.

But we're true when I just wave and I'm like, I got no kids over here.

You guys tell me when and where.

I mean, I'm so tired that I'm not even playing like Night Rain with my RPG group.

You know, like, I I mean, we're just like, we started and then everybody was like, what happened to you?

And I was like, I, I just, I can't even bring myself to play a video game.

I'm so tired.

That's how tired.

I started the Donkey Kong game, which is four children.

Yeah.

And I was like, this is kind of overwhelming.

Like, this is a lot for me right now.

Yeah.

But yeah, that would, that's how I

sums it up.

And obviously, you know, everyone should be hanging out.

Awesome, Ben.

But yeah, thanks for having me.

Yeah.

Thanks for having me.

It was wonderful to watch the movie again.

No, of course.

A phenomenal function.

Kind of an easy movie movie to talk about in a weird way where you're just like, who am I to say anything bad about this movie?

Like, it all works.

Yeah, you just kind of like roll through it.

It's like absolutely brilliant.

Not in like an uncomplicated way.

There's complicated stuff to think about, but it's just kind of like, oh, I'm not really faulting anything here.

One thing that I was going to say very quickly was.

uh the um one thing that i love about the novel and the film is that um you know then seventh seal it's like i'm playing chess with death and i just love that this movie is like it's a coin toss right yeah there you go there's no game to win it's a coin toss

i think we also have to mention that this is a dry movie well that's true ben thank god we've said that although he does go in the water at one point to get away from the people and it looks refreshing i know because it's so hot he goes in there i'm like man that's what i would be doing all the time but but to To back up Ben's point here, it's a movie so dry that the greatest mistake its lead character makes

is getting a jug of water

and going by the pool.

And getting a jug of water.

Yeah, yeah.

The water fuck.

I was kind of shocked you didn't have water, by the way.

I'm like, you're out here like hunting in the desert.

You don't have like a fucking bottle of water.

Like you served in the army.

This guy is a fucking malorane.

He's dumb.

Yeah.

It's a friggin' dry movie.

You're right.

Thank you all for listening.

Thank you.

Thank you guys.

Please remember to rate a review and subscribe.

Tune in next week for Burn After Reading.

Right.

Just a really funny

follow-up movie.

Yeah, we'll have it.

That's one where like eight guests have rotated out of that spot.

We'll see.

It's been an interesting.

It's been like the crow review in terms of the number of different names.

The person, the standing name right now.

Wow, is YOLC.

We cannot say it.

We can't say it.

We'll tell you afterwards.

We'll see.

Oh, yeah.

Don't say it.

Don't say what happens.

I'll see you guys for the next masterpiece.

Yeah, absolutely.

Penny Marshall's riding cars with boys.

I'm game.

David's taking a photo of what?

Of the runtime?

Runtime.

Someone asked me how long this episode was.

Because it's not four.

We came in.

four.

A respectful three.

A respectful.

Yeah.

Justice.

Honestly, I don't know how you put up with us.

I'm obsessed with this.

This was actually like my, my, um, it's my happy place.

I love talking with you guys.

And I even said, I was like, I just am so happy that I get to do something that I love.

And I'm not like, and it's during a time when I'm not also like under deadline.

It's kind of like

a chill vibes.

And as always, I'm going to promise you that next time you're going to get the worst fucking movie ever.

Dog shit.

shit!

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims.

Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley.

Our creative producer is Marie Bardy Salinas, and our associate producer is AJ McKeon.

This show is mixed and edited by A.J.

McKeon and Alan Smithy.

Research by J.J.

Birch.

Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell.

Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds.

Our production assistant is Minic.

Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help.

Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit.

Join our Patreon, BlankCheck Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes.

Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod.

Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack.

This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.