Lethal in the Hay

This is exactly right.

Old cases, new waters.

We're taking buried bones on a cruise.

This October, we're setting sail with Virgin Voyages on the first ever true crime podcast cruise, and we want you to join us.

We've got five nights of events, meetups, and mystery on board, plus a live taping of buried bones that you won't want to miss.

This is an all-inclusive experience.

No kids, no stress.

Join the true crime experience to the Dominican Republic and Biomini, Bahamas.

Book now at virginvoyages.com/slash true crime.

That's virginvoyages.com/slash true crime.

We'll see you on the ship.

This is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal.

Are there two sides to every story?

Academy Award nominee Robin Wright stars in the girlfriend on Prime, a psychological thriller that will make you question everything.

Laura has the perfect life and a son she'd die for.

But when he brings home his new girlfriend Cherry, played by Olivia Cook, something feels off.

Also starring Lori Davidson, The Girlfriend is a twisted game of cat and mouse where nothing is what it seems.

Don't miss the girlfriend, streaming now exclusively on Prime.

Sometimes the truth is just a matter of perspective.

Look, school is starting and I'm just a kid.

And let's be honest, I'm not going to shop for myself.

But we can get up to 40% off back to school essentials on Uber Eats.

Did I mention I need poster board for my science fair, lunch for my field trip, and unlined note cards for my history quiz tomorrow?

Or were they lined?

Anyway, Uber Eats has like all the back to school stuff on there.

So come on, let's order now on Uber Eats and get up to 40% off.

We're cool, right?

Cool.

Not literally everything.

Promotion ends 916 and it's subject to change or cancellation.

Exclusions may apply.

Check out for availability.

I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson.

I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

And I'm Paul Holz, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

Some are solved, and some are cold.

Very cold.

This is Buried Bones.

Hey, Paul.

Hey, Kate.

How are you doing?

I'm doing great.

I have an incredibly important listener question.

Oh.

I've actually actually got, I've gotten this multiple times and I have always sort of forgotten to ask you, but this is the question, okay?

You ready?

What is your skincare routine?

And actually, this person asked both of us.

What's your skincare?

Because they think we have great skin.

Paul, I really came close to saying filters.

That's what's on.

Yeah, no,

that's just it.

You know, I, you know, it's shocking to me that people think I have great skin.

You know, because I've always, you know, since my teen years, I struggled with acne and I never protected my skin.

You know, I never wore sunscreen.

I lifeguarded high school through college when I would be working in the yard in the hot California summers, no sunscreen on, never wore a hat.

And so a lot of sun damage.

But since I've gotten into sort of the media side, now I've been having to pay attention.

And of course, sunscreen is number one.

Sunscreen in the morning, it's a moisturizer that has sunscreen in it.

But generally, it's sort of the mantra of acids in the morning and retinoids in the evening.

Okay.

I found with my with my skin, what I need to do is generally wash with a salicylic acid containing cleanser.

Can be kind of harsh, but I have very, very oily skin.

Then if I'll use benzoyl peroxide on my troubled spots and then put on the moisturizer with the sunscreen in it.

And that's literally my morning routine.

Oh my gosh, that's more than most men.

I'm pretty sure.

That's a lot.

That's a lot more than I do.

Well, you know, it's one of those things I wish I had taken care of my skin when I was younger, you know?

And so I'm trying to hopefully get a more youthful appearance and try to prevent some of the, you know, the aging from the sun damage that happens in the wrinkles.

And then, you know, midday, like after I work out, I'll probably splash some water on my face and put some more moisturizer with sunscreen on.

And then in the evening, I use a gentle cleanser.

It's usually, right now, it's this userin cleanser with the hyuronic acid in it.

And then I have a retinoid.

I personally, right now, I'm using tazeritine.

It's one of the strongest retinoids.

And then I put a night cream, this userin PM face cream on top of that.

And generally, that's, you know, that's what my normal routine is.

And if I end up breaking out for whatever reason and it happens, then I have to address that and sometimes make changes.

But I know for a guy, I'm doing a lot more because most guys

they don't give a damn about that.

They splash water in their face and they're good to go.

Yeah, yeah.

But you have a very youthful look.

And I know you have to wear makeup when we film, right?

Anytime you're on camera, don't you, because you get a little shiny sometimes.

You know, sometimes I have put on, you know, and this, this comes back from, you know, having worked in the TV world and having the hair and makeup artists having to, you know, have to counter all the oil that I do.

So I do have like a blot powder.

I don't have any on right now.

You know, so we'll see how shiny I get as we sit and record today.

Okay.

I'll rate you.

We'll go halfway through.

You never get too shiny.

It's okay.

I mean, I i have a much simpler skin routine now i feel a little badly about mine mine is just a gentle cleanser at night i don't even remember what the brand is i can't remember it's something that a dermatologist told me to do a long time ago and then i just did it and then i'll use like a elta which you know i think it's a 50 sport in the morning uh and then i'll use you know a nighttime cream i do have some retinol that i put under my eyes, but I do a hydrator first.

The hydrating thing is a real big thing for me.

Because, you know, my glasses, when I, if anybody's ever met me, I'm usually wearing glasses.

I don't wear contacts very much.

You know, my glasses kind of cover up any darkness I might have under my eyes.

And so I know this sounds like a skincare commercial to you guys, but it is a thing, especially when you're on camera.

You really have to kind of think about that.

And then, of course, like just the longevity of your skin, there's skin cancer in my family.

So all of that I have to pass on to the kids.

Yeah, you know, and I think you have to come up with your own regimen.

You know, that's what I have found.

I've experimented with different cleansers.

There's one that has, you know, the ceramides in it and, you know, very hydrating, and that just wrecked my face.

You know, I'm just so oily to begin with, and it just wasn't cleansing my face enough.

That's why I ended up going to the salicylic acid.

And so it's a matter of experimenting and seeing, you know, how your skin responds.

Here in Colorado, you know, my house is at 6,500 feet.

I live on the side of a mountain, but it's high desert.

It is very, very dry here.

So using the strong retinoid, you know, it will really peel badly.

So that's where I had to kind of figure out how can I find a moisturizer to prevent, you know, showing up at the gym.

And I've got skin just flaking off of me all over the place.

It looks pretty bad.

That's not good.

No.

Well, I would say, you know, my kids have an unbelievable amount of skincare, not even really makeup, but the industry is pretty amazing for teens.

They each have their own little refrigerator, mini refridge that keeps all of the stuff cool.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, it's tiny.

It's not even a traditional mini fridge.

I literally use lava soap

and Irish Spring when I was a kid as I was in the country.

And they're using, I mean, the stuff that they, their allowance almost exclusively goes to skincare stuff.

So, boy, things have changed.

Well, you know, and a lot of it, as a guy growing up, there wasn't a source of knowledge on how to take care of your skin.

You know, so for me, once I became a teenage boy, it was the oxypads and

slathering benzoyl peroxide creams all over the face and then going into school or going into work and then the shirt would all bleach out.

It was just a horrible thing.

And I didn't know any better.

And now for me, I've done the research, but even my daughter, my youngest daughter, she is so on top of.

you know, her skincare routine and what products to use when, you know, and so it's just the internet has just made so much information made it so much more available so you can learn and as opposed to having to either go into an office somewhere with a dermatologist which you still need to do but in terms of having an expert like that tell you what your regimen should be I agree.

I mean, I still have a lot of flexibility.

We were supposed to get my father-in-law some deodorant or antiperspirant.

I can't remember which.

And so we got him old spice, some kind of old spice stuff, and he rejected it.

He said, no.

So I wear it.

It's fine.

I mean, I like it.

So, so you smell like a lumberjack.

Is that what you're telling me?

I don't smell badly.

And for me, that's the only thing that counts, really.

Anyway, we've gone down a weird road, but this is, but yeah, this is a question actually we've gotten quite a bit.

So we're both very grateful that at least some of you think that we have nice skin, thankfully.

Well, it's always, you know, for me, having the struggles that I've had for people to actually make that type of comment, it's sort of a confidence booster.

You know, it's like, okay, good.

You know?

Yes.

Well, I could have told you that three years ago.

I would have told you that.

Okay.

Well, now I know.

Now I know.

Well, let's get into a story that, unlike our skincare routines, is quite a mystery.

That was not a good transition, but it's a mystery.

This is a mystery.

I love the time period.

We're in 1930s.

England, of course, love England.

And so this will be a case of, actually, I'm not even going to finish that sentence.

Let's just get into the case and let's set the scene.

This is where we are.

We're in Stadhampton.

I'm sure I said that wrong, England.

It's a small rural village about nine miles away from Oxford.

Most people would recognize Oxford from Oxford University.

It's May 15th, 1936.

So this is 2.45 in the morning.

And several farmers in this rural area see smoke coming from a nearby hayfield.

I have written about bad things happening in hayfields.

We have had at least a couple of stories of fires happening.

Now I can't remember.

One, it's like a whole family is burned and buried in a hayfield and only one child survives.

There's a lot of stuff happening.

I guess because it's so isolated and it's in the middle of the night, it's very early in the morning.

Farmers and farmhands report they're there at about three in the morning and they're trying to put out this this blaze.

And the fire has spread to several different haystacks in the field.

And there's a group of cows that wanders over to one of the smoldering stacks and starts nosing it.

Now, this next part is a I shit you not part.

The farmers try to shoo them away, but they're not moving and they keep nosing the hay.

I don't think they want to eat it.

The farmers go over and there is a charred body in the haystack.

I would not have predicted cows locating a body.

We've never had that happen before, but

this is a situation where the cows won't move.

And I don't know what they're doing.

I don't know if they're trying to tell them that there's a body there, but something's unusual and the cows are picking up on it.

Yeah, you know, I've never heard of that kind of behavior by cattle.

You know, I would assume the cattle, the cows would stay far away from any of these fires.

That would just seem like the animal instinct for survival.

With a charred body, of course, there's going to be definitely a very strong odor.

You know, is that what's drawing the cows?

You know, or is there a level of intelligence where the cows are going, we need to alert these humans that there's another human that's being burned up underneath this haystack?

I think one of the things that I'll tell you in a minute, because I'm going to want you to look at a photo.

So while I'm talking, maybe go ahead and download your two photo documents is I think the rest of this field has been burned pretty significantly.

So the cows might be approaching maybe the only hay that's around, but still there are people yelling.

There's all sorts of chaos.

There's that bad smell.

I can't explain it.

I'm not saying get rid of your bloodhounds, law enforcement people across the country, but I'm saying cows in this case were helpful.

This show is sponsored by Better Help.

When life gets overwhelming, who do you turn to?

Maybe it's a friend or a family member.

Talking helps, but a licensed therapist has the training to help you work through what's weighing on you, not just listen.

BetterHelp has over 30,000 therapists and has helped more than 5 million people worldwide, making it the largest online therapy platform out there.

And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews.

BetterHelp is convenient too.

You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life.

Plus, switch therapists at any time.

Sometimes you need to talk to someone who doesn't have some stake in whatever you're discussing.

I think everyone can benefit from therapy.

As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise.

Find the one with BetterHelp.

Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/slash buried bones.

That's better H-E-L-P

buried bones.

This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack and hydration sponsor.

IQ Bar is the Better For You plant protein-based snack made with brain-boosting nutrients to refuel, nourish, and satisfy hunger without the sugar crash.

The Ultimate Sampler Pack is a great way to try all IQ Bar products and flavors.

You get nine IQ bars, eight IQ Mix sticks, and four IQ Joe sticks.

All IQ Bar products are entirely free from gluten, dairy, soy, GMOs, and artificial sweeteners.

With over 20,000 five-star reviews and counting, more people than ever are starting their days on the right foot with IQ Bars, brain and body boosting bars, hydration mixes, and mushroom coffees.

I always feel like I have to have something to perk me up in the afternoon.

IQ bars are really convenient and they taste great.

And right now, IQ Bar is offering our our special podcast listeners 20% off all IQ products, plus get free shipping.

To get your 20% off, just text bones to 64,000.

Text bones to 64,000.

That's B-O-N-E-S to $64,000.

Message and data rates may apply.

See terms for details.

The secret to a great outfit is having the right foundation.

Honey Love makes bras and shapewear that are supportive, lightweight, and designed to move with you.

Start every outfit with Honey Love and the rest falls into place.

Honey Love is an independent female-founded brand.

All Honey Love products are intelligently designed by women who actually wear them.

They recently launched their new cloud embrace bra.

It's a wireless bra for people who love underwire.

This style is bound to sell out again, so don't wait to try it.

Honey Love Shapewear is designed to move with you.

It uses targeted compression to enhance your curves instead of squeeze them.

It's designed to work with your body, not against it.

Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market.

Save 20% off honeylove at honeylove.com slash buried.

Use our exclusive link to get 20% off honeylove.com slash buried to find your perfect fit.

After you purchase, they ask you where you heard about them.

Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

Experience the new standard in bras and shapewear with Honey Love.

Okay, so before you open it, don't open it just yet, let me just tell you what is found.

It's determined that the body in the haystack has been confirmed to be this guy, Thomas Pattison Moss.

He had a distinctive broken tooth.

And I think there were a couple of other things, particularly, I know, particularly there's a belt that is leather.

It's still intact.

And it has his name on it, Thomas Pattison Moss.

But the tooth for them, I guess, was the thing that that confirmed it.

I don't know.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, you know, back, you know, during this timeframe, and we're talking 1936 out there in England, you know, they're going to rely on these types of physical characteristics.

I think the belt with his name on it is significant.

Now, of course, is this a true identification by today's standards?

It is not.

Could somebody stage a different body to, especially after it's been burned, to have, you know, this type of broken tooth and then put a belt from Thomas around that body.

And then now you got authorities going, well, it's got to be Thomas, you know, and the reality, it's not.

It'd be very, very easy to fool people and authorities back during this timeframe with that type of staging.

Yeah.

Well, that's all I have to go on right now.

So they are assuming that Thomas Pattison Moss is their victim.

There are two photos that you can look at.

And really, it's the two main photos in this case.

There's not a lot of photographic evidence here.

One is what the haystack field would have likely looked at with the big, huge, roundish haystacks.

And the other one, which is the first photo you can look at, is what this field looked like after the fire, after they discovered the body.

So I don't think it spoils anything for you to look at both of them now if you want.

Okay.

Well, I'm looking at the first one, and it's literally, it looks just like mounds of dry hay that's still smoldering.

You see three gentlemen, I must say very well-dressed gentlemen, you know.

I'm assuming these are, you know, law enforcement or maybe members from, you know, city government or something that are out there.

Yeah.

One gentleman is pointing down to the ground.

I'm not seeing anything that stands out where he's pointing.

So I'm wondering if that's where he's saying where Thomas's body was located at.

I think that's what they're saying, yeah.

Okay.

And then the second.

Wow.

Okay.

So this photo is a modern day photo showing these haystacks or hay ricks.

And

I've never heard the term hay ricks,

but it's showing a way where you have these

hay that's been baled into your typical you know, blocks, you know, rectangular blocks that have been stacked up.

And then there is loose hay that has been draped over the top, giving it a look of almost like a, sort of like a house, you know, that has a hay roof.

And I'm assuming they do that because I'm just thinking like during, you know, during the rain, they're probably wanting to keep the

baled hay dry.

And so this hay that is.

drooped over the top is a way to get the water from rain and stuff to run off and not soak the the hay that they're probably going to try to sell.

You know, so of course, if that's how this looked before the fire, going back to the original photograph, there's a significant amount of hay that has been burned.

Yeah.

You know, because

none of that type of structure is remaining.

You just see these smoldering mounds.

You know, so as I evaluate this scene, I'm looking at this from the perspective of, okay, how much heat was Thomas's body subjected to?

You know, what is the origin of the fire?

You know, and of course, how long had Thomas been out there?

But it's interesting that I could see with this dry hay, you know, a lot of this fire is just going straight up these haystacks.

And does it work its way down?

You know, so maybe it's been burning for a long time before it, you know, the fire actually gets down to Thomas's body.

You know, and that's just something where talking to people who have observed these types of haystacks burn, how do they burn?

You know, and then I would take that to assess sort of the thermal injuries to Thomas and to start to get a sense as to what is going on here.

You know, is did he just happen to get trapped in a fire and he

succumbed to the smoke inhalation and now his body's being burned?

Does he have injuries to suggest that he was killed?

And then, of course, his body's being burned as the offender lit these haystacks

to cover up the crime.

This is why the case, I think, is so interesting.

And it is a mystery, especially when we find out a little bit more about Thomas.

So let me tell you about him.

He is 21 years old.

He's an undergraduate in law at Oxford University's Balliol College.

This is not a big part of the story, but Oxford is split up into a a bunch of different colleges.

And, you know, they pool resources like libraries and labs.

And so Thomas is at one of the best schools in the world.

He is originally from Toronto, so he's Canadian, and is part of a wealthy, very prominent family.

His father is a well-known barrister.

We just talked about barristers.

They're the attorneys who argue before the courts.

So this is a middle-class, upper-middle-class guy who ends up in these haystacks, burned to death.

You know, when we talk about what happens, he doesn't have ties to where we are.

Let me give you the best news I'm going to be able to give you today, I think, with anything that we talk about.

Okay.

You're going to probably geek out a lot, which is great, because

we are getting to get some information from my pathology crush.

So it's England.

It's the 1930s.

It is not you, Paul.

It is the 1930s.

I know that's what you're thinking about.

It's now I'm going to see if you can figure this out.

It's England.

It's the 1930s.

I love this, this pathologist.

Who is it, do you think?

Oh, you know, the name is on the tip of my tongue, but I'm not.

S.P.

Spill.

Spillsbury.

Bernard Spillsbury.

Oh, yeah.

Bernard Spillsbury.

He's our guy.

I know you've got your book back there, right?

I think I've got a book about him.

I'm not sure you've ever disagreed with Spillsbury.

I don't remember you ever saying, I don't know, he might be reaching.

I feel like you're always sort of like on the same page with this guy from the 1930s.

Yeah, you know, and I can't remember specific issues

in which Spillsbury has weighed in.

But, you know, this from

what I remember about him and the sense of what you have presented to me over the various cases, you know, he's an experienced pathologist.

He is a true expert.

He's seen it all.

And

that's where he's able to come in and provide that level of expertise and draw proper conclusions.

And unfortunately,

in many parts of the United States, and I'm assuming in some parts of England, you don't have pathologists that have that experience and expertise.

And so now they're weighing in on cases without that knowledge base.

And sometimes they're wrong about what they're concluding.

Yeah.

And part of me wonders why was he called in on this?

He's certainly not the only pathologist in 1930s England.

It's not London.

I know it on the outset kind of seems like a violent case, but they're not sure what happened.

And I don't know if it was the family's prominence, that he was Canadian and he's here in England, that he's at Oxford University.

But this seems like not a special request, but I don't know.

It just seems a little odd that he would be the one out there.

I'm glad he is because we have a lot of information.

You You know, what's striking me right off the bat about Thomas Moss being found at this location that he has no ties to

is that it sounds like they're able to identify him pretty quickly.

You know, so there must have been some sort of report, a missing report, to indicate, hey, we have this Canadian student from a prominent family that's missing.

And now you have this burned body at a location where now authorities are going, well, we need to look look at that.

And sure enough, it's the son of this prominent Canadian family.

Yeah.

And we do have some information about Thomas and where he was and

his whereabouts.

And I think people were concerned about him.

So let me tell you first, there's a kind of an interesting order of things.

So Spilsbury, my pathology crush, has decided to do a post-mortem right there where the body is in the field.

So there will be a lot more information once he's done with this report, but he has to do a pretty intensive examination back at his lab.

Right now, we're just kind of getting information as he's getting it.

So it's in the field where this is happening.

He uses a pop-up table.

Is that something that happens ever or why would you do that?

Don't start disagreeing with him right now.

No, you know, now there are times when pathologists do come out into the field, you know, and they want to observe the deceased in the environment prior to the death investigator collecting the body.

And that can be very valuable to get the pathologist's opinions, you know, early on during the crime scene investigation.

Outside of when I've seen anthropologists, you know, kind of study the skeletal remains out into the field.

Typically, the body is collected and then taken back.

to the coroner's office, Emmy's office, or the morgue, or, you know, back in the day, funeral homes, where the pathologist in a a controlled setting can now do the autopsy and has all the tools available in order to do that.

So, you know, Spielsbury must have seen something, you know, that was maybe time sensitive, where he's going, I need to take a look now to see what's going on.

I also wonder if there is no nearby facilities.

And since Spielsbury is traveling, he thought, you know what?

Yeah, I can, I can do this out in the field.

You know, know, and I don't see that happening today,

you know, but I can see where it's feasible.

I don't, you know, there is a possibility there's no harm in doing it as long as it's done properly, the proper samples are collected, you know, all the specimen jars are available, et cetera.

This October, we're doing something very different.

We'll be recording buried bones live at sea.

That's right.

Kate and I will both be part of the first ever True Crime Podcast Voyage, hosted by Virgin Voyages and iHeart Podcasts.

This is five nights of mystery, luxury, and Halloween fun, sailing to the Dominican Republic and Bimini Bahamas, adults only.

No kids, no stress.

Expect a live podcast recording of buried bones, crime-themed trivia, behind-the-scenes sessions with iHeart hosts, and yes, plenty of surprises.

And it's all wrapped in the full Virgin Voyages experience.

20-plus eateries, Michelin star chef-curated menus, Lux staterooms, Wi-Fi, and entertainment included.

It's not just a cruise.

It's a celebration of thoughtful true crime storytelling, and we want you to join us.

Book your cabin now at virginvoyages.com slash true crime.

That's virginvoyages.com slash true crime.

We'll see you on board.

Fall is here, and it's the perfect time to update your wardrobe with pieces that feel great and look even better.

Quince makes it simple to stay warm, look sharp, and save while you do it.

Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall, think 100% Mongolian cashmere from $50,

washable silk tops and skirts, and perfectly tailored denim.

The best part?

Everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands, and Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes.

I think my favorite favorite thing is this lightweight cotton cashmere V-neck sweater, which is the one I have that I love is charcoal gray, and actually, I have a black one too.

Keep it classy and cozy this fall with long-lasting staples from Quince.

Right now, go to quince.com/slash bones to get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order.

That's q-u-in-ce.com/slash bones for free shipping and 365-day returns.

Quince.com/slash bones.

Every business has an ambition.

PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide.

And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo, Pay Later, and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up.

When it's time to get growing, there's one platform for all business: PayPal Open.

Grow today at paypalopen.com.

Loan subject to approval in available locations.

So Spillsbury, when he's done with this examination, there will be a coroner's inquest, but it's paused because Spillsbury takes more than a week with Thomas's body to figure out what's going on.

So you'll have questions, but I think he's going to have answers for just about everything.

So he does his post-mortem in the field using a propped-up door as a makeshift table.

Okay, there you go.

Ad hoc, you know, he's he's having to improvise.

He is.

Okay, this is what he says, and this is preliminary.

He says that Thomas's skull and both of his arms are broken, which I think the farmers could tell when he was found.

So he says, Spillsbury says he thinks that the bones cracked from the fire and had not been broken before Thomas had died.

So how would he know that?

Well, this again goes to case experience and having dealt with previous burned bodies.

Now, you know, the skull being broken or fractured, that is a very, very common thing because as the heat from the fire is burning the victim and burning around the victim's head, of course, the brain matter inside the skull is being subjected to intense heat.

And this is where you can actually have the skull somewhat burst from the thermal, you know, this tissue expanding and all the heat that's that's collecting within this closed system skulls are very good at resisting pressure from the outside in like somebody pressing on your head the skulls are not so good at resisting pressure from the inside out so if this tissue inside the brain under high heat is now gaseous and and the pressure is building up you often see the skull separate at the suture lines or even fracture.

And so he must be seeing something like that.

And then the broken bones, that's likely telling me that the extremities, at least the upper extremities for Thomas have been subjected to prolonged exposure to fire.

And so now the soft tissue has been burned away.

The bones are, in essence, turning brittle.

And yeah, they lose their integrity.

So, of course, initially, I start thinking, well, is there a chance that this was a bludgeoning and the broken arms are a result of defensive, you know, defensive posture in terms of trying to ward off the bludgeoning weapon.

But I have to rely on Spilsbury assessment that this is thermal injuries versus actual violence.

Well, he'll have a lot more information, but he's taken the body.

They are continuing to look at the scene.

And, you know, one thing that struck me about the photo I sent you is obviously they take this photo of these well-dressed men with one either holding a pipe, a smoking pipe, or a pencil.

I'm not sure what he's holding.

He's definitely holding something.

It looks like a pipe.

I mean, you can see it looks like where his hand is wrapped around it is pretty wide, you know.

So, yeah, you're out in the middle with all this dry hay and you're smoking.

Great.

Yeah.

And, you know, my first book, which was Death in the Ear, which was set in London, I talk about the Minister of Health who, in, I think, in the late 50s, early 60s, has a big press conference and he's declaring that there is a definitive connection between lung cancer and smoking.

And he is chain smoking a cigarette.

He's chains smoking cigarettes to the entire press conference where he's talking about these are going to kill you.

So there's more irony all over.

Okay, so, you know, what I was looking at with that photo is how decimated that is.

I wonder how long after 2.45 a.m.

that was, because if the haystacks, the hay ricks, were as tall as we think they would be, I mean, in a field like that, they just look decimated.

I mean, this looks huge, a huge fire.

So this could have been three days later, and it still looks like it's smoldering to me.

So this was a big deal, this fire.

There's a lot of fuel at this, you know, in this fire.

Now, hay is going to burn quickly, but those baled hay blocks, you know, they're pretty compact.

So it's sort of like a log in many ways, you know, and I have no experience in terms of how fast something like that would burn.

But if you have them stacked on top of each other and for them to to be completely burned down to the ground, it's probably a very intense fire and it was going on for a period of time, a significant period of time.

And we don't know who this guy just happened to see it at 245.

We don't even know when it started.

Sure.

Okay, let me tell you what else they found.

So I told you that there's the belt fragment that has Thomas's name on it.

And there were some other things that were not completely burned that were found with his body, including a pair of cufflinks that were later identified as his and some money, which is three shillings and two pence.

And remember, this is, you know, 1930, so this is about 20 bucks today.

Okay, and these are coins.

Yes.

And, you know, so you've got not incredible valuables, but he's got a leather belt.

He's got, you know, some cufflinks that seem really nice.

And he's got some money on him.

And none of those things are taken.

Now, I don't know what else he had on him, but that's a thing.

I mean, you know, we're looking if robbery is a motive for anything.

That's one thing.

Absolutely.

You know, and this is part of the problem with fires.

Fires can be so devastating to the crime scene that there's always missing information because the fire has destroyed it.

So, you know, is there a possibility that

something had been taken from Thomas?

Yeah, you know, it's possible.

But it's notable that these particular items that do have some value were left behind.

Also his watch.

We've had this happen before, too.

So the leather strap is burned away, but they find the watch and it's the face is still readable.

It stopped at 2.10 a.m.

So this is 35 minutes before the farmer saw the fire.

Is that a pretty good time stamp for something?

I think the only conclusion that can be drawn is that's the time in which the watch being subjected to the fire stopped working.

It gives no information as to when Thomas was put out there nor when the fire was started.

So the farmer whose field Thomas was found in, who I'm sure is upset for many different reasons, a body being found in his field and all of it being destroyed, he brings a reporter to the spot in the field where the body was.

And it's a reporter, not a photographer.

We don't have a photo of this.

And according to the photographer and the farmer, it's the only spot in the entire hay field that hasn't been completely burned.

And this becomes important to Spillsbury.

There's still hay on the spot where Thomas's body has been found, while all the other hay in the field has been reduced to ash.

So the farmer thinks that this particular haystack has been wet.

And he says that if Thomas had decided to go to sleep on a haystack, there would have been no reason for him to pick a wet one when all the other ones, which completely burned down, were

dry.

So for a while, the investigators, until we hear back from Spillsbury, think, what if this guy, which happens, wanders down the road

early the night before and decides to take a nap in between some haystacks.

He's covered.

And if it's a nice night and it's not raining, why not?

Yeah.

Well, and this is something that has to be considered at this point is, is this an accidental death?

Yeah.

Not sure what Thomas would have done to cause the fire himself,

but he chose a location that I have to rely upon the farmer's expertise going, hey, the reason this hay didn't burn is because it was wetter than the other.

You know, but was Thomas smoking?

He falls asleep.

You know, right now we don't have any indication that Thomas is inebriated.

He's intoxicated, you know, he's under the influence of alcohol and, you know, he nods off.

And then he lights the drier haystacks around him.

Just, you know, the cigarette just happens to catch something on fire and it goes.

I was also, when you were describing it, I was wondering, you know, is this just where you have Thomas's body laying on top of some hay?

And let's say the offender lights Thomas on fire and the fire spreads to all these other dry haystacks, you know, but Thomas's body, though it's, it's being burned, in essence, is protecting the hay underneath where he's laying.

So by the time they actually discover Thomas, the fire hasn't gotten to this protected area.

Yeah, I agree.

And it's interesting because the farmer and the reporter are not saying the hay is wet right now.

They're just trying to figure out why there would be this hay, you know, with the cows coming over, why this hay would be not burned and everything else around it would be.

And it's also a little bit confusing about how big these haystacks are because, you know, there's sort of an indication that the investigators are wondering, right, if he would have fallen asleep because he's protected on both sides from the wind between two haystacks.

But the farmer says on a haystack, so it could have been you know 10 bales and that was it we don't know yet okay coroner's inquest starts and this is the day after thomas's body is discovered his identity is established you know just the what happens uh with the belt they find this belt the cufflinks his clothing they talk to his family and so they're concluding and the tooth they're concluding that this is Thomas.

Here's something weird.

It comes out that there is a box of matches that was still in Thomas's pocket.

And the box and the matches were burned, but they were still recognizable.

It's agreed by the investigators, at least, that if Thomas had set the hay on fire himself, he would have had to do so with a different box of matches since the group does not believe that he could have gotten this box back in his pocket.

Like the kind of explosion of lighting this hay would have, you know, prevented him from putting the box back in his pocket.

I'm not sure what that would be the case.

I'm skeptical about that conclusion.

I'm imagining Thomas with this box of matches.

He lights a match, you know, puts the box back in the pocket, flicks the match away, you know, and that match goes and falls on some dry hay.

And then the fire would spread reasonably rapidly.

But I don't see it being like this explosive, you know, where Thomas is immediately incapacitated as soon as that fire starts.

So,

you know, this is where, you know, Thomas at least does have the ability to start the fire himself.

Okay.

Authorities are going back and forth almost on a daily basis on, you know, is this murder and a cover-up, or is this Thomas took his own life or something accidentally happened?

We don't know.

Accidental death is kind of what they're leaning towards, but they're not sure.

They talked to Thomas's friends at the Oxford Law School, and they say they don't think that Thomas would have taken his own life, which this seems like an odd way to do it, but it has to be on the table.

He was a week away from graduating.

They're confused about why he would have walked from Oxford to this tiny rural area when there's nine miles in between them.

And this is a desolate country road late at night.

They don't know how he got there.

Let me tell you the timeline.

So 10.50 on Thursday, the night before, he's seen about nine miles away in Oxford's boardwalk.

And he seems to be walking back to his hostel or his student housing is what they would have called it.

At 1.10 in the morning, a poster worker passes by the hayfield.

Nothing, nothing's wrong.

But, you know, he wouldn't have seen Thomas most likely anyway from the road.

2.10, an hour later, Thomas's watch stops.

2.45, the farmhand's seen the fire.

And then 3.30, they finally find his body after 45 minutes.

So one thing I think most people agree on is nobody sees this guy walking nine miles in the dark by himself to get to a haystack only to fall asleep on some hay in between it and then everything goes up in flames.

So it's the transportation that I think bugs everybody the most.

What how did he get there?

Well, I think we're getting into sort of the core of the initial investigative thrust.

You have Thomas from a wealthy, prominent family who has no ties to the location where his body is found.

You know, I was wondering, you know, was he, you know, like a farmhand, you know, sort of moonlighting, you know, to get some money or something like that.

But it sounds like he has no connection to this particular location.

So you have a timeline where he is now seen at 10.50 p.m.

walking towards his residence

on the Oxford campus.

Yes.

Okay.

So now This is where the focus has to start in terms of, okay, you have one witness.

What does his residence suggest?

You know, does it look like he made it back to the residence?

Is there anything that looks amiss inside the residence?

Was he abducted out of the residence?

What other aspects of Thomas's victimology would suggest that maybe there's something else going on in his life

that could cause him to become a victim?

of homicide and now you do have the possibility of a body disposal out there in the hayfield with the hayfields being set on fire And this might give some insight.

If that's what happened, the fact that the offender chose the hayfield and lit the hayfield on fire, they purposely took Thomas's body out there, that might suggest that the offender has some familiarity with that particular location and being able to possibly cover up a crime using the fire and the hay.

Well, let me give you some details about Thomas, but first let me tell you the speculation, which I hadn't thought of.

So there is a lot of speculation that maybe Thomas was hit by a car accidentally, killed, and then the motorist dumped his body in this hayfield and set it on fire.

But then that still brings Thomas back to walking to someplace he doesn't have a connection to for no good reason.

I don't know if I buy into that, but they're just reaching for anything at this point.

Well, sure.

You know, and this is where, what does the autopsy show?

You know, we have some preliminary information from Spilsbury cutting into Thomas's body on the door out there at the hayfield.

You know, but I imagine that there is more extensive autopsy done, you know, and pedestrian injuries for motor vehicles, you know, they can be quite extensive.

And that would probably stand out.

If Thomas is walking and you have a motor vehicle striking him, it's possible you have massive lower leg fractures.

If he was run over, and 1936

England, I mean, you have cars.

I mean, these are legitimate vehicles.

Yeah, heavy, heavy cars.

They're heavy.

Yeah.

You know, they're made out of steel.

And I would expect under that scenario that there would be some indication of that level of violence from a motor vehicle that Spillsbury would be able to see, even with the thermal damage to Thomas's body.

Well, let me tell you about Thomas because Spillsbury is almost done.

He's getting there, but he's almost done with this examination.

Like I said, it's taken more than a week.

I know, but he knows what he's doing, I think.

We'll see if he's like, you know, batting a thousand.

I could tell you, the investigators are standing there going, come on, Doc.

I know.

They're like tapping their feet going, we need to get rolling on this.

There's speculation all over the place, especially if there's a murderer running around.

So in the meantime, the police start grabbing all of his friends from Oxford to try to figure out the timeline and what he was like in general.

There is a classmate in Oxford who testified to the police for an hour.

And, you know, I'll go through what that person says first.

There's an ear witness.

It was a woman in a village.

And she said that near the hayfield, she was in earshot and she could hear a scream the night that Thomas died.

She said she saw a car drive quickly through the village and then toward the hayfield and then away from the hayfield.

But this is something that, you know, is reported briefly.

It's It's not something in the police notes that we saw, and it was in the newspaper, and that was it.

And it doesn't actually come up in the actual inquest.

So I don't know if this woman was discredited or what, but this is the, this is the closest thing that I've seen to something that really was sort of like, whoa, okay, that's interesting.

And she, she doesn't give any details about the scream.

Like, was there a word being screamed or was it, did it sound like a male versus female voice?

No, it just, the scream to me, I think was sort of in pain, but no, she couldn't say anything about that.

It was a little bit more, because this is such a tiny village, I think it was very noticeable that a car was coming in and coming out so quickly.

And that's really what she noticed also.

So take that for what it's worth.

Here's another weird thing.

I don't actually think this is going to make a difference, but I find it slightly amusing.

It's reported that the police are looking for two letters that a street cleaner in Oxford, so where where he went to school, found on May 18th, which is two days after Thomas was found.

The street cleaner found these letters, two of them, and they both had been signed Pat Moss.

So Thomas's name was, you know, Thomas Pattison Moss.

So it could have been Pat Moss.

It also might be another Pat Moss.

The street cleaner says he didn't open them.

He gave the two letters to two people who had been sitting on a nearby bench because they had a car.

And he said, Can you bring these letters to the police?

But the police never got these letters.

I don't know why he wouldn't take them himself.

But if these letters were at all significant, they're in the wind at this point.

Okay, so we have no details what these letters said.

No, no.

And we have, I mean, we've been down the letter route on many other stories where, you know, it's like, where does this come from?

Is this significant?

Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not.

Yeah.

And do we know, would Thomas sign his name, Pat Moss?

Is this consistent?

I don't think they even looked into that.

So I don't know.

Okay, May 29th is when we pick up the inquest again.

There's one witness.

He is a classmate at Oxford.

This is the one who I think spoke to the police for more than an hour.

The rest of this inquest, which I know is driving people crazy, gets pushed to June because everyone's taking final exams at Oxford.

And so these witnesses are not available.

This guy is.

He says that he last saw Thomas about 8.15 p.m.

the night before he died.

So that would have been Thursday night if he died Friday, early morning.

This was right after a dinner at the college within Oxford University where he was.

The classmate says that Thomas seemed totally normal.

He was a good guy.

He had a lot of friends.

He was handsome.

He was not in the habit of walking alone, that he never walked alone in the countryside.

He was generally a pretty happy guy.

Now, I don't know how he knows that this was not something that Thomas would do.

I doubt they had a conversation, but it just wasn't in his habit to go on like a stroll or a walk about by himself.

It would have been unusual, according to this friend.

They don't know anything else except there's one witness who said they saw him at 1050, but just kind of passing by.

And that was it.

Nobody else knows what happened after this with Thomas.

So we don't have a lot of information about enemies, girlfriends, anything like that.

It just sounds like this is a guy just trying to make it through school at a very challenging school, average life, except he's from a very upper class family.

And that's it as far as character witnesses or anything like that.

Yeah.

So at this point, we don't have an investigative direction to where we can start focusing in on a smaller suspect pool.

I mean, basically, this investigation is wide open at this point.

And it's still, they're doing this coroner's inquest and they're trying, probably trying to get, present information so they can get the manner of death for the death certificate.

You know, that's what the inquest is there for.

Was this death at the hands of another?

Was this an accident?

Was this natural?

So at some point during this inquest, Spilsbury has to come forward and provide his findings.

Because that's critical.

We have the fractured skull and the broken bones, which he's saying appear to be from the fire.

You know, what else is he finding?

Okay, it's time.

He's finally done.

It's a month later.

There's been delays after delays.

It's, I know, June 18th.

So this is a month later.

He comes back with his analysis.

There are 1, 2, 3.

4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12.

There's like 15 points that he makes.

So I thought I had the idea that either we could go point by point and I'll pause and look at you, or you could put your hand up if you want to comment on one of these points.

But he tries to go through every scenario in his head and see if the evidence matches up to it that he finds.

So how do you want to handle this, Detective Holes?

I think I want to hear the totality of his findings and then I can kind of weigh in after that.

Okay.

This is what Spilsbury says.

So Thomas's stomach contents showed no sign of any poison.

So he spent a lot of time looking for poison.

A bottle, so they had found a bottle near his body, was burned too badly to know what had been in it.

It looked like maybe it was a prescription bottle, but there was no way to know.

Sure.

He says there was no smell of gasoline petrol on what remained of Thomas's clothes.

So he didn't smell that kind of an accelerant.

There were no injuries on Thomas's body other than what occurred during the fire.

He says all of his organs are intact.

He thinks this means kind of exactly what you said, that Thomas did not get hit by a car, otherwise he would have seen some significant damage.

And there were no ligature marks or any other marks of strangulation on Thomas.

Well, and that's, I think, I'll comment on that.

I don't know the extent of the fire damage to Thomas in terms of how much of his body was really destroyed by the fire.

So for Spillsbury to draw a conclusion saying, I'm not seeing evidence of strangulation, whether it be ligature or manual strangulation, that tells me that the neck structures must have been intact enough for Spillsbury to form that opinion.

Okay, you're going to like this next bit.

Well, first, let me tell you, Thomas was healthy.

There's no disease or anything that would point to something happening.

This is what he says.

It's like you guys are of the same mind because you say something, and I have that's my next note.

This is what he says about the body being burned.

Okay.

No, you'll like this.

Okay, tell me what you think.

This is what he says.

This is a quote: The body was severely burned, but the changes were of an unusual character in that while the destruction of the tissues was limited to parts of the limbs and the top of the head, the heating effects were general and extended very deeply into the head and the trunk.

He believes that Thomas was exposed to the effects of high heat much longer than he was exposed to the flames.

The location of these, the thermal damage, that's telling me, and it was the arms and it sounds like it was the upper part of his head.

Well, that indicates the way that Thomas was laying, I'm assuming on the ground or on top of some hay.

Well, that part of his body is where the fire is raging.

And so you got that, he's closest to the fire with his head and his arms, but the rest of his body is not, it's further away and it's not on fire.

So eventually he's probably got the fire encroaching on his body or he's starting to to burn when the rescuers come and put out the fire.

The cows say, hey, look, you know, the cows basically stopped Thomas's body from being turned to ashes.

You know, that's interesting from a,

what is the point of origin of the fire?

So if this was a body disposal, typically the offenders are going to light the body on fire and the surround and surrounding flammables, you know, and Spilsbury saying i'm not detecting the odor of of gasoline coming from from his body doesn't mean an accelerant wasn't used it's possible an accelerant was used in order to help light some of the hay surrounding thomas's body or the high heat has burned away the volatiles that now spillsbury can't smell you know typically like gasoline has a wide variety of different uh volatiles in it and the lighter ones will burn away very quickly, but you can still have some of the heavier volatiles that might be present that might contribute to a gasoline-like smell.

But there's other flammables that are very, very lightweight that probably with the high heat could have evaporated completely.

But the lack of the burning on Thomas's body suggests he wasn't lit on fire.

The fire started somewhere else and was coming towards him with the fire being the closest to his head and his arms.

He has even more stuff, and I think this is all really interesting.

He says that the skin on Thomas's back was less burned than on other areas of his body.

And Spilsberry thinks that Thomas was laying on his back, and that's why.

Yes.

So listen to this.

There were hay fragments inside Thomas's air passages.

They were only partially burned.

Thomas's blood was bright red, indicating, of course, you know, exposure to carbon monoxide.

We've talked about that before, which is a byproduct of burning hay.

And Spillsbury thinks that Thomas was unconscious by the time he inhaled these pieces of hay because otherwise he would have woken up and

if he had the ability to wake up and gotten up, if this is an accident.

So what do you think about that stuff?

In his nasal passages, these pieces of hay.

It suggests,

in many ways, it's like a pathologist's findings in drowning.

You know, the inhalation of water into the lungs suggests, you know, the individual was at least breathing at the time the water was inhaled.

Here, it sounds like Thomas is still breathing and is pulling in these fragments of partially burned hay particles, which suggests that the fire is going.

And Thomas is still breathing.

Doesn't mean he has awareness.

He could be laying there, still alive, still breathing, but he's now succumbed to the smoke inhalation, the bright red blood, carbon monoxide.

You know, so he is in the process of dying as a result of lack of oxygen to his body.

while the fire is going on.

And that's probably all you can conclude with that.

But it also suggests that, well, this is in a situation to where let's say he was killed in some other location and then the offender drove his body out to this location and started the fire.

Unless, however, Thomas, you know, succumbed to whatever the offender did to him at the first location,

I would expect him to be dead by the time his body's at this location.

So, you know, what is going on here?

Is this homicide?

Is this accidental?

I don't see it as being suicide,

but I don't know if you can rule that out considering Thomas has a source of starting a fire with the matchbook that's in his pocket, you know.

And I don't know.

Right now, I think it's still a mystery with what you've told me.

Okay.

Maybe this will help make it less of a mystery.

And no, this is not, I gotcha.

Yeah, right.

This is just something that was part of the investigation.

It's true.

So Spilsbury did a lot of research, and I just read this too.

I did not know that hay can spontaneously combust.

Okay.

It happens.

Wet hay is actually more likely to spontaneously combust than dry.

They said that biological activity within the hay, which I guess happens more often because if it's wet, that it sets off a chemical reaction that generates enough heat to light hay on fire.

I've heard about that growing up.

And this is what Spillsbury thinks happened.

So he thinks that Thomas laid down to go to sleep on some damp straw between two haystacks so that he's protected from, you know, I don't know, the wind or people walking up on him.

One of which was probably about to combust because it did happen, and that he was asphyxiated from a lack of oxygen by lying so close to the smoldering fire.

And he was likely dead before the haystack fully burst into flames and burned his body.

And that's what he thinks happened.

What do you think?

Well, I am familiar.

You do have various agricultural products, you know, like in silos or something, where there is the possibility of this spontaneous combustion.

And sometimes it has to do with particulates that are in this enclosed space getting up to a certain level.

First time I'm hearing about wet hay, you know, but that it's, it's not surprising to me.

I'm not arguing against that as a possibility because of the lack of violence to Thomas's body.

But the question still remains, why is Thomas out at this location?

Yep.

And that's what bothers the coroner's jury because, you know, ultimately they agree with Spillsbury.

They had all had heard about this before.

It's a known phenomenon, which I had not heard of before.

So Spillsbury says this, and everybody buys it, except the jury does not think there is a reasonable explanation for why he would have gone to this place to begin with.

Sure.

And you have the ear witness.

Yep, the scream and the car.

And then you have the car.

You know, from my perspective, that puts enough suspicion into

what is the manner of death that, you know, I think today the ruling should be undetermined.

Okay.

Just because there's enough suspicious activity with witnesses and Thomas's victimology that you go, okay, we don't know how he died in terms of, well,

let me say it differently.

It appears that the fire was the cause of his death,

but we don't know, was this accidental because of spontaneous combustion?

We don't know, is this at the hands of another?

And Thomas was, you know, forced to be out there, or maybe

he was knocked unconscious.

And the amount of thermal damage to his skull is not allowing Spillsbury to see that there may have been, you know, a blow to his head.

You know, and then the fire was lit.

And this is, I think, important from a crime scene standpoint is in this day and age, this is where I get the state fire marshal's office, the arson investigator out, or the local fire department's arson investigators out

to answer the question, how did this fire start?

You know, and they're the ones that have the expertise, not I.

They can see, they see the, the, you know, the fire world so it's, it's, it's amazing to watch them work because they see so much that

I can't spot because I don't have that day in, day out experience of looking at the world after it's been burned.

Yeah.

But let's just buy into his theory that it is the spontaneous combustion of these haystacks or one of them that did this, that he was asleep.

He was close to the one that combusted, and the fumes got him first.

And by the time everything went up in flames, he was already dead.

Does everything that he is detailing, lack of poison, lack of disease, the hay in the nostrils, all of that stuff make sense to you if we are going to buy into the combustion theory?

Yes.

I cannot eliminate the possibility that this was an accidental death as a result of Thomas being in that hayfield that night for whatever reason, and there was spontaneous combustion.

Everything Spilsberry is lining up is entirely consistent with that.

Okay, say that again?

It is entirely consistent with that.

So he is still batting 1,000, my boyfriend, a pathologist who died probably 80 years ago or something.

Oh, I'm going to have to knock Spillsbury off of this pedestal you've put him on.

Well, I mean, really.

You know, but this is so important for

you have this experienced pathologist being able to outline this.

You know, now it's marrying up what his findings are with the investigation.

And that's where right now there appears to be a little bit of a conflict that needs to be resolved in order to really know what happened to Thomas.

Well, this is not a formally closed case.

They have not closed this case.

So I don't know if anybody's working it, but

this is not closed.

I think we might be the last ones working it, but it's definitely interesting.

Sometimes we do these, were they murdered?

You know, remember the actress that we just talked about a couple of months ago?

What happened?

Did she die in the car, in the garage?

You know, and sometimes murder is not the thing that we conclude, but but I think it's all interesting because look how much we talked about the processes that happen in the body and, you know, the different ways that pathologists have to look at these cases to try to systematically eliminate what everybody thinks is happening, which is oftentimes not true.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Sure.

But, you know, working in law enforcement, whether you're a homicide investigator, you're a CSI, pathologist, death investigator, we go out on cases which are,

we're not sure this is a homicide or not.

The proper mindset is always to treat it like a homicide because that's when all the resources are flowing in.

You enact all the resources to get everything documented, everything collected, everything that, you know, all the experts that would weigh in on a homicide case.

And then you go, oh, the haystack just

spontaneously combusted.

You know, it kind of reminds me of the couple who died near the lake.

And turns out the lake is putting off noxious gases.

Not a homicide.

It's an accidental death.

That always needs to be the approach in these cases.

And so that's why I get called out and there's suicides, but there's something, somebody goes, this doesn't look right.

And sometimes they're right and it's actually a homicide and it's been staged to look like a suicide, or it's an actual suicide and it's just an unusual one.

Sometimes I've had to go out to accidental deaths, you know, typically overdoses, but there's just enough to where somebody's going, this could be a homicide.

So in this particular case, I think with Thomas, from my perspective, is everything Spillsbury is outlining is, yes, this suggests that this was accidental.

I just think there's too much of a mystery of why Thomas is out in this hayfield and we have the ear witness observing a car going in and rapidly going out.

What's up with that?

You know, if that's actually even accurate.

And so, this is where I think the coroner's inquest that the proper finding is this is undetermined and law enforcement needs to proceed as if it's a homicide up until they're able to answer those questions.

Okay.

This case is one of the ones that's, I mean, that has taught me the most.

And of course, it's you and Spillsbury.

So we will definitely return to a Spillsbury case.

More you, Paul.

Don't get jealous.

Oh, God.

But I'm determined to bring you an actual murderer next week and not a guy in a haystack where we're trying to figure out exactly what happened.

But I love a good mystery, so you never know.

Right.

Well, you know, and I think, you know, part of it, you know, when you do work these types of cases, you learn from them.

So when you do have the homicide that has some similar parallels, there's experience that you can draw upon.

And the reality is, is that you can read all these CSI textbooks, pathology textbooks, everything else.

You can never, ever replace the experience of real life cases.

So this is a real life case that these Spillsbury, these officers, these investigators, they're all learning for the next case that comes along where now

they know how to kind of proceed once they see something that they've seen from Thomas's case.

I can almost guarantee you that when we come back from our one-week hiatus, that we will have a murder and it won't be a mystery case, but we'll see.

I can't guarantee anything.

You mean I've got to wait, what, two weeks before I hear this next case?

Oh, I know.

I'm sorry about that, buddy.

All right.

Well, I look forward to it then.

Thank you.

I'll see you then.

Sounds good.

This has been an exactly right production.

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com/slash buried bones sources.

Our senior producer is Alexis Emorosi.

Research by Marin McClashin, Allie Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

Our theme song is by Tom Breifogel.

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at Buried Bones Pod.

Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked: A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now.

And Paul's best-selling memoir, Unmasked: My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, is also available now.

Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Old cases, new waters.

We're taking buried bones on a cruise.

This October, we're setting sail with Virgin Voyages on the first ever True Crime Podcast Cruise, and we want you to join us.

We've got five nights of events, meetups, and mystery on board, plus a live taping of buried bones that you won't want to miss.

This is an all-inclusive experience.

No kids, no stress.

Join the True Crime Experience to the Dominican Republic and Biomini, Bahamas.

Book now at virginvoyages.com slash true crime.

That's virginvoyages.com slash true crime.

We'll see you on the ship.

This is an ad by BetterHelp.

We've all had that epic rideshare experience.

Halfway through your best friends, and they know your aspirations to go find yourself in Portugal.

It's human.

We're all looking for someone to listen, but not everyone is equipped to help.

With over a decade of experience, BetterHelp matches you with the right therapist.

See why they have a 4.9 rating out of 1.7 million client session reviews.

Visit betterhelp.com for 10% off your first month.

Every business has an ambition.

PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide.

And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo, Pay Later, and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up.

When it's time to get growing, there's one platform for all business: PayPal Open.

Grow today at paypalopen.com.

Loans subject to approval in available locations.