The Three Emmas

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I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st-century lens.

Some are solved, and some are cold.

Very cold.

This is Buried Bones.

Hey, Paul.

Hi, Kate.

You're wearing your glasses today.

I know.

My eyes were itchy and I just couldn't do the contacts today.

Don't shame me, listeners.

Sometimes I can't do it.

So I was thinking thinking about you in your white jacket role at Authram, which I know you don't wear a white jacket when you're there, but that's how I picture you.

Oh, geez.

And I wanted to ask you a little bit about what is the evolution of forensics?

Where are we heading?

I always keep thinking, oh, DNA is going to get better and better.

DNA analysis will get more accurate.

There has to be something sexier than that.

And I know that evolving DNA and getting better at the analysis of DNA is important, but is there anything else that you can talk to that is improving with time that we're going to be able to use to solve crimes?

Well, you know, a lot of forensics over the years, you know, there has been somewhat of an evolution no matter what type of forensic discipline that you're talking about.

Of course, God, it may have been even over a year ago.

You know, we've talked about how some of the forensic sciences have, you know, sort of taken a backseat.

They,

in some instances, just been completely discredited.

In others, the conclusions that could be drawn from them have been shown relatively weak.

And then we're seeing today, you know, I think,

of course, starting with Golden State Hiller, sort of the huge revolution of the use of genealogy to solve cases.

And that's something that is going to continue to move forward.

The reality is, is that the types of samples that you deal with from cases, whether they're collected at a crime scene or collected from the victim's body, are often very poor samples.

And so, really, a lot of the advancement over the last six years has been with the technology to be able to detect very, very minute amounts of DNA, even if it's highly, highly degraded.

And so, that's where some cases where you think, well, we just don't have anything.

Today, we have the tools to be able to at least generate the DNA profile.

I think, you know, across the board, the computerization that has occurred over the course of the last three decades or so, that's also been contributing to the advancement of these various scientific disciplines.

And of course, the utilization of artificial intelligence, AI is something that I think is inescapable to be applied to select aspects of forensics as we move forward, whether that is helping automate the genealogy process

or it's helping to put

objective assessments of comparative sciences and remove sort of the human human bias, you know, that might be present.

And I could kind of see where there may be movement.

That's not around the corner, but it may be here sooner than later as time goes on.

Of course, just

you can't talk about forensics without including high-tech.

You know, I was on the early forefront of high-tech doing kind of a very rudimentary form of that back in the late 1990s, and then had a Kremlinist assigned to the FBI's FBI's RCFL, their regional computer forensic laboratory.

And it just happened to be the Silicon Valley site there in the Bay Area.

And I had started that back in the mid-2000s.

You know, and it's just recognizing that the pervasive aspect of technology at our lives is a form of physical evidence.

It's not just the data, but it's the hardware.

And

as time goes on, you know, the public laboratories and the public, you know, law enforcement investigators, they're just going to get better and better tools to be able to utilize that type of evidence to help solve cases.

I had wondered, will there ever be a movement to go through and correctly preserve evidence that is X number of years old in cold case files across the country?

Because, you know, you and I talk about, oh, there probably is biological evidence in this case from 1930 or something, particularly like a sexual assault case, but Lord knows how it's been preserved.

Is there any kind of an idea that this might be a good idea to go and like correctly preserve this?

Not go through and run DNA on everything, but at least preserve it so that if money becomes available to these different departments, that it would be, you know, preserved correctly?

Aaron Powell, well, in many instances, that has happened.

Okay.

You know, departments, as they've

improved their property storage, improved their property management, they've expanded their freezer storage and the known biological evidence is being put into freezers.

Now, this is not universal.

And in California, we had a case law, people versus nation, like 1981, 83 timeframe, which in essence mandated law enforcement to start preserving biological evidence in a proper way way in terms of how it's packaged as well as being in a refrigerated or frozen state.

So California, that's been going on for some time and that mandated departments, large and small, to start buying freezers and start putting their evidence in there.

Now there are departments that have gone, you know, they get a cold case investigator and he or she ends up going through the evidence and now is saying, oh, this evidence, a sexual assault kit that's been, you know, sitting out here at room temperature, you know, for years, needs to go into a freezer.

That type of thing does happen from time to time.

But I can think of, even with my old department,

there's old, old cases, homicide cases, in which there's bulky evidence, things like clothing,

jackets, mattresses, pillows, sheets, that

if they were to try to put that into a freezer, they would rapidly run out of freezer space.

yet those items could have biological evidence that could solve the case.

So you're kind of, you're kind of stuck because you can't realistically in the public sector buy a walk-in freezer the size of a huge warehouse to store all your bulky items in a frozen state to preserve what might be present on there.

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Well, I wanted to get you talking about forensics because we have virtually no forensics in this story.

That was a bait and switch.

Well, I wanted to get it over with because I know you missed the forensics part of this, and this is all victimology.

And really, what I'm going to try to do is see as we move along who is the likely victim and who is the likely killer in this scenario in a what I feel like is a very complicated situation between several people.

I will tell you, this is a story of three Emmas.

Uh-oh.

Getting your pencil out?

I have to write this down.

Emma 1, Emma 2, and Emma 3, huh?

Hey, that's what Maren did, yes.

And instead,

because I don't want to drive myself crazy with Emma 1, Emma 2, and Emma 3, it turns out that two out of the three Emmas actually had nicknames.

So we're going to go with their nicknames.

So I just wanted you to know that these are all three women named Emma and they are at the center of a really nasty story.

So let's go take a trip down to the great state of Texas where I live and let's set the scene.

San Antonio.

You know San Antonio, right?

I do actually.

I lived there from fifth through the seventh grade.

Okay.

So this is 1910s San Antonio and this happens in 1914.

San Antonio is the biggest city in the state in this time period, in the decade in the 1910s.

The city is really exploding with its population, and the residents are wonderfully diverse.

The U.S.

military has opened flight training centers around this time period, and there's an influx of pilots in San Antonio, and a lot of them go on to serve in World War I, which will happen in just a few years.

And on top of that, there is a great community made up of various cultures.

On the heels of the Mexican Revolution, we have a lot of Mexican immigrants in the city, and there's a strong European presence, large German population, a growing number of black residents also.

So this is, I hate using the term melting pot because it feels generic, but this really is a lot of people.

It almost feels like Gilded Age Manhattan to me, where there are a lot of people living in a...

big city, but also closely together at the same time, which as we know, can be wonderful and it can also be tension-filled.

And we've had those stories too.

Sure.

You know, when you mentioned German population, all of a sudden I just had memories rush back into my head about, I think it was called the Beer Fest.

Is that

it's a like worst fest, yes.

For sure, you know, and going down there and enjoying the German food.

And, you know, as a kid, it was probably just their bratwurst or whatever it was, but, you know, it was good.

You have just, I don't know how you do this every time.

You have just foreshadowed this story just with the

beer in German.

You did it.

Well, there you go.

Okay.

The main family that we're talking about is the Kaler family, and it's spelled K-O-E-H-L-E-R.

And the patriarch is Otto.

He is a German immigrant.

He and his wife, Emma, live in San Antonio, and they are multi-millionaires.

We've talked about millionaires over and over again.

I feel like the last few stories we've done are on multi-millionaires, but I think these are the first brewers that we've had on the show.

Otto runs a brewery called the San Antonio Brewing Association, which produces a beer that they've called Pearl Beer.

And it's the largest, you know, brewery in Texas at the time.

And Pearl now is like a multi-use section of San Antonio.

There's a great bookstore there.

You know, it's this great like segment of San Antonio and you can go and there's wonderful restaurants and stuff.

So I was familiar with Pearl when I read the story.

I did not know the origin of the story.

So Otto Kaler and his wife live in San Antonio.

He runs this brewery.

He is involved in mining and banking and real estate and they have just a huge amount of money.

Things take a turn in their family around 1910.

And really the center of the story starts four years later, but this is important.

His His wife, Emma, is involved in a serious accident.

And it sounds like it was a car accident, but I don't have any real confirmation of that.

But she needs a caregiver.

Otto winds up hiring a 20-something nurse from Germany to look after Emma.

Her name is Emma.

Her full name is Emma Doomke.

But, you know, we can call her Emmy.

That's also a nickname.

So we're going to go with Emmy.

So Emma, the wife, is in a car accident and needs kind of full-time care.

So, Otto wants to hire a nurse and he hires Emmy.

Are you clear on this?

Now we've got two Emmas, but it's really an Emma and an Emmy, Paul.

Yep, I've got Emma, Emmy.

Emma needs a caregiver, is the wife of Otto, and Emmy is a 27-year-old female who's the nurse that's going to care for Emma.

20-something, but probably 27.

It's a pretty good choice,

so Emma and Emmy become close friends.

But as I know what happens sometimes, Emmy and Otto have a romantic relationship behind Emma's back to a point where he even buys a small house for her that's not too far away from his house.

The optics are pretty bad, I think, for Otto at this point.

He has a lot of money.

His wife is bedridden and he's having an affair with the nurse, which is a story that's very old.

I mean, this happens.

Yeah, and he has resources in order to be able to, you know, kind of set up a love shack.

Yeah, bungalow, love shack.

I don't know if they had love shacks back in 1910, but

there's like a love bungalow, maybe.

I don't know.

A little house, a little house around the corner.

So Emmy decides that she needs a roommate.

Another problem here.

Her name is also Emma, but we're going with her nickname, which is Heda.

So Heda Bergemeister, and she is an attractive blonde is how she's described in her early 30s.

She is also German, and she is a nurse.

And so Otto hires her as an additional member of his wife's care team.

So now we've got these two attractive women working with Emma, and Otto is very busy, of course.

So I don't know why I think in 1910 this would have never happened, but it does.

The three of these people are now in a relationship.

Heda, the last nurse, Emmy, and then Otto, all behind Emma's back.

They're all in a relationship that seems sort of more transactional than romantic.

Transactional, I think, in meaning Otto is paying them and he gets to have sex with them.

And that is that.

And do you know, do Emmy and Hedda know that Otto is engaging with both of them?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

For sure.

So this is open and understood.

Open and understood.

He deeds the small house to both of these women.

So now they're sharing the house and they own it.

And he gives them a generous monthly stipend.

And in return, this is the Houston Chronicle newspaper trying to be polite.

In return, the Chronicle says that Otto is able to drop by once a week or so for two or three hours for whatever he wants to do.

So he is able to have two girlfriends.

He pays for a house, and he's getting nursing care for his wife out of this.

This does not seem like a good setup for something.

I don't know how long this kind of a relationship can last.

What do you think about all this?

I mean, this is not a great.

You know, we're a true crime show.

Somebody's dead here.

Well, you know, I think, you know, this is where we

get into this relationship, Otto, Emmy, and Hedda.

At some point, are there feelings that develop between Otto and Emmy, or feelings that develop between Otto and Hedda, or even Emmy and Hedda that can cause a level of jealousy with the others that are part of this triangle?

Right.

You know, I think just from, you know, a human nature aspect, at some point, that potentially could come into play,

and of course, with those types of emotions can often breed a level of violence.

So I'll see how this develops.

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This is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal.

Are there two sides to every story?

Academy Award nominee Robin Wright stars in the girlfriend on Prime, a psychological thriller that will make you question everything you think you know.

Laura has the dream job, the perfect husband, and a son she'd die for.

But when her beloved Daniel brings home his new girlfriend Cherry, played by Olivia Cook, something feels off.

Is Cherry the sweet, innocent girl she appears to be?

Or is there something more manipulative beneath the surface?

And how far will a mother go to protect her son?

Also starring Lori Davidson, the girlfriend is a twisted game of cat and mouse where nothing is what it seems, and everyone has something to hide.

Don't miss the girlfriend, streaming now exclusively on Prime.

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I'm going to show you a photo first of Otto and Emma, his wife.

I mean, is this guy on the right who you're picturing having two girlfriends around the corner from his wife who is bedridden?

Well, you know, that photo makes him look very distinguished and wealthy.

You know, so I could see where,

you know, two younger women could potentially,

whether or not they find him the most physically attractive man, but most certainly his

status, if you want to put it that way, may increase their draw to him.

His wife, Emma, she looks, I mean, she looks close to elderly.

She looks like her grandma in that photo.

She knows.

Yeah.

But then I take it this is Emmy and Hedda.

So Hedda's in the upper left and Emmy's in the center.

And I have not told you yet what's happening with any of these people.

But obviously, there's a pretty big difference between these two young women and his wife.

I feel like I just continue to be surprised by this sort of scandalous thing happening in 1910, which is silly.

Scandalous things happen so far back, but I just felt like this was a little surprising to me for some reason.

But let's go through this.

So this arrangement seems to be fine.

This happens for at least a few years.

So he is paying them to take care of his wife.

He is paying them to basically be able to have sex with them a couple of times a week, it sounds like.

And they own a house that he's given them.

I don't know.

I mean, a couple of years, that's a long time.

Yeah, but over the course of years, I mean, you have, you know, just in relationships, the early part of the relationship is what we often refer to as the honeymoon period, right?

You know, everybody's feeling good, emotions are high, you're in love.

Who knows with Otto and Emmy and Hedda if love is even a factor in this?

As you mentioned earlier, this may be strictly transactional on both sides.

They're benefiting through financial assets.

They've gotten a house.

He's giving them a stipend.

They're steadily employed.

He's benefiting.

He's got these younger women that he's able to come over and have sex with.

And, you know, it may be just that.

But also, you know, jealousies, emotions can develop, you know, and it may not necessarily be somebody falls in love with somebody else.

It may be where now maybe Emmy is thinking that Heda is getting more of Otto's financial attention and now gets gets upset about that, or vice versa.

You know, different things can happen over the course as the honeymoon period fades, and now other things are being looked at, and some things go stale.

And, you know, it's just, this is all part of any relationship.

We're talking about a 55-year-old man who is involved with a woman in her 30s and then a woman in her 20s.

Now things get a little complicated.

And you could tell me, based on everybody's reactions, what you think this means.

Everything seems to go okay as far as we can tell for a couple of years with this arrangement.

It doesn't sound like Emma, the wife, knows.

They have a really big house.

Still, he's so safe that he puts these two women in a separate house to make sure they aren't caught.

Even though, no joke, this is a massive house.

They probably could have had privacy anywhere, but I suppose he's being extra careful.

A couple of years after this arrangement starts, Emmy, the very first nurse, tells Otto that she is getting married and she is dumping him.

She has had enough.

She gets married and becomes Emmy Dumpkey Doshel and she moves to St.

Louis with her new husband.

And we are in San Antonio.

So she clears out.

She leaves in response.

Now I need you to be a man.

So I'm not a man until you tell me you need me to be a man.

No, I need you to think like a man.

I don't want you to think like Mr.

Investigator.

Think like a guy.

Okay.

He, Otto, in response, decides to propose to Hedda, the second nurse.

He is married to Emma still.

She is alive.

They've been married for two decades.

It sounds like Otto might actually have more emotional stake in these relationships than the women do.

Why would he do that?

He's already married and he proposed to stop her from leaving, maybe?

Well, it seems odd, but you know, I kind of take a look.

He's been in a relationship with Emmy, if you will.

And then she she obviously was seeing somebody to a point to where she developed emotions and was proposed to and agreed to marry this other man.

And Otto may not have been completely clueless that this other man existed.

So I can see where he felt some sort of attachment, but it's not necessarily like a, you know, I love you, I want to marry you type of attachment to Emmy.

But in many ways, Otto may be feeling rejected,

you know, because he's been coming over, he's been taking care of her financially, setting her up in the house, being employed, and then now she's like, nope, see ya.

So I can see where he could be a little bit upset under those circumstances.

I just don't see where, okay, Emmy's out of the picture.

And so that now frees him up to all of a sudden develop some deep emotional connection to Hedda.

I also, with his business savvy, if you will, I wonder if marrying Hedda would somehow,

I mean, Hedda and Emmy share the deed on

this residence, you know, and

is there some sort of financial aspect that he's trying to protect, you know, by marrying Hedda?

I don't know, but I'm not even sure how, during this era, how would the courts permit him to marry Hedda if he is still legally married to Emma?

I don't think they would.

And I think that a divorce is more, well, certainly a divorce was more difficult in 1914 than it would have been, you know, now it would have been difficult.

My mom and I were just talking about, it's not a great conversation to have, I guess, but about people who just go from relationship to relationship.

They don't want to be alone and they don't want to break up their pattern.

I wondered if he was so used to having one of those two women or both those women available to him that he sort of freaked and didn't want to change anything.

Probably somebody who has made that amount of money.

And remember what I told you he did for a living.

He was in banking and mining, real estate deals.

He had this brewery.

This is someone who was on a very specific schedule.

I mean, he was accomplishing thing after thing.

He had to stay organized.

And I wonder if he thought with Emmy leaving that maybe Hedda would fall in love with someone and leave.

And then would he ever find this relationship with, sorry to say, two hot young women ever again?

Probably not.

I mean, maybe maybe he was desperate.

No, I think that's, that's a fair way to look at it from a man's perspective, an aging man perspective.

So here you go.

I'm giving you a guy perspective, if you will.

I mean, Otto is, in essence, my age, you know?

You look so much younger, though, Paul, I have to say.

I mean,

1914 was rough on men, I think.

He looks like he's in his six, in his mid to late 60s to me.

Yeah, you know, and that's, well, that's an interesting aspect when you look at photos of individuals from this timeframe.

They look so much older than what their age actually is.

You know, but I'm just thinking, you know, the insecurities as a guy when you get older, you know, and now it's like, oh, I am losing.

I'm never going to get the chance again to have this type of relationship that Otto is obviously enjoying over the course of several years.

And so maybe he is latching on to Heda just to preserve that aspect.

I just, in 1914, don't see quote-unquote proper women, professional women, like a nurse or something, being willing to do this.

He gets to see them in the house.

Maybe he gets to sneak a little, you know, nookie with him while they're in the house every once.

It's very convenient for Otto.

And when this is 50% of his resource here is left, I think he springs this question on Heda.

Now, she says, hell no.

And she sounds like very sweet, actually.

She sounds like a nice woman.

She She said, Mrs.

Kaler is a sick woman, and I would never leave her behind, meaning like I would not go and marry you and let you ditch her when she's sick and helpless.

She is not professing her love for Otto and saying, I really wish I could marry you.

What she's saying is, is this is not practical and this is not nice to do to your wife.

So she said no to him.

She turned him down.

Yeah, but you know, but she still does have benefit by maintaining the financial relationship with Otto.

And I'm wondering, even though she's saying, no, I don't want to marry you, is there still going to be this, for lack of a better term, conjugal aspect to their relationship?

Or is she just going, nope, I'm cutting you off completely from any type of physical interaction?

No, that's the short answer.

She is hopeful that he wants to continue this financial arrangement, and he is happy to do it.

Now we come to the time where we are going to have a killer and a victim and also trying to figure out, you know, what the motive is here.

It's November 12th, 1914.

Emmy is back.

So now their little trio is complete.

She wants to go visit Hedda.

She's married though, and Otto is slated to stop by Hedda's little house that same evening, like he does often.

So this has, you know, continued on.

It sounds like Otto was fine with not being able to marry her, but that, you know, as long as this arrangement continues, that he was happy.

So some of the newspaper reports said that he owed Hedda some money.

I don't know if that was just like her monthly allowance.

I know she got an allowance and she got paid, but he was going to stop by because of that and probably for sex.

We don't know.

So Emmy is home at her old house.

Hedda is home.

And Otto comes between four o'clock and five o'clock.

Shortly after he arrives, there are three gunshots heard from the house.

So neighbors rush over and locate who the victim is.

At this point, this could be one of three people.

I mean, I think the only one who is safe in this scenario is Emma, the wife, who's at home in bed.

But you've got the woman who left, who he might have feelings for, who dumped him.

You've got the woman who turned down his marriage proposal.

And then you have Otto, who clearly is a sleazy man who is, you know, in hopes of controlling these women to a certain extent.

So if you were a betting man, and I have no idea if you are, who would you think the victim is in this situation?

Three shots.

When you say, who is the victim?

I mean, is there a chance that there's victims?

Maybe.

You know, on one hand, like you say,

three gunshots, I mean, I could see murder-suicide, Otto and Emmy.

I could see murder-suicide, Otto and Heda, you know?

Okay.

If I were to bet, and part of this is just being,

the bias is Otto's the shooter, and he could be taking both of these women out.

There could be, as I mentioned before, the feeling of rejection with Emmy.

There may be a financial aspect with her running off with this other man, but also possessing, you know, 50% of the property he has.

Hedda just rejected him for marriage, and he may be deciding that, you know what, it's time that this comes to end.

And if he feels that he can somehow get away with taking out both these women, that may preserve his social status, may preserve his financial assets, as long as he gets away with the crime.

I don't know.

I think that's where I would lean.

But I think, you know, in this dynamic, just about any permutation of a crime in terms of somebody ending up dead is possible.

Well, I like your guess.

That's a good one.

And I think that that makes sense.

When the neighbors come, after they hear the shots, they rush in and nobody's around until they get to Heda's bedroom.

Hedda is there and Otto is the person who was murdered.

He has been shot three times with a.32 caliber revolver.

Hedda is discovered kneeling by Otto's body.

She has a self-inflicted cut to her wrist.

So the suggestion is that she was trying to die by suicide.

There is a bloody knife laying on the ground next to her and two handguns are nearby.

She tells the police, I'm sorry, but I had to kill him.

And this is where the story gets complicated.

If you thought a love affair between two nurses who you're paying to come over a couple times a week and your wife is bedridden was not complicated enough, trying to figure out why she killed this man is more complicated.

Huh.

So, right now, this was a murder-suicide where the suicide attempt failed.

Right.

Hedda is immediately setting up a self-defense defense here.

So first, let me tell you about the bullets.

According to reporting by the Associated Press, one bullet broke his neck, another penetrated the skull just below the left eye, and a third had entered his breast.

It was a, I told you, 32 caliber revolver.

It was Hedda's gun.

She carried a gun, and I did not know this, but many, many, the majority of women carried guns in this time period, which I don't know why I was surprised, but I was.

Yet again, I'm surprised by one of our stories.

So there's two guns.

One is his and one is Hedda's.

And where would he normally carry his gun?

So it does not say where he got the gun from, but he had a gun according to the women on him, and there is a gun there that doesn't belong to either of them, and they've identified that belongs to Otto.

Okay.

You know, so when you say that Hedda is setting up a self-defense, she's probably making statements that he came into the room, he drew the gun, and therefore she had to shoot him because he pointed the gun at her.

It's a lot more physical than that.

It's not that simple.

There is the discussion of the argument, and he, they say, becomes physical with the two of them, these two women.

And that's why it's self-defense.

And that's why she said to police, I'm sorry, but I had to kill him.

So, you know, we can talk about what happens next.

She is whisked off to a hospital because of the wrist wound and put under police supervision while her wounds are tended to, she makes a full recovery.

Emmy, who was there, is put under surveillance, but she's never charged with any crime related to Otto's death.

So it's really all focused on Hedda.

According to the Houston Chronicle, the Kaylor family told one of the newspapers that there had been a dispute over a bill that Hedda had submitted for Emma's care.

Otto drove to the house to settle the matter, and this is from his family's point of view.

When he and Hedda started arguing, she got frightened and went for her gun.

That's kind of what Hedda says happened too.

She says she killed him in self-defense.

She said that Otto had been apparently choking Emmy.

Emmy says that she thought that Otto was going to shoot her because he had a gun.

I don't know at what point we can call it self-defense or not when it's the only two people who survived are saying that the victim is the one who was the aggressor.

So, how do you even sort something like that out?

Well, this is, you know, in terms of trying to get

you have two living individuals in this crime, right?

Otto can't make statements, but Emmy and Hedda can make statements.

And of course, it is going to be dependent upon, was there any cooperation and agreements made between these two ahead of time?

You know, was this a planned homicide?

However, once investigators arrive on scene or once law enforcement arrives on scene, those two absolutely have to be separated and interviewed to try to determine, you know, or lock in their statements early, early on.

But I know, you know, we opened up this episode and saying, this isn't a forensics case.

Oh, yes, it is.

Oh,

okay.

Because now we have to take a look at what Hedda is saying and what Emmy is saying, how

things went down, but also take a look at the trajectories of the bullets.

Where are they entering?

Is there any indications of distance on these wounds?

What is

the flight path

that these bullets took?

And do these trajectories and all the other assorted firearms evidence line up with the statements that Hedda and Emmy are saying?

So there is a forensics component that could say, hold on, you're saying you were standing over there and he's strangling Emmy, and so you took out your gun and shot him or whatever the story is.

Does that match up with the physical evidence?

You know, so that's where, you know, if I'm looking at this case today, that's one of the things I would really be keying in on.

One of the issues, I think, with this story also, I mean, besides that, I don't have some of the diagrams and everything that we're looking at here.

We really just have people's words and their descriptions of what makes sense and what doesn't.

So it sounds like some of the statements, I think this must have been Emmy, say that that afternoon, Otto came in, brushed past Emmy in the living room, and headed straight to Hedda's bedroom.

She was laying on the bed with a cloth covering her eyes.

It sounds like he tried to kiss her and she got mad.

He threatens her and pulls out a gun and she shoots him with this 32 revolver.

One of the things the prosecutor is going to talk about is how many shots she took and did she shoot him when he was already on the ground?

And I've heard that in other cases too.

That makes a difference, right?

Does that make a difference to jurors whether or not it seems like the person has been incapacitated and you continue shooting?

Then it's like all of a sudden it's like, oh, no, that's not self-defense.

They were already on the ground.

What are you doing?

Of course not.

This is malicious.

Yeah, it all depends on the circumstances, you know, and I think you can make arguments in terms of, yes, you've took it past self-defense.

You know, you've neutralized the threat, the person's down on the ground.

However, you are likely dealing with a

naive shooter.

You don't know if you've neutralized the threat or not.

And so now you continue to shoot.

And it's not indicating that it wasn't initially, that the shooting itself wasn't initially started because of a self-defense aspect.

You know, so that's, it's almost like it's a, it's, it's a follow-through, if you will.

You know, and that's, that's really for prosecutors, the DAs, when they're assessing a case and how to charge the case, they are going to be assessing those types of human elements.

But, you know, under that scenario where she's laying on the bed and he comes up to kiss her.

and they get mad, does she indicate while she's on the bed and while he's that close to her is when she shoots him?

No, we're going to have to take a tiny, tiny detour because she has shut up for now and she has been charged with murder the twist is she takes off before the court date she leaves and goes back to germany

and she's gone i know hedda so listen to i mean these women this is interesting she is gone for it looks like at least two to three years

and because she's a nurse and it's world war one

she tends to wounded soldiers during world war one while she is on the run from murder charges in Texas.

She decides inexplicably to go back to Texas because she wants to have a criminal trial and declare that this was self-defense and she wants to come back.

And she says, Bring it on.

I want to have a self-defense case.

Let's do it.

That seems like an awful idea.

Why not stay in Germany?

I mean, I don't know.

Well, maybe staying in Germany during World War I is not a great idea.

That may be part of it.

You know, getting to motive.

Heda loses so much by killing Otto.

So from a planned homicide standpoint, there has to be some other mitigating factor for Heda to go, I need to take him out.

So absent any knowledge of any, of that type of mitigating factor, you know, this is where, okay.

Was this a self-defense issue?

I could see that from Hedda's standpoint.

If Otto ended up becoming physically aggressive and or pulls the gun out during this argument, that would make sense.

So it negates Hedda's reliance upon Otto's finances, you know, because she loses that when he's dead.

Her coming all the way back.

I mean, she's, I couldn't imagine extradition out of Germany from World War I.

I don't think that's happening.

She's untouchable over there.

So she was free and clear.

So for her to come back and, in essence, roll the dice at trial, you know, that tends to suggest to me that there's a level of truthfulness to what Hedda is saying happened.

Well, let's see what happens.

She is rearrested.

She is unwavering in her claim that she acted in self-defense to protect her and Emmy because Emmy was there too.

He was angry.

He was aggressive.

He was mad because Heda said, don't kiss me for whatever reason.

And she is on the stand.

Another reason she probably shouldn't have done this.

She is on the stand, which I normally would not think is a good idea.

But the DA says to Heda, exactly what I had mentioned to you before.

Did you shoot him on the floor after he was dead?

I guess indicating we're, you know, this was passion and you were mad and you were aggressive, not him.

You were aggressive.

She says, I don't know.

I only know I shot him as he raised the pistol.

I thought he would get me and I shot him again.

And then she says this, Paul, then I raised the pistol to my head and pulled the trigger.

And the DA says, how many times?

And she says, I don't know.

Obviously, it didn't work.

I guess she unloaded all the bullets.

But he says then later on, well, it sounds like you had better aim at Mr.

Kaler than you did it yourself, to which I guess she couldn't say anything.

So if we believe Heda, she kills Otto, and then she attempts to take her own life twice.

That's with the gun as well as with this incisive injury to her wrist from the knife.

Right.

Yep.

So again, there's a forensic component to this.

She's got a 32 revolver that she's putting to her head and pulling the trigger, she says twice, right?

Depending on the make and model of a gun, this is where, you know, getting a good firearms expert, sometimes you can see evidence that

the cartridge, the round that is underneath

the hammer at the time she pulls the trigger or the way it rotates when you pull the trigger on a revolver, it rotates the live round and then you'll see the hammer drop and you potentially could have some evidence to show, yes, you know, that round, you know, there was an attempt to fire that round based on maybe a very subtle firing pin impression or some other aspect.

But this goes to when that gun is initially collected, it needs to be thoroughly documented as to you have a cylinder and depending on the make and model does let's say six or six rounds in this the cylinder do you have six lives do you have let's say in this under her scenario there's three shots to auto are there three expended rounds out of her 32 and then where are the other three rounds located at is there evidence that they potentially did have hammer strikes or firing pin strikes on them you know and and and that's all just part of what we do routinely in this day and age at a crime scene, or if I've got the weapon back in the lab, I'm documenting all of that and unloading the weapon.

And then that goes to a firearms examiner who then is able to start to ascertain, you know, what exactly are the dynamics that the physical evidence can answer.

Under the scenario of Heda not remembering how many shots she fired or whether or not she remembered firing into him after he's laying down, that's not an unusual occurrence in this type of scenario.

If this was truly a traumatic event for Heda, she's doing this in self-defense.

Human memory is goofy.

We see this all the time with officer-involved shootings.

When you talk to the shooting officer, when they're interviewed, they don't know the number of rounds they shot.

Sometimes they put themselves in a different position out at the crime scene than what the body cam or other footage video footage shows.

And this is just the normal aspect of how human memory captures things during this traumatic and very dynamic and very quick scenario.

Aaron Powell, Jr.: Well, you know, let's talk about 1914.

I've done stories in 1918 about a serial poisoner who no one believed would have actually murdered people.

Just they could not believe it.

And I think that the DA is in for an uphill battle here because the testimony that she gives on the stand is compelling.

The Associated Press says that courtroom spectators openly wept during this testimony, so she sounds like she did a great job on the stand.

There was a recess, and she walked back to the stand to continue testifying.

There's reportedly an outburst of clapping from the men and women packed into the courtroom.

The testimony that she gave seems so compelling, it seemed like she really framed Otto as this monster, and she was defending herself.

And it sounds like, Paul, everything you're saying kind of lines up with, why would she kill him?

You know, this doesn't make any sense unless it was self-defense.

Sure.

You know, but as I mentioned, is there other mitigating factors that existed or you haven't told me yet?

And then what has Emmy said?

Emi backs up everything.

Everything that Hedda says, Emmy says happen.

So this is a case where, you know, you have these two women who are saying the same thing, that Otto was the aggressive one and that they were both scared and she saved both of their lives.

That is the opinion.

Did Otto have a life insurance policy in which they were beneficiaries of?

Not that I know.

Okay.

I'm just trying to look for some motive if they planned this.

Well, let me tell you what ends up happening, and maybe this gives you any insight here.

So I think everybody who's listening knows where this is probably going to go.

The court in January of 1918 found that Hedda had acted in self-defense.

She is declared not guilty.

She turns around and decides that she's going to sue his family for $20,000 because he promised her $20,000, which by the way is $630,000 today.

I don't know if she received it.

I doubt it.

I don't know if that was a true claim or not, but she definitely had money on the mind and she ends up marrying one of the jurors.

What do you think about it?

I know those are two things I smacked you in the face with.

Sorry.

I'm not overly concerned about her turning around and doing the civil suit.

She was fortunate in that, you know, they acquitted her of the murder charges.

If she's truly innocent, she's been run through the ringer and is now going, hey, you guys traumatize me.

You cost me my reputation, my financial earnings, whatever it is.

And that doesn't speak one way or another in my mind in terms of Hedda's,

if there's anything suspicious.

Now, marrying the juror, you know, of course, it comes down to when did they first interact?

Were they doing goo-goo eyes at each other during trial?

You know, was there any observations that maybe there had been some relationship established?

Because obviously, you know, that's where that juror should be dismissed and shouldn't be weighing in on guilt when it comes to Heda.

You know, so what is the story behind that?

I don't know.

I wish I did.

I know they moved back into her bungalow that Otto had deeded to them, to both women.

And I guess probably she paid Emmy off, you know, and so now she owns this house.

I still think this sounded like self-defense, but you never know.

You've got three people, one of them's dead, and the other two have a very high interest in protecting each other.

Yeah, you know, and that's, I think, the hardest thing to be able to tease out in this case is you do have Emmy and Hedda who've, they're obviously got some sort of close relationship.

Yeah.

They're sharing the same man.

They're getting the same financial resources from this guy.

I kind of go back to, you know, what I said before is that, you know, here we have relationships and human nature occurring, then we have a crime.

Yeah.

And we have a homicide.

And even though you indicated that this isn't a forensics case, the reality is because of the circumstances and the potential allegiance between the only two witnesses to this crime, one who's the defendant,

this is where, you know, physical evidence needs to at least be assessed and to determine, is somebody lying?

But right now, I think I'm with you.

I think Hedda was likely truthful.

This was self-defense.

And the most notable thing about that is the fact that she came all the way back from Germany to stand trial.

Yeah.

To clear her name, in essence.

And that's where I go, okay, she didn't have to do that.

No.

Well, let me tell you the ending of the story.

I actually don't know what happens to Hedda and to Emmy.

I'm assuming they go on, hopefully, and have nice lives.

Emma Kaler, the widow, recovers from this awful accident with the help of, I guess, her nurses.

I don't know.

She becomes a very sort of strong, ambitious woman.

She's healthy enough to take over the brewery and keep it afloat through Prohibition and the Great Depression, which I will tell you was no easy feat, I'm sure.

She puts a lot of her own money into the brewery and it becomes very, very successful.

Eventually, she sells to Paps and around 2000, the company, the Pearl Brewery, is shut down.

But not long after that, a developer buys the property, like I told you before, and transforms it into this wonderful development that you have to see, I think, in San Antonio, known as the Pearl.

And there is a, well, I think you're going to like this.

There is a world-class hotel called the Hotel Emma, which opened in 2015.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

And it has many of the original brewery features, you know, that make it feel very authentic.

So, now

you got to let me get through this.

You'll appreciate this.

You can, if you go there, get a cocktail that honors all three Emmas in one glass.

Okay.

Grapefruit juice, which is a Texas fruit, is the base.

Then Emma, number one, the wife who owned the brewery, gets represented with a pearl beer with rose syrup.

Emmy, the first nurse, is represented by Sherry and Heda.

The third is Jen.

And the saying,

this is funny, the saying goes that one is great, but three will kill you.

Yeah,

I was going to say that's

a hangover and waiting right there.

I usually don't laugh at the end of murder stories, but I don't know.

We don't know what happened in that house.

We don't know what happened with those women.

I agree with you.

I feel like the feeling is, if you're going off instinct, the feeling was self-defense.

I don't know what was going through Otto's mind.

I know that he thought money could control two women, and it did for quite a while.

I think probably the right outcome happened, and I'm glad that the pearl turned out to be as wonderful as it was.

And I'm certainly glad that Emma, one of the victims in this circumstance, ended up recovering and became just an awesome businesswoman.

Yeah, you know, I think I'm convinced.

I'm going to go check out this Pearl area in San Antonio one of these times when I'm out there.

Maybe I'll visit you in Austin and we can take a little road trip down to San Antonio.

Along with a designated driver, if we're going to have the three Emmas.

All right, folks, you heard that.

Three Emmas all at once.

One is great, but three will kill you.

Okay, well, next week we will not have three Emmas.

We could have one.

I don't know.

Sometimes,

probably every ninth episode, I think there's an Emma thrown in there.

But we will definitely have another compelling story.

Maybe in Texas, we have so many of those.

Maybe in Colorado, but we will see.

All right.

Well, again, looking forward to it.

Thanks.

This has been an Exactly Right Production.

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com/slash buried bones sources.

Our senior producer is Alexis Emorosi.

Research by Marin McClashin, Allie Elkin, and Kate Winkler-Dawson.

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

Our theme song is by Tom Breifogel.

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

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