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I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson.

I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st-century lens.

Some are solved, and some are cold.

Very cold.

This is Buried Bones.

Hey, Kate, how's it going?

It's going well, Paul.

How about you?

I'm doing very well.

Thank you.

Listen, I have listener mail that pertains directly to you.

And I've never done this before, but I thought this was such an interesting comment.

I wanted to get your reaction before you say anything.

It's from a man, so it's not from a woman, which surprised me.

I think you get a lot of female attention is the impression I get.

You know what?

I don't look at online comments or anything like that.

So I'm a little bit scared about what I'm about to hear.

Well, Paul, I think listeners have heard this before.

You don't watch yourself.

You don't listen.

I listen to all of our episodes on our behalf

because you don't like to even listen to your own voice.

You have such a great voice.

I've never understood that.

No, you know what?

I just don't understand that.

And nobody ever commented on my voice before I got into the podcast world.

You know, so in the day-to-day world during my career, I was just Paul talking the way I talk.

Yeah.

Okay.

Let me read this because I think it's sweet.

Hi, Kate.

I'm a 71-year-old fan of Buried Bones.

I'm also a binge reader of detective novels.

Since listening to you and Paul so often, every time a male detective or a marshal speaks in one of these novels, I hear him speaking in Paul's voice.

I just thought that was so sweet.

And I emailed him back and I said, I do the same thing now every time I either write dialogue from a police officer or I hear something, you know, like I hear it in my head in the book.

It's your voice, which is a good thing.

Thank goodness you have a good voice, Paul.

But I thought that was a very sweet comment.

That tells me there's too much Paul out there.

We need to get some other voices out of the law enforcement field.

No, no, no, no.

But I mean, that's, it's, I think it's nice that what you say resonates with people so much.

I think that you kind of represent the good officers, the good investigators, the good forensics people out there.

So I thought it was really nice.

No, that's, I mean, that is very nice.

And, you know, I hope that the people who do listen, you know, recognize that I try to come off with a level of authenticity and to reflect.

I worked with just amazing individuals over the course of my career.

And now that I've got a platform, I do want to either directly give them some kudos and their opportunities, like I've had the opportunities, or even indirectly, just so the general people understand

the hard work that the professionals that are tasked with working with some of these horrific crimes are, what they do and the good that they accomplish.

Well, I think you represent them very well.

I think your depth of knowledge shows so much on this show and on other shows that you're on, also, but particularly our show.

I learned something every time.

So I think the bottom line is you have a nice voice.

That's what everyone's trying to tell you, Paul Holes.

Well, Kate, I appreciate the kind words.

Well, listen, I have got a treat for you.

Not only do we have a case in this century.

All right.

So there you go.

It's got something modern.

It is.

It is.

And it's in 1961.

And

it is in Massachusetts, and there are lots of photos of blood, bloody photos.

So I think this is a big, it's like Christmas Day for you.

That's something I always would love to have in all of our episodes, just so I can kind of weigh in and, you know, maybe form some opinions.

If only I had DNA that I could hand you that we could run.

I think there is nothing more perfect for you to talk about today.

No, this sounds awesome.

I'm looking forward to it.

Okay, let's set the scene.

It is October 24th, which is actually pretty close to where we are right now.

We're mid-October, so October 24th.

And we're in Lincoln, Massachusetts, 1961.

Lincoln is a suburb of Boston.

And this all centers around a woman named Joan Risch.

And she is 30 years old.

She's a homemaker.

And she's got two kids.

And she's been married for five years to a man named Martin.

He is in New York on a business trip.

This is one big mystery, like more of a mystery, I feel like, than we've ever tackled and a lot of conflicting information.

So, this is the beginning of a two-parter for us.

And I think it's important to establish that there's going to be a ton to unpack.

All the attention is going to be centered on Joan here pretty soon.

And let's just talk about the homemaker aspect of this, because when you're thinking about somebody who is a potential victim of a crime, and she may or may not be,

then we think of the person who's at home, male or female, whoever, who's at home, they're still exposed to a lot of people, right?

I mean, they're out, they're getting groceries, they know their kids' parents.

You know, when I think of somebody who's out in the business world and I think, oh my gosh, of course they're a target for various reasons, but the person who stays at home could also be a target because they still have to encounter quite a lot of people, right?

Yeah, you know, and you think about somebody who is a homemaker, and especially in 1961, it was predominantly females, you know, and then now we've seen, of course, a cultural shift where more men are staying at home.

And then post-pandemic, now we can see a lot of people who are working from home in the online space.

But I think what stands out about this era and this homemaker category, victimology, if you will, is that they will have fairly set life patterns.

patterns, especially, you know, if you're talking about Joan, who's got two kids.

Did you say the age of the kids?

Four and two.

So a four-year-old girl and a two-year-old son.

And they just had them pretty quickly after they got married, apparently.

Yeah, so we don't know if these kids are going into like preschool or daycare, probably not at those ages.

But Joan's still going to have a life pattern that is going to be centered around, you know, taking care of the kids, taking care of the meals, you know, as you mentioned, going out grocery shopping.

Does she have

somebody who can watch the kids during the day or is everything on her?

It sounds like everything's on her.

There's a neighbor who comes into play here pretty soon where it sounds like they kind of watch each other's kids.

I don't know if it's anything formal, but she has a couple of unexpected things.

happening.

I don't know.

You can tell me what you think about the pattern of the day that this starts to happen and then you can let me know what you think.

But you're just basically saying that people who stay at home oftentimes create a pattern.

Create a pattern in which, you know, of course, I'll have to see how this case develops, but you know, the pattern in which somebody who is able to, you know, remotely observe Joan's pattern, let's say a neighbor, can start to predict when Joan would be vulnerable, or somebody who has focused in on Joan as a potential victim, a stranger from outside the neighborhood, but is able to post up, whether it be in a vehicle, whether it be in the, you know, the recesses of the backyard, like a Joseph D'Angelo, and start to see Joan's life pattern and try to determine

when to attack.

And I'm assuming Joan is the victim in this case.

I mean, this case is so, so mysterious.

I'm going to go with yes, but I'm not 100% sure.

Okay.

I know.

I told you.

This is one of the wackier ones.

So let's just go with yes.

Yes, she must be a victim.

Yes.

And the other thing about the homemaker victimology during this era is that somebody is going to be able to predict that a female is home and a male is in the office.

And so there again, you don't have the male threat to an offender who wants to go into the house potentially.

Okay.

Well, so the social norms of the time play into this too.

Okay, that's interesting.

This October, we're doing something very different.

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And it's all wrapped in the full Virgin Voyages experience.

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It's not just a cruise.

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So, let's talk about Joan's day.

So as I said before, this is a week before Halloween, and she's got these two little kids.

She has a four-year-old daughter named Lillian,

and she has a two-year-old son named David.

And remember, her husband's name is Martin.

He's in New York, verified, on a business trip.

So Joan goes to the dentist where she and the four-year-old Lillian both have appointments at 9.30 that morning.

And the son, the two-year-old David, is dropped off at Joan's neighbor's house, who is a woman named Barbara Barbara Barker.

And Barbara will become important in a little while.

So the two-year-old is with the neighbor, and Joan takes Lillian to the dentist.

After they get to the appointments, everything's fine.

After they go to the appointments, Joan and Lillian go shopping and they run a few errands.

So kind of unpredictable at this point.

She picks up David across the street and the family goes back to the house.

house around 11 a.m.

This is the most, I will say, Paul, the most boring setup for a potential murder that we have ever had.

I mean, you just don't get any more boring than this.

It is just a day where they're just kind of living life, and that's the scariest, you know, thing of something that happens that's unexpected.

She picks up David at the neighbors.

The family goes back to the house around 11.

Joan makes the kids some lunch, and around noon, David needs a nap.

So she puts David down.

He naps usually from noon until 2 p.m., which is great.

I don't think my kids ever nap that long.

So at 1.20, the neighbor, Barbara Barker, her son Douglas comes across the street and wants to play with Lillian in Joan's yard.

And the kids often did this.

So he comes across the street.

I assume they're about the same age.

And I think Barbara's watching them cross the street.

We don't know what Joan's doing at this time, the mom.

Between one and two on this day, we don't know.

But at 1.55, David is still napping and she leaves him in his crib and she takes Lillian and Douglas, the little boy by the hand and goes back over to the swing set, to the neighbor's swing set.

She says, she doesn't tell Barbara that the kids are now back in Barbara's own yard.

And I don't know why.

She tells her daughter and Douglas, I'll be right back for you guys.

I'm just going to go back into the house.

And that is the last time anyone saw joan alive okay so joan takes barbara's kid and lillian over to barbara's house at the swing set

leaves them in the yard and then tells those kids she's going to go back to check on david right yes she says well she said i'm going to go back i'll be right back i'm just going to go check in and then that was it And I'll tell you the setup of the discovery of what we find.

Okay.

That indicates this was likely a murder, but that is the only setup we have.

I have a lot of early life of Joan that could give us some hints, or I have the scenes.

So you tell me which one you want to hear first, but that is all we know about what she did beforehand.

Husband's clueless.

And the neighbor said, well, I never saw her bring Douglas back over with Lillian, but the kids said, yeah, that's what she did.

And it wouldn't have been unusual at all.

Yeah, I want to start with the scene.

Okay.

You know me.

Yeah, I know you.

Okay.

So let's get to it.

We have some pretty serious blood.

And I'll tell you, don't bring up your photo yet.

I sent you some photos, but you're going to need to look at them.

There's quite a few photos of what we presume is Joan's blood.

Here's when things go wrong.

At 1.55, Joan dropped off her daughter, Lillian, and the neighbor's kid, Douglas, presumably because she was going to put them in the yard, the neighbor's yard, and come back across the street, check on David, who I guess like clockwork woke up at two.

And then nobody sees her again.

time goes by and Barbara Barker is alarmed because it's 3.45 now.

So, you know, almost two hours after she had dropped off these two kids in her yard.

And she's kind of going, where's my friend?

And Lillian would like to go home.

So she finally walks Lillian back to the house.

And as I said, you know, this is a two-hour time difference.

Once she gets inside, Lillian can't find her mom.

She's running all over the house.

Instead, she finds a bloody scene in the kitchen.

And a common quote is that, you know, the kitchen looks like it was covered in red paint.

There is an author who really covered this extensively in a book called A Kitchen Painted in Blood.

His name is Stephen Ahern, and it's an excellent resource.

This is what I know Marin really looked at for this episode.

They said it is just covered in red paint.

And you'll see what I mean when I show you some of these these photos.

So, a question I had initially: Barbara, I think, just left her at the door.

The neighbor just let, you know, let her inside and then shut the door.

And Barbara didn't go inside.

And I don't know why she would have anyway.

She just said, Go find your mom.

I'll see you guys later.

She shuts the door.

She goes back over.

So Barbara does not see this scene.

It is this four-year-old wandering around the house alone until she gets to the kitchen and sees this bloody scene.

Lillian goes upstairs at first to look for the mom, and David is crying in his crib.

We don't know if he has been in his crib since he first went down for a nap or if at some point Joan at 2 o'clock when he woke up got him and then put him back.

We don't know what happened, but he's very wet.

He has an overfilled diaper.

He obviously hasn't been tended to for a while.

So Lillian doesn't know as a four-year-old, of course, doesn't know what to do.

She waits with David for a few minutes.

She's completely freaked out.

And eventually she runs across the street and finds Barbara and says, says, I need to find my mom.

Do you have anything to say before I tell you kind of the actions that happen after that?

Well, you know, what a horrific thing for Lillian to have to be exposed to.

I'm sure that that is something that stayed with Lillian for her entire life.

You know, part of the assessment of the scene without knowing anything about it outside of, you know, what sounds like an extensive amount of bloodshed within the kitchen

is there's a four-year-old girl that is wandering through this house.

So there has to be an accounting for her actions inside that house.

Did she go into the kitchen?

Did she step into any of the blood?

Did she touch any of the blood?

And then, as she's moving through the house, is there a possibility that Lillian has sort of contaminated this scene?

And this is something that is unavoidable, you know, obviously.

But as a crime scene investigator, as an investigator, as a blood pattern person, I have to take into account those types of actions that could have caused some issues within the scene after the offender has left.

So the offender commits a crime and then leaves the crime scene.

Now you have the crime scene in a static space that would be accurate to what the offender did during the commission of the crime.

But then we have people who discover the body.

We have first responders coming in.

There's changes to the crime scene.

And that's something that I'm now immediately keying in on because Lillian, as a four-year-old girl, is not necessarily just going to stop because she sees blood in the kitchen.

And I had actually wondered: is it worth at that age talking to Lillian and finding out exactly what she might have done?

So, sweetie, do you think, did you move this?

Did you move, you know, because there's some things that are out of place that are really alarming for investigators.

Or do you think at that age, she's not even going to be aware of half of what she did if she's panicking, running around trying to find her mother?

Yeah, this is where relying on your child interview experts.

You know, in this day and age, we recognize that we need to approach kids this age in a different way than how investigators approached kids as witnesses back in the 1960s.

But yes, you know, she at that age, I can imagine that she would be able to provide at least some accurate information as to her behaviors.

Maybe not everything, but the interview needs to be done in a proper way.

Well, when you hear some of the details of this scene, you can tell me whether you think this could be a Lillian interference thing or a contamination first responders thing or what.

Okay.

This October, we're doing something very different.

We'll be recording Buried Bones live at sea.

That's right.

Kate and I will both be part of the first ever true crime podcast voyage, hosted by Virgin Voyages and iHeart Podcasts.

This is five nights of mystery, luxury, and Halloween fun, sailing to the Dominican Republic and Bimini Bahamas, adults only.

No kids, no stress.

Expect a live podcast recording of buried bones, crime-themed trivia, behind-the-scenes sessions with iHeart hosts, and yes, plenty of surprises.

And it's all wrapped in the full Virgin Voyages experience.

20-plus eateries, Michelin star chef-curated menus, luxe staterooms, Wi-Fi, and entertainment included.

It's not just a cruise.

It's a celebration of thoughtful true crime storytelling, and we want you to join us.

Book your cabin now at virginvoyages.com/slash true crime.

That's virginvoyages.com/slash true crime.

We'll see you on board.

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Loan subject to approval in available locations.

There's an interesting little timeline here.

So the last time anyone saw Joan was 1.55 p.m.

Then Lillian arrives at the house at 3.45, panics, goes to get Barbara.

I would have to imagine in less than 10 minutes.

So Barbara takes from 4.15 until 4.30-ish, as late as 4.30, to get another neighbor, a woman named Mary Jane Butler, to search with her in this house.

So they don't call the police immediately.

They decide, these two women, to go to the house, but they wait an awful long time.

I mean, it's about 45 minutes.

I'm sure they're petrified if Lillian is describing this red red paint scene in the kitchen, I'm sure they didn't really know what to do.

I still don't ever really quite understand when people just don't call the police, but maybe in the 60s, they were afraid it was something else and they were going to embarrass Joan.

I don't know.

Well, part of it, of course, is that, you know, 99.9% of the people have never experienced a violent crime, you know, when first exposed to something that you've never seen before, you've never walked into before.

There is going to be this processing.

What am I looking at here?

And not necessarily understanding.

I have a case where a wife found her son and husband bound and shot to death.

And of course, there were pools of blood around each of the victims' head.

She tells investigators, I thought they had spilled grapefruit juice or grape juice, and they were kneeling down to clean it up.

You know, that just really emphasized she, as being what I would call a naive

person

from,

exposure to violent crime, did not know what she was looking at.

I imagine when Lillian is, you got this four-year-old Lillian, this little girl coming over and describing red stains or blood.

I'm not even sure she would have recognized it as blood, but something is off inside the kitchen.

Barbara may be going, what is going on over there?

Is there somebody scary inside the house?

And is this why Barbara is now seeking out a companion, sort of a safety net to go into the house together to kind of see what Lillian is is is telling them.

And then now you have the two adults are now recognizing, oh, something really bad is going on versus relying upon what the four-year-old girl said.

So the amount of time it takes before they notify law enforcement, I think, is reasonably explainable based on my experiences in terms of, you know, victims or neighbors or something discovering the crime.

But it's something at least to note, you know, because now you have a temporal component that I have to take into consideration you know there's 155 you know you've got you know Barbara leaving and then now you're you're as far out as what 430 yep so you got two and a half hours you know so this this impacts you know how much time you know the offender may have been inside the house how much time the offender has had to leave the house right now you haven't even told me whether or not Joan's body is found inside the house right you know so the temporal component will be something that comes into play as I get a better understanding of the dynamics of what happened during this crime.

And now we're adding two more people to the mix to contaminate this scene because we have Barbara and Mary Jane going to the house.

They do not find Joan either.

There is the bloody kitchen.

And at 4.33, Barbara calls the police.

And I will tell you, Paul, right now, I mean, you know, I like to drag you around sometimes.

I like to lead you around and say, this person, were they murdered?

Were they not murdered?

She's gone.

No one has ever found her.

What we're left with is a huge amount of blood and some really weird scenes, some really weird mysteries, but she has vanished forever.

Okay.

So this is a nobody homicide.

Yep.

If it's a homicide, because there's a big if there with some of these people.

Well, and that's where, you know, when I get to take a look at the blood patterns, you know, maybe I'll be able to discern whether or not I would characterize this as a homicide.

And usually when we're dealing with nobody homicides, we've found a location, a death scene in which the amount of blood and the types of blood patterns are present.

We're fairly confident that the person did not survive.

This is where, okay, how did the offender get the body, in this case, Joan, away from this location?

And then

where did the offender place Joan?

But right now, nobody homicide, lots of blood in the kitchen.

Yes.

Well, my interpretation of lots of blood, they are saying half a pint of blood.

I don't know if that's a lot of blood.

It looks like a lot of blood to me, but everybody's definition is different.

Do you consider that if they're estimating correctly, half a pint of blood?

I, you know, I have to see.

Sometimes you get these, you know, somebody will take a look at a blood pool and, you know, say, oh, yeah, this is, this is so much of this blood.

But when you, when you have smears and spatter,

and there's just no way to put a volume on it, you know, the volume is typically when you have a blood pool.

And if you have a blood pool, that indicates that you had an individual with a bleeding injury at that location for a period of time.

So it all depends on how large that blood pool is as to whether or not that appears that that person had a fatal injury and they bled out at the location or, you know, they didn't have a fatal injury.

Well, let's get one motive out of the way.

And then I know you're anxious to get to the photos.

Joan's purse is there in the kitchen car keys are there money's there i know that doesn't always mean that robbery wasn't a motive but there is that those would have been easy things for somebody to grab so it says that the aside from a small table that seems to have been thrown from its usual place it's um usually under the kitchen telephone but it was in the hallway kind of on its side there isn't a suggestion of a struggle, except from the blood in the kitchen, everything in the house looks like it's in order and it looks like someone started to clean up the blood but then abruptly stopped oh okay yep and everything else so i'm trying to figure out when to just show you the photos and stop talking but there's some interpretation for the police to offer you that would go along with the photos.

So do you want to look at the photos and then I can kind of add stuff in as we go along?

Or what do you think?

Yeah, I think, you know, the first thing I need to know is, you know, when Barbara and the neighbor call the police, are they calling from inside Joan's house or do they go back across the street?

Is Barbara's phone something that they interact with?

The phone receiver and its cord have been pulled off the wall and then intentionally placed on the rim of a small trash can, which is full and had been set in the middle of the floor.

So normally the trash can is under the sink.

There are a couple of things that are off.

So it looks like the phone receiver in the cord had been pulled off the wall.

So no.

I immediately kind of keyed in on when you said that the small table had been kind of strewn aside and it normally was underneath where the phone was on the wall.

And so, you know, my immediate thought was, well, this almost sounds like Joan recognized a threat inside the house, went to the phone.

and that threat caught up to her at that moment.

And so now you have that initial interaction between Joan and the offender.

Now, the offender, I don't know if during a struggle,

you could easily see Joan holding on to the phone and during that struggle, it gets pulled out of the wall.

But you also may have an offender who is purposefully removing the phone to prevent.

the operator from being called.

1961 is in the days before 9-1-1.

So typically you'd be dialing zero in order to get the operator in order to get a hold of law enforcement.

You're generally not calling law enforcement directly during this era.

So what I have to see, you know, is, you know, what else is going on?

And is this potentially contamination as a result of Barbara or the neighbor?

I doubt Lillian would be interacting with the phone much, but this is where interviewing, you know, what, what all did you do when you're inside the house?

So I think that your theory must be right because in the hallway near the overturned table, there's an apron that has been flung onto the floor.

And there is a local telephone directory, which is open to the section containing numbers for emergency services.

So does that sound like she heard something?

She's opening, you're right, no 911.

She's opening up the telephone book, desperately trying to find who to call and is attacked in the middle of it.

Well, that's odd because, of course, you know, if you are seeing a threat and that threat sees you, I would expect this to be a very, very quick encounter where Joan would not have had the time to go to the telephone book.

So, you know, I'm starting to, again, this is all just speculation,

but I'm wondering, okay, does Joan hear something in the house

and now needs to take the phone directory out to call emergency services?

Or is there somebody in there after Joan is bleeding who's now second guessing what has happened and is now going, I need to get medical attention to this woman and then changes course for one reason or another.

So I don't know how to interpret it right now.

Okay.

Well, let's just get into it.

Let's look at the photos.

So pull up that document that I sent you.

So the first photo you see is Joan.

The second one is the house.

So those will be helpful.

So now I am, I am looking at the first crime scene photo, which is somewhat of an overview of a photo showing the kitchen floor with what appears to be white or light colored kitchen cabinetry, as well as possibly on the right-hand side, a stove.

It looks like the sink.

I can't see the countertop, so I'm having to just look at the cabinetry and see what the kitchen layout is.

But to the left of the photograph appears to be likely where the sink is.

To the right appears to be where the stove is.

And then I see the tiled kitchen floor, which is predominantly white square tiles with some, it's not a random, but a few of these roughly 12 inch by 12 inch tiles.

I'm going to call them sort of like your vinyl tile, you know, just sort of that.

kind of era.

They're not slate.

It's not, you know, anything fancy.

But you have the darker tiles.

On the left-hand side on the floor is a trash can that is very full.

And then I see up against the kitchen cabinetry a paper towel roll that looks like it's actually rolled.

So a fair amount of the paper towels are away from the roll, but it looks more like the paper towel roll rolled to this location.

And as it unspun, some of this length of paper towels are just laying there, which that is on top of.

Is that the phone book in the back?

Well, I'm now seeing the zoomed in image, and they're calling that a children's book.

And the author actually says it's drawing paper.

I thought it was paper towels too.

They say it's drawing paper and then right, a children's book.

Okay.

And these are items that normally sit underneath the small table that's now been tossed in the hallway.

So they were flung off, obviously, when the furniture was moved.

Right.

You know, so right now, I think there is sequencing information with that paper towel roll on top of this children's book or drawing paper.

And then towards the front of the photo on the floor, I see what appears to be some, you know, in my experience, these are relatively minor.

uh blood pools with some blood flows out of them you know this kitchen floor even though it's very smooth and to us very flat all of these floors have some unevenness and so the blood will when it pools you'll start to see some of these flows follow the the lower parts of the floor so that's fairly typical then i do see some smears in addition there appears to be a paper towel that's on top of a blood smear and i can scroll down you're going to let me scroll down or am i going to get my hand slapped no you're good okay

i have another view which is showing basically

I can see the stove, which was in the right part of the photo.

So like if I were to turn to my right about 90 degrees, this is a photo showing this other corner of the kitchen, which shows a door.

And it's just a single door.

It's not like it's a big double door.

Don't know if it's a bathroom or, you know, something else, but it's right there in that corner.

There appears to be maybe a hallway right next to the stove itself that leads back to another space in the house of some sort.

And I think the table that you are describing that used to be under the phone is seen tipped over in this hallway, but still somewhat in the kitchen.

Yep.

And then there's a child's.

It's like a high chair, right?

High chair.

Thank you.

That's just to the right of the photo in front of what appears to be a furnace along the wall.

The previously described blood smears and blood pools with the paper towel on top in the center of the kitchen floor is in the lower part of this photo.

And then back towards the rear of this photo near where that tipped over table is appears to be some more possible blood pooling as well as a significant contact transfer of blood approximately three feet high up on this rear wall that is a corner wall so i see two short walls coming to a corner and a blood smear on the left hand side or a contact transfer.

I'm pretty sure it's contact transfer.

And I see a blow-up of it in the lower photo.

So that is a contact transfer, as well as what appears to be a minor blood pool with some smearing in it, actually on the floor and then up onto the baseboard in the corner of this.

So right now, you know, typically I like to know what the victim's injuries are to interpret blood patterns.

That's usually a critical thing.

At this point, since I don't have that, all I can say is there appears to be, you know, a significant bleeding injury.

and this bleeding injury, possibly with Joan, assuming this is Joan's blood, and I think that's a reasonable assumption, you know, that Joan has been moved around after she started bleeding, whether she is voluntarily moving around, she's in combat with this offender, which is likely with some of the blood smearing, or she has been.

incapacitated and being moved around.

There are some what appear to be blood droplets on that corner wall.

They're larger and there's not a lot of them.

So probably can't interpret those, but that would tend to indicate, you know, that there's possibly those are a result of a blow to a pooled blood source.

I'm not seeing enough to be able to decide if it's, you know, consistent with cast off.

Like, let's say you have a bloody knife or a bloody hammer or something.

Right now, with the types of bleeding at the scene, I would at least say, you know, there was significant violence done to Joan, and I would lean towards this is likely homicide.

However, I do not believe that there is sufficient blood to say she definitely bled out at this location.

In my experience, this is not a lot of blood, relatively speaking.

I mean, it's a significant, you know, it's significant injuries, no question about it.

But in terms of being an extensively bloody scene, no.

Wow.

You know, this is very typical for a homicide scene inside a house in which you got, you have somebody that's being beat or somebody, you know, that's being stabbed.

It's just, it is routine.

Well, we have a print, a couple of prints, actually.

And so stay with that photograph document that I gave you.

So it seems like investigators think most of the action started with this telephone.

There are prints.

all over the place.

They all seem to belong to the family members, people who they know who were immediate family members, but there are three prints that do not match anybody in the family.

There's a partial palm print and a fingerprint, which are found on the wall where the telephone is mounted.

And there is a thumbprint on the phone receiver speaker, which I think is the thing that is in the trash can.

And you can see a pretty clear photograph of that.

Over the course of the investigation, the FBI got involved.

They compare these prints to 10,000 other prints and they have never found a match.

So what do you think about that?

And you now have a photo you can look at of this print, these prints that show up in the scene.

My first thought is: are these prints in Jones blood?

Because then now I have temporal indication that these prints were deposited after the bloodshed occurred, and it becomes much more significant.

I will tell you, you can go into any house.

And, you know, back then, this was almost exclusively latent print processing was done with black powder.

And black powder is good.

You know, it's not as sensitive as if you fume it the inside of a vehicle or a room or something with super glue and then do dye staining and some of the more advanced chemistries that we can do.

But it's still going to recover a fair amount of prints, latent prints.

And any house has prints that you can never identify.

You have so many people flowing into and out of a house.

And if it's in a location, if these prints are deposited in a location where they're never cleaned, they're never wiped, they can persist for a long, long

time.

So with that being said, now I want to take a look at a picture of the, you have a picture of a print and read, Paul, aloud, the description because it answers some of your questions of these prints.

And the first one is impressions in blood, not powdered.

Okay, now you're testing my

vision here.

Oh, no.

Get your contacts.

Let's see here.

Okay, so I am looking at page eight of this document.

So I am looking at

some images of the latent prints.

It appears that there's four latent prints that are in this on this page.

So the upper left print is impression in blood, not powdered, as originally on telephone.

Ridges white, furrows and background black, enlarged.

Finger not known.

Okay, so what they're telling me is that this is a bloody print.

I can take a look at this print and I can see the core of the print.

So it's sort of like your whirl, your loop, etc.

That's your core.

So it's going to be somewhat capturing the center of the top part of the finger, as well as I can see ridge details extending out from this core.

I can't see the delta where sometimes most of the time there's a delta near the core.

So it's kind of telling me that it's capturing the center and the upper part of this finger.

But when they say finger not known, that means they don't have surrounding prints to say, oh, this is the index finger or this is the ring finger.

And so when you start having to search a database of fingerprints, you can't just focus in on

one finger.

You now have to look at all the fingers, which Today with computerized systems, that's not that big of a deal.

But back in 1961, that just makes it that much more complicated to try to sort through.

Significant that they're saying it's in blood.

And of course, you have to eliminate lillian and they probably can just based off the size of the fingerprint but the other adults in the house first responders you know and even joan herself and they said they did all that and nobody matches this particular print yeah it does you know this is not the greatest copy but i would say with the amount of ridge detail that is captured in this print and how complete it is because i am able to pick out what are called points the various places of the ridge pattern that are used by fingerprint examiners to do the comparison.

And so I can see bifurcations.

I can see ending ridges, see a fair amount, even with this poor copy that I would say, yeah, this does look like if they find the right person, it could be identifiable.

So the upper right photograph is the same print, but what they've done is a reversal of the photo.

So now in essence, it's like looking at a negative.

And sometimes your eyes can see things better that way.

Does it help you?

Well,

in this copy, there's less detail being exposed yeah i mean i can still see make out the core you know it's uh it's just a loop as well as you know some of the ridge detail but it's it's a poor copy for whatever reason so right now you know the the the original image is better to my eye than the reversal okay now moving on to the photo at left which is described as prints on wall developed with black powder may right hand, but search should not be so limited.

The description, prints on wall, and it's developed with black powder.

You know, the location has become significant.

Is this a location within the house?

I'm assuming it's probably within the kitchen in which you have an offender that's been there.

Is this a location that the offender likely would have touched during the commission of this type of crime?

I have none of that information.

They've black powdered the wall and they got these two side-by-side prints that were developed, and they look like two sequential fingers on a hand.

But without more information, I can't determine which fingers of which hand these prints would be.

Right.

And the only thing they can say is that this is a partial palm print and a fingerprint on the wall where the telephone is mounted.

Well, this photo on the left is two fingerprints, and then the bottom photo is the partial palm.

And so that's this,

what they call photo below.

And they write palm impression on wall with position relative to prints and photo on left, possibly indicating right hand, but not certain.

Black powdered ridges.

So that's where with the palm, you know, you could, you know, the thiner region, you know, you can kind of figure out like this big thing on the thumb, you know, the ridges.

A competent fingerprint examiner would have no issues identifying this as a partial palm.

And it's a pretty good palm print, to be frank, but partial palm from the right hand.

I think their question is, is that since it's underneath where the two fingers are on this wall, are those two fingers part of this partial palm?

Could be, you know, but also could be just randomly placed by two different touches by possibly two different individuals.

So that's part of the complexity in terms of trying to assess the specifics of are these two different prints, the fingerprints and the palm, are they related or not?

However, to be frank, you have to go after this, this palm print and the other two prints.

But I'm most excited about the one on the finger in blood.

That tells me that was left after bleeding occurred.

So it gives a smaller pool of individuals that it could have come from.

The palm print and the other two fingers could be from the maintenance man that was working on the furnace in that kitchen three years ago.

So I actually had this in Golden State Killer where I had a phone that the, when he was known as Easter Rapist, had touched and resubmitted latent prints.

There's a latent print found on the bottom of this phone and we identified it.

And it turned out to be like this Hispanic male that was a phone serviceman from several years prior that had been inside the victim's house.

So that kind of thing does happen.

You have to spend the resources to go after this, this type of evidence, but it may not lead anywhere.

It could be a red herring.

There's no way now, like, what would they need now to run it against these prints against the national database?

Would we be able to do that?

I think Marin said there's a note that said that the author from 2020 who wrote this said he didn't think that that had happened.

We're not sure whether anybody's ever done that since this crime happened in 1961.

Well, with the FBI's current iteration, and I'm a little bit dated in terms of where they're at with the technology, but the FBI's iAPHIS system, you could easily input that bloody print and that palm print because they do allow for partial palms and that's a really good palm, and search the database of millions of prints in the FBI system.

I would say, yeah, it's possible you could have a hit and solve this case if those prints come back to, you know, somebody that you go, you investigate and go, yeah, this person killed Joan, took her away.

Well, let's talk about where, if this is Joan's blood, and we assume this is, where she must have been.

We've established that the kitchen phone seems like kind of the start of the action, or at least a lot of action.

They said that there is under the mounted phone that was mounted, there is a six-inch stain, which is square-shaped directly below the phone hook, which is two feet off the floor.

The stain is two feet off the floor and about 14 inches from the corner of the wall.

And then they said there's a heavy stain pulled on the floor in the kitchen corner below and diagonally to the right of the telephone.

Let's just assume this was, you know, she's beaten with something.

I mean, maybe that's not what happened, but is that sort of your best guess, knife versus beating?

Is there any way to even think about that?

No, you know, right now, with the photos I have, I can't discern whether or not she received any incisive injuries or any cast off of a knife versus receiving blows from a fist.

This, what they describe as that square stain, two inches or not two inches, two feet above the floor, 14 inches from the corner, that's the one that I describe.

That does look like a contact transfer.

Now, oftentimes that type of contact transfer is like somebody has a bleeding head injury and now the hair mass and head, you know, hit the wall at that location.

The photo isn't clear enough without me being able to zoom in or having a better photo.

We could often see the what we call hair wipe, you know, where you actually see this, you know, the bloody strands of hair or even hair being caught in the blood, where I could form a better opinion that, yeah, I think it's, it's, it's her head, and she had a bleeding head injury when her head hit that, that part.

It could be, you know, a blood stain off of her arm or, you know, a leg, pants, you know, whatever garment she had on.

And then sometimes you might be able to see some fabric impressions to give you an idea of where, how that blood transferred.

But I would, right now, my best guess is

she's likely been forced down into this corner.

And because you have, you know, a blood pool with a smearing in it on right on the floor, right in the corner that's up onto that baseboard.

So she's, I think she's laying in this corridor with the head in the corner.

There is blood spatter that is above that location.

The photos don't give me enough information as to the angularity of those blood drops.

They look like they're circular, but I would want to have better photos to form an opinion as to whether or not those blood drops could have been a result of, let's say, a blow while she's down on the ground and the blood spatter is kind of emanating up.

It's very sparse.

And so I don't want to overinterpret, but I think that kind of the general thing I can say is it appears that there is some violence, likely a blow or something and Joan is being forced down onto the floor in the corner of this kitchen.

And she's bleeding at this location.

Now you do have the larger blood area in the center of the kitchen.

I don't think I can sequence that as to what came first, but my sense is, because I'm trying to see if there's drag marks leading out of that corner, and there might be.

The likely scenario based on how I'm assessing this is, you know, Joan is bleeding in the corner of that kitchen near the, you know, where the telephone was.

And then she either moves moves herself or she's moved by an offender out into the center of the kitchen where you have her probably more stationary and now some bleeding occurring there.

And there's some significant smears, you know, and it's just could be like hands going through some of the blood pools,

you know, and then of course you have the paper towel that's on top of it.

And, you know, is that paper towel a result of an offender trying to clean up afterwards or just cleaning him or herself up?

Yeah.

And that remember, the author said that it was drawing paper, not paper towels.

But you could try to use drawing paper.

I mean, you would use anything you possibly could to clean up, right?

Okay.

So maybe I misunderstood.

So that roll is not paper towels.

That's actually the drawing paper.

He says it's drawing paper, the one that's like laying kind of on top of the children's book.

Yeah.

And that would, that would suggest, because it's, that's weird.

I can sequence it.

And it is like there's what appears to be a torn, torn off piece of that paper on top of where you have the larger blood pool and the blood smearing in the center.

That's likely, you know, somebody trying to use this paper, you know, using it to clean.

Yeah, I just, I, I made the wrong assumption that because it does look like my, at first glance, like a paper towel roll.

It does.

No, it's okay.

So we are in a chaotic scene.

And there are two pieces of information that you need to know that you are not going to be able to comment on until the next episode.

I'm on a roll here.

How's that?

I know.

Well, this is how we're going to see what a professional you are.

If you can pick this up seamlessly next week,

here's the two pieces of information.

One, there's blood upstairs in Joan and Martin's bedroom.

Two, there is a trail of blood going to Joan's car, which has not gone anywhere.

So now we've got blood in different directions also.

Okay.

And now I think you see why this has been a mystery.

And the next episode will be a little more forensics, but a lot of what happened to this woman and all of the possibilities.

Okay.

Well, here with bated breath, Kate.

I'll see you next week.

All right.

Sounds good.

Take care.

This has been an Exactly Right Production.

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com/slash buried bones sources.

Our senior producer is Alexis Emerosi.

Research by Marin McClashin, Allie Elkin, and Kate Winkler-Dawson.

Our mixing engineer is Ben Toliday.

Our theme song is by Tom Breifogel.

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

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