Case 295: Nadia Kajouji & Mark Drybrough

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Speaker 1 Please note that this episode discusses the subject of suicide and won't be suitable for all listeners. If you need support, please visit lifeline.org.au.

Speaker 1 For listeners outside of Australia, you can find a list of mental health resources on the Crisis Links page of our website.

Speaker 1 During the summer of 2006, English grandmother Celia Blay found herself spending more and more time on the internet.

Speaker 1 At almost 60 years of age, Celia was a retired teacher and a self-professed technophobe with minimal computer experience.

Speaker 1 But after both of her elderly parents died in quick succession, Celia found that being online was a good distraction from her grief.

Speaker 1 Although Celia kept horses and had a small business making whips for carriages, these hobbies weren't enough to fill up her days.

Speaker 1 Celia liked to browse newsgroups within the Usenet system.

Speaker 1 Newsgroups operated the same way as message forums, with separate groups dedicated to all kinds of subjects such as pop culture, music, travel, and many others.

Speaker 1 Celia mostly stuck to the history newsgroup and she had a particular interest in medieval history.

Speaker 1 As well as being an informative hobby, using the forums was a way to meet and chat with like-minded people.

Speaker 1 If a user was a member of multiple newsgroups, this information could be found on their profile.

Speaker 1 One day, Celia was looking at the profile of another regular poster when she noticed they belonged to a second group called alt.suicide.holiday, also known as Ash.

Speaker 1 The strange name caught Celia's attention.

Speaker 1 She had no idea there were forums for people who wanted to discuss killing themselves, and she was shocked. Out of pure curiosity, Celia hovered her mouse over the link, then clicked on it.

Speaker 1 Celia Blay had never contemplated suicide herself, but she knew how it felt to be depressed.

Speaker 1 The recent deaths of her parents had plunged Celia into an intense grieving period, leaving her battling some very painful feelings and low moods.

Speaker 1 As Celia began to explore the Ash Forum, she saw that many of the users were experiencing extreme sadness and suicidal thoughts.

Speaker 1 Some individuals weren't suicidal themselves, but offered psychological support to those who were.

Speaker 1 Others were trolls who seemed to enjoy mocking and goading the suicidal forum users.

Speaker 1 In addition to talking about their desire to end their lives, Posters debated the larger philosophical issues around life and death.

Speaker 1 Celia was a compassionate person and her heart went out to these people who were suffering.

Speaker 1 Identifying with some of the feelings users were describing, she also found some comfort in knowing she wasn't alone.

Speaker 1 While some of the conversations were too dark for Celia's liking, she was engaged by the deep discussions and thoughtful responses.

Speaker 1 Celia began to post on the board too and quickly made connections with other regulars.

Speaker 1 Some of the individuals were teenagers who had their whole lives ahead of them yet couldn't see the possibility of a bright future. As a former teacher, Celia particularly felt for these young people.

Speaker 1 She reached out to them and encouraged them to think positively, assuring them that life would get better.

Speaker 1 One of the posters Celia began to correspond with regularly was a 17-year-old girl from Central America called Anna, not her real name.

Speaker 1 Anna was a survivor of sexual abuse, had very low self-esteem, and was deeply depressed. She felt that suicide was the only way out.

Speaker 1 Celia messaged Anna often, trying to boost her confidence and telling her that depression was a treatable illness for which suicide was not the answer.

Speaker 1 Celia assured Anna that there were people who could help and encouraged her to speak to her doctor, friends or priest.

Speaker 1 Over the course of several weeks, Celia started to feel like she was making progress with Anna. The teenager seemed to be turning a corner.

Speaker 1 Then one day, Celia received an email from Anna that changed everything.

Speaker 1 I am going to kill myself at four o'clock on Friday, it read.

Speaker 1 I have made a pact with another girl.

Speaker 1 Anna explained to Celia that she had been talking with another member of Ash.

Speaker 1 Her name was Lee Dow and she was a 20-something Chinese-American woman who lived in the state of Minnesota.

Speaker 1 Lee Dow worked as a nurse in a hospital emergency room and had seen patients rushed in after botched suicide attempts. She told Anna that it was very difficult to kill yourself.

Speaker 1 Many people survived their attempts and had to then live with terrible injuries that sometimes left them incapacitated.

Speaker 1 Through her nursing work, Lee Dow had concluded that the only surefire way to die by suicide was to hang yourself.

Speaker 1 She provided Anna with explicit step-by-step instructions on doing so, even telling her what kind of supplies she would need to purchase beforehand.

Speaker 1 Like Anna, Lee Dow was deeply depressed and suicidal. She suggested that she and Anna end their lives together at the same time.

Speaker 1 Having someone to go through it would reduce the fear and Lee Dow could make sure Anna was following her directions properly.

Speaker 1 Although Celia was horrified by Anna's revelation, she thought Lee Dow's suggestion sounded absurd given that she and Anna lived in different countries.

Speaker 1 Celia replied to Anna immediately, saying,

Speaker 1 Surely this nurse is not going to travel to Central America to hang herself alongside you.

Speaker 1 Anna explained that they wouldn't be together in person.

Speaker 1 Lee Dow had suggested they go online at the same time and turn on their webcams.

Speaker 1 That way they could watch each other from their respective homes as they hanged themselves at the same time.

Speaker 1 Celia noticed that Anna sounded somewhat reluctant. It seemed that she wasn't certain about wanting to end her life, but she repeatedly said that she didn't want to let down Lee Dow.

Speaker 1 Celia set about trying to convince Anna to break her pact. Anna's life was far more important than a promise to a stranger online.

Speaker 1 To Celia's relief, she persuaded Anna not to harm herself.

Speaker 1 But that wasn't enough for Celia.

Speaker 1 She was furious that there was an adult out there who would convince a vulnerable teenager to take her own life and assist them in doing so instead of offering help or support.

Speaker 1 Celia began to wonder exactly what sort of person Lee Dow

Speaker 1 was.

Speaker 1 There weren't many posts from Lee Dow in the suicide group's main forum. Those she did leave indicated that she had a caring and compassionate personality.

Speaker 1 She was kind and affectionate with other board members, often referring to people she addressed as Hun and signing off messages with the word hugs.

Speaker 1 However, on one occasion, Lee Dow had gotten upset with someone who suggested that people who were suicidal should seek refuge in substance abuse instead of death.

Speaker 1 Another comment from Lee Dow indicated that she was a practicing Christian. Quote,

Speaker 1 The hope of eternal life is promised to those who believe.

Speaker 1 This perspective was somewhat rare within the group's community, with many users stating they were disillusioned with organized religion.

Speaker 1 It also seemed odd that a professed Christian would be in favour of suicide when the religion expressly forbids it.

Speaker 1 Outside of these occasional public posts, it seemed that Lee Dow primarily communicated with other users via direct message. In March of 2006, a user going by the handle half-jacket had posted,

Speaker 1 Please someone help me die die some way that is quick and or painless directly. I'll do anything.
Please, I just need help.

Speaker 1 Lee Dow had replied to this message, simply writing, check your email.

Speaker 1 Several months later, in July, a user calling himself a Jim said he planned to hang himself and was seeking advice on how to do so correctly.

Speaker 1 Lee Dow once again responded with the words, check your email.

Speaker 1 Celia Blay had a suspicion that something untoward was going on. Due to her lack of experience with the internet, she asked her son Paul to help her dig deeper into Lee Dow's forum posts.

Speaker 1 With Paul's assistance, Celia tracked down more and more messages that Lee Dow had left in the forum.

Speaker 1 It looked like she had struck up private conversations with dozens of other users.

Speaker 1 But what troubled Celia most was that sometimes after a user befriended Lee Dow, they then disappeared entirely.

Speaker 1 In early 2006, a 22-year-old researcher from Croatia named Nikola took to Ash to share some thoughts he'd had about taking his own life.

Speaker 1 Within two hours of sharing the post, Nikola had a reply from Lee Dow telling him to check his email.

Speaker 1 In a private message, Li Dao told Nicola that she knew exactly how he felt. For more than a decade, she'd been struggling with depression and bipolar disorder.

Speaker 1 Despite going to therapy, taking medication and seeking strength from her religious faith, her circumstances never seemed to improve.

Speaker 1 Li Dao told Nicola, I'm really tired of living a false life and pretending everything is okay when it is not, and I can't do it anymore.

Speaker 1 The two began conversing more frequently, and over the course of six months, they grew close.

Speaker 1 Nicola found comfort in knowing there was someone else who could relate to how he felt. Li Dao assured him that he wasn't alone.

Speaker 1 But she didn't have plans to stick around.

Speaker 1 Li Dao confided in Nicola that she was planning to take her own life by hanging.

Speaker 1 She told him that she'd been practicing it in private. If Nicola was serious about wanting to die, Li Dao encouraged him to hang himself too.

Speaker 1 She claimed it was the quickest and easiest method. Li Dao provided instructions and suggested they enter into a suicide pact together.

Speaker 1 Nicola agreed.

Speaker 1 A date was set, but Nicola found he couldn't go through with it. As well as being scared of the pain, he feared what awaited him after death.

Speaker 1 He admitted to Li Dao that he was worried there might be nothing afterwards, and the thought of that terrified him.

Speaker 1 Li Dao reassured Nicola that God was real and so was heaven, and encouraged him to convert to Christianity.

Speaker 1 Nicola and Li Dao set more dates for their suicide pact. but each time Nicola found himself unable to participate.

Speaker 1 Then in September 2006, other posters began wondering where Li Dow was after she suddenly stopped posting in the public forum.

Speaker 1 One person begged her to reach out if she was alive and well, while another deduced that she must have finally taken her life.

Speaker 1 Nicola reassured them that Li Dao was fine. He had heard from her just two days earlier.
He added that she was still alive because, quote,

Speaker 1 we kind of promised to each other to do it the same day. She is ready to die.
She is just waiting for me to be ready.

Speaker 1 Another user soon replied, writing,

Speaker 1 She told you that too.

Speaker 1 Oi.

Speaker 1 It seemed that Lee Dow had entered into suicide pacts with multiple people. These packs were scheduled for different days and different times.

Speaker 1 It was unclear why she had done this.

Speaker 1 The following day, Nicola received an email from a woman claiming to be Li Dow's mother.

Speaker 1 Using her daughter's account, she told Nicola that she had found Li's body hanging in their basement at 6.40 that morning.

Speaker 1 Although the family was devastated by her loss, they found comfort in knowing her pain was finally over.

Speaker 1 Nicola was bereft that Lee Dow was gone and and grew even more determined to take his own life.

Speaker 1 Two months later, he logged onto the Ash forum and read something shocking.

Speaker 1 One of the other posters had received a message from Lee Dow.

Speaker 1 She was still alive.

Speaker 1 Nicola realised he'd been lied to. He posted in the forum, quote,

Speaker 1 It's not Lee. She doesn't exist.
It's some Perv fucking with us.

Speaker 1 Other users agreed. Upon comparing notes, they discovered that Lee Dow had always recommended people kill themselves by hanging and always suggested they take their lives together via webcam.

Speaker 1 One individual who had regularly exchanged private messages with Lee Dow said she was always trying to convince him to hang himself.

Speaker 1 He'd wanted to talk with her over the phone, but she always had some excuse why that wasn't possible. This poster told the other forum members,

Speaker 1 I believe Lee Dow got some kind of high or rush from trying to convince people to die.

Speaker 1 Celia Blay agreed. Her private investigation into Lee Dow's messages coincided with the other forum members realising what was really going on.

Speaker 1 Word spread on Ash that Celia was looking into Lee Dow, and soon she received a tip-off that Lee was now using another handle, Falcon Girl.

Speaker 1 Celia conducted a search for messages posted under that username and immediately noted that Falcon Girl's style bore a striking similarity to Lee Dow's.

Speaker 1 When users posted publicly about their desire to end their life, Falcon Girl replied with the familiar instruction,

Speaker 1 check your email.

Speaker 1 Celia was determined to put a stop to this. She began reaching out to forum members who had been contacted by Lee Dow.

Speaker 1 Celia was disturbed by how young some of the members were. One was a schoolboy, while another was a 12-year-old girl.

Speaker 1 Celia asked Lee's friends if they would let her access their chat logs with the nurse.

Speaker 1 She wanted to alert the authorities as to what was going on and promised to to keep the identities of all the forum members private.

Speaker 1 30 people agreed to Celia's terms and sent her records of their conversations with Lee Dow.

Speaker 1 After collating this information, Celia left her quiet Berkshire village and headed for the nearest police station in Maidenhead.

Speaker 1 A quaint and leafy market town that sits on the River Thames, Maidenhead had a low crime rate and was ranked as one of England's safest places.

Speaker 1 When Celia entered the police station with her brief of evidence, she asked to see the officer in charge of online crimes.

Speaker 1 She ran him through the information she'd gathered, stating,

Speaker 1 Look, this person is trying to get people to kill themselves.

Speaker 1 But the officer didn't seem interested. He dismissed Lee Dow's messages as those of an online troll who was simply trying to wind people up.

Speaker 1 Celia could tell her concerns weren't going to be taken seriously.

Speaker 1 As she made her way out of the station, an officer remarked,

Speaker 1 If it bothers you, look the other way.

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Speaker 1 More than a year later, on the morning of Monday, March 10, 2008, students at Carlton University in the Canadian capital of Ottawa complained about louder music that had been blasting from a dorm room all night long.

Speaker 1 The dorm room in question belonged to 18-year-old Naja Khajuji, a first-year student majoring in public affairs and policy.

Speaker 1 Naja was known as a happy, outgoing and confident person with an independent streak and a passion for politics.

Speaker 1 When campus security arrived at Naja's Naja's dorm room, they found it was empty. Naja was gone, and so was her winter coat and cell phone.

Speaker 1 However, her iPod was still there, paused in the middle of playing a song, and so was her wallet.

Speaker 1 It contained her driver's license, credit cards, and more than $200 cash.

Speaker 1 There were no clues as to where Naja might be, but the fact that she'd left her wallet behind seemed to indicate she hadn't planned on staying away for long.

Speaker 1 Meanwhile, more than 300 miles away in Toronto, Naja's parents were desperately trying to reach her. They called Naja repeatedly, but she didn't answer her phone.

Speaker 1 Two days later, on Wednesday, March 12, they received a call from Carlton University's Security Department.

Speaker 1 They were checking to see whether Naja had gone home for a visit, as she hadn't been seen by anyone on campus for three days.

Speaker 1 Naja's parents were stunned that it had taken so long for the university to reach out to them.

Speaker 1 They hadn't seen Naja since the previous month and insisted that security and Ottawa police start looking for their daughter, certain that she'd fallen victim to foul play.

Speaker 1 Naja's father Muhammad and brother Mark made the long journey to Ottawa so they could search for Naja themselves. They also offered a $50,000 reward for her safe return.

Speaker 1 Meanwhile, police began their own investigation. The only clue they had to Naja's whereabouts lay in an email she'd sent to a friend on the evening of Sunday, March 9.

Speaker 1 In it, she mentioned that she was about to head out to go ice skating.

Speaker 1 Although it was almost spring, Ottawa was experiencing one of the harshest winters ever recorded. The city was still blanketed with fresh snowfall and the nearby Rideau River was frozen over.

Speaker 1 Ice skating was a popular pastime for Carlton University students and also a means of transportation.

Speaker 1 Investigators searched Naja's dorm room and sure enough, her ice skates were one of the few items missing.

Speaker 1 Stuck to one wall was a note Naja had written to herself, which read, Don't forget to love your life.

Speaker 1 They seized a number of Naja's personal belongings including her computer. As investigators scoured the computer for clues, they came across a number of videos Naja had made.

Speaker 1 In them, Naja sat in her dorm room in front of her webcam and spoke about her life.

Speaker 1 She hadn't published these videos anywhere online, instead opting to keep them as a private way of processing and talking through her feelings.

Speaker 1 Early videos seemed upbeat, with Naja modelling different outfits that she liked. But then they took a turn.

Speaker 1 When Naja started college, she had broken up with her high school boyfriend and soon met someone new. She fell head over heels for her new boyfriend, but her feelings weren't reciprocated.

Speaker 1 He had ended the relationship, leaving Naja devastated.

Speaker 1 Her suffering intensified when she discovered she was pregnant. Naja wasn't ready to become a mother and didn't know what to do.

Speaker 1 Then she suddenly miscarried.

Speaker 1 The experience left Naja feeling as though she had no control over her own body or destiny. As she described in one video diary entry, quote,

Speaker 1 I didn't want to get pregnant. I didn't choose to get pregnant.
The condom broke. I took the morning after pill and it failed.
So I was pregnant and had no choice in the matter.

Speaker 1 And then I miscarried, so I couldn't choose whether to keep the child or not keep the child. Go through with the pregnancy, not go through with it.

Speaker 1 Naja was heartbroken and deeply depressed. Her support network of family and friends lived hundreds of miles away.
When she visited over Christmas, her family noticed her low mood.

Speaker 1 When she returned to college, Naja found it impossible to focus on her studies or sleep at night.

Speaker 1 Naja made appointments to see a psychiatrist and was prescribed antidepressants. She began self-medicating with alcohol and spent more and more time holed up in her dorm room.

Speaker 1 Friends said she would lock the door and refuse to answer it when they knocked. When she did occasionally emerge, the expression in her eyes was vacant, as though she wasn't quite present.

Speaker 1 Naja's school grades plunged and it looked as though she would fail her second semester.

Speaker 1 Day-to-day functioning felt impossible for the 18-year-old.

Speaker 1 She took to wearing an eye mask in her video diaries, hiding her face while she spoke about her pain.

Speaker 1 In one recording, Naja detailed just how much she was struggling, stating,

Speaker 1 I am depressed. I have postpartum mood disorder, clinical depression and insomnia.

Speaker 1 Yes, I've thought about suicide. What a shocker.

Speaker 1 As police dug deeper into Naja's computer activity, they discovered that she'd visited the website alt.suicide.holiday and searched for information on how to kill herself.

Speaker 1 During her brief period on the website, Naja had befriended another poster in her 20s named Cami D.

Speaker 1 The two had started contacting each other privately.

Speaker 1 I wonder how it would feel to actually die, Naja mused in one message.

Speaker 1 Nice, Cami D replied.

Speaker 1 When Naja asked Cami to share her story, Cami explained,

Speaker 1 Well, I've had severe depression for 12 years. Meds, therapy, yoga, prayers.
Nothing has helped me get any any better. So about eight months or so ago, I started looking for methods to let go with.

Speaker 1 And since I've seen every method possible used, I know what does and doesn't work. So that's why I chose hanging.

Speaker 1 Kami D told Inaja she was a nurse employed in an emergency room. During the course of her work, she'd seen the terrible results of suicide attempts that hadn't worked.

Speaker 1 She wrote, quote,

Speaker 1 I'm not trying to scare you, don't get me wrong. I've seen tons of failed overdoses and bad wrist cuttings and some failed jumpers.
In seven years, I've never seen a failed hanging.

Speaker 1 That's why I chose it.

Speaker 1 She repeatedly told Naja that death by hanging was guaranteed, quick and pain-free.

Speaker 1 Naja said she planned to take her life on the coming Sunday. Kami asked her,

Speaker 1 you want to use hanging too?

Speaker 1 Naja responded that she planned to jump into the frozen Rideau River while wearing her ice skates.

Speaker 1 She'd noticed a break in the river's ice right beneath the bridge. The water below was rough and she suspected it would carry her under the ice, drowning her.

Speaker 1 If that didn't work, the below freezing temperatures would give her hypothermia.

Speaker 1 Naja wanted her death to look like an accident, as she felt that would lessen her family's suffering.

Speaker 1 Kami wasn't convinced. She told Naja she had seen terrible injuries in people who had tried to die by jumping.

Speaker 1 If you wanted to do hanging, we could have done it together online, so it would not have been so scary for you, she said.

Speaker 1 Then she provided detailed instructions.

Speaker 1 Naja and Kami spoke again a few days later on Sunday, March 9, the last day that Naja had been seen alive.

Speaker 1 Naja told Kami she planned to go out later that night to carry out her plan.

Speaker 1 Kami didn't try to convince Naja that her life was worth saving. Instead, she again tried to convince Naja to hang herself via webcam with her.

Speaker 1 Naja resisted Kami's urging and later that night she left her dorm room and disappeared into the cold Ottawa night.

Speaker 1 Police printed out the transcripts of Naja's online conversations for her parents to see.

Speaker 1 They were shocked.

Speaker 1 They had known Naja wasn't her usual cheerful self when they'd last seen her, but didn't realise how depressed she'd actually been.

Speaker 1 Naja had confided in her mother about her unplanned pregnancy and miscarriage.

Speaker 1 However, she had concealed her struggle with insomnia, her ongoing appointments with the psychiatrist, and that she'd started discussing suicide with other people online.

Speaker 1 Naja's parents realized that their initial suspicions about Naja falling victim to foul play had been wrong.

Speaker 1 For them, the knowledge that their daughter had seemingly taken her own life was more painful than believing she might be held somewhere against her will, as it eliminated all hope.

Speaker 1 Police realized that Naja Kajuji's body most likely lay somewhere in or near the Rideau River, but her three-foot blanket of snow had fallen over Ottawa, hampering the search efforts.

Speaker 1 In the weeks following Naja's disappearance, her parents learnt that while they had been in the dark about their daughter's depression, her university had not.

Speaker 1 Several months earlier, Naja had gone to a local restaurant carrying a razor blade. She told people in the restaurant that if somebody didn't help her, she was going to hurt herself.

Speaker 1 An ambulance was called and Naja was taken to hospital. On another occasion, one of Naja's roommates had contacted campus security to alert them of their belief that Naja was suicidal.

Speaker 1 Naja had told her psychiatrist that she was suicidal and had considered multiple ways that she might take her own life.

Speaker 1 Naja's parents parents were distraught. They didn't understand why they hadn't been informed about these events or why it had taken the university two days to call them after Naja disappeared.

Speaker 1 University officials responded that confidentiality laws prevented them from reaching out to a student's parents.

Speaker 1 The university's vice president for student support services released a statement that they had reviewed all the actions the institution had taken in response to Naja's situation and, quote,

Speaker 1 we really feel that we've done everything that we could.

Speaker 1 Six weeks after Nadja vanished, the snow around Ottawa started to thaw.

Speaker 1 On April 19, 2008, a boater on the Rideau River discovered her body snagged on a rock. She was fully dressed and wearing her ice skates.

Speaker 1 An autopsy confirmed that Naja had died died from either drowning or hypothermia.

Speaker 1 By this point, Ottawa police had already traced the messages sent by Naja's online friend, Cami D.

Speaker 1 By looking into the Internet Protocol, or IP address, from where the messages had been sent, They determined Cami D lived almost 2,000 kilometers away in Faribo, Minnesota.

Speaker 1 On March 26, 2008, more than three three weeks before Naja Kajuji's body was found, Ottawa police contacted a law enforcement in Faribo to request a welfare check.

Speaker 1 They explained that they had information indicating a local resident had made a suicide pact with a young woman in Ottawa who was missing and believed to be dead.

Speaker 1 But when Faribo police went to the address in question, they found that everybody there was alive and well.

Speaker 1 The day before investigators in Ottawa contacted police in Faribeau, a sergeant in the nearby city of St.

Speaker 1 Paul received information from a private citizen who had been conducting her own investigation from her home in Berkshire, England.

Speaker 1 For almost two years, Celia Blay had been hard at work looking into the Ash poster who called herself Lee Dow. and later Falcon Girl.

Speaker 1 Although Celia's first attempt to notify law law enforcement had been unsuccessful, she hadn't given up.

Speaker 1 Celia went out of her way to contact Ash Forum members who'd been messaged by Lee Dow.

Speaker 1 Celia informed them that Lee Dow was a serial predator who made false suicide pacts with vulnerable people due to some sick reason of her own.

Speaker 1 Celia also left posts in the public forum alerting users to Lee Dow's MO.

Speaker 1 Other forum members began reaching out to Celia to report their own encounters with Lee Dow, and she kept an ever-growing list of interactions.

Speaker 1 In late 2007, Celia's efforts caught the attention of a 35-year-old woman named Kat Lowe.

Speaker 1 Kat lived in the English city of Wolverhampton and was struggling. She was unemployed and clinically depressed.

Speaker 1 Her ex had primary custody of her two children, resulting in Kat only seeing them on school holidays. To numb her trauma and distress, Kat self-medicated with heroin.

Speaker 1 Lately, she'd found her living so difficult that she was considering ending her life.

Speaker 1 Like so many others, Kat turned to Ash to talk to others who could relate to her pain.

Speaker 1 One of the people she met there was Falcon Girl.

Speaker 1 It felt like every time Kat logged on, Falcon Girl would send her a private message, keen to chat.

Speaker 1 She kept trying to convince Kat that if she wanted to end her life, she should hang herself.

Speaker 1 When a teenage friend of Kat's from the forum entered into a suicide pact with Falcon Girl and nearly killed herself, Kat realized that Falcon Girl was a dangerous individual with no qualms about preying on children.

Speaker 1 She reached out to Celia Blay and offered to help her cause.

Speaker 1 Kat suggested that she go undercover and befriend Falcon Girl. She would try to coax information from her that might give some indication as to her true identity.

Speaker 1 Although Kat was scared that Falcon Girl might convince her to take her own life during the process, she was determined to help where she could.

Speaker 1 Celia accepted Kat's offer. and gifted her a gold crucifix necklace as a symbol of strength.
Kat promised that so long as she was wearing the necklace, she wouldn't attempt suicide.

Speaker 1 Kat sent Falcon Girl an email saying she wanted to take her own life and needed some advice. Falcon Girl responded.

Speaker 1 Although she claimed to be 31 instead of in her 20s like Lee Dow, There were many identical features to the Lee Dao messages.

Speaker 1 Rather than asking if Kat had sought help via therapy or medication, Falcon Girl wrote back with some tips about dying by hanging.

Speaker 1 She added that having a webcam would help, so she could guide Kat remotely when the time came.

Speaker 1 She signed off her message with the word hugs and her name, Cami D.

Speaker 1 A few days later, Cami emailed Kat again to check in.

Speaker 1 Kat replied that she was trying to find a mental healthcare professional to help her, adding,

Speaker 1 If they don't offer me the help I need, I can't see any other option than to end it.

Speaker 1 Cami D wrote back,

Speaker 1 I care and always will. I wish we could chat.

Speaker 1 Then she signed off with the word, hugs.

Speaker 1 The two started chatting more and more frequently. Cami repeatedly offered to watch Kat's suicide via webcam if she wanted her to.

Speaker 1 She also told her about her experience in an emergency room and how it had led her to her belief that hanging was the most dependable suicide method.

Speaker 1 Cami D confided in Kat that she had already helped at least four people to hang themselves.

Speaker 1 Kat asked if Cami had watched the suicides via webcam. and if she was worried about getting in trouble as a result.

Speaker 1 Cami said she'd only watched one and had done so because the individual hadn't wanted to be alone.

Speaker 1 He was a 32-year-old man from Birmingham, England.

Speaker 1 Cami wasn't concerned about the police chasing her up because she intended to die soon too.

Speaker 1 She assured Kat that she was finally ready to take her own life and would commit to any suicide pact they entered together.

Speaker 1 At Kat's request, Cami sent through a photo of herself with with what appeared to be her grey-haired husband and two teenage daughters.

Speaker 1 They posed together, smiling happily on a piano bench. The woman in the photo had short dark hair and was dressed conservatively in a cardigan and high-necked black top.

Speaker 1 Kat presumed that the woman was Cami, but found the photo rather odd.

Speaker 1 Cami had been telling everyone she was a young woman, but the couple pictured looked to be in their mid-40s at least.

Speaker 1 While Cami typically offered the people she chatted with reasons why she couldn't use her webcam, Kat finally coaxed Cami into switching hers on while they talked.

Speaker 1 Cami wouldn't sit within sight of the camera's lens, but agreed to keep it on nonetheless.

Speaker 1 One day, as Kat and Cami typed back and forth, Kat suddenly noticed something.

Speaker 1 A person had come into view of Cami's camera. Kat grabbed her cell phone and managed to quickly snap a photo of the individual before they exited from view.

Speaker 1 The person she'd photographed wasn't the woman from Cami's picture.

Speaker 1 It was the man.

Speaker 1 You're a bloke, Kat typed.

Speaker 1 But the man didn't log off.

Speaker 1 Instead, he asked Kat,

Speaker 1 does it matter?

Speaker 1 Kat replied, no.

Speaker 1 But she asked why he was pretending to be a young woman. Was this motivated by some sexual desire?

Speaker 1 The man said, no, it was a form of self-protection.

Speaker 1 He explained that if there were ever any legal ramifications for his helping suicidal people, then the authorities would be searching for a woman, not a man.

Speaker 1 Kat told Celia Blay about her latest discoveries.

Speaker 1 At around the same time, another member of the forum who was experienced in telecommunications helped Celia trace Lee Dow and Cammy D's emails to a server in the Minnesota city of Faribo.

Speaker 1 Celia finally felt like she was getting closer to making an identification.

Speaker 1 The final piece of the puzzle came when the man sent an email with a mistake in it. He had included his real name in the subject's header, William Melchett Dinkle

Speaker 1 After Melchett Dinkle told Cat Lowe that he'd watched a man in Birmingham suicide on his webcam, Celia drove to the West Midlands to report his claim to the authorities there.

Speaker 1 She provided them with a CD filled with all the case evidence she'd managed to gather so far.

Speaker 1 But Birmingham police treated Celia with the same dismissive attitude as the officers in Berkshire.

Speaker 1 One Birmingham policeman called Celia's husband at their home to check if he knew where his wife was and what she was doing.

Speaker 1 Celia also tried speaking to an English Member of Parliament, but got nowhere once again.

Speaker 1 In February of 2008, Celia sent an email to the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation, or FBI.

Speaker 1 She hoped that authorities in the country where William Melchett Dinkle resided might take more of an interest.

Speaker 1 But, unbeknownst to Celia, the email wasn't received.

Speaker 1 At her wit's end, Celia reached out to an online friend named Mary Jo, who also lived in the state of Minnesota.

Speaker 1 The pair had met through Celia's small business and bonded over their interest in horses.

Speaker 1 When Mary Jo heard what Celia had to say about William Melchett Dinkle, she offered to put her in touch with an old friend who worked at the Sheriff's Department.

Speaker 1 He in turn told Celia to contact Minnesota's Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, which had an entire department dedicated to pursuing adults who targeted children online.

Speaker 1 In late March 2008, Celia sat down to write another pleading email.

Speaker 1 The email was opened by Sergeant William Hayder of the St. Paul Police Department, who was on assignment with the Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force.

Speaker 1 Celia Blay had outlined that there was an online predator who was deliberately deceiving vulnerable people in order to manipulate them into suiciding.

Speaker 1 She named the predator as Minnesota resident William Melchett Dinkle and included details about his MO and six different aliases he was known to use.

Speaker 1 Although Sergeant Hayder was taken aback by the bizarre story, he was also intrigued.

Speaker 1 He took up the case and Celia continued to send him more evidence, including five different email addresses Melchit Dinkle used and chat logs of his conversations.

Speaker 1 Sergeant Hayder learnt that William Melchett Dinkle was a 46-year-old nurse who was married with two daughters.

Speaker 1 He hadn't worked in an emergency department like his alter egos, but was employed in a nursing home. In 1994, he gave one resident incorrect medication.

Speaker 1 In another incident, he failed to document a patient's deteriorating condition, and they later died while en route to a hospital.

Speaker 1 In 1995, Melchit Dinkle started working in the ortho-neuro unit at St. Paul Hospital, where his poor work performance continued.

Speaker 1 His inability to retain information became a problem, and he blamed his poor concentration on issues at home.

Speaker 1 Melchit Dinkle was subsequently diagnosed with a learning disability and attention deficit disorder. He was put on medication but still felt overwhelmed at work, leading him to resign.

Speaker 1 He found a job at another nursing home where he was found to have abused two residents and was ultimately fired.

Speaker 1 After this, the Minnesota Board of Nursing limited his license so he could only work under supervision.

Speaker 1 He continued to find work in nursing homes, but co-workers complained about his poor skills and rude attitude towards patients.

Speaker 1 By mid-2008, he was working at his fourth nursing home.

Speaker 1 On Wednesday, January 7, 2009, Sergeant Hayder and two colleagues traveled to William Melchit-Dinkle's home in Faribo, Minnesota.

Speaker 1 It was a white shingled house with black shutters and a perfectly manicured front lawn.

Speaker 1 Melchit-Dinkle invited the officers into his home.

Speaker 1 They introduced themselves and said they wished to speak to him regarding some internet-related issues.

Speaker 1 I think I know what you mean, replied Melchit-Dinkle. Dinkle.

Speaker 1 When the officers asked him to explain his remark, he said he had, quote,

Speaker 1 some concerns about some of the internet activity that has been going on here regarding issues with suicide and so forth.

Speaker 1 Melchit Dinkle explained that he and his wife both worked in healthcare and that in that capacity, they had conversations with people online about depression and suicide.

Speaker 1 Some of the conversations had gotten inappropriate.

Speaker 1 The officers asked if his wife should be included in the interview. Melchit Dinkle then changed tack, admitting that his wife had nothing to do with the online discussions.

Speaker 1 He, on the other hand, had been acting as a, quote, advisor in suicide methods, dispensing detailed advice about dying by hanging in particular.

Speaker 1 He admitted to going into particular forums and using various female aliases.

Speaker 1 According to Melchit Dinkle, he'd stopped doing this the previous month due to moral, ethical and legal reasons.

Speaker 1 The officers asked Melchit Dinkle if he could name anyone he'd had these conversations with.

Speaker 1 He said he'd spoken to some people in England. He couldn't be certain that they died, but he believed so, as he'd stopped hearing from them.

Speaker 1 He also admitted that he'd had a suicide suicide pact with a young woman from Ottawa who had jumped into a frozen river.

Speaker 1 Her name was Nadja Khajuji.

Speaker 1 Melchit Dinkle had learned of Nadia's suicide after the police in Ottawa traced his emails and had requested a welfare check at his home shortly after Naja disappeared.

Speaker 1 His family had all been away on vacation at the time. but Melchit Dinkle had subsequently confirmed with the police that they were all alive and well.

Speaker 1 A few weeks after Naja's body was found, investigators in Ottawa had called Mulchit Dinkle at home to follow up on the emails they'd traced.

Speaker 1 Mulchit Dinkle told them the home computer was used by his two teenage daughters and that they used the screen name Falcon Girl.

Speaker 1 The Falcons were the mascot of the local high school in Faribo.

Speaker 1 Mulchit Dinkle told Ottawa investigators that his daughters must have been the ones conversing with Naja Kajuji.

Speaker 1 They would have information about suicide due to their mother being a surgical nurse. He was very concerned about their behavior and said he would make sure the issue was addressed.

Speaker 1 Sergeant Hayder and his colleagues asked Melchit Dinkle to estimate how many people might have suicided as a result of his conversations with them.

Speaker 1 He said he'd talked about suicide with about 20 people and made suicide packs with about 10.

Speaker 1 Mulchat Dinkle later increased that figure to dozens.

Speaker 1 He guessed that of the people he made pacts with, about five had probably died.

Speaker 1 Mulchat Dinkle admitted that he knew it was illegal to assist in suicide. He'd seen comments posted in suicide forums that warned others to stay away from him, but he hadn't been scared off.

Speaker 1 He kept encouraging others to take their lives, telling them that it was okay to let go and they would be better off in heaven.

Speaker 1 As he put it, his caring nature went too far.

Speaker 1 William Melchit-Dinkle gave the officers permission to search his home and signed a waiver that would allow them to search his computer as well.

Speaker 1 After the interview concluded, Melchit-Dinkle Dinkle went to a local hospital and entered the emergency department.

Speaker 1 He explained to the nurses there that he was under investigation for assisting suicide.

Speaker 1 He admitted to having an addiction to internet suicide sites and was feeling guilty that he told others how to kill themselves. He explained that the appeal lay in, quote,

Speaker 1 The thrill of the chase.

Speaker 1 Meanwhile, investigators got to work examining the contents of Melchit Dinkle's computer.

Speaker 1 They found a photograph of Naja Kajuji and copious messages about suicide from Melchit Dinkle to people he'd met online.

Speaker 1 All of his correspondence consisted of pro-suicide encouragement and highly detailed information about how to hang oneself.

Speaker 1 Melchit Dinkle always assured people that hanging was a quick, sure-fire and painless way to die. But this is not true.

Speaker 1 Most likely, he had wanted them to use this particular method because it was the way he hoped to watch them die via a webcam.

Speaker 1 Police found no evidence that Melchit Dinkle had videos of suicides saved on his computer.

Speaker 1 Melchit Dinkle had told Kat Lowe that he'd seen one individual hang himself through his webcam, a 32-year-old Englishman from Birmingham.

Speaker 1 When police asked about this, he steadfastly denied it.

Speaker 1 But he ultimately admitted that there was another 32-year-old man from England who had died as a result of his actions.

Speaker 1 Case file will be back shortly. Thank you for supporting us by listening to this episode's sponsors.

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Speaker 1 It's that time of year again. The holidays are coming fast.
And if your kids are anything like mine, that list is already getting pretty long.

Speaker 1 And let's be honest, some of the things on that list make us stop and think, like a smartphone.

Speaker 1 What makes me nervous about kids having phones isn't the screen time, it's everything they can stumble across online.

Speaker 1 There's so much out there they're not ready for and once they see it, you can't take it back. It's scary how easily they can end up in those corners of the internet without even meaning to.

Speaker 1 I just want my child to feel connected and included without being exposed to all that too soon.

Speaker 1 That's why I was so relieved when I found Gab.

Speaker 1 Gab offers phones and watches made just for kids. No internet, no social media, and just the right features for their age.
Kids want phones to feel independent and connected.

Speaker 1 As parents, we want to know they're safe. With Gab, you can have both and protect them from the scary stuff.
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Speaker 1 At around 4pm on Wednesday, July 27, 2005, Carol Drybrough drove to her brother Mark's home in Coventry, England. The siblings had planned to meet at a nearby park that afternoon.

Speaker 1 When Mark failed to show up, Carol decided to check on him. She knocked on Mark's front door, then waited for an answer.
None came, so Carol let herself in.

Speaker 1 Taped to the inside door was a note written in block letters that read,

Speaker 1 Please call the police. Do not go upstairs.
Go home. Hand this note to the police.

Speaker 1 Ignoring the message, Carol raced upstairs. She tried to open Mark's bedroom door, but it was blocked.
After pushing forcefully, Carol was able to get in.

Speaker 1 Inside, she found Mark's body hanging.

Speaker 1 Carol tried to prop him up in an effort to save him while simultaneously calling for an ambulance. She held his weight up the entire time that she waited for paramedics to arrive.

Speaker 1 Tragically, it was too late and Mark Adribra had already passed.

Speaker 1 As a child and teenager, Mark had been mischievous with a great sense of humor. At university, he flourished while studying computer engineering and found happiness with a girlfriend.

Speaker 1 But then Mark contracted glandular fever which left him with chronic fatigue. From there, his life started to fall apart.

Speaker 1 His relationship ended and he lost motivation to attend classes, eventually dropping out.

Speaker 1 Over the next 10 years, Mark battled depression and extreme exhaustion. Although he was prescribed medication, he sometimes stopped taking it and suffered from psychotic fits.

Speaker 1 His mother Elaine provided financial support, but Mark had little independence, no social life, and low self-esteem.

Speaker 1 While his death was presumed to be suicide, police still attended the scene and took photographs for an official inquest.

Speaker 1 Although Mark's family were aware of his depression, they didn't know that he was suicidal. They were desperate to understand why he had done what he did.

Speaker 1 In the weeks leading up to his death, his mother Elaine had noticed that Mark had been spending more and more time on his computer.

Speaker 1 She and Mark's sister Carol began wondering if the answers to their grief might be found in Mark's online activity.

Speaker 1 Carol logged on to his computer and began trawling through his internet history. She discovered that earlier that month, on July 1, Mark had posted in a forum dedicated to discussions about suicide.

Speaker 1 Using the handle Spooky, he asked,

Speaker 1 Does anyone have details of hanging methods where there isn't access to anything high up to tie the rope to? I've read that people have taken their own lives in jail.

Speaker 1 Anybody know of inventive methods? The ones you don't get to read in the paper?

Speaker 1 A user going by the name Lee Dow had replied to Mark with the directive, Check your email.

Speaker 1 That same day, Lee Dow sent through a long email with the detailed and explicit instructions that answered Mark's question.

Speaker 1 It closed with the words,

Speaker 1 If you have any questions, please email me. I'll get back to you ASAP.

Speaker 1 Good luck.

Speaker 1 Almost three weeks later, Lee Dow sent Mark several more emails.

Speaker 1 They included words of encouragement, more information on hanging, and the repeated refrain that as a nurse, Lee Dow had seen many suicide attempts that didn't work and therefore recommended hanging every time.

Speaker 1 In one email, Lee Dow detailed how two weeks earlier, another man in England had asked her to witness his suicide via webcam so he wouldn't be alone when he died.

Speaker 1 Quote,

Speaker 1 In the end, I watched him go and it was very peaceful, and I was pretty pleased I could make this guy's last moments special for him.

Speaker 1 We are not alone, and I don't want you to think that either.

Speaker 1 Mark had replied to Lee sharing his personal story and explaining how his chronic fatigue was getting worse with time.

Speaker 1 He described how he had practiced taking his own life but hadn't been ready to do so yet.

Speaker 1 On July 23, Mark sent Lee an email that read in part,

Speaker 1 I keep holding on to the hope that things might change. If you want someone who's suicidal, I'm just not there yet.

Speaker 1 Four days later, Mark took his own life using the precise and specific method Lee Dow had sent him.

Speaker 1 A short time after he died, a final email landed in his inbox from Lee Dow.

Speaker 1 All it said was,

Speaker 1 Are you alright, Mark?

Speaker 1 Mark's mother, Elaine, was devastated by Carol's discoveries. To her, it was as though Lee Dow had decided to become a a self-appointed executioner for Elaine's beloved son.

Speaker 1 Every time Mark went online, Lee Dow seemed to be whispering in his ear and appealing to his lowest thoughts.

Speaker 1 Mark's family handed over this evidence to local law enforcement.

Speaker 1 While the contact from Lee Dow was included in a coronial inquest into Mark's death, The inquest ultimately found that the cause of death was suicide and didn't recommend criminal charges against anyone.

Speaker 1 A few weeks after Mark's death, Elaine Drybrough attempted to alert officials to her son's story, contacting authorities both at home in the UK and in the United States.

Speaker 1 She penned a letter in which she shared what she knew about the person who'd contacted Mark, that they went by the name Lee, had detailed medical knowledge about suicide, and supposedly lived in Minnesota.

Speaker 1 She was concerned that the individual might be getting some sort of pleasure from assisting and attending the death of other people.

Speaker 1 But Elaine's multiple attempts to raise the alarm went unanswered.

Speaker 1 When William Melchett Dinkle was interviewed by Minnesota investigators three and a half years later, He couldn't remember Mark Adribra's name.

Speaker 1 But after police provided him with Mark's email address, he recalled that it was connected to a 32-year-old Englishman who took his own life by hanging.

Speaker 1 Not long after Mark's death, Melchit Dinkle had come across an English newspaper article about the suicide that noted Mark had received assistance from someone in the United States who used the handle Lee Dow.

Speaker 1 This article had confirmed to Melchit Dinkle that he had been involved in another person's death.

Speaker 1 In Minnesota, counseling and encouraging people to take their own lives was against the law.

Speaker 1 But no one in the United States had ever been criminally charged with assisting suicide via the internet.

Speaker 1 This wasn't a case of somebody physically assisting suicides, but doing so through words on a screen.

Speaker 1 If investigators were intent on pursuing charges against Melcher Dinkle, it was going to be a hard case to prosecute.

Speaker 1 More than a year after members of the Minnesota Task Force interviewed William Melchit Dinkle, he was formally charged with two counts of advising, encouraging or assisting suicide.

Speaker 1 One charge was for Mark Drybrough and the other for Naja Kajuji.

Speaker 1 The case went before a judge-only trial in March 2011.

Speaker 1 Melchit Dinkle's defense attorney said that while his client's behavior was sick and abhorrent, it wasn't a crime.

Speaker 1 He argued that Melchit Dinkle's words alone could not be enough to incite Mark and Naja to suicide, and that both had their own mental health crises that were at the root of their deaths.

Speaker 1 The prosecution counted by pointing out that Melchit Dinkle had been intent on seeing his victims die. and that laws are in place to protect vulnerable people from such predatory behavior.

Speaker 1 Ultimately, the now 52-year-old Melchit Dinkle was convicted of both counts.

Speaker 1 Naja Khajuji's mother, Deborah Shivalia, said the conviction was, quote,

Speaker 1 a great relief. This verdict today substantiates my belief that the internet cannot be allowed to become a safe haven for criminals.

Speaker 1 Mark Adribra's mother, Elaine, agreed. saying that if Melchit Dinkle had been found not guilty, it would have sent the message that inciting people to suicide was fine.

Speaker 1 William Melchit-Dinkle subsequently appealed his conviction and had it reversed, with Minnesota's Supreme Court ruling that merely advising or encouraging suicide was protected under the United States First Amendment, which protects freedom of speech.

Speaker 1 In 2014, Melchit-Dinkle faced a retrial on the charge of assisting suicides alone.

Speaker 1 He was found guilty of assisting Mark Drybra, who had followed his suicide instructions to the letter.

Speaker 1 As Naja Khajuji hadn't taken her life the way Melchit Dinkle instructed, in her case, he was found guilty of attempting to assist.

Speaker 1 William Melchit Dinkle was sentenced to three years in prison, which would be suspended if he served just under six months. and abided by the terms of his probation for the following ten years.

Speaker 1 In February of 2015, Melchit Dinkle was released after serving his 178-day sentence.

Speaker 1 A number of myths persist about suicide.

Speaker 1 These include the belief that suicide can't be prevented, that people who talk about it are simply seeking attention, and that suicides are rarely impulsive.

Speaker 1 The truth is that many suicides occur as a result of impulsive decisions.

Speaker 1 People who die from suicide often tell at least one other person beforehand that they no longer wish to live, and suicide can be prevented by multiple interventions.

Speaker 1 In Mark Drybra's case, he was expressing a reluctance to take his own life in the days right before he died.

Speaker 1 Naja Kajuji recorded videos of herself talking about how she might regain her desire to live if she could sleep and find some happiness.

Speaker 1 Both she and Mark were experiencing depression in part due to external circumstances and traumatic personal events. With the right help and guidance, they could have gone on to lead happier lives.

Speaker 1 There are many factors that can place an individual at risk of suicide, including personal loss and trauma.

Speaker 1 and societal risk factors like unsafe media representations of suicide and stigma associated with mental illness.

Speaker 1 Community factors such as discrimination also play a role, leading to an increased number of suicides and attempts amongst members of the LGBTQI community and others who suffer discrimination.

Speaker 1 Experts say it is best to seek help through official channels that hire mental health professionals rather than online forums where just anyone can post.

Speaker 1 Organizations such as Lifeline offer support for individuals experiencing suicidal thoughts and emotional distress.

Speaker 1 They also provide resources, tools and techniques on a wide range of topics relating to mental health struggles and various life stresses.

Speaker 1 People who are worried about someone who has expressed suicidal ideation can also find advice and guidance through these organizations.

Speaker 1 Law enforcement officials and attorneys who prosecuted William Melchett have said that he sought to exploit the pain of individuals at their lowest point, rather than offer any help or words of support.

Speaker 1 Because there are often no investigations into suicides, it is impossible to know how many people took their own lives due to Melchit-Dinkle's actions.

Speaker 1 He told police he believed that there were five. By Celia Blaise's estimation, the number is easily more than a dozen and may be as high as in the hundreds.

Speaker 1 The earliest instance of Melchit-Dinkle's crimes that Celia Blay was able to find took place in 2002.

Speaker 1 Melchit-Dinkle had told a young student living in the UK which tablets to take for an overdose.

Speaker 1 She did so and landed in a week-long coma as a result, but went on to make a full recovery.

Speaker 1 In stark contrast to William Melchit-Dinkle, Celia Blay has likely saved countless lives by alerting others to the danger he posed and doggedly pursuing him until he was caught.

Speaker 1 Law enforcement officials and parents of Melchit Dinkle's known victims have expressed their gratitude at Celia's actions.

Speaker 1 Elaine Drybrough, the mother of Marco Drybrough, told reporters, quote,

Speaker 1 If it were not for Celia, he would still be at it. How many people have died?

Speaker 1 Naja Kajuji's brother has attempted to create some good out of the tragic loss of his sister by becoming a suicide prevention activist.

Speaker 1 He works with the suicide prevention organization Your Life Counts.

Speaker 1 Nothing is going to bring my sister back, he told reporters during one interview.

Speaker 1 But if I can help another family, I think that I've done all I can.

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Speaker 1 This episode is brought to you by Gab.

Speaker 1 It's that time of year again. The holidays are coming fast, and if your kids are anything like mine, that list is already getting pretty long.

Speaker 1 And let's be honest, some of the things on that list make us stop and think, like a smartphone.

Speaker 1 What makes me nervous about kids having phones isn't the screen time, it's everything they can stumble across online.

Speaker 1 There's so much out there they're not ready for and once they see it, you can't take it back. It's scary how easily they can end up in those corners of the internet without even meaning to.

Speaker 1 I just want my child to feel connected and included without being exposed to all that too soon.

Speaker 1 That's why I was so relieved when I found Gab.

Speaker 1 Gab offers phones and watches made just for kids. No internet, no social media, and just the right features for their age.
Kids want phones to feel independent and connected.

Speaker 1 As parents, we want to know they're safe. With Gab, you can have both and protect them from the scary stuff.
With the Gab's Tech in Steps approach, kids get the right tech at the right time.

Speaker 1 From watches with the GPS tracking for the youngest explorers, to the perfect first phone with no internet or social media, to the teen phone with parent-approved apps.

Speaker 1 So get ready for a Christmas morning they'll never forget, the one where they get their first phone. And really, it's a gift for you too, because these kids say phones will give you peace of mind.

Speaker 1 Visit gab.com/slash casefile and use code casefile for a special holiday offer. That's gabb.com/slash casefile.

Speaker 1 Gab, tech-in steps, Independence for Them, Peace of Mind for You.