Panic World: Who turned Gen Z fascist? (With Felix Biederman)

Would you like to hear my favorite right-wing crank?

Yeah.

I always have had a soft spot for Scott Adams, the Dilbert guy, because I interviewed him once several years ago and he tried to hypnotize me over the phone.

I love Scott Adams, and I feel like Scott Adams was,

you know, this is like a truism about lefties that people love in America: that being on the left is being right too early.

Sure.

I think that's true a lot of the time.

But Scott Adams is sort of the perfect mirror image for that, and that he was was insane in the wrong way, just a little bit too early.

Yeah.

He was just right place, just the wrong time.

A couple years later, and he would be, he would be in the cabinet.

Oh, yeah.

But he, yeah, he went like too hard too soon.

And I also feel like he couldn't shake the Dilbert baggage.

You know, like, it's hard to take him seriously because he invented Dilbert.

And he would try to like obscure it in these weird ways where he'd say, I have a, you know, $200 million business.

And it's like, yeah, that's technically true.

You do go.

Exactly.

Exactly.

It's like, yeah, I guess.

I mean, literally, you do it out.

So every four years, America suffers through an election.

And it seems like as a side effect, it produces a whole new, you know, squad of right-wing goons that try to become like the voice of the new right.

Right now, they're all kind of camped out on X the Everything app.

But here are some past examples, right?

We've got the earlier figures like Glenn Beck, Taco Carlson, who's obviously made a comeback now with his like, I don't know, podcast or whatever it is.

And you got like that next generation after that, where you have Miley Yiannopoulos, you have Mike Sternovich, you have Donald Trump's possible ex-girlfriend, Laura Loomer, who I believe at one point changed herself to the door of Twitter's office wearing a a diaper.

There's a lot of diapers in this world, I think.

And now you have these newer figures coming out who are sometimes extremely political or they're completely apolitical but sort of live in the soup of the far right.

But recently they've had success doing something liberal elites thought was impossible.

They swung the youth vote by over 30%.

So who turned Gen Z fascist?

And what do they want?

I mean, other than, I guess, like some sort of race war.

And most importantly, how long will this last?

This is Panic World, a show about how the internet warps our minds, our culture, and eventually reality.

Joining us is Felix Biederman of a little podcast called Chapo Trap House.

Welcome to the show, Felix.

Hey, thank you for having me.

So the inspiration for this episode was your recent show, Seeking a Friend for the End of the World.

And this is how you put it in the description, which I thought was really nice.

How did the Republican Party, once the dominant force in American culture for almost a generation, become a group of bowtide cosplayers and rapist streamers yelling about litter boxes?

So to give us a teaser for people who were going to go check out your show, what are some of your like main takeaways from working on this?

Like to try to answer your own question, what is the top line of how this did happen?

Both media trends and

the inevitable like devolution of both these political projects, both movement conservatism and American liberalism.

This is the logical endpoint, a very mercenary environment.

Where this became much more interesting and much more

contested, at least among our listeners, is in the aftermath of Trump winning.

We went through a lot of changes because I would say like 80% of this was written before Biden did the switch out.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, yeah.

It was more addition than subtraction, really.

And the biggest, the biggest criticism that I have gotten from my audience has has been that it's too

dismissive of the prospects of this movement after they have, you know, obviously won so big in such a way.

I'm like you.

I am equally dismissive of this movement.

Like for reasons we're going to get into this episode, but I do want to sort of set this up just a little bit before we go further.

And I want to run through kind of like a gamut of like who we're talking about.

Cause like for our audience, I want to make sure like they can kind of picture these people.

So like you started at the top of the show kind of going all the way back to like the the magazine cranks of the 60s, right?

But I do think, like, our current conversation starts in like the Rush Limbaugh and Coulter, Glenn Beck era.

We move into like the Milo, uh, Yiannopoulos, Diamond and Silk, James Yoki, Project Veritas, Gavin McGinnis, Mike Cernovich, and now we're sort of in this like weird,

like almost twilight era, where it feels to me, where there are so many of these people, but none of them are particularly big.

Do you have a couple of the, let's say, the first Trump era that stick out on your mind is like still being important now?

Well, actually, this is a guy that we didn't talk about in the series because I don't really feel like he's necessarily a part of movement conservatism.

Maybe the most interesting to me out of all the modern guys, and I think has the most longevity going forward

because he's not really a movement conservative, I think is Nick Fuentes.

I sort of see your argument here because he might not be the most influential or the most popular of these young fascists, but he's clearly leading the charge and sort of setting the agenda in a lot of ways.

And I think the most important thing about him, which we can talk more about in today's episode, is

his

real lack of fear with bucking against the conservative establishment and sort of redefining what it means to be far right in the 21st century.

And

know, his use of live streaming in particular, when I first saw it, I thought, okay, like this guy's just doing like an impression of like, he's like teen Alex Jones.

But no, he was tapping into something very real and creating not just like the political playbook, but I also think the digital content strategy for much of the new

post-Trump right wing.

The way that he is,

he becomes known to the world after Charlottesville, the posture he takes, is like very familiar and kind of like, I would say, like set the tone for a lot of guys going forward because he did, he uniquely, like, do you remember that first interview he did after Charlottesville?

Uh, vaguely, but for the audience, uh, describe it if you can, yeah.

Charlottesville was so significant to me because it was like

there was this constant fever pitch during both the election and the presidency of Trump up to that point.

And you could always get him to like promise or even try something very dramatic or daring, but he would always like walk back.

And the move always was,

oh, you thought that was going to happen.

You're a fucking idiot.

You're hysterical.

You're crazy for thinking that's happening.

And there were just, that was the constant like storm and drag of it all.

But Charlesville was the first time where he was really like,

you know, kind of like on his hands and knees, like, please let me keep having Twitter.

And it's obviously like January 6th was a way bigger example of that.

And he like really threw everyone under the bus.

And even that's been memory hold more now.

But it was, it was a significant turning point because it showed the futility in Trump one, like how, how limited all of this was and how disgusted most Americans were with like

far-right stuff when it was presented to them this way.

But that and everyone did kind of like do the same thing Trump did.

All the, all these people who were like there

Like even like Jason Gessler who organized it was like I'm sorry.

I'm not racist

It's so weird.

It's so weird.

Yeah, but then Fuentes doesn't do any of that and he is on he's on like he's he's on national news

and he's you know completely like unapologetic and like firm in this way that like none of the like Trump affiliated people were really being and while all the other people in the more like explicitly, you know, white nationalist movement were sort of like scatter brained and like turning on each other and like informing on one another, it really was like a marker of things to come.

Before January 6th, I remember him as like the kid on the live streams that would deny the Holocaust.

That was like his main role.

But after Charlottesville, he starts building like what he calls like the Greuper Army, the sort of Gen Z wing of like like this far-right movement.

And the moment that I sort of started treating him differently in my mind was when he crashed CPAC

basically right after January 6th, like that summer, and they all get thrown out.

And I remember thinking, like, oh, that's really interesting that he's effectively playing the same game as his contemporaries, but he's, as you said, he's not backing down.

And I think there was a moment where I was like, oh, I think the Groiper thing is going to get shut out.

Like, these are like weird Tradcath isolationist freaks, and I think Republicans won't ever embrace them.

But looking back on it, it was clearly the C-shift that has led us to where we are now.

Like, he called it right as far as the movement goes.

And all the people on the more like,

I guess like you could say like presentable or like normal side of that, people who still want to be like in electoral politics, they still feel like they have to like

impress him in a way.

Like, do you remember when like JD Vance was talking about how he got banned and was like on the no-fly list?

And he said,

I've gotten a lot of criticism from Fuentes, a lot of it unfairly, I think, which is so interesting to me.

You know, when you compare it to what, you know, Trump going, we're not racist.

We're against white nationalism all these times that he got yelled at.

I think the most telling thing about like a modern media figure is the way and manner in which they are able to weather storms.

Yeah.

And so many things that would have been like the end of people in previous eras, he's just completely withstood, partly because of changing media environments, but partly because he is sort of like a product of his time.

I think of him like Eli in Metal Gear Solid V.

I'm playing that game right now.

It rips.

I think you're right that he sort of shifted the way that these people deal with blowback to the point now where like, I don't think any of them really care what like the quote-unquote establishment cares about.

But I also think he opened the door to sort of a flattening of all of this stuff.

His big ideological goal, as dark and awful as it is to say, is mainstreaming Holocaust denial.

It is something now that you see every single time you open up X.

He has figured out a way to make previously unquestionable topics around race and religion

and gender totally fair game, even within the mainstream conservative movement.

The most interesting thing that everyone is sort of using his playbook now, and we're all kind of like living in his world, but he has definitively like split with Trump advance.

He did it a while ago, and he thought they would lose, but he's, even though they won and like won the popular vote, the first to do that since some would say 2004, some would say before that.

It depends on what you think happened in Ohio.

But

he's very committed to this idea that this is like a hollow Peter Thiel funded project.

And I think more than that,

he foresees the logical conclusion of austerity politics.

He thinks things may look great now, but just fucking wait.

You will not want to be holding this bag.

I kind of put him in the same category as Steve Bannon, where like he

has effectively seen the way things are going very clearly.

He's obviously evil, but like he is oftentimes the only one that is correctly like understanding the situation,

which obviously makes him even more evil.

So I'm really glad you brought him up because I do think he's shaping the culture, even if he's not

winning over new voters.

But I do want to switch gears slightly to look at the influencers who are actively succeeding into turning Gen Z into little Hitler youth and also making a lot of money and getting a lot of views because of it.

So let's start with a group that I think is the most influential, but probably the least ideological, which, you know, let's call it like the bro sphere, the manosphere.

And at the top of that are the Nelk Boys.

Do you know the Nelk Boys?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Their whole thing is really funny to me.

That Steve Will Dewitt guy is hilarious.

He used to be like, he was basically like a carnival sideshow Victorian freak for FaZe Banks.

Yes.

He would be to all these like banks and FaZe vlogs where Banks would be like, you know, drink this terrible fucking vodka I got from a grocery store.

Drink this handle in three seconds.

And he would do it.

He was just this sort of idiot farmhand he would torture.

Yeah.

And he didn't get, you know, Steve, Steve Will Dewitt did not get any more charismatic or interesting or better at any of this.

The standard just got lower.

So he gets to be FaZe Banks.

He gets to be the star.

Yeah.

FaZe Banks because of the lowering standard of what it takes to be, I guess, a financial magnate, a financial professional.

Now he gets to become that.

Everyone moves up.

They have not changed.

The world has changed around them.

And for people who are listening, who've not heard of these guys, this is how a friend of the show, Taylor Lorenz, described their whole channel back in 2021.

She wrote, that their channel produces new revenue is neither a fluke nor an accident.

Their videos revolve around frat-like parties and elaborate pranks.

That sometimes promote illegal activities.

They drink and curse and make crude jokes on camera, and the police show up a lot.

And their stunts include stealing a Segway and pretending to be a mall cop, changing restaurant menu QR codes.

They threw a huge COVID party.

That's a shitty prank.

Yeah, the QR codes don't work.

That's shitty half the time.

It's already so much of an indignity to scan a QR code at a restaurant, then to find that it doesn't work, brutal.

But the thing about them is that they are a brand the way Mr.

Beast beast is a brand just for like a slightly older horrible boy

and it seems like everything they do is

not a political project but ultimately a means for making a lot of money uh and they're oh my god the

they were estimated to be making around 70 million dollars through merch and hard seltzer sales

they're giant they're giant and like i'm not an expert on them i know that most butt steve will do it but there are two other ones ones, or three other ones.

I know the main guy is Kyle.

Kyle

Fourgeard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And yeah, he's like the, I guess, like the leader, but then there's Steiny,

who I think this is fascinating, like Aiden Ross, Jewish.

And I think it's like Aiden Ross is Jewish.

That's interesting.

That wasn't possible.

Like, you couldn't be a fucking Aiden Ross if you were Jewish in like

1925.

No, I didn't.

That's amazing.

That's amazing.

That's amazing.

That's like, I think, as significant an achievement as Obama becoming president, just like in the other direction.

You know, you know,

instead of being like a boxer or a hitman or later a lawyer or a doctor or a fucking, I don't know, a guy who makes a web series.

You could be Aiden Ross or a Nelk boy.

True.

That's amazing.

That's amazing.

You could do anything in America.

Interestingly enough, they started out like not liberal, but like at least they like one of their early videos in 2020, like they're making fun of Trump supporters.

But then two months later, they meet with Trump on Air Force One.

Do you know how they connected with Trump?

Have you heard how they did this?

What?

Was this a Baron thing?

It was Dana White, the president of UFC.

Oh, yeah.

I don't know how I didn't know that.

I know

Dana is a big fan of them, despite being in his 60s, I believe.

Yeah.

They went to UFC fights in Abu Dhabi with him during the pandemic.

Yeah, no, during the Fight Island era.

Yeah.

Then they launched a podcast in 2021.

Trump was like one of their earliest guests, which is incredible.

And then the video got pulled down because Trump spent most of it yelling about election interference.

Yeah, that was, yeah, back when you would still get pulled off the air for that.

Right.

They, like Logan Paul, like everyone, was like very

passively liberal.

Yes.

But like much more liberal than their equivalents in traditional media would have been 15 years prior.

And I think the Nilk Boys are a really important node in a lot of the media ecosystem that helped Trump win this time because through them,

you know, this is how Trump like connects with like Kill Tony and Mr.

Ballin and Jake Paul and sort of like this like new wave of shitty man podcasts that you know are pulling in you know millions of views and multi-millions of dollars.

And I'm curious like your thoughts on the rise of these spaces because like I remember in the 2010s like a lot of these shows did kind of exist but they weren't nearly as as you said kind of aligned with the right.

They were sort of by default liberal or at least like, you know, keeping up appearances of being mainstream acceptable.

Yeah, as they were as liberal as the background radiation of the rest of media was.

Exactly.

And then something happens where they just shift.

Yeah.

I mean,

I think it's a lot of things.

Early COVID did kind of like

greatly affect people in ways that we are still comprehending.

And I also think that all modern politics, which is all politics since the election of Joe Biden,

is a reaction and counterreaction to everything that happened in 2020, which is not just COVID and not just, you know, being alone with your own thoughts for too long, but specifically, it is a type of person who were as liberal as the background radiation dictated they should be.

And in 2020,

that obligated you to a lot more than previously.

Sure.

It

some would say it would even obligate you into saying things that seem utterly ridiculous in a very short time.

Like the example I always use is gushers going, gushers recognizes that black Americans are their experiences part, you know, like all this fucking goofy shit, you know?

Yeah.

Even though, even, even though, like, the origin point for all of this was, like,

a legitimate thing.

Sure.

No, I, I, I was there.

Like I remember legitimate grievances with legitimate popular support.

Wait, wait, hold on.

You don't think the Pap Splu Ribbon Twitter account should tell me to eat ass for dry January?

Yeah.

You don't think that I should celebrate dry January by eating ass?

It's this weird thing where they're saying these insane things, but in an incredibly like anodyne, passionless, bloodless way

that is so fucking alien to be like FaZe Banks, to be like a buffoon wrangler and a buffoon yourself and be like, slavery was fucked up.

I wanted to say that.

You know, like, I personally think the Rand Corporation should be doing land acknowledgements, Felix.

I actually think that that's good for capitalism and the world.

But like, there is a specific type of person that like went along with all of that.

Yes.

They have like a real like spite and bitterness towards that.

I think that was totally in the air.

And part of the reason why Nelk as a, oh, God, I hate saying Nelk.

Why Nelk as a brand and Nelk,

Nelk as political agents were so successful.

And I think they just represent like a big part of our politics now, which is just shameless opportunism.

Like these guys threw a huge party on the beach during COVID, not as a political statement, but because like it would get clicks.

And I think when you look at these guys buddying up with Trump, to them, it's probably just like good business.

And also like, you know, Trump's probably fun to hang out with, unfortunately.

And I think that's evident in how they've become more political.

Like not, they're still doing pranks, but they have also launched this podcast, Full Send.

And they have guests on there, like J.D.

Vance, Jordan Peterson, Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro, RFK Jr.

They're not like ruining their fun brand, but they've realized that like this is a totally different revenue stream that they can tap into.

And exposing their audience to like Trump's various goons and cronies,

I hate to say it, but like it

moves the Overton window.

Yeah.

And it triggers the YouTube algorithm to send more videos like that to people who are watching their stuff, you know, in front of creators that do have a real ideology.

And we're going to get into that right after our break.

Today's sponsor is,

I hope it's prime.

I hope it's feastables.

I want to wash down some feastables with some prime energy drink.

Okay.

Felix, are you familiar with the Dark Enlightenment?

Of course.

Of course.

I was on the

early to middle period Obama internet.

I was there when

they came up with the moniker Emoprog.

I was called that.

And so I was like, what is that?

What is it?

What is that?

What is that?

Emoprog meant someone who like supported Obama in 2008, but like took exception with his expansion of the drone war and sort of his

emotional hardcore and progressive metal.

Well, it's a very stupid moniker, but it was widely used around this time.

So I got to see the dawn of the Dark Enlightenment, or at least its public debut.

On the first podcast I was ever a part of, I did sort of, we did sort of like a gag interview with Justine Tunney where we like, do you, do you know that name?

I don't, no, no, I don't.

Justine Tunney

is,

I don't know if she still works at Google, but she at least at some time like worked for Google after being part of the Occupy movement and became

had this like, you know, in crankening

where she becomes like a, you know, crazy techno fucking monarchist.

All these proto-figures that sort of like

were showing up around the same time as Curtis Yarvin, but never reached his profile.

So that's who we're going to be talking about right now.

So, so just before we go further in, I want to kind of give a very broad strokes definition of what we're talking about here.

And you can tell me if I get this wrong, but basically, if for listeners, if you hear the term dark enlightenment or sometimes neoreactionarism, There are different strands of this stuff, but it largely is about the idea of a technologically optimized optimized city-state with some sort of like CEO monarch figure at the top, this kind of like futuristic version of monarchy.

And Steve Bannon is a proponent of this stuff, but I think the big name du jour, he's back is Curtis Yarvin, who yeah, he's a blogger crank from like, who's been doing this for about 30 years, and he's caught the ear of a lot of people, namely J.D.

Vance, I would say, in terms of in the administration.

I mean, like, the Dark Enlightenment, as we knew it 10 years ago or even five years ago, is kind of

it didn't go away, but people just either, they became fully invested in the Thiel program.

It's the sort of thing you'd think would never catch on widely or have cultural cachet, but billionaire money can go a long way.

Yeah, yeah.

He sort of like he stripped it for parts and made it more saleable.

So

what kind of parts would you say he stripped away?

Like, how, how would you say it differs, differs, you know, between then and now?

I don't think Peter Thiel in the next 10 years is going to try to establish an American royal family.

I think he sees that.

I don't think it's because he's too invested in the Constitution.

I just think he sees that sort of thing as like too weird and too much of a waste of time.

I also think it's absorbed a lot of very like quintessential American libertarianism.

Like the idea of like the Silicon Valley city-state, this sort of like snow crash like from the novel, the idea of like the Silicon Valley guys like Peter Thiel see the Dark Enlightenment as a path towards I am the CEO of this city-state that's networked with this other city-state, and we don't have a federal government.

Like, it's, it's, I think, it's become more American over time as it's become more popular here.

Yeah, what it ended up becoming, I would say, is like it's it's Peter Thiel looking at the type of individual city-state that a person like Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos is and going, No, I would rather be,

you know, I would rather be like a Medici, you know?

Right.

Yes, that's exactly it.

I don't want to be an NGO and a person.

I want to be an individual sovereign.

I think that would be the big sort of difference.

Is that I think the original, the original stuff from the Dark Enlightenment or neoreactionarism that I read was very much based on sort of centralizing power, whereas the newer stuff I'm reading is not that.

It's actually quite, it's almost the opposite in some instances.

It is interesting, though, like how

both irrelevant the original definition is, while at the same time, it's probably like way more articulated than Trumpism is as a concept.

Oh, sure.

I mean, Trumpism is not really an ideology, I would argue, but.

Yeah, and likely the next, at least the next presidential candidate that we can say with like 90% sureness, J.D.

Vance, is a member of this.

He's basically a member of this.

Yes, I would agree.

I also think the trickle-down sort of effects of Dark Enlightenment, the sort of like hipsterfication of it, it's not surprising to me that former Occupy Wall Street, like

Google employees would love this.

You know, like debate club dorks like J.D.

Vance would, would love it.

But that it could be hip to young people just feels so absurd to me.

Are you familiar with the Hegelian e-girl drama?

Oh, God.

I, you know what really

astounded me was I saw this stuff is going on in Chicago.

I couldn't believe that.

I grew up in Chicago.

I was so appalled.

You know, young people in Chicago aren't supposed to know about any of this.

They're supposed to

go to Goliath.

They're supposed to go to River North and drink shitty sky vodka cocktails.

They're supposed to be drinking cardamom lattes in the park at a farmer's market.

That's what they should be doing in Chicago.

You buy like a $300,000, 1,700 square foot condo in Wicker Park that's still somehow overpriced, despite being like one-tenth the price of its equivalent in New York.

You fill it with like

a sort of like pan-African art, even though you've never displayed an interest in that before.

No one in the Buffalo Wild Wings in Chicago should know about Hegel.

That's not how it's supposed to work.

It made me realize what, like,

you know, the guys in the movie The Battle of Algiers did.

That's how I felt.

So

I wanted to go back there and

snatch books out of people's hands.

Somehow this world is appealing to young people that want to be smart and edgy and,

you know, at least hold books, you know, walk around with them.

Yeah.

And so like, if, you know, if we're talking in the first section about like kind of like the far-right infiltration of bro culture, I think the other side of that coin is the far-right infiltration of hipster culture hold on let me just summarize this real quick because it's it's so goddamn stupid

yeah uh so the hegelian e-girl clique were three people anna nikki and sanjay and uh they believed in the in in a sort of one interpretation of the philosophy of hegel and they wanted to discuss his philosophy but rather than subject you to that um here you can listen to them provide their philosophical insights to our modern world on

of course, it's called the Horseshoe Podcast.

You guys like Clout unapologetically.

And everyone actually wants power, and this is why.

Kids are unconsciously fascist.

This is our

controversial take.

Ben wanted to talk about this in a video with like Gen Z being the most social Darwinist generation, where like all of the Gen Z slang revolves around like aura, Riz, folding.

It's all about like power.

Because everyone before was coping because a lot of people, because basically Gen Z is also the most like critical of liberalism.

Gen Z is more more actually conscious of like these power games and instead of repressing them, they actually just like bring them out and it makes it better.

And that's why actually we can talk about your cancellation.

Oh my God.

Racism non-racistly.

The millennials were the ones who actually got mad at that because you're not supposed to say that.

Yeah.

But then, but Gen Z people understand that because if you actually repress racism and you oppress the idea of racism, you actually become a cop and you actually become in a way more racist.

You invest more in racism.

You end up getting jouissants from being anti-racist.

That is ultimately kind of the same as the jouissance you get from being racist.

Right, right.

you got canceled because you said anti-racism is racism yeah or i said

yeah on some well okay i didn't say it quite like that it's so fucking long it's so long

so little they are people who are like grasping at like obscure and arcane philosophies and like using them to be mean to each other on the internet as part of like a larger kind of fascination with Yarvinistic kind of like politics.

This idea of like, we're going to use the internet to do this weird, fucked up, spooky politics thing and like be mean to each other on Twitter.

And that's sort of it.

It's like very cargo cult-ish.

It's like the Boxer Rebellion.

Like they find a pamphlet on the ground and they turn it into an entire religion.

No, I think that's exactly right.

I don't have the academic background to like interrogate Hegel or how correctly or incorrectly they're into any of his ideas.

I have no reason to doubt them.

But just it seems like they're just like aping previous trends and micro trends that they've seen before yeah they don't even know why they're doing any of this it is the most like joyless pantomime of like a shitty subculture that i've ever seen and it and it all blows up for them in july of last year when they try to like throw a hegelian e-girl party in new york they pass her onto flyer they get roasted on the internet the group splits up uh and then this is what one of the members sanjay said after the breakup uh she voiced a few objections in particular she felt like Anna's good standing largely stemmed from her incomprehensibility because people don't have a clue what this is actually about.

Possibly Anna doesn't either.

Sanjay self-identifies as a centrist, but was uncomfortable with how it seemed like the e-girls directed most of their ire against the left while remaining more or less silent about the right.

I mean, it's literally...

I think it is sort of a great microcosm of a lot of the sort of infighting in the kind kind of like post-dark enlightenment world where like it's all of these kind of hipsters who don't want to say what they're saying and fighting about it and stuff.

More than anything, it's a waste of youth.

That's the beautiful point, actually.

Like, like

I just doing this in your fucking mid-20s.

Why?

You have the rest of your life.

You have the rest of your life to be in a...

Your mid-20s are for you.

You should be like...

Break up a 10-year relationship.

Move somewhere where you you don't fucking know anyone.

I just joined a book club at 35.

Have since

fuck 50 people on a floor mattress.

I don't think, so this is, we are essentially talking about a book club.

That's what this is.

It's like a mean book club, which you in your 20s don't, you shouldn't be in book clubs.

You should, you should be in clubs.

That's what you should be.

You should be in nightclubs.

To call this a book club is kind of like an insult to the concept.

Yeah.

No one is reading the book.

It's just, it's, it's just all the gossip.

All right.

So to sum up, you have Nick Fuentes, who isn't winning over Gen Z directly, but like, I mean, thankfully, but he is sort of at the top of this ecosystem, shaping the way young people talk about politics, at least atmospherically.

And then in terms of like who is actually doing the work to redefine the way politics feels culturally to young people, on one side, you have bro culture being infiltrated by by like literal like members of the Trump administration through like podcasts, which is just an outrageous sentence.

And then on the other side, you have like, you know, what would have been like the cool, you know, countercultural hipster sphere that would be usually opposed to these ideas being infiltrated by like dark enlightenment dorks and like Peter Thiel money and like

turning into like not little Nazi book clubs.

There's like nowhere for young people to go, to identify themselves that isn't sort of attached to these ideas.

And making that even harder for a young person is that you have organizations like Talking Points USA.

Of course.

They're like not only infiltrating college campuses physically and like setting up little, you know, fucking Hitler youth chapters there, but then they're using those chapters to completely flood TikTok with right-wing and conservative content.

So

they've effectively snuck into any sphere of young people's lives in America over the last decade.

And this is Charlie Kirk's wet dream since he was 18.

His massive forehead and small teeth have been trying to reach young people.

And as of February 2025, according to the New York Times, his Hitler Youth Outreach Group, Talking Points USA, has been able to set up 850 chapters at colleges across the country, which is

truly one of the more pathetic things I've ever heard of.

Imagine being imagine like that's how you spent your early 20s.

My God.

Do you feel like this was maybe better for reaching young people than Hegelian e-girl drama?

Yeah, sure.

I think anything with demonstrable results.

Other than ruining a rave, I think.

Yeah, yeah.

Charlie Kirk, one of many secret Illinois

politics.

His face has, you could tell,

he's like.

Yeah.

One way or another, there's something wrong with our natural antidante or the ratio of our teeth to the size of our mouth or too much.

And

it's that and our anti-charisma, which Charlie Kirk has at Spades, a true man of Illinois.

His origin story, supposedly, like according to him, so take it with a grain of salt, is that he was going to get into West Point, but they gave his slot to like a black guy or something.

I think I've heard a version of this.

Yeah.

Very, very funny because it's like, well, it's not like it's hard to become an officer.

You could have just gone to like University of Illinois and like, you know, joint, done fucking anything.

You don't have to go to West Point.

Wait, remind me.

I want to make sure I get this correct because I sometimes get him confused with Steven Crowder, the former Arthur voice actor, but Charlie Kirk did put on the diaper, right?

He sat in the crib wearing a diaper.

That was not Charlie Kirk.

That was

someone working on a branch of Talking Boys USA.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was someone who worked at a branch.

Yeah, one of the diaper boys and one of the far-flung branches.

But what I think is really interesting and kind of ties to what you've been talking about today with regards to like the pandemic and changing these people's belief systems and sort of like giving them time to actually figure out how to shake off the what you call the background radiation of liberalism.

Charlie Kirk actually describes this exact process.

I'll read it to you.

He says, I did a lot of reading on postmodernism.

Sure, man.

I'm sure.

This was during the pandemic.

He said, and I started realizing that what was happening was a slow-motion cultural revolution fulfilling the hopes and ambitions of Angela Davis, Jacques Derrida, and Michelle Foucault.

This was their contention that in order to usher in something new, this culture must be incinerated.

That, I think, is a very objective reading of it.

What they were saying was actually the same thing a religious person would say, that everyone lives by some agreed upon code of conduct.

The question is what code I take that Caldwellian view from his book The Age of Entitlement that we went through a new founding in the 60s and that the Civil Rights Act has actually superseded the U.S.

Constitution as its reference point.

In fact, I bet if you polled Americans, most of them would have more reverence for the Civil Rights Act than the Constitution.

I could be wrong, but I think I'm right.

And then he goes on to say basically that like COVID convinced him that civilization is collapsing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, if you told me that that guy never was.

I'm just imagining his massive skull poking up from behind a book about postmodernism that he's reading.

I obviously think he's a clown, but I do think that his experience is very,

very typical for a lot of these guys, which is that they were more or less like internet slurries pre-COVID, and then they emerge post-COVID much more sharpened.

Charlie Kirk is like the typical type of like Ramora to the larger swamp creatures we're familiar with from the mcconnell bush ecosystem there have always been guys like this in movement conservatism who run some type of youth wing that acts more as a feeder org for future administrations than it does as you know an actually probably effective get out the vote operation for young voters yeah uh

but the experience with the background radiation of liberalism we just talked about and the

everything being a reaction and counterreaction to 2020,

when everyone went outside again,

when he emerged, he was no longer the swamp creature,

the sheepdog, the false tribune.

He was speaking for people who had,

he finally did have like the consent of the rules.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A significant amount of like young professionals, either in liberal centers or like urban centers within purple purple or light red states, who felt this immense abrasion after 2020,

he did begin to speak for them.

There's this thing that I continually kick myself about.

I regret it deeply in the 2010s.

And as a reporter interviewing a lot of these people, like this is when I'm like, you know, I'm regularly talking to like, I'm doing, you know, I'm covering like Milo rallies or like I did an interview with like Richard Spencer, who was super fucking boring and spent the whole time talking about Depeche Mode and like all these freaks, right?

And I'm like very dismissive about them.

And I was very dismissive about Charlie Kirk, the sort of right-wing invasion of both YouTube, but also college campuses.

And I just remember thinking like, that's so fucking lame.

Everyone knows how fucking lame this is.

It's not going to work.

And I feel like.

I think I was being very myopic.

I think I was like not really seeing the full picture of what these guys were doing and how intensely they would go about it.

They really invaded youth spaces and played the lung game in a way that I think was very easy to laugh at until it just wasn't anymore.

Yeah, I don't think you should kick yourself too hard because, um,

you know, for one,

it really did appear to most people that they were failing utterly

until they weren't.

Exactly.

Um, but I think I think you're missing another key element of this and another key element of this whole story.

If this, like, irritation to background radiation, it existed in 2021.

It existed in 2020.

It existed in 2022.

It existed in 2023.

Why is 2024 and 2025 so different?

It's because liberalism and the guardrails of the deep state

spent their last bits of energy on shitty, stupid Joe Biden and his crackhead fucking son.

And

hey, hold on, hold on.

This show, we think Hunter is America's boyfriend.

I love Hunter.

I started this whole fucking Hunter thing in 2017.

He's the best.

I was the first guy who talked about Hunter in 2017.

I want to smoke crack and listen to Fleet Foxes with Hunter Biden really badly.

No, no, I'm putting an end to this.

I started this whole fucking thing in 2017 because I read an article where a Chinese guy paid Hunter Biden with a diamond.

And I thought it was so funny.

And I thought his life, where he's having all these paternity suits, was so hilarious.

It's so so much like the show fucking

Ozarks.

And I thought, you know, and I said,

he's more qualified than Joe.

He should be president.

Yeah.

And everyone,

you know, I'm like the boss in Metal Gear Solid 3.

No one understood what I meant.

I've also, like Hunter, I also get deeply emotional in strip clubs.

So I feel like very akin to him.

But I, okay, wait.

To get back on track, I think you're right that it's hard to deny how little this sort of like status quo could accomplish, you know, with all the chips

pushed up.

Like they still couldn't do it.

And I feel like

this fucking narrative that like, you know, this explicit brand of like J.D.

Vance, Peter Thiel stretching out 19-year-olds on a casting couch and setting them on the worst course of austerity in America since Herbert fucking Hoover is super popular after it won by 1.5 fucking points in a national cost of living crisis that it's inevitable is so like flattering to Democrats and

to this fucking movement that also has no future.

The immediate future until something breaks, until we get to the next thing of American politics is who was holding the bag last.

I want to talk about the future, you know, about where we're headed with all this, but

we'll talk about it after the break.

We're going to talk about, you know, what is next for this horrible little world of right-wing influencers and what they're doing to young people's politics.

And I'm going to

drop my personal theory about what's about to happen.

And we're going to talk about that right after an ad from our sponsors,

which are probably going to be a mix of like meme coins and like ways you can buy gold.

I want to throw my thesis at you and I want you to tear it apart if you disagree.

I feel like the age of the right-wing influencer

is over in the sense that like there will never be one big one anymore, but there will be thousands of very small ones for every weird thing you believe.

Does that sort of clock with the research you've done?

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that.

I even think that we're kind of living in that world now.

Me too.

It's, yeah, it's the war economy.

It's a highly mercenary environment where no one man, one show,

even one media concern will control a majority in that world or even a sizable plurality that's much larger than the next.

I think comparing it to larger media is smart, where like, because the right is so aggressive about using the internet to organize and sort of uh operate they are the most at risk of being sort of like guided by its its forces so like yeah as the the internet has splintered so have they which i do think is a problem that like they will eventually have to reckon with and it goes back to who's the guy they're all trying to impress still we talked about him at the beginning they're all trying to impress nick fuentes just in the same way do you think so do you think so i don't think that they're literally trying to win the personal favor of Nick Fuentes, but I think that generally they do want to be seen as ideologically coherent and at least honest by his listeners, by that type of person.

Because of this specific mercenary environment where no one audience is big enough, they are ruled, similar to what dictated the background radiation liberalism that came before,

who has like the most cultural cash.

And right now, it's him.

I think he

made the right bet on the generational shift that he, I mean, he's young.

I mean, he's, I think, I don't think he's older than 26 or 27 at this point still.

Yeah.

He, and he, he clearly saw the way the wind was blowing for people his age.

And I, and I think,

you know, Charlie Kirk,

I don't want to say like you got to give him credit, but like he clearly smartly understood how large parts of America would start to interface with mainstream conservatism.

But Nick Fuentes truly did understand and was able to articulate first a very Gen Z reactionary politics that like no one else has even come close, I think, to sort of capturing the way he has.

Yeah, and he was, in a sense, sort of like the monster built by his millennial predecessor.

Yes.

Yes.

Their mirror image.

He is formed by the negative image of the millennial media that came before him.

He was formed in that crucible as someone who will never leave, will never be forced out.

Depending on how things shake out, I do think he's going to be one of these guys that either continues to accurately predict the future of the movement, but is like so intense and insane that every time the status quo reconfigures, they leave him out of it, but like everyone's still talking to him.

Or

he does find a way to like soften it without feeling like he's sold out and like takes a position as like head of Department of Education or something.

Yeah, maybe, maybe.

I don't know.

I almost feel, you remember how like the beginning of Biden was sort of the end for like

squishy, monetizable left liberal identity politics?

Or like amenable to like a Liz Warren style of politics, a program of politics.

Are you talking about like Instagram infographics?

Instagram infographics, the concept of

paying $300 to go to a live podcast taping with D-Ray,

like

shit like that, right?

Like that wasn't even that was the end of shit like that.

Biden was the end of shit like that.

Yes, I actually didn't really clock that, that like all that shit dies out the minute he wins.

And yeah,

yeah,

I feel like he won and a whole bunch of people who were secretly Canadian stopped talking about American politics on Twitter.

Yes.

Yes.

Like a whole bunch of like people wearing no prescription glasses who are secretly Canadian, like making like infographics like on Instagram, all that shit.

Exactly.

The conservative environment is different.

But I do wonder, you know,

will we see a similar thing?

Can I throw a question at you that is like tangentially related to this?

But it was something that my producer Grant and I were debating earlier today.

And it's one of these like sliding door moments that you're talking about where what if this happened versus that and i do wonder if this is a missing piece of this conversation we've been having which is the thing that i think about a lot is the banning of trump from mainstream social media forced him to change his behavior online in a way that inadvertently made him more prepared for the the future we were all heading towards and i think helped right-wing media see a path forward in the sense that like we exiled him from the city without to the woods without realizing the city was burning down behind us and we'd eventually be out in the woods too that's incredibly interesting i think

yeah i think i i kind of yeah i think you're right because what did he do right after january 6th oh my god i'm so fucking sorry all these people broke the law please let me have facebook please let me have twitter

It was like the most disgusted his supporters ever were with him.

Oh, yeah.

And then you, you make it so you banish him from like the liberal realm.

And yeah, like there are problems there where you like, you can be in a self-curated bubble.

But the space he was just banished from was also a self-curated bubble, which was just, which was being destroyed like literally at that moment.

Like it was all ending.

And no one really knew.

And now you look around and you look at the people we've talked about today, like you look at the manosphere that is just everywhere and everything.

Yeah.

You look at the sort of like weird arcane youth movements that are like fashion without being fashion and like the like normie college students that are like at like talking points USA mixers and you think about like all the random ass TikTok influencers that are just like feeding you like AI generated like Hitler quotes and it's just like

everything broke and we

back in the in the bubble were like he's defeated but we were now with him outside.

In 2019, you can make someone who is like on an HBO show apologize because like their uncle voted for Trump.

Yes.

Like that's how they did.

That's the wrong thing.

That's just wrong.

Yeah, that's how fucking city scene.

That's real.

That's real.

You're saying a real thing that happened.

Yes.

That's how strong articles were.

And then they banish him from Article Zone.

And suddenly no one gives a fuck about articles.

Even when the articles now are like, they're doing fucking austerity.

Traditionally, the most unpopular thing ever.

Planes are falling out of the sky.

Everything is so meaningless and borderless and degenerated.

Those are culturally the same articles as Cindy Sweeney's uncle fucking voted for Trump.

You know,

like a 19-year-old

camp counselor has your social security number, and Article Zone is so mad about it, and no one gives a fuck anymore because, like,

the whole, the whole thing changed, the whole, everything shifted.

Yeah.

And they didn't realize it was happening because,

I mean, in some ways, 2022 was like humiliating for Republicans and really bad for them.

It was also really bad for Democrats because they thought everyone fucking loves this.

Yeah.

Everyone loves this shit.

Everyone loves this fucking economy.

Everyone wants Ukraine to be at war forever.

Everyone loves the state of the world.

Everyone loves what Tony Blinken is doing, whether it is him setting the world aflame for Israel or his horrific jazz performances.

Yeah, 2022, it all falls apart.

It was falling apart up until that point, but

it is the threshold.

Now, this shit is everywhere and in everything.

The background radiation is no longer in the background and it's no longer liberal.

And I guess I want to end with like a very simple question, which is, you know, how can we fix all of this?

You know, like one or two sentences.

What do you think?

Like, how do we fix all of it?

God, since 2020, me and Matt Christman have agreed.

A few military officers with a few good ideas would change a whole lot.

Yeah, cool.

Yeah, no, I think that has gone well in most countries that has happened to.

I think you're right.

I think we just need a charismatic general.

It went well until a certain Secretary of State intervened in Libya.

I think we need a charismatic general and a bunch of helicopters over the ocean, right?

But I do think that like one of the last working, like one of the last institutions that people people have any faith and any genuine positive feelings towards that could actually survive interrogation

is the U.S.

military.

I think one way or the other, the military is going to feel like its hand is forced and they have to take over administration of politics, either directly or indirectly.

Maybe.

there's a good world where we get American amlo and American Shine Bomb.

And maybe there's a second best world where those military officers that take over in a few years, they read a little green book.

Just for reference, just for clarity for our listeners, you're referencing the current and the previous president in Mexico.

That's what you're.

Shine Bomb Omlo.

Yeah, I just for anyone listening to this that, you know, finds themselves leading the American junta in five to 10 years, if you want, you know, state-run media organs, happy to help.

Don't want to be imprisoned for that um so let me know you know who you know who emailed our show a fucking f-22 pilot really what do they say

they've been listening for a while maybe i what i'm saying is like maybe these guys are out there i'm saying maybe this isn't such a long shot hey you know uh anything to make it so i never have to hear about elon musk ever again that's that's really

if a junta is what that is required fine um felix i want to thank you for coming on the show.

This is

infinitely fascinating and super fun.

As fun as a conversation about various fascists and reactionaries can be.

I feel like this is such a silly question, but I ask it to all of our guests.

If people want to follow you on the internet, work and they do that.

Oh, yeah.

What's your truth social account?

Like, how active are you on X.com?

My Twitter is Buy Your Logic.

You can also listen to my podcast, Chopo Trap House.

Wait, you're Felix?

Yeah.

Oh, shit.

Okay.

Are you on Blue Sky?

Have you made the jump?

I do have a Blue Sky account, but I really just...

The first day I was there, I saw that there was a posting strike where no one stopped posting and we're just yelling at each other for breaking the posting strike.

And I was like, you know what?

I'd rather go down with the ship.

I feel like

everything in my life that I have now, I have because of Twitter.

And

yeah, no.

No matter how bad it gets, I'll sink with that fucking ship.

Every minute I spend on Blue Sky, I become more conservative.

I'm like, actually, I think Trump rocks, and I hate all of you fucking assholes so much.

It's

I'm not, no bullshit.

The first thing I saw was like,

how people are people, uh, there's an exemption for sex workers to break the posting strike on Blue Sky, and I could not figure out what the posting strike was about until weeks later.

And so it was like the perfect, like,

incomprehensible intra-left bullshit.

again i think i think it's like banning trump i think it's good fucking yeah keep those people quarantined yeah no i yeah i i had someone today message me in a reply and be like i don't understand what this means and i hate it

and i'm mad about it and i was like yeah that's it that's uh that's the discourse on blue sky no one understands what anyone's talking about and they're furious about it blue sky is like the world's greatest repository of people who like

At like age 45 are like, you know what?

I'm meant to be a game dev.

I don't know how to code i don't know any of these i don't know how to build a game i don't know what a level looks like but i have great ideas yeah i uh i'm really glad the uh the division of the cia that invented steven universe got another whack and created blue sky

uh thank you so much for coming on this

absolute pleasure

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