WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 1

Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Ashley.
Six years ago, when we did our very first Crime Junkie tour, we told a story about a young girl who was murdered. Well, within that story, the killer had Googled Dana Ireland autopsy photos.
That small piece of the larger story set me on a years-long spiral picking apart the murder of a young woman on Christmas

Eve. Three men were convicted of her murder, but it was clear that the real killer had never been identified.
But how that happened is a wild story. One that we're telling you in the new season of three hosted by Amanda Knox knox hear the full story in season two of three you can listen to three now wherever you get your podcasts this show is sponsored by better help therapy can be a source of support for any area of your life better help is fully online making therapy affordable and, serving over 5 million people worldwide.
Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. This month, BetterHelp is giving you the biggest discount on starting therapy that has ever been offered on this show.
90% off your first week. Your well-being is worth it, so don't miss it.
For a limited time, visit BetterHelp.com slash crimejunkie to get 90% off your first week. That's betterhelp.com slash crimejunkie.
Homes without security systems are up to 300% more likely to be targeted by burglars. SimpliSafe's Active Guard outdoor monitoring that enables live monitoring agents to verbally engage suspicious people, keeping your home off the target list.
SimpliSafe is easy enough for my whole family to use, while also being the comprehensive protection we want in a home security system. Visit simplisafe.com slash crimejunkie to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free.
That's simplisafe.com slash crimejunkie. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.
This episode is brought to you by Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra. The all-new S25 Ultra is integrated with incredible AI features.
It's a true AI companion capable of handling multiple tasks with just one ask. You can tell it to find a restaurant nearby and text it to your friends or search for recipes and add them to your notes.
Plus, Now Brief with Galaxy AI gives you personalized daily briefings like your appointments, the weather, and your energy score. It's basically the rundown I used to get from my assistant every morning.
And don't worry, AI will never put her out of a job. She is amazing.
But the Now Brief with Galaxy AI makes it easy to plan and organize everything from where we're going to lunch to debrief an interview on a reporting trip to travel plans for the tour.

You can even use it to help plan your trip to see the Crime Junkie Life Rule No. 10 tour.

Get your Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra now at Samsung.com.

Seamless actions across apps is compatible with select apps.

Requires Google Gemini account. Results may host, Ashley Flowers.
And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today has been years in the making.
It all started when we set out to cover one unsolved case in Wisconsin. But what we uncovered was a possible serial killer at work in the state and 10 eerily similar cases that had never been connected, separated by jurisdiction and bureaucracy.

But sometimes it takes a little podcast and three years of work to get people working together and thinking outside of the box.

So our story today starts with the case that piqued our interest years ago, and that's

the murder of Reese Pocan. On September 2nd, 1989, the non-emergency dispatch line at the Sheboygan County Sheriff's Office in Wisconsin started to ring.
The caller won't give his name, but he says earlier that morning, like sometime before sunrise,

he and his wife were walking in Nicos. sheriff's office in Wisconsin started to ring.
The caller won't give his name, but he says earlier

that morning, like sometime before sunrise, he and his wife were walking in Nichols Creek, which is this like public hunting ground, and they stumbled upon a dead body. So the dispatcher asked like, are you sure it's a human body? And the man says, quote, oh yeah, it's been decapitated and it's been there for a while apparently.
Now he explains that he saw the body about 100 feet off a public access road and when the dispatcher offers to get a detective on the line, the man's like, no, no, no, no, like I just found it. I wanted to report it.
Like, I don't want anything to do with this basically, right? So he hangs up without identifying himself and leaves before authorities actually get to the scene where they do find the body that he described. And it is in a particularly gruesome state.
This victim is severely decomposed, like almost mummified, and the victim's head and hands are missing. And it appears as if the corpse had been scavenged by animals and insects.
Like, the insides are literally hollowed out and the skin is almost like leather. And other than the body, though, there is nothing else at the scene.
And despite searching far and wide, they don't find any other body parts. They don't find any clothes, no personal belongings, which makes identification essentially impossible.
But based on the pelvic bone of this victim, the ME determines that this was a female and a small scar on her abdomen, plus surgical clips near where the gallbladder would have been, tells them that this Jane Doe likely had a gallbladder surgery. But there aren't any obvious markings or wounds on the body, so the cause of death is undetermined.
And strangely, the manner of death is ruled undetermined too. Ma'am, she was decapitated.
How is that undetermined in any way? I listen, everyone agrees with you, like now. But back in the day, I guess the Emmy, so this guy named Dr.
Jeffrey Jensen, says that the head and hands being gone, again, he's saying this way back when in 89, he says that could be due to like animal predation. And they didn't take her feet.
Animals just came and took the things that could identify her. I know.
It sounds bananas when you say it out loud. But everyone back then was like, well, that's what the ME says.
Like he's the professional. Except, yes, he was a professional, but he was new at his profession at the time.
And we actually talked to this doctor for this episode. We asked him to review his own old findings.
And he said that if he could do it all over again with, like, what he knows now, his experience, he would definitely list her death as a homicide rather than leaving that line blank. He said that in 89, again, he's brand new to the job.
And in talking to us, he admitted that there's like just no possible way that her head and hands were actually removed by animals. So anyways, almost two months later, the Waukesha County Sheriff's Office, which is just over an hour south of Sheboygan, they get a surprise when a hunter walks into their office with a severed hand in a bag.
Now, this man, Russell Martin, says that he was out with his son and their dog, like pheasant hunting on October 21st in this big open field, which, by the way, is also a public hunting ground, when all of a sudden his dog starts acting super strange, like off in the distance, like he's not right next to's just rolling around on the ground it's like I have Chuck I know he's rolling in something dead always like it's terrible so he's not coming when he calls him he goes over there to see what his dog's doing and he gets the shock of his life when it's not animal poop or an animal he's rolling in he like looks at what his dog is so worked up over and it is a human hand. It looked like a left hand, mostly skeletal with four fingers and no thumb.
But thumb or no thumb, there is no doubt what Russell is looking at. So he actually, he doesn't call police like they did with the body.
He like picks up the hand and takes it to the sheriff's office in like this little plastic baggie that he had in a first aid kit. And then the sheriff comes out to like where he found it.
They end up doing this big search of the area, which turns up the other hand, but nothing else. So basically in Sheboygan, there's a body with no head or hands.
And in Waukesha, there's hands with no body. So Waukesha actually tried getting fingerprints off the hand to try and identify them.

But I told you, it's like mostly skeletal.

Like, it's not even really possible.

But then, I'm not really totally sure, like, which department it was.

Someone has this, like, light bulb moment and is like, oh, wait a minute.

Exactly what you said.

Like, I wonder if these hands belong to that body that has no hands.

Right.

Now, they couldn't definitively connect anything yet. But, like, you know, come on, probably.
Though, even if they could say that these hands belong to the body, like, you still can't say who this person is, right? Can we at least call it a homicide? Because animals didn't take the hands and drive them 80 miles away. Of course, we could if they were determined to be connected, right? But they can't for sure say that.
Like, this is where DNA would be super useful right about now. But in 1989, in rural Wisconsin, like, forget about it.
It's not until like six months later in April of 1990 that efforts are finally made to see if detectives can finally match the Waukesha County hands to the Sheboygan County body, and more importantly, try and identify who they belong to. So lab tests are done out of state, but those ultimately come back inconclusive.
Okay, this might be a dumb question, but I assume they've gone through all of their, like, cataloged missing people, right? Not dumb question, no, but yes, they have. So there's nothing in either of these counties that fits the little information they have.
But after these inconclusive lab results, investigators decide to broaden their search. And I mean, considering how far apart these remains are, like clearly someone is willing to travel to cover their tracks here.
So they start looking as far away as Milwaukee, which is a pretty big city with a lot more missing person reports. And one of them really stands out.
There is a 35-year-old woman who was reported missing in August of 1989 named Reese Pocan. Not only does the timing fit since she went missing about a month before the body was found, but there is a note in her missing persons report about a gallbladder surgery scar that really raises some eyebrows.

And it's that scar that helps detectives confirm less than a month later what they've been waiting almost a year to find out.

Their Jane Doe is without a doubt Reese Pocan.

But now they have even more questions because the circumstances around Reese's disappearance are truly bizarre. The story of her disappearance begins on August 10th, 1989.
So Reese had dropped her eight-year-old daughter, Charlie, off with her sister, Flavia, who was Charlie's aunt. And I actually got to meet Charlie.
And even all these years later, she says that she can still remember her last moments with her mom vividly. And there are certain parts of this episode, I'll tell you right up front, that I want you to hear something directly from the person who lived it.
And this is one of those. So here's Charlie.
I do remember that day and it's always kind of just replays in my head. She told me I had to go to my aunt's house that she was going to watch me and so we rode our bikes down.
She didn't live far from us and then we got there and I was like well I don't want to stay here. I want to go with you because I would go with her sometimes.
So I was like I don't want to go. I don't want to stay here.
I want to go with you and she's like no you can't this time. You have to stay here and then I remember watching her ride her bike away and I was mad.
And then I turned around and that was the last time I saw her. It replays all the time.
And, you know, now I look back and it's just kind of weird because I'm watching her, you know, right away, not knowing that's the last time I would see her. But it's really hard when you look back and, you know, that was the last time I was going to see her.
Did your mom tell you why you couldn't go with her that day? She just said you couldn't. I just couldn't go with her that day.
And she didn't say. Reese's brother Billy also remembers seeing Reese that afternoon on her bike.
And this is likely right after she dropped Charlie off. But he's not totally sure of the timing.
He said they spoke for a second and Reese seemed like she was in good spirit. She told him that she was on her way to her boyfriend's house.
We're going to call her boyfriend Chris. So Chris told Billy that Reese had stopped by his place and he puts that at like 2 45 3 p.m.
which would have been right before he left for work. And then Chris says that Reese headed out on her bike in the direction of nearby National Avenue to go bar hopping.
And this is where things start to get weird because there was this trail of sightings and encounters and even physical signs of Reese Pocan in the following hours. But sometime before midnight, she seemingly vanished into thin air.
Studies show burglars are 300% less likely to target homes with security systems. With SimpliSafe's outdoor cameras and ActiveGuard outdoor protection, live security agents can even speak to potential intruders so they know they're being watched.
And they'll think twice before making a move. Traditional security systems only take action after someone has already broken in.
That's too late. SimpliSafe's ActiveGuard Outdoor Protection can help prevent break-ins before they happen.
There's no long-term contracts or cancellation fees, and monitoring plans start affordably at around $1 a day. SimpliSafe has always been an easy choice for me and my family.
They're always on the forefront of the latest technology in home security, while keeping their service affordable and easy to use. Visit SimpliSafe.com slash Crime Junkie to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and your first month free.
That's SimpliSafe.com slash Crime Junkie. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.
T-Mobile Home Internet is all about speed. Value.
Uh, what you doing, Zach? I'm rehearsing for our T-Mobile Home Internet radio commercial.

Why don't we do a little vocal warm-up?

I love their fast speed.

I love their fast speed.

I love their fast speed.

Try singing it.

T-Mobile has price lock.

They won't raise your rate on internet.

Just one chord.

It's an easy set.

Easy set.

Get T-Mobile Home Internet for just $35 a month with auto pay and any postpaid voice line. All of Reese Pocan's last movements center around this one strip of establishments on National Avenue.
The first sighting of her there is actually around 9-ish at a bar called the Golden Spike Tavern. And apparently, while she's there, Reese seems pretty drunk or like just out of it.
Now, where she was from the time she left Chris's place to the time she got to this bar and how she got so drunk or whatever it is she was, that's unclear. There are no confirmed sightings of her during that period.
But the bartender at this bar says that around 10 or 11 p.m., Reese ends up leaving with this older man named Harry to go, like, sleep it off at his house. Oh, I don't like that.
So that was my first reaction, too. But apparently, like, it's not as sinister as it sounds.
The bartender says that Harry lives, like, right around the corner from the bar. And he's known, I guess, to let barflies kind of crash at his place if they're too drunk to drive home or in Reese's case bike home so she says that Reese just like grabs her backpack and heads out with Harry on foot.
Did she leave her bike behind? It would seem so and actually a few days later when her brother Billy is trying to retrace her last steps like on his own he does find her yellow bike propped up outside of a place called Jean's Unicorn Bar, which is right across the street from Golden Spike Tavern. It's possible she was there like in between that time.
We just want to be sightings of her. But anyway, according to Harry, when he and Reese go to his backyard gate, Reese kind of like stumbles and drops her backpack in his yard.
So Harry like bends over, he picks it up to like hand it back to her. But before he even can, Reese darted back toward National Avenue.
So Harry started walking back toward the bar to return her back to her. And she's like out of eyesight by this point.
And when Harry gets back to the bar, he sees actually Reese's flip-flops like neatly placed together on the sidewalk outside. So he scoops her shoes up, planning to return those as well.
But when he gets inside of the Golden Spike Tavern, she's nowhere to be found. So he just leaves the items with the bartender.
Do we know if Reese ever made it inside the bar? That's unclear. But around 11.35 p.m., Reese encounters a woman named Shirley, who works at the American Indian Council on Alcoholism, which is just down the road from the bars on National Avenue.
And I guess Reese was known to attend this council sometimes, so she wasn't a stranger to Shirley. But Shirley says basically she's working a late night session and was approaching the front doors to leave when she sees Reese coming inside.
And she said that Reese was incoherent when she tried to speak with her. She seemed to be under the influence of something, but she didn't know what.
Shirley thought maybe it was drugs only because she said she didn't smell alcohol on her. And she said that Reese's words were like slurred when she's trying to talk to her.
She just wasn't really making sense, but she seemed super agitated. And Shirley says that she tried to talk to Reese, but Reese sort of just like pushed her away.
And from there, Reese walked off without explanation, without shoes, in the eastbound direction of National Avenue. Now, what's interesting is Charlie told us that her mom did drink a lot, but the only drug she ever experimented with was pot and not even that often.
But maybe that's something that you keep from your kids. Totally possible.
But I will say the investigator on this case today, his name is Detective Nathan Hatch, he says that that seems to kind of be backed up by other family members, like not just her eight-year-old kid. Apparently Reese did like to drink beer, but she wasn't into especially hard drugs.
Which makes me wonder if someone drugged her at the bar. It makes me wonder too.
I mean, it would be great to have other accounts of her behavior or what she said when she sobered up, but this encounter with Shirley at 11.35 p.m. is the last known time that Reese Pocan is ever seen alive.
She never shows back up at her sister's house at the agreed upon time to get Charlie. So Flavia ends up taking Charlie back to Reese's apartment herself and not finding Reese there.
She ends up leaving Charlie with the downstairs neighbor, Carla. And Reese basically lives in this duplex.
So she lives on top, Carla lives on bottom. And Carla watches Charlie like pretty regularly since Reese works full time.
So it wasn't all that odd when Charlie got dropped off. But what was odd was when Reese didn't show up the rest of the night or the next day on the 11th or the 12th.
I mean, normally her routine was to pop by every four hours or so to make sure everything was good when Charlie was with Carla. But two days went by without so much as a word.
And Carla didn't think to tell anyone? Reese's boyfriend, came by looking for Reese. Apparently, he and Reese were in this bowling league together, and she had been totally MIA to their bowling alley date.
So he figured that something might be wrong, but it really wasn't until that moment that he and Carla both realized how wrong things were. So they raised a flag for her brother, Billy, and he came over to stay with Charlie until Reese came back.
But when she still wasn't there on the 13th, the next day, like all bets are off. That Sunday, August 13th, Billy reported Reese missing to the Milwaukee PD and an investigation began.
And really it's like investigation light, I should say, because police call the local hospitals, they call the jails. But of course, they don't find Reese in any of those.
And five days later, at the suggestion of Reese's mother, Zane, they pulled Reese's bank records, which showed some transactions on August 7th and 8th and 9th, but nothing on the 10th or after, which is kind of just confirming what they already knew. Also, leave it to the mom to suggest like very routine, basic investigative moves.

I know, yeah. So in all that time that Reese has been missing, in almost the year before she was connected to that body, showing up in Sheboygan, the Pocan family, to your point, is like pretty much their own investigators.
Like they were having to unravel her disappearance themselves.

Like her brother Billy was actually the one who went and canvassed the National Avenue bars in the early days when police wouldn't.

He was the one who went and canvassed the National Avenue bars in the early days when police wouldn't. He was the one, like I said, to find her bike.
And he is the one who found out that her backpack and shoes were left at the bar with the bartender at the Golden Spike Tavern. Did Milwaukee PD do anything to search for her? I mean, at a certain point, they like follow Billy's lead and start canvassing the bars themselves.
But I think that their lack of action probably can be attributed to two things. Number one, 1989 Milwaukee was prime dommer time.
Like he gets arrested in 91. And listen, he's like not connected to Reese's story, even though we're talking dismemberments, but it's just proximity.
And like really close proximity. So interesting.
as we're like in Milwaukee, we were like going to all the places that like things that happened, like the scene, the bar she was at. And as we're driving, the detective's like, oh, by the way, that was Dahmer's house.
Like it's literally six blocks east of where Reese's boyfriend Chris lived. But again, just a coincidence that we stumbled across.
And I don't think police at any point were ever trying to even connect Reese to the Dahmer stuff back then, even before he was like found. Right.
Dahmer targeted men like exclusively. Exactly.
But still, again, this is like Milwaukee PD was zeroed in on that investigation and maybe didn't have the bandwidth to dive into Reese's case as they should have. But the second reason that Reese wasn't getting the full force of the MPD behind her was likely because of who she was.
Reese was an indigenous woman and a single mother. And she didn't just leave behind Charlie.
She had three other daughters too, Barbara, Regina, and Michelle. They were a little older than Charlie.
They lived with different relatives out of town. Michelle was 11 when missing.
Like, she was living with her grandma. She hadn't seen her mom since she was very little.
So all of the sisters had vastly different relationships with Reese, but her going missing still deeply affected all of them. The summer that Reese vanished, Barbara was actually considering moving to Milwaukee to live with her mom and Charlie.
So they had to have been like pretty close or kind of close, even though the relationship was long distance. But all that to say, I do wonder if Reese's scattered family played into this assumption that the police maybe had or were making about her life or her lifestyle.
And then just add on top of that assumption, just a general apathy toward indigenous people. As an adult, Reese was a member of the Bad River La Pointe Band of the Lake Superior tribe of Chippewa Indians.
And there is no arguing that indigenous people, especially those who go missing or are murdered, are treated vastly different than their white counterparts. And I can say it, but here is where I want you to hear it from someone who has lived it.
So this is Reese's daughter, Michelle. This happens to our people all the time.
They have reports of these Caucasian women that go missing. Nobody reports about us.
It's like we don't exist. They need to realize we're still here.
But a lot of our women, we go through a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff we don't talk about.
Our families, we bury stuff. Our tribes, they bury stuff.
They don't want stuff to get out there. But it happens.
And there's so many of our women. Sorry.
They're gone. Nobody knows where they're at.
There's so many of our women that they're they're gone nobody knows where they're at there's so many

of our women that are found and it's a shame that we have to go through this we've been dealing with this for god hundreds of years and it's this is like something that really just touches my soul because it's sad that it's hit my family.

And we have to go through this.

And, you know, and it's not just our race. There's also other races that are going through this as well.
Our brown sisters are going through the same thing. We're all still here and we need the attention just as much as everybody else.
But Reese's disappearance didn't get much attention, and not just from the police. The press at the time wasn't really talking about this missing mother either.
And for Charlie, it sort of seemed like nobody cared about her mom, who just up and vanished. It was very confusing, because I remember when I went to my aunt's house, and she was missing for a while, I remember being very angry and saying, I don't understand why they can't find her.
Like, she's probably just down at the bar by our house. Did anybody go there? You know, have they looked there? Have they, you know, why can't they find her? I remember being very upset that I just couldn't understand why nobody could find her.
At this point, Charlie was living with her aunt, uncle, and their five sons,

and that situation was starting to feel more permanent.

It was a completely different world there.

I was used to just being my mom and I, and that's it.

And then all of a sudden, I have five boys.

It was very different from what I had known,

and we lived in the country.

I was used to the city. It was a pretty big shift.
And then obviously not having my mom. But it was nice.
You know, it was different having all those people with you. But I know they cared about me and stuff.
So it was good. Charlie had been living with her aunt for almost two months when the call from the Sheboygan County Sheriff's Office came in.
They had found Reese's body. And Charlie still remembers what that conversation was like with her aunt and uncle

when they told her. They had sat us all down and they had told us that, you know, my mom's remains

were found and, you know, that she had been murdered. And I remember just sitting there

and not knowing what to do. It was almost like I was frozen.
And then I remember my aunt was like, it's okay to cry. I start crying.
I know I couldn't process everything. I remember telling my aunt that I remember I had to help her home from the bar one time and maybe she was sick.
And she's like, no, you know, somebody killed her. And I was like, I was like oh okay yes that's right so I remember just being like very confused and not totally understanding but it was like I didn't know what to think I knew they had found her torso and then I knew her hands and her skull were missing but I didn't totally know like where they found what.
They would share things with me, but I don't remember like a lot of the details. My ancestors, they told me, they always try to be honest with me.
So I don't know if maybe I block some of it out, but I don't remember them really telling me her hands are found here or her cell was found here and torts was found here. Any of those actual details of, you know, or a taxi or anything like that.
Reese's skull would end up being found more than a year and a half after Reese went missing in the Vernon Marsh area. And this is about a quarter of a mile from where her hands were found.
But finding her skull doesn't progress the investigation much. It's not like it's in a new location that gives them clues.
Plus, the skull didn't show any markings or signs of trauma that would indicate even how Reese died. Is it weird that they didn't find the skull before? Possibly, but I mean, Detective Hatch took me to that marsh, and we were talking about the possibility of animal activity there.
Like, I mean, it is this big wildlife area, so animals could have easily moved the hands or skull for that matter. Now, Charlie couldn't understand how anyone could have wanted to do this to her mom.
No one in their family could. Not even Detective Hatch could because everyone he spoke with during the investigation had just glowing things to say about Reese.
Her coworkers at the Bradley Center, where she worked as an admin assistant, loved her. Her friends loved her.
There wasn't an obvious suspect. That is, until police learned about Reese's boyfriend, Chris.
And there was something that right off the bat set up some pretty big red flags. After a night of drinking, recovery is tough.
With Z-Biotics pre-alcohol, you don't have to choose between a great night and a great next day. Their probiotic was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking.
Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut.
It's this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough next day. Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down.
This is a proactive solution that wards off feeling miserable the next day instead of a reactive approach like drinking electrolytes or eating greasy food. Listen, I'm 36 now, and even if I have a sitter the night before, I have to mom in the morning.
And they're not big. This is this teeny tiny vial that I throw back and voila.
Go to zbiotics.com slash crimejunkie to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Crime Junkie at checkout. Thank you, Zbiotics, for sponsoring this episode and my good times.
As we transition to spring, let Brooklinen turn your bed into a space for everything, whether it's snuggling with loved ones, tackling busy mornings with the kids, or unwinding after it all. Brooklinen has everything you need to give your home a refresh, from high-quality comforters and cotton throw blankets to plush bath towels and robes, all available in a variety of colors and patterns to fit your aesthetic.
Brooklinen sheets are tried and true with over 200,000 five-star reviews and millions of happy customers. Count me as one of them.
And their customizable bundles make it easy to update your bed and bathroom, putting everything you need in one place. My entire bed and bath situation at my home is Brooklinen.
All the sheets, all the towels. There is just no competition.
No one, and I mean no one, makes a crisp, cool sheet like Brooklinen. Shop award winners and fan faves in-store or online at brooklinen.com.
That's B-R-O-O-K-L-I-N-E-N.com. Get 15% off your first order today.
It was a few of Reese's siblings who first became suspicious of Chris, like again, very quickly. And for two reasons, mostly.
One, he had been dating another woman at the same time as Reese. And apparently he started dating this other woman in July and then continued to see her through September while Reese was missing.
And two, apparently his story kept changing. Like originally he told police that the last time he saw Reese, she was biking away from his apartment heading south after visiting him on the day in question.
But later, he told police that the last time he saw her was in his apartment and that he never saw her biking after that, which is like small inconsistencies, but they stuck out nonetheless. And he also didn't have an alibi for the night that Reese disappeared.
Chris originally told Billy and detectives,

again, Billy is Reese's brother,

he said that he was at work while Reese was at the bars.

Now, I don't know if they checked with his work,

but even if they did, his shift was scheduled to end at 11 p.m.

We know that Reese was last seen at 11.35,

so he would have been off work at the time that something happened to her.

Yeah, it's not really an alibi.

Right.

Also, it comes to light that Chris apparently sold one of his SUVs a few weeks after Reese's disappearance. And they tried back in the day to track down this car, which was a 1972 red and white Toyota Land Cruiser, but they're never able to locate it, which leaves them with a lot of questions about not only Chris, but specifically his car.
I mean, without a doubt, Reese would have had to have been transported in a vehicle all the way to where she was found in Sheboygan. So, like, there's no way around that.
They need a vehicle. And I mean, what are the odds that Reese's cheating boyfriend's car conveniently gets sold? It stands out.
Right, after she goes missing. Right? So, Chris also told detectives that he, by the way, had hunted out in the Vernon Marsh before, which is where her hands and her head end up being found.
And we know perps tend to dispose of things or commit crimes in areas where they're comfortable, that they're familiar with. But the thing is, they couldn't really tie Chris to Sheboygan or the Nichols Creek area where Reese's body was.
And on top of that, is there like a motive? Did he have a story of like violence or violence with her? So, I mean, he admitted to slapping Reese one time and Carla, the downstairs neighbor, said she heard them arguing sometimes, but she said it was like normal relationship arguing. And I don't know what that means to Carla, but I don't think it was anything super violent in her mind.
I think that everyone who's maybe side-eyeing Chris maybe believes that if he had something to do with it, it might have been just to get her out of the way so he could date that other woman. But even if Chris wasn't violent, if she didn't suffer abuse at his hand, the thing I'll say about Reese is that she had known what life with an abusive partner was like.
Enter suspect number two, Larry. Larry was Reese's most recent ex before Chris.
The two had started dating after Reese gave birth to Charlie, and Charlie actually grew up thinking that Larry was her dad, but he wasn't her actual biological father. Still, he lived with Reese and Charlie in the early 80s, and he definitely had a temper.
Like, he was not only violent, but also known to stalk Reese. And here is Detective Nathan Hatch.
As we took a look at Larry, he stood out to us because he was abusive towards Reese. Not only did we find medical records of abuse, where Reese had went to the

hospital in Lackera Falls for abuse, where she had like a broken rib or a contusion on her face

or a broken fingernail, that kind of thing. On three separate occasions, she reported her boyfriend

at that time had abused her. But we also found out that he had dated a girl in Illinois who he was

abusive towards as well. I was scared for my mom.
He was always very loving towards me, and I never had an issue with being afraid of him, but I was definitely afraid of when they would start fighting. And it was really hard because I knew how to call the cops right away.
I knew that at a very young age of how to do that, and it's not something my kids should know. But when detectives speak to Larry, they find out that he was living in Illinois in the summer of 89.
And so at that point, they're like, oh, he's out of town. They pretty much just write him off.
Okay, where in Illinois, though? Because this Midwesterner knows that it's just a hop, skip and a jump from Chicago to Milwaukee. And it was Chicagoland.
Like, you're right. But at the time, I guess the alibi seemed good enough.
Larry's girlfriend says she was with him. So, like, that's kind of the end on Larry.
But our reporting team recently got a hold of Larry, and he told us that when Reese disappeared, they had already been separated for, like, two years. And after he moved to Illinois, he says they didn't visit each other or really stay in touch.
He didn't admit to any abuse, but he did say that drinking was a big problem in their relationship. And Larry told us that when he lived in Illinois that summer, he didn't have a car, which was like implying that he couldn't have easily gotten back to Milwaukee.
Now, he didn't explicitly say that he didn't visit Milwaukee during his stint in Illinois, but he did explicitly tell us that he did not kill Reese.

And I assume Chris was denying any involvement in Reese's murder, too.

Yes, and we tried repeatedly to get in touch with him as well, but no luck there.

What I know is he told police back in the day that he didn't have anything to do with it, like barking up the wrong tree.

Did anyone ever search Chris's apartment or even Reese's apartment for that matter? No and no. I know they did search whatever vehicle that Chris still had, but they didn't find anything in that.
And I know that Reese's daughter Barbara actually moved into her mom's apartment after she went missing. And she told police that there was nothing out of place there, which again, just like seemed like enough for them.
Like, OK, thumbs up. So by this point, to try and generate some leads in the homicide investigation, detectives put out the news of Reese's identification to the local media.
And over the next six months, a handful of tips come in. Dozens of callers are naming people in the area that they're suspicious of or saying that they might have seen Reese that night.
Is there anything legit? Well, it seems like maybe some of the tips could have been. But again, I go back to like, what are the reasons this case didn't get worked? Were they overwhelmed? Did they not care? Whatever.
Plus add the fact that like Detective Hatch told us that the area she was in that night that she went out and had this like criminal element to it so people were calling in with like all these like names of sketchy people who might have been around national avenue and for all the reasons listed above i think things just got like lost in the shuffle or again just like not paid attention to ignored whatever and none of these tipsters are even naming the same people so like every single one is different and you can't like prioritize who like five people are saying it's this person. Everyone's saying someone different.
So they field the calls. They run down a few of them.
And remember, running them down is no easy task since they were having to make. This isn't Milwaukee.
Milwaukee had the missing persons case. Sheboygan has the homicide.
So to go like try and find these people to go to the bars like they're making the hours long trip down to Milwaukee where she was last seen every time they want to run something down. They don't have the internet back then.
You know what I mean? Now, the only super interesting tip is from a man who in a very roundabout and confusing way calls in at like 2.30 in the morning one day and tells the dispatcher that he knows who killed Reese. He says that he was with his friend that night and they picked Reese up.
And when she didn't do what his friend wanted, his friend pulled a knife on her. Wait, so basically this is a confession? Kind of, like a hearsay confession.
So basically the caller tells the dispatcher that like gives the friend's name, everything, gives an address, which, by the way, the address is

extremely close to National Avenue where Reese was last seen. And the dispatcher keeps trying

to, like, get more details about this, like, murderer friend. And the caller says it's so

wild. He says, you're talking to him right now.
And so the dispatcher's immediately like, wait, yeah, you're telling me you killed her? And he's like, no, no, no, no, my friend did. And the dispatcher asked like why he's providing this information.
And he's like, I'm just feeling really guilty. And then he goes on to say that he doesn't want to face jail time.
But again, he's like, I know my friend killed Reese because they were together at the bush bar that night. And like, that's where his friend picked Reese up.
And then the caller says that about three weeks after all this, his friend told him what he did to her. So he's not even like he was there.
So a detective follows up on this call. He actually figures out the name of the caller.
And that phone number that he gave actually belongs to the caller's mom. But guess what? That is the extent of the detective work.
This call basically, again, call it lost in the shuffle of other tips or whatever. They just stop investigating on that and things go quiet.
So, wait, did they rule this guy out? No, like the lead just stops getting work. They just stop working on it.
Yeah. Okay, but if things go quiet, this feels like the kind of thing you'd like circle back on when you have absolutely nothing else.
Right. But they don't, which is like a clear mistake because in early 91, some more tips come in.
One of them is anonymous, but says that Reese was seen at the Bush bar the night she went missing. Where the caller said she had been.
Right, and it's along the same strip of bars as everything else. And they say she was seen there sometime around 9 p.m.
and that she left with a white man. Potentially the caller who pseudo-confessed and implicated his friend.
And I know he's a white guy. So, like, it feels very freaking interesting all of a sudden.
But when they're getting this new tip, because that other lead got just dropped, they're not putting two and two together. Well, we know she's seen After 9 as well.
And then, like, she's alone when she's last seen. Right.
But that doesn't mean that she didn't, like, meet back up with someone. So, like, I get what you're saying.
Like, she's not with him the whole time. Right.
But they could have reconnected. I think anyone in her orbit that night is worth identifying and getting more information from.
Though there is another tip that they get from a woman who says that she knows about a group of people who saw Reese the night that she went missing just before midnight, which is even more interesting. Yeah, that feels more promising.
Yes. She says that this group of people knew Reese and they saw her walking barefoot in the eastbound direction on National Avenue.
Now, East would be away from the bars, but because this tip was third-hand information, detectives were never able to confirm either the Bushbar thing or this new sighting of her being with this group. So, in 1991, that's when the case officially goes cold and all investigative work stops.
And that's it? For another decade, at least. But in 2003, there's this, like, little blip, a strange twist in the case, one that I think throws everyone for a major curveball.
Going the extra mile to hit your goals? Let Kodiak help you hit the ground running. Discover protein-packed flapjacks, oatmeal, granola bars, and more.
Kodiak's got the easy whole grain options that help you go the distance. Get 20% off now through March 31st on kodiakcakes.com slash Kodiak Breakfast and use code KodiakBreakfast20.
Are you looking to take control of your health? One way to do that is to check GoodRx and finally stop overpaying for your prescription medications. With GoodRx, you can find big savings on your prescriptions for everything from cold and flu medications to remedies for your allergies and so much more.
GoodRx is free and easy to use. Just search for any prescription on the GoodRx website or app, get your coupon, and show it to the pharmacist.
Check GoodRx to save up to 80%

at pharmacies near you, including Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, Publix, Albertsons, Kroger, and many more. Remember, GoodRx works whether you have insurance or not, and even if you have insurance, GoodRx could beat your copay price.
For simple smart savings on your everyday prescriptions, check GoodRx. Go to GoodRx.com slash CrimeJunkie.
That's GoodRx.com slash CrimeJunkie. So in 2003, Sheboygan County gets a weird call from another police department in the region.
And they're like, hey, there's this guy here saying that he knows something about one of your murders. And this man is none other than the previously anonymous caller who first discovered Reese's body in the woods all those years ago.
And I don't know what it is about here and now, but all of a sudden he's ready to talk. So he tells police that he was in Nichols Creek with his girlfriend, by the way, not his wife, they learn, like he previously said.
He says they liked to go there to hook up. Also, he says he has this like low-key like marijuana patch and he's got to like check on his crops.
So that could explain why he didn't want to give the cops his name like back in the day.

But police find this man suspicious for a few reasons. One is because when he first called in,

he noted that the body belonged to a woman. Like he said that specifically.
I've seen the photos.

I've seen the state of decomposition. I don't know how you could tell that.

Well, you even said that it was determined that it was a woman based on like pelvic bone. Pelvic bone.
Yes. And then there's the fact that this guy was known, by the way, to hang out at the bars on National Avenue back when Reese died.
And some of his acquaintances were the same people who may or may not have seen Reese, like that group of people. Again, there's like rumors about who they were.
His acquaintances could have been that group of people. How did they all know each other? Well, one of the men who may have seen Reese around midnight or in the group or whatever was reportedly selling pills to the girlfriend of the guy who found Reese's body.
And reminder, she's with him when Reese is found. That feels too intertwined to be a coincidence.
Right? You've got somebody who's, like, at the place where she goes missing and somebody who, not only do we know they're familiar with the place where she was, they're the people who freaking called it in and, like, found her. But even though this is, like, a weird, like, tangled web, detectives, like, don't seem to be able to untangle it.
So just as soon as it seems like this case is heating up again, it goes back on the shelf with more potential suspects added to the list. I almost feel like if that guy who found her wasn't a part of what happened to Reese, then maybe he heard about it and went out there looking to see if the rumor he heard was true.
You know, like kind of looking into like how legit it was. Right.
And like he did have that little like grow operation, like I mentioned. And again, like grow operation may be too big of a word.
It's like a patch of marijuana out there. So I don't know.
Like I can't shake the feeling that it feels more connected to me. I also like like, can't shake the feeling of, like, why come forward all those years later?

Because it's not like he's saying he knows who did it, saying he knows more.

But, like, finding this body is, like, weighing on him.

You know what I mean?

I don't know.

If I found a body in, you know, I call police and they found it, whatever, and I wanted to be anonymous, I don't think I would come forward years later.

And be like, I was the one who called it in.

And it was me, but I have nothing new to say.

Right.

Oh, and one of the other things I forgot to mention, the reason I find it so weird, is that in this guy's original call to police, when he wouldn't give his name, he also said that it was dark when he stumbled upon the body. And again, like I said, like this body isn't in a state that you could tell the gender, even under fluorescent lights, let alone in like a pitch black field.
Right. So all of these tips are coming in.
But for Reese's daughter, Charlie, it felt like answers in her mom's case were further away than ever. My family didn't really want to talk about it, that it hurt too much.
And I understood that. So I just kind of let it go.
So many years have passed and they never found anybody. So I just assumed, well, that's kind of just the way it is.
There's not going to be anything that comes of this. I don't think I was too hopeful that anything would come of it.
So I just didn't want to maybe bring myself through that pain of not finding answers. Because it had been so long, and I felt like there was nobody investigating.
Like she was forgotten. Over the next couple of decades, they actually reopen the case a handful of times when various tips come in.
But every time after a few months, the case just ends up back on the shelf. And this goes on pretty much until 2017, when Detective Hatch is assigned the case almost 30 years later.
But even then, Detective

Hatch is still working other active cases for the sheriff's department. So he's only able to focus on Reese's in between those assignments.
In that time, though, he is able to check off important things. Like in 2018, he sends a bone from one of the hands to a lab in Texas to definitively connect that bone to Reese.

Then in 2021,

Audiochuck enters the chat.

So that's actually when I hired our reporter, Emily. She was our first reporter on my other weekly show, The Deck.
And she was planning a reporting trip to Sheboygan County, Wisconsin to cover some deck episodes when she came across Reese's case. So she asked the sheriff's office for an interview about her because she could only find like one or two lone articles about this woman.
And she was the only cold case in the county not on the Wisconsin cold case card deck. And we just kind of became obsessed.
So Hatch said it was actually Emily coming along that really sparked him to go all in on this case. But hi, in case you haven't looked at the calendar yet, it's 2025.
We have been playing the long game. Hatch had to do the unsexy part of investigating first, like digitizing the case file.
But when he was ready to start the investigative work, there was one person at the top of his list that he wanted to look into first. And that was Larry.
The ex? Mm-hmm. I thought he was ruled out for being just across the border in Illinois during Reese's disappearance.
That's, again, as— That's the point? Yeah, exactly. But here's the thing.
So what I appreciate about Hatch is he's like, I want to do my due diligence. Like, I'm going to get the alibi for myself.
And he sees what we see. Like, he can't tell if him being in Illinois was A, like, meaningful.
And honestly, was that even corroborated by anyone? When we talked to him, he says, well, I couldn't have done it. I was in Illinois.
I was in Chicago. So I talked to his girlfriend, and I was able to find out from her that she remembers the Pocan family calling her house, looking to see if they could identify where Reese was, right? And he didn't know, or said he didn't know.
And she recalls, well, he couldn't have done it because he was home with me. But I reminded her that the homicide didn't take place, you know, within minutes or hours of that phone call.
So I wondered where he was prior to that. And she said about three or four days leading up to that phone call, he was gone for several days to weeks.
To me, his alibi, poof, went away. Well, that changes things.
Exactly. Because think about it.
Chicago isn't that far from Milwaukee. Right.
If Larry had access to a car, he could have popped into town easily. Of course, Larry said he didn't have a car,

but Detective Hatch actually found a driving infraction for Larry in Illinois that summer, which proves that at some point he at least had access to a car even if he didn't own it, like semantics, Larry Jesus. So even though it's possible, it doesn't prove anything, and Hatch doesn't want to get tunnel vision.

He also wants help.

So in 2022, he goes to an MMIW webinar where he finds out about the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is a federal agency that in part works to address issues like violence, missing persons, and other serious crimes affecting tribal communities. So he reaches out to them to get more eyes on the case, and they're actually able to assign a special agent to help with the investigation.
This guy's name is Michael Potter. And together, Hatch and Potter re-interview multiple suspects, including Chris, the caller who initially discovered Reese's body, and some men who popped up in initial tips.
And they conduct a number of polygraph exams with help from the FBI.

And of the seven people total that they try to give polygraphs to,

four of them refuse, three accept.

Of the three who accepted, only one showed deception.

And I guess this was one of the guys who reportedly saw Reese around midnight,

the night she went missing.

But then after he, like, fails or shows deception in this polygraph, he then refuses to answer any further questions. And all these guys are still alive.
They are, which is like the wild part. We don't often see that in cold cases.
Listen, we actually tried. We're not naming all of them.
We tried to contact all of them. Nobody had any interest in talking to us.
But anyways, around this time, detectives also finally follow up on that suspicious confession phone call from 1990. Finally! Yeah, the one where the caller told the dispatcher that his friend killed Reese after picking her up at the bush bar.
So they went to this implicated friend's house. Amber, you won't believe this, but he lives not six houses away from where Reese was last seen.

So Detective Hatch actually took Emily and me on a ride-along.

I mentioned that before.

And I'm not kidding.

I could be standing at where the Bush Bar and Alcohol Alliance used to be.

Alcohol Alliance is where she's last seen.

And I could throw a rock and hit this guy's front door.

Which to me, like, makes this mysterious friend actually a little more- A lot more interesting. A lot more interesting.
So when detectives pay him a visit in 2023, he tells them that he's not interested in being interviewed. He does admit to knowing the confession caller though, and the cops actually play the call for him right on his stoop, but he wanted no part of any of it.
And they say he became combative. So that was that.
Do they go back to the confession caller himself? They do. He tells detectives that it's not his voice on the old recording call.
Like, he's like, you got the wrong person, even though, like, it was pretty clear who it was. And then he refuses to take a polygraph.
And when Detective Hatch hands him his business card, like, hey, if you change your mind, we would love to talk to you. The guy, he's like, I'm going to rip this up when you leave.
So, cool. And it's worth noting where this guy lived back when Reese went missing.
It was just a half block north of National Avenue. Like, specifically the same cross streets where the Bush Bar was.
So even he's super close. And again, I have to ask, how could this all be a coincidence? I know.
Tangled web. I told you.
But it's like there are just too many pieces of the puzzle still missing. Basically, there's like a lot of smoke here, but they can't find the fire.
So in 2023, detectives track down Larry again. They try to talk to him in person.
Now, obviously, he's not in Illinois anymore. It turns out that in the early 90s, Larry moved back to Wisconsin and had been living in Black River Falls with a long-term partner.
Now, initially, he agrees to come in, take a polygraph, but then he ends up changing his mind. No go.
But by this point, some polygraphs given, some interviews, ripping up cards, Hatch is invested. So in September 2023, he gets Crimestoppers to put up 11 billboards with Reese's picture and information.
And he even gets some put up near Larry's house. Last we spoke to Hatch, he had interviewed about 45 more people in connection with the case.
And while he was busy doing that, Emily was doing some of her own work. On this case, but also on the other cases, because like, hi, again, we have the deck.
We're trying to collect cases from all over for another weekly show. Like, you have to be juggling like 10 cases at a time.
And I'll never forget this moment. We were in the office and Emily comes in, I'm like in the conference room and she's like, hey, I think Reese's case might be connected to a bunch of others.
And I think there might be a serial killer in Wisconsin that nobody knows about except for me. In the next episode, I will unpack our reporting on two of the other Wisconsin dismemberment cases and finally attempt to unravel this twisted thread to get some long overdue justice for these victims.
If you're in the Crime Junkie fan club, you can listen to that right now in the Crime Junkie app. And I'm bringing you yet another one of these 10 stories next week on my other show, The Deck.
That's going to be dropping next Wednesday, which means we're covering at least four of these victims' stories now. And by doing this, I'm hoping it eventually leads to us getting interviews about all of these victims.
Until then, if you know anything at all about the murder of Reese Pocan in Wisconsin, please reach out to Detective Nathan Hatch. You can reach him at his office line,

920-459-3135

or at his email,

nathan.hatch at sheunkiePodcast.com.

You can also follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.

We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production.

So, what do you think, Chuck?

Do you approve?