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Hi, crime junkies. Surprise, surprise.
A little extra Ashley Flowers in your feed today, but I'm coming to you for a very special reason. I recently got the opportunity to interview Anna Kendrick about her new movie on Netflix, Woman of the Hour.
I'll tell you right up front, you guys, 10 out of 10. Highly recommend.
Now, our interview was originally for my SiriusXM show, Crime Junkie AF, which if you didn't know, you can find in the SiriusXM app or in the Crime Junkie fan club. But this interview was just too good.
It was like so right up your alley that I begged SiriusXM to let me share it with all of you because it turns out Anna Kendrick is just like us. Because along with talking about Woman of the Hour, which by the way is her directorial debut, we also talked about her personal experiences, what led her to this story, and her interest in true crime as a whole.
So whether you're an OG crime junkie or you just found us because you're a fan of Anna, this conversation is one that you don't want to miss. And if you're here because you're an Anna Kendrick fan, hi, me too.
And welcome to your ultimate true crime destination where you can hear the true story behind Woman of the Hour and the stories behind hundreds of other true crime cases. So take a listen right here, right now, or if you want, you can catch a video version of this conversation on the Crime Junkie YouTube channel.
And after you listen to this interview, don't forget to listen to the episode of Crime

Junkie titled Serial Killer Rodney Alcala to hear the details of the case behind Anna Kendrick's

Woman of the Hour. I'm going to link to it right in the show notes for you.
I promise you'll love

it, but you're going to love this too. Enjoy.
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers.
And if you're watching this, you'll notice I'm not in my normal place. I'm in a very special place with a very special guest.
Most of you will recognize her from her work. She's multi-talented in many ways, from being an Oscar and Tony nominated actress to an author, singer, songwriter.
And you are now starring in Netflix's Woman of the Hour. And it is your directorial debut.
Anna Kendrick, you guys. And for my daughter, who was giving me a guilt trip before I left, she would think I was so cool that I was meeting Poppy.
Oh, oh my God. I love that.
Wait, how old is she? Oh, she's two and a half. Oh, okay.
So this is a tricky age because when parents are like, oh my gosh, look, it's Poppy, and they introduce a child to me. Oh, it's like such a bummer.
It's like floods of tears immediately because I don't have pink skin and pink hair, and it's just awful. They're like, that not poppy.
I'm just going to let her listen. She's going to be thrilled.

Oh, great. Great, great, great.

So I'm so excited. First of all, Women of the Hour was incredible.
I got a little sneak peek.

Thank you so much.

I truly loved it. Start to finish.

Well, I feel like a loser fangirl in my merch right now.

I know.

But it's such cute merch. Like I get a lot of merch and it's usually like, oh, you ruined

a perfectly good shirt. This is so good.

Thank you.

Anyway, sorry. Go ahead.

Thank you.

Well, so yeah, speaking of being a crime junkie, like how did you get to this place? Because this is a little bit of a departure. You've done some like serious stuff, but I mean like this is like serious in like a serious way.
No, I was like, I don't even think I've ever been in a movie that was this genre or this kind of intense of a movie. Because even, like, the thriller stuff that you've done has still been kind of lighthearted.
Yeah, yeah. And I am very aware that most people know me from one of a couple of, like, lighthearted musical franchises.
Poppy. Yeah, Poppy or Pitch Perfect or whatever.
And so, yeah, I even got some, not pushback, but my friends were questioning the decision. Like, I sent a filmmaker friend the script and I was like, do you think this is crazy for me to do? I was mostly thinking about, hey, here's the story.
Here's the very limited budget and timeframe that we have. And I would be jumping on to this movie.
I'd be pitching myself to direct this movie and it starts in six weeks. So do you think that's just a terrible idea and I'm just setting myself up for failure? And, you know, he was like, well, it's a lot.
But mostly he was like, I confess, I've been hoping you would direct something for a long time. And I'm surprised that it's this.
Really? And he was like, I think, you know, once I got it further into the script, I could see a lot of themes around moving through the world as a woman and trying to stay safe. That makes sense to me.
But, you know, he was really kind of referencing the opening scene of the movie, which was interesting because I love that scene and I fought for that scene. Which I heard.
Yeah I'm so glad that you did because I can see why many people would want to remove it, but I think it takes away from what the story is. Yeah, yeah.
And don't get me wrong, I understood why he was going this because, again, it's not really what I'm known, and it's not the kinds of film sets that I've been on a lot. But, you know, I think that even my relationship to true crime really changed a few years ago because I went through something really shocking and traumatic for me.
And I really couldn't figure out what had happened. And, you know, I don't know if you relate to this, but I'm sure many listeners will, that you really beat yourself up and go like, how did I not see? Like, how did I not know that that was coming? How did I not get myself out of that situation sooner? You know, all the ways that we really put all that shame on ourselves.
And I told him, I was like, I know that this isn't necessarily in my professional wheelhouse, but this unfortunately feels like familiar territory to me. And that question of whose shame is this? How much of your shame do I have to absorb here before I'm in harm's way? I think that question hangs over a lot of our lives more often than we realize.
And that felt central to the kind of emotional center of the story. And I've always been kind of, I don't know, I guess maybe I would consider myself to have been a more casual consumer of true crime.
And then when, you know, some things went down in a long-term relationship that I was in, I really got kind of obsessed. And I think that there's a way in which we can kind of sublimate our own stuff by feeling like, if I can just get to the bottom of why that guy or that person did that thing, maybe I could uncover some universal human truth and I could make sure that I never found myself in a situation like that again.
And I don't know how true that is, but it really changed how I consumed true crime. but at any rate, you know, the subject matter of the movie is like really gripping.
But I also hoped to be bringing in some of that emotional DNA to the entire movie. Which you did a great job of.
You said it's outside of your wheelhouse, but girl, it is not outside of your wheelhouse. You did incredible.
Oh, that's so awesome. And I feel like I just like my crime junkie brain just like jumped right in.
But do you actually, for those who don't know what Women of the Hour is about, do you want to tell them like what the story is based on? Yes. So it's funny on other outlets, I'm sort of more vague, but I guess I don't have to be here.
I was like, obviously, we I was like, obviously, we're talking about Rodney Alcala. Like, welcome to the show.
So it is based on the story of Rodney Alcala, who was a serial killer in the 1970s. And in the middle of, you know, really being able to operate without consequence for over a decade, he went on the show The Dating Game and won The Dating Game.
And so that piece of, you know, the story, that dating game piece is really used, you know, as a kind of framing device for the movie because it's really evocative of that question of, like, who can you trust and who's really behind the curtain? You know, how much can you really know about a person before you know that you're safe? We have a crime junkie life rule that you never know anyone ever. Like, truly.
Girl, tell me about it. And yeah, I mean, I sort of describe it as the story of Rodney Alcala.
But it is really meant to be the story of the impact that he had on the people that were unfortunate enough to come across him.

So the aim was always to really center the women's stories.

Yeah, I think you did a really amazing job of that.

And you had this scene, like, I was, like, crawling out of my skin.

The scene where you're, like, actually on a date with him, and you're walking to to the car and it's the whole number scene where he's like tell me your number again like why can't you remember and I was I was just my husband like didn't quite get why I was freaking out so much interesting oh he and I talk about this all the time and the way you were talking about earlier I'm like you Eric you he's this like six foot six dude and I'm, you move in the world a way that like I cannot.

Yeah.

And you cannot.

I appreciate that you empathize with being a woman, but you have no idea what it feels like that when I'm going on a walk, I'm not enjoying the walk because I'm constantly like looking here and looking there. And that car passed me twice.
And here's the license plate number. And like it's completely different.
But the way that I thought you did so well in capturing just the uncomfortable position, I think nearly every woman has probably been in at some point. Yeah.
Where it's like, I don't feel safe. I don't feel good.
But you also don't feel comfortable saying that. Yes.
And you're not totally sure if you're making it up. Like, oh, maybe I'm just being paranoid.
And the way that

we kind of second guess ourselves and try to just sort of like be pleasing and I'll just get myself

out of this situation. God, that's so interesting because there are several moments in the movie

that while we were shooting, one of the men on set would sort of say like, hey, should we do

another take of that? Like, I don't know that it's super clear, like, what's happening in this scene. And I would sort of be like, well, women are going to know what's happening in this scene.
And I think most men will, you know, follow what's happening in the movie. But, yeah, if there's like 20% of men who don't follow what's happening, that's fine with me.
You know, I would much rather... The lesson probably isn't for them.
Exactly. Don't be the creepy man.
That's your own lesson. And it feels like there's this kind of secret language of women.
And part of that is it's a fucking secret. Yeah.
So, wait, am I allowed to curse? Oh, yeah, for sure. It's serious, right? Like, fuck, I don't know.

So, you know, sometimes that means that maybe it won't be a thousand percent clear to some men, like what the dynamics are at play. But I think it's very, very clear to women.
But I think that's like the beautiful part about you having stepped in the role as director is having a woman be the lens through this story and telling it from your perspective and being able to hone in on those nuances that I don't know that someone else would have captured. And I just thought you did it in such a truly incredible way.
Oh my gosh, that's so nice. That's the nicest thing.
So how did you decide that you wanted to direct something? Because this is your first. Yeah.
I mean, you came out with a banger, but. I mean, I always feel a little embarrassed saying this, but I think I had told myself, I mean, certainly I told everyone around me and I had told myself I just wasn't interested in directing.
Because I think that it's vulnerable to want something And, you know, you might not get it or you might get it and you might fail. And so I just was constantly telling myself like, oh, I don't know.
God, directors are crazy. I'm not doing that.
And I really found myself getting kind of obsessed with this script and maybe getting a little controlling, you know, because I was attached as an actor for about two years and I was just sort of like, okay, let me know when the movie goes. Two years? Yeah, yeah.
Oh God, that's so common. Yeah.
Like you just sort of like, you attach yourself to things and you're like, well, let me know if it comes together. And then the other thing that happens is occasionally something that's been moving really, really slow for a long time will out of nowhere very quickly be coming together at lightning speed and basically going, okay, well, we got the money together and we have a window that we could shoot it in.
And if we don't, if we miss that window, we might, it might fall apart again. And at that point we didn't have a director.
And so we kind of scrambled and we were trying to find someone and we certainly weren't looking at first time directors. It was like, well, we have $3 and a roll of duct tape and it needs to happen right now.
So we were really mostly trying to find, like, pretty experienced people. And I guess I—oh, God, I feel weird saying this, but I think that I also started to feel like, wait, I'm sorry.
I've been thinking about this movie for two years, and's gonna come on and like tell me what the

movie is and I'm gonna be like you just got here um and you know there were also certain details from the true story that felt really important to me and I had always thought like well if it were my movie this is how I would do it but it's not my movie that's okay and you know very quickly I got to do like a new draft with the the screenwriter and make some changes and um I just uh yeah hard conversation being like I want it oh it was terrifying oh my god I mean I think like even in in the pitch that I did I kept saying like if you guys don't think I'm the right person that's so fine it's totally fine. I just want to do what's best for the movie.
It's okay. Like, if you don't think I'm ready, please tell me.
What people think a girl boss is, is like just coming in and like owning the room and what being a girl boss is really that. It's just being like, listen, I'm like, listen, here's the deal.
Here's like what I bring to the table. I think it's me.
I was even going like, here's what I think I bring to the table. Here are the areas of deficit like that I have.
Like I want to be honest. Like why project false confidence? Because then I was like, well, also if you hire me, it means like you have to support me because I was honest, you know? I love it.
Yeah. So how did, how did the story find you originally? Well, okay.
So it originally found me because the script just got sent to me. And I had that moment that maybe a lot of the listeners have where you go, oh, right, this guy, he was a serial killer and he went on the dating game.
And that's like mostly what you remember or what you know about it. And, you know, obviously that is a fascinating true crime story.
So I was interested from the get-go. And then when I read the screenplay, it was just, it was, it was really beautiful.
I know that's, feels like a strange thing to say, but there was so much beauty in the world of these women and you really fell in love with them in you know a very limited window really you know i mean some of the actresses in the film they have a very limited window of screen time to make you fall in love with them and be absolutely invested in what is going to happen to them and i'm just blown away by the writing and by um the actresses in the film um because you are so desperate for each one of them to come out of it on the other side and you know the movie is like chilling but it's it's heartbreaking too i have there's um one scene in particular when you talk about them having such a short time to make an impact where this girl's, like, unpacking her new apartment. And I remember, like, just feeling so much.
Like, God, I remember being, like, you know, in my very first place. And you're in a new city.
And you feel like such a big kid with your whole life in front of you. And I remember that just being, like, the emotion as I was watching that and being like, oh, God.
So even in, like, you just get, brief moment with each of those women and it was just done so well. Yeah.
And, you know, I'm sure that the listeners are very, very into, as they should be, like the details and accuracy, factual accuracy. And there are so many details in the movie that are lifted straight from the true story.
But, you know, just the way you're talking even about that scene with the apartment, you know, it just reminds me that part of the objective was also to give each woman that we meet like quite a different personality and quite a different kind of entry point to how they meet this man, how they interact with this man. Because, again, like emotionally, it felt important to kind of establish it wouldn't matter what your personality is and how you meet a person or how careful you are or how sweet you are or how tough you try to seem.
like none of that guarantees your protection from someone if they're determined to harm you yeah um and even though there i think there are really really interesting things in the movie around like the ways that some of these women managed to survive it also feels like an exercise in at least putting the shame where it belongs, which is in the hands of a person who's harmful. And never, I remember actually at one point, oh my God, I forgot about this.
Oh, this is maybe a little spoilery, but also, y'all already know the story that, you know, I play the bachelorette who's on the dating game. And so I survive.
And I remember at one point one of the producers asking me if my character should have, like, some kind of really clever plan that got her out of danger. and I was like, you know, in most movies, I would say, sure, blind luck isn't a great way for your heroine to kind of, you know, survive a situation.
But it would also feel like a disservice to all the really brilliant women who didn't survive. You know, sometimes it is just blind luck.

Well, and the truth of it is, he did go for so long,

and he was successful at taking the lives of so many different women

that to say, oh, like, this person, to your point, outsmart him.

Oh, she just needed to outsmart him.

No, like, it's the one person in the parking lot who just, like, scares him away,

and you're like, and you just thank your lucky stars.

Like, why me and not the other person? the parking lot who just, like, scares them away. And you're like, and you just thank your lucky stars.
Like, why me?

And not the other person.

Completely.

Completely.

Which is wild.

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So you said that your true crime fascination, you had been into it before, but always like for me, I always say like crime junkies are born, not made. Like I, since I was little, like when did it start for you? Gosh, yeah.
I guess I can't really remember a time that it wasn't there. I mean, you know, this isn't really true crime per se, but I remember sitting in like the dentist's office and they would have those books about like natural disasters or the Titanic or something.
Like there is just something about the grim and the macabre that is always kind of called to me. And so, yeah, that's always sort of been there lurking and then it, you know, ended up being something else for me.
You wrote in your book about you being in New York for the first time, which like when you were like a kid. And I'm like, you were like towing the line.
You were about to be your own true crime story, like running around the city of New York. You were like, what, 10? I know.
I know. I know.
I know. I know.
I know. I know.
Like my, yeah, my parents, because I was a stubborn little child and I was like, I want to be an actress and I want to audition for Broadway shows. And, you know, they worked full-time jobs.
And so they drove me to New York for a couple auditions. And then we're like, girl, if you really want to do this, you need to figure it out.
So my brother and I, he was like two years older than me. He and I would go down on like a Greyhound bus and like just audition for stuff in New York City, which, yeah, I don't know.
There is like an overconfidence and a trust there that I think also comes from growing up in a place where I grew up in Maine. And, you know, like no one locked their doors at night.
When I moved to L.A., God, I really am like a walking true crime. This is awful.
No, when I moved to L.A., my roommates were constantly having to remind me to lock the door. Girl.
I just wouldn't lock the door. Just wide.
Yeah, just wide open. Because also, in Maine, if you lock your car door at night, it'll freeze over.
So we don't lock anything, girl. I mean, I lived in Indiana, and it's not wild out there, but we had ice.
That's really crazy. It's crazy.
But I the time when you're like, to go back to what we were just talking about, like, I remember I went to Vegas when I was like 22. And like, me and my roommate just like we like didn't want to pay for a cab.
So we like caught a ride with a guy who had a hook for a hand. And I'm like, you're not just true crime.
You're like a creepy ghost story. That's like a classic campfire ghost story.
I don't know. But yeah, I'm like walking down alleys.
And it's like the stuff that it truly is luck. Yes.
Like sometimes it is truly just luck that saves you. It's a miracle we're both here today.
No, completely. That's absolutely right.
So how did you, were there certain things that you pulled from your own life? Like situations you've been in where you felt like that? Or like, how did you even begin to prepare for this character? Yeah. So, I mean, there are things in the movie that are like, there's a couple little Easter eggs.
But, you know, for example, my character, there's that scene in the opening when we first meet my character where I'm having like a very bad audition. Oh my God, I love that.

And the casting directors are, yeah,

and they were so funny.

They were so wonderful in the day.

And while we were shooting it, I was like,

hey, will you guys do this?

Like, we just say these couple lines with me.

I'm probably going to cut it, but I don't know.

It might be interesting.

Where they ask me if I'm willing to do nudity.

And then this guy makes a very,

like very specific and weird remark about my body and that happened to me verbatim when I was 19 yes verbatim in an audition yeah crazy absolutely crazy so there's also a degree I like I want the version on Netflix where like it pops up you like actually happened yeah yeah yeah oh. Yeah.
No, but like there's also a degree to which I really had fun making a period piece and like, you know, playing up the kind of 70s of it all. But also, like some of this stuff happened not that long ago.
You know, like some of the little like juicy little tidbits where you think, well, no one would say that now. And I know, you know, 19 was not recent for me.
But yeah, it was not like relegated to the 1970s. Like it was five minutes ago.
Holy crap. Yeah.
There's also like, this is dumb, but there's a sign that's on the door when I'm about to go out on stage that says, like, check your lipstick. And that's like that's backstage at talk shows, that stuff of like last chance to check your makeup.
That's like written under the mirror that's right before you go out into like live TV. So, yeah, just like a bunch of little Easter eggs like that.
I like how do people know that, though? Like if they don't know the bits, like this is all the insider baseball I want to know. Well, I guess like, you know, you mostly get away with it by not saying it.
But now I'm saying it on a big podcast. So I'm obsessed.
Well, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? I'm obsessed. Stay mad.
So how do you when you think about being in something like this for was it really six weeks? Like, yeah, well, yeah, I mean, I was like thinking about the character for two years, but then like was, oh God, I'm responsible for all of it for like six weeks. And then you have about six weeks of like hard prep.
So you're like finding the locations and actually like really mapping out the movie. And then we filmed for 24 days, which is not enough time.
Oh my God. You did that whole thing in 24 days? Yeah.
Yeah. Yes.
That's intense. It was a lot.
It was a lot. It makes me hot just thinking about like how much we were running around.
Is that normal? No, no. Oh my God.
No. Um, I it's normal for like teeny movies that take place in one location.
But yeah, it was a lot. But I also, I think I am like maybe a little bit of an adrenaline junkie because I would, I was like, oh, my favorite animal is me when I'm, when the schedule is slightly behind.
Where like the way that like I get a weird rush of dopamine where I'm like, we're going to finish this day. We're going to get every shot that we need on this day.
God damn it. So it's, like, very exciting.
How did you think about coming off that? And, like, but in more specifically, like, even out of the space like that you're kind of living in like a dark world for a while.

Yeah.

Do you take a break from it?

Do you have like a true crime detox?

Or are you ready to like jump back into the next true crime project?

God, I think that, you know, like when I would go home for the day, I would probably just put something like mindless on YouTube, like something like upbeat or something. What's your mindless? What is your guilty pleasure right now? This is very silly, but I think that at the time that we were filming the movie, I didn't know of the Try Guys, but when we were filming the movie, the Try Guys had like a infidelity scandal thing.

They're like YouTubers.

I was like, what's a Try Guys?

I don't know.

Well, that was my point.

And so I was like, wait, what is this?

And I like watched a couple of videos and I was like, I don't get it.

But then I started watching it and it was like, okay, this is fine.

This is just like guys being silly.

And I don't know, one of them like cheated on their wife, so fuck that guy.

But, you know, I don't know, whatever.

So I would just like put that on as background noise to fall asleep to the try guys are putting

you to sleep at night I know I know it's like the most random rabbit hole to just be like find this

because I like can't even think about like finding like oh what's my nighttime no you know comfort

show I was like this this is it I don't have that I know a lot of people they say it is like a

comfort thing to watch the same thing over and over again it drives me nuts oh really I can't

watch the same thing over not even like the office you don't have like a show like that

Thank you. I was like, this, this is it.
I don't have that. I know a lot of people, they say it is like a comfort thing to watch the same thing over and over again.
It drives me nuts. Oh, really? I can't watch the same thing over.
Not even like The Office? You don't have like a show like that? That you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll just throw it on? No. I think I'm broken.
I don't know. Like everyone's like, yeah, I've just got my, I don't.
Wait, do you watch any movies like more than once? Because Rebel Wilson has this thing. She has never seen a movie more than once.
Never, not once. She says her favorite movie is A League of Their Own, and she has seen it twice in her life.
That's her favorite movie. That's crazy.
I think I've seen maybe some movies, well, my daughter's movies aside, I've seen movies I like, like, tops two times. I cannot rewatch.
Like, I know it's going to happen. There's no— Someone needs to study your brain and Rebel Wilson's brain and figure out what's happening there.
Because honestly, I kind of wish I was more like that. Like, I wish I was more like, yeah, I'd want to watch something new, something new.
And then there's just like a laziness thing where you're like, oh, whatever. I've heard it's like a comfort thing.
Like, you know what to expect. Like in a world where everything's crazy and you got a zillion things things coming at you like the comfort of like knowing exactly what's coming next.
I guess that's probably it. I don't know.
For me it might just be truly like down the middle laziness because I'm like I just can't think of anything else to watch so I'll just re-watch 30 Rock. Fine.
Oh I love 30 Rock. I know it's so good.
Okay that's fair. I uh my I'm like very into I always said I was not a, but I'm, like, doing the love is blind thing right now.
So good. Are you watching this season? Okay, I just started it.
Oh, my God. I'm, like—I think I'm—I got to, like, the first reveal.
The, like, Taylor and—what's his face? I don't know. Whatever.
Oh, don't—no, don't—I can't even look at it. I can't even look at it.
I can't even look at it. I can't even look at your facial expression because it's going to get everything away.
I was literally like, I was texting Kate nonstop. I was like, I felt like I was like live tweeting, love is blind, but only to her.
Totally. You've got to have that friend though to be like, I'm going to watch this thing and you have to watch this thing so that we can text about it.
Oh, I love it. So do you think you'll do another true crime thing? I would, I mean, I would be really, really open to it.
I think that it's really fertile ground psychologically. So I don't know.
Well, as I'm saying it, I'm also like, I've been known like, musical Sally for the last decade.

It's done you well. It certainly wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for me to be like, oh, no, oh, no, I'm pigeonholed as, like, the murder girl.
That would be fine with me. I think at this point you can't be pigeonholed.
I think this whole thing, you, like, proved that you can do whatever you want, which is, like, the best place to be. I wouldn't mind.
I mean, I really found it rewarding to dig in to the case. You know, I was really, really fortunate to have Matt Murphy, who was the prosecutor in Rodney's 2010 retrial as a resource.
He was so, so generous. Like he was not, we did not have the money to pay him, so he was not getting paid.
But he really made himself available and not just as a kind of factual resource, which he often was, but there were times where just speaking to him was so emotionally grounding because, again, he's someone who really obviously prioritizes victims first. And, you know, even just speaking to him would kind of like sometimes like really recenter me on what was important about telling the story.
And Matt introduced me to Detective, well, now the Honorable Craig Robeson, but at the time, Detective Craig Robeson, who, I mean, was the guy who cared enough about what was happening to actually take it seriously. Because, as I'm sure you know, as I know you know, really the story of Rodney Alcala is a story of law enforcement negligence and incompetence, and it makes my body temperature go up every time I even think about it.
Like, it really, really makes me so upset. And I think even speaking to Craig Robeson and Matt Murphy, it was kind of illuminating for me because, I mean, you think about, okay, a serial killer who's been operating for over a decade, this young detective comes on the scene and kind of saves the day and the prosecutor that keeps him behind bars and connects all the dots and, you know, realizes that he's a serial murderer.
It's kind of like a ready-made Hollywood story. But we don't really get into that in the movie because it would also feel really emotionally dishonest.
Yeah. Because when I walk away from, you know, months of research about this case, the feeling that I'm left with is heartbreak and rage.
Yeah. Really rage.
So. They got to be the heroes.
They were the heroes. Yes, and they were, and that matters.
But because so many people Yes. failed before them.
That's right. And they're just as angry about that as anybody.
And that's where, like, I'll always say, I mean, there's the really good ones can recognize and acknowledge when there are bad ones. And I even had a moment where I was like, oh, no, like Matt has really been so helpful to me.
And I am not sure that he knows that like the movie is not pro law enforcement. And I was like, oh, my God.
Oh, my God. Is that going to like bother him or hurt his feelings or is he going to be angry? And then, I I mean he just put out a book and actually one of the chapters is about Rodney and yeah and he's actually going off more about law enforcement than I am in the movie so yeah we can appreciate that for sure I love it and you said Matt didn't make any money but like I was surprised to learn you didn't make any money on this either oh yeah yeah I mean you know I think, you know, I think that, you know, we're both sort of steeped in some really valid ethical questions around true crime.
And I, believe me, this was never a money-making venture for me because, you know, all the resources went to actually just making the movie. But it wasn't until the Toronto Film Festival is where the movie premiered.

And it's this big film festival for someone to buy movies.

And that is, you know, eventually Netflix bought the movie.

But it wasn't until like the week before TIFF that I thought, oh, oh, the movie's going to make money. Like I was just so— Like in it and just like counting your pennies to like pay everyone else.
I went from being like, let me know when the movie happens to like, oh, God, I'm responsible for this. And then I was just making the movie, making the movie, and we just barely made the deadline to get into TIFF.
And then it was like, oh, oh, there's like money going to be exchanging hands. And yeah, like I sort of asked myself the question of like, do you feel gross about this? And I did.
And so, yeah, so I'm not making money off of the movie. The money is going to or has gone to RAIN and to the National Center for Victims of Violent Crime, which was a charity that Matt Murphy, um, recommended to me.
Um, so. We've done work with both of them.
They're like both incredible organizations. Yeah.
I was going to ask you like how you got connected with them, but that's perfect. Yeah.
Yeah. Um, so, yeah, I think that there, uh, it's still a complicated area, but that felt like certainly like the least that I should do.

Well, it's a huge thing to do. And it's a weird place to navigate.
And as someone who's still trying to figure it out that I think these stories have to be told. And I think that there's probably a better way than it's been done in the past.
Right. And it's like, how how do we how do we do right by the people who are in them? How do we.
There's a lot of a lot of heavy questions that I don't know. It's not black and white.
Ethics is never black and white. It's a little gray and it's...
Yeah. And, you know, again, like when I've shown the movie to friends, there are immediately like a handful of questions that they want to know.
Like, wait, wait, wait, did that really happen? Did that really happen? Like, you know, one of the ones that comes up a lot is like, wait, was he really working at the Los Angeles Times in like 1977? And you're like, yep, with his real name, with his real name. Like he'd been in jail for horrible crimes already at that point.
And they, you know, constantly let him out freely based on vibes, by the way, because parole boards were just like, yeah, I don't know. He seems chill.
I think he's reformed. Unbelievable.
Out you go. Men.
And then, yeah, he changed his name in New York for a while, but then he got a job at the Los Angeles Times under his real name. So, yeah.
So, the point being, there's certain things that are like, oh my God, did that actually happen? And then, yeah, there's a degree to which I, you know, the names of a lot of the sort of players in the movie are changed as kind of a nod to the idea that like, I couldn't possibly capture the essence of a real person if I had 100 years, let alone a 90-minute movie. And, you know, as always, the idea was mostly to be trying to reach a kind of larger emotional truth about the danger that we walk around with and all the ways we try to stay safe.
And there are things in the movie that, frankly, feel like they could save a life. You know, I was watching that other Netflix show, Worst Ex Ever, and I was literally like, oh my god, no, do what Monique Hoyt did.
Like, please, please. And she survived.
She's okay, the lady I was yelling at the TV, as though I could like crawl through the screen and back through time. Oh my god, it's just, oh, it's so stressful.
But I think there are like these tidbits that we get from these stories that remain in our subconscious and, um, and can aid us in our most challenging moments.

I think it's, you know, you were talking about earlier trying to like understand and can I, you know, can I gather all these tools to protect myself? And I've always viewed it as, I think I read it in like Tina Fey's book where she was talking about if I can be so hypervigilant, like surely statistically just won't happen to me. Like if I'm always on the way, and I think that's a little bit of like the way that I have viewed it, the way I know a lot of our listeners view it is these stories often happen to us.
And so if we can, you know, and it's not, it's not the shame and it's not them, But it's like, unfortunately, I live in this world where I have to, you know, hold the keys a certain way and check in my back seat and look here and do all the things. And if I can pick up all the tips and tricks, maybe I'm like this much.
Yes. Like less likely to have that happen to me.
I'll take that 2%, even if it's only 2%, because the hypervigilant thing is fascinating because, again, I think the case that really captured me when I was coming out of this really abusive situation was the Chris Watts case. Dude, don't get me started on family annihilators.
I, oh my God. I'm about to like, It, it's like my life dream to like just fund a study at some university because I cannot wrap my head.
And I feel like not nearly enough has been done to understand like how someone goes. And it's not zero to 60.
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I mean, yeah, unfortunately, I could sit here and talk about Chris Boss all day, but we'll just very briefly, like the more that I try, every transcript I read, every recording, every text

message. could sit here and talk about Chris Boss all day, but we'll just very briefly, like the more that I try, every transcript I read, every recording, every text message that he ever sent to anybody that's ever been made available to the public, I just, it's frustrating.
I mean, obviously it's more than frustrating. It's enraging, but.
Did you get really sucked into that one? I, it became, forgot that—I actually, like, forgot that I went from being kind of a casual true crime person to, like, obsessed. And I was reading an old journal, and—I mean, old.
This was, again, right after I left my abusive relationship. It, like, coincided with when I learned about the Chris Watts case.
And I was even aware at the time, because I wrote it down, like, oh, I think I'm sublimating my own trauma and just trying to figure out what happened in Chris Watts' mind so that I can understand what the fuck happened here. Because how did you go from the most loving, the most wonderful, and to so abusive, making me feel crazy, all these things, overnight? Like, what happened? And one of the endless frustrating things about the Chris Watts case is I don't think he would be able to give you insight if you put him in therapy for the next 50 years.
Like, I just—he is so asleep to himself, and his family suffered the consequences of that. Yeah, I think there are certain people who just will put themselves above everyone.
Mm-hmm. But here's the rub, in my opinion.
Yeah. I think that a guy like Chris Watts and a guy like my ex, I think they genuinely experience themselves to be the victims.
I agree. I don't think that they're like, ah, screw it.
I'm going to kill my family. I don't care.
I think that they're in such a state of like this kind of toddler-esque terror that they're just like, no, I just, I'm in a bad situation and I don't want to feel bad. This feels so bad that I'm allowed to do whatever I have to do because this feeling is so bad and I'm such a victim here.
And like that's their only way out. And like the idea of like being caught in an affair makes you feel so bad.
Do you think it's the idea? You annihilate your family? Like I, oh my God. Do you think it's the idea of being caught or that they're in the way of what he thinks is happiness? I know that there's different theories.
Believe me, I know there's different theories about group life. I believe you've been down the rabbit holes.
But I don't know. My theory is that it was less like, no, you're standing in the way of what I want.
And so I'm going to wipe you off the face of the earth. It was more like I need to be seen as a good guy, and a guy who leaves his family is not a good guy, but a guy whose family disappears is still a good guy.
And I can't be the guy that had an affair on my pregnant wife. That is so intolerable to me that, again, everything that is his, his shame around having an affair, which, by the way, that is so intolerable to me that again everything that it was his his shame around having an affair which by the way that is an asshole move but like so what dude you can get like so so so your wife so Shanann's friends think you're a dick so what like she would have gone on to live a beautiful life it's oh my god your daughters and it's like, oh, I don't want to deal with the shame of people knowing that I'm not a good guy.
So I'm enacting that shame on my family. Is it, do you think it's a little bit of when you care more about what the world thinks of you than what you think of yourself? Probably.
I mean, because I can't imagine, like, I can't imagine having to live with that even if everyone thought I was amazing I couldn't live with myself but he would rather

live with him live with the lie I mean I I I think it's just like well I did I think from

somebody like that from many people who've committed terrible crimes I think it's possible

that their perspective is I would have been such a victim and almost like I did what I had to do to, quote, survive. But to them, someone thinking that you're kind of a dick who cheated on his wife is akin to annihilation.
And I mean, I think that sort of plays out in the movie. Like, Rodney was diagnosed with a number of kind of contradictory disorders over the years by different doctors.
Again, I can't know him and I'm not really fucking interested. But I don't know, gun to my head, I'd say just psychopathy and sexual sadism.
And that's really just an accident, right? And statistically, we're not that likely to meet an honest-to-God psychopath. We are incredibly likely to meet people who are emotionally incapable of dealing with their own pain and their own shame and having them enacted on us.
And there's some stuff in the movie that feels more like that. And maybe that's not a perfectly accurate representation of his psychology.
Again, there's part of me that's like, I couldn't care less. Whatever, dude.
You're pathetic. You're rotting in hell.
Fine. But that moment of going, oh, you feel like a victim right now.
Where he's like crying. Exactly.
Stop it. I feel very scared.
And so I know that I need to absorb all this shame for you so that I can actually survive the situation. And I think that that's a situation that women know really well and probably know it on the day-to-day in much, much smaller ways where it's just like, you could ruin my day, you could ruin my month.
Like, you know, there's a whole storyline with my character and her neighbor. And, you know, he kind of pressures me into sex and it sucks and it's a really weird piece of the story.
And yes, of course, for women, there is that question of like, are you going to physically harm me? But there's also the question of like, are you going to psychologically torture me every time I step out my front door because you're my neighbor? And like, I don't know, maybe it's easier for me to just go, okay, I guess we'll have sex. And neither version is good.
It's all awful. But like, these are the choices we're faced with.
What's the one you can live with and live with on a daily basis? And if I stand up in a meeting and say that I think Brian's idea isn't that great, what are the consequences going to be for me around the office? And like making those bargains every day is also part of the fabric of the movie. How did, I don't't know and whatever you are are not comfortable talking about how did you get out of your relationship because I think that's such a good it always is like I think about the takeaways in the movie but I think you're somebody that people would look at and be like she's fucking Anna Kendrick like but you got out of a situation and what did it take for you I wish wish I had a simple answer.
They never are. I know.
I think that those stories are always like really messy and complicated. And yeah, there were kind of steps along the way.
But certainly there was a day that we were having a conversation and, you know, it felt like I was always just trying to kind of, you know, while walking on eggshells, trying to sort of go like, do you not see what you're doing? You know, like, I just thought, like, surely he's reasonable. Surely he can be reasonable and he can see what's happening, you know, which wasn't going to happen.

But, you know, I was obviously holding on to some hope for a while. But there was a day that I really—I almost did a kind of version of the end sequence of the movie where I just stopped pushing back.
And it was almost like I went into, I know that you've been there, that everyone listening has been there, where it's like you almost go, okay, at this point, I think I just need to go into like information gathering mode. I'm actually not going to push back at all.
I'm just going to kind of agree with everything he's saying, with his whole worldview, with all of it, just so that he'll keep talking and I can almost like get myself the information that I'm subconsciously avoiding seeing. And like just listening to him sort of describe where his like worldview was coming from or like his mindset was like, oh, no.
Like it was just kind of so much more illuminating than any, you know, argument that we'd had because it really was like, okay, I'm creating a really, really safe space for you. And you're talking crazy, friend.
So yeah, that's when I like, we went into couples therapy the next session. And I was like, I think we need to cut contact for a while.
And a while was many months. But, but, you know, then it, you know, it was messy, it's complicated, whatever.
And then, yeah, it was done and I put his stuff in storage and that was that. Do you still have a weird storage locker somewhere? No, no, no.
I actually— I would have liked to burn it down a thing. You know what's funny? There are so many times where I'm like, I should have— But then I'm like, that would have been a gift to him.
Oh, yeah. He would have eaten it up.
I don't even know who we're talking about playing the victim oh baby he would have been well I love it and I thank you for ending on that story because I do I think it's so important when talking about the stories talking about the shame all of it like it feels I think people are waiting for like these big moments or like the actual like physical abuse or all these big things when it's like it's in their daily life and it and it if relationships aren't making you better and making you happy like that's abuse in and of itself um so thank you I just think that was really beautiful and I like haven't paid attention to my notes I think we're out of time. I'm on your schedule, so I don't know.
Do you, I think you're the one on like this giant press torpice amazing movie that's coming out. Do you want to tell everyone where they can watch it, when they can watch it? So it's on Netflix starting October 18th.
So I think that's probably already happening, depending on when this airs. And yeah, it's's Woman of the Hour, and it's on your Netflix right now.
You guys, run, don't walk. It is truly amazing start to finish.
You guys are going to love it. And if you make it through the first five minutes, you've made it through the worst of it.
These are crime junkies. There's like no disclaimer needed.
You guys, this is made for you. You're going to love it.
Enjoy it. Thank you so much.
This was so fantastic. Thank you for my merch.
Oh, you're so welcome. All right.
Well, thanks again to SiriusXM for letting us hang out in their studio. I feel like a real grown-up, big kid podcaster now.
And don't forget to follow the show. Add it to your library.
You can also follow Crime Junkie. And we're going to have brand new episodes the last Friday of every month of CJF.
But if you can't wait until then, you can hear

Crime Junkie radio on the SiriusXM app for your 24-7 true crime fix. You can follow me, Ashley

Flowers, on Instagram and Ashley Flowers Crime Junkie on TikTok. And make sure you also follow

Crime Junkie at Crime Junkie Podcast. I'll see you next month.
I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation half as much as I did. Anna was truly, you guys, they say never meet like your heroes are the people you love.
She is a pleasure. She's everything you think she would be in person.
I always love knowing that. She's truly a treasure.
So make sure you follow her. Go watch the movie.
And please, please, please go check out the episode serial killer Rodney Alcala if you want to hear the crime junkie version of that story. It's linked right in the show notes.
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