MURDERED: Kristin David

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I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt.

Speaker 1 And we are back with the details of a case that I ever so briefly touched on last episode.

Speaker 1 Now, if you missed that one, don't stress, you don't need to hear it to jump into this one today, but I highly recommend taking a listen later because the victim in today's case always gets lumped in with a group of missing and murdered people from this small Pacific Northwest area that authorities and community locals believe were all killed by the same man.

Speaker 1 But this case has always been the outlier because of how this young woman was found, dismembered and in garbage bags floating in the Snake River. The thing is,

Speaker 1 I think she very well could be a victim of a serial killer, just not the one we talked about last week.

Speaker 1 I've been tracking a new man who somehow kept turning up in the same areas as dismembered women in the 1980s. And I want to bring crime junkies in on the investigation because I need your help.

Speaker 1 So listen to the details of today's case closely. And then I need you to reach out to me if you know of any local cases in your area or beyond with a similar MO.

Speaker 1 Because I've already got at least five on my radar, but I can't shake the feeling that there is more.

Speaker 1 But let me start with the University of Idaho student whose story came well before the Idaho Four that you heard two weeks ago on this show. This is the story of Kristen David.

Speaker 1 In late June and into the first couple of days of July, 1981, police in the Lewis Clark Valley, right where Washington and Idaho meet, are getting a flood of calls in response to local news of a missing co-ed from the University of Idaho.

Speaker 1 22-year-old Kristen David was on summer break.

Speaker 1 And while she was going to be staying with her sister in Lewiston, Idaho, she wanted her bike and like a couple of other things that she'd left behind at her campus apartment.

Speaker 1 So on June 25th, she had a friend drive her the 30 miles or so back to Moscow, Idaho, so she could get her things. And then she was gonna actually bike back the next morning on the 26th.

Speaker 1 I mean, the ride was mostly downhill. It would take her maybe three hours, easily doable for Kristen.
Except Except she never made it back to Lewiston.

Speaker 1 Both her and her bike just vanished somewhere along the long stretch of Highway 95. Now, it took a few days for police to consider foul play in Kristen's case.

Speaker 1 But as news of her disappearance made its way to locals, plenty of people were calling in sightings of her from the 26th. Some were innocuous, just saying that she was biking alone.

Speaker 1 But those kind of helped pinpoint how far she might have made it before she disappeared. But other sightings were more ominous.

Speaker 1 And over and over again, police were hearing about a man and a mysterious brown van that may have been with Kristen on the side of the highway.

Speaker 1 Now, these sightings differ a little bit based on who comes forward.

Speaker 1 Like, for instance, one man says that he saw the brown van parked on the side of the road and a woman who looked like Kristen was loading her bike into the back of it with help from this man.

Speaker 1 They said she didn't look distressed, so he didn't stop or do anything or whatever.

Speaker 1 Then another witness named James claims to have seen a similar looking van pulled over to the side of the highway close to this town called Genesee, which is just north of Lewiston.

Speaker 1 And in this sighting, the driver was standing outside on the driver's side, and a young blonde woman matching Kristen's description was standing towards the rear of the van and the bicycle was like laying in the weeds.

Speaker 1 Based on the scene, he assumed that the girl had some kind of accident and that this man was helping her.

Speaker 1 Although James says that he saw a shadow and two feet on the opposite side of the van, like there was someone else on the other side that he just couldn't see.

Speaker 1 And he said he didn't stop because, again, he thought this guy was already stopping and helping and, you know, nobody would need him.

Speaker 1 So being 1981, as police start getting a flood of these vague descriptions, they begin bringing people in to put them under hypnosis, hoping to get more details about this mystery van or ideally the license plate.

Speaker 1 All of the witnesses agree that the brown van was sporting an Oregon license plate. And a few under hypnosis can remember some of the letters and numbers.

Speaker 1 Like James says that the last two digits were 3-7.

Speaker 1 And that's backed up by another witness who says the plate had the numbers 7-3-7.

Speaker 2 Were any of them able to describe the driver?

Speaker 1 Yes, they were, and not any better under hypnosis, but like in their initial statements, they all give this similar-ish description.

Speaker 1 One witness who was driving past says this guy had like this full kind of shaggy beard. Another describes this guy as quote unquote grubby, whatever that means to that person.

Speaker 1 And James comes in with the most detailed description, describing this man as approximately 30 years old. He's a white guy, 5, 10 to 6 feet tall.

Speaker 1 He said he had a husky build, maybe if you had to guess 175 to 180, with a trimmed beard, brown hair, and wearing a brown and white checkered shirt and army type khaki pants.

Speaker 1 Although, as detailed as that was, I feel like it's worth noting that James's story changes some over time. Like for instance, he gives two statements shortly after Kristen went missing.

Speaker 1 In the first, he mentions seeing the feet under the van like someone else was on the other side. But then in the second one, he doesn't mention any other person.

Speaker 1 And then the story he tells years later, when he participated in an episode of the series Cold Valley, it changes like more drastically, I think.

Speaker 1 At that point in 2018, he says that he was driving past and he spotted this brown van, but now Kristen wasn't standing up. She was laying down in the grass next to her bike as though she had been hit.

Speaker 1 And then he says he sees the driver, the one man, getting out of the van, walking back towards where Kristen was laying, and this dude was smiling.

Speaker 2 And there's no mention of any of these details before.

Speaker 1 No, and our team even tried reaching out to James, but we couldn't get through. So

Speaker 1 I kind of wonder if what he saw in 81 morphed into something more sinister in his mind, especially after July 4th, when people finally realized what happened to Kristen after she went missing.

Speaker 1 A little over a week after witnesses spotted Kristen on the side of the road with that bearded man and brown van, this guy who is spending his 4th of July fishing on the Snake River spots a black garbage bag in the water near the riverbank.

Speaker 1 And it's unusual enough that curiosity gets the best of him and he looks inside. And that's when he sees parts of Kristen David.

Speaker 1 And then downstream, there is another one of these same black trash bags.

Speaker 1 So he calls police who over the course of that evening and the next morning collect five bags in total containing parts of Kristen's new dismembered body.

Speaker 1 Though according to an article in the South Idaho Press, it would take five days for them to confirm her identity officially.

Speaker 1 Now, there was very little evidence to work with when they removed each part one by one from the bags.

Speaker 1 I mean, they couldn't tell exactly when she had been killed or how long she'd been in the water, but Detective Jackie Nichols with the Asotin County Sheriff's Office told us that investigators believe she had likely died either the day she went missing or very shortly after.

Speaker 1 Kristen's body showed signs of skin slippage, which is like a natural part of decomposition, but it is slowed down when a body is in the water.

Speaker 1 So according to my research, it can take as little as 24 hours for this to happen after a body is placed in water.

Speaker 1 Although there are like a ton of different factors that can impact this, so the working theory is that she was killed and then dumped relatively quickly.

Speaker 1 And then what probably happened is the bags sank to the bottom of the river before surfacing and then being discovered on the fourth.

Speaker 1 And all of that to say, investigators then were left with little hope of collecting any biological evidence.

Speaker 1 And none of her personal effects, like jewelry or anything else, was found on her body either. And it's interesting.

Speaker 1 I do see a note in the files that we have seen that says she had a wristwatch that she was known to wear and that that watch was located, but I'm not sure where it was found.

Speaker 1 Like, was it with her remains or did they go back to her apartment or something and find it there? I don't know.

Speaker 1 But there was one clue left behind by whoever wrapped Kristen and put her in those bags. Each body part was wrapped in newspapers.

Speaker 1 And they realized that the newspapers were from four different issues of the Lewiston Morning Tribune.

Speaker 1 They were dated April 7th, April 17th, April 19th, and April 24th, which to me is interesting because it's not like someone just found one random paper.

Speaker 1 Like, it really is more of a series of papers as though the killer used the ones that had been delivered to their home. Whatever was around.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 And sure, there are thousands of other scenarios where these could have been picked up or found or whatever. But I mean, think about it.

Speaker 1 This person had to have somewhere to go to dismember Kristen in the first place.

Speaker 1 They're going to go somewhere that they know, somewhere that's private, that they are familiar with and feel comfortable in.

Speaker 2 Well, and so familiar that they may get the daily paper there.

Speaker 1 That's my thinking. Because nothing about this feels sloppy or rushed.
This person took their time to do exactly what it is they wanted to do to her.

Speaker 1 I mean, her dismemberment is described as almost surgical. Like whoever did this either has medical knowledge or has done this before.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 And there were also signs of mutilation on her body and some sort of muscle or tissue in her mouth.

Speaker 2 Do we know anything about her cause of death?

Speaker 1 So transparently, yes. So we obtained some of Kristen's files through a FOIA request.

Speaker 1 And there is documentation of her cause of death and other injuries she sustained, but Detective Nichols has asked that we don't publicize that information.

Speaker 1 While she isn't the lead investigator on Kristen's case, she has done a lot of work on it, and she thinks that it would be best not to get into that in detail.

Speaker 1 And then we couldn't get in contact with the actual lead investigator at the FBI, and their office wasn't willing to answer any of our questions.

Speaker 1 So, just out of respect for Detective Nichols' request, we're not going to get into that. But to answer your question, yes, we know, and investigators do know.

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Speaker 1 I told you they discovered five different bags in the Snake River. They found her head, her torso, both arms.
Some of them were double bagged.

Speaker 1 And then her left leg and hips and buttocks were found all connected, but not in a bag.

Speaker 1 Now, the upper part of her right thigh was also recovered, but I can't tell from the reports if that was in a bag or not.

Speaker 1 But what I'm getting at is when all is said and done, when the whole shore had been searched and investigators were ready to pack everything up, the rest of her right leg, so we're talking everything from the knee down, was never found.

Speaker 1 Never recovered. What? Could searchers have just missed it? Possibly.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's one report I saw in the case file that briefly mentions seeing a similar looking black trash bag floating like way out in the middle of the river.

Speaker 1 And since the waters were choppy, no one could get to it before it disappeared. So maybe that's where her missing leg ended up.

Speaker 1 But also, I don't see any reports of that turning up later or being found by anyone else. And so I can't help but wonder, could the killer have kept it?

Speaker 1 And you'll see why I asked that question a little bit later. So it's not just me being like, wild crime monkey theories.
It really is the question of could this be part of his MO?

Speaker 1 And that remains to be seen. So despite a thorough search of the shoreline, nothing else is recovered.
And there's still the question of where her body went into the river.

Speaker 1 And detectives here are in luck because They're soon contacted by a woman who says that she and a couple of others found two separate stains of what looked like blood on the railing of a bridge a few miles upstream from where Kristen's body was found.

Speaker 1 So investigators go check it out and the spots are still there. And it may be because of this that investigators start theorizing that Kristen's body was dumped off this bridge into the water below.

Speaker 1 And then two witnesses even come forward later stating that they saw what looked like a dark van. parked on that bridge, possibly on the same day that Kristen went missing.

Speaker 1 Now, these witnesses didn't actually see anything suspicious. They just said that the driver of the van sort of matched the description that they've been working with.

Speaker 1 And the guy didn't look happy that someone had seen them. But it's not like this witness actually saw this person throwing bags over the railing.

Speaker 1 And I could talk to you about who saw the spots and when they saw them and go around in circles, but I'm not going to build you up only to bring you down because samples of that maybe blood are collected, later tested, and it's determined to not even be blood at all.

Speaker 1 It doesn't mean that someone didn't still use that bridge to put the bags in the water. Doesn't mean it it didn't happen on a tight timeline.
Right. But this doesn't offer any kind of proof.

Speaker 1 Like they're right where they were before.

Speaker 2 Did they ever find her bike or pieces of her bike or anything?

Speaker 1 No, not her bike, not her clothes, not even some of the personal items that detectives learned she would have most likely have had on her, like her checkbook and her coin purse.

Speaker 2 When you say coin purse and I'm thinking of a serial killer, it feels like one of those things that he would keep as like a trophy or a souvenir.

Speaker 1 It depends on the difference, right?

Speaker 1 It depends on what he would have done with it, if I remember correctly like trophies i believe are the kinds of things that killers would give to someone else they can see them wearing it or holding it like that's what they get off on souvenirs they kind of just keep tucked away okay but still i could see him keeping something little like a coin purse or a checkbook but something big like her bike i feel like that would be hard to like hide away.

Speaker 2 It would, it would be like noticeable.

Speaker 1 I know, in my mind, like throwing it in the river would have been easy. But I mean, unless they totally just missed it, like they searched that river.

Speaker 1 It's not there, which makes me come back to the idea that it could be this guy's home or something like that, wherever he did the dismemberment.

Speaker 1 Like, did he have a place that he could also store the bike to keep that out of sight?

Speaker 2 Do you think there's a chance that he could have done everything in like the back of his van? Like this van keeps like popping up in these like sightings and stuff.

Speaker 1 So it's a possibility. And actually, Detective Nichols said something interesting that might play into this.
So she said that whoever dismembered Kristen had some struggles with her legs.

Speaker 1 Like one of her upper thighs, either the right or the left, I'm not sure which one had some cuts that indicate that her killer had trouble dismembering her, like I said.

Speaker 1 So to kind of spell it out for you, Kristen essentially was taken apart at the joints, almost like a hunter would break down an animal. So

Speaker 1 maybe he's in an area where when you have a limb as big as a leg, like you have issues, right? That's totally possible.

Speaker 2 Like if you're in a van.

Speaker 1 Right. Or one one of the reasons he might have had trouble is if you think about a hunter who's used to animals, on humans, the hip joint is higher than you might think.

Speaker 2 Which would indicate a hunter versus someone with like medical knowledge, knowledge of the human anatomy. Like, that's not a mistake that they would make.
They would know that it sits higher.

Speaker 1 Right. So again, is he like cramped for space or did he not know where to go in at initially? And again, this is just a theory.
And I feel like hunters in rural Idaho are a dime a dozen.

Speaker 1 So who knows if it even means anything? But regardless of the killer's background, the search for that van is all the more important.

Speaker 1 So based on what they know from witness sightings, detectives come up with a list of plates and vehicles that they want to check.

Speaker 1 I mean, they literally went to the DMV in Oregon, pulled registrations. for every Oregon plate ending with a variety of combinations of the reported number 73737 whatever.

Speaker 1 And then from there, they whittled it down to just brown vans. And then they individually followed up on every single one.

Speaker 1 It was time consuming and difficult and would have been worth it had anything come of it. But unfortunately, check after check, they don't get anything.
They don't get any suspects that seem to stick.

Speaker 1 And even though they do a bunch of searches of nearby houses and sheds and barns, basically anywhere that could hide a very bloody crime scene, that turns up nothing either.

Speaker 1 They aren't out of things to do yet, though. A composite sketch is created within the first few days of the investigation based on those witness reports.

Speaker 1 And they're fine, but not any more helpful than the vague descriptions we already have of a white guy with brown hair. But like, forget what this guy looks like.
Who is this guy as a person?

Speaker 1 Like a profile. I love a good profile.
This one delivers. I'm assuming it's made by the FBI, though the document doesn't actually say, but we know that they've taken over the case now.

Speaker 1 And back in the early 80s, local law enforcement agencies were not profiling. Like that was the feds.
So they put together this 20-point psychological profile of this guy.

Speaker 1 White male, probable age 21 to 28 years.

Speaker 1 Living alone or with a girlfriend or mother. Mother would dominate family if family is together.

Speaker 1 Considered intelligent, but is an underachiever, i.e., others think he could do much better than what he does.

Speaker 1 High school education or better.

Speaker 1 Number six, probably owns a late model vehicle, of which he is proud of, cruises the area in his vehicle, which, side note, we saw that before. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It was in the Eve Wilkowitz case that we did, like, I feel like it was a year or so ago at this point for a fan club. And I always wonder where that comes from.

Speaker 1 Like, what about a crime tells you that someone's into late model cars or has one?

Speaker 2 Well, yeah, and if I'm remembering correctly in Eve, we thought that like maybe that had been connected to like a witness sighting or something.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but that was a guess. And like here, I don't see any witness statements about a car like that.
I mean, granted, I might not have everything, but I don't know.

Speaker 1 I'm kind of just wondering if they think certain types of people are drawn to those. And does that say anything about the larger population who owns these? Like, BAU, call me.

Speaker 1 I have follow-up questions, but let's keep going.

Speaker 1 So, number seven, probably has an arrest record or discipline record going back to teen years. The record would be for crimes against persons, i.e.
assaults, fights, violent type acts.

Speaker 1 Has a hard time keeping a job as he considers himself better and more knowledgeable than others, therefore will not follow directions and orders of others.

Speaker 1 Considers himself superior in intelligence to law enforcement officers, therefore, he will follow the investigation and might leave clues as the investigation progresses to aid police.

Speaker 1 might return to the crime scene at later dates to fantasize and relive the situation crime scene occurred in one area and an attempt to hide body and evidence made by taking it to another area all in the general area of where subject lives we're on to number 10 now souvenirs will be kept for fantasizing which might include body parts

Speaker 1 clothing and other personal items victims had at the time. So when you were talking about coin purse, yes, possibly.

Speaker 2 When you were were talking about the lower part of her leg.

Speaker 1 Also, possibly. This is what I was saying, I was obsessed with.
Photographs might have been taken of the body to help relive the event at a later date.

Speaker 1 Victim will not be known to subject, but was available when the situation presented itself.

Speaker 1 Death probably came quickly to victim, no torture. There might not have been any sexual intercourse before or after death.

Speaker 2 Oh, question: Was the mutilation to Kristen done pre- or post-mortem?

Speaker 1 Likely post, according to Detective Commission.

Speaker 1 Number 14, the incident is psychosexually satisfying to the subject, although an impersonal event. The victim means nothing to him and he has no remorse over what he did.

Speaker 1 Subject will have lived in the area for a period of time and will be known to various people in his community.

Speaker 1 Bite marks or stab wounds commonly made after death.

Speaker 1 17.

Speaker 1 Weapon used to cause death will normally be his own as opposed to a weapon of opportunity. We'll keep the weapon for a period of time.

Speaker 1 As this fantasy wears off, will kill again and more frequently as time passes. Will have fantasized about what he would do to a girl if the situation presented itself, i.e.
premeditated.

Speaker 1 And when the situation does occur, he conducts himself as he has fantasized. And finally, number 20,

Speaker 1 might have left the area after the killing, moving to another town and establishing himself, job, et cetera, before he will kill again.

Speaker 1 So, who fits this psychological profile? Yeah. There is no one perfect fit, but there are a ton of men who have come across investigators' radar over the years.

Speaker 1 And there are a few that I want to talk about because I swear I've said this a thousand times. It should be a life roll, but I haven't made it short and sweet.

Speaker 1 But this is a reoccurring theme where I'll come into a cold case, one where there are no real suspects it's ice cold and on the surface it looks like there would be no suspects because like no one's talked about any but then you get to see the files and you dig in and it is the opposite i am like how can there be this many people around all the time that look so guilty like they can't all be guilty so like what the heck it has made me start side-eyeing every person around me like if i died like what secrets do you have that would come pouring out and like i mean i think that's also just life rule number one, right?

Speaker 2 You never really know anyone ever.

Speaker 1 Well, then it's life rule 1.1. Like, you never really know anyone ever until their life intersects with a criminal investigation and then there is no hiding.

Speaker 2 Unless you have a bad detective.

Speaker 1 Life rule 1.1. No, no, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1 All that to say, even though the Kristen David case has only publicly been linked to the Lewis Clark Valley murders and disappearances, there were plenty of other highly suspicious people that came on law enforcement's radar.

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Speaker 1 Okay, the first couple of guys that I want to talk about are ones that made a splash for investigators early on, but then fizzled out pretty quickly. So first was George Williamson, aka Buzz.

Speaker 1 Now, Buzz came on police's radar because he actually made a report about another guy that he thought could have killed Kristen. Now, that other guy gets cleared, but Buzz remained on police's radar.

Speaker 1 He lived on the same street as where Kristen was going to stay for part of the summer.

Speaker 1 Plus, he matched both the composite sketches and some points in the psychological profile and was known to be bitter and hateful towards women due to a divorce and custody battle.

Speaker 1 According to Detective Nichols, Buzz also claimed to have done some truly horrific stuff, like disemboweling people in Vietnam when he was deployed there.

Speaker 1 He even had a van, although it was purple and yellow, and mistaking it for being brown when so many people claimed to have seen a brown van seems unlikely.

Speaker 2 Yeah, purple and yellow, quite different.

Speaker 1 Right. But all of that, like, even though it's suspicious, Detective Nichols told us that the FBI has ruled him out.

Speaker 1 Ultimately, they determined that a lot of the claims he made about disemboweling people were actually false. Buzz had been in the military, but he had never been deployed to Vietnam.

Speaker 1 And all those claims of like what he did were just like one of numerous lies that he told.

Speaker 1 Detective Nichols said that while yes, his claims are disturbing, he's also very mentally ill and makes claims all the time that can't be substantiated.

Speaker 1 Plus, that van he owned, he even sold that by the time Kristen went missing.

Speaker 1 So next up, there was Donald White.

Speaker 1 In an interview with police a few years after Kristen's body was discovered, Donald talks about his friend, this guy named Larry Knoff, who he claims he used to grow marijuana with.

Speaker 1 Now, these two guys had a huge falling out, after which Don's children allegedly started remembering bouts of sexual abuse from Larry and a teenager named Travis.

Speaker 1 They also claimed to have seen a woman being trapped in the basement of this other family that Larry allegedly knew and spent time with.

Speaker 1 But before we even go spiraling down this rabbit hole, neither Donald nor Larry were ever really considered legit suspects to begin with.

Speaker 1 Donald talked a big game, but when it came time to actually verify details from his story, he couldn't.

Speaker 1 Based on what I have, there isn't a ton of detail around who owned what type of vehicle and who did or didn't get the Lewiston paper.

Speaker 1 And I think these claims are incredibly concerning, but if those claims could not be verified, like, you know, no, they're there.

Speaker 2 Did they just say Don couldn't verify the claims or did he actually check with Larry's kids and family to try to see if all this was real?

Speaker 1 Well, Detective Nichols told us that Don's ramblings were immensely drug-fueled, she said. And so after just like a brief look, they were like, yeah, no, like this ain't our guy.

Speaker 1 And they just kind of moved on. So that's Don and Larry.
I've spent most of my time digging into someone else. Someone who was a blip on the radar, but maybe you'll see why.

Speaker 1 Like I just am so invested in a second. Let me set the scene.
So, I told you early on that investigators searched for a place that might be the crime scene or where the dismemberment happened, right?

Speaker 1 Cabins, abandoned buildings. They were also searching hotels and motels in the area.

Speaker 1 Well, shortly after Kristen was found, investigators hear from a housekeeper who works at the Sacagawea Lodge in Lewiston.

Speaker 1 She tells them that on or around June 30th of 1981, she went in to clean one of the rooms and inside she found a bloody bath towel and then a bloody hand towel.

Speaker 1 And I'm not talking about, like, ooh, I nicked myself shaving like little dabby dabs. She claims that the larger towel was completely soaked, save for like one corner.

Speaker 1 Now, she couldn't remember exactly which room she found the towel in.

Speaker 1 And when investigators asked for the towel itself, she's like, oh, I passed it on so it could be washed and and then like presumably reused.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was just like, if it's being like that, no.

Speaker 1 This is like a whole side story, but I spent so much time on this.

Speaker 1 I want, I want all of our listeners, if you work in like the hotel service industry, maintenance, housekeeping, I want to know your most horrific story because I cannot fathom.

Speaker 2 This feels like it's got to be up there, but she's so nonchalant about it that she's just like, another blood-soaked towel.

Speaker 1 Can't wait for that laundry. I'm going to start bringing my own towels and sheets and everything to hotel rooms.
I'm like terrified now. Yeah.
That towel went back into circulation.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Um, back on track. Sorry.

Speaker 1 So, okay. So she finds this bloody towel.
Again, she didn't keep it. She sent it off.

Speaker 2 And no one is jotting down the room number. She can't even remember what day it is.

Speaker 1 No, but this is what I'm saying. Like, I think they see some wild stuff.
Like, again, fully blood-soaked towel, like, meh, another day, another dollar.

Speaker 1 Like, and then, you know, police come knocking or she hears about this dismembered body. And it's like, huh, I wonder.
Maybe. And I don't even know if it was them like knocking or

Speaker 1 like her seeing on the news or something that like started this whole thing. It might have been the fact that more bloodied stuff was found at the same motel.

Speaker 2 Okay, what is going on there?

Speaker 1 Bro, I like couldn't tell you. And by the way, this isn't some like remote little highway.
I affectionately call them murder motel, which is exactly what I was expecting.

Speaker 1 This is like a, this is in downtown Lewiston, which is like right by the river.

Speaker 1 river i'm not saying this is like new york city but it's it's like a big hotel people see it all the time yeah anyways so also at this hotel this woman finds blood on a padded suitcase stand when she was cleaning over a week later on july 10th luckily she remembers that it was in room 273 and i don't know if this like jogged memories or what i still don't even know if these are in the same room or different rooms or would anyone have seen the suitcase stand between June 30th and July 10th?

Speaker 2 Like, could it be from the same incidents?

Speaker 1 I don't know because I don't know if anyone stayed in that room, like in between those.

Speaker 1 Or even if they did, did they actually pull that out or did like leave it out for housekeeping to see?

Speaker 1 But police must be at least considering that this is all the same thing and it might be related to Kristen because one,

Speaker 1 They search the room and it yields hair samples that look like they could be from Kristen. And the FBI do tests on those samples.

Speaker 1 According to Detective Nichols, one hair sample was consistent with Kristen's hair type and the others were not. But I mean, we know consistent could mean a lot of things.

Speaker 1 In the case file, the hair is described as having the, quote, same microscopic individual characteristics, end quote. Like, that's not enough.
That's not a DNA comparison, right?

Speaker 1 But that's where the hair testing stood as of 1981.

Speaker 1 Number two, the other thing is they start looking into the room and they specifically look at who stayed in that room right before the bloody towel was found on or around June 30th.

Speaker 1 And they found that on June 29th, the room had been rented to a Pete Madsen. And the registration clerk remembered him somehow.

Speaker 1 She described him as having collar-length blondish hair, maybe like 5'9 to 5'11, most tallish. and weighing between 160 and 180 pounds.

Speaker 1 And she also believes she remembers the car he drove as a yellow Oldsmobile.

Speaker 1 And lucky for police, she even still had his like check-in paperwork, which included an address that he gave in Emmett, Idaho, almost five hours south of Lewiston, and information on the car that he said he had with him, like a license plate number.

Speaker 1 And he even wrote down it was an Oldsmobile, just like the one the clerk thought she saw. Except when they try and look this guy up, that's not real.

Speaker 1 Police matched the license plate number on the registration, not to a Pete Madsen, but to a guy guy named Glenn who lived in Boise.

Speaker 1 And by the way, Glenn doesn't even drive an Oldsmobile, he drives a Ford. But according to what he told police, like he wasn't even in the state when Kristen's murder took place.

Speaker 1 He said that he was in California going to a family's wedding and he had left his car behind. So

Speaker 1 either someone stole it, which I don't really think so because we know it's not a Ford that was there, or at least wasn't seen, or someone stole just the plate on it, or this person just made it up.

Speaker 2 Or maybe it's someone who Glenn knows who just so happened to know his license plate number.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, the possibilities are endless, but with the license plate being a bust, they just decide to focus on the name. And there are a few Pete Madsens that the FBI looks into.

Speaker 1 There's Peter J, Peter M, Peter L.

Speaker 1 Now, it's not clear if like any of these are the Pete Madsen, but based on like identification identifications from driver's license and height and who has connections to where it seems like the FBI tentatively rules out, and that's their quote, tentatively rules out all of the Pete Madsons.

Speaker 1 And Jackie couldn't give us any more information on Pete himself, but of all of them, I think they spent the most time and most is like generous because it was barely any, but spent the most time on Pete M.

Speaker 1 Now, when they looked at the address that was on this registration, right, we know the plate number is bogus.

Speaker 1 The address seems to be bogus too, because this address that was listed for Emmett, Idaho, it doesn't belong to a Pete Madsen. It's registered to someone else.

Speaker 1 However, this someone else does actually know Pete Madsen, who, by the way, drove a late model car, a 1970 Oldsmobile.

Speaker 1 And I'm just going to read from the FBI report because it's super interesting to me. So this person, quote, advised that Pete Madsen resided with him for approximately three weeks during June 1981.

Speaker 1 On June 26, 1981, Madsen was either en route to Lewiston, Idaho, or was staying with them at their home. I'm redacting the name.

Speaker 1 Believed that Madsen left his residence to go to Moscow, Idaho, around 62681 or 62781, but could not recall the exact date.

Speaker 1 He stated that Madsen presently resides at, He gives his address, Moscow, Idaho. Madsen is a student at the University of Idaho working on his master's degree.
And then it goes on from there.

Speaker 1 So long story short, it seems like this Pete Madsen is a real person.

Speaker 1 But like, if he is connected at all, to me, is still a mystery. Though again, the FBI says they have tentatively ruled out Pete Madsen.

Speaker 1 So maybe that's true. But Pete Madsen, whoever you are, I would love to know your story.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't think there's a world world where a bloody suitcase stand thing and bloody towels turns out to be like an uninteresting nothing burger

Speaker 2 thing in this case.

Speaker 1 The one thing I'll say is, so Detective Nichols told us that she doesn't necessarily think what was found on the suitcase stand was blood because there is absolutely nothing on the results of the samples that were taken.

Speaker 1 And she even has some doubts about the housekeeper's story to begin with, because I guess each time she talked to the police, her story just got a little more like conveniently in depth.

Speaker 1 Like first, she doesn't report the bloody towel, then all of a sudden there's a bloody towel and then a bloody suitcase stand.

Speaker 1 And then even later, she said that she saw a man holding a bike on Highway 95. Like it just seems like there was more to the story every single time.

Speaker 1 And it's so specific to Kristen that Detective Nichols wonders if maybe she embellished her story.

Speaker 1 Still, I can't shake it. Like, it's just like, I get these like little spidey sense things sometimes.
I'm obsessed with this whole Pete thing.

Speaker 1 And not because this Pete Pete Madsen guy had anything to do with it. Like everything on that registration seemed to kind of be bogus.
Why? Like, was it really someone named Pete Madsen?

Speaker 1 Or did they just pick like, I mean, they would have had to know that that guy had a friend named Pete Madsen.

Speaker 2 Like there's like so many things that like have to fit perfectly together

Speaker 2 for it to be explained. It seems so fantastical.

Speaker 1 But I'll tell you, this has nothing to do with anything, but this is like one of those crime junkie tangents. So when I got obsessed with this Pete Madsen, I'm like, who is Pete Madsen?

Speaker 1 Where is he at now? Google. Have you, do you have your phone with you? Yes.

Speaker 2 You need told me to keep it with me today.

Speaker 1 You need to just Google Pete Madsen.

Speaker 2 Okay, Pete Madsen.

Speaker 2 Nothing else?

Speaker 1 Just Google Pete Madsen. Okay.

Speaker 2 Ashley, I watched this documentary.

Speaker 1 What are the odds?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I can't even like summarize it, but Peter Madsen has had like a submarine.

Speaker 2 And correct me if I'm wrong, like this journalist comes on and is like interviewing him about the submarine and goes on the submarine for like a ride and then doesn't come back.

Speaker 1 Because Peter Madsen dismembered her.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So Kenna, it's not the same Peter Madsen. Like literally, like the timelines don't add up.
There is no world in which this guy is that guy. Right.
And like the, the...

Speaker 2 Case that I'm talking about with the submarine happened in like the like 2017, 2018. Like very new.
Pretty recently.

Speaker 1 Again, has nothing to do with anything, but what I, the, when I Google and the first thing to pop up is this, I was like, Peter Madsen murderer. Dismemberer? I was like, what are the freaking odds?

Speaker 1 It was so

Speaker 1 odd. But obviously that didn't happen earlier.
And Pete Madsen of 1981 was more of a blip on police's radar.

Speaker 1 They were far more interested in people like Otis Toole and Henry Lee Lucas as they popped onto the radar.

Speaker 2 Oh, what cases haven't they shown up in?

Speaker 1 Honestly, I need to do an actual episode on them someday because I truly don't know what they have or have not been firmly linked to, with the exception of like Adam Walsh, but these dudes were like serial confessors.

Speaker 2 Do an episode. It would just be a list of episodes you've already done.
Yeah, crimes that they confess to that we've already covered and they have nothing to do with. That would be the episode.

Speaker 1 Especially when you have a case where dismemberment was involved, they tend to show, always show up, especially around this time.

Speaker 1 But if you know anything about them, I don't think they fit the profile at all. And there's no point in spiraling here because Detective Nichols told us that they too have been ruled out.

Speaker 1 Now, police did spend some time looking into a suspicious butcher, which I was like, huh.

Speaker 1 Like, again, I know we said we're looking for someone with medical knowledge, but like we talked about a hunter.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and a butcher would like fit into that sort of like knowledge base.

Speaker 1 Especially when you think about the fact that each body part was wrapped in newspaper, like that feels very... butcher-esque to me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like wrapping meat in butcher paper. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So this guy, his name's Mike Spring. He comes on the scene because in September of 1981, he he wrecked his pickup truck, but then left the scene of the accident.

Speaker 1 And when a state trooper found the wreckage, he found several large knives inside.

Speaker 2 Which like might not be suspicious for a butcher or a meat cutter.

Speaker 1 Maybe not. But when they tracked Mike down, they learned that he went by a completely different name.
Oh. Jim Blunk, which turned out to be his real name.
So Mike Spring was just an alias.

Speaker 1 And I'm not sure what exactly made investigators zero in on him at the time. But when he was asked what he was doing the day that Kristen vanished, he claimed to be out of town.

Speaker 1 And although there is nothing in the report explicitly stating that his alibi was confirmed, Detective Nichols told us that they must have confirmed it or found some other reason to eliminate him because she said that he was definitely eliminated.

Speaker 1 And I looked him up because like my biggest thing in these is like, just because something was done a bazillion years ago, if something is still unsolved, maybe like go back and check.

Speaker 2 I was going to say, like, I feel like this is such a situation where it could be like, but did we cross that team?

Speaker 2 Like, how many times have we said, like, well, they must have been rolled out because we aren't talking about them today. And like, that hasn't been the case.

Speaker 1 I've met so many investigators who are working a cold case and the file leaves something open-ended. And I'm like, so how do you know this guy's rolled out? And they're like, oh, well, we just.

Speaker 1 Well, they moved on. He's like, oh, somebody before me did it.
I'm like, yeah, but how? And if you can't say how.

Speaker 2 It's like show your work. Right.

Speaker 1 All that to say, I'm not saying that the FBI has that wrong. I probably don't have a lot.

Speaker 1 But with most of these people, I'm like looking up just to see, hey, has anything happened between 1981 and now that would like stand out? The only record I could find on this guy was like a DUI.

Speaker 1 So you can see a lot was happening in 1981. Lots of men are coming on their radar for nefarious reasons.
But then comes 1982.

Speaker 1 That's when someone comes on their radar. for writing a song.

Speaker 2 Okay, a song feels like a crime junkie first.

Speaker 1 I know, and I love that I still have first with you. I just hate that it's this because this song will make your skin crawl.

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Speaker 1 So, in 1982, there is this student at Washington State University who wrote a song called I Don't Want to Go to Jail.

Speaker 1 And this song had been printed in a program promoting a rugby game. And I have the lyrics, but like, I hope I'm doing a good job at pretending I'm okay.

Speaker 1 I'm like starting to get really sick and lose my voice. And so, if you don't mind, I'm actually, I planned on reading it, but I'm gonna have you read it instead.

Speaker 2 Oh, this is like a proper song. Okay,

Speaker 1 printed. Yeah, okay.
Stop. I can't.

Speaker 2 Ashley, we've talked about this before. You have me read some of the most horrific things on these episodes.
This might take the cake.

Speaker 1 The cake?

Speaker 2 I don't want to go to jail. I don't want to go to jail.
I met a girl and I really had to know her. Only a few ways I could really show her.
I built a fire and threw her up on top.

Speaker 2 And as I walked away, she began to snap, crackle, and pop. Put her in the bathtub, threw in the radio, and as I turned away, she began to glow.
Had her over for dinner, put glass in her food.

Speaker 2 As she began to choke, the blood really spewed. Jabbed a knife in her uterine wall.
Now she can't have any children at all. Reached down her throat, and I pulled out some veins.

Speaker 2 Cracked her skull like an egg and poured out her brains. You guys, I'm only like halfway through.

Speaker 1 It keeps going.

Speaker 2 I took a fork and stuck it in her eye. Now she can't laugh, and by God, she can't even cry.
I took an axe and nipped off all her toes. I took all 10 of them and stuffed them up her nose.

Speaker 2 I took barbed wire and wrapped it round her throat. Threw her in the river just to see if she would float.

Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 I tied her down and plucked out both of her eyes. Smeared her with honey and left her for the flies.

Speaker 2 Threw her in the oven, turned it on to broil, and when I opened the door, she was stuck to the coils. Broke both her legs and I poured out all the marrow.

Speaker 2 Cut off big hunks of her flesh and fed them to the sparrows. Now I'm in jail and I love her oh so much.

Speaker 2 I kept her hand so we could keep in touch. And then there's a little note at the bottom that says, repeat as many times as intelligence permits.

Speaker 1 So the thing is, this, I,

Speaker 1 so this guy, apparently, it wasn't just him that wrote it. He said it was him and a group of his buddies.

Speaker 1 Okay,

Speaker 1 why?

Speaker 2 Why write it? And then also, this was published advertising like a sports game at the school.

Speaker 1 What happened here? Yeah. How are you like, you know, we're just going to like skip over the national anthem.
Let's print this instead.

Speaker 1 Like the 80s were a lawless lawless time and i'm not gonna say this guy's name we looked into him no criminal record detective nichols says that this was just this dude being a dumb kid a really dumb kid i agree i mean like how you have to like i don't know but anyways this guy is one of the few people who actually like picked up the phone and talked to us for this episode he's like listen this was a really stupid thing to do We did it as a joke when I was like drunk with my buddies.

Speaker 1 And I guess he says that like writing rugby songs is some kind of tradition and normally they're more sexual in nature.

Speaker 1 So I don't know if like that was like a justification for what is happening on this page. But he, in the end, like to us, he claimed that he didn't even know who Kristen David was.

Speaker 1 And by the way, that even though this came on police's radar, I know it did, they never actually spoke to him. So they must not have taken this very seriously.

Speaker 1 Now, even though they never questioned him, there was a women's rights group who wrote an article in the paper basically calling him out for all of this.

Speaker 2 Okay, but I'm kind of stuck on the fact that police never even so much as talk to this guy. Like, that seems kind of bongers.
I know.

Speaker 1 He even claims, so I mean, he told us he regrets writing the song, but he says that he didn't even know that his name had been brought up.

Speaker 1 Because, I mean, that's how much it's not like they asked around about him or anything. Like, it never even made it back to him that this song made it to police about this crime.

Speaker 1 But, like, I can't help but see a lot of parallels in this song to the FBI profile, to what we know about the crime scene.

Speaker 2 I feel like you, I hope you heard it while I was reading the lyrics. Like, there are like very direct parallels.

Speaker 1 Right. And, like, sure, okay, the FBI says that he didn't do anything.
You know, he doesn't have a criminal record when we look it up now. All fine and good.

Speaker 1 But, like, you know, my question is, like, who are these people he wrote it with? Like, right.

Speaker 1 I bet they would fit square into this profile too. I have a lot of questions still about this, but I seem to be the only one.

Speaker 1 Now, there are more people like this kid who pop up for weird reasons, but who are either deemed not even worth looking into or who quickly get ruled out. I mean, the case file is full of them.

Speaker 1 But there is one guy who Detective Nichols is still suspicious of all these years later, a man named Harry Hantman.

Speaker 1 Harry was originally arrested for the sexual assault and murder of a young girl in 1968, but he escaped the facility that he was being held at and remained on the run for years.

Speaker 1 And he lived in a remote cabin in Hell's Canyon, Oregon, which is like two hours from Lewiston, Idaho.

Speaker 1 Now, when he was on the loose, they ended up finding out that he committed several violent crimes in the area, including abducting a woman.

Speaker 1 And then he finally gets rearrested in 1993, like he was on the run for a long time.

Speaker 1 So Detective Nichols has always wondered if he could have abducted Kristen, taken her to his remote cabin hours away from Lewiston, killed her, and dismembered her there.

Speaker 1 Detective Nichols even says that Harry was somewhat of a career student, like he would go to various colleges and take classes when he could, presumably even while he was in hiding.

Speaker 1 So it's possible that he could have gone to the University of Idaho where he saw Kristen. We also know that he was a big game hunter and previously had driven vans.

Speaker 1 although it's still unknown if he actually drove a brown van at the time of Kristen's disappearance.

Speaker 1 And unfortunately, he's not around to even ask anymore, as much as Detective Nichols was suspicious of him. He died by suicide in 1994.
So

Speaker 2 I have to ask, because it's kind of the guy who brought us here, does Lance Voss ever show up in any of Kristen's case files?

Speaker 1 So that's what's so interesting to me. No.

Speaker 1 Lance, if you didn't listen to last week, he is this guy that everyone talks about in connection with a lot of the crimes that were happening in this area, disappearances, murders.

Speaker 2 Which is like Kristen gets lumped into in a lot of them.

Speaker 1 He is not mentioned once in what I've seen, which really,

Speaker 1 at least for me, confirms that she's probably not related to the other murders and disappearances in the valley. But for some reason, like you said, she keeps getting lumped in.

Speaker 1 And I think that can cause real harm, you know, like maybe someone hasn't come forward with information because the public has tunnel vision or the public thinks like, oh, police must be thinking this is right.

Speaker 1 They don't think necessarily that he did anything to Kristen. But that is not to say that her case isn't connected to others.
Maybe we're just looking at the wrong suspect.

Speaker 1 Dismemberment is a very specific method. What was done to her body in death was specific.
And this does not feel like something that just happened as a one-off out of the blue.

Speaker 1 There are other dismemberment cases in the Pacific Northwest area around this timeframe. But what if one part of the profile that's wrong is the part about this guy being local?

Speaker 1 And I know there was a part in the profile that suggests like maybe he like knew the area for a little bit.

Speaker 1 Like what I think is like, what if he was local for a minute, say like stationed nearby, but he moved around?

Speaker 1 Because recently I've been looking into a former military man. His specific job in the military was as a medical lab specialist.

Speaker 1 And it seems like wherever this guy traveled, dismembered women showed up. Colorado, South Carolina, Idaho, Wisconsin, Illinois, Georgia.
Dismembered with precision.

Speaker 1 Plastic bags, often left around water, not always.

Speaker 1 Specific ways in which the women were killed before they were dismembered. I'm not going to go into detail on the other cases because I can't say 100% that they are all connected.

Speaker 1 or connected to this man yet.

Speaker 1 But I find it very interesting that this happy looking family man on Facebook in 2025

Speaker 1 was actually charged with murder on a military base in his early years while stationed overseas. He got off on a technicality and continued to serve and be transferred all over the country.

Speaker 1 And by the way, if you look this guy up the way I've been looking up other people to like look at his criminal record, there is not one that pops up. which that's the part I can't wrap my head around.

Speaker 1 I don't know why none of this is showing up, even though I know other agencies have talked to him.

Speaker 1 And also, I found it really interesting that years down the line, his son was later convicted of a brutal murder. And he had some choice things to say about his dad and his upbringing.

Speaker 1 And listen, I know I am being vague, but it is because I can't say much yet.

Speaker 1 I usually don't bring all of our crime junkies in until way later in the investigation, but I actually want to try something new.

Speaker 1 You guys have proven to be an invaluable resource and all of your eyes and ears and brains combined is better than months of my own heads down researching alone, which I'm still not stopping.

Speaker 1 But here's what I need. I'm looking for more cases that could fit into a similar MO.
Cases that happened in the 70s, 80s, 90s, maybe in the early 2000s.

Speaker 1 We're looking for murdered women who were dismembered, found in trash bags, and whose bodies might have showed signs of mutilation.

Speaker 1 Specifically, cases where body parts were cut off in addition to the dismemberment, or cases where even after the remains of the victims were recovered, parts of the limb or part of the victim were still missing.

Speaker 1 The case you're thinking of might just fit some or even all of what I mentioned, but if you know of one in your area that is close to what I said, please email tips at audiochuck.com.

Speaker 1 There is a very real possibility that Kristen's case isn't connected to the military man I'm looking into. But whoever killed her, I have to believe that he did it before or after.

Speaker 1 And whether Kristen is connected or not, people are looking into her case. Detective Nichols told us that testing led by the FBI continues to this day, especially on those newspapers.

Speaker 1 And they wouldn't hate a helpful tip to nudge their investigation along.

Speaker 1 So if you know something specifically about Kristen's murder or someone you think might be worth looking into, reach out to the FBI office in Salt Lake City. Remember the profile.

Speaker 1 He would have been young, sounds like maybe a bit of a narcissist. And there are likely other murders that have popped up wherever he goes.
Maybe he owned a late model vehicle.

Speaker 1 Maybe he has or had a brown van. Maybe he let something slip and you're remembering it now as I'm talking.
If that's you, reach out to the FBI and let us know too.

Speaker 1 This is a story we're actively following and reporting, so we would love to hear from you. Again, that is tips at audiochuck.com and we'll have the FBI's contact contact info in the episode notes.

Speaker 1 You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.

Speaker 2 And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.

Speaker 1 And we're going to be back next week with a brand new episode, but we have some good for you. So stick around for the good segment.

Speaker 1 All right, Britt, we've had quite the month, lots of content. I am ready for a little bit of good news.

Speaker 2 You've got it.

Speaker 1 Oh, this one looks long.

Speaker 2 It's a good one, I think. Okay, I'm excited.
Hi, Britton, Ashley. My name is Lysandra, and I just started binging Crime Junkie four weeks ago.
I'm almost done. You're welcome.

Speaker 2 And I need to join the fan club for more episodes. Yes, you do.
And yesterday, you could have saved my life. I'm 18 years old and an avid user of social media, like many other teenagers.

Speaker 2 I met a guy, I'll refer to him as Jerry, on a dating app a few weeks ago, and we hit it off.

Speaker 2 Jerry was a year older than me, lives in the same city, and even shared a common major for college, communications.

Speaker 2 He asked to meet me at a bar and said he'd be a few minutes late because of a snowstorm. I'm from Canada, so our legal drinking age is younger.

Speaker 2 I sat there for about a half hour until he texted that his car had spun out, but he would be there ASAP.

Speaker 2 I'd been sitting at the bar waiting for him since the bar slash restaurant wouldn't let us get a table without everyone there. A girl came up to me and we started talking.

Speaker 2 She commented on my rings and asked about my taste in music. A classic girl trying to figure out if you're a lesbian move, which I'm by, so.

Speaker 2 We talked for another hour before she invited me to go back to her place and hang out.

Speaker 2 Jerry had texted me about 10 minutes before and said he wouldn't be able to make it because of the snow and damage to his car.

Speaker 1 Oh my god, is this like a fireball situation all over again? Canada edition?

Speaker 2 Since it was a girl, I was totally comfortable and had my guard down. Right as we were about to leave together, some guy a few seats down ordered a fireball shot.
Shut up. And my heart stopped.

Speaker 2 Your episode on the fireball abductions immediately came flooding back to me, and I immediately made an excuse to go to the bathroom.

Speaker 2 I waited for about 15 minutes, and when I walked out, she was gone. It could have been a perfectly innocent flirting girl, but because of you, I didn't take that chance.

Speaker 2 I wanted to share in case other LGBTQ plus girlies wonder if these traffickers caught onto women's suspicions, but realized that another girl would have our guard down.

Speaker 2 So, thank you, Ashley and Britt, for giving me the information I need to keep myself safe. You guys are amazing.

Speaker 1 Ooh, full-body chill.

Speaker 2 Like, this is already a story that I feel like we see a lot in the messages that come through, like, oh, I remember this episode. And like, I feel like it kept me safe.

Speaker 2 But for it to be specific ones, fireball shot was just like, I stopped in my tracks.

Speaker 1 That's wild. And again, like, some people will be like, oh my God, nothing happened.
That's the point. I don't care.
Whatever it was.

Speaker 1 I hope,

Speaker 1 I hope nothing ever happens. I hope we run out of episodes.

Speaker 2 A thousand percent.

Speaker 1 I love it.

Speaker 1 Crime Junkie is an audio chuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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Speaker 4 Have you ever experienced something truly unexplainable?

Speaker 4 A moment that felt almost like a vivid dream, leaving you with a lingering sense of wonder, leaving you questioning everything you thought you knew.

Speaker 5 Perhaps it was a fleeting glimpse of something extraordinary, a chilling whisper in the dead of night, or an undeniable premonition that comes to life.

Speaker 5 I'm Yvette Gentile, and I'm her sister, Rasha Pecarrero.

Speaker 6 Each week on our podcast, So Supernatural, we partner with the one and only Ashley Flowers, host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie, to take you on a journey of the world's most mystical mysteries.

Speaker 1 Ready to explore the unknown?

Speaker 5 Join us every Friday for a new episode of So Supernatural, available wherever you listen to podcasts.