BWBRSA: Online Scams

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Speaker 1 Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

Speaker 2 And I'm Britt.

Speaker 1 And the format is a bit different today. I'm actually just diving right in.

Speaker 1 It was earlier this year, 2024, when a crime junkie and her husband, who we'll call Teresa and Colton, got this alarming voicemail.

Speaker 1 It was from their local sheriff's office asking them to call them back. And I mean, you heard me when I said they're crime junkies, right? Like they don't just hit like the call back button.

Speaker 1 They first look up the number of the sheriff's office to make sure it's legit. And sure enough, the number that called them matched the listed number online for the local sheriff's office.

Speaker 1 So Colton called back and left a message of his own when no one answered. And not even a minute later, their phone rang again.

Speaker 1 It's the secretary at the sheriff's office who transferred him to an officer, Officer Smith. And Officer Smith tells him something really alarming.

Speaker 1 There's a warrant out for his arrest because he hadn't shown up for jury duty. I'm sure that moment made Colton's stomach drop, especially because he hadn't gotten a jury summons.

Speaker 1 But when he told that to Officer Smith, he was told that the police have a jury summons with his signature on it. So I can only imagine how panicked he was.

Speaker 1 And that panic probably only rises when Teresa looks up the penalty for missing jury duty. In their state, it's a misdemeanor.

Speaker 1 So that could mean a fine, it could mean jail time, it could go on his record, all things that they both want to avoid. This doesn't seem possible.

Speaker 1 And although Colton probably listens to the show via his wife, Teresa is the real crime junkie here, even though at the time she wasn't even listening to our show yet.

Speaker 1 So while she's online and like he's on the phone with Officer Smith, she's looking up who Officer Smith is.

Speaker 2 I love her. I am Teresa.

Speaker 1 Yes, I know. Same.
So this girl's like doing her due diligence. And sure enough, there is an Officer Smith that she finds.

Speaker 1 She finds an article from 2014 talking about him being at their local sheriff's department.

Speaker 1 So I don't know what is spinning through their heads, but in my mind, I'd be thinking like the only thing that makes sense is that somehow, some way this summons was maybe intercepted and Colton's signature was forged, which means they have a crime on their hands.

Speaker 1 But like, how do you even begin to solve something like that? Like, they just need to take this one step at a time. And Officer Smith offers a first step.

Speaker 1 He says he's calling to give them a heads up because he noticed that Colton didn't have a record.

Speaker 1 So he's like, listen, I want to give you the opportunity to just come to the sheriff's office on your own. We'll clear this up, which I'm sure was appreciated in the moment.

Speaker 1 You know, they didn't want cop cars showing up and arresting Colton, possibly where their neighbors could see.

Speaker 1 So Officer Smith says, once you come in, I can compare your signatures, clear this whole thing up easy peasy.

Speaker 1 So Teresa and Colton agree to come in, but Officer Smith tells them that they have to stay on the phone with him while they make their way there.

Speaker 1 Something about him now being responsible for them and he needed to make sure that they actually came in.

Speaker 1 So with him on the line, Colton and Teresa start like pulling things together to get ready to go. I mean, it's evening by now and freezing, so they need to put on some warmer clothes.

Speaker 1 And as they're doing that, Officer Smith speaks up and throws a bit of a curveball at them.

Speaker 1 And actually, he says, it's not going to just be a quick trip to the station because once you get here, Colton's actually going to have to be booked and stay in a cell for a little bit unless you can pay his bail preemptively, in which case, we won't have to book him.

Speaker 1 But it sucks because the way it works is that if he shows up, Officer Smith says they have to book him because of the warrant.

Speaker 1 But if they can post the bail before they they come in contact with him, he'll be okay.

Speaker 2 That just sounds like bureaucratic red tape at its finest.

Speaker 1 I mean, it sounds dumb. I've seen our legal system do dumber things.
So it's not like totally out of the realm of possibility. So they're like, okay, yeah, whatever.
Let's just pay this thing.

Speaker 1 Let's get it over with. We'll get the bail money back once this all gets cleared up anyways.

Speaker 1 So Officer Smith brings this other person onto the call who's from like the payments department or whatever. And this person works with the bail bondsman.

Speaker 1 And this person tells them to go to a nearby pharmacy because according to them they could pay the five thousand dollar bail via bitcoin oh no no no no no stop do not pasco do not send five thousand dollars via bitcoin this is not how get out of jail free cards work it's easy to say that on this end of the story but teresa told our team that she and colton felt so off kilter i mean this whole situation was so stressful that they weren't about to do anything that would make their situations worse they weren't going to question the authorities with so much on the line and remember she knew these were the authorities.

Speaker 1 She had looked it up. They didn't go blindly into this.
Like if you do your due diligence, like, what the f, I get it. Do the thing and figure it out later, but like, don't make it worse.

Speaker 1 So they go to the pharmacy, they find the Bitcoin ATM and try to take the money directly from their bank account to buy Bitcoin that they could then transfer. But right away, they run into a problem.

Speaker 1 The transaction gets declined, but that's okay because the payments person on the phone says that they could just withdraw cash separately, then deposit it into a Bitcoin ATM and then transfer it.

Speaker 1 To do this, they actually have to go to several ATMs because they like can't do the full withdrawal. They have a limit on their account.

Speaker 1 And since they had a credit union, they actually have a limit on how much they could even withdraw per day, not just per ATM.

Speaker 1 And what they end up having to tell them is like, listen, we're not going to be able to withdraw the entire $5,000.

Speaker 1 So they get what they could, they send it over, and the rest they were told they could send via Venmo.

Speaker 2 This is not splitting a restaurant bill.

Speaker 1 I know. Now, Teresa and Colton had been running around withdrawing money for a while now while still on the phone with the sheriff's office.

Speaker 1 So by that point, I mean, they're stressed, they're exhausted, they're just like ready to be done with this whole thing.

Speaker 1 But to your point, this request to Venmo the sheriff's office, this strikes Teresa as extra odd. So she even asked, like, do bail bondsmen really use Venmo?

Speaker 1 And the man assured her, because again, the man's with the sheriff's office. Yes, they take money directly out of your bank account so they can accept it.

Speaker 1 And the account that they're directed to looks legit. It had a bail bonds logo, a license number on the profile.

Speaker 1 So Teresa and Colton managed to get even more money sent over via Venmo, but the transaction was marked as pending.

Speaker 1 And I actually had to look up why this was because I've used Venmo before and I've never seen a pending charge, but apparently Venmo will put transactions on hold if it detects that the payment might be suspicious.

Speaker 1 Like if you make a really large payment, that's out of the norm, or, you know, it could be something with the other person's profile, whatever.

Speaker 1 Even with that transaction initiated, it still wasn't close to enough to pay the entire bail. And they could not get any more money out of their bank account then.

Speaker 1 So Teresa and Colton decide just to go to the sheriff's office to try and figure things out. Now, at that point, the payment person hangs up.

Speaker 1 And when they tell Officer Smith what their plan was, his response was surprising. He basically said, you know, tomorrow's a holiday.
Why don't don't I just let you go?

Speaker 1 You can go to the courthouse the day after tomorrow, prove that you all tried to get the money for bail, and then you can just pay the rest and like get a court case started, whatever.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry, what?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it didn't make sense to Teresa and Colton. This kind of goes against everything he was just saying.
But again, like they've been rushing around, they're frazzled.

Speaker 1 So in this moment, they're still a little relieved. Like, okay, fine, it's over.
We can go home. We can get some sleep.
We can figure this whole thing out in a few days.

Speaker 1 So they hang up, but they felt weird about the whole thing. Like it's just sitting with them strange, more than just like, oh, wow, that was wild.

Speaker 1 So once they finally get home and they have like these moments to really slow down and think, they were left with the sinking feeling that the whole thing was all kinds of wrong.

Speaker 1 So Teresa tries to cancel the payment on Venmo since it was still pending. And they try calling Officer Smith back, but no one answered.
So they figured, you know what?

Speaker 1 Let's just call the local non-emergency line just to check to make sure that this was all legit. So they do that.
They go through a dispatcher who told them, you know, we're going to look into it.

Speaker 1 I'll have an officer call you back. And the officer is going to call back from a blocked number.
They were very specific about that.

Speaker 1 No officer is going to be calling you from a number that you can see.

Speaker 1 So eventually an officer calls Colton back and sure enough, there was no evidence of Colton being in their system or not showing up for jury duty.

Speaker 1 The officer told them that bail is always paid in person, never via Venmo or Bitcoin. So whoever they were speaking to, it wasn't the police.

Speaker 2 So they were just out the money?

Speaker 1 They'd been scammed. But get this, this ballsy motherfer calls them back the next day.

Speaker 1 He left a voicemail instructing them to call him so they could, quote, discuss the matter.

Speaker 1 Teresa told our team she wanted to call him just to see if she could get any information out of this guy, like a true crime junkie at heart.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm like, wait, give me the number off.

Speaker 1 I know, I know, but Colton didn't want to risk it. So they didn't.
And this guy never called them back again.

Speaker 1 Now, thankfully, Teresa and Colton's Venmo transaction was refunded, but they never got the Bitcoin money back.

Speaker 1 They lost a few hundred dollars, which wasn't devastating, but Teresa told our team that had they sent over the full 5,000, it would have seriously, harmfully impacted their finances. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Now, after this whole debacle, Teresa told us that she and Colton tried to file a police report online, but every time it just never went through.

Speaker 1 So then they called the sheriff's office twice, left messages, but never got a call back. And even as a last-ditch effort, they sent a contact request on the website, but again, nothing.

Speaker 1 And Teresa's aware, like they're a small department. So, you know, they might be inundated with other requests, but still it was kind of disappointing for her to get that lack of response.

Speaker 1 Now, what strikes me about Teresa and Colton's story is just how sophisticated this whole operation was.

Speaker 1 I mean, Officer Smith had an answer for every question Teresa and Colton had, and he sounded so official, they said.

Speaker 1 In fact, the only time he got flustered or uncomfortable was when Teresa actually thanked him for being so patient with them.

Speaker 1 I don't think he had a scripted response for that, but everything else, Britt, even down to the background noise on their call sounded legit.

Speaker 1 Like it sounded like Officer Smith was actually in a police station. And when the real officer called them back, they were struck by just how similar the background noise was.

Speaker 1 So if you haven't caught on by now, today we're talking about scams. Each of our stories will have a very clear takeaway so you can protect yourself, which is what we're all about here.

Speaker 1 And I know this isn't our traditional crime story, but with the tech these days, these scams are more sophisticated than ever.

Speaker 1 So this is a must-listen episode that you need to share far and wide because with each story, we're going to give you very clear, very practical steps that you could take to ensure that you are protected.

Speaker 1 Your money is protected, your family is protected. And I wanted to find stories that really hit home, stories from people like Teresa and Colton, who are one of us.

Speaker 1 So here's your takeaway from their story. One, if you ever get a call like this, remember the police will never call you to give you a heads up that you've broken the law.

Speaker 1 Two, they'll also almost always be calling you from a blocked number. Three, if you or a loved one actually are arrested, you will always have to pay bail in person.

Speaker 1 Four, if you're speaking to someone who claims to be the police on the phone, it's okay to hang up and call a different number that you can verify, like the non-emergency line, and then ask if you're actually in trouble.

Speaker 1 Don't just go to your recent calls and click on the number to call them back. Actually type in the number or Google the police station and click call on the info panel.

Speaker 1 Again, when I talk about the stuff being sophisticated, you can get numbers to look like they're calling from something else, but if you just hit dial back, it will dial a different number.

Speaker 1 Actually type it into your phone. And again, five, I want to reiterate this: you will not be in more trouble for hanging up the phone.

Speaker 1 So, coming up, Britt and I are each going to take turns and tell you stories. First, from another fan, another story from one of our own employees.

Speaker 1 And the thing that actually started this all for me: scams where our own company was being used to target unsuspecting fans. And I am sure as not standing for that.

Speaker 1 So, watch while I blow up their spot. These are the stories of scammers trying to target you and your loved ones.

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Speaker 2 All right, this second story is from someone who we're going to call Ruth. In 2019, 20-year-old Ruth was where, I feel like so many of us have been in our lives, she was kind of going through it.

Speaker 2 She'd just broken off a long-term relationship, dropped out of college, and she was living at home while she was kind of working random jobs here and there trying to figure out where she was going with her life.

Speaker 2 So many of us have had those moments where we feel lost, like we need to change something, we just need a little bit of time to figure out exactly what and where we want to go.

Speaker 2 Ruth knew she wasn't ready to jump headfirst into a full-time job, so she applied for a variety of part-time jobs, but all to no avail.

Speaker 2 So she started researching kind of alternative ways to make money online, something like Etsy or joining an MLM or direct sales company.

Speaker 2 But as she was researching, she came across a few articles covering stories of college-age young women getting large amounts of money from sugar daddies.

Speaker 2 Now, Ruth had heard of sugar daddies before, but until she was actually looking into it, she thought it was something that was only profitable in big cities and she didn't live in a big city.

Speaker 2 But when she came across the website seeking arrangements, she decided to give it a shot.

Speaker 2 After setting up her profile, she immediately started getting messages and after about a week, she and one man she calls Mr. Seeker had moved off the website and were texting.

Speaker 2 He told her he was in his 30s, worked in tech, and was well off enough to want to give someone like her an allowance. And Ruth felt, you know, relatively comfortable with him, all things considered.

Speaker 2 His age, especially, made her feel okay talking to him because most of the guys on there were a lot older, like her dad's age. So, younger guy, handsome profile pictures.

Speaker 2 This was an arrangement that she was willing to sign up for. And for around a week, things were fine.
They texted, they talked on the phone a time or two, and there weren't any red flags.

Speaker 2 Finally, he asked for her PayPal to send her some money, and when she gave it to him, he sent her a screenshot of a pending transfer to her account for $1,500.

Speaker 2 But then their conversation changed. Mr.

Speaker 2 Seeker told her he needed to be sure she wasn't scamming him, which Ruth actually says she laughed out loud about because there was no way she could ever scam anyone. She just needed some money.

Speaker 2 But he didn't believe her and their conversation turned from flirty to him accusing her of scamming him out of that $1,500.

Speaker 2 So in order to prove herself, He told her to go to the store and buy him a $50 Steam gift card, which if you were like me and were like, what the f ⁇ is a Steam gift card?

Speaker 2 Steam is an online platform where you can purchase and/or play PC games.

Speaker 2 Anyway, to say this was a shock would be an understatement, and she questioned it, obviously, because the whole thing just seemed bizarre.

Speaker 2 But when he sent her another screenshot showing the pending transfer was now $2,500,

Speaker 2 you know, she really didn't feel like she could pass that up. And what was $50 when she was going to be getting all that money?

Speaker 2 Even when he told her, actually get two gift cards, $100 is a small price to pay, right? So that night, Ruth left her house making up an excuse to her parents and drove to the store.

Speaker 2 But by the time she got there, Mr. Seeker was asking her for three gift cards.
Ruth told our team that at that point, she just wanted to get this whole thing over with.

Speaker 2 She felt alone and scared and worried that he would stop talking to her and not send her any money if she refused. He was the only guy she was talking to at the time.

Speaker 2 So if she lost him, she'd have to to start all over with someone else, someone probably a lot older who might make her more uncomfortable than this man.

Speaker 2 And with him texting her every five minutes for the card numbers, she didn't feel like she had a choice. So she goes in the store and purchases $130 worth of gift cards.

Speaker 2 After she got back to her car, she called Mr. Seeker, telling him she'd done it.
And this man completely switched back to being nice to her, telling her he was proud of her.

Speaker 2 And this made her feel better. It was all over.
She'd send him the numbers on the gift cards. The PayPal transaction would go through and it would all be okay.
But that's when Mr.

Speaker 2 Seeker decided to push his luck because he asked her to go in and buy just one more.

Speaker 2 And this, this is when Ruth got mad. Remember, she doesn't have a full-time job.
She got on seeking arrangements because she needed money. She didn't have any to spare, which she told him.

Speaker 2 And just like he had before, he switched back to being mean. He accused her of not being serious about the relationship and the $130 wasn't enough.
She needed to go back in and get more.

Speaker 2 And Ruth spiraled right back down to being confused and frustrated and panicked, especially as she kept checking her PayPal balance and not seeing the money. But every time she asked about it, Mr.

Speaker 2 Seeker gave her a different excuse. Oh, the transfer just hasn't been approved yet.
There must be a delay on your end.

Speaker 2 But after a few minutes of his pressure getting more and more intense, she she just decided to bite the bullet and get more gift cards.

Speaker 2 She grabbed three $50 gift cards and headed to the checkout, but she ran into an issue. The purchase wasn't going through.
Now, thankfully, it wasn't because she didn't have any money in her account.

Speaker 2 The store actually had a policy where you could only purchase a few gift cards over the course of 24 hours. So she had to switch out two of the $50 gift cards for one $100 one.

Speaker 2 Ruth went back to her car and called Mr. Seeker again, crying, told him this was it.
She couldn't purchase any more. He told her just to send him the numbers for the cards she did have, which she did.

Speaker 2 But of course, this still wasn't enough. He continued texting her, berating her, and saying she'd stolen money from him, even though Ruth still didn't have the money on PayPal.

Speaker 2 And that was the moment she said she snapped. She accused him of stealing from her, of taking advantage of her, and told him that she should go to the police.
If Ruth thought Mr.

Speaker 2 Seeker was being cruel to her before, he stepped it up when she called him out.

Speaker 2 He threatened to sue her for defamation if she went to the police, that the police would arrest her for stealing his money.

Speaker 2 He referenced the screenshots of the pending transfers as proof that they would take his side.

Speaker 2 Now, after this interaction, they stopped communicating, but Ruth was left feeling angry, angry at him, obviously, but also at herself.

Speaker 2 She was, you know, embarrassed and disappointed that she hadn't seen the red flag sooner, but she knew she needed to tell someone.

Speaker 2 So the next day, she pushed through her embarrassment and told her mom what had happened.

Speaker 2 They both agreed to go to the police and file a report, but before they did, Ruth did some research and learned that he had used an app to spoof his phone number, meaning she couldn't try to track him down.

Speaker 2 They didn't end up going to the police, and when Ruth tried to get help on the Seeking Arrangements website, she found a statement on their FAQ page that they weren't responsible for the actions of their members and anything that happened between two people wasn't their problem.

Speaker 2 It did say that she could report the profile, but she couldn't find it anymore. She thinks he either deleted it or blocked her.

Speaker 2 Now, it does look like Seeking Arrangements has since updated that statement, but at the time, there was nothing Ruth could do. She also never got her money back.

Speaker 2 Her bank was notoriously difficult to deal with, so she and her mom felt like it would be more of a hassle than what it was worth.

Speaker 2 Ruth told us that she wants others looking to get into this lifestyle to be very careful.

Speaker 2 She told us these types of relationships are often very cold and transactional, not to mention potentially dangerous if the person you're talking to wants to meet in person.

Speaker 2 And even though there's some taboo surrounding it, always, always tell at least one person what you're doing and who you're communicating with.

Speaker 2 She said, If she'd just told her parents what she was doing, they might have been able to see through the gift card scam before she even left the house to buy them.

Speaker 2 Both Ruth and Teresa told our team that they were left with this sense of embarrassment, of shame, when they realized that they'd been scammed.

Speaker 2 They thought they should have known better, that they were smarter than that. But that's the thing about these scams.

Speaker 2 They can happen to anyone, no matter who you are, what your background is, or how smart you are. Everyone is susceptible to these scams.

Speaker 2 Even one of our employees here at AudioShock had a brush with a scammer, which he has agreed to share in case it might help someone else out there.

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Speaker 2 We'll be calling this employee Cody, and his story started back in 2020. He'd just moved back to Indiana after living in LA.
COVID-19 was running rampant and he needed to find a job.

Speaker 2 But his experience is primarily post-production audio editing and during the pandemic, there wasn't much out there.

Speaker 2 Productions for most industries, like TV and film, had ground to a halt, and he didn't have many opportunities out here in the Midwest.

Speaker 2 So he started looking on some websites that post freelance gigs for TV and film.

Speaker 2 But the thing about freelancing is that most of the jobs don't last very long, and then you're kind of left to quickly try to find another.

Speaker 2 So when he saw a listing for a job that said it paid a decent amount of money, he was intrigued. Here's Cody.

Speaker 3 I ended up finding a job listing for a title called Sound Supervisor.

Speaker 3 It had a normal job description, it had a script, the job description itself had a link not only to the person's IMDB, but also to their own personal website. So everything seemed legit.

Speaker 3 It didn't seem like it was like a no-name or anything like that. It wasn't like a huge name in the space, right? Like it wasn't like, oh my God, I get to work with Steven Spielberg.

Speaker 3 And then you look back and you think, like, you know, how dumb were you? But everything seemed fine. Like, there was no red flags.

Speaker 2 So Cody submitted his application through the freelance site. And a few days later, he got an email back.

Speaker 3 They got back and said, hey, we really like your work. We really like your experience.
Like, we would love to have you. Here's everything.
So it was a more detailed description.

Speaker 3 They sent the script over.

Speaker 3 I could see the link to the IMDb and the website still, and everything seemed fine.

Speaker 2 Looking back, Cody says this was when the first red flag appeared. He said the email contained several grammatical errors, but at the time, he wasn't too concerned.

Speaker 2 He admits to being a bit of a grammar snob, as he puts it, so he was willing to overlook it.

Speaker 3 But that was the only red flag. Like everything else seemed fine.
They were very responsive. Like I was emailing them back and forth by this point, and it wasn't like days or weeks in between.

Speaker 3 I mean, it was like within a couple hours. So it was like, everything seemed fine.

Speaker 3 And so my first reply back was asking more about the job because the job description was good, but it almost seemed like it was for two different kinds of positions.

Speaker 3 So it listed some things that you generally find in sort of onset location production, but then also post-production, which is kind of my, more of my expertise anyway.

Speaker 3 I could do both, but I was just sort of wanting to know, like, okay, like, where am I at in the process here?

Speaker 2 Cody reached out and asked for some more info, but the response he got was a little vague. Not necessarily concerningly vague, just not as much information as he would have liked.

Speaker 2 They did, however, send him how much the position paid. And again, the money was good.
Not too good to be true good, because if it was, he would have been more easily able to spot what was going on.

Speaker 2 But it was just good enough that he was willing to overlook what they said next.

Speaker 3 Basically, it was like, hey, we're going to give you the money to purchase the equipment on behalf of the production company. But it was never like, spend your own money.

Speaker 3 So that kind of made me feel a little bit better because it still seemed weird, but that isn't, I guess, uncommon.

Speaker 3 Like a lot of people, when they're doing location sound, will either get money or like.

Speaker 3 the production will fund for the equipment or they will get it themselves and the production company will fund them back or they'll use a mix of their own equipment.

Speaker 3 So it wasn't like the oddest thing I've ever heard. And maybe it was my own inexperience in that part of audio.

Speaker 3 That's like, if I reached out to somebody who that's like their full-time job, they'd be like, oh no, like that's not how it works.

Speaker 3 But again, I think for me, it was the fact that they weren't saying like, hey, purchase your own equipment and we'll refund you. It was, we're sending you the money.

Speaker 3 We just want your experience to get the equipment that you know that we, that we'll need. I'm like, okay, that seems fair enough.

Speaker 3 And I actually, I was kind of happy about that because I didn't want like the director or the producer to buy the equipment that we'll be using. I'm like, sure, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 Like I should be the one to pick out what we're going to use.

Speaker 2 Cody still needed more info, like what was the size of the crew? Who's going to be on set? Things like that.

Speaker 2 So the person he was communicating with agreed to set up a Zoom meeting for later that month. And in the meantime, they'd send him a check so he could purchase the equipment.

Speaker 2 That check would also cover his first week's pay. About a week later, he got another email from them stating the check had been sent along with a tracking number so he could see when it was delivered.

Speaker 2 And it was a real tracking number, which again, made this whole thing seem more legit.

Speaker 3 And so I get it. It looks like a real check.
It's got their name on it. It's got the right amount.
It's got my name and everything looks fine. The only, I should say this is like the second red flag.

Speaker 3 The only thing that looked weird on the check was that One of the numbers was sort of, it looked like it was misprinted.

Speaker 3 I don't even know if it was one of the like routing or accounting numbers, but just one of the weird random numbers you see on the sides of checks.

Speaker 3 It was like, it started straight and then it kind of like tilted up. It just looked odd.
Like, I don't know if this is like a real check would look like this.

Speaker 3 And so seeing that the text is a little off, I was like, all right, I'm going to cash it, but I'm going to take precaution. And so I cashed the check and I monitor my bank account like a hawk.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, and I even told myself, like, if nothing happens after like two or three days, a normal time that a check's supposed to like get deposited and everything looks good, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna do something about it.

Speaker 3 And so after several days, like the check is still sitting there. I'm getting weird vibes.
You know, and so I call it. So I report the check as fraudulent to my bank.

Speaker 3 I take all of my money from my account. I close that account just because I don't know like what damage it could do.

Speaker 3 And really at this point, I just want to make sure that the bank knows that I'm aware that this could be be some sort of a bad check.

Speaker 3 I don't want the bank to think that I'm trying to do something nefarious, right?

Speaker 2 After he closed his account, Cody decided to do a little investigating.

Speaker 2 He went back to the website the job listing linked out to and sent a message via their contact form, because at this point, he wasn't entirely sure what had happened.

Speaker 2 He was pretty sure it was a scam, but like he said, he recognized the name of the production company the job was listing under.

Speaker 2 So he wondered if the scammer had built out this whole fake website under this other company's name, or if they'd somehow hacked into this company's account on this freelance site and was pretending to be them.

Speaker 2 Turns out the scammer had made a fake listing using this real company's name and linked out to their website and IMDb to give it sort of this air of legitimacy.

Speaker 2 When Cody got in contact with the actual production company, he told them everything that was going on and reported the incident to the Federal Trade Commission.

Speaker 2 He also reported the email address he'd been communicating with as fraudulent and posted a message on the freelance site's message board warning others to stay away from listings from this company without separately verifying if it was legit.

Speaker 2 That Zoom call he'd set up with the scammer never happened, and he never got another email from them again.

Speaker 2 And speaking of the email, Cody says that looking back, other than the grammatical errors, he didn't notice anything sketchy. Even the email address itself looked legit.

Speaker 2 Like, let's say the actual production company's email was johndoe at gmail, the scammer's was johndoe productions at gmail and because the legit company didn't have their email address on their website cody couldn't confirm until it was almost too late i'm very suspicious about everybody and everything

Speaker 3 and so

Speaker 3 and most other situations again if if they said hey we want you to purchase the equipment and we'll refund you later i would have been like no not at all and i think it was that part part of it it was the fact that at no point was i giving away like personal again like social security number or like bank account number, anything like that.

Speaker 3 I wasn't giving away money at all. And there was no talks about it.
It wasn't like, oh, well, like, we'll have you send money later. Like, I mean, it was, it was the other way.

Speaker 3 I'm like, what scammer pays me? You know?

Speaker 2 That fact bothered Cody. Like, he couldn't see what the end goal of this whole thing was, because obviously scammers are normally in this business, if you can call it that.
for money or power.

Speaker 2 So what was the incentive to have Cody go out, deposit a check, and purchase sound equipment? Well, we looked into it and it turns out fraudulent check scams are relatively common.

Speaker 2 You can read more about them on the FTC's website, but in short, you'll be hired for something.

Speaker 2 The scammer will send you a check, you'll deposit it, and most of the time it takes banks a while to realize they have a bad check, but by that point, they've likely already given you the money.

Speaker 2 The scammer, knowing you have that money, will have you send some back to them. Sometimes it's to cover an account activation fee.
Sometimes they'll say they accidentally overpaid you.

Speaker 2 So you're sending your real money back to them. And by the time the bank realizes the check you deposited was no good, you're on the hook for it.

Speaker 2 So here are some tips to help you recognize and avoid these types of scams. Trust your gut.
If something feels off, it probably is.

Speaker 2 Look up the company you're applying for using the word scam or review in the search.

Speaker 2 If you get results saying the company is fake or being used as part of a scam, don't apply or go any further with your application. Take a careful look at the check's coloring, numbers, and edges.

Speaker 2 If the numbers look strange, the coloring seems off, or more than one edge is rough or perforated, take it into the bank.

Speaker 2 If you can, try to verify that you're speaking to a person affiliated with the company hiring you by making contact with them in a different way, like using the contact info on their website or filling out a contact us form.

Speaker 2 And lastly, employees will never or should never send you money via a check and then ask you to send some of it back to them. If this is happening, then they're likely trying to scam you.

Speaker 2 So if you've already deposited the check and it's cleared, do not spend the money. Instead, go to your bank and explain the situation.

Speaker 2 After all this was over, Cody says he couldn't help but feel a tad embarrassed about the whole thing.

Speaker 2 He was excited about the job, especially because the money they were offering would have given him some breathing room during a time when money was tight and jobs were scarce.

Speaker 2 He's grateful that he trusted his gut when it came to the check, though, and was able to make it out unscathed.

Speaker 2 Plus, just a few months later, he started working for AudioChuck, so it all worked out in the end. He got to meet Ashley face to face over Zoom, mind you.
It was 2020 after all.

Speaker 2 But the opportunity was legit, and he's still here with us today. But it turns out there are some people posing as AudioChuck out there, trying to scam people with not so legit opportunities.

Speaker 2 And Ashley's gonna tell you about that next.

Speaker 1 By now, you've heard about several different types of scams and how to avoid them. But now I wanna tell you all about why we decided to do this episode in the first place.

Speaker 1 Late last year, our team was made aware of several scams that are using our name to try and solicit private information.

Speaker 1 Right away, we had people on it and we have lots of legal mumbo-jumbo going on behind the scenes.

Speaker 1 But while all that's going on, we wanted to make sure that we're doing everything we possibly can to educate our listeners so you can protect yourself.

Speaker 1 And there is no way to get information faster to you than right here in the crime junkie feed. Because I think one of the best things we can do is talk about these scams.

Speaker 1 The more informed we all are, the less likely we will be to fall victim to one of these scams. So let's dive in.
I want to tell you about how this started.

Speaker 1 There are two big scams that I'm going to talk about today.

Speaker 1 And And the first one is where this person or people maybe is targeting anyone online who has some kind of following, up and coming influencers, chefs, news anchors, someone popular basically.

Speaker 1 And they'll send them an email inviting them to a Facebook live event hosted by me where they say, I'm going to interview you one-on-one.

Speaker 1 Now, even when people don't know who I am, they'll look up Crime Junkie. They see that it's one of the biggest podcasts in the world and think like, okay, yeah, this sounds like a good deal.

Speaker 1 And what's even better is that they'll offer to pay you a few thousand dollars as compensation.

Speaker 1 So if you email them back and say you're interested in learning more, they'll set up a Zoom call with you to go over all of the logistics.

Speaker 1 And during this call, they'll ask you to go into your Facebook settings, change some of the settings so that the live event can be monetized. And then they'll go here.

Speaker 1 I'm going to give you control of my screen so you can just log into your account over here.

Speaker 1 But if you do that, once you do that, bada bing, bada boom, boom, they have your account info. Now, the end goal of this one is a little fuzzy for me.

Speaker 1 Facebook can and does save financial information if you use something like MetaPay.

Speaker 1 And while Facebook says it encrypts your information, I wouldn't put it past someone, especially nefarious hackers, to bypass whatever safeguards have been put in place.

Speaker 1 But There's also value in the Facebook page itself if you have lots of followers. And if they get access, they could lock you out and not let you back in unless you've paid them.

Speaker 1 Sort of like a ransomware situation. So, one of the first times we became aware of this was when a news anchor in Houston named Sophia Ojita reached out to us asking if an email she got was legit.

Speaker 1 Our team responded pretty quickly, told her it wasn't, unfortunately.

Speaker 1 But trying to target a news anchor like Sophia was a big mistake because she turned around and shared her story on KPRC2 in Houston. And then she shared it with us directly.

Speaker 4 So, this must have been back in January. I get an email and it says invitation to be a guest on our podcast.
And this one caught my attention because it was an invitation.

Speaker 4 And I thought, okay, let me just read through it in detail. And here it goes.
It says, Dear KPRC2, Sophia Okita, I represent Crime Junkie Podcast Management.

Speaker 4 We are delighted to extend an invitation for you to participate in our online podcast event hosted by Ashley Flower and Brit.

Speaker 1 Ashley Flower, not flowers.

Speaker 1 Singular. And Sophia said she noticed the spelling mistake right away because she listens to our show, but she was intrigued and excited at the opportunity, so she kept reading.

Speaker 4 And it says, During the session, we will delve into aspects of life, including challenges and triumphs, the joys of pursuing your passions, captivating stories crafted by authors and writers, the path to your success.

Speaker 4 This will be broadcast on Facebook and it will be broadcast live on Pages. To show our appreciation for this episode, we are pleased to offer you a compensation of $3,000.

Speaker 4 We firmly believe that you have something to share with our audience and would not want you to miss out on this opportunity.

Speaker 4 And I thought, agreed, I do not want to miss out on this opportunity either.

Speaker 4 This sounds great, but for me, for me, it was more than any type of compensation because, you know, when we work in news, we don't take compensation for these types of events.

Speaker 4 It was about, wow, this is so cool.

Speaker 4 This is such a great opportunity. I follow the podcast.
I am thinking maybe they really want to hear, you know, my experience as a journalist and covering crime and

Speaker 4 how we ask questions and all these things started going through my mind. And I was just so excited that all of those red flags and my gut feeling just went out the window.

Speaker 1 Sophia replied to the email saying she was interested and she got a response pretty quickly. But that's when she noticed red flag number two.

Speaker 4 This person, they never signed the email, which was another red flag. They just wrote Ashley Flowers podcasts.

Speaker 4 And I thought, okay, well, typically you have somebody who is maybe the manager or the PR person, somebody who's in charge of finding these interviews, sign it and you have a person that you talk to.

Speaker 4 Flag number two, I ignored it. I was like, okay, that's fine.

Speaker 4 Sure, let's set up a Zoom interview because they wanted to go over the Facebook logistics and make sure that all the technical parts of this podcast will be in place on my end.

Speaker 4 And I thought, that makes sense. Let's do it.

Speaker 1 They set up a Zoom call and on that call was red flag number three.

Speaker 1 The man she was talking to never showed his face. He just had the Facebook logo up as his icon.
And he never told her his name.

Speaker 4 He explained the podcast situation. He's like, we're going to do a podcast and it's going to go live on Facebook.

Speaker 4 And because you have this many followers on Facebook, you're going to share this link with all your followers. And that's how we're going to monetize this event.

Speaker 4 and ashley flowers is going to interview you live on facebook and we have other guests at the same time and it's going to be this huge event and you're going to be able to make money in that way as well

Speaker 1 by this point sophia got the feeling that something was up She didn't know what was going on, but she was pretty sure whoever she was talking to, he wasn't part of the audio check team.

Speaker 1 But like a true journalist at that point, she became curious. She wanted to know what was going on.

Speaker 4 He said, so we need you to change a setting on your Facebook page. And I thought, what setting do you need me to change?

Speaker 4 And he said, well, do you have this, you know, this little setting where you can monetize your account? And lucky for me, honestly,

Speaker 4 I was locked out of my work Facebook page. And we were working to fix it.

Speaker 4 So it was like a saving grace that I had no access to this account because he kept asking me, hey, can you log in and share your screen with me?

Speaker 4 And I was like, no, actually, I can't log in because right now I don't have access. And he goes, share your screen with me anyway.
I'll help you get access. I can do it.

Speaker 4 And everything in my gut was said, do not share this screen with this person. But I looked at my screen and there was nothing really that.

Speaker 4 you know was any information to give this person so i shared my screen and he's going through my facebook account he's like yeah you don't have that you need to you need to get access to your account first and so he said, we'll set up another meeting and we'll get you all set up.

Speaker 4 And if you need help, let me know because I'm really good on the technical side of this and we'll get it all set up.

Speaker 1 As soon as Sophia got off the call, she felt defeated. She knew in her heart of hearts that this was a scam.

Speaker 1 And that's when she contacted our team who confirmed that we had no plans for a Facebook Live event.

Speaker 4 And honestly, my heart dropped because not only are you so excited, you think this is a great opportunity. You want to share whatever insight that you have in my profession.

Speaker 4 And then not only that, it's not real, but then you think, oh no,

Speaker 4 what did I do? What information does this person have? Did they see something on my screen that maybe was there and I don't know? And now I'm thinking, am I going to open up my bank account?

Speaker 4 Is money going to be gone? Do I need to worry about my house, security, just in general? And it was awful. It was just the worst feeling ever.

Speaker 1 Sophia couldn't stop thinking about it. And when she went into work the next day, she told her coworker, Amy Davis, about the whole thing.

Speaker 1 Well, turns out Amy is part of the investigative reporting team there at KPRC2.

Speaker 1 And she has her own segment called Ask Amy. So again, in true journalist fashion, Amy was like, well, you did say you were going to set up another Zoom invite with this guy.

Speaker 1 So why don't we just do it? Let's record it and try and get more information about him, which I, of course, freaking love. As someone who's on here basically doing the same thing, this is amazing.

Speaker 1 And one of our team members actually did something very similar with who I believe is likely the same guy.

Speaker 1 We got in touch with him using a fake email address, set up a Zoom call, and tried to find out more about him.

Speaker 1 We don't have the recording to play for you today because the guy dropped off the call once he realized that our team member wasn't willing to share his screen.

Speaker 1 But Sophia was able to set up another Zoom call with this guy and they recorded the whole thing for an episode of Ask Amy. I'm going to link to that episode below in our show notes.

Speaker 1 And in addition to Sophia's story and undercover operation, Amy actually interviews a scam expert and goes over some safety tips. So I highly recommend that you go take a look at their segment.

Speaker 1 But anyways, they get to talking and this guy said that he manages my social media from Dubai. which obviously he does not.
Anyone who works on our social media team is here in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Speaker 4 The conversation eventually turns into, I contacted Ashley Flowers and I contacted the team and they said this email is fake. This is a scam.
And he said, oh, no, this is not a scam.

Speaker 4 Did you talk to Ashley herself? Because the next time we talk, Ashley's going to be on this podcast or on this Zoom call and she's going to meet with you.

Speaker 1 Now, I'm sure if they had another Zoom meeting, he would have come up with some excuse for why I wasn't there. But I can't help but imagine someone pretending to be me.

Speaker 1 I think I would think it was funny if I wasn't so pissed at this person trying to take advantage of my people. So in the end, they hung up and they haven't been in contact since.

Speaker 1 But Sophia's story highlights just how easy it can be for people to fall into these scams, even when you know all the signs.

Speaker 4 I think that I'm pretty savvy. I think that I listen to the clues, that I listen to any of the tips that our investigative team gives us about scams.
And we do a lot of interviews with Crime Stoppers.

Speaker 4 And so there's, there's always like a refresh every week or every other week on the latest scam. And I almost got scammed.

Speaker 4 And it's the worst feeling, but I thought to myself, if I almost got scammed, knowing everything that I know, there are people out there right now that are really getting scammed.

Speaker 4 And we need to do something. We need to stop it somehow or try to, right? Expose these people.

Speaker 1 So this is like 2007 Catfish 101, but tip number one, show me your face. No one from a legit company is refusing to give you their name or show their face.

Speaker 1 Two, do not share access to your screens or accounts.

Speaker 1 If someone lets you on their screen, do not go log into your accounts through their screen unless you have been able to independently verify that the company is legit.

Speaker 1 Even then, I don't like see a world where you need to do that. Like just be very, very careful.
Do not share access to your screens or accounts.

Speaker 1 And number three, it is okay to reach out independently to whoever you think you're meeting with to verify. Do what Sophia did, reach out to our team or any other company.

Speaker 1 They will easily be able to tell you yes or no. Now, I got one more story for you that I think is particularly nefarious and the one that you might be most susceptible to.

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Speaker 1 All right, this next scam preys on people during a vulnerable time in their lives, interviewing for a new job. I mean, job interviews are already nerve-wracking and stressful.

Speaker 1 We've probably all been through them. And much like how the person in Cody's story was using a successful production company's name to cause harm, The same thing is happening with AudioChuck.

Speaker 1 There is someone or someone's out there pretending to be us, posting jobs on various listing sites.

Speaker 1 And not only are these people pretending to be us, they're interviewing people and even awarding jobs, all with the goal of stealing personal information.

Speaker 1 Because when you get a new job, you have to fill out paperwork. And that paperwork includes things like your social security number, your bank information, your address.

Speaker 1 Now, we don't have a specific story to share with you about this scam, but I do want to walk you through a few different things about our recruitment process so you can make sure that you're talking to the right people.

Speaker 1 First, our team communicates primarily by email throughout the process. The whole recruitment process and those emails will always come from an audiochuck.com email address.

Speaker 1 If you're skeptical, make sure you check the spelling because some scammers will try and alter the spelling, maybe just by one letter to try and fly under the radar.

Speaker 1 Also, I mean, this other thing happened to my staff literally just the other week. Someone was sending emails from me saying that they wanted employees to set up a new vendor vendor in our system.

Speaker 1 And if you looked at the email in the from section, it legit was my email. They literally fooled my own husband.
Like, thank God he texts me. Of course, he was a little bit of a jerk.

Speaker 1 He was like, I'm not setting up your stupid vendor. Like, you know how to do it.
Do it yourself. I'm like, Eric, please get your head out of your ass.
It is not me.

Speaker 1 But all that to say, even though they could make it look like it was from me, if you looked closely at the reply to field, that email wasn't mine. So, I mean, again, I'm not kidding you.

Speaker 1 At the top of this episode, I told you they're getting sophisticated. You have to look at the details and assume nothing.

Speaker 1 If there is something in a reply to field, likely who you are emailing is not actually who you're emailing. But back to our process.

Speaker 1 So you're going to get an email, audiochruck.com, no other weird reply tos, and then you'll have several virtual interviews with numerous members of the team.

Speaker 1 The first person you'll talk to will be our recruitment partner, who again does have an audiochruck.com email address.

Speaker 1 Then you'll meet with our chief of staff and the manager that you'd be reporting to.

Speaker 1 And anytime there is a virtual interview, our cameras will always be on and you'll again be able to verify who's in the meeting by their email address.

Speaker 1 Regardless of the position that you're applying for, at some point in the process, if you make it through, you'll be asked to complete at least one assessment.

Speaker 1 And for some positions, it's pretty light, others are more in-depth. but we'll never offer a job without making sure you can, you know, do the stuff we need you to do.

Speaker 1 And then finally, regardless of where you live, at least at this point in our recruitment process, you will have a final in-person interview at our offices here in Indy.

Speaker 1 We'll fly you out, we'll pay for your hotel. You will not be asked to spend any money at any point during your time interviewing for us, whether you get the position or not.

Speaker 1 And if you're still, for some reason, unsure of who you're communicating with, you can reach out to our team via our audio chuck or crime junkie websites.

Speaker 1 I promise it will not hurt your job prospects if it turns out that you actually are communicating with members of our team. We would so much rather you be safe than sorry.

Speaker 1 And really, I think that's a good tip for pretty much any scam.

Speaker 1 If you feel any red flags throughout your communication with someone, it is always a good idea to reach out to verify that the person or persons you're talking to is legit.

Speaker 1 Contact them through their website, through a phone number, maybe an email address that you know is theirs. One of the best ways to avoid being scammed is to open a separate line of communication.

Speaker 1 Now, I know this episode has been long, but cybercrimes like the ones we talked about today are just getting more and more common, and scammers are finding new ways to target unsuspecting people every day.

Speaker 1 I keep coming back to something that Sophia said in her interview about how even though sharing her story was embarrassing and she felt guilty about the whole thing, she knew that she could do good by telling it.

Speaker 1 And that's actually something almost everyone we spoke to for this episode said, that they were left feeling embarrassed and ashamed, but they all knew that one of the best ways to combat these types of cybercrimes is to talk about them so others can be informed.

Speaker 1 So that's what we wanted to do, Crime Junkies, inform you about some of the ways that ruthless scammers try to infiltrate themselves into your lives.

Speaker 1 And we want to educate you on what to look out for so that doesn't happen to you. And don't worry, you don't have to remember every single thing from this episode.

Speaker 1 Over on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com, we're going to have a whole page dedicated to tips that you can reference if, you know, know, something or someone feels off to you.

Speaker 1 We're going to have a direct link to that page right there in our show notes. So I want to end with a big thank you to everyone who sent their stories to us.

Speaker 1 I know it was hard, but I am sure, so, so sure that your experiences will help someone else realize that they're being scammed too before it's too late.

Speaker 1 And if you want to arm yourself against cybercrimes or you want more information about the ones we're fighting, we'll have some resources listed in our show notes.

Speaker 1 And just as an aside, AudioChuck is usually hiring. Positions vary, but you can find all our open roles at audiochuck.com under the Careers tab.

Speaker 1 Most of our team started out as fans, and I know I'm biased, but we have the best team in the world.

Speaker 1 Most positions are here in person in Indy, but if you're willing to come, we do offer a relocation fee.

Speaker 1 We also offer very good livable wages, bonuses, 401k with matching, great health benefits, employee development.

Speaker 1 We have a stipend amount each year for our employees to donate to causes that matter to them personally.

Speaker 1 And everyone's favorite benefit, for some reason, unbeknownst to me, because the other stuff, like is the really hard stuff I had to put a lot of work into.

Speaker 1 But we have free coffee at a couple of great local coffee houses near the office. Oh, and honestly, the best one, you get to hang out with Chuck every day.
So, on that note, what do you think, Chuck?

Speaker 1 Do you approve?

Speaker 1 Thank you again to the wonderful people who participated and shared their stories with us to help protect you guys.

Speaker 1 You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com. Make sure to follow us on Instagram.
That is at crimejunkiepodcast.

Speaker 1 Britt and I will both be back for a new episode next week, but I'm actually bringing Britt back one more time. Stick around for the good.

Speaker 1 All right, Crime Junkies, it's that time again, my favorite time actually, where we all get to celebrate the positive things that are coming out of our true crime community.

Speaker 2 I think it's my favorite time, too. I don't think this segment will ever get old.

Speaker 2 Ashley, I can't wait to hear the good that you have to share for us today.

Speaker 1 All right, this one is from our listener, Diana. Her email to us read, I just want to thank you guys from the bottom of my heart.

Speaker 1 I went through something tonight that without the advice of your podcast, I don't know that I would have picked up on.

Speaker 1 I was getting tailgated by a blacked out SUV and turned into a grocery store to let them pass by. However, I kept an eye on the SUV and noticed them pause at the next entrance.

Speaker 1 I stayed in my car to see what direction they were going to go. They pulled in and pulled right in front of my car.

Speaker 1 As soon as the doors opened, I backed out thinking that if they're here for groceries, they'll keep walking. But they jumped back in the car and chased me.

Speaker 1 I drove to the police department despite them trying to pull in front of me at a light to block me in.

Speaker 1 I don't know what their intentions were, but I trusted my gut and stayed alert when things fell off.

Speaker 1 Me before your podcast, I could see it now, either obliviously walking into the grocery store or talking to them at my own window, trying to be nice and de-escalate, whatever the situation was.

Speaker 1 But when things felt off, I paid attention and I trusted myself.

Speaker 1 They passed the police station, of course, when I pulled in, but I was at least able to get them a description of the car, the one driver I saw, and they escorted me back home after about two hours to make sure I wasn't being followed.

Speaker 1 I'm still shaking, but I had to reach back out and tell you how incredibly thankful I am for all your advice over the years. It truly has changed me for the better.
Lots of love to your entire team.

Speaker 1 And from a dog groomer and a dog lover, give Chuck a hug for me. Love Diana.

Speaker 2 That is

Speaker 2 a bombing story. And it reminds me of the book that we talk about all the time, The Gift of Fear.
Like, what an amazing time to like tune into and listen to that gift.

Speaker 2 Diana, oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 I know.

Speaker 1 this is like my, one of my favorite outcomes of the podcast is all the stories we'll never get to tell, right? Like when you think about it that way, it's that is such a good way to say it.

Speaker 2 Oh my God.

Speaker 1 The stories we'll never get to tell is why I want to keep telling the stories we do get to tell.

Speaker 1 And listen, we hope nobody finds themselves in a scary situation like this, but we want our listeners to be equipped if they do. I know we say it all the time, right? People call us paranoid.

Speaker 1 We are proparanoid. We are prepared.
So you guys, each episode always holds so many lessons and guidance that can be takeaways.

Speaker 1 And our goal is that, like Diana, you realize that these stories aren't just stories, they are real events that affect real people every day.

Speaker 1 And we don't want you to think that something you hear couldn't happen to you because, unfortunately, it could.

Speaker 1 So, as always, please continue to be weird, be rude, and stay alive, Crime Junkies.

Speaker 1 Crime Junkie is an audio chuck production.

Speaker 1 Have you ever experienced something truly unexplainable?

Speaker 1 A moment that felt almost like a vivid dream, leaving you with a lingering sense of wonder, leaving you questioning everything you thought you knew?

Speaker 1 Perhaps it was a fleeting glimpse of something extraordinary, a chilling whisper in the dead of night, or an undeniable premonition that comes to life.

Speaker 1 I'm Yvette Gentile, and I'm her sister, Rasha Pecaro.

Speaker 1 Each week on our podcast, So Supernatural, we partner with the one and only Ashley Flowers, host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie, to take you on a journey of the world's most mystical mysteries.

Speaker 1 Ready to explore the unknown? Join us every Friday for a new episode of So Supernatural, available wherever you listen to podcasts.