MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Hugues de la Plaza

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Speaker 1 Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

Speaker 2 And I'm Britt.

Speaker 1 And the story I have for you today truly earns its title. It is a classic locked-in-a-room mystery that points in two different directions, leaving authorities and the victim's loved ones divided.

Speaker 1 This is the story of Ug de la Plaza.

Speaker 1 It's a little after eight Saturday morning, June 2nd, 2007 in San Francisco, California. That's when a guy named Carl steps outside onto the front porch of his apartment building.

Speaker 1 And this apartment building, it's like a standalone triplex style deal. So it's just like three units all in a row, all like on the ground floor.
Their doors are like side by side.

Speaker 1 There's actually a picture in the Crime Junkie app if you're listening there, or you can go to the blog post and you should look because it will really help as I'm talking about the rest of this episode.

Speaker 1 But anyways, Carl steps out to grab his morning paper, but when he bends over to pick it up, something stops him cold. Something that he can't quite compute.

Speaker 1 It's blood at the base of a small set of steps leading to the sidewalk. And we're not talking a little bit of blood.
This is a pool of blood. And there's another at the top of the landing.

Speaker 1 There's even bloodstreaks across the handrail and more alarmingly, dripping from his neighbor, Hug de la Plaza's door handle.

Speaker 1 Carl runs inside and calls 911, insisting that they need to come right away. And the police do.

Speaker 1 I mean, within minutes, they're rushing to Ug's front door where they knock several times, but there's nothing. Like it is silent.
Now they check the door to see if they can get in, but it's locked.

Speaker 1 Same with the door at the back of his unit.

Speaker 1 But they are able to look through a window and inside they see even more blood, which gives the officers all the probable cause they need to break down that back door.

Speaker 1 And what they find inside is far worse than what they even saw outside on the front steps. According to an SF Weekly article from 2007, blood is everywhere.
It's on various surfaces.

Speaker 1 It's tracked all over the floor in shoe prints, even dripping down the walls. And there's this trail of blood on the floor, which leads to the living room.

Speaker 1 And And it's there that they find the body of 36-year-old Oog.

Speaker 1 He's lying on the floor face up. And when paramedics arrive, they realize that there is nothing they can do.
He has lost too much blood by this point. He is already deceased.

Speaker 1 Now, at first, the paramedics think he's been shot just purely based on all the blood that they were seeing. But when the medical examiner arrives, she realizes that's not correct.

Speaker 1 He's actually been stabbed multiple times, once each in the neck, the chest, and the stomach. But what he was stabbed with is unclear.
Like, there's not a knife laying near him, though.

Speaker 1 Investigators on the scene do find a pair of knives in the kitchen that are the right size to cause those wounds. But the problem is there's no visible blood on those.

Speaker 2 Could have been washed.

Speaker 1 They could have. And actually, one of them was found in the sink.

Speaker 2 So it's plausible.

Speaker 1 Right. Either way, they collect both of them for testing, and they also take take samples of all of the blood and even some hairs that they find inside the apartment too.

Speaker 1 Right near Ug's body, there are signs of some kind of struggle. So there's this TV that's overturned and a broken wine glass.

Speaker 1 They also find a broken watch pinned underneath him that kind of looks like it's been almost ripped off his wrist.

Speaker 2 So was he attacked outside his apartment or inside? Because I don't understand how the blood got outside on the sidewalks.

Speaker 1 Outside. I know.
They don't know, like, quite yet. They were initially thinking that maybe it happened inside and then the killer had tracked the blood out because of all those shoe prints everywhere.

Speaker 1 But what they end up finding out is that every single one of those shoe prints were made by the shoes Oog was wearing.

Speaker 2 Then it had to have happened outside and Ug ran into his apartment to get away. Probably why and how the door was locked behind him.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And the more they look around, the more it seems like no one else came inside at any point.
Other than Ug, obviously.

Speaker 1 According to an SF gate article by Katie Dowd, there's no indication that a window was forced open or anything like that.

Speaker 1 Plus, the doors were locked, like again, when the guy was trying to get in initially, if you remember.

Speaker 1 They also rule out robbery as a motive pretty quickly, too, because Ug's computer is there, his cell phone's there, wallet, all still there.

Speaker 2 So if he was attacked outside and made it in, why didn't he call for help?

Speaker 1 It's odd. I don't know.
I mean, his cell phone is one of the few items in the house that actually isn't covered in blood. So he didn't make it to it or didn't go to it.

Speaker 2 Even try.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like something just isn't adding up here already. So the investigators are thinking, like, okay, maybe talking to the neighbors will help us piece this together.

Speaker 1 And again, he's in this triplex style thing with three units. They're all sharing walls.

Speaker 2 And where is his unit? Is it in the middle on one of the ends?

Speaker 1 He's on one of the end units. So he's sharing a wall with at least one person.

Speaker 1 But there's a problem. Like no one, when they go talk to them, seems to have heard anything, not a struggle, or at least nothing alarming enough that would prompt them to have called police.

Speaker 2 Which honestly kind of makes sense. His one neighbor didn't even realize anything was wrong until he went out for the paper that morning.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was Carl. And Carl didn't even have much more to like add that would have helped police.

Speaker 1 But the other neighbor, so not Carl, that one tells police that around 2.40 a.m. He did hear Ug's door open and then close like three times, he says, over the course of just a few minutes.

Speaker 1 He also says he heard footsteps running downstairs and at least two thuds, like one loud enough to shake his wall.

Speaker 1 So again, he's hearing something, but it wasn't enough for him to think that something was even wrong in Ug's apartment.

Speaker 1 From what I gather, it sounds like he just kind of chalked it up to apartment living in a big city kind of thing. And it's also, this is happening over the weekend.
Ug was known to be a partier.

Speaker 1 His neighbor might have known this. And that probably wasn't the first time he heard late night noises coming from next door.
And again, it's just like some coming and going. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But this account, even though he didn't know it at the time, the account does help investigators put together a timeline of Ug's final hours.

Speaker 1 And when they look at a neighboring building security camera footage, It actually captured Ug walking home alone on the sidewalk around 2 a.m., just steps from his apartment.

Speaker 1 Now, because of where this camera is, it doesn't actually show him walking into his apartment or even the front steps leading up to where all that blood was found.

Speaker 1 And it also didn't capture any sort of attack or anyone else entering or leaving the area.

Speaker 2 But there also was that back door. Someone could have gone in or out that way.
Are there any cameras in the back of the building or any of the neighboring buildings that direction?

Speaker 1 From what I gather, it doesn't seem like it because nobody talks about any other kind of camera. And the footage that we do have, I mean, we're not talking like top quality, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 According to Katie Dowd's reporting, that camera was motion activated and like blurry. Again, remember 2007, this like the days of doorbell cameras on every door are years away.

Speaker 1 So what they have is sparse. It is not catching everything and it's not even recording 24-7.

Speaker 2 But it's working. And in Crime Junkie World, that's a huge win.

Speaker 1 Yes, they have something to work with. Now, even though they know U got home around 2, they need to backtrack and figure out where he was before then.

Speaker 1 And they do that by talking to some of his friends. Those friends tell investigators that he worked until about 5 p.m.
and then he went on a date, which was apparently a pretty regular thing for him.

Speaker 1 Like he was always on dating sites, always going out, kind of known to be a bit of a player. If we're in 2007, I'm gonna use 2007 terms.

Speaker 1 So after his date at around 10.30, he met up with some of his friends and coworkers at a club. I guess he'd recently gotten a promotion.

Speaker 1 He wanted to celebrate, and this group basically partied all night and closed the place down. They say that Ug left alone and headed home, which is where that neighbor's security camera caught him.

Speaker 2 How far is the walk from the club back to his apartment?

Speaker 1 It's like 10 minutes. But, you know, when they're looking at the whole picture, I mean, he is walking home two o'clock in the morning.
He has been drinking.

Speaker 1 And as investigators are learning more about the area he lives in, they realize that he does live close to an area that's known to have a higher crime rate.

Speaker 1 So even that short 10-minute walk does leave a lot of possibilities on the table, including apparently suicide. What?

Speaker 2 Where did that come from?

Speaker 1 Police.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah, it came from police, but why? From where?

Speaker 1 What evidence?

Speaker 1 I don't know exactly when this idea formed, but it was clear that they already had a bit of a theory when they were talking to his friends and neighbors, asking questions about his personal life.

Speaker 1 Did he use drugs? Was he depressed? Was he suicidal? Now, from what I can tell, just about everyone they speak to says that he hadn't shown any signs of depression.

Speaker 1 But that answer didn't seem to hold much water with authorities because within days, they were pretty sure that Ug stabbed himself.

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Speaker 1 The investigator's theory goes a little something like this. They think that Ug might have taken some drugs at the club or bought some drugs on the walk home.

Speaker 1 And then he entered his apartment high and drunk.

Speaker 1 And for some reason, that combination of alcohol and drugs caused him to take a knife from the kitchen and stab himself in the stomach, in the chest, and in the neck.

Speaker 2 How does Blood get outside the apartment then?

Speaker 1 Well, investigators think that after he stabbed himself, he washed the knife off in the sink and then he walked around his apartment as he bled out. And then at some point he went outside.

Speaker 1 They don't explain why he would have done that. Then he comes back inside, then locks the front door before he collapses in the living room and dies there.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry. I can't decide what part of this scenario is most outlandish.

Speaker 1 I know. When I was like putting it together, I was like, I feel like I missed part of the story, but there is no part to miss.
It feels like zero to 60. And take your pick.

Speaker 1 Like every part of this doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 I mean, I guess I'm focusing on like

Speaker 2 he washed the knife.

Speaker 1 Why? I know.

Speaker 2 None of this makes sense.

Speaker 1 No, it does not make sense. And, you know, they do say like, okay, you know, just in case the evidence doesn't end up lining up with that, right?

Speaker 1 Because the knives are clean, sure, but like they're going to test for blood and stuff. But if it doesn't match up, there is a theory number two.

Speaker 2 Oh, good. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, in this, in this second theory, he still stabbed himself to them, but option two is basically they think that after stabbing himself, Ug could have thrown the weapon out the window or wait for it, buried it.

Speaker 2 No, let's go back to where he was just washing the knives.

Speaker 1 Buried it where?

Speaker 2 Even if he threw it out, threw it out a window, which sounds preposterous.

Speaker 1 Wild, right?

Speaker 2 That should be like the easiest thing to find. out the window, right? Like just go outside.
Did they go out and

Speaker 1 show me the murder weapon?

Speaker 2 Right. Like, cause he didn't throw it out the window and then yeah go outside and take it somewhere else like take it back into what like

Speaker 1 i you're all the words you're like you're not gonna get a full sentence but i understand why i can't find anything in the research that says they searched outside but like i almost have to assume that means they probably did but didn't find anything because otherwise we wouldn't be talking about multiple theories if they had found a knife that had blood on it or even if it had been washed outside we would be saying we have the murder weapon.

Speaker 1 We wouldn't need other theories, right?

Speaker 2 Right. And they're suggesting that he did one of these bonkers options after he had just stabbed himself in the neck and the chest.

Speaker 1 And the stomach.

Speaker 2 In the stomach. Right.

Speaker 1 So, yeah.

Speaker 2 How much time would he have even realistically had to open a window and pitch the knife out, find a place to bury it, scrub it up in the sink? I don't know.

Speaker 2 And if one of those three things happened, wouldn't there have been a trail of blood to, I mean, wherever it's buried or something?

Speaker 1 I don't know. And if this makes no sense to you, that's because this doesn't make any sense.
This whole theory is deeply flawed. And unfortunately, it doesn't get any better.

Speaker 1 By June 5th, the medical examiner finishes her preliminary autopsy. Now, she still has to wait for things like toxicology and results from the hair and knives and blood taken from the scene.

Speaker 1 None of that's back yet.

Speaker 1 So some things are still up in the air, but she lists the cause of death as undetermined, not homicide, even though the stab to the neck had such force that she says it punctured his lung, which to me indicates.

Speaker 2 Indicates that he was attacked and this was murder.

Speaker 2 I don't know what is causing confusion for these people.

Speaker 2 I don't understand what I'm missing here.

Speaker 1 Well, based on an episode of 48 Hours Mystery that aired on this case, it sounds like a lot of this theory stemmed from Ug's ex-girlfriend, Melissa.

Speaker 1 She ends up saying that she had mentioned the idea of suicide to investigators when they interviewed her. She said that she told them that Ug was into Japanese culture, specifically samurai movies.

Speaker 1 And in samurai culture, if someone dishonors themselves, one of the ways that they could atone is to take a knife or a sword and stab themselves in the stomach.

Speaker 1 And since one of Ug's wounds was to his stomach, they're thinking that he was trying to maybe imitate that.

Speaker 2 But with a knife and also stabbing himself two more times.

Speaker 1 It doesn't 100% line up. And on top of that, Melissa would later claim that she was merely speculating about that after she heard that investigators were calling it a suicide at the crime scene.
So

Speaker 2 almost more of her making things make sense. to a certain extent.

Speaker 2 Not necessarily saying that this would be evidence, but saying, oh, like, if you're thinking this this way, this could have explained this injury.

Speaker 1 Yeah, whereas other people position it like, well, we're thinking this because Melissa said this, and Melissa's like, I only said that because you said you were thinking this.

Speaker 1 It's like this weird round and round. Right.

Speaker 1 Now, investigators say there is other stuff, not just Melissa's statement that also points to suicide. And some of them we already know, like the two locked doors.

Speaker 1 and the single set of bloody footprints and the fact that Ug didn't call 911 or call out for help at all.

Speaker 1 But there's also some of the blood evidence in the medical examiner's opinion that was not consistent with someone who was attacked and would be in a state of panic rushing around.

Speaker 1 If Ug was on the move, the blood drops on the floor would have had this tail aspect to them, like the momentum of his movement would have caused the blood to hit the floor with momentum too, making them not perfectly round or in oval shapes, like if a person was just standing there or moving really slowly.

Speaker 1 And in her opinion, these were just kind of pooling on the floor in sort of a circular shape. So basically what she's saying is that he couldn't have been moving around frantically.

Speaker 2 I guess that stuff kind of makes sense. It doesn't explain the washing or burying the knife thing.

Speaker 2 I don't know, not having a weapon at a suicide isn't just like a small red flag to overlook. It's kind of a fundamental part of the case.

Speaker 1 Listen. I agree.

Speaker 1 And on top of that, there is one other thing that at least points to the potential of foul play.

Speaker 1 There are some wounds that the ME does say could be defensive wounds, like a superficial injury on the left side of his forehead and a small bruise on his right forearm.

Speaker 2 And that's it?

Speaker 1 That's it. Hence, there could be defensive wounds.
Not definitively are defensive wounds. But even those, it seems like investigators just brush them off.

Speaker 1 And they point to the fact that Ug was a black belt in karate. So what they say is they're like, if someone attacked this guy, he had the skills to fight back.

Speaker 1 And so in turn, they think that he would have suffered far more substantial and very obvious defensive wounds if that's what happened.

Speaker 2 Okay, so what about the main wounds, though? Are there any hesitation marks or anything like that? I just can't fathom, not to be gruesome, but stabbing yourself in the neck.

Speaker 2 all the way to your lung on the first try.

Speaker 1 Yes,

Speaker 1 it's a good question. Honestly, I don't see anything in the research material or the medical examiner's report mentioning something that would have been like a hesitation mark.

Speaker 1 So either there were none or they weren't noted, or the wounds were so deep they couldn't tell or something like that. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Either way, when Ook's family and friends learn about this suicide theory, not only do they flat out reject the idea that he was suicidal, but they think the whole theory is absurd.

Speaker 1 And they point to their own evidence evidence as to why. First off, there was no suicide note.
And then remember, he was out celebrating a promotion on the last night of his life.

Speaker 1 And he was also apparently considering buying property in Argentina and planning to move there. They say he wasn't in some sort of financial difficulties or anything like that.

Speaker 1 Like the dude had money in the bank.

Speaker 2 Right. And I feel like we say this all the time, but I think it bears mentioning again.
You never really know what someone's going through. I mean, he could have had all these things going for him

Speaker 2 and still not be in a good place.

Speaker 1 I totally agree. But there was something else that the family pointed to as well.
And this one I can't totally get past.

Speaker 1 Apparently, Oog couldn't stand the sight of blood. Like the smallest amount made him queasy, according to what his ex-girlfriend Melissa said in a Yahoo News article by Jason Dearden.

Speaker 1 So Even if he is, like you're saying, suffering in silence, he has all these great things going for him, but like something was going on.

Speaker 1 Even if he was going to take his own life, no one who truly knows him thinks that's the way he would do it.

Speaker 2 Did his friends notice anything out of the ordinary that last night out? That he was on a date earlier.

Speaker 1 Maybe that didn't go well? Well, one of his friends does mention that he told him the date didn't go well, but it didn't even seem like a big deal to that friend. Cause remember, Oob dated a lot.

Speaker 1 People say multiple dates a week. So it's not like one bad date would bother him so much that he wants to take his own life.

Speaker 1 And all his friends said the same thing about his demeanor that night, that he was happy and he was smiling, laughing, enjoying himself. And sure, he was also a little drunk.

Speaker 1 They all were a little drunk that night, but he had even made plans with one friend to ride motorcycles the very next day. And then he made plans with another to see a movie.

Speaker 1 So, I mean, you can see why from his family and friends' perspective, Ug seemed to be living his best life.

Speaker 1 Like, this was not on their radar, and they could not have been more surprised when this was the conclusion that investigators were coming to.

Speaker 2 So maybe it was drugs, or maybe something was laced. That's truly the only thing I can think of that would make you do something like that in this way.

Speaker 1 Maybe. I mean, everyone is still waiting on the talks results.
And while they're waiting, actually his parents who live in France decide that they need to head over to the States.

Speaker 1 And this was the part that I actually like found so gut-wrenching. as if they aren't already living a waking nightmare.

Speaker 1 When they come over, they actually have to stay in Ug's apartment where this happened.

Speaker 2 So not only is that horrific, that means there's just zero crime scene preservation here.

Speaker 1 That's also correct. Yeah.
I mean, but that's because SFPD doesn't think that there's a crime. So there's no crime scene.

Speaker 1 Or at least not one that's being like cordoned off for days or weeks to come back to, which as I'm sure you can imagine, just kind of pushes Ug's parents to lose complete faith in the investigation.

Speaker 1 So that's why just eight days after his body is found, his parents start looking into things themselves with the help of a private investigator that they hire named John Murphy.

Speaker 1 Now, John comes and visits the apartment. He starts interviewing Ug's friends and neighbors, and it becomes clear to him that this was indeed a homicide.

Speaker 1 Like he's not just dealing with parents who can't accept the truth. And he keeps pointing back to one simple fact.

Speaker 2 There was no weapon.

Speaker 1 There was no weapon. In an SF Gate article, he makes it super clear.
If Ug had died by suicide, investigators would have found the weapon he used at his feet or in his hand, period.

Speaker 1 And he says, since that didn't happen, there is only one logical reason for what did happen.

Speaker 1 murder. And this PI has his own theory.

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Speaker 1 According to John, he believes Ug was fatally stabbed outside his apartment right on that first landing where the neighbors saw all that blood.

Speaker 1 Ug's father actually demonstrated how this could have gone down in that 48 hours episode. And it makes sense when you see it.

Speaker 1 I'll try to explain the best I can, but we're going to have a photo of the apartment, like I said, in our show notes so you can see.

Speaker 1 But essentially, the theory goes that Ug had come out of his apartment onto this landing above a small set of steps that just go down to the sidewalk.

Speaker 1 Now, they don't know why he was out there to begin with. Maybe he was meeting a friend.
Maybe he was getting some fresh air.

Speaker 2 Who knows? But they don't think he was coming home from his night out. They're sure he was already inside.

Speaker 1 Well, what they're thinking is, so they've got the security camera footage that catches him coming back at 2 a.m. And then I think that they're basing all of this off of what his neighbor heard.

Speaker 1 He heard those noises like 40 minutes later coming from inside Ug's apartment.

Speaker 2 Got it. So if Ug was stabbed around two when he got home, he couldn't have been making noises in the apartment 40 minutes later.
He would have been

Speaker 1 long dead at that point. Right.
So again, they don't know why, but they're thinking he got home at 2 a.m. And then at some point, he comes outside for some reason.

Speaker 1 And then maybe someone walked past, maybe they interacted. That interaction ended with the individual stabbing Oog in the stomach, causing him to bend over.

Speaker 1 And then he was stabbed in the chest and then in the neck.

Speaker 1 Now, their thinking is that Ug would have retreated to his apartment trying to escape the attacker and then closed and locked the door behind him.

Speaker 2 So that keeps the attacker out, hence why there's only one set of bloody shoe prints and they're Oogs.

Speaker 1 Just his. Yes.
And now he is bleeding profusely all over his apartment.

Speaker 2 Right. So he's kind of stumbling all over his apartment, maybe overturns the TV, breaks the wine glass.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, I mean, that's totally possible. We don't know for sure.
I don't think we can make a ton of assumptions because I don't have pictures of exactly what it looked like.

Speaker 1 I mean, again, you could also say that happened in some kind of struggle before there was blood.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess I'm hung up on like the shoe prints. If he's bleeding that profusely, you said there was blood all over the apartment.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 There'd be more shoe prints. Right.

Speaker 1 That's what I mean. Like a struggle only makes sense if it's before he's bleeding.

Speaker 1 So I mean, I think the theory that they came up with, and I think your assumption is is correct, that it was probably when he comes into the house and he's like knocking some stuff over.

Speaker 2 Well, I guess if he's like stumbling around the apartment like this, why not go for the phone? Where was the phone exactly, I guess?

Speaker 1 I know. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
So, the phone is on his coffee table, which from everything that I can gather was near where his body ended up finally resting.

Speaker 1 Or at least from what I understand, it's like Ug would have had to walk by it. So, why he didn't go for it, or again, why he's not calling out to people, he's got neighbors, I don't know.

Speaker 1 They don't offer an explanation for that piece. But

Speaker 1 one thing does become clearer to John the PI when the toxicology finally comes out in July. That toxicology shows that there were no drugs in Ug's system the night of his death.

Speaker 2 Well, that puts a giant hole in police's theory.

Speaker 1 Sure does.

Speaker 1 Also, putting a hole in their theory, tests on the knives from the kitchen that they thought Ug could have used to stab himself and then again, like went and did some dishes, those knives showed no traces of blood.

Speaker 1 So SFPD investigators cannot account for any weapon in the apartment that Ug could have used to stab himself.

Speaker 2 Because this is a homicide.

Speaker 1 But the purpose, like a ghost. This report also reveals that the testing done on the hair and the blood from the scene, all of it belongs to Oog.

Speaker 1 I mean, if there is someone else, there is no trace of this other person anywhere.

Speaker 2 And not even in all the blood outside? I'm convinced that this person never made it inside the apartment. For sure.
That makes sense to me.

Speaker 2 But if the stabbings took place outside, then, I mean, that's where you have to look for evidence. That's where any evidence is going to be.

Speaker 1 I agree. I would want that stuff tested.

Speaker 1 According to an SF Weekly article, though, the blood outside was never tested because SFPD investigators felt that much like the blood evidence inside, the blood pooled in a way that didn't show signs of a struggle.

Speaker 2 Okay, even if you think that you still need to test it.

Speaker 1 I agree.

Speaker 1 And they were criticized, not just by us, but like they were criticized by others for not doing that. Maybe they didn't even collect it.
I don't know. It makes no sense to me.

Speaker 2 All of this aside, based on the PI theory, though, I'm still left with a huge question.

Speaker 1 Why?

Speaker 2 I mean, was this some random attack? Is it wrong place, wrong time? Does someone mistake him for someone else?

Speaker 1 I don't get the motive. It's not clear.
And it's something that Oog's family and friends start to really think about.

Speaker 1 I mean, as far as they were concerned, he had no known enemies, but that didn't mean he might not have made one.

Speaker 1 I mean, in that 48 Hours Mystery episode, one of Ug's friends talks about how Ug didn't care if someone had a boyfriend or a husband.

Speaker 1 So, I mean, he said basically like his friend was just looking for sex from anyone and everyone.

Speaker 2 And yeah, maybe if they were attached, had a significant other.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 He might not even know that someone is after him or jealous or whatever.

Speaker 1 Exactly. It's like maybe he had an enemy that he didn't even know was an enemy, I think, kind of thing.

Speaker 1 And John actually looks into this idea. I'm not sure if he's going back and interviewing old dates or what.

Speaker 1 But in doing this, he doesn't find anything to prove that someone Ug went on a date with, like, had a grudge or any potential, like, disgruntled partners. There's nothing pointing to anyone.

Speaker 2 But it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but like, you can't prove that. You know what I mean? Like, you can't do much with like the things it doesn't prove.

Speaker 2 Right, we can't prove that it does, can't prove that it doesn't. Stalemate.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but that doesn't, that doesn't mean that they just, like, give up. In fact, by October.
John's not even the only one looking into Ug's death anymore.

Speaker 1 You see, because Oog is a dual citizen in the U.S.

Speaker 1 and France, once the French government gets word of his death, they actually send an investigator of their own who's based in Los Angeles to take a look at things.

Speaker 1 And to the family's surprise, this French investigator gets a hold of Ug's computer, which like up to this point, no one had been able to examine.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry, what computer?

Speaker 1 Yeah, they didn't really talk about it before this, which is why I didn't bring it up. I guess they had taken one from his apartment after he died, but apparently they couldn't actually get into it.

Speaker 1 They didn't know the password or whatever. So the French investigator, he actually brings in two computer experts and somehow they're able to get in.

Speaker 1 And what this new investigator finds is that on the night U got home from the club and not long before whatever happened happened, he was doing the typical things most people do on their computers, like surfing the internet.

Speaker 1 He's on dating sites. He's looking at real estate in Argentina, like you've you've been talking about.

Speaker 1 Not that most people are looking at real estate in Argentina, but like again, he specifically, that was a thing for him. But like you get the point.
This dude is just scrolling, essentially.

Speaker 2 Right. No searches related to suicide, no concerning sites, just really your average internet browse.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 Nothing is out of the ordinary, which they take to SFPD and they're like, hey, look, this should show you where his head was right before he died.

Speaker 1 But even with this, this, the SFPD still refuses to list his death as a possible homicide.

Speaker 1 And the situation is just becoming so frustrating to Ug's friends that in February of 2008, a group of them led by his ex-girlfriend Melissa actually file a complaint with the San Francisco Police Commission.

Speaker 1 But even more infuriating, They don't even get a response in return.

Speaker 1 So a month later, they file a complaint with the the Office of Citizen Complaints, arguing that investigators were deliberately overlooking proof of a murder and their investigation was insufficient.

Speaker 1 And when this is happening, this is about the same time that journalists back in France have learned about what's going on in the U.S. or this investigation or maybe lack thereof.

Speaker 1 And they start picking up the story there, adding even more pressure for answers.

Speaker 1 And this seems to work in Oog's family's favor because in June of 2008, two more detectives and a magistrate judge arrived from Paris to investigate his death.

Speaker 1 In that 48 Hours Mystery episode, it says that they were allowed to do this under some quote rarely used treaty between the U.S. and France.

Speaker 1 And so this gives the family hope, hope that they haven't had in almost a whole year. The French investigators don't mess around either.
They start at the beginning, Ug's apartment.

Speaker 1 They review all the material, retest all the evidence, and interview over 50 people. This includes all the witnesses and all of Ug's friends.

Speaker 1 In that same 48 hours episode, one of Ug's friends says, quote, I was interrogated by the French police. I was a suspect.

Speaker 1 I loved it because I was really certain that those people were doing real police work, end quote.

Speaker 2 Uh, I wish you guys could see my little eyes perk up, ears perk up. Oh my goodness.
What friend is a suspect?

Speaker 1 And why did they love being one?

Speaker 1 Add that to a list of firsts. It's not something I've ever heard ever, but I don't think this friend was like a real suspect.
As far as I know, he didn't have a motive or a reason to kill Oob.

Speaker 1 From like the bigger context of like when this quote was made, I think it more reflects just the fact that they're just happy that the police were really working this case or some investigator was like really giving it the due diligence it needed.

Speaker 2 Right. Like if he's been named a suspect or whatever, it means that someone is doing some work.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Police from an entirely different country finally doing the things that SFPD should have been doing this whole time.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Exactly.
That was it. Now, by January of 2009, the family gets word that French investigators have completed their work.

Speaker 1 They put together a 2,000-page report of their findings, and in it, they declare that Ug

Speaker 1 was in fact the victim of a homicide. But that's not all.
They also announce that they've discovered new evidence that could lead them to his killer.

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Speaker 1 In retesting all of the evidence, French investigators discovered unknown DNA on Oog's watch band. And remember, that watch was found broken under Oog's body.

Speaker 1 Now, frustratingly, I have zero info on how good this profile is. What was done with it? Who did they compare it against? I have all the questions.

Speaker 1 But all we know from our research is that the DNA was not Oog's. But as you can imagine, when his loved ones hear this, they're floored.

Speaker 1 Even though they don't have a match necessarily to the sample, and even though it actually might turn out to be from something totally innocuous, like it might not be from the time he was killed, it is more than they had before.

Speaker 2 Exactly. And at the very least, this means that Oog had contact with someone, someone they can find and talk to and ask to explain why their DNA got on this watch.

Speaker 1 Agreed, but to be clear, Oog's father's theory is that it's not innocuous. He says his son always wore his watch on his right wrist.

Speaker 1 So the thought is maybe he could have raised that arm to protect himself. And then the watch gets somehow broken in the process and the attacker's DNA.

Speaker 1 Maybe it's blood, for example, maybe it's rubbed off or maybe the attacker grabs his arm, whatever it is, but the attacker's DNA gets left behind on the watch.

Speaker 1 And then again, Ug runs to his house to like retreat, goes in by himself, and then the watch falls off and lands underneath him.

Speaker 1 So to find the who of it all, whose DNA, East Bay Times reports that the family offers $100,000 reward for information leading to an arrest and conviction.

Speaker 1 They also asked the SFPD to open a murder investigation. And while that doesn't exactly happen, something does happen to move the needle.

Speaker 1 In August of 2009, a new chief of police comes into power at the SFPD, and he does recognize the need for a third party in Ug's case. So he asks his former department, the LAPD, to look into it.

Speaker 2 That's almost unheard of.

Speaker 1 For sure. I mean, no police department wants another police department in their backyard checking their work, so to speak.
But it needed to be checked here.

Speaker 1 And I don't think any department should be afraid of a second set of eyes or more resources because honestly, SFPD just weren't getting it done. And I'm not saying it was the investigator's fault.

Speaker 1 It sounds like they didn't even have the resources they might have needed. But there was a lot of talk at the time of reforming the SFPD because of how low homicide closure rates were.

Speaker 1 So in my mind, I'm like, welcome the help, you know?

Speaker 2 Yeah, seriously.

Speaker 1 Because in 2007, the same year that Ug died, there were 98 murders in San Francisco.

Speaker 1 And the SFPD only solved about a third of them, which was lower than the national clearance rate of 50%, which is still low.

Speaker 2 Well, right. And you have to wonder, is 98 really all the homicides? Or do you have a bunch that are being listed as something else?

Speaker 1 Whether it's because undetermined.

Speaker 2 You're trying to pat the stats or, you know, you're just not getting it done, like you said.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And when we talk about resources, I mean, here's the ugly truth.
The lead investigator on Ug's case was assigned two other homicide cases that week alone.

Speaker 2 So this guy is working like three new homicides in one week.

Speaker 1 Plus, I mean, that's just that week. Most cases aren't getting solved in a week.
Like he probably already has other cases. So you got three this week.
How many the week before?

Speaker 1 How many the week after? And you begin to wonder how much time could he even really be able to give this case? A case that I think needed extra attention considering the circumstances.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And then it goes back to why were they pushing the suicide theory so hard? Was it because it was just the easier path? It closes a case faster.

Speaker 1 That's basically the conclusion that Oog's ex Melissa comes to, that they just didn't want to investigate this as a murder at all.

Speaker 1 But there were other families of other victims that felt some of the delays and incompetence happening with other cases around this time actually had more to do with them trying to keep those homicide numbers down.

Speaker 1 Even if they're not great, like, was the reality even worse?

Speaker 1 But however we got here, the LAPD are at least here now.

Speaker 1 And not long after the LAPD is given the case to review, Ug's parents and Melissa meet with the new chief, and he surprises them with something that they didn't expect.

Speaker 1 Apparently, way back in February, the SFPD received a report from an independent medical examiner. out of Marin County, which is about an hour north of San Francisco, who had reviewed this case.

Speaker 2 Wait, February, that's like seven months ago?

Speaker 1 Yeah, seven months ago. And there may be a reason that it had been kept under wraps till now, a reason that maybe they were hesitant to share it.

Speaker 1 Because the Marin County Medical Examiner concluded that Oog was the victim of homicide.

Speaker 2 Which would be the last thing the SFPD would want to hear.

Speaker 1 I mean, it doesn't look good, primarily, because this guy who's now doing this other review had previously worked with the SF medical examiner's office.

Speaker 1 So the Marin County medical examiner determined that Oob most likely died within one to two minutes, which they say is why he probably never even had time to call 911.

Speaker 1 And this medical examiner also found evidence of blood splatter along the outside step wall that would be consistent. with a knife going into someone and then being pulled out.

Speaker 2 Which is kind of what his family's theory has been all along.

Speaker 1 It is, like that he got attacked outside somewhere.

Speaker 2 And this is now the second independent review calling Oog's death a homicide.

Speaker 1 It is. And like, you would think, again, they got this report seven months ago, but at some point you would think the SFPD is like, okay, two people are saying this.
Maybe we made a mistake here.

Speaker 1 But according to that 48 Hours Mystery episode, their medical examiner stands by the call of undetermined and refuses to change the ruling.

Speaker 2 Does it matter now that it's with the LAPD?

Speaker 1 Well, it's technically not though. So they're brought in to take a look to like give their thoughts or consult or whatever, but it's not actually their case.
Like it is still technically with SFPD.

Speaker 2 LAPD is just like reviewing essentially.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it takes a month. But after that month, that's when the LAPD review of the case actually comes in.
Like, I know you're usually sitting down, but do you want to sit down for this one?

Speaker 2 I am sitting, but let's maybe warn the listeners.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Then warn everyone to move anything around you that you might want to throw.

Speaker 1 No. According to an ABC 7 Bay Area piece from 2009, the LAPD ultimately agrees with the SFPD's original view of the case that Oog

Speaker 1 probably died by suicide.

Speaker 1 But how?

Speaker 1 It's a good question. There isn't anything in the stuff that's been made available to the public or the stuff that I was able to find that gives specifics.

Speaker 1 I know that their CSI team looked at it also. So LAPD must have seen something in the evidence to support a suicide theory or to at least consider it the most likely of theories.

Speaker 1 But what it is that they're pointing to,

Speaker 1 we just don't know. And to me, like, why not just clear up some of the questions? So, you know, we're not here asking all of these same questions, you know, however many years later.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Now, LAPD's report wasn't all sunshine and rainbows for SFPD. I mean, they in it said they found several problems with the investigation.

Speaker 1 And this corresponds with what Oog's ex-girlfriend Melissa eventually received back from the Office of Citizen Complaints.

Speaker 1 Like, they said they didn't find misconduct per se in the investigation, but they acknowledged that the investigation fell fell short.

Speaker 2 Which to me is misconduct, but whatever.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Like if it didn't do a good enough job.

Speaker 1 But it's maybe it's not that it's like not intentional or devious. I don't know.
And Britt, that's basically where this case is left standing today, still

Speaker 1 kind of in this limbo.

Speaker 2 No one else has taken a look at it or reopened it?

Speaker 1 At least nothing that has been made public.

Speaker 2 Okay, that one like glimmer of hope we had earlier, the DNA from the watch, was it at least entered into CODIS or something?

Speaker 1 I searched up and down. I can't find anything that said it was put into CODIS.
It doesn't mean that it wasn't.

Speaker 1 Maybe it was put in and there's no match, or maybe it was put in and they found something, but it was explained away. Like there's all these details we just don't have.
And so we just don't know.

Speaker 1 I do know that Oog's family and friends still feel that his death could be and should be solved.

Speaker 1 And if they're right about what they think happened to their son, that means that somewhere out there, maybe still prowling the streets of San Francisco, a killer could remain free.

Speaker 1 So, if you have any information on the death of Hug de la Plaza, please contact the San Francisco Police Department at 1-415-553-0123.

Speaker 1 Or if you'd like to stay anonymous, you can reach their anonymous tip line at 1-415-575-4444.

Speaker 1 You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.

Speaker 2 And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.

Speaker 1 We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

Speaker 1 Crime Junkie is an audio chuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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