The Roofman, Part 2

Speaker 1 Support for criminal comes from BetterHelp.

Speaker 2 Many American adults get the blues this time of year, sometimes as a result of seasonal affective disorder.

Speaker 4 But BetterHelp wants to encourage you to reach out, get coffee with an old friend, write a letter to a family member, and take that first step to connect with a licensed therapist using BetterHelp.

Speaker 5 This month, don't wait to reach out.

Speaker 4 Whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist yourself, BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step.

Speaker 4 You can get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com slash criminal.

Speaker 6 That's betterhelp.com slash criminal.

Speaker 1 Support for criminal comes from Ollie.

Speaker 3 Having a happy, healthy dog starts with what you put in their bowl.

Speaker 5 That's why Ollie delivers fresh, human-grade food that your dog will love.

Speaker 6 Go to ollie.com slash Phoebe.

Speaker 5 Tell them all about your dog and use code Phoebe to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today.

Speaker 4 Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box.

Speaker 2 So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back.

Speaker 7 That's o-l-l-ie-e.com slash Phoebe and enter code Phoebe to get 60% off your first box.

Speaker 9 This episode picks up where our last episode left off. If you haven't heard the first part yet, we recommend going back and listening to that first.

Speaker 10 I actually happened to be on vacation in Florida when the detective from Sacramento Police Department called me and he said, hey, Sky, he escaped. I said, ha ha.

Speaker 10 Right. Uh-huh.
What's going on? How are you doing? He goes, no.

Speaker 10 Manchester escaped prison.

Speaker 9 On June 15th, 2004, Jeffrey Manchester, who had been serving a 45-year sentence for armed robberies at two McDonald's restaurants, escaped from a North Carolina prison.

Speaker 10 I said, you have got to be kidding me.

Speaker 10 He said, nope, nope. He busted out.
He got out somehow.

Speaker 9 Sky Polly was a special agent for the California Department of Justice. He'd been assigned to investigate a series of robberies that had taken place across California and later eight other states.

Speaker 9 They were known as the Rooftop Robberies.

Speaker 9 And he believed Jeffrey Manchester was behind all of them.

Speaker 10 Was I surprised that he escaped?

Speaker 10 Not really.

Speaker 10 I was not surprised because of the way he was able to to get away with so many armed robberies. He had virtually nothing to lose and he had the skills and abilities.

Speaker 12 It was pretty interesting and I got to give him kudos for that.

Speaker 9 Catherine Scheimreif is a former sergeant for the Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department.

Speaker 12 You know,

Speaker 12 when things like this happen, you have to realize it's usually human error.

Speaker 12 And we're humans. We make mistakes.

Speaker 9 Jeffrey Manchester was described as a model prisoner during the four years he was in prison.

Speaker 9 He started working in the prison's metal shop, where he and more than 50 other inmates worked on building things like prison beds, lockers, and jungle gyms.

Speaker 9 Trucks would occasionally bring supplies into the metal shop.

Speaker 9 On the day of his escape, prison officials believed that Jeffrey Manchester climbed up underneath a truck and clung to the undercarriage in what one reporter described as a spider-like style.

Speaker 12 He was able to fasten a board underneath the truck that supported him enough so that he could ride out of the prison, you know, undetected.

Speaker 12 Now, you have,

Speaker 12 you know, different things in place. You take a mirror and you look underneath the truck and you

Speaker 12 have people watching and people counting and supposed to be paying attention, but he was able to observe the prison officials' behaviors and when and at what point they let their guard down and that error, that human error,

Speaker 12 came forward. And so he was able to just ride out the truck.

Speaker 9 The truck left around 3 p.m.

Speaker 9 Prison guards noticed that Jeffrey Manchester was missing during a routine check around 3.30.

Speaker 9 An official told reporters that once the truck was parked outside the gates, Jeffrey Manchester ran off on foot.

Speaker 9 It was the first time that anyone had managed to escape from Brown Creek Correctional.

Speaker 2 Do you remember hearing that he had escaped from prison?

Speaker 13 Oh my lord, yes.

Speaker 9 Mervat Fayed and her co-workers had been held up by Jeffrey Manchester while he robbed a McDonald's in Belmont, North Carolina, four years earlier.

Speaker 9 She'd identified him to police and testified about the robbery.

Speaker 9 She'd also described the robbery to a reporter, saying that Jeffrey Manchester was, quote, really polite.

Speaker 9 After his escape from prison, a police officer came by the McDonald's where she was working at the time.

Speaker 14 The sheriff officer came in and said, I would like to let you know something that he escaped from jail, but we will have

Speaker 14 officers for the next few days just keep an eye on you guys to make sure. But I just want you to know, just in case he's going to come back for a retaliation or anything, that you know he's there.

Speaker 9 Were you worried?

Speaker 14 I was worried, but at the same time, I'm like, I didn't say anything bad about him.

Speaker 14 If there was anyone that said something good about him, it was me, that he was nice, but I just, it never crossed my mind that he would ever come back to do something because knowing that he's from California, I thought he would just go somewhere else.

Speaker 10 I kind of figured he'd be on the beach with the margarita, but nope.

Speaker 2 I'm Phoebe Judge.

Speaker 9 This is Criminal.

Speaker 9 We'll be right back.

Speaker 1 Support for criminal comes from BetterHelp.

Speaker 2 The holidays can be a wonderful, but often hectic and sometimes lonely time of year.

Speaker 7 Therapy can help you make sure you're taking care of yourself, no matter what.

Speaker 2 BetterHelp does the initial matching work to find the right therapist for you so you can focus on your goals in the short and long term.

Speaker 7 This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you.

Speaker 1 Our listeners get 10% off at betterhelp.com/slash criminal.

Speaker 6 That's betterhelp.com/slash criminal.

Speaker 15 With the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One, you can earn a limited 2% cash back on every purchase.

Speaker 16 And you get big purchasing power so your business can spend more and earn more.

Speaker 15 Stephen Brandon and Bruno, the business owners of SandCloud, reinvested their 2% cash back to help build their retail presence.

Speaker 13 Now, that's serious business.

Speaker 15 What could the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One do for your business?

Speaker 12 Capital One, what's in your wallet?

Speaker 18 Find out more at capital one.com slash spark cash plus. Terms apply.

Speaker 9 In the days after Jeffrey Manchester escaped from prison in North Carolina, police in Sacramento, California warned that the so-called roof man might be headed back to the state.

Speaker 9 His ex-wife and children still live there.

Speaker 9 But in reality, Jeffrey Manchester didn't go very far at all.

Speaker 9 In 2004, there was a Toys R Us located in Charlotte off of Route 74, a busy four-lane highway.

Speaker 9 40 miles away, the same road runs right by Brown Creek Correctional.

Speaker 12 It's one of the first locations that you, general area that you come to when you come to Charlotte, when coming from Brown Creek.

Speaker 12 And so he goes into the store like a patron and starts walking around like anybody would. And so nobody really paid him attention.

Speaker 12 It's not like, you know, you kind of think, well, he's going to be nervous or he's going to, you know, portray different body language that shows that he's doing something wrong, but no, he just acted like a regular guy, which is what you really should do.

Speaker 12 And it's kind of like when you're, when you're undercover, you just kind of breathe normal, you walk normal, you act normal, or else people are going to sense that something's wrong.

Speaker 9 At some point, Jeffrey Manchester decided that when the store closed for the day, he wasn't going to leave.

Speaker 12 There was everything he needed there. There was a hiding spot, and

Speaker 12 he took advantage of it. Maybe he's just like, this is going to be so much better than sleeping on the street or on a bench, park bench where somebody's going to detect you.

Speaker 12 This has actually got heat and water and electricity and, you know, everything you need.

Speaker 9 How was he able to hide out in the store? Where was he sleeping?

Speaker 12 Well, so there was a bike display in the back of the store. And so he hid behind the bike display and he set up a mattress and he got him a little blankie and he got him, you know, something to eat.

Speaker 12 and and so he just stayed back there. He slept during the day and was out at night.

Speaker 12 There was stuff that he would steal from the store and he would go out on the on the street to different places and pawn them to get money.

Speaker 9 And what was he eating things from this?

Speaker 9 Is there food in a Toys R Us?

Speaker 12 Oh yeah, there's baby food. There's baby food and stuff like that.

Speaker 12 So yeah, candy, lots of candy.

Speaker 9 Jeffrey Manchester lived out of the Toys R Us for several months.

Speaker 9 At night, he would race race remote control cars on the roof and ride bikes around the store

Speaker 9 how how did he escape security cameras

Speaker 12 because he was able to go into the office he was able to sign on and manipulate that system he literally read the the handbook on it and started turning cameras on and off as he saw fit and

Speaker 12 then interestingly enough he started getting into the employees the scheduling. And so, if he had employees that he didn't like, he'd jack their schedule up when they worked and when they didn't work.

Speaker 12 And I'm kind of laughing about this because you got to see humor in it.

Speaker 12 But he found different ways to occupy his mind.

Speaker 9 So, the Toys R Us would close five o'clock, whatever time.

Speaker 9 Lights would go off, doors would be locked, and then this guy would have free rein, candy and security cameras and riding bikes up and down the aisles.

Speaker 12 Yeah, exactly. Skateboards.
Yeah, you got to make the best of your time.

Speaker 9 As the holiday season got closer and more and more shoppers were in the store, Jeffrey Manchester decided to move. But he didn't go far.

Speaker 9 He went to the store next door, which used to be a Circuit City.

Speaker 12 So they actually shared a wall. So as you're facing the building, the Toys R Us was on the right.
And then on the left, it was the Circuit City.

Speaker 12 Now, the Circuit City was vacant and had been, they'd been trying to sell sell it for a while. So there's absolutely nothing in there.
And again, it was perfect as well. It had power.
It had air.

Speaker 12 You know, everything that you need for comfort.

Speaker 9 Underneath the stairwell, he built a small room to live in. He painted the walls, put up posters, and a toy basketball hoop, and had a DVD player.

Speaker 12 His bed was made up with Spider-Man sheets, and

Speaker 12 he had toys and gadgets around.

Speaker 12 And he had his little camera system where he had taken baby monitors from the Toys R Us and had set up different lenses looking into the Toys R Us so he could see the comings and goings of everybody.

Speaker 12 So he, again, if he had to go over there, he wouldn't alert anybody.

Speaker 9 Jeffrey Manchester built a passageway between the Circuit City and the Toys R Us.

Speaker 9 It was underneath some shelving in the Toys R Us back storage area. He would move some sheetrock in and out of place in order to get through.

Speaker 12 And it was enough for him to get through. And I think he made it big enough so he could get a bicycle through, pull a bicycle through there as well.

Speaker 12 He also fashioned himself a way to get in and out of the Circuit City as well through the roof.

Speaker 12 So there was also a trapdoor, if you will, in the roof that he constructed so he'd get in and out that way too, if he couldn't go through the Toys R Us.

Speaker 19 All during this time,

Speaker 9 were the police on the lookout for him?

Speaker 12 Oh, yes, because the alarm in the circus city kept going off all the time. And police officers on the street, that's nothing that they enjoy more than going to the same alarm call over and over again.

Speaker 12 Obviously, there's something wrong. And it's not like you can't not go.

Speaker 12 And so they kept having to go over there and trying to figure out what the heck is going on without being able to go into the building.

Speaker 12 Because just because the alarm's going off doesn't mean you can go in, if that makes sense.

Speaker 9 Jeffrey Manchester started to venture out more and more in october of 2004 he started attending crossroads presbyterian church it was a short walk from the circuit city

Speaker 9 he told the pastor there that his name was john people in church are very unsuspecting they're welcoming they want new members and so they're not going to be suspicious of him it's perfect place he went to bible study on wednesday nights He started volunteering in the church's outreach program for families in need, often bringing by toys.

Speaker 9 In November, he went to a singles lunch at the church, where he met a woman in the middle of a divorce after a 20-year marriage.

Speaker 12 She's a mom, kind-hearted, giving, and just like him, was in probably in need of companionship. And so they struck up a relationship through the church.
And again, wouldn't you just feel so protected?

Speaker 12 Hey, I met this guy at church. He's got to be a good guy.

Speaker 12 And then he convinces her that he's a government agent.

Speaker 9 Jeffrey Manchester told her that he couldn't say exactly what he did for the government, but that he lived in a government building. He described it as a, quote, sterile environment.

Speaker 12 And she has no reason to doubt him. And I don't blame her a bit.
I really don't. I really don't.

Speaker 12 You know, she saw whatever goodness in him. He was good to her children, I assume.
He was showing up at church with toys for the kids, albeit they were stolen.

Speaker 12 And so, you know, she invited him into her home, into her life, into the kids' life.

Speaker 9 They'd go to movies and concerts. And Jeffrey Manchester needed more money.
He'd been selling stolen items from the Toys R Us, but it wasn't enough.

Speaker 12 He had this image he had to upkeep, whether it's clothes or, you know, clean hair, clean shaven. So he needed money.

Speaker 12 So he goes to a pawn shop in Matthews, which is an adjoining town, and he goes through the roof of the pawn shop and he steals is either three or four guns.

Speaker 9 A few days after Thanksgiving, as employees came in to open the Toys R Us, Jeffrey Manchester surprised them. He took money from the registers in the safe.

Speaker 9 Police said he was wearing a black Lion King hat.

Speaker 9 Workers told police police he had exited the store through a back door.

Speaker 12 So he pushes the back door, which sets off the alarm. So everybody's thinking, oh, he went out the back door, which in actuality, he just went over to the Circuit City and laid there for a while.

Speaker 12 Probably went down, took a nap or something along those lines while the police come in and try to figure out what happened.

Speaker 9 And did the police have any idea about who might have robbed the store?

Speaker 12 Oh, at that time, no.

Speaker 12 No clue whatsoever.

Speaker 12 Didn't know, just thought it was a regular robbery. In a city this size, you have a lot of

Speaker 12 violent crime, unfortunately, and that includes our robberies.

Speaker 9 In the following weeks, Jeffrey Manchester went to his church's Christmas party, dressed as the Easter bunny. He reportedly gave the pastor Seinfeld DVDs.

Speaker 9 And on Christmas Day, he gave his girlfriend a pair of diamond earrings.

Speaker 9 Early the next morning, he decided to rob the Toys R Us again.

Speaker 9 He came into the store wearing a black hooded sweatshirt and a bulletproof vest.

Speaker 9 This time, in addition to several employees who are opening the store, there is an off-duty sheriff's deputy there who is working a second job as a security guard.

Speaker 9 Jeffrey Manchester ordered everyone to get onto the ground, including the sheriff's deputy.

Speaker 12 And said he was going to kill her

Speaker 12 and got her down on the ground

Speaker 12 and struggled to get her her weapon out of her holster.

Speaker 12 And we are trained, you do not give up your gun for anything. Do not give up your gun, do not give up your gun.
For whatever reason, and I do not blame her, she gave up her weapon.

Speaker 12 And

Speaker 12 as he took her gun from her,

Speaker 12 everything went sideways for him.

Speaker 9 The employees started to run.

Speaker 12 He realized, oh, I am so screwed right now

Speaker 12 because they're going to call the police.

Speaker 12 So he makes his way to the back, but he forgets to trip the door alarm at the back, and he just goes in his little hidey hole and goes over to the Circuit City.

Speaker 12 The police get there and they tell them right away he's in the, he's got to be in here.

Speaker 12 He ran towards the back and we didn't hear the back door alarm go off. So he's in here.

Speaker 9 Police started searching the Toys R Us.

Speaker 9 They noticed a sheetrock board against the wall under a shelf in the storage area and a single screw that was holding it in place.

Speaker 9 When they undid the screw, the door fell, and they found the secret passageway leading to the Circuit City. Another door behind it was held shut with a bungee cord.

Speaker 9 Police also found about $7,000 worth of toys stuffed into the ceiling tiles.

Speaker 9 But they didn't find Jeffrey Manchester or his living space, which was well hidden.

Speaker 12 So a couple of my detectives came to me and said, Hey, Sarge, this guy

Speaker 12 is out and about in East Charlotte, and he held a sheriff's deputy at gunpoint and took her gun.

Speaker 12 We'd like to find him. And I said, absolutely, let's move on it.
Taking a gun from a law enforcement officer and holding her hostage, yeah, that's something that definitely sets off a bell in my head.

Speaker 12 So things started rolling after that pretty quickly.

Speaker 9 At the time, Catherine Scheimreif was leading a violent crimes task force for the Charlotte Mecklenburg Police.

Speaker 9 Were you kind of working in a situation where in the movies, you'd be the type of people who are not wearing uniforms and kind of driving unmarked cars.

Speaker 9 And this is kind of like the Wild West people in my mind.

Speaker 12 Well, yeah, yeah, that's pretty good. That's a good analogy.

Speaker 12 Yes, we wore plain clothes, blue jeans, you know, cowboy boots, t-shirts, whatever, long hair,

Speaker 12 and, you know, not entirely clean shaven.

Speaker 12 Not for me, of course, but my men. And then we would drive the undercover cars.

Speaker 12 I think I drove, you know, Dodge Durango or a, you know, a Camaro or a, you know, a Mustang or something along those lines that would blend in for surveillance. And again, the covert operations.

Speaker 12 We were doing drug deals. We were doing gun deals.

Speaker 12 You know, taking down these

Speaker 12 high-profile offenders, you really have to be on your game because it's incredibly dangerous. You have to have, you know, that advanced skill set.

Speaker 12 It was a constant thing. It was very, very intense.

Speaker 9 Catherine Sheimreif says she hadn't heard about Jeffrey Manchester's escape from prison.

Speaker 12 That's not really something that we would have been told about. I know that sounds strange,

Speaker 12 but Charlotte's an enormous city. There's a million plus people.
There's a lot of crime, you know, violent crime. It's a busy place.
That's not really something that would stick out.

Speaker 12 And at that point in time, I believe Department of Corrections, who runs the prisons, and the State Bureau of Investigation, they're the ones that's more in their lane, if you will.

Speaker 12 But when he started committing robberies here and held the deputy at gunpoint, that's when it becomes my problem.

Speaker 9 A week later, a police officer named Fred Allen went into the vacant circuit city again.

Speaker 9 He noticed that when he turned the lights on, one area of the building stayed dark, and then he noticed a board of sheetrock covering the wall, like the one they had found in the Toys R Us, covering the secret passageway.

Speaker 9 When he pushed it, he found Jeffrey Manchester's living space, but no one was there.

Speaker 12 I actually went in there, and I was impressed, basically, because he was very neat and methodical.

Speaker 9 Inside, police found baby food jars, posters of Superman, and a Van Gogh print, and a map of local bus routes.

Speaker 9 They also found Star Wars toys, the movies Spider-Man 2 and Matchstick Men, and a fire extinguisher.

Speaker 9 Police also found a fingerprint inside the space and matched it to Jeffrey Manchester.

Speaker 9 They decided to put out a wanted poster and told the media that prison escapee Jeffrey Manchester had been seen in the area.

Speaker 9 The next day, Jeffrey Manchester lit a building on fire.

Speaker 9 We'll be right back.

Speaker 1 Support for criminal comes from Saks 5th Avenue.

Speaker 5 Saks 5th Avenue makes it easy to do holiday shopping your way, whether you're looking for the right gift or the right outfit.

Speaker 5 Sacks is where you can find everything from a Jimmy Chew bag for a sister who's hard to shop for to a Prada jacket for yourself to dress up for holiday dinner.

Speaker 5 If you don't know where to start, Sachs.com will filter just for items that match your personal style so you can save time shopping and spend more time just enjoying the holidays.

Speaker 3 Make shopping fun and easy this season and find gifts that suit your holiday style at Saks 5th Avenue.

Speaker 15 With the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One, you can earn a limited 2% cash back on every purchase.

Speaker 16 And you get big purchasing power so your business can spend more and earn more.

Speaker 15 Stephen Brandon and Bruno, the business owners of SandCloud, reinvested their 2% cash back to help build their retail presence.

Speaker 13 Now, that's serious business.

Speaker 18 What could the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One do for your business?

Speaker 16 Capital One, what's in your wallet?

Speaker 18 Find out more at capital1.com/slash spark cash plus. Terms apply.

Speaker 9 On Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, around 4 in the morning, fire trucks were called to an office building off of Route 74, about a 10-minute drive from the Toys R Us.

Speaker 9 A dentist's office was on fire, and when firefighters put it out, they discovered the fire had been started on purpose.

Speaker 9 Jeffrey Manchester had been a patient there.

Speaker 12 The way I understand it, because all the candy, he got some teeth issues, went to the dentist, he got treatment for his cavities, and then he also got some whitening trays.

Speaker 12 And the whitening trays had the dentist's office name on them. And that was left in the little room where he had been staying.

Speaker 12 And I can only suspect in his mind, he's thinking, oh my gosh, they've got the name of the dentist, and they're going to go read my

Speaker 12 dental records and realize that it's me, that I'm here. So let me go burn it down.

Speaker 12 And so he proceeds to burn the dentist office down.

Speaker 9 In the meantime, two members of Jeffrey Manchester's church saw the wanted poster that police had released of him and contacted police.

Speaker 12 Some people showed up at the local police station and said, hey, we know this guy.

Speaker 12 And his name is not Jeffrey Manchester. It's John Zorin because we know him from church.

Speaker 12 And and he's dating somebody.

Speaker 9 Police went to talk with Jeffrey Manchester's girlfriend.

Speaker 19 They found her at work.

Speaker 9 And when they showed her a photo of Jeffrey Manchester, she said, that's John.

Speaker 12 Well, she was in shock and she was...

Speaker 12 You have to put yourself in her place and you have to be very sensitive to that. And it's an emotional time.
It's probably the most shocking news she'll receive in her entire lifetime.

Speaker 12 And you have to be sensitive to that and try to keep things calm.

Speaker 9 His girlfriend later told a reporter, I was numb. I was hysterical.

Speaker 9 They'd been dating for almost two months.

Speaker 9 Catherine says it wasn't until police showed her John's picture on the America's Most Wanted site that she believed them.

Speaker 12 And it was that moment where she's like, oh, okay.

Speaker 12 Okay, yeah, I'll definitely help you.

Speaker 9 It happened to be her 40th birthday.

Speaker 9 The police asked her to call Jeffrey Manchester and invite him to come over that evening to celebrate.

Speaker 12 When you're undercover, you got to act normal. You got to talk normal.
It's got to be like a regular conversation, or else he's going to know something's up.

Speaker 12 And she was able to play into that and

Speaker 12 keep her senses about her, which is not easy to do in that kind of an emotional time at all.

Speaker 9 That evening, police stationed themselves around her apartment.

Speaker 12 I'm in the parking lot.

Speaker 12 I'm in an undercover vehicle, and

Speaker 12 I'm listening on the radio as everything's going down. And I get a call from one of my detectives.
Hey, Sarge, we're following him.

Speaker 12 He just did a U-turn on independence.

Speaker 12 And so at that time, you're like, okay, well, first thing goes through your mind is we've been made.

Speaker 12 And I said something to the effect of, I told you guys to keep a loose tail.

Speaker 12 What's going on?

Speaker 9 The officers kept following him and watched as he pulled into a grocery store parking lot.

Speaker 9 He walked into the store and walked out a few minutes later with a bouquet of flowers.

Speaker 12 So he gets his flowers. He gets back in the car.
I breathe a huge sigh of relief. And then he starts heading back to the apartment.

Speaker 12 He parks his car. He gets out real quickly.
Looks around a little bit. Heads kind of on a swivel, which is normal.
And then he hurtles over some shrubbery and he's at the front door. And at that time,

Speaker 12 the call's made for people to move in.

Speaker 9 The police surrounded him and put him in handcuffs.

Speaker 12 I remember he wouldn't make eye contact with me

Speaker 12 and he just looked away, like maybe disappointment.

Speaker 12 He just realized it's over.

Speaker 9 After his arrest, Jeffrey Manchester reportedly called his mother. He told Mom, I kind of lost focus.

Speaker 9 He also talked to his girlfriend. She said he apologized.
She told a reporter, I can't say anything bad about him.

Speaker 9 Did he ever explain why he'd done what he did?

Speaker 12 So he said,

Speaker 12 in certain ways, that it was for the money.

Speaker 12 I don't believe that.

Speaker 12 I think it was for the chase. I think it was for the game.
I think it was for the rush.

Speaker 9 Jeffrey Manchester is 53 now. He's currently in central prison in Raleigh.
His projected release date is 2036.

Speaker 9 He's tried to escape twice since he was recaptured, in 2009 and again in 2017.

Speaker 12 I mean, it worked for him in the past. Why not?

Speaker 12 He's just thinking, how do I get out of here? When do I get out of here? And let's get this show going again.

Speaker 9 Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer.
Katie Bishop is our supervising producer.

Speaker 9 Our producers are Susanna Robertson, Jackie Sagiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison, and Megan Kinane.

Speaker 9 Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. This episode was mixed by Michael Rayfield.

Speaker 9 Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at thisiscriminal.com.
And you can sign up for our newsletter at thisiscriminal.com slash newsletter.

Speaker 9 We hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program, Criminal Plus. You can listen to Criminal, This Is Love, and Phoebe Reads a Mystery without any ads.

Speaker 9 Plus, Plus, you'll get bonus episodes.

Speaker 9 These are special episodes with me and criminal co-creator Lauren Spohr, talking about everything from how we make our episodes to the crime stories that caught our attention that week to things we've been enjoying lately.

Speaker 19 To learn more, go to thisiscriminal.com/slash plus.

Speaker 9 We're on Facebook and Twitter at Criminal Show and Instagram at criminal underscore podcast.

Speaker 7 We're also on YouTube at youtube.com slash criminal podcast.

Speaker 9 Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more great shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.

Speaker 7 I'm Phoebe Judge.

Speaker 9 This is Criminal.

Speaker 13 Time. It's always vanishing.
The commute, the errands, the work functions, the meetings, selling your car?

Speaker 13 Unless you sell your car with Carvana. Get a real offer in minutes.
Get it picked up from your door. Get paid on the spot.

Speaker 8 So fast you'll wonder what the catch is. There isn't one.

Speaker 13 We just respect you and your time.

Speaker 3 Oh, you're still here.

Speaker 8 Move along now. Enjoy your day.

Speaker 13 Sell your car today. Carvana.
Pickup fees may apply.

Speaker 20 Support for this show comes from Nature Sunshine all-new Marine Glow Collagen. How much time do you think you spend with a screen in front of your face on any given day?

Speaker 20 Well, if you're anything like the average American, you probably spend about seven hours staring at a screen. Nature Sunshine knows that contact with blue light is unavoidable.

Speaker 20 That's why they've combined the skin-enhancing power of marine collagen and blue light fighting lutein to support your eyes and skin in a blue light-filled world.

Speaker 20 Experience more radiant skin and proven eye protection with Nature Sunshine New Marine Glow, the only collagen product clinically proven to support eye and skin health and defend against blue light.

Speaker 20 Try Nature Sunshine New Marine Glow now at nature sunshine.com.