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Terms apply. What's going to happen to that equation as the TV industry gets smaller and smaller and smaller? On to explain it all is the veteran sports business journalist John O'Ran.
That's this week on Channels from the Vox Media Podcast Network. Hi, it's Phoebe.
Before we get to today's episode, I wanted to let you know that it's longer than usual, because we've included a recent episode of Criminal Plus at the end. In it, Criminal co-creator Lauren Spohr and I take questions from our listeners about anything, from the meals we like to make to the way we score episodes.
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Here's today's new episode. Who is Christopher Kinahan? Christopher Kinahan is probably the most successful and entrepreneurial criminal that Ireland has ever produced.
He is currently a billionaire. He controls much of the cocaine trade in Europe.
It could be argued that he is one of the most prolific criminals that Europe has ever produced. John Mooney is an investigative journalist with the Sunday Times in Dublin.
He reports on organised crime. In the 1980s, Ireland witnessed the arrival of drugs, and that came in the form of heroin, which caused havoc to inner-city communities.
Kenehan was someone who was involved in this business, but wasn't at the pinnacle or the apex of it. At the time, he was employed as a taxi driver, but he appeared to be wholesaling heroin.
He wasn't a street dealer. He was supplying drugs to people who did operate at street level.
But over the years, Christopher Kinahan began to build a large criminal organisation, the Kinahan Cartel. Not a lot of people would have known his name, unlike other serious criminals from that time who had reputations that preceded them and often featured in newspapers and in the tabloids and in, you know, local folklore in certain parts of the city.
They liked the notoriety of being photographed and filmed and having their names and reputations covered in the tabloid press in particular. But Kinahan was very different.
He kind of kept himself to himself. He shunned publicity.
No one really knew a lot about him. Christopher Kinahan has been described as photo-weary.
There aren't many photos of him online or in newspapers. When I've spoken to people who met him at that time, the one thing that always struck them about this guy was he seemed very together, very well-spoken man, well-educated, and could pass himself off as a businessman or someone maybe who, you know, if he had pursued a different type of career, could have got involved in stockbroking or banking or something like that.
So he was a mystery in many ways. The Kinahan cartel is reportedly led today by Christopher Kinahan, who's now in his 60s, and his sons, Daniel and Christopher Jr., both in their 40s.
John Mooney has been investigating Christopher Kinahan and his sons for a long time. I have interviewed lots of people that have spent time with the Kenhans,

people that, for example, the Kinnahans,

people that, for example, have been involved in laundering money for the cartel. I've interviewed paramilitaries that have crossed paths with the Kinnahans.
I've interviewed certain people that had been involved in feuding with the Kinnahans cartel. When you're examining an organisation like this, you really have to be very careful with them because they have huge capabilities, they have infinite finances, and they also have demonstrated time and time again the ability to kill people that get in their way.
I have to say in saying that, I don't think they'd ever be silly enough to do something to a journalist, but we've had journalists killed in Ireland.

So you have to be mindful and very careful and professional when you go about investigating this particular organisation.

John Mooney has never met Christopher Kinahan himself, who's now thought to live in Dubai.

But lots of people have described him to John.

He's heard voicemails Christopher Kinahan has left for people he was angry with.

Thank you. Dubai.
But lots of people have described him to John. He's heard voicemails Christopher Kinahan has left for people he was angry with.
Where he has made threats without making threats. And that's something that I find it almost very difficult to explain.
In one voicemail that was played to me, he was trying to intimidate someone, and he had sent them a series of messages on WhatsApp. And some of them he would end by saying, God bless.
But there was one particular message that struck me as quite intimidating. And in that message he said, I'm not looking for a fight with you.
I thought you didn't want to have an argument with me. So you see yourself as a mouse.
Then that's up to you. Keep your energy levels up.
Goodbye. So that's classic Kinehan.
He kind of says everything, but he says nothing at all.

You can't really make a complaint about something like that.

Not that you would make a complaint against Christy Kinahan,

but what has he said?

When the Irish authorities have tried to press charges against the Kinahans,

they've hit a brick wall.

Partly because Christopher Kinahan left Ireland decades ago. And eventually, John says, the Irish authorities were getting frustrated, so they pulled some strings.
Basically, the Irish government decided to lobby the United States and build a coalition of countries that had an issue with the cartel and had an interest in bringing its leadership to justice. What makes him truly unique is his relationship with hostile states like Iran, terrorist organizations like Hezbollah, and virtually every powerful criminal organization across the world.
So he's a very unique individual. He's highly intelligent.
He's very smart, very savvy, very cosmopolitan. He is not your average criminal.
In 2022, the U.S. government put out a statement saying that the Kinnehan's were wanted for participating in organized crime.
The State Department published three wanted posters, one for Christopher Kinnehan and one each for his sons, Daniel Kinnehan and Christopher Kinnehan Jr., offering a reward of up to $5 million U.S. dollars for each of them to anyone who could provide information that would lead to their arrest or to the so-called financial disruption of the cartel.
After that, people believed the family started moving their money around and became even more protective and secretive. But then, in 2023, a researcher was searching the internet for clues about the Kinahan's activities, and he found something that Christopher Kinahan had written.
Service was good and the staff were pleasant and helpful. The menu caters for non-vegan, dairy and sugar.
I had an acai bowl followed by eggs with almond bread and green

salad. My meal was well presented and tasty.
I give this establishment five stars.

I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.

Christopher Kinahan loved to write online reviews.

He'd posted more than 200 Google reviews of restaurants, hotels, and even airports.

He reviewed government offices and COVID-19 test centers.

In his review of a shopping area in Dubai, he wrote,

Wonderful place to stroll around, particularly in the evening.

Lots of restaurants to choose from.

Family friendly.

I unreservedly rate this area five-star, but not cheap. And he once reviewed a Pret-a-Manger in Dubai and wrote, A team of researchers and investigative journalists from the Sunday Times and an investigative group called Bellingcat got together to read and analyze Christopher Kinahan's Google reviews.
We certainly were able to map out his activities, his contacts, some of his political views, but also what would appear to be very anodyne information, but which was actually quite revealing. And he kind of gave the game away on lots of different things.
Christopher Kinahan was born in London in 1957 to Irish parents. The family moved back to Ireland when Kinahan was still young.
He went to a Catholic school in Dublin, but was expelled for bad behavior. He moved to a different school, the same one James Joyce had attended.
At 19, he married a woman named Jean, and over the next four years, they had Daniel and Christopher Jr. And that family lived in a flat complex in Dublin's inner city.
But the marriage didn't last long because of his involvement in crime. He then went on to have a number of relationships with different women.
And he fathered at least eight children that I know of. Some of these people have no involvement in crime or anything like that.
They lead quite private lives, and they've not come to any attention of anyone.

Kinahan was arrested in 1986 during a police raid on an apartment in Dublin

with over $100,000 worth of heroin.

He was sentenced to six years in prison.

John Mooney writes that Kinahan believed he'd been set up by a man named Raymond Salinger. Salinger fled Dublin and stayed away for many years.
After he returned, he was shot dead while having a beer in a bar. Reportedly, Christopher Kinahan waited 17 years to have him killed.
Christopher Kinahan went to prison again in the late 90s. And the prison he was sent to is called Portleash.
So Portleash is a prison that was used to house serious criminals, but also paramilitaries from the IRA and the Irish National Liberation Army. John Mooney writes that in prison, Kinahan kept a low profile.
He avoided members of the IRA who were known for targeting drug dealers. And he undertook various educational courses.
He completed a degree. He learned to speak various languages.
I understand he was a voracious reader while inside. And he read everything from economics to history to criminology and any other material he lay his hands on.
Christopher Kinahan learned to speak French, Dutch and Spanish. The deputy director of the UK's National Crime Agency told John Mooney that he did it, quote, so he could deal directly with South American cartels.
He wanted to cut out the middlemen. The prison authorities regarded him as a model prisoner.
He never got involved in squabbles inside the prison.

He was very courteous to prison guards, stayed out of trouble. I remember interviewing a paramilitary who served time alongside him, and he told me the story of seeing a fight or a riot break out in the prison.
And he recalled seeing Kinehan

standing at the door of a cell

watching chairs being flung at different people

and weapons being produced

and people being assaulted and attacked,

including prison officers.

And he distinctly remembered Kinehan

watching this and going back into a cell

and not participating in any of it.

When he was released after four years, Christopher Kinahan allegedly began wearing suits, and he read books by George Soros. I've interviewed and spoken to lots of people who have been in close proximity to him and have spent time with him, And they all say that he turns himself out quite well.
And one particular man who knew him quite well often told me that when he got up in the morning, he reminded him of a peacock that liked to strut around. He often, for example, would walk around in a towel after having a shower, spraying himself with various scents.
That's not something that Irish men would do, but he did it, and he would often talk about how he was looking after himself health-wise. Sometime in the early 2000s, he relocated to the Costa del Sol, a region in the south of Spain, and he ran his operations from there.
He bought drugs directly from cartels in Colombia and sold them to gangs in Europe, while also offering money laundering services. And then he was joined by his sons, Daniel and Christopher Jr.
So they grew up with their mum in Dublin and they had not a lot of contact with him until they reached their teens. But I understand that their mum felt that she could no longer control them because they were continuously trying to emulate him and they traded on his reputation.
It appears that they were sent off to live with him in their late teens. So they both became involved in the drugs business and they became senior figures within the organization.
John Mooney says the two brothers are pretty different. As a kid, Daniel would get into trouble, and he had a temper.
Christopher Jr. has been described as quiet and polite, quote, more like his mother.
And I understand from police officers that have raided their homes that he would always be super polite when search warrants were being executed. Daniel was interested in boxing.
About 10 years ago, he opened a gym, and he's brokered fights for professional boxers like the British heavyweight Tyson Fury. And he was actually very successful on that, and he became an advisor to some top boxing personalities in the world.
The deputy director of the UK's National Crime Agency told John Mooney, Daniel Kinahan is to boxing what Pablo Escobar was to football. When Daniel was in his mid-30s, he was friends with another Irishman named Gary Hutch.
Gary's uncle, Gerard Hutch, reportedly ran an organization known as the Hutch Gang.

Gary's uncle had been involved in crime since he was 10,

when he led a group of children who committed crimes in Dublin in the 70s.

They were known as the Bugsy Malones,

named after the movie Bugsy Malone,

where children played the roles of adults.

But Daniel and Gary had a falling out

after the Kinahans accused Gary

of being a police informant.

And then, John Mooney writes,

Gary tried to have Daniel assassinated.

The Kinahans and the Hutchins met to settle the dispute. They met at the airport in Madrid.
John Mooney reports that the Hutch gang agreed to pay 200,000 euros to Christopher Kinahan. The Hutches also let Daniel Kinahan kneecap a member of their group.
But then, Gary was shot dead near his home.

The Hutches blamed the Kinnahans and retaliated.

But then, so did the Kinnahans.

They wanted to send a message to organized crime in Ireland

that they wore the big fish and no one could get in their way. We'll be right back.
Today Explained here with Eric Levitt, Senior Correspondent at.com, to talk about the 2024 election. That can't be right.
Eric, I thought we were done with that. I feel like I'm Pacino in three.
Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in. Why are we talking about the 2024 election again? The reason why we're still looking back is that it takes a while after an election to get all of the most high quality data on what exactly happened.
So the full picture is starting to just come into view now. And you wrote a piece about the full picture for Vox recently, and it did bonkers business on the internet.
What did it say? What struck a chord? Yeah, so this was my interview with David Shore of Blue Rose Research. He's one of the biggest sort of democratic data gurus in the party.
And basically, the big picture headline takeaways are On Today, Explained. You'll have to go listen to them there.
Find the show wherever you listen to shows,

bro. In February 2016, Daniel Kinahan was in Dublin for a boxing tournament called Clash of the Clans.
The day before the tournament was supposed to start, a hotel in Dublin hosted a weigh-in to check the boxers' weight classes. Around 2.30 in the afternoon, two men entered the hotel.

One of them was disguised as a man. at a weigh-in to check the boxers' weight classes.
Around 2.30 in the afternoon, two men entered the hotel.

One of them was disguised as a woman wearing a wig and a gray dress.

And then three more men wearing what looked like police gear

and carrying AK-47 rifles came in.

They shouted to people in the hotel lobby to get on the ground

and said they wanted to know where the boxers were. They started shooting and were gone within a few minutes.
Investigators think they were Hutch gang members looking for Daniel Kinnahan. One photographer who was there to cover the boxing tournament heard the gunman disguised as a woman say, he wasn't there, I couldn't see him.
Daniel Kinahan had already escaped through a back door. Two people were injured, and one man, a member of the Kinahan cartel, was killed.
Over the next year, a long list of family members, friends, and associates of the Hutch gang were shot and killed. In total, 18 people were killed during the Hutch-Kinnahan feud.
17 of them said to have been killed by the Kinnahans. Some of the dead were bystanders who were not involved in any of it.
And the Irish authorities had never experienced anything like this.

These people were gunning down people on the streets of Dublin,

and the Irish public were both horrified and intrigued by this all at the same time.

One clothing company sold sweatshirts with the words Team Hotch or Team Kinehan. They later pulled the sweatshirts and apologized.
In the meantime, the Kinehans had relocated from Spain to Dubai. The powers that be here realized that they really couldn't stop this because it was being directed from the United Arab Emirates.
So the police started engaging with the United States and other European law enforcement agencies to try to have something done about this, an action taken against them. That's when the US government issued the wanted posters.
The United Arab Emirates announced that it's frozen the Kinnahans' assets and is investigating them.

You must remember these are individuals with colossal wealth. I mean, more wealth than most people could imagine.
One way the Kinnahans laundered money was by making legitimate investments. John Mooney spoke with one investment advisor

who'd suggested to the Kenehans that they should invest in artworks

by the Japanese artist Yayoi Kusama and Banksy. But then, the U.S.
government imposed financial sanctions on the Kinnahans. What does it exactly mean when a U.S.
government lists someone as a sanctioned entity? It prevents any bank that conducts business with the United States or entities of the United States or its representatives from engaging with that sanctioned entity. For example, it prevented Christy Kinnaghan from running companies with his own name on them.
So it stopped banks from trading, from, you know, having bank accounts for these companies, from offering them financial services. Remember one person saying to me that when you're sanctioned by the US, it also prevents you, say, from buying an airline ticket or, you know, having a credit card or conducting any sort of online financial transactions.
It's supposed to and designed to destroy your legitimate finances. So it makes it very awkward to have a normal life.
Now, it should be stated that not every country in the world enforces US sanctions, but certainly most in the Western Hemisphere do. And then, researchers found Christopher Kinehan's Google reviews, and they started digging in.
We spent months and months and months looking at social media profiles and working back from the Google reviews that we had identified. The reviews were posted under an alias, Christopher Vincent, that's Christopher Kinnahan's middle name, and the researchers traced an email address connected to Christopher Vincent's Google account to an address attached to him.
Reportedly, Christopher Kinnahan had often used the alias Christopher Vincent. He had a website at the domain ChristopherVincent.com with the tagline, Helping You to Design Your Success.
The website is no longer live, but researchers found an archived version of it. The homepage had a photo of the Dubai skyline at sunset and read, being in the game is not as important as being ahead of it.
We would stay up quite late at night looking through social media posts, searching for images of the Kinnans who had disappeared from public view, certainly Christy Kinnan. No one had seen him in years.
But the researchers knew that Christopher Kinnehan had recently enjoyed an acai bowl and eggs with almond bread and a green salad at a paleo restaurant in Dubai. It was called the Cycle Bistro.
They began searching for photos people had taken inside the restaurant and uploaded to social media. They studied each photo to see if the Kinahans happened to be in the background.
And we had searched and searched and searched and lo and behold in the back of an image that the restaurant itself had uploaded online on its Instagram account was an image of Christopher Kinahan and his son Christopher Jr. having lunch.
And that image became almost infamous because it was the first one to show that the Kinahan's were living openly in Dubai. They were living quite freely.

And publication of that image really shocked a lot of people on this side of the world

because there was an impression being created that these people were moving from location to location

in fear of arrest and possible extradition.

And they were just having lunch.

That wasn't the only photo they found of Christopher Kinahan.

We'll be right back. At a restaurant called Tasha's in Dubai,

Christopher Kinahan gave it five stars. At a restaurant called Tasha's in Dubai,

Christopher Kinahan gave it five stars.

He took a photo of the patio through the restaurant's window

and posted it with his review.

When you zoom in,

you can see Christopher Kinahan's reflection in the glass.

And at a hotel in Budapest called the Oriana Palace Hotel, four stars out of five,

Kinahan posted 44 photos, including one of a long hallway with marble floors and velvet curtains.

At the far end of the hallway, there's a large mirror, and there's Christopher Kinahan.

The review said,

I'm on two minds with this hotel. I cannot rate it five stars, even though it is close.
If I could rate it 4.5 stars, I would. But unfortunately, I'll rate it four stars.
At the Hyatt Regency in Barcelona, he posted a photo of a bathroom with mirrors. He gave the hotel five stars, but wrote, The reviews are from all over the world.
Zimbabwe, South Africa, Turkey, Hong Kong, Belgium. These turned out to be quite instrumental and important in terms of mapping out where he was traveling, but also on occasion, people that he was engaging with.
So, for example, he would maybe book himself into a hotel,

and we were able to identify other people that were in that vicinity at similar times

and identify these people as being associates of Kinehans.

And indeed, I think we identified a number of parties that are involved in his financial activities that I'm pretty sure the security services still don't know about. Investigative journalists have reported that Christopher Kinahan has tried to set up a new base in Zimbabwe, near known drug trafficking routes, and tried to purchase a fleet of military aircraft.
Journalists have also reported that the cartel tried to buy gold in Zimbabwe

to move it through South Africa to Dubai as a way of laundering money.

Kinehan's Google reviews confirmed that he'd spent a lot of time in those two countries.

He reviewed an airport cafe in Johannesburg.

We witnessed a stunning sunset as we shared drinks and discussed some business. The food was good, the company equally as good, but the only slight drawback was that the service was not quite equal to the cuisine.
In one restaurant review, Christopher Kinahan complained about a waitress, who kept calling him boss. We asked John Mooney to read the review.
I did explain that I did not like to be called boss and please could you call me Chris, Mr. Vincent or Sir.
The waitress tittered. I thought nothing more of it until we were paying my bill.
My friend was kind enough to pay the bill and were about to leave when the same waitress made a point of saying, thanks boss. Were you surprised when you read the reviews? I was and I wasn't I was a little bit taken aback

that Were you surprised when you read the reviews? I was and I wasn't. I was a little bit taken aback that someone who was the subject of an international manhunt would carry a phone to begin with, because I thought he wouldn't carry a phone in case it could be used to track his movements.
I was completely astonished that they would be taking images on that phone and uploading them onto Google for anyone to see. And I was both bemused and completely taken aback that they would accidentally photograph themselves in those same images that they were posting online.
This is an individual who's one of the most wanted men on the planet, but still, he's just a man who makes mistakes. In one of Kenahan's restaurant reviews, he posted a photograph of his meal.
In the photo, you can see a laptop on have, but I do feel as if I know him,

I always felt that he posted those reviews when he was bored and hanging around,

and someone was late, running late to meet him, that it was something like that. I have identified and analysed encrypted communications networks that the cartel have set up so that the key figures within it could communicate with each other securely.
And they've spent lots of money building these secret networks, encrypted networks, to stop intelligence services snooping on their activities. And then he goes off with a smartphone, opens up a Google account, and starts posting images of himself at specific locations.
He names these locations and starts taking a deep dive into the types of food he eats, his opinions of various matters. I mean, one of the most incredible things that he posted on Google was a review of Dubai's immigration service after he had had his residency card reissued.
In his review, Kenahan wrote, I visited the Department of Economic Development in the Dubai Mall 7 November 2021 at about 11.30. I went there to use the interactive machine to update my Emirates ID.
The only interaction with the staff that I had was with a security officer who was most helpful in guiding me to the machine and then advising me on its use. Based on my experience while visiting this office, I rate this visit five star.
That actually proved that the Emirates knew he was there and they could no longer pretend or deny that they knew that this wanted man was in their jurisdiction. And that turned into a very big story in Ireland because the Emirates had been insisting that they were taking every action against him.
But I don't know many fugitives who wander in to immigration services and have their residency permits reissued when they're among the most wanted people on the planet. Do you know how his sons felt when they found out that their father was posting these Google reviews? Do you have any idea? What do you think the sons were thinking? I suspect that when Bellingcat and the Sunday Times began publishing these reviews, I think there was probably a degree of horror at what had happened.
I think there was probably even a greater sense of horror when they discovered that they couldn't take down the reviews and delete them and delete their accounts. We believed that they had set up two-factor authentication on that particular account.
But the big problem that they had was that the email address that they had used to create the accounts had was actually gone because it had been tied and created using a defunct website so when they were trying to gain access to that google account they couldn't do that because the two-step authentication which involves sending an email to the account used to create the google account was now gone so they were kind of caught in this situation where they had to leave all of this content including photographs and locations online for everyone to sift through and i think his sons in the back of their minds would have known that every security service in Europe would be poring over these reviews and using them to, I suppose, trace, you know, collate information on them. And we still don't know how many puzzles were solved by the disclosure of that information.
In January of 2024, Irish police said that they hoped to soon have an agreement with the United Arab Emirates to extradite Christopher Kinahan and his sons to Ireland. Christopher Kinahan may have tried to make a deal with Russia and Iran to get out of Dubai and avoid extradition.
A police source said, Their world is now very small. There are only a handful of places that they can move to.
As soon as they try to leave Dubai, we will be all over them. And in October of 2024, Ireland and the United Arab Emirates agreed on a new treaty, which could reportedly lead to the Kinahan's extradition.
Their organisation is very durable. I don't know how many times I've interviewed senior police officers who've told me that Kinahan is about to be arrested and extradited, that the cartel is about to implode, or that something else is about to happen, and yet they're still there.
Just the last question. If you did get a chance to interview Christopher Kinahan, what would you ask him? So could I use this opportunity to once again extend that invitation to Christopher Kinahan? Yes, if he's listening.
And his sons. And I've no doubt they will listen to this podcast and they'll listen to this episode of Criminal.
You think Christopher Kinahan's going to listen to this episode? Do you think he's a criminal listener? I've no doubt that Christopher Kinahan or one of his associates will listen to this podcast. This guy monitors all media and radio shows and podcasts that are broadcast about him.
I know that they have contemplated at certain times doing an interview to set out their position. If I ever got the chance or the opportunity to meet him and interview him, I think I'd ask him, how did he do this? Most criminal groups implode because their hierarchy and their leaderships turn on each other they implode because they try to transition into legitimate industry and put their criminal activities behind them or they're imprisoned.
And none of those scenarios really fit Kinehan. I'd also like to know if there are areas of this that have been misinterpreted, that maybe there were other dynamics going on within the family, within the organisation.
But he's the only person that can really tell that story. And so far he's chosen to remain silent on that.
but I have to say I do think there will come a day where he'll send for someone like me or it

could be someone else

to certainly put on record

what happened and his story.

And I'd really love to hear that.

Well, if you're out there listening,

get in touch with John.

He's ready.

I won't hold my breath.

Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me.

Nadia Wilson is our senior producer.

Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Robertson, Jackie Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison, and Megan Kinane.
Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal.
You can see them at thisiscriminal.com and sign up for our newsletter at thisiscriminal.com slash newsletter. And we do hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program, Criminal Plus.
Keep listening to hear one of our recent bonus episodes with me and Lauren Spohr answering listener questions. To learn more, go to thisiscriminal.com slash plus.
We're on Facebook and Twitter at Criminal Show and Instagram at criminal underscore podcast. We're also on YouTube

at youtube.com slash criminal podcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Discover more great shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. I'm Phoebe Judge.
This is Criminal. Welcome to Criminal Plus.
I'm Phoebe Judge. I'm Lauren Sporer.
And Lauren, we did it. 2024 is almost in the books.
Complete. Happy New Year.
Happy New Year, Lauren. I always think about how odd it is that we've actually had 24 years since 2000.
Do you think about that? You're thinking about Y2K. Yeah, 2025, that sounds wild to me.
Where were you on New Year's Eve in 1999? Oh, I have a very good place that I was. I was in the middle of Lake Superior on an ice road that ran from Bayfield, Wisconsin to Madeline Island.
It's a miles-long road across Lake Superior, way, way up in northern Wisconsin. It was about negative 12.
And I had walked out on the ice road all by myself in the middle. The most wonderful thing about this ice road is they would line it with old Christmas trees to kind of show you the path.
And my father would take us out there and he'd stop the car in the middle of this frozen lake and open the doors and you'd hear the ice creaking underneath you. Horrifying.
But I walked out and was out there by myself on the ice road, the middle of Lake Superior for that New Year's Eve. Where I was, it was the Christmas of my first year of college.
And I was home in Jacksonville. And I think I was just hanging out with my friends from high school.
We were all back in town. And if I'm remembering correctly, we were just driving around.
And I remember there were fireworks. So it was a sort of suburban.
Seems dangerous to be driving on new year's eve but also sort of classic if you can picture like a 90s movie you just drive around with your friends and that's how you spent you past the evening probably went to a gas station and got a stranger to buy you some miller high life and then just drank it in the car and i was all by myself myself in the middle of a frozen lake. So if aliens had

come down on Y2K, you were ready. Oh, I mean, I was a beacon.
I mean, I was out there all alone. Last time, we told you that for our last episode of the year, I cannot believe it, We were going to be doing an APA, an APLA, Ask Phoebe and Lauren Anything.

And we got so many emails and voicemails from you asking questions. And so here we are.
Should we jump right in? I'm going to drive. So Lauren has just received these questions and voicemails.
Katie Bishop, our supervising producer, has collected them all. I don't know what these questions are, and Lauren is seeing them right now for the first time.
So we are coming to these for us. She's kind of curated, picked through all of your questions.
If we don't get to your question, there's always next year. We have a voicemail from Sherry.
My question is, what is your favorite meal to prepare for yourself?

And also, what is your favorite meal to eat when you go out to a restaurant?

I am very much looking forward to your upcoming Ask You Both Anything episode.

So thank you so much.

Hope you both have a wonderful Christmas and a happy new year. And thank you so much again for what you do.
Well, thank you, Sherry. My answer changes a lot for what I like to cook for myself at home, but I'm just going to say the first thing that comes to my mind, which is a salmon with some sort of kind of a salmon bowl.
So a rice situation with salmon and some kimchi and some greens on the bowl and maybe a little avocado. That's something that I like to cook for myself.
I feel like I'm at an impasse here. Like, do I lie? No, no.
What's that thing you always used to make for yourself? It was some sort of tempeh? I do like to cook tempeh and tofu. I think I just don't cook.
I'm going to revise the question to say my favorite meal to eat at home that I think is better at home than at a restaurant is a beautiful small steak and a really beautiful kale salad. And having those things prepared for me by someone else in the home environment, that's my number one.
And I could eat it, you know, seven nights a week. I really, I think it's wonderful.
What about when you go to a restaurant, Phoebe? I would say that I am always looking to go to a vietnamese restaurant i love pho i love vietnamese food and so if you kind of i also love middle eastern food but um yes if i can get good vietnamese food that's and and when i order at a vietnamese restaurant in a pho, what I would get is beef broth, but hold the beef, tofu and vegetables.

And it's an incredibly confusing order.

They're like, well, wait a second, but you don't eat meat.

But beef broth with tofu and vegetables, no beef.

That's my order at the Vietnamese restaurant.

What about you, Lauren?

Yeah, I think I like to go out for dumplings. I also really like to go out for like fancy Neapolitan style pizza.
All right. God, I've been pulled on a couple of those with you.
You've been a good sport. How about the pizza? I don't get it.
I don't get it. I don't get Neapolitan pizza.
And I understand, I understand the simplicity of it. I've been to some of the best in the country with you.
And I'm always like, is this a little bland? It's all about just the salt. I think if you really like salty foods, the simplicity of that tomato sauce and bread is so perfect.
Phoebe, what from Donna, an question from Donna, what's your process for adding music to the episodes, and who's responsible for picking the tracks? And then she's specifically curious, Phoebe, about your role in the final package.

Music is a very controversial topic around here because we all have our own opinions.

So I'll tell you how it works.

Here's how an episode of Criminal is made.

A producer pitches a story.

I pitch stories too.

We have a pitch meeting once a week where we all pitch and we all kind of decide whether this is interesting or not. And if we think the idea is interesting, a producer will go and kind of do a pre-interview with the guest, see if the guest is working out, then comes back and talks to me and Lauren and says, you know, I think they are interesting.
And we say, okay, let's book them. And then I will work with the producer to kind of research the story, get prepared.
Then we do an interview. The producer is there with me.
We are talking during the interview. I'm doing the interview.
And then afterwards, the producer will take that raw interview that I've done and kind of make a rough draft of a script. Then that script will go to Lauren and the producer, and they'll do a read-through, a first read-through.
And then after that, I'll come in for a second edit, and we'll read through, and we'll fix the copy, and we'll change things around. And these are long edits.
Yesterday, we were in for two and a half hours. And another producer joins at that phase also who's totally fresh to it, knows nothing about it.
So we kind of at every stage are trying to bring people in who don't know anything. Lauren, I know things because I've done the research and I've done the interview.
But then when Lauren comes in, she doesn't know anything. And then when I come back in, I know something, Lauren knows something, but the new producer doesn't.
So after we go through that second edit, I will then take the script and I'll track it, which is what we call when I do the narration for episodes. And then the producer will take those clips of tape and my narration and put together a layup.
We call it a rough mix. And they'll choose music when they're doing that process.
They then send that mix back to me and Lauren, and we listen to it. And another new producer.
Another new producer. We listen to it incredibly closely, and we give notes.
The notes are down to, you know, can you put it half a beat more? Take out this breath. The music should start 0.5 seconds sooner.
I mean, they're very, very detailed notes. But sometimes they're more ephemeral.
Like, this song is kind of depressing under this funny moment in the story. Like, does it feel dissonant to anyone else? And we'll sort of like, so you end up with like sometimes five or six pages of timestamped notes.
Some are really small technical and some are more big picture. Often, even at this stage, we'll say, listening to it all put together, I got kind of bored here, or I got confused here.
And we'll go back to the drawing board and have to like write new copy for Phoebe. Or, you know, maybe we'll have to like read some legal document that we hadn't located before because we have uncovered some question that we didn't know we had yet.
Yeah. And we skip the whole fact checking process, which is another thing that happens, a big thing that happens before I get to the tracking.
But, you know, so that for music wise, I have a lot of notes. I have constant notes about the music.
I have very strong opinions about the music. I'm constantly asking people to swap out songs, move things sooner, fade out slower.
And then we will usually have to do retracts after first listening because we've made so many changes. And then the producer kind of finalizes it and sends it to Veronica Simonetti, who's our engineer.
She masters the whole thing. It will get sent back to the producer who listens one more time.
And even at that point, sometimes there's changes. And then it's kind of put to bed.
So that is the whole process from A to Z. And one of my favorite things that happens even and can happen at any stage of the process and is one of my favorite things and one of the things I'm most proud of about how we work is that at any stage, if the producer has any kind of funny feeling like, hey, just putting this, these two ideas next to each other, you know, create some sort of sense of correlation that we didn't intend.
Like, I feel like people can bring questions at any phase and that's super encouraged. And that's my favorite part about this work is that there's never a sense of like, well, you should have thought of that a few weeks ago and how dare you bring it up now? You know, like we always want to sort of talk through any little worries, any questions at any phase.
It's never too late to change something. You know, right after this, I'm doing retracts.
Sometimes I'll do four or five different versions of retracts because we've thought about something or we're uncomfortable with a fact and we want to get some more, you know, research done. Or sometimes I'll be like, Phoebe's read is kind of dramatic here.
Well, yeah, Lauren and I just... There's like some really subjective moments where I'll be like, Phoebe sounds grumpy, you know thing about I mean I think you know one of the reasons the main reason that this show's as successful as it is after so long is because of the smart people we work with but the other really funny thing is that this process uh me and Lauren kind of started the show in this same idea that we would be there at every every single step of the way and not kind of farm stuff out,

but really we care so much about every single bit

of how these episodes are put together,

and that's the way it's always been.

We've been fighting over a song or a read since day one,

and the team is a lot bigger,

but we've kind of kept that throughout these last 10 years of how we produce episodes. Okay.
You ready for a voicemail? Yeah. Hey, it's Morgan in Little Rock.
Wanted to ask for the last episode, not to be material, but what is your most prized possession or really like the most sentimental thing that you own that you just can't ever get rid of? Okay, cool. Thanks.
I think this is Morgan, who has, if I'm correct, this is Morgan, who's a longtime listener and who we met at our live show in Austin years ago. And I think who attended this tour twice.
So hello, Morgan. Thank you for listening.
I hope you're right. I think who attended this tour twice so hello Morgan thank you for listening I hope you're right I think I am Lauren what what's your answer mine's kind of embarrassing but is it the blanket yes the most the thing that I think about like if there was a fire that I would be the only thing that I would be sad to lose in a fire is I have this, like, small piece of my baby blanket from when I was a kid.
And occasionally, I will remember that I have it, and I don't know where it is, and I'll go looking for it, and I'll find it in some box. And then I just feel comfortable knowing I'd still have it.
Everything else, replaceable. Fine.

I don't know.

In my family, we always call things famous.

Something's famous.

It's a famous box or a famous painting or a famous piece of clothing.

So there's a lot of things like that that kind of get passed down.

But I don't... What about your bracelets?

Yeah. We've joked about your bracelets getting on my nerves but it's kind of a non-negotiable like you're attached to them um there they are that you like that word do it louder jingle jingle for merry christmas um sometimes uh someone will say like the band has started up like sarah orchestra sarah will say to me like, well, the band was going at 2 a.m.
But you can always hear me coming, too, in stores. You can never lose me.
But my first silver bracelet was given to me when I was 16 by my mother and father. And so it says 9-2-99.
And it says happy birthday. It says Fistina Lente, actually.
Happy birthday in Latin.

I think we talked about this in the first episode,

and here we are back to 1999.

Full circle.

So I have this bracelet,

and I have reduced the number of silver bracelets over the years

because I just couldn't hear it from Lauren anymore

about the sound on the microphone.

So I have reduced them,

but I have this that I've literally been wearing since I was 16

and maybe almost never taken off.

And I also have another one that my mother and father gave me when I was 21,

and I'm not sureebe's dining room. Those are grandmothers and it's a beautiful antique clock, but the ticking sound is very loud.
And I am really sensitive about repetitive noises. So I'll be in Phoebe's dining room and I'll just be like, please stop the clock.
And she'll say, why don't you stop my grandmother's heart? You have to hand wind it. Yeah, that I like.
But you have a number of sort of family pieces that you're particular about. And you have a bottle of your mother's perfume.
Yeah, I have a bottle of my mother's Chanel perfume that's still, that I like to have things around, like, you know, this is really interesting, but my mother's pocketbook, I haven't, I have with me. So I keep- We almost got in a fight when I visited you.
Oh, you used my mother's perfume. Lauren came out of the bathroom, and she smelled like Chanel No.
5, and I thought, what did you do? She had just started spritzing herself with Chanel No. 5 in the bathroom.
It's just in the bathroom. If there was hand lotion in the bathroom, I would expect it was for me.
And so I just thought, oh, I haven't smelled that perfume in a long time. I knew it was your mother's, but I assumed it was like, I thought you were trying to fold it into the tapestry of daily life.
I didn't know it was a do not touch object. You were really mad at me.
Yeah. So, yes, I think I feel like I do like to have things around me, kind of in plain sight.
That's a good question, because I never thought of you as sentimental, but I think you are. Anything else? Yes, here we are.
Oh, this is a nice one from Kim. She says she's been listening from the beginning and enjoyed every episode.
She also has a blanket that was gifted to her that says, My Criminal Podcast Listening Blanket. And then she says, On to my question.
Being that you work and travel together frequently and for so many years, have you managed to maintain a good relationship in regards to your friendship? Your bonus episodes show you have a comfortable relationship with each other that is admirable, and I'm curious on how you make that work. I would say an ability to not be polite in a way.

And I think that stresses out some listeners sometimes, which I understand. It's not not polite, but it's just an ability to be very honest and to not worry about what the other person is going to necessarily think about that honesty.
I don't know how to describe it, but it's a loud, loud relationship. Not yelling so much, but just very— Sometimes you're yelling.
Well, sometimes you're yelling. But I think that there's a lack of politeness just in the sense of formality.
You know, the formalness of what you're supposed to act this way or you're supposed to you know and I think that

yeah like just like I think we're there's like some some strange level of like comfort with conflict between the two of us that I don't have in other relationships in my life um but I'm not afraid of offending you um yeah is that trust I don't know what that is like I also

it's just that like

I feel that

no matter what happens

you know even if we get in like a really bad disagreement I could call you five minutes later to tell you like about some funny thing I saw on Instagram and you would answer and we would be fine it's like it's like just extremely compartmentalized into like 50 compartments or something yeah I mean I think that you think that, you know, yes, we are the co-creators of Criminal and started a

business together, but, and so we have this business partnership. But I don't think people

maybe understand that Lauren and I have such a close relationship that has nothing to do with

Criminal, you know, so we are working all the time together. But then we also are very much

in a, we're not talking, there's a million other things that we're not talking about. But you know, when we're traveling, there's a familiarity in the sense that I, we've said this before, Lauren and I can travel from Los Angeles to New York and not say one word to each other.
And there's no obligation, you know, that's not because we're being jerks, but it's just you don't need to. You know, it's not, we're not trying to impress each other or entertain each other.
And so you can just kind of just be, and it means that you can be together a lot, which we are, and you can travel together a lot, and you can be in very stressful situations. But because you're not trying to constantly impress or entertain the other person, you can just turn off a little bit.
Where I think if you don't have a very long or close relationship with someone, you feel like, how are they doing? Are they okay right now? You know, silence is awkward. What can we talk about? And I don't feel in any way that, like, I got it.
You know, we don't need to be entertaining each other. I think, and I think I've said this before, but I also think that's because we weren't hired to make this show.
We decided to make this show. So I think, I'll speak for myself, like, I feel a great sense of pride and a great sense of, like, partnership with you in that way.
Like, built this thing it, people have come to listen, they've stayed to listen. And I, I just, I think that's like a specific type of bond that you don't have with like a typical coworker or something, or even a friend.
Like we've like, we've had a real project together for more than 10 years now that we both care about maybe too much, you know? And, you know, it's not, it's not as though Lauren and I are only catching up when we're doing Criminal Plus. You know, we are talking to her.
I asked someone on the team if they listen to Criminal Plus every week, and she said, why would I listen to Criminal Plus? I hear you and Lauren do this all day. I don't need to listen to Criminal Plus.
I get it all the time. So, yes, we're not doing Criminal Plus or talking like this

because we need to be making a show.

It's just, you know, kind of life.

All right, Phoebe.

Jolene from South Dakota would like to know,

what is your favorite non-essential invention?

Not like computers or antibiotics,

just small inventions you would not want to live without.

And she says for her it's Post-it notes and Kleenex. Oh, what a good question.
Okay, two things just came into my head, and I don't know why. An eye mask and a box grater.
Those are both good. Yeah, I don't know.
Those just shot, of all the things, those shot in my head. What about you, Lauren? I mean, all that I could think of, and this is kind of embarrassing, is I have an aura ring, one of those rings that tracks.
Lauren, that is technology. But it's certainly not essential.
It's like absolutely useless. But it gives me pleasure every single day and pushes me to go to sleep earlier.
So I get a kick out. I've had it for more than two years, and I get a kick out of it every day.
What do you think it says about you and me that I chose box grader and you chose aura ring? I mean, the aura ring is like— In the centuries that we're living in. I think you would like the aura ring.
I know it's really ugly. I don't want to wear a ring on my index finger, Lauren.
You're supposed to wear it on your pointer finger. That's your index finger.
Oh, yeah. I don't know.
You're supposed to. That's a look.
It looks like it's a fashion. It's a real look.
It's a strong look. It's ugly.
It's embarrassing. When I see other people wearing them, I'm like, okay, right, right.
I'm participating in this. But I do love it.
And, you know, you get a little fever. It tells you, like, it really detects.
And if you're exercising a lot, which you are, Phoebe, I think you would really enjoy keeping up with, like, how quickly your body recovers, how quickly your heart rate goes down. But I have my Apple Watch.
Sure, sure. Kiera wants to know, what is your very first memory? Wow, that's so hard.
I remember laying on my mother's stomach. She was pregnant with my brother Quentin.
Quentin was born in 80—so I was born September 2nd, 1983. Quentin was born August 6th, 1986.
So how young would I be if she was pregnant with him? I was pretty young, and I remember laying on her stomach. She was pregnant.
And she was talking to me. She was in bed.
She was talking to me about wanting to name my brother Guy because she thought the name Guy Judge would be good. That's one of my first memories.
How about you? oh gosh I don't know I do have a memory of playing with kids on my street. I lived in this cul-de-sac.
And I remember that, you know, those electrical transformer boxes? Yeah. Those green boxes.
I remember this girl, this neighbor who was older than me saying, Smurfs live behind there. And I think that might be my earliest.
I don't know how old I was. The memory that just haunts me is all the nights where I would have to go to bed where it was still light out.
I can remember that too. Just me and Chloe in the bunk beds.
It was still light out. And my mother closing the door and saying, time to go to bed.
And me just being so confused. I can remember the ceiling fan in my room had a chain that would like rub on the glass of the globe, but I liked the sound.
Like it was a sort of soothing. So I can remember it's still being light out.
I'm trying to go to sleep and the sound of the ceiling fan and like staring up at the popcorn ceiling. Okay, we have a voicemail.
Hi, this is Jonna from Colorado here. I was at your Boulder Life show and was delighted to hear that you love to ski because I do too.
I was wondering how you came to skiing, having grown up in Chicago, where is your favorite place to go ski and to skiing figure into your 2025 adventure slash resiliency journey resolution? Well, you're right. It is hard to be a skier when you grow up in Chicago because the ski slopes of Wisconsin will only take you so far, which is where we would go mainly, but also we would go to Vermont.
But I, and I went to college in Vermont. So the funny thing is that I have not skied that many days of my life just because of where I grew up.
But the skiing that I have done has been funny skiing, you know, in Wisconsin and then Vermont, which is, as anyone who skis knows, Vermont's a different beast than skiing in the West. So I've skied on a lot of ice before.
You've skied in Maggie Valley, North Carolina. I watched you.
I love to downhill ski. I really love to ski in Utah.
And every year, I go for three or four days all by myself. And I go skiing all by myself, and I will say that it is usually the case that I am the first person on the chairlift, and I'm the last person off.
And there was a claim to fame a couple years ago where I was number two at Deer Valley with the most miles skied in a day. There's this thing that kind of track you.
And I was number two. I was

close to being number one as having skied the most in one day. So I love it.
And I am very excited about trying to ski in Canada. I'd like to ski in Canada a bit.
And I'd also love to ski in the Alps, which sounds rather grand to go skiing in the Alps. But those are two places I haven't skiedied yet and yes, I will be skiing in 2025.
I cannot wait. I have my skis in the car.
I brought them just across my fingers. We'd have some snow.
I have some cross-country skis in the car. So I'm ready to go.
Maureen is asking about the status of your plantar fasciitis. How do you pronounce it? Fasciitis.
The whole name of it's horrible. You know, Maureen, it's still there.
It is better, but it's still there. I'm not running as long right now, but I'm still running.
The thing that has helped me the most is when my calf is stretched and massaged, it helps the heel the most.

The next question comes from Beth, and it's for me.

As a fellow FSU alumna, what was Lauren's favorite part of being a student at FSU?

Did you jump in Westcott on your first birthday there?

That was a fountain.

This is Florida State.

Florida State University.

There's sort of a famous fountain.

Well, Beth, I never jumped in the fountain. I never attended a football game.
I would say my first birthday, I was probably crying. It took me a full year to figure out what was going on at Florida State University.
I remember I got there and my dorm was Brian Hall, which is a smaller dorm, and I was excited about that. It was also one of the newer dorms, so it was pretty nice.
And then I remember I had made the decision that I wasn't going to rush for a sorority before I got to Florida State. I was very involved in theater, and that was what I was looking for.
And then, when it was time for everyone to go, I guess, to fraternity and sorority info sessions, I was the only person in my dorm. Every single person in my dorm was going to participate in Greek life, and that was just a real wake-up call.
And I think it took me a little while to find my footing at Florida State, but I did eventually find it by taking creative writing classes, which was amazing. And also by becoming a DJ at the WVFS, the college radio station there, where I met amazing friends who I still talk to every single day.
So it was it was this I was a late bloomer at Florida State. But thank you for asking.
OK, I think we are going to have to not get to all of our questions today, Phoebe, but I will. Here are two more from Angela in Cleveland.
One, you guys discuss meat a lot. Would you ever consider becoming a vegetarian or a vegan? Angela, I have been both a vegetarian and a vegan.
Absolutely, I would consider it. I am very aware of the problems with meat.
I actually don't eat that much meat. I would say most of my meals are meatless.
But I do have, you know, meat occasionally. But 100% would be vegetarian or vegan.
More so probably vegetarian than vegan. But I don't really care about dairy that much.
So it wouldn't be hard for me to just be straight vegan. Lauren, you've been both as well.
Yes. And I think that if I were living my best life, I would not participate in any dairy products or meat products.
But I just really like hamburgers. And so at this exact moment, I'm going to keep eating them, but I do, in the future, when I get everything organized, I would prefer not to.
And Phoebe, Angela also wants to know if your running routine changes for the winter. Angela, it does not, actually.
I'm wearing, I went running very early this morning. I'm still wearing my running clothes, which just means that shorts become longer pants, and I wear kind of not, I'm wearing kind of a long sleeve.
Right now, it's a Patagonia kind of thing with a hood that I wear running. I don't wear gloves, and I don't wear a hat.
I wear my baseball hat. That's wild that you don't wear gloves.
I've never understood the gloves thing. Yeah, it's never been cleared.
I love running when it's cold. I would much rather run in the very cold than I would in the very hot.
Okay, well, we didn't get to everyone and I apologize, but I think we have to move on to three favorite things because then we have to go to an edit. We have to go back to work.
Yeah. Thank you all so much for writing in.
We didn't get to, there are so many more questions, but we'll do this again and thank you. Phoebe, what have you been enjoying lately? Well, one thing I've been enjoying lately is drinking a gallon of water a day.
I love this. What is 128 ounces? Is that a gallon or two gallons? Unknowable.
Okay. Well, I'm drinking 128 ounces of water a day, which sounds like I'm floating, but I'm not.
It's actually not that much water, but I'm trying to drink a lot of water. It's the holiday season.
There's a lot of, I feel like there's a lot of entertaining. There's a lot of food.
There's just like a lot of excess. And I'm countering it by 128 ounces of water a day.
Okay, something I've been enjoying is double blankets. Instead of, you know, in the winter, I think I pull out a down comforter.
But instead of doing that this year, I've been doing two heavy blankets. And it's much cozier.
Highly recommend. Simple thing.
Anyone can do it. Double blankets.
Something else I've been enjoying lately and it is controversial for me to say because you've heard me talk about how this show drives me nuts is Ted Lasso. Oh my God, I'm shocked.
Tell me about it so much. I've never seen it.
I've never seen it. It always seems a little like, is it like religious or something? No, well, yeah.
I mean, no, it's not. But it's very pure and wholesome.
And the jokes are corny. And the acting's over the top.
But there's something that I found rather comforting about it now. That's what everyone says.
People say it, like, improves your day. So I'm just going to say, surprisingly, Ted Lasso.
All right. Circling back to our 1999 theme, when I was in high school, I listened to a ton of jazz.
And I would go to Barnes & Noble and buy the CDs and then drive around listening to them. A real theme of me spending time driving around.
But this week, I've been listening to this old Miles Davis record called Sorcerer. And I just want to put a plug in for this as an alt Christmas album.
I think it's really doing something for me. It's kind of chaotic, but it's not too chaotic.
And I think it's really a perfect record. The third thing I've been enjoying lately is a book I'm reading called The Bee Sting by Paul Murray.
It came out last year. It's set in Ireland.
And I picked it up in an airport. I'd finished a book and I needed another book and I picked it up and I am really enjoying it.
The Bee Sting, Paul Murray. Okay.
My last thing is a simple, a great simple pleasure that I forgot about, which is making grilled cheese sandwiches. and I bought this bread, I think, Phoebe, because you had it, this thin slice of Dave's Killer bread.
Did I get that from you? Yeah. And then if you want, you can make two grilled cheeses back-to-back with this bread.
And last night I had grilled cheese and tomato soup, and I thought, this is ingenious. How did I ever forget about it? So that's my pitch for cozy late December dinner.
Well, thank you all very much for listening this year and for listening today. It means a lot to us.
Thank you for calling in. Please keep calling in.
Hello at thisiscriminal.com and 833-822-7850. Lauren, I hope you have a really wonderful Christmas.

Yes, you too.

And Happy New Year.

I'll be speaking to you in 2025.

And in 20 to 25 seconds.

And in 20 seconds.

Okay, bye-bye.