4. In the Groove

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BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

I'm Hannah Fry.

And I'm Dara O'Brien.

And this is Curious Cases.

The show where we take your quirkiest questions, your crunchiest conundrums, and then we solve them.

With the power of science.

I mean, do we always solve them?

I mean, the hit rate's pretty low.

But it it is with science.

It is with science.

Welcome back to Curious Cases.

We have got a musical question for you today.

Time for us to get our groove on, which, as we'll discover, Dara, is a technical term.

Is that all this time?

I've been incorrectly using that scientific term.

Flippantly, you've been using it.

That's a pity, actually, yeah.

Are you musical?

I mean, I don't like to brag, but I have been known to bang out three blind mice on a recorder.

Yeah, the recorder is very much the non-musical instrument.

I think that's your answer then, Ed.

Yeah.

yeah yeah it's more of a kind of a hypey drone really yeah you know if you imagine um theresa may dancing oh that's that's that's okay wow that's how all all mathematicians dance i think that's my nightmare i close my eyes at night and think that's jerking awkward a rhythmic thing now i want you to see that but with my face on it okay fine all of this is relevant to the question that we have today a question that's come in from dan shillebeer hi i'm dan and i've been thinking about time what's the internal clock we call rhythm why are some of us better percussionists than others

I regard people who can play drums or play the piano as getting lucky consistently because I have no idea how they do those things if you gave me two drumsticks I would just give you background noise it's appalling

I want to know how musical you are Darwin.

Well I like rhythm.

I like beat.

What's interesting to me is I can never translate that into the coordination, the jump from what's the clock in your head to your fingers.

That I'd also like to ask about as well.

What about dancing though?

Can you do that?

I have been known to dance, but I think it's a thing that one should never review or view or have seen.

It's interesting how you might say that though, because I actually, knowing that you had a penchant for a little bit of boogieing,

I actually found a little video of you online.

If you Google Daro Brienne dancing,

look at this.

Just for people who can't say, I can't see the screen you're looking at, nor will I ever.

It is one of those activities which is.

It's a red-nosed thing.

No, please don't tilt it.

I don't want to see it.

I don't want to see it.

I genuinely don't want to see it.

It is a red-nosed thing.

I've lived it.

I don't want to see it.

I've got to be honest.

I mean, you're giving it your all.

That's in a recording studio here.

That's not actually properly doing it.

Like Dan, I've always wondered why some of us can drop and do the worm or can follow a beat while others have two left feet.

And we've got a couple of people to help us investigate today's musical mystery.

Professor Nina Krauss is a neuroscientist who who studies how the brain processes music and sound.

And Dr.

Maria Vitek is a cognitive psychologist who focuses on music perception.

And Maria, you study Groove.

I do, yeah.

Hey.

I'm a doctor of Groove.

What's the definition?

So if you want to use a psychological definition of Groove, it's actually a sensation.

It's the feeling of a pleasurable wanting to move to a beat.

Okay.

I mean, way to get academic about something that we all innately enjoy.

Well, speaking of cool jobs, we have also got Mark Richardson here, who is a drummer for the rock band Skunk and Auntie.

How would you describe your music, Mark?

Sort of like Britpop's noisy, louder cousin.

Yeah, perfect.

Yeah, we were kind of alongside the Britpop thing, doing our own kind of indie, yeah, loud, quiet, loud, quiet thing.

And thank you for bringing in your drum kit today, staring at us ominously

across the other side of the studio.

No worries.

Let's start with some basics.

What do we mean when we say rhythm?

Rhythm is a pattern over time, a pattern of durations over time.

And it's hard to define rhythm without defining a beat alongside it.

So you think of the beat as that underlying framework, that regular framework.

And the rhythm is the pattern that lies over top, the sequence of sounds that we hear in relation to the beat underneath it.

What is it about humans that makes us attracted to rhythms then?

So rhythm is part of our environment.

When you think about the way that we walk is very rhythmic, we have the kind of rhythmic alternation of light and darkness over the course of 24 hours.

Our heart rates are rhythmic.

So

there's lots of kind of rhythmic information in the environments that we synchronize to and that we...

our attentions are drawn to.

Rhythm is definitely something that is just part of humans' environments and animals' environments as well.

But talking specifically about music, why is rhythm in music so important to us?

So, rhythm sort of provides a kind of framework with which we can quite quickly engage with music, right?

Like you can hear a beat after two, three beats, you're already catching onto that regularity.

Like you're predicting what's coming next.

Yes, exactly.

Prediction is a really important part of rhythm.

So, in order to be able to perceive that underlying beat, that massively relies on your expectations over time.

Those expectations and that prediction of these regular beats not only allows us to perceive it but also allows us to move along to it.

And so rhythm is a really basic element of music that quite quickly invites participation from listeners and dancers and musicians etc.

There are different kinds of complexity in music.

Some music might have very what we call isochronous rhythms, so when the beats are equally spaced.

Some rhythms might have more complex rhythms like polyrhythms or non-isochronous beats.

Some music might have no regularity, like experimental kind of contemporary music.

Some music, like folk music in Norway, will have that regular beat underlying it, but it's not strictly on the beat.

It will kind of swell.

in time at certain points.

And also even certain hip-hop music or music like Stankanansi would play might be, you know, a drummer might play a little bit late or a little bit early.

So the drums are not equally spaced.

They're kind of, they're a little bit more flexible.

I'm thinking about how much music is enjoyed sort of collectively, or how easy it is for, say, an audience of people to synchronise clapping together.

Is that part of it, that you need that regularity in order to be able to find sync?

Absolutely.

So, yes, you know, there are many kind of theories about, you know, the kind of evolutionary development of rhythm.

And one of them is that we develop to be able to perceive these beats and to make these beats because of of the social significance of them.

Because when we move along to these beats, we don't just synchronize to the rhythm.

We also synchronize to the other people around us.

And so when we synchronize with other people around us, we become more similar to them.

And other people become more predictable.

And so you can say that there's a kind of almost like a blurring between yourself.

and the people around you.

So there's a really strong social significance for rhythm and synchrony that may explain why we have rhythm in music today.

Nina, this mechanism of rhythm as a conformity device, is that a thing you've seen as well?

Well, yeah.

So if I've got sensors and I'm measuring the electrical activity between you and another musician playing together or you and your audience, our brain waves actually synchronize.

They synchronize to the music, they synchronize to each other.

Earlier you were talking about detecting deviations and anticipating what you think is going to happen.

Well, our nervous system is really good

at detecting regularities,

and it will also notice, because it's really important.

You know, think about sound.

If there's a regular sound and then there's a deviation, which might signal a predator, it might signal something fun, who knows, your nervous system

will respond, or neurons actually do something called phase locking, which is they will respond in synchrony, in time, with a regular beat.

But if you have this nice regular beat as a background, then you can pick up on syncopation.

You can pick up on an irregularity which might signal danger.

Interesting, there's a drumming festival I know in Spain where different villages send drumming teams out and they drum against each other.

They pick a particular rhythm and they have to drum against each other and eventually, and this can take some time, one of them is subsumed into the other.

One conforms to the other's rhythm.

They can't hold their beat against the other beat because the other one is just simply too it overpowers them and then they start and then they win.

It's this mechanism as a competition.

It's called entrainment.

Take a couple of metronomes and put them on a board.

And if you have them going in different

times to start with, over time they will entrain and you will find a similar beat.

But I get why that works with a piece of wood.

Physical system.

Yeah, with a physical system, and it's reacting, they're damping each other, they're falling against the thing.

But we do the same thing mentally in our heads.

The neurons are always firing in some kind of pattern.

And they're not always synchronized.

If that happened, that would be something like epilepsy.

But there's kind of these complex swelling interactions of different groups of neurons in the brain.

And when we listen to rhythms, we can measure these rhythms using electroencephalography or EEG, so these caps where you put electrodes and record neurons.

And you can see that some of the neurons will fire in time with the rhythm.

And so that's actual physical entrainment.

The leap from this to doing what that man sitting behind

a collection of pigskin over there, stressed pigskin, can do.

That leap, I think I will see you do, to be honest.

Because, okay, I guess.

Because I feel that he's not your thing.

Yeah.

At all,

which is why it makes it an even more interesting challenge.

But I'd like you to go over there and attempt to do this, if you can.

You want me to do some drumming?

I'd love to do some drumming, because I'd like to find out if this is a thing that anyone could do, or if you'll hit it, it'll make a sound that has never made before in the hands of a professional drummer, and then you'll walk away.

That's, in any way, my sincere hope.

Okay.

That you break the drums.

That I break the drums.

Well, actually, no, that you break drumming.

If I am going to go and break drumming,

I think it would be good to get a sense of what good drumming sounds like first.

Shall we do that, Mark?

Yes, please.

Can you just, just, just, you know, apro of nothing, just knock out some beats for us.

Okay, so just simplistic, basically, what most Western contemporary music is based on.

Stuff like that.

It was a fancy at the end there, didn't it?

Yeah, it was a bit fancy.

I mean, he really did.

He put a little bit of embellishment in the middle of all.

I know.

He's all music-based.

It was quite fancy.

I could have made it simpler than that.

But then, going back to what you were saying earlier about feeling,

you know, the crowd all together and stuff like that, there's a little bit in this gunk show where the music speeds up.

And if I can just demonstrate that, and you tell me what you feel in your body.

Please.

So it starts off like this.

Just excitement.

Yes, it is.

It is.

It's an adrenaline rush there, and I want you to push people around.

All right, shall I go and see if I can do that?

Okay, so we're going to teach you a 4-4 beat.

On the 1, 2, 3, 4, you're going to play the hi-hat.

Is that this one?

Yeah.

Yeah, but with, if you pick the sticks up.

Oh.

Both of them.

Shush now.

Put your foot on the hi-hat Yeah head on close that up.

That's it.

Right.

And then hang on you expect me to do this with my left hand.

No, no, with your right hand.

Okay.

So with so cross them over cross them over like this.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

So we should just do four four.

Yeah, so okay, so if you look at me talking music.

Yeah, wow, you really sound like a pro there

You sound like a seven-year-old child in their first piano lesson.

Oh, four, four, okay.

Yeah.

What's that?

Okay, so we're going one, two, three, four.

We're just gonna

Okay, one,

keep counting,

one, two, and then on the one and the three, you're gonna put the bass drum.

That's this one.

Yeah, so one, two, three, four.

Yep.

You're nearly there.

Okay.

Let's start that again.

I mean, one.

Thank you for not patronising.

Okay.

Two, three, four.

One, two, three, four.

One, two, three, four.

That's better than you did it before.

So, like, the neurons are going crazy.

They're all like starting to fire up.

Come back in a week.

Alright, I'm going to have one last bit.

Hang on, one last guy.

We're getting there, okay?

So now, the last bit is on the two and the four.

Oh, God.

You need to add the snare drum.

You'd finish the drumming, hasn't it?

You think you'd master the drumming?

Yeah.

The snare drum.

It's fine.

So, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four.

And then add the bait from in on the one and three.

One, two, three, four.

There it is.

So close.

That's the noise you wanted to hear.

Can I see you do it again?

Yeah, of course.

That's like a basic disco bait, okay?

But you change the hi-hats and it changes the movement of the whole thing.

So.

It's a very simple, subtle change, but it moves more.

It makes you want to dance.

It makes you want to move.

And Nina, in terms of

how that is reflected in what's going on in the brain.

So we have done these kinds of experiments in the lab where we will do a steady beat just on the one, you know, one,

and the brain will do the one, but it also gets the ands.

So even when the and isn't there, the brain is subdividing.

So the brain wave, you know, so

what the person's hearing is just

what the brain's doing is one and two and three.

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Drumming is really important for language.

You know, it turns out that kids who are not good at following a beat often have language reading problems and actually teaching kids rhythm.

And it doesn't have to be drumming.

A lot of music inherently has rhythm in it.

So, you know, basic music education is pretty great.

Nina, are brains different in drummers?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, first of all, all our brains are different.

Of course.

But yes, there have been studies showing that the brains of drummers are somewhat different in that it reflects the training.

So, you know, in our lab, we can measure rhythmic ability in drummers, and we can also measure the brain responses.

Now, we've just been talking about how rhythm can be subdivided.

Well, our brain, our neurons, are also firing in synchrony.

And what's so great about sound is this happens on a microsecond level.

And you know, you know, when you hit the crash, you've got to be right

on.

I thought that if you were good at one kind of rhythm, you'd be good at another kind of rhythm.

You were just sort of good good at rhythm.

Turns out, you can't predict how good a person is going to be at rhythm patterns by how good a job they do following the pulse.

So

these are really different processes.

And people who have studied these things, like we have, in the brain, we can see that there are different neural brain responses associated with one kind of rhythm and another kind of rhythm.

And again, we've linked the people who can do the pulse with really good precision and the people who can do the patterns that evolve over time with really good precision.

And they correspond to brain rhythms that are microsecond timing.

And then there are other rhythms that evolve over seconds.

And what we have seen is that drummers

are particularly good at reflecting synchrony on microsecond timing.

Can it be put as simply as that Mark is capable of doing that and I am not?

Or are there different types of...

I mean, Mark, could you ever play jazz?

No.

Oh, could you?

It would take a lot of training for me.

I've spent my whole career playing along to contemporary songs and my favourite bands, and that's how I've learnt.

And playing drums in a jazz kind of format never really interested me.

If you play jazz with the training you have and the expectation you have of what rhythm you're going to deliver, would you sound like I'm trying to pick a nightmare scenario who Hannah.

I'm just saying, you know, I like a bit of jazz and if they all turned to you, you're on a bit in the jazz at a jazz performance when they all take their turn and would that be what we just heard from Hannah would be essentially what you'd be doing.

The sound of the sticks falling on the kit would be what you would hear if I tried to play.

Eight bars of that.

Eight bars would be from the.

But it would just be you're expecting you've trained to hit a particular thing, to do a particular rhythm and it would be very difficult to change that.

It's definitely changeable.

If I said, right, I'm going to learn to play jazz, and I started training with

somebody who's great at teaching me jazz, then I would in,

you know, eight, ten, twelve,

I don't know, however many weeks, this time next year, if I did it consistently, I would be able to play jazz to a certain level.

There's obviously many different levels of this, but

this sounds Nina, though, that it's not like you have rhythm or you don't, but that there are different aspects to rhythm that some people people might be better at than others.

Yeah, and also the training over time.

I mean, it's a good thing.

You know, we know that our brain changes based on what we do, but to really fundamentally change your brain, it takes a long time.

You know, which is why when you learn a musical instrument, for example, this evolves over years.

And we have done this in longitudinal studies, you know, where we've tracked people over years of their musical training.

And we can see that it even not after one year, but after two years, we start seeing some real fundamental changes in their brain rhythms.

So

if our nervous system, if our brain changed

every

second,

we'd be even more confused than we already are.

So there's a certain stability, there's a certain part of my brain that I can sort of count on, but that with time, haha,

with time, I can learn to change.

And if I work on something, you know, for a year or so, there will be fundamental changes in the what we call neural synchrony, how our neurons fire together in my brain.

So, a genuine physical difference in your brain, Mark, as well as presumably the actual physical of sitting banging a drum for two hours at a time.

Yeah, I mean, I don't play particularly quietly.

I'm playing quietly today, but when I'm on tour with Skunkanansi, it's pretty brutal and it's a very, very physical thing.

My arms are all the way up above my head, and it's a show, so it's theatre as well, you know.

But that is very, very physical.

And I work with the Clembert Drum Project, who did lots of measuring on me, and they measured sort of my cardiovascular system, my temperatures, and working at temperatures, and how much sweat loss there is, and all this kind of thing.

And they came to the conclusion that my cardiovascular system was as efficient as a Premiership footballer.

Not that I could sprint around

for

90 minutes, but that it was working as efficiently as theirs.

Yeah, you got to be fit.

And you bring up a really important point.

I mean, here we're trying to pull rhythm out of this very big thing that we call making music.

Our hearing brain actually connects to parts of our brain that are important for movement, are important for coordinating our other senses, so our visual information.

It's associated, connected with what we know.

So you already know a lot of things as a drummer,

what you know, what you think, and you talked about your heart rate and

clearly your

nervous system on a very basic level is associated.

It's all part of the hearing brain.

You can't just

think of rhythm as an isolated thing.

It really encompasses this embodied sense of the hearing brain, which is

the fancy way to say it, is cognitive, sensory, motor, and reward, how we feel.

That's all part of rhythm.

This is a very interesting way to think about it.

Rhythm isn't just a little beat that you're tapping along to, it's a whole body experience.

And that, I think, after my humiliation there does bring me quite neatly onto self-proclaimed captain of the dance floor, Dara Brianette.

And your experience.

Where is the humiliation for me?

Yes.

Because you have literally very little evidence to go on this.

I've seen a video.

Yeah.

Why do we enjoy this?

Yeah.

What is it about dancing?

Why are we dancing?

Yeah, I mean, we're talking about the embodiment and the physicality of it, like whatever.

But if I hear a particular beat, I want to dance, you know, for the promise of whatever.

what is it?

What is it about a beat

that pushes that adrenaline rush that makes us want to do that?

Yeah, so I mean, that I think is key to understanding groove as a concept, as a psychological concept, and as a musical concept.

And it comes back to the prediction.

So let's think about this in a kind of Western contemporary context.

The music that we hear on a dance floor, like disco, like electronic dance music, house, techno, funk.

It has that regular beat, but it also has what's called polyrhythms or syncopations.

And what that actually is, is that there's some kind of irregularity over the top of that regular beat, or the beat is shifted.

And so sometimes the rhythms don't fall on the beat, but they fall off the beat.

And that off-beatness,

what that does, because we have those expectations about that beat, even though it's falling off the beat, even though it breaks with our expectations, we then

fulfill that expectation by moving to the beat.

So when you're on the dance floor, you have that regular beat, but you also have that polyrhythm or that syncopation, that off-beatness that allows you to fill in the beat with your body movement.

And that filling in of the beat is a pleasurable experience because we know that expectation and prediction is very, very key to understanding pleasure and emotion, not just in music, but in human behavior more broadly.

I wonder about connecting all of this together.

Because if we're saying, Mark, that your brain has physically grown in particular directions because of how much time you spent

synchronizing to rhythms, to beats and so on.

Can you use this the other way around, I wonder?

Could you take people who perhaps have developmental issues and then help grow their brains in a particular direction through music and through rhythm?

Yeah, one area of music therapy, neurological music therapy, that's quite interesting in this context is what's called rhythmic auditory stimulation.

And the population that this is mostly relevant relevant to is Parkinson's disease.

So we know that Parkinson's disease is a result of a degenerative process in the brain that depletes dopaminergic processing in a particular part of the brain that we know is important for movement.

The kind of classic Parkinson's symptoms are problems with gait, freezing, tremors.

So they're movement symptoms.

And so the same parts of the brain that we know are responsible for these kinds of movements and that are not functioning properly in Parkinson's are also really, really important for rhythm.

And so there is some really interesting research, and this is also an actual therapy that's being used where you can introduce a click track, essentially, to patients with Parkinson's disease.

And just that external rhythmic auditory stimulation, that's the name of the therapy, will

help alleviate some of those freezing symptoms, the tremor symptoms, and the gait symptoms.

And so it's thought that that dopaminergic depletion in this part of the brain that we know is important for movement and rhythm, so those two are intimately linked in the brain.

If there's a problem in that area, you can kind of supplement it through auditory information by providing a click track.

Like you're encouraging people to sort of dance their way through life almost.

Absolutely, yes.

If you've ever been to a gym, you know, the choice of music can be quite central to how pleasant an experience it is.

I mean, you can't be

on a treadmill to the wrong piece of music.

Absolutely.

And we know that music can help endurance during exercise, motivation.

You know, if you speed up the tempo, you'll tend to run faster or, you know, do the exercise faster.

There's something about that desire to fill in the beat, the desire to synchronise, that just gives us that little bit of extra energy.

I wonder about this therapeutic angle.

Mark, have you ever been involved in using music as therapy?

Yeah, so the Clemberg Drumming Project that I was involved in that did the research on me and my personal physiology, they also did a study where they gave lessons to autistic children twice a week for 16 weeks and the results were amazing.

They were interacting a lot more by the end of the drum lessons and I went along to give them awards just to say well done for completing the course and the parents were in the audience and they were all crying because they hadn't seen their children interacting like this ever.

Nina, does that add up to what you know of the impact of rhythm on the brain?

Completely.

Because remember, I was saying that the hearing brain is vast.

And rhythm is an enormous part of hearing, whether it's speech or music.

And

by vast, I mean it includes, it engages our emotional system and our memory.

So going back to the gym or to Parkinson's,

if you know a piece of music, you are going to move to it.

You're going to respond to it differently than if you don't.

What they often do with people with Parkinson's is you don't want to be going around with a click track all the time in your ears, but people get trained to think of a particular song with a rhythm, and you kind of get that in your head.

We have covered a lot more ground than I expected to on what was just a, what does this mean?

And it has gone into far more directions than I expected to.

It's very exciting.

Thank you to our guests, Professor Nina Krause, Dr.

Maria Vitek, and on the drums, Mark Richardson.

And I hope that answers a lot of your questions.

Yeah, does it?

Do you feel...

I think it has, you know, we know that rhythm is pretty innate, that humans love the act of mimicry.

We know that some people are better at synchronizing than others, namely Mark.

And that coordination is key, and that you're going to have to practice for the rest of your life to be a good drummer.

And even then, you still might not be good at jazz.

No, no, I won't.

What's been particularly interesting is that drummers are the brains that are expanding all the time in a band, which really confounds the regular stereotype about drummers, Richard.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I know.

We're the butt of all the jokes, but actually, we know the

score.

Quietly there, banging away.

Your brain's getting stronger minute by minute.

Hannah, can you play us out with an eight-minute solo?

No, but maybe Mark can.

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Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member Fenra SIPC.

Wealthfront is not a bank.

The APY on cash deposits as of December 27, 2024 is representative, subject to change, and requires no minimum.

Funds in the cash account are swept to partner banks where they earn the variable APY.

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