Talking Dateline: Open Water

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Speaker 2 Hi, everyone. I'm Blaine Alexander and today we are Talking Dateline.
And today is a special edition of Talking Dateline because we have not one, but two guests here.

Speaker 2 Of course, the one and only only Josh Mankowitz. Hi, Josh.

Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 2 And we are also joined by Dateline producer Michelle Madigan to talk about their episode, Open Water. Michelle, thank you for joining us.

Speaker 1 Hi, Blaine. It's great to be here.

Speaker 2 So good to have you. Okay, before we jump into the conversation, if you haven't seen this episode yet, you can go find it on the Dateline podcast feed.

Speaker 2 So go there, listen to it, and then come right back here.

Speaker 2 Now to recap, when Lonnie Kakantis invited his wife, Mickey Kanasaki, on a European cruise, she thought it would be a great opportunity to rekindle their relationship.

Speaker 2 But Mickey never got that opportunity. A few days into the cruise, Lonnie woke up to find her missing.
Had she jumped overboard or been pushed off?

Speaker 2 As police looked into Lonnie as a possible suspect, his friends took the investigation into their own hands to try and prove his innocence.

Speaker 2 And what they found changed the course of the case and their lives forever. For this talking dateline, we've got an extra clip from Lonnie's friend Bill about an interesting hobby of his.

Speaker 2 But first, let's talk dateline. Let's do it.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about Lonnie because Lonnie,

Speaker 2 you guys took me on an emotional roller coaster with Lonnie. I have to say, I, I mean, about 18 minutes in, I said, okay, this man clearly did it.
And then 22 minutes in, I said, no.

Speaker 2 And then halfway through, I just had no idea. So, I mean, that's the mark of a good dateline episode, obviously.

Speaker 2 But, I mean, let's talk about this guy because he is somebody who, obviously, he's a lawyer. He's intelligent.
He did well in law school. He kind of knows a lot here.

Speaker 1 He was a very smart guy and a very good lawyer. Yeah.
You know, one of the things that I,

Speaker 1 one of the things I kind of wondered about was what drew Mickey to him because the thing that was missing from him was some sort of winning personality.

Speaker 1 Like he made a lot of money and he was a senior partner. And so, you know, his prestige through his job probably, you know, was part of the draw, part of what made him more charismatic.

Speaker 1 He certainly knew his way around the legal profession and a courtroom.

Speaker 1 Exactly what made him so attractive to Mickey, I'm not sure. But she

Speaker 1 really was taken with him and believed in him and thought this can, you know, this, this, this affair and

Speaker 1 marriage can sort of come back from the dead. And I think that's what motivated her was like, this can still work and it'll it'll make me happy and they'll make him happy.

Speaker 1 It'll be great, which is sort of partly, you know, one more reason why this is so incredibly diabolical and awful, because it was not just killing someone.

Speaker 1 It was killing someone who, up until the last second, thought,

Speaker 1 he loves me and he's trying to make this work like with me.

Speaker 1 And then suddenly she had to realize in the last seconds, wait, this is all about getting me onto this ship, this particular ship, with this particular drop straight into the ocean.

Speaker 1 And this is about killing me.

Speaker 2 Let's talk about this cruise ship. In fact, let's just talk about water in general.
When the story started for me,

Speaker 2 you know, we always talk about the fact that the setting is often its own character in Dateline, right?

Speaker 2 Whether it's like a lonely dark road or whether it's a small town where everyone knows each other or a hiking

Speaker 1 and doesn't lock their doors. And doesn't lock their doors.

Speaker 1 Don't leave that out.

Speaker 1 Nobody ever needs to lock their doors or uh a hiking trail right or whatever it may be there's all of the character the beauty of nature right also exactly right also savage and dangerous all right go ahead yeah

Speaker 2 you got it it's like you wrote the book on this josh um

Speaker 1 water

Speaker 1 i cannot

Speaker 2 For me personally, I cannot imagine a more terrifying place than water. I'm personally scared of water.

Speaker 1 I can't swim.

Speaker 2 So, you know, fun blain fact in there.

Speaker 1 You can't swim?

Speaker 2 I am unable to swim.

Speaker 2 Fun fact, I'm actually taking swimming lessons starting here very soon.

Speaker 2 So if any of our listeners or viewers know how to

Speaker 2 help an adult overcome a fear of water, please reach out because I'm looking for tips.

Speaker 1 Look, swimming lessons is a great idea.

Speaker 1 Weren't you an athlete like in high school? I was a runner.

Speaker 2 I ran track. I stayed completely dry.
I didn't even do the sepal chase where you had to jump in that little pool of water.

Speaker 1 I stay on on land, my friend. Wow.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Which is, ironically, I just shot a story on a boat.

Speaker 2 Looked totally fine on air, and it was good. But anyway,

Speaker 1 but behind the scenes, you were nervous.

Speaker 2 It was the getting on and getting off part when you have to go down that little, anyway.

Speaker 1 This is a

Speaker 1 fun

Speaker 1 along the lines of you not knowing how to swim. My mom

Speaker 1 never learned how to swim because when she was a kid,

Speaker 1 some male relative, I think not her father, maybe like her uncle, took her to the ocean and threw her in.

Speaker 1 And, you know, in my mom's telling,

Speaker 1 she, you know, nearly drowned, you know, I'm sure. You know, and like that made her terrified of water.
And she

Speaker 1 and she never learned to swim. She would go to the beach with us, she would go to the pool with us, but she would not get in the water.
ever. Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's a big difference between a swimming pool, which is contained.

Speaker 2 And if you go to the bottom, you can like push push yourself up and still live and the ocean, which is a living body of water that will swallow you up and never spit you back out, which is why I was so very surprised that the body was ultimately found here.

Speaker 2 And obviously, Lonnie was too. But that, I mean, that never happens, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, look,

Speaker 1 I mean, I mean, the worst luck ever if you're Lonnie Kakatis.

Speaker 1 I mean, you know, if she sinks and she isn't found. He gets away with it.
He's probably walking around today and there might be suspicions, but there's nothing.

Speaker 1 I mean, without the body, there isn't a case against him.

Speaker 2 And Michelle, I want to ask you about this.

Speaker 2 I loved hearing from the boat captain, who, mind you, wasn't a member of the Coast Guard, wasn't looking for her, wasn't part of the search party, and just kind of heard an alert.

Speaker 2 Hey, we're looking for someone who went overboard, lost at sea. And against all odds, spotted her out in the Mediterranean and open water.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, he said she wanted to be found. I mean, that's he was, he had no business finding her, but she, she was right in his path.

Speaker 1 And hadn't been in the water so long that all kinds of forensic things weren't possible. They were, like, they knew.
Like she had been, she was hit on the head before she went in the water.

Speaker 1 She did not die of drowning. I mean, for Lonnie, it was the worst possible luck.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 The revelation that you gave us later on as to why he chose that cruise ship, I loved that.

Speaker 2 First, I love that you said, first off, this isn't, when people think of a Mediterranean cruise, you're like, oh, this is nice, good food, it's going to be great, you know, accommodations.

Speaker 2 Not the case here. This is kind of like an old kind of shiny.

Speaker 1 It's a ferry. Yeah,

Speaker 1 it was a car ferry, right? I mean,

Speaker 1 which had been converted into

Speaker 1 a cruise ship. And by the time we were on the story, it had been scrapped.
It was no longer seaworthy at the end.

Speaker 1 I think, you know, in addition to you pointing up the thing about the, you know, being afraid of the water plane,

Speaker 1 I I think what this says is, and I think that any dateline viewer

Speaker 1 is going to understand this. I'm not saying you'll all agree with it, but I think you'll understand.
Stay off the cruises.

Speaker 1 I mean, just stay off the cruises because terrible things happen on cruise ships. Sometimes they lose power, they're stuck in the middle of the ocean for a bunch of days.

Speaker 1 We don't do those stories, right? But there's all kinds of like, then there's like the whole kind of like norovirus, foodborne illness thing. That's terrible.

Speaker 1 But then, then there is the component of cruising that is featured so often on Dateline, which is people go out on cruises and they do not come back.

Speaker 1 And given the fact that you can just find like an Airbnb with a view of the ocean, that to me is better than going on a cruise.

Speaker 1 So in the answer to the question you have not asked, Josh, would you ever go on a cruise? The answer is absolutely not.

Speaker 2 Hard pass. Josh has thoughts about this, I see.
It's never easy setting up a dateline story.

Speaker 2 There are always a million moving pieces, but this had to have made it all the more difficult to try and do this during a pandemic and not even be there. It really did.
I mean,

Speaker 2 this story was unique because we started it before the pandemic. In fact, a lot of the witnesses who testified came from Italy and had already testified in like February of 2020.

Speaker 2 And then they all had to obviously get back.

Speaker 2 you know and again italy was the first to shut down and they put the trial on pause and we kind of waited and it was right at the point of the trial that the prosecution had rested.

Speaker 2 The defendant was going to take the stand. They didn't want to declare a mistrial and

Speaker 2 have to redo it all over again. So they just patiently kept in touch with us, kept in touch with the jurors.
And eventually they were able to resume it in May.

Speaker 2 But again, we were all, we were stuck at home.

Speaker 1 We couldn't go. The very few things would have made me happier than if Michelle and I had been able to go there, which was originally the plan.
I thought, this is going to be great.

Speaker 1 We're going to be off the coast of Naples, Italy for a week.

Speaker 1 I was going to bring my wife over, probably take another week. And then COVID happened.
And first, Italy shut down, and then we did too. And so we ended up

Speaker 1 not being able to go do this story. So the interviews that were done in Italy were done

Speaker 1 with producers that local producers

Speaker 1 that Michelle hired there. And they did a great job.
And I don't think the story suffered.

Speaker 1 I think I suffered. I think I continue to suffer.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 I think the story came out fine. But that was originally behind it was we were going to go shoot this thing.
And then because of COVID, we were unable to.

Speaker 2 Here's what I can tell you as I was watching this episode, I could immediately tell.

Speaker 2 And I was thinking to myself, this had to have been during COVID, because one, Josh, if you had been there in Italy, I would have known it. The viewer would have known it.

Speaker 2 We would have seen you in, you know, Italian settings. We would have seen you there and really kind of making the most of this trip, you know, woven throughout the day.

Speaker 1 You would have noticed that my wardrobe changed from the early interviews to the later interviews. That's what you would have.
I would have bought everything I saw.

Speaker 1 That did not happen.

Speaker 2 Okay, when we get back, we've got an extra clip from Lonnie's friend, Bill Price.

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Speaker 2 Can't think of a more fascinating set of characters than Bill and Susan.

Speaker 2 I mean, aside from people who've been directly involved in the crime, but like when you started going through their background, Josh, I mean, just former law enforcement, investigators,

Speaker 2 she randomly speaks Italian, which came significantly in handy. I mean, these are the types of people that I certainly would want on my side if I were to ever go missing.

Speaker 1 I would have these friends.

Speaker 1 These are exactly the kind of people that you would want defending you if you were wrongly accused of something, which was what Lonnie certainly appeared to be at the beginning, that he was kind of getting railroaded by these Italian authorities who were kind of looking for anybody and settled on him.

Speaker 1 Bill and Susan are exactly who you want in your corner in a situation like like that. Seasoned investigators.
She speaks the language and they believe in your innocence.

Speaker 1 And then the more they dug, I mean, it really, the story, you know, was not just Mickey and Lonnie's story, but it was also the story of Bill and Susan and their quest and how they sort of, you know, did everything that they know how to do.

Speaker 1 And it kept coming up.

Speaker 1 The arrow kept pointing toward Lonnie and not away from him. And

Speaker 1 that's partly what made this a great story

Speaker 1 is this double story.

Speaker 2 I'm curious, watching them, watching the interview that you did,

Speaker 2 especially with Bill, it's kind of like watching his mind kind of cycle through this, right? At first, just so they're in defense of his friend.

Speaker 2 And then around the polygraph, you know, when he comes back and he goes back to his ex-wife that nobody knew about.

Speaker 1 You know, Bill is like, what in the world is wrong with you?

Speaker 2 You're smarter than this. You know this.
And then the polygraph and just kind of watching the wheels turn in his mind as he comes to the realization of what happened here.

Speaker 2 I'm curious, did they start to suspect Lonnie before that polygraph? Or were they just thinking, okay, that was a dumb idea. That was a bad mistake?

Speaker 1 I think what they were hoping was that the polygraph would put any questions about Lonnie's guilt

Speaker 1 to rest. And in this case, Bill and Susan were...
sort of in the same, you know, they had the sort of the same ethos as law enforcement. They're thinking like, you know, what's he going to say?

Speaker 1 What's he going to do? And if he's willing to take it and he passes it and he's forthright, then I think, you know, they're in a different place.

Speaker 1 But, you know, he couldn't do it. And, you know, Bill and Susan have too much integrity to cover for anybody, including a friend of theirs.

Speaker 2 When Lonnie took the polygraph, I was almost wondering which way it would go, whether Bill, you know, obviously they were so very close, like,

Speaker 2 you know, would they try and side with him? Obviously, the fact that they were talking to you lets you know that they kind of stayed on the right side of this whole thing.

Speaker 2 But, you know, you wondered for a second, and it was very clear the moment they realized, no, this man is guilty, this is going straight to the FBI.

Speaker 2 I also love that Bill confronted him, called him over and said, hey, you need to tell me to my face. And now I'm sending this to the FBI.

Speaker 1 Strong move. Yep.
Yep. Yep.
I mean, he's an honorable guy.

Speaker 2 So we also learned something interesting about Bill and Susan. They love dogs.

Speaker 2 When you came back at the top of the act, I don't remember which one it was, but the first shot that we saw were just well-groomed dogs.

Speaker 1 I said, oh, where are we going with this?

Speaker 2 This is a, this is another twist and turn.

Speaker 2 And it was so funny. As soon as we got, as soon as the dog show footage was over, I immediately noticed the gold dog necklaces that each of them had on.

Speaker 2 Like, okay, this is, you know, now I get a little bit about them. Oh, yeah.
I mean, the dog, they are both, it's how I kind of found them. I mean, I found

Speaker 2 their names through this kennel club that they run. And it was how I reached out.
And, and then that continued to be something we would talk a lot about.

Speaker 2 We had to work around their schedules because they were doing dog shows. She was showing dogs.
And, you know, I think also when I said, Can we come to a dog show? Can we film you there?

Speaker 2 They were like, Absolutely. You know, he was very proud of that part of his life.
And

Speaker 2 I was glad that we could feature it on a little bit on the show. And then, and then, yeah, take a look if you want to hear

Speaker 1 what to say about it. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Let's listen to that sound.

Speaker 4 My name is Bill Price. I currently am am an AKC delegate with the American Kennel Club.
The American Kennel Club has numerous dog shows across the United States.

Speaker 4 Right now we're in Tampa.

Speaker 4 We are a five-day show. We're averaging 2,400 dogs each day.

Speaker 4 I've never owned a dog myself until about the 1990s. I found this little puppy.
It was just the cutest little thing you've ever seen.

Speaker 4 And I noticed this puppy started putting on approximately a half a pound a week. Kept getting bigger and the paws were enormous.
And then one day somebody says, Well, you have a mastiff.

Speaker 4 It's one of the largest breeds out here. A mastiff is known for its drool.
It's known for taking a tail and clearing a whole coffee table.

Speaker 1 And they go up to 250, 300 pounds.

Speaker 4 A lot of people are afraid of them because of their size. But they also have been nicknamed the General Giant.

Speaker 4 People that own dogs, people that come to these dog shows would step in front of a truck for their dogs.

Speaker 4 You can leave for an hour and come back, and they're wagging and jumping like you left for months. It's unconditional love.

Speaker 1 That is

Speaker 1 something.

Speaker 1 There isn't a tougher guy out there than Bill Price. And look how sort of soft and squishy he gets when he's talking about his dog.
I mean, he's like, you know.

Speaker 2 That's people with their dogs and their kids. I mean, it brings out a whole different side, right? Do either of you have dogs? I have two.

Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah.
So, yes.

Speaker 2 I understand that love.

Speaker 1 I understand that love. Got it.

Speaker 2 Okay. After the break, Josh and Michelle are going to answer your questions and your many comments about this case from social media.

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Speaker 2 Well, as you may imagine, we had a lot of social media comments and questions about this. So let's fire through a few of these.

Speaker 2 Sharon Champagne, talking about cruises, Josh, Sharon says, so many horrible cruise ship stories. I would, however, go to Italy in a New York minute.

Speaker 1 Well, Sharon Champagne is somebody I know from social media. Sharon, I completely agree with you.
Yes. Cruise ships, no italy yes

Speaker 2 do it do it you'll love it that's the moral of this entire story right there um tracy trace i'm 411 which means i will never fall off of a cruise ship uh fingers crossed emojis perks of being vertically challenged

Speaker 1 never say it ever yeah but you know that's a That's a compelling argument. That still doesn't mean you should go on a cruise.
You shouldn't.

Speaker 2 This one, I believe, is a little tongue-in-cheek. Southern Beach Girl writes, what a romantic cruise, a stateroom with two twin beds.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I love that people notice that detail.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I mean, I just sort of, I keep coming back to how Mickey felt about this. You know, she was so looking forward to it and she bought all this stuff for the cruise, you know.

Speaker 1 And then, of course, she gets there and it turns out like it's not what she thought. It's not this fabulous luxury cruise.
Lonnie is not breaking with character.

Speaker 1 He's being his old cheap, devious self.

Speaker 2 This is a great question from Patricia D,

Speaker 2 who writes, these days with AI, how do they tell the difference between a genuine recording and an AI one?

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, you know, first of all,

Speaker 1 there was no AI when this happened.

Speaker 1 But I would imagine that going forward,

Speaker 1 deep fake videos and deep fake audio is going to figure in in a lot of investigations and probably in cases that we end up doing on daylight in which somebody appears to be

Speaker 1 confessing to a crime or saying something that implicates them in a crime, and then it turns out it wasn't them at all. I absolutely predict that happening.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's sort of like, you know, it's sort of like, you know, tracking devices like the Apple AirTag. I mean,

Speaker 1 they're already turning up in all kinds of stories. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay. I love it when our viewers pay attention to the writing.
This is always so rewarding as as a correspondent and writer.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Dogged and determined investigator and they show dogs. That's from Meredith.

Speaker 1 That is a great line. Yes.

Speaker 1 Meredith's line. Josh's line.

Speaker 1 I'm pointing at you, Josh.

Speaker 1 I think that was you.

Speaker 1 I don't remember.

Speaker 2 This is 2020. There's a lot that I don't remember from 2020.

Speaker 1 Sign of good teamwork.

Speaker 2 Sign of good teamwork.

Speaker 1 That's true. That's true.

Speaker 2 No, that one stood out immediately when I saw it. I said, ah, I love it.
Dog video.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Somebody said, Helene said, Lonnie, throwing people off of ships and under the bus.

Speaker 1 Okay, that's a line we should have used. We should have.
We definitely missed opportunity there. Come on.
We need Helene.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I love it. Well, we have, and this is a good one to end on.
Okay. This is pure honesty for you.
Great handle, by the way.

Speaker 2 If I truly believed my friend was innocent, I would do everything I could to make sure my friend isn't found guilty of something they did not do.

Speaker 2 But once that doubt starts to hit, I'm singing like a canary.

Speaker 1 And that was Bill and Susan. I mean, that in a nutshell was Bill and Susan.
Like they, they,

Speaker 1 there is no question, they really wanted Lonnie to be innocent. They joined this because they thought Lonnie was going to get railroaded.

Speaker 1 And then once they realized they were wrong and Lonnie did do it, they completely gave up on that and changed sides. Yeah.
And good for them.

Speaker 2 And good for them. This was a fascinating episode.
And I loved having both of you on to talk about it, Josh. Me too.

Speaker 1 Michelle, you should always come on. Oh, gosh.

Speaker 1 I don't know about that. Thanks, Josh.
You're welcome.

Speaker 2 Anytime and every time. Thank you, guys.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 2 And that's it for Talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC.

Speaker 2 And if you have a question for Talking Dateline, you can leave it for us in a voicemail at 212-413-5252. I think Michelle gets those calls.
Michelle.

Speaker 1 I do. Michelle, who answers those calls?

Speaker 1 Michelle.

Speaker 1 That goes right to Keith. No one can get to the phone.
Troubling. Really? Who answers those calls? That's what we always tell viewers.
Yes.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 I hope our viewers call because you never know what treat you'll get on the other end, but it will give you a chance to be featured on a future episode.

Speaker 2 And one more thing before we go, and this is a very important thing. Remember, dateline is hitting the road.
Josh, you and I are taking a trip.

Speaker 1 Yes, we are.

Speaker 2 And we want you to join us on Sunday, September 28th. The entire team, that's Lester, Keith, Josh, Andrea, Dennis, and I, will all be in the beautiful city of Nashville for Dateline Live.

Speaker 2 It's a first-of-its-kind event featuring on-stage panels, audience QAs, and a VIP reception.

Speaker 2 And let me tell you, if you think that we're fun and all over the place on these talking datelines, you ought to see us in person. It's not to be missed.

Speaker 2 tickets are on sale right now at dateline nbc.com slash event you can also find a link in the description of this very episode and of course as always we will see you fridays on dateline on nbc thanks so much for listening

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