Talking Dateline: Secrets of the Sliding Door

Speaker 1 Struggling to see up close? Make it visible with Viz. Viz is a once-daily prescription eye drop to treat blurry near vision for up to 10 hours.

Speaker 1 The most common side effects that may be experienced while using Viz include eye irritation, temporary dim or dark vision, headaches, and eye redness.

Speaker 1 Talk to an eye doctor to learn if Viz is right for you. Learn more at Viz.com.

Speaker 2 From the Creator of Homeland, Claire Danes and Matthew Rees star in the new Netflix series The Beast in Me as ruthless rivals whose shared darkness will set them on a collision course with fatal consequences.

Speaker 2 The Beast in Me is a riveting psychological cat and mouse story about guilt and justice and doubt, now playing only on Netflix.

Speaker 2 Hi, everybody. It's Josh Bankowitz, and we're talking Dateline.
Today, with Keith Morrison. Hi, Keith.
Hello, Josh.

Speaker 2 I'll take mm-hmm as great to see you, Josh. We're going to be talking about Keith's episode, which is called Secrets of the Sliding Door.

Speaker 2 Now, if you haven't seen this yet, you can stream it on Peacock and then you can head back here for the chat. So here's a quick recap.

Speaker 2 After a high school teacher named Simonette Mapes Croupy was found stabbed to death inside her Staten Island, New York home, one of the five boroughs.

Speaker 2 Her place had been ransacked. Detectives started with a couple of theories.
Was this a home invasion? Was it a gang shooting?

Speaker 2 But it was only when they found the mysterious phone number of a woman who identified herself

Speaker 2 only as Ms. Pumpkin on Simonette's phone that detectives uncovered a killer that was much closer to home.
And of course, because this is Dateline, it was her husband, Jonathan Krupy.

Speaker 2 Hey, hey, hey, hey. Now,

Speaker 2 what?

Speaker 2 Well, you know,

Speaker 2 you put the spoiler alert right out there, just for fun. Have you ever listened to Talking Dayline before? They already have seen the episode.
No, only if they follow your inane directions, Josh.

Speaker 2 I never do. I mean, seriously.
Yeah. Come on.
Are we having technical difficulties here? No, you never knew. Okay.
Well,

Speaker 2 spoiler alert, I knew, and all the people watching and listening knew. Sure.
Later, we're going to be joined by another Keith. That's Keith Greenberg, who's one of the producers in this episode.

Speaker 2 And we'll also have a couple of extra clips from interviews with Simonette's friends and family that did not make it into the show. Simonette, known as Sissy, right? Yep.

Speaker 2 Yes. Sissy, the lovely Sissy.
She was just a delightful person and somebody who cared a great deal about other people. So, you know,

Speaker 2 she is deeply missed even now.

Speaker 2 And I think that really emerged from your episode.

Speaker 2 We're also going to be listening to and answering some of the questions that you send into us on social media and other ways, like that phone line that rings on keith's desk yeah so stick around for that yeah uh

Speaker 2 all right keith let's talk dateline

Speaker 2 so um

Speaker 2 the question that i had again and again and again while i was watching this episode is about ms pumpkin ah yes of course

Speaker 2 the intriguing character in the story I'm pretty sure Ms. Pumpkin is not the name she was born with.
I think you're probably accurately correct about that.

Speaker 2 You know, this is a pretty familiar trope in both journalism and in,

Speaker 2 you know, movie making and TV, which is, you know, the quote hooker with the heart of gold, unquote, the person who is engaged in the commercial sex trade, but is a solid citizen like everybody else and wants to help out.

Speaker 2 And sort of once she realized, Ms. Pumpkin, that

Speaker 2 the guy that she knew by a different name was in fact the suspect in this case,

Speaker 2 it sounds like she pretty much did everything she could to help out law enforcement. Well, yes,

Speaker 2 you know, I'm not sure she was falling head over heels to do so, but at the same time, well, let me say this about Ms. Pumpkin.

Speaker 2 As far as I can tell, she was a kind of a modern person in the sense that

Speaker 2 she was not in any way,

Speaker 2 she did not feel diminished by what she she did. It was a business.
She ran it as a business, but she also was doing other things with her life.

Speaker 2 I was struck by what the prosecutor said about Ms. Pumpkin afterwards, which was, you know, sort of, you know, what a nice person she was.

Speaker 2 She said,

Speaker 2 this is going to sound strange coming from me, but when you step up when you are needed, when it is time to do the right thing, and then you do the right thing, it doesn't make any difference how you're making your money.

Speaker 2 No, it doesn't. It doesn't at all.
And

Speaker 2 that particular prosecutor was an astute judge of character.

Speaker 2 Right away, there were theories of what happened

Speaker 2 to Sissy. And, you know, sort of home invasion slash burglary is sort of one of the first things that

Speaker 2 people's minds go to. Except,

Speaker 2 you know, the biggest danger when you surprise a burglar in your home is that you're between them and the door. I mean, burglars do not come into your home to kill you.

Speaker 2 Burglars come into your home to steal your stuff. And what they really want is for you to not be there at any part.
So

Speaker 2 the fact that she was, in fact, killed by whoever this was and that

Speaker 2 she was stabbed so many times, that does not feel like a burglary.

Speaker 2 And in addition to that, the house was so completely ransacked from top to bottom, and yet nothing significant appeared to have been taken.

Speaker 2 So somebody wanted to make it look like a total mess. Somebody wanted to make it look like a robbery without actually robbing.

Speaker 2 Upstairs in one of the bedrooms was a purportedly valuable collection of sneakers,

Speaker 2 which

Speaker 2 Krupi collected over the years and traded and paid, you know, it was a kind of a secondary income for him.

Speaker 2 And those could have brought somebody some money, and those were not stolen. And they were not taken.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 This

Speaker 2 kind of begs another question because I'm talking to someone right now who is famous for wearing sneakers.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I think our listeners would like to know how many pairs of sneakers do you have, Keith?

Speaker 2 You know what? I don't know, but I'll tell you what I have is a closet with a bunch of, I don't know, probably a dozen pairs of those kind of sneakers, those particular sneakers.

Speaker 2 Are you afraid to say the brand because you don't have a marketing agreement with Keith? You mean Conference or these guys right here? Come on, here we go. Here we go.

Speaker 2 go i'm talking gay low we got a shot at keith's feet trying to make it trying to make it over there

Speaker 2 come on there we go all right never mind i never made it there uh gentle listener keith has just knocked over the microphone by attempting to show us his sneakers all right uh back to um

Speaker 2 back to our story so um

Speaker 2 uh nobody stole jonathan's sneaker collection which was clearly pretty marketable it was the kind of thing a steep a thief would steal Yes.

Speaker 2 So then they look at the alibi, because, you know, the husband's always the first one you look at. Well, he lives there.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And, you know,

Speaker 2 he had a great alibi. In fact, he had an alibi that was proven all day long by digital evidence

Speaker 2 that he'd gone to the school, he'd talked to an administrator there. He had picked up some supplies.
He had gone here. He'd gone there.
He'd gone the other place. And he'd gone to get the car.

Speaker 2 I don't know. And then he said he went to the Home Depot for in the afternoon before he came home.
And that's when he discovered her body.

Speaker 2 The one problem with the alibi was there was no video at the Home Depot. So, you know, if Jonathan had not mentioned the trip to Home Depot on which he could not be found,

Speaker 2 would that have been a problem? No, it had to be somewhere. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I was going to say that might have made his alibi a little bit stronger, but on the other hand, then it would have left left a gap. Exactly.
Yeah. But the gap would have been

Speaker 2 at a time when they knew she was already dead.

Speaker 2 That's true. You know, it's a good call.
It's hard to know.

Speaker 2 It's hard to know whether it would have been better or not, but that was the choice he made.

Speaker 2 When we get back, we've got two interview clips to play that did not make it into the broadcast from Sissy's friends and family. Looking to crack the code on your career?

Speaker 2 Well, maybe it's time to get your degree. Southern New Hampshire University offers over 200 programs you can complete online.
No safe class times means you can do it all on your schedule.

Speaker 2 And with some of the lowest online tuition rates in the U.S., they make getting your degree affordable, too.

Speaker 2 Get started at SNHU.edu slash dateline. That's snhu dot edu slash dateline.
Most holiday gifts end up in a drawer or the back of your closet or accidentally left at your cousin's house. Not this one.

Speaker 2 Mint Mobile is offering unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month. That's their best deal of the year, aka a holiday gift you'll actually use every single day.
Don't get them socks.

Speaker 2 Get them premium wireless for $15 a month. Shop Mint Unlimited plans at mintmobile.com/slash dateline.
That's mintmobile.com/slash dateline. Limited time offer.

Speaker 2 Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for 6 months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required, $15 per month equivalent.
Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only.

Speaker 2 Greater than 35 gigabytes may slow when the network is busy. Capable device required.
Availability, speed, and coverage vary. See Mintmobile.com.

Speaker 3 If you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Granger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible.

Speaker 3 So, when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem.

Speaker 3 With Granger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRANGER, clickgranger.com, or just stop by.

Speaker 1 Granger for the ones who get it done.

Speaker 2 So, now we're joined by Keith Greenberg, one of the producers of this episode, and also

Speaker 2 my favorite Keith, I'm going to say.

Speaker 2 That's not a hard call, Josh. You know,

Speaker 2 we haven't talked quite enough about Sissy. I mean, she absolutely could have gotten a job teaching on Staten Island right near her family.
Oh, sure.

Speaker 2 Instead, she chose to go to a much tougher neighborhood in Brooklyn, and that really kind of tells you a lot about her. Sure.
And I'm sure you spoke to some of her students too, didn't you, Keith?

Speaker 2 I did, yes.

Speaker 2 You know, I think that she truly believed she had at one point

Speaker 2 contemplated becoming a nun. And I do think she was dedicated to a life of service.
She was very good to animals and very kind to animals. She would pick up strays.

Speaker 2 She felt her life was to serve these children. And in some way, she's still doing it because they all have taken something of her with them.

Speaker 2 She would take

Speaker 2 her underprivileged kids out for dinner together to celebrate various things, places that they would never otherwise have been able to go.

Speaker 2 But she wanted them to see what life could be if they continued with their studies.

Speaker 2 She was a very popular teacher.

Speaker 2 We spoke with some of her friends and family, obviously, for this episode, but not everything made it in the episode.

Speaker 2 We have an extra clip here of uh sissy's cousin victoria and her childhood friend eric let's let's listen to those sissy was about 10 years older than i am

Speaker 4 and i looked to her like a big sister growing up i had a difficult home life and she

Speaker 4 helped my brother and i have a sense of family and guidance Sissy laid down the blueprint for how I wanted to be as a woman.

Speaker 2 I literally lived next to Simonette Mapes. My room was right next to her room.
So she'd knock

Speaker 2 on my wall.

Speaker 2 And then we kind of talk a little bit through the wall. I mean, the walls are kind of paper thin back then.
Oh, man, Simonette, I tell you, she had a heart of gold, to be honest with you.

Speaker 2 She was extremely nice, extremely kind.

Speaker 2 and just a very loving heart. Yeah, that gives you an idea.
It really does. I mean, it really gives you a sense of who she was and what a loss this was.
So

Speaker 2 Sissy's mom, who really I thought was kind of the emotional heart of this story,

Speaker 2 and you really got a great sense in this episode of sort of the anguish that she went through and is still going through because this doesn't go away.

Speaker 2 You know, they had that conversation the night before she was murdered.

Speaker 2 And that's the kind of thing, thing, if you're a parent, you just end up replaying again and again and again and again, looking even though, you know,

Speaker 2 what did I not hear? What should I have asked? I mean,

Speaker 2 that has to be miserable for her to go through.

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't, I think maybe they had a sense, her family and Sissy also had a sense that, you know, Jonathan was maybe not the right guy for her, but that he was a threat to her life.

Speaker 2 I don't think they sensed that at all.

Speaker 2 No one ever sensed that. The students never sensed that.
He was loved at his school. He was,

Speaker 2 someone, one of his former students called him, quote, a big little kid. He would talk to the class in cartoon voices and came to school once dressed as the character Wolverine.

Speaker 2 And I remember the brother telling me a story when we were just chatting. that one time he brought Jonathan Kroupby to a bachelor party.

Speaker 2 And Jonathan Krupi didn't seem to know how to behave properly in a strip club. He seemed embarrassed.
And so

Speaker 2 her family thought he was the last person who could be involved in something like this.

Speaker 2 Here's something that wasn't in the episode, which is that we know that Jonathan Croupy was sentenced to 25 years in prison. But after he was incarcerated,

Speaker 2 Apparently he created an online dating profile. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And on his profile, this sounds like a macabre joke, but it's not.

Speaker 2 He wrote, I'm not married and I don't have any kids. No baby mama drama here.
I'm guessing that his, that Simonet's family is

Speaker 2 not thrilled about

Speaker 2 that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 They're aghast.

Speaker 2 And he's a bright guy. So he's also,

Speaker 2 from what I understand, teaching in prison. And so, you know, he's, he's, you know, he's doing time, but it might be considered easy time by the standards of her family.

Speaker 2 I'm sure to her family, it's easy time. Yeah, it probably is, yeah.

Speaker 2 Up next, we are finally going to answer some of the questions you've been leaving for us on Keith's voicemail.

Speaker 5 Some stories never make national headlines, but stories from small towns and coastal communities deserve recognition, too.

Speaker 5 I'm Kylie Lowe, host of Dark Down East, a true crime podcast that gives voice to victims through investigative journalism and powerful storytelling.

Speaker 5 Set in my home state of Maine and the greater New England area, it's my goal to dig through the archives to bring the stories of the people at the heart of these cases to light.

Speaker 5 Listen to Dark Down East, wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 6 If you're a smoker or dipper ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zen nicotine pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

Speaker 6 Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zen offers a robust rewards program.
There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zen.

Speaker 6 Check out Zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you.

Speaker 6 Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

Speaker 7 A massage chair might seem a bit extravagant, especially these days.

Speaker 8 Eight different settings, adjustable intensity, plus it's heated and it just feels so good.

Speaker 8 Yes, a massage chair might seem a bit extravagant, but when it can come with a car,

Speaker 7 suddenly it seems quite practical. The Volkswagen Tiguan, packed with premium features like available massaging front seats, it only feels extravagant.

Speaker 2 Let's uh

Speaker 2 let's go to viewer mail. Viewer mailer mail.
All right, fine. Yes, that's always Keith Morrison's favorite part of Tiguan.

Speaker 2 absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 2 We play some of the 911 call.

Speaker 2 And, you know,

Speaker 2 you know, you listen to an off date line,

Speaker 2 you're going to hear a lot of 911 calls.

Speaker 2 Some of them frantic, some of them anguished, some of them phony.

Speaker 2 I will say that, again, I didn't know anything about this story when I watched the episode a couple of days ago. And my first thought was, okay, well, this is the guy because

Speaker 2 this sounds utterly phony.

Speaker 9 I just came home. My wife is dead.
Oh my God. I think my house was robbed.

Speaker 2 General Lafante on Facebook wrote, you can hear the fake in his voice.

Speaker 2 Danielle Dennis on Facebook said from the 911 call, he was instantly guilty. That's exactly what I thought.
I was like, wow.

Speaker 2 You're incriminating yourself just by your tone of voice. Just by talking, yeah.

Speaker 2 It was true, and it really came true on that 911 call. And

Speaker 2 the prosecution was able to use that. But

Speaker 2 the thing about 911 calls, though, is that they can be very tricky.

Speaker 2 You know, you can make a judgment about them right away, and quite frequently, in some investigations, judgments are made, and it often will lead the police in the wrong direction, sometimes tragically.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 you know, they take it with a grain of salt. But

Speaker 2 I mean, look, look, it's, I mean,

Speaker 2 I did a story several years ago in

Speaker 2 New York State in which a woman

Speaker 2 called 911 and she said, I've just found my mom and

Speaker 2 she's been stabbed. And

Speaker 2 I think she was walking downstairs and she was holding a knife and the cat must have tripped her. And then so she fell down the stairs and she stabbed herself.
And the cops are like writing all this.

Speaker 2 They're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, just a second. Right.
And she says, and by the way, I pulled out the knife.

Speaker 2 So you're going to find my fingerprints and DNA on the knife. And my, my mom is worth quite a bit of money, but this is not how I wanted to get the inheritance.

Speaker 2 That's right. And then the cops are just like, the cops are just like, okay, please continue because we're eating this up.
And it's not her. She was not guilty in any way.

Speaker 2 Years ago, years ago, did a story about this poor sad sack of a fellow whose daughter was murdered in the middle of the night in a bedroom just down the hall from his

Speaker 2 by

Speaker 2 somebody. A stranger came into the house.
He didn't know what had happened. He woke up in the morning.

Speaker 2 He found her dead, and he assumed that she had strangled on a blanket that was wrapped around her neck.

Speaker 2 So he called the police, and he was very, but he was just a low, very shy, low-key person. And his 911 call sounded fake.
It sounded like he didn't care.

Speaker 2 It was just one of those tragic cases that started with a 911 call call that sounded fake, but wasn't.

Speaker 2 Roxanne DeMeza from also, I think, on Facebook, has a theory about the DNA on the door. She says, maybe rather than accidentally putting Ms.

Speaker 2 Pumpkin's DNA on the doorknob, Jonathan did it on purpose to throw off investigators so that they would look for a female killer.

Speaker 2 Possible, I'm going to say that shows a higher degree of planning on Jonathan's part than I think he was capable of at the time. I think you'd have to agree.
Keith Greenberg is nodding.

Speaker 2 Yes, I would have to concur with that.

Speaker 2 He was not a criminal mastermind, even though he thought he was. You know, he was a, he lived in a bit of a fantasy, and I think he read too many comic books.

Speaker 2 We checked the talking dateline voicemail and came across

Speaker 2 a bunch of interesting things.

Speaker 2 First of all,

Speaker 2 Keith Morrison, you have an overdue bill at Sneakers R Us. So that's true.
You want to get in there. I'm always behind on that one.

Speaker 2 Here's one for both of us.

Speaker 9 Hi, my name is Piper, and I have a question for, I guess, the whole team. Do you ever finish an interview with someone, specifically the person who perpetrated the crime, and just wonder

Speaker 9 how they can deadpan lie to you? Or do you ever just get so angry that people are so clearly lying?

Speaker 9 And have you ever mouthed off to any of them to just tell them that you think they're horrible people?

Speaker 2 Thanks.

Speaker 2 Keith, you want to add?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 you know, when you're talking to somebody who's accused of committing murder and probably did,

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 they've got a story that has been very carefully rehearsed over and over again.

Speaker 2 They're going to tell you that story and they're going to tell it with a straight face and they're going to put them, they're going to be on their absolute best behavior, even if they've been convicted of the crime and they've been sitting in jail for a while.

Speaker 2 They're coming off. The whole thing is that's not me.

Speaker 2 This is all, this is all, you know, my ex-wife's family and the cops, they're all in league together to make me look like a terrible person.

Speaker 2 But there have been a couple of occasions where somebody has

Speaker 2 their excuse was so

Speaker 2 egregious and so took advantage of people so horribly that I did get somewhat cross with them. I have to confess.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Here's my answer to this: which is: if you're a reporter, you got to get used to people lying to you because it's not just murderers that lie to us, it's a huge number of people that I've covered in what's now nearly a 50-year career.

Speaker 2 And instead of getting angry, your obligation as a journalist to the audience and to

Speaker 2 your readers of your newspaper reporter or print is to expose those lies, not yell at them. So there have been times when I, I, I, you know, you can say a lot more with a look on television than,

Speaker 2 you know, with a, with a, uh,

Speaker 2 with any particular comment. But, sir, yeah, Keith and I and Andrea and Blaine and Lester and Dennis, we've all said, yeah,

Speaker 2 come on, come on, come on, try something else. Yeah, they're pitching a story.

Speaker 2 And you know that there's an old rule when you're interviewing people involved in something like this, is that everybody lies. Everybody lies all the time.
So

Speaker 2 you just adjust your behavior accordingly. That's it for talking to Dateline this week.
Keith, thank you. Other Keith.
I absolutely.

Speaker 2 Oh, you're talking to the other Keith. Of course you are.
I'm always talking to the other Keith. Well, I must say, Other Keith, it's been a delight having you on the program.

Speaker 2 Somebody who actually is astute and remembers all the details. I appreciate it very much.
Well, thank you very much, and I enjoyed being here.

Speaker 2 And remember, if you have any questions for us about about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at at DatelineNBC, or you can leave us a voicemail and we know who answers those voicemails now.

Speaker 2 That number is 212-413-5252.

Speaker 2 Thanks for listening. See you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.

Speaker 2 This time of year, many are checking off their holiday gift lists, but identity thieves have lists too and your personal information might be on them. Protect your identity with Lifelock.

Speaker 2 Lifelock monitors millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock will fix it guaranteed or your money back.

Speaker 2 Save up to 40% your first year at lifelock.com/slash dateline. Terms apply.