Sean Combs: The jury gets the case.

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Speaker 3 This is On Trial, a special series from Dateline True Crime Weekly, bringing you daily coverage from the Sean Combs racketeering trial. He has pleaded not guilty to all the charges against him.

Speaker 3 I'm Blaine Alexander, and it's Monday, June 30th.

Speaker 3 Just a heads up here in this episode, we're going to be talking about some graphic details and harrowing subject matter.

Speaker 3 Today, after more than six weeks of testimony, the jury of eight men and four women from Manhattan, the Bronx, and Westchester got the case.

Speaker 3 Before they did, Judge Arun Subramanian gave them instructions. It's called charging the jury.

Speaker 3 NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos is going to join us to tell us why those instructions might actually be the entire ballgame in this case.

Speaker 3 But first, of course, we're joined by NBC News correspondent Chloe Malas. She's outside of the courthouse, as she has been for almost two months, to tell us what's going on inside.
Hi, Chloe.

Speaker 3 Hey, Blaine. It is unbelievable that we are actually here, I've got to say.
Over a year, I've been waiting for this. Yes, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 3 So I really just want to first talk about the mood around the courthouse. You got there pretty early today.
You had a hit with today show. So we're talking about well before 7 a.m.

Speaker 3 What was the atmosphere like this morning? I mean, there were already people congregating to get inside the doors of the courthouse, members of the press from all over the world.

Speaker 3 You can feel sort of the anticipation, the anxiety a bit in the air. Does it feel different today than it has, say, over the past few weeks?

Speaker 3 I would say there's a sense of relief that things have moved on track, that it does look like this might wrap up before the 4th of July.

Speaker 3 So the judge said that this is when he wanted the jury to get the case. And well, he was right.
He's done it. Absolutely.
They've done it. So the jury is brought in and the judge is charging the jury.

Speaker 3 What did it feel like inside the courtroom? I mean, it's incredibly exciting, right, to be at this pivotal moment in this nearly two-month trial. And the judge, though, going through all of these

Speaker 3 directions, essentially, what sorts of evidence and testimony they can pay attention to and other things that they should exclude and not have, you know, be a part of their decision-making process.

Speaker 3 It's eight men, four women, and perhaps they're not going to see eye to eye on everything.

Speaker 1 Oh, sorry.

Speaker 3 That's what New York City's like. When you're out on the street in front of the courthouse, we can expect a lot of that.

Speaker 3 When you talk about jury instructions, this isn't necessarily the most gripping stuff. I'm curious how jurors were responding.
Were they taking notes? Were they leaning in?

Speaker 3 Were people kind of zoning out? What did it look like? Several of these jurors look incredibly engaged, right?

Speaker 3 I mean, they're taking notes, they're paying very close attention, and there always have been a few that look like they can't wait to get out of there and go to a barbecue or the pool. And look,

Speaker 3 I can't blame them. That is their civic duty.
Blaine, I just can't wait to get to talk to some of these jurors.

Speaker 3 I'll be fascinated to find out what those conversations are like in the deliberation room and what were were they convinced of and what were they not convinced of, if anything.

Speaker 3 Absolutely, absolutely. I'm curious about Combs himself.
How did he appear today? What was his demeanor? Not as stressed out as he looked when prosecutors were making their closing arguments.

Speaker 3 I mean, he had his head in his hands. He was like looking around, fidgety.
I mean, Combs is fighting for his life. Six of his kids were in the courtroom.

Speaker 3 The judge actually closed the room after the jury began deliberating and allowed him to spend some time with them, right? I mean, that's pretty nice. This is Judgment Day.

Speaker 3 So he did, though, seem eerily calm.

Speaker 3 You talked about his family there in the courtroom. I'm curious if anybody else showed up to support him.

Speaker 3 Obviously, earlier we had a celebrity sighting from Kanye West, the rapper formerly known as Kanye West. Yay.
Have we seen any more celebrity sightings? We haven't.

Speaker 3 What we have seen is his mother in the courtroom, Mama Combs, nearly every single day, his children, some friends of his, nieces, nephews, nephews, a former longtime publicist of his.

Speaker 3 It's been packed on his side the last couple of days. What's the overflow like? Is that area still packed? Is it still kind of buzzing? It is.

Speaker 3 You really get to hear what members of the press who can't be in the courtroom because it's too full. So people are kind of sharing their thoughts.
And then obviously people from the street.

Speaker 3 members of the public. And so you'll be in there for certain testimony.

Speaker 3 Like when I go in in the afternoon sometimes and I can't get back into the main courtroom, you hear gasps, you hear laughter, you hear people calling things out. Sometimes there's outbursts.

Speaker 3 Sometimes people are getting thrown out of there. One guy ate like a Subway sandwich and he got kicked out.

Speaker 3 I mean, for a journalist, I don't know if you are, but I'm definitely a bit of an adrenaline chunky. So this lead up and now a verdict potentially soon, it's what it's all about.

Speaker 3 I think we all are to a degree to be in this profession, right? And I completely understand that, right? So now it's just a waiting game, Chloe. I mean, what does that look like?

Speaker 3 Where are people going to be waiting as we wait for the jury to come back? Well, I shall be waiting on a hot New York City sidewalk.

Speaker 3 A lot of people are under their tents, umbrellas. Yes.
But a lot of people are

Speaker 3 staying inside the courthouse. There's a cafeteria on the eighth floor.
And then members of Combs' family and his legal team, they're elsewhere.

Speaker 3 So they will find out when the jury has reached a verdict and the judge will give them time to get back, but it's not going to be long. I think it's about 15, 20 minutes.

Speaker 3 So they can't go far, especially with New York City traffic. So Chloe, of course, everyone's talking about this.

Speaker 3 You talked about being out there on the sidewalk sandwiched amongst other media, but what is the world saying about this?

Speaker 3 I mean, we're talking about traditional media, your legacy media, but then there are also a lot of podcasters, a lot of bloggers, a lot of TikTokers and influencers who are also there covering this and dispatching this information.

Speaker 3 What's the chatter? It's split. I've seen it all.
I've seen people say that the government has not proven their case, that this is a witch hunt. Let Diddy live.

Speaker 3 You know, he had a freaky lifestyle, but a lot of people potentially in Hollywood, in politics, athletes might partake in the same sorts of things, right? So I've seen that.

Speaker 3 But then there's others who say this is a man that has abused his power and gotten away with it for years.

Speaker 3 He is a drug addict and an abuser of women, both physically and emotionally, and that this is a reckoning.

Speaker 3 I do think it's telling though, Blaine, that you haven't seen any big name celebrities come out in his defense outside of Kanye.

Speaker 3 So that kind of tells you something.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Last question to you, Chloe. I mean, as much as there are tea leaves to be read here, do you have any thoughts, best guesses on how long we may have to wait for a verdict here?

Speaker 3 I think it's going to come down before the fourth. I mean, we're talking about a lot for jurors to kind of have to parse through.

Speaker 3 We're not just talking about a, you know, simple one-count indictment here. This is, this is a lot of information for them to sift through here.

Speaker 3 I think they're going to be spending the majority of their time deliberating RICO, if I had to guess. And if they have about, you know, two days or two and a half days on that, I think it's enough.

Speaker 3 Okay. Well, Chloe Malas, our eyes and ears inside the courtroom at all times.
Thank you so much, and we will be watching with you. Thank you.
Here we go.

Speaker 1 Here we go.

Speaker 3 And when we come back, NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos is here to tell us what exactly the judge said to the jury and if he thinks the prosecution has made its case.

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Speaker 3 Welcome back, everyone, and we are joined by Danny Savalos, my friend. Good to have you here.

Speaker 4 Oh, thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 You know, Danny, you and I have talked about a lot of court cases over the years, but certainly none like this. The first question I want to ask you, what are jury instructions?

Speaker 4 Right. Jury instructions are quietly and arguably the most critical part of a trial.
And yet, Hollywood, all the movies and TV shows we've ever watched completely ignore the jury instruction process.

Speaker 4 And I think I know why. It's not sexy.
It's not exciting. It is incredibly boring, even for me as an attorney.

Speaker 4 The jury instructions are, at the end of the case, what the judge tells the jury about how to apply the law to the facts.

Speaker 4 The jury decides the facts and the judge tells them what the law is and they must follow the jury instructions.

Speaker 4 They take a long time for the judge to read and they're dry and sometimes boring, but they can be the difference between an acquittal and a conviction.

Speaker 3 So it kind of gives the jury a framework to work within as they go back to the deliberation room.

Speaker 4 Exactly right. So for example, they've heard all about these different facts and they have them all swimming around in their head or on their notepad.

Speaker 4 And then the judge will tell them essentially, if you are to convict Mr. Combs of, for example, transportation and ADA prostitution, well, here are the elements.
They have to show transportation.

Speaker 4 They have to show prostitution. It's a little more complicated than that, but those are the elements of those crimes, and they have to read out the elements for each of these crimes.

Speaker 4 And then a bunch of other things like credibility of witnesses. The jury actually gets instructions on how to evaluate the credibility of different witnesses and evidence.

Speaker 3 You know, I wanted to talk about that because in this trial, I mean, a lot of this hangs on witness testimony. Of course, testimony from Jane, Cassie Ventura.
What did the judge say about that?

Speaker 4 So what the judge gave the jury was what I would say is a pretty standard set of jury instructions for witness credibility.

Speaker 4 Typically, a jury is told, it's your job to determine the credibility of witnesses. There are no magic formulas.
You can consider all kinds of things and you can look at their demeanor.

Speaker 4 You can consider whether they had a bias. And that, by the way, is very important because often witnesses have motivations to testify, right?

Speaker 4 Certainly the defense explored the motivation of money, lawsuits, things like that. And they're instructed that they can consider things like that.

Speaker 4 So really the instruction is largely use your instincts.

Speaker 3 Sure. And I would imagine that that is what could lead to a lot of the disagreements back in the deliberation room, right?

Speaker 3 And so it comes down to each individual's kind of gut feeling when it comes to credibility.

Speaker 4 Absolutely.

Speaker 4 And I know this from talking to jurors and even, you know, as serving as an arbitration judge myself with a panel, after the case is over, invariably you find that no two people really saw the case exactly the same.

Speaker 4 You might have one juror who thinks, well, this witness was completely not credible. And then someone else says, well, I believe every word that witness says.

Speaker 4 Reasonable people disagree on whether or not people are credible, because here's the thing. We all bring our own life experiences.
We all bring our own unconscious biases.

Speaker 4 We bring all kinds of things to the table when we evaluate the evidence.

Speaker 4 And so it's no surprise that jurors often find themselves, at least at the beginning, in bitter disagreement about what they saw in that courtroom.

Speaker 3 And the jurors also got some specific instructions about their behavior, what they are allowed to do during this time.

Speaker 4 Exactly right. Yeah.
So, I mean, they're told, of course, not to talk to anyone about the case, not to do any background research. You know, a lot of what a judge does during a trial is manage jurors.

Speaker 4 These are a bunch of strangers who come together and they all behave differently and sometimes they don't always get along.

Speaker 4 So believe it or not, you know, it may sound like he's talking to school children, but there are several instructions that deal with juror behavior. You can't go investigate the case.

Speaker 4 You can't talk about it with friends.

Speaker 1 No Googling, right?

Speaker 4 No Googling, no investigating, none of that. But there are some important ones, you know, and really it's don't give up your beliefs just to get to a unanimous verdict.

Speaker 4 Now, that's one I look at with a somewhat skeptical eye because, you know, part of jury deliberation is haranguing and arguing with each other until you maybe change people's minds.

Speaker 4 And that happens all the time.

Speaker 4 So if they get to unanimous after a lot of argument, then presumably some people have changed their mind throughout the course of deliberations, which is the way the system is supposed to work.

Speaker 3 And I know that in there, the judge also expressed gratitude. I mean, this has been a big chunk of these people's lives for the past two months or so.

Speaker 4 Judges really are careful to be as respectful as they can be to jurors, while at the same time, you know, practically kidnapping them out of their lives for several weeks.

Speaker 4 So one of the things I had not heard before was the judge was actually inviting them to, that he would give them a tour of the courthouse.

Speaker 1 I thought that was really nice. And that was a nice touch.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I thought that was great. It'll be interesting to see who takes the judge up on that, considering the amount of time that they've spent there in that courthouse.
But

Speaker 3 in your opinion, did the prosecution meet its burden of proof here in this case?

Speaker 4 The prosecution has put in more than enough evidence for a jury to convict Combs, to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of all elements.

Speaker 4 But that doesn't mean that I don't think an acquittal is possible. I think an acquittal is possible.

Speaker 4 I think the jury may, at least some jurors might think this was a case that was overcharged and maybe much ado about nothing.

Speaker 4 But I still think when they get in that jury room and they look at the elements and the jury instructions, the government has given them enough to convict.

Speaker 3 Well, Danny, this is interesting. We actually have a question from one of our listeners who wants to know a little bit more about this process.

Speaker 5 Yeah, hi, this is Sandy from Atlanta, Georgia. My question regarding Diddy's trial, after this is over, can he still be charged for domestic abuse?

Speaker 5 I understand that's not a viable charge in the current case going on, but I'm curious if he can still be charged after this for domestic abuse.

Speaker 1 Thank you. So what do we think, Danny?

Speaker 3 What's the answer?

Speaker 4 Hi, Sandy. Thanks for listening.
So there are a couple different possibilities. If you're talking about the hotel beating video and Cassie Ventura, then the answer is probably not.

Speaker 4 That was about a decade ago. So probably any statute of limitations for assault in that state or in any state may have passed.

Speaker 4 But if we're talking about Jane and the alleged incident last summer in California, where she said he supposedly kicked down her doors and forced her into a freak off, well, if it was just last summer, then the statute of limitations for aggravated assault and some other crimes can be up to three years in California.

Speaker 4 So theoretically, it's possible. It's really a question of do state authorities, knowing what they know now, do they think this is a case they feel like bringing?

Speaker 4 Because as you mentioned earlier, you know, assault cases are really, he said, she said, they're about witness credibility.

Speaker 4 So, I mean, if the local prosecutors feel they have a case, then they can seek an indictment or charges against Diddy.

Speaker 4 But I'm not getting the sense that anyone's really excited to do that at this stage.

Speaker 3 And Danny, after this is over, I mean, is it possible that we see more civil cases? Yes.

Speaker 4 And again, the statute of limitations plays a role, but there have been some 80 civil cases filed against Diddy, and there really may be more.

Speaker 4 In fact, I would expect more to be filed after a verdict, because in the course of a criminal prosecution, prosecutors often dig up a bunch of evidence that plaintiffs' attorneys can use afterward in a civil case.

Speaker 4 A great example is the case of O.J. Simpson.
O.J. Simpson was acquitted.

Speaker 4 of murder, but thereafter he was sued and found liable for the the deaths of his victims and that really just highlights the difference in the burden of proof between beyond a reasonable doubt and just a mere preponderance of the evidence often expressed as loosely 51 percent okay danny savalo is breaking it down for us as always thank you so much and always a joy to talk to you thank you

Speaker 3 thanks so much for listening and we will be back with a new episode as soon as we get a verdict if you want to read the latest developments and analysis from inside the courtroom check out the nbc newsletter newsletter Diddy on Trial.

Speaker 3 Go to nbcnews.com/slash Diddy to find that newsletter. On Trial is produced by Franny Kelly with help from the Dateline True Crime Weekly team.

Speaker 3 Our senior producers are Allison Orr and Liz Brown Kurloff. Original music by Jesse McGenti.
Paul Ryan is executive producer, and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

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