Talking Dateline: Center of the Storm

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Speaker 3 Hi, everyone. I am Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline.
I am joined by the one and only Andrea Canning.

Speaker 6 Hi, Andrea. Hey, Blaine.

Speaker 4 So this episode is called Center of the Storm. If you haven't seen it, you can find it in the Dateline podcast feed.

Speaker 5 So make sure to go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come right back here.

Speaker 9 Here's a quick recap.

Speaker 7 Karen Reed was accused of killing her boyfriend, John O'Keefe, a Boston police officer, by drunkenly backing her car into him on a snowy January night in 2022.

Speaker 9 But Reed and her many supporters argued that's not true.

Speaker 5 They said that she was framed as part of a police cover-up and that O'Keefe was actually killed by his fellow officers at a house party.

Speaker 7 Andrea's latest episode on the case takes us through the retrial after Reed's first trial in 2024 ended in a hung jury.

Speaker 9 Andrea shares how the jury finally reached a verdict this time around, and she also talks to the former state trooper right at the heart of this case, the man Karen Reed has accused of coordinating the cover-up, Michael Proctor.

Speaker 4 For this Talking Dateline episode, Andrea's got two extra clips that didn't make it into the show.

Speaker 5 One from her interview with Proctor and a second clip from her interview with one of John O'Keefe's family members after the verdict.

Speaker 9 All right, Andrea, so let's talk Dateline.

Speaker 12 Let's do it.

Speaker 9 So I have to say that in my brief time at Dateline, I've gotten texted about a lot of stories, but there are none that people have reached out to me more more about than Karen Reed.

Speaker 5 I think people who aren't even interested in intra-crime or court cases are really, really fascinated by this story.

Speaker 3 So I'm very excited to talk to you about this today.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I know.

Speaker 17 It's been a wild one as far as just people, you know, wanting to give you their input.

Speaker 22 I don't think I've ever been on a story with this many opinions and this many armchair detectives.

Speaker 23 I posted just a clip on Instagram, on my personal Instagram, a video I took.

Speaker 17 I had so many comments and it was like one was for her, the next one was against, then the next one was for her, the next one was like, you know, it wasn't even, it wasn't even like lopsided of like, you know, one

Speaker 21 feeling or the other.

Speaker 27 It was, it was so divided, like split right down the middle, it felt like like politics almost.

Speaker 18 Like, yes, you know, like you're a Republican or you're a Democrat.

Speaker 30 You support Karen Reed or you don't support Karen Reed.

Speaker 19 Like, and people are digging in, right?

Speaker 18 And they, they want to tell you why they, you know, think she's innocent or who's bad in this story.

Speaker 12 You know, they all have their opinions about the players as well.

Speaker 10 So after all this time, we're talking about three years, two trials, finally there's a verdict in this case.

Speaker 5 And I mean, this was a tremendous news story when the verdict was reached.

Speaker 21 I'm curious, you were there.

Speaker 10 You were in Massachusetts when the jury came back.

Speaker 7 What was it like out there?

Speaker 17 First, what happened? It was so strange.

Speaker 30 They said that there was a verdict.

Speaker 35 And we're like, oh my gosh, there's a verdict.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 30 And then, nope, there's not a verdict.

Speaker 18 So the jury had knocked on the door saying verdict and then changed their minds.

Speaker 15 Oh, so I thought, okay, like, I guess this isn't happening today.

Speaker 29 And then, then, not too long after, we hear there is a verdict.

Speaker 24 Wow.

Speaker 21 We left this room that we were in.

Speaker 25 We went down the hall in the courthouse, sat down on the bench.

Speaker 31 And there were some people, some Karen Reed supporters who were in the courthouse, just like a few of them.

Speaker 21 And these people started crying in front of us, just the few people they were crying They were freaking out and then we decided to hightail it outside So we we went out the the front doors where everyone was waiting and and by the way in the courthouse you could it was like the courthouse was shaking It was so loud outside I mean when the when the verdict came in the cheers were so loud because there were so many people and they were all for Karen Reed outside and to be clear these are just random people.

Speaker 5 These we're not talking about family people with any stake in this.

Speaker 22 We're talking about just people just Karen Reed supporters, um you know dressed in pink and so we you know we went outside and then you could feel that energy of these people waiting for karen reed you know to to come outside and when she came out it was like they just erupted in cheers and even before that they were chanting things like, you know, lock up Michael Proctor.

Speaker 23 And they were, they were cheering, Auntie Bev has to go, the judge.

Speaker 37 Wow.

Speaker 17 So they, they were just, you know, everything was about Karen, Karen, Karen for them.

Speaker 18 And she she came out, they all cheered.

Speaker 19 And then she, she spoke into, there were many, many microphones.

Speaker 30 And it was so loud that the audio was picked up, of course, for the news, but you couldn't hear a word of what she was saying.

Speaker 32 You were standing there.

Speaker 40 It was just so loud.

Speaker 20 And I mean, with the exception maybe of like the OJ case, you know, I like, I, I don't, I can't really think of a case that has had this much attention, this many people show up,

Speaker 39 you know, get this heated about it, this divided, you know,

Speaker 32 it definitely had like shades of OJ, I think.

Speaker 5 That's what's so unbelievable about this, because yes, even as you're describing it, I was thinking OJ, that everyone had a feeling one way or the other.

Speaker 27 People were angry, people were upset, people were cheering or whatever.

Speaker 11 I mean, I think the other one is the other case that you're kind of in the middle of, right in the middle of covering, which is the Diddy trial, right?

Speaker 5 I mean, that one is everybody's watching, everybody has a thought, everybody's following along.

Speaker 13 And it's just interesting that we're in this time of cases, you know, criminal cases really being followed super closely like this

Speaker 33 and being so polarizing.

Speaker 19 Yeah, people are just seem to be getting more and more into these cases,

Speaker 36 you know, where they feel they can dig in or where they feel there's been, there's wrongdoing or maybe the person's famous in Diddy's case, you know, it could be different reasons, but definitely getting all in on these cases.

Speaker 11 The interesting thing about Karen Reed, though, I mean, Diddy obviously was a massive celebrity, is a massive celebrity.

Speaker 25 So people can understandably be interested in that.

Speaker 33 Karen Reed was not a celebrity before, but this case has kind of catapulted her to that status, right?

Speaker 38 I know, I know.

Speaker 32 It's, it's, it's like her name, you know, if,

Speaker 26 I mean, how many people at this point now have not heard the name Karen Reed,

Speaker 32 right? It's, it's everywhere.

Speaker 5 She's also received money from supporters. Yeah.

Speaker 20 I mean, she has made no bones about it.

Speaker 22 She needs money and she still needs money.

Speaker 17 So, you know, she's still paying off the legal bill.

Speaker 23 As far as I understand, she has a civil trial coming up.

Speaker 37 You know, yeah, we had

Speaker 30 a clip in the show about somebody who gave her like a gift certificate or whatever to go buy suits, you know, for like, yeah, yeah, a suit.

Speaker 37 Yeah.

Speaker 31 I actually had wondered that.

Speaker 17 She always seemed so like impeccably dressed.

Speaker 38 And I'm like, how is she affording all the, maybe that, maybe she already owned these clothes?

Speaker 16 Or, but then you find out that there's people supporting her in more ways than one.

Speaker 10 We also heard from a juror in this.

Speaker 11 NBC Boston's Sue O'Connell interviewed a juror to kind of hear her feelings about the public's reaction to the verdict.

Speaker 10 It's always interesting to hear from jurors. So let's listen to some of that sound.

Speaker 44 Talk to me about the reaction when the verdict was read and the crowd outside screamed and cheered.

Speaker 45 To be honest with you, I don't remember what happened in that courtroom at that moment because once I heard the people outside, I just closed my eyes and I started crying and I left the courtroom without looking to anyone.

Speaker 45 I did not expect to hear it because through the whole trial, we didn't hear anything on a jury room. We did not saw many people outside because we come from the back of the courthouse.

Speaker 45 So we would see someone walk away with a pink shirt here and there, but that was it.

Speaker 26 Never hear.

Speaker 45 chanting or comments or laughing or yellings or booing, nothing.

Speaker 45 And it's particular to me when I heard that people screaming out of happiness at the same time I was seeing Januke's family crying out of sadness. And that broke my heart.

Speaker 45 So that moment, I kind of understood how big this case was and how we're making someone happy and we're making a lot of other people sad too.

Speaker 45 So I don't remember what happened in Courtroom that moment. I just closed my eyes and cried.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I mean, that really sticks out.

Speaker 23 We're making some people happy and then we're making some people sad.

Speaker 25 Yeah.

Speaker 27 And that's really, she just boiled it down in that one sentence.

Speaker 33 Yeah.

Speaker 31 And that, that must have been just such a weird feeling to know that your decision,

Speaker 29 you know, set that off, that, you know, that wave of cheers and excitement and commotion outside.

Speaker 6 And that like it.

Speaker 11 Realizing the magnitude of the moment that it brought her to tears.

Speaker 25 I thought that was so interesting.

Speaker 10 Just kind of, there had to have been, obviously as a juror, you're kind of just focused on the facts.

Speaker 38 And that's the moment when all of the outside world comes rushing in so i could i could see how that would be emotional i guess after the break andrea has an extra clip from her interview with former trooper michael proctor

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Speaker 10 Let's talk about the trial itself. I'm curious, and I'm sure a lot of people are curious, for those who watched the first, the second, what are some of the big differences that kind of stood out?

Speaker 36 The second trial seemed to focus more on, to me, it seemed science, data.

Speaker 35 You know, it had a different prosecutor.

Speaker 21 He seemed to take a more analytical approach, I would say, you know, versus the first one.

Speaker 35 They definitely in the first trial

Speaker 28 were more in, leaned more into the conspiracy, you know, the, the framing, Michael Proctor testified.

Speaker 35 You know, they had him read the texts.

Speaker 39 But I mean, they still did that, though, in number two.

Speaker 21 Like they, Alan Jackson in his closing said, don't let Michael Proctor win.

Speaker 38 Michael Proctor, the former trooper, is a, is the boogeyman.

Speaker 29 You know, and so even though Michael Proctor was, did not testify and was not called by either, was not called called by the prosecution, was not called by the defense.

Speaker 25 This is the lead investigator.

Speaker 34 Right. Which is so rare, right?

Speaker 22 They still went after him hard in the closing.

Speaker 10 It shows how much he just hangs over this entire case.

Speaker 6 I am, we're going to get to your interview, by the way, with Michael Proctor.

Speaker 10 Before that, though, I mean, when we talk about differences between the first trial and the second, some of them were differences for journalists, right?

Speaker 3 I mean, for instance, Sue Simpson, our intrepid producer who was waiting in line to get in the last time, it was a different, kind of a different scenario this time around to get inside the courthouse.

Speaker 23 Yeah, this time they did lottery.

Speaker 40 So the first time Sue was in her lawn chair that she uses for soccer games, showing up at midnight and sitting there all night.

Speaker 12 And then this time they did the lottery.

Speaker 17 So she, she was lucky.

Speaker 23 She kept, in the beginning, she.

Speaker 31 was not winning the lottery and then she started she got on a roll she's winning um and she kept winning and um so she was able to keep getting into the courtroom um so she was able to observe very small courtroom.

Speaker 25 People are really packed in there. That's why they had to do a lottery because there were so many people and

Speaker 25 not just

Speaker 16 media, like, you know, old school reporters and whatnot.

Speaker 38 They also had the social media influencers like Turtle Boy, podcast people.

Speaker 14 And speaking of Turtle Boy, we didn't really hear from him as much this time around.

Speaker 6 Yeah, right. Yeah.

Speaker 23 I saw him.

Speaker 19 I was standing right near him when the verdict came in.

Speaker 23 He was very happy.

Speaker 10 Another thing that we noticed, of course, in the second trial is that Dateline entered the chat.

Speaker 6 They played some interview clips from Dateline, right?

Speaker 43 Dennis Murphy,

Speaker 29 before we switched correspondence,

Speaker 28 he did the interview with Karen.

Speaker 38 So that showed up in the courtroom, some clips from his interview.

Speaker 23 They were trying to show some inconsistencies with Karen and her interviews.

Speaker 42 And also, I think there probably was a little bit of, you know, look, she's telling her story everywhere but the courtroom.

Speaker 21 You know, she's telling every single media person, but not like in front of the jury.

Speaker 12 So I'm sure there was some of that as well, you know, with the prosecution trying to point that out.

Speaker 25 Was that always going to be the call that she didn't take the stand?

Speaker 23 I mean, you, you know, Blaine, that very often defendants don't take the stand, right?

Speaker 21 Because then, you know, they're in her case, her own words could be used against her from these interviews.

Speaker 39 You know, it's a gamble because they had their this theory, right?

Speaker 24 That she was framed and they were sticking to it.

Speaker 23 And they wanted the jury really, I think, to focus on that and not on her and, you know, getting up there on the stand and possibly, you know, who knows what could happen on cross-examination.

Speaker 18 It's always friendly from your own attorney.

Speaker 22 And then when you get on cross, things can get dicey for a defendant.

Speaker 14 Speaking of hearing from people, we heard from Michael Proctor.

Speaker 3 And I have to say that, you know, I watch these episodes cold, even though I know that we're working on them and everything, but it's kind of fun when doing the talking date lines to just watch it as a viewer.

Speaker 10 And when I saw him in the preview, I said, oh my God, we talked to Michael Proctor.

Speaker 3 Andrea got my, like, I mean, I really was watching this like, wow, I can't believe it.

Speaker 13 First, we talked to his wife, Elizabeth, though.

Speaker 10 That's who we heard from.

Speaker 29 Tell me what that was like.

Speaker 5 She was pretty candid in kind of how she reacted to finding out about those text messages.

Speaker 25 When she first found out about them, she didn't know what was in them exactly.

Speaker 21 He just said that they were embarrassing.

Speaker 19 And then she said it was, you know, started picking up steam a little bit where she's hearing this, she's hearing that.

Speaker 34 It started to get worrisome.

Speaker 20 And then I believe she didn't know what was actually in them until the trial.

Speaker 23 That's when she first heard the exact contents.

Speaker 5 Like when he read them on the stand. Yeah.

Speaker 30 Wow.

Speaker 23 And so she said that she did, you know, listen to that. Yeah.

Speaker 38 And so, you know, it's, it's tough for her because she's the wife, right?

Speaker 36 She hasn't done anything wrong and she's caught up in this firestorm and this you know such a charged case and he lost his job over this and he and he lost his job she was with him when they got the call it was pretty much immediate after the mistrial that they called and said that you're losing your job it's been very hard on her

Speaker 23 um she says she knows who her real friends are now you know that's a plus she you know the people who have stuck by them And he's trying to get his job back.

Speaker 20 I think it's going to be more difficult now, given the verdict.

Speaker 32 I mean, look, I don't know if he was ever going to get it back, but like, it just seems like maybe now it's even harder.

Speaker 3 It was a fascinating interview.

Speaker 10 We actually have some extra sound from Michael Proctor from your conversation with him.

Speaker 33 So let's listen to that.

Speaker 51 When people ask me about the case,

Speaker 51 you know, I tell them, don't even bother looking at the evidence, the evidence or the facts or the data. Look at it from a common sense perspective.

Speaker 51 The defense wants you to believe in their blogger, want you to believe that I coordinated this grand conspiracy with multiple units on the state police, Canton Police Department, Canton Fire, Canton paramedics, a dozen or so civilian witnesses, and a dog.

Speaker 51 And not one person has said over three years,

Speaker 51 this is what happened. I'm not going down for this.
Because

Speaker 51 the truth is, Karen Reed backed into John O'Keefe with her vehicle. There's no conspiracy.

Speaker 27 How does the future look for Michael Proctor?

Speaker 51 Time will tell.

Speaker 51 Like I said, we're

Speaker 51 appealing my wrongful termination.

Speaker 51 I still want to be a trooper. I still know that I can do some good on the state police.

Speaker 51 So we're fighting. And that's step one.
That's the number one thing for me right now.

Speaker 5 I mean, I'm really glad that we were able to hear his perspective on all this.

Speaker 37 I agree.

Speaker 15 And, you know, it's always

Speaker 24 at Dateline, we just want everybody's side.

Speaker 16 It doesn't mean we're on anyone's side.

Speaker 31 We want to hear your side.

Speaker 18 And, you know, people are, why'd you put him on there?

Speaker 32 you know you get all kinds of right messages on social media yeah like all kinds of you know critics of an interview and and it it really is that's dateline's way we always will be that way and that's what i love about our show is that you know we don't just do one side of course it's fair journalism that's that's what it's called right i mean yeah when we get back andrea is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from her latest interview with one of john o'keef's relatives

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Speaker 37 It's a very complex case.

Speaker 23 And, you know, we don't want to forget John O'Keefe in the center of it.

Speaker 21 Absolutely. You know, this was a man who gave his life to public service.
This is a man who, when his sister and brother-in-law died, he stepped up.

Speaker 21 He moved out of the city to raise his niece and nephew.

Speaker 41 You know, this is a man who had a lot of good qualities that his life was cut short.

Speaker 10 And I think something that you did a great job of in this episode is reminding the viewer of who he was, right?

Speaker 33 And not letting him get lost because that's something that his family member, Beth, said she felt and the family felt happened in all of this.

Speaker 10 There was so much,

Speaker 5 you know, talk about everyone, almost but John O'Keefe himself.

Speaker 10 Let's talk about Beth for a second. You did a second interview with Beth and you'd already spoken with her for the first episode, but this one was different because it was right after the verdict.

Speaker 10 I wonder if you can just kind of set the scene.

Speaker 5 How was she holding up?

Speaker 25 It was very raw at that moment.

Speaker 24 Tears, you know, she came over to where we were, you know, to interview and my heart just went out to her.

Speaker 38 And

Speaker 36 that's not me, again, taking sides of anyone, but just feeling sympathy for someone who's in pain

Speaker 35 at that moment, you know, because Beth and her family believe what they believe.

Speaker 41 And so for them, this is a loss, right?

Speaker 20 This, this didn't go the way they wanted.

Speaker 50 And they feel like just some serious injustice.

Speaker 29 So to talk to somebody that quickly after a verdict

Speaker 17 that went so wrong for them was, it was painful.

Speaker 25 Of course.

Speaker 10 I could imagine.

Speaker 6 We have a little, an extra clip

Speaker 35 from your interview with her.

Speaker 14 Let's take a listen to that and then talk about it.

Speaker 34 What's going through your body as you hear?

Speaker 21 those words being read in the courtroom.

Speaker 53 You know, I think it's, I don't, you know, honestly,

Speaker 38 I don't even know what happened at that moment.

Speaker 53 You know, I wasn't in court. I was down the street watching.
And

Speaker 53 I think it was just a kind of a numb sensation of,

Speaker 53 you know,

Speaker 6 how,

Speaker 53 you know, what made them come to this conclusion

Speaker 53 where it's so different than what we know.

Speaker 31 This has had such a domino effect, these accusations.

Speaker 53 It did, you know, it's it's impacted more than just,

Speaker 53 you know, my family. It's impacted other families.
It's impacted our friends. You know, lives have changed

Speaker 53 not for the better because of this situation and because of the actions that one person took. on January 29th, 2022.

Speaker 19 Yeah, I mean, to the O'Keefe family and extended family, there's no doubt in their minds that Karen Reed hit John O'Keefe.

Speaker 26 Just like on the other side of this, there's zero doubt in Karen Reed's supporters' minds that she did not hit John O'Keefe.

Speaker 6 Right.

Speaker 21 So we're just seeing a case through very different lenses from all these different people.

Speaker 15 And there's, there's even shades, right?

Speaker 31 It's not even just she hit him or she didn't hit him.

Speaker 41 There's like,

Speaker 18 you know, there's people like in the middle, too, who can't really make heads or tails of this.

Speaker 11 So it's a tricky one. It's a tricky, tricky.

Speaker 5 It is a fascinating story. It's a fascinating case, one that has really just gripped everyone across the country.

Speaker 33 And you did a great job of covering it and bringing us this episode. So thank you, Andrea.

Speaker 27 Thanks, Blaine.

Speaker 6 Great to talk Dateline with you.

Speaker 11 And that's it for Talking Dateline this week.

Speaker 4 Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC.

Speaker 5 Plus, there's an all-new season of Josh Mankowitz's podcast, Missing in America, out now.

Speaker 8 That series takes a deep dive into the country's most perplexing, unsolved missing persons cases.

Speaker 4 Make sure to catch a new episode every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, we'll see you on Fridays on Dateline on NBC.

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