The Adelson children take the stand. A missing woman's husband is arrested. And a deep dive on DNA.

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Speaker 2 How are you? Good. Last week of summer, though.
Yes. I mean, not technically, but effectively.

Speaker 3 It's time for Dateline's morning meeting. Our editorial team is discussing breaking crime news.

Speaker 2 He had been following her, and she was completely unaware. They might still be in Boadir and tomorrow she has a hearing on her other case.

Speaker 2 They waited months before they realized she was really missing.

Speaker 3 Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Blaine Alexander, filling in today for Andrea Canning.
It's August 28th, and here's what's on our docket.

Speaker 3 In Northern California, after giving a bizarre press conference about his missing wife, her husband is arrested for her murder.

Speaker 6 It's the first time in Chester County history they're trying to get someone for a murder charge with no body.

Speaker 3 In Dateline Roundup, the kayaker who faked his own death faces sentencing, and rap star Cardi B appears in a Los Angeles courtroom as a civil defendant.

Speaker 3 We'll bring you the latest on what she had to say in her own defense.

Speaker 7 She really doubled down on it being just a verbal altercation, nothing physical.

Speaker 3 Plus, you've seen investigators asking suspects for DNA samples and dateline episodes. A former prosecutor breaks down why this is often detectives' best tool, but it's not always foolproof.

Speaker 8 DNA cannot be the only thing you're walking into the courtroom with.

Speaker 3 But before all of that, at the murder trial of Florida grandmother Donna Adelson, one of the most anticipated witnesses takes the stand, her oldest son.

Speaker 3 Nearly two years after she was arrested, Donna Adelson's trial is now in its second week.

Speaker 3 The 75-year-old grandmother is charged with helping to orchestrate the 2014 killing of her daughter Wendy's ex-husband, FSU professor Dan Markell.

Speaker 3 Markell was shot in the head by two hitmen in his driveway, and four people have already been convicted for their roles in the crime, including Donna's son Charlie.

Speaker 3 Donna Adelson has pleaded not guilty to charges of first-degree murder, conspiracy, and solicitation.

Speaker 3 In its opening statement, the prosecution laid out what they said was Donna's motive to get Dan Markell out of the way so that Wendy could move their children closer to her parents.

Speaker 9 The defendant said that she would never, never,

Speaker 9 never

Speaker 9 give up and never stop fighting for Wendy and the boys to be relocated to Miami.

Speaker 9 And she never did.

Speaker 3 The defense then countered that there is no direct proof that Donna Adelson was ever involved.

Speaker 11 This case is really

Speaker 11 a lot about theory and motive and not evidence.

Speaker 3 This week, as testimony ramped up, the dynamics of the Adelson family took center stage. Daughter Wendy and Rob, the Adelson son, who is estranged from the family, both took the stand.

Speaker 3 Dateline producer Brad Davis was in the courtroom as their dramatic testimony unfolded and is here now to break down everything that happened in that testimony. Brad, thanks so much for joining us.

Speaker 13 Oh, glad to be here.

Speaker 3 This is certainly a lot to talk about. So let's jump right in.
Okay. So Wendy took the stand first.
Now, what's notable about this, this is her fourth time testifying in six years.

Speaker 3 When we heard her on the stand, I mean, what was her demeanor like? What were some of the things that she said?

Speaker 12 Yeah, I mean, she's very poised on the stand and she's a lawyer herself.

Speaker 17 So she really knows what to say and how to be careful when she speaks.

Speaker 16 And the prosecution explained to the jury that she was testifying under a state subpoena and that she she had a form of what's called use immunity where what she said on the stand could not be used against her later in a court of law but that doesn't mean that she can't be later prosecuted related to this case the prosecution wanted her to help paint a picture of her family and they wanted to show that donna adelson was deeply involved in the divorce proceedings you know all the motions going back and forth and they also wanted to show right how much donna apparently disliked dan yeah they um went through all of these documents, all these emails, all these texts from Donna to Wendy, and you get a lot of really nasty comments that Donna makes about Dan Markell, her former son-in-law, at that point.

Speaker 9 Did your mom ever call Dan Markell any disparaging names around this time frame? She did.

Speaker 9 Okay, including piece of shit?

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 20 Asshole?

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 9 A narcissist? Yes. A bully?

Speaker 14 Yes.

Speaker 9 A bastard?

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 3 So certainly the prosecution painted one picture of everything, but when it came time for cross-examination, how did Donna's defense team try to counter the prosecution's case here?

Speaker 18 Yeah, the defense portrays Donna as, you know, a very loving mother and a very loving mother-in-law, that she really had no animus. You know, she would do things for Dan.

Speaker 18 She would help with the kids, help him out with the kids, even as Wendy and Dan were, you know, were divorced.

Speaker 11 Testified that your mother hated Danny at the time that he was killed. But the week before he died, your mother was babysitting for Danny, wasn't she?

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 11 And in fact, she actually made him banana bread, specifically the way he liked it, right? It was his favorite. Without nuts, but with chocolate chips.

Speaker 9 That's right.

Speaker 3 The next witness in all of this was someone that a lot of people have been waiting to hear from for quite a long time.

Speaker 3 And that's the third Adelson sibling, Rob. Now, he has never testified at any of the earlier trials.
So this is really the first time we're hearing from him.

Speaker 3 But before we get to his testimony, Brad, just kind of tell us a little bit about Rob.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 16 Rob Edelson is the oldest of the three Edelson kids.

Speaker 17 He is an ENT, an ear, nose, and throat doctor, and he lives up in New York.

Speaker 16 He does not live anywhere near Florida where the Adelsons have lived.

Speaker 15 You could tell he was very nervous on the stand.

Speaker 17 He tried to look really not at Donna, not at anyone in the courtroom. I mean, he was very careful to just focus on the prosecutor when he was talking.

Speaker 3 I'm curious, what was the mood in the courtroom while he was testifying?

Speaker 19 Yeah, I mean, when Rob was testifying, you could sort of hear a pen drop because this is someone that we have never heard from in this case, you know, someone who has really been very reluctant to speak to media or anything.

Speaker 17 And we're finally hearing him.

Speaker 18 And the jury, you know, seemed very wrapped with attention as he was speaking.

Speaker 3 Let's talk about the picture that Rob painted of the Adelson household growing up.

Speaker 12 Yeah, he talks about his family

Speaker 15 that basically his mom, Donna, was really in control of a lot of things and she would get involved in her kids' lives to an extent that, you know, was maybe, to him, unhealthy at times.

Speaker 9 Based on your personal observations throughout your life of your parents and of your siblings, who's the leader in the family? Who tends to run the show?

Speaker 20 I think my mom.

Speaker 9 Would you describe Donna Adelson's personality as being more controlling or more laid back?

Speaker 20 I think more on the controlling side.

Speaker 15 Rob said Charlie to him is sort of the middle child who's sort of the ne'er-do-well.

Speaker 18 Wendy is the youngest. You know, she's the one that Donna has to take care of and make sure she's all okay.

Speaker 3 And of course, the prosecution asked Rob about Donna's relationship with Dan Markell. What did Rob have to say about the interaction between those two?

Speaker 12 On the stand, Rob said initially, it seemed like everything, that Donna had no issues with Dan.

Speaker 17 But as the divorce began and got underway, she got really angry with Dan.

Speaker 9 And how did Donna Adelson feel about Dan Markell in 2014?

Speaker 20 I mean, she hated him.

Speaker 3 And Rob was also asked about his interactions with his mother surrounding Dan Markell's death. He said that she was the one who essentially broke the news to him.

Speaker 13 Yeah, that's right. I mean, he said he got a call from her

Speaker 13 right when it happened, and he was in shock. He couldn't believe what had happened.

Speaker 17 But he said his mother was not that emotional on the the phone speaking with him.

Speaker 20 She had said, you know, I don't care. It doesn't concern me.

Speaker 9 Was that out of character for her to not be curious and not be asking some questions?

Speaker 20 Yeah, I mean, it was an unsolved murder of, you know, my former brother-in-law, like someone that we all know very well. I mean, if it was like some neighborhood gossip, people would be interested.

Speaker 20 This was like national

Speaker 20 interest,

Speaker 20 and nobody had any curiosity about, you know, who did this to Danny.

Speaker 3 And Brad, this is certainly interesting.

Speaker 3 There was one portion in in there where Rob testified that Donna told him not to talk to law enforcement yeah Rob said that the FBI came to talk with him up in New York and he obliged and told them what he could and then he got a call from his mother did you let her know that you'd already you already had talked to law enforcement I said I already did what did she say to that she said oh well you don't know anything anyway you don't you don't know anything anyway correct and then the prosecution moved forward a bit to May of 2016 that's when the two hitmen were arrested.

Speaker 3 This was a very compelling piece of testimony. Brad, what did Rob have to say about what happened next?

Speaker 4 Yeah, he said that he was truly shocked when he heard that they were arrested and made.

Speaker 19 And so he was like waiting for his parents to call him to say, you know, these arrests.

Speaker 15 And he didn't hear from them, but he knew he was going to talk to them two days later because his anniversary was coming up.

Speaker 21 So his mother did call and they talked about, you know, little things, small talk, and they never brought up these arrests.

Speaker 20 So I finally approached the topic and said, you know, they found the guy, they arrested someone who killed Danny.

Speaker 20 You know, there's no response. And I said it, you know, at least two or three times.
And her response was, you know, I've got to go.

Speaker 9 And then did she hang up the phone after that?

Speaker 20 Yes.

Speaker 9 Other than, you know, her reaching out for happy birthdays, happy anniversaries, that kind of thing, was that the last conversation you had with her?

Speaker 20 That was the last time I spoke to her.

Speaker 9 Okay. That's all.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 We know that the prosecution is continuing to present their case. And of course, we will will keep having you back on, Brad, to break down every twist and turn that comes out of the courtroom.

Speaker 3 Thank you so much.

Speaker 13 Glad to be here. Thank you.

Speaker 3 Coming up, after a mother of four disappeared in Reading, California, her sisters urged police to take a closer look at her husband. Now, there's been an arrest in the case.

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Speaker 3 In March, Tyler McCain stood in front of reporters at the Shasta County Sheriff's Office and talked about his wife, Nikki. She'd been missing for almost a year.

Speaker 24 We miss you.

Speaker 24 I don't really know what to say.

Speaker 24 I haven't been in the public eyes, and I'm just here in support. So anything that I can do, I want to do that.

Speaker 3 The people in that room knew that there was something Tyler wasn't saying.

Speaker 3 Before Nikki disappeared, her husband, Tyler, had been indicted on four counts of domestic violence for allegedly assaulting her.

Speaker 3 Charges that had been dropped by the prosecutor after Nikki vanished, leading to protests outside of the county courthouse.

Speaker 7 Justice for Nikki is what we're looking for, and that's what we shall receive.

Speaker 3 Nikki's three sisters took it upon themselves to keep attention on her case, including by talking to Dateline last summer for our online series, Missing in America.

Speaker 25 I know that there are a lot of people who know something, but maybe they just might be afraid to say something.

Speaker 3 And then, late last week, the family finally got some answers even without finding nikki's body the shasta county da charged tyler mccain with his wife's murder action news now reporter blake mayfield has been following this case closely he joins us now to tell us how prosecutors got to an indictment here and what they're revealing to the public about this investigation blake thank you so much for joining us we're so glad to have you today yeah thank you for having me i want to start by just talking about who nikki was our digital team did a really great interview with her sisters but tell us a little bit about what her life was like in Reading.

Speaker 6 She was born and raised in Reading, Reading Life, if you will.

Speaker 6 Homemaker, had four kids, 39 years old when she disappeared.

Speaker 3 Now, according to her sisters and the DA's account of the county's investigation, the marriage started getting violent around 2020. Tyler was arrested for domestic violence in 2023.

Speaker 3 So, Blake, what do we know about that incident?

Speaker 6 In the sheriff's complaint, the reporting officer said that when he met Nikki at Mercy Hospital, she had two black eyes and other injuries to her head and face.

Speaker 6 She had told the officer that Tyler had come home extremely agitated. It was not making any sense.

Speaker 6 I mean, he held her down, taped her ankles and wrists together, put tape over her mouth, proceeded to B-rate and hit her for three hours after that.

Speaker 14 Three hours?

Speaker 6 Pretty, pretty rough, pretty violent stuff.

Speaker 6 Nikki had told the officer there at Mercy that Tyler had done this type of thing before, but it had never been that bad, never to that extent. Tyler told the officer he didn't strike Nikki in any way.

Speaker 6 He told told the officer that he thought she got in a fight with another woman and that's why she had the marks and the black eyes and all that um he pleaded not guilty to the felony charges and he was scheduled to go to court on june 3rd and that's actually just a little over two weeks after nikki disappeared wow those are I mean, we just need to pause and say those are some heavy allegations against Tyler that she made.

Speaker 3 Her sisters told us that Tyler had been asking Nikki to recant some of those allegations against him.

Speaker 10 She told us she was very upset because what he did was ambushed her with his attorney and tried to get her to tell his attorney that none of that happened and she made it up.

Speaker 3 The press release that the Shasta County DA put out last week references these alleged efforts by Tyler, saying,

Speaker 3 Detectives also determined that Tyler McCain made multiple attempts to dissuade Nikki from testifying in connection with a domestic violence incident. What do we know about that?

Speaker 3 I mean, is there any evidence?

Speaker 6 I know that she did not ask the county to drop the charges against Tyler.

Speaker 3 And Dayline has reached out to both Tyler McCain and his attorney. We've not yet heard back from either of them.
But Blake, what do we know about the investigation into Nikki's disappearance?

Speaker 6 Yeah, until last week, investigators and the district attorney's office never said publicly that they suspected foul play or that Tyler was even an official suspect.

Speaker 6 They did appear to have him on their radar from the get-go. The couple's house was searched just a couple of days after she went missing.

Speaker 6 Investigators found a firearm, a large capacity magazine, ammunition.

Speaker 6 There was a protective order against him related to prior felony domestic violence charges to where he wasn't supposed to have anything like a large capacity magazine. So he got a charge for that one.

Speaker 6 The week after that, he forged Nikki's signature to cash an IRS refund check. And that's all we knew about the investigation.

Speaker 3 Was there anything that they found that pointed to possible violence toward Nikki? Any evidence to that effect?

Speaker 6 Yes, this is all new information from the DA's office. We had no idea of any of these details until last week.
Nikki's Chevy Avalanche was found about a week after she was last heard from.

Speaker 6 And authorities say they smell an overwhelming odor of decomposition. The truck bed had a white sheet with bloodstains on it.

Speaker 6 Investigators did confirm that the blood on the sheet was Nikki's, and they confirmed the primary source of the rest of the DNA in that car was indeed Tyler's.

Speaker 6 So that was a part of the investigation as early as May of last year.

Speaker 6 In April of this year, Tyler was pulled over for throwing things out of the window of his truck.

Speaker 6 And one of the things that authorities found was actually Nikki's driver's license that had been partially burned.

Speaker 3 There's one more thing here, Blake, that was kind of buried in the DA's press release, but it is a very striking and notable detail.

Speaker 3 Tyler, according to the DA's office, actually admitted to killing Nikki at some point.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah, that's what she said in her press conference. She said that a confidential informant told detectives that Tyler admitted to killing Nikki.
So that could have been over a year ago.

Speaker 6 It could have been three months ago. It could have been in March.

Speaker 3 But just to kind of punctuate it, I mean, that is a major update.

Speaker 6 Very, very much so. It's something I didn't expect to hear.

Speaker 3 I'm curious, Blake, during her press conference, did she at all mention or address this kind of growing public frustration with just how long it's taken to bring an indictment in this case?

Speaker 6 DA Stephanie Bridgie said this last week. It's the first time in Chester County history they're trying to get someone for a murder charge with no body.

Speaker 6 The DA pointed out that her office and law enforcement partners have been gathering evidence since May of last year.

Speaker 6 She is going to bring back all the charges she dismissed last July against Tyler now.

Speaker 26 It may have appeared that McCain had gotten away with domestic violence charges, and I understand your frustration at that time.

Speaker 26 But as you can see, we filed an enhancement to the murder charge for murder with intent to prevent testimony.

Speaker 26 It is our belief that Tyler McCain murdered his wife, Nikki McCain, to prevent her from testifying in the domestic violence case.

Speaker 6 Yeah, so this enhancement actually changes the sentence that he'd be facing significantly.

Speaker 6 He's now looking at life without parole, and he also cannot get out on bail while waiting for his trial to start.

Speaker 3 He entered a plea of not guilty at his arraignment. You were there in the courtroom that day.
What was the mood like there? What was Tyler's demeanor when he entered that not guilty plea?

Speaker 6 Full courtroom. You know what's going to be.
It's one of the most high-profile cases, not only in Shasta County, but it feels like, I mean, I'm talking to Dateline.

Speaker 6 Truthfully, I didn't really get a good look at him. His attorney did a really good job of standing in front of him.

Speaker 3 Well, Blake, it is a very disturbing case. Thank you so much for joining us to break it all down.

Speaker 6 And I appreciate you guys having me on.

Speaker 3 If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, you can always call the National Domestic Violence Hotline. That number is 1-800-799-7233.

Speaker 3 Or visit the website thehotline.org for more resources. Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup.
Rapper Cardi B is on civil trial in California for an alleged assault.

Speaker 3 And what happened to the Wisconsin man who faked his own death to start a new life in Europe?

Speaker 14 We've got an update.

Speaker 3 Plus, when investigators collect suspects' DNA, we'll tell you what you need to know.

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Speaker 3 Hi, everyone. Welcome back.
Joining us this week for our roundup is Dateline digital producer Veronica Mazeka.

Speaker 4 Veronica, hi. Hi, Blaine.

Speaker 3 Veronica, thanks so much for joining us today. We certainly have a lot to break down.

Speaker 3 So, first to start, we're heading to Wisconsin for an update in the case of Ryan Borgwort, the married father of three, who authorities say faked his own death last year by pretending to drown while kayaking in a local lake.

Speaker 3 Now, after searching the lake for weeks, police found Borgwart alive and well in Eastern Europe, where they say that he went to meet a woman that he met online.

Speaker 3 This is really quite a twisted case, Veronica. So what's the latest here?

Speaker 7 Yeah, so Borgwart voluntarily returned to the U.S. last December.
He was taken into custody and then he was charged with obstructing an officer.

Speaker 7 The allegation is that once police discovered Borgwort was alive and made contact with him, they say he deliberately misled them about his location by using a VPN while browsing the internet, thereby thereby obstructing their investigation.

Speaker 7 Borgwort was finally sentenced on Tuesday after pleading guilty to that charge.

Speaker 3 And what kind of a sentence did he receive?

Speaker 7 The judge sentenced Borgwort to 89 days in county jail, one day for each of the days Borgwart's whereabouts were unknown by law enforcement.

Speaker 3 89 days in jail, so that's the legal penalty. I'm curious, Veronica, what became of his marriage? What happened with his family that he deceived all this time?

Speaker 7 So when he returned to the U.S., his wife did file for divorce.

Speaker 3 For our next story, let's move out to California, where we switch gears and we focus on a civil trial instead of a criminal one.

Speaker 3 And it involves a name that many of us are familiar with: rapper Cardi B,

Speaker 3 whose legal name is Bella Khalees Almanzar. She's on trial this week for allegedly assaulting a female security guard inside a Beverly Hills medical building in 2018.

Speaker 3 So, what is the plaintiff saying happened here?

Speaker 7 So, the plaintiff, Imani Ellis, took the stand Monday. She claimed that she was conducting routine rounds as a security guard when she saw Cardi B exit an elevator outside of an obstetrician's office.

Speaker 7 She testified that she said, wow, that's Cardi B, after which she alleges Cardi B got in her face and accused her of spreading the news of the rapper's pregnancy, which was a secret at the time, via her phone.

Speaker 7 She says that Cardi B yelled obscenities at her, cut her cheek with her fingernail, and then spit on her.

Speaker 3 Now, Cardi's lawyer is actually presenting a completely different story in his opening, though, right?

Speaker 7 Yes. So Cardi B's lawyer, Peter Anderson, said that the rapper caught Ellis filming and photographing her.
He does admit that his client used strong language and yelled, but never touched Ellis.

Speaker 3 You know, I think a lot of us are wondering, what does Cardi B have to say about all of this? Veronica, we actually heard from her on Tuesday.

Speaker 7 Yeah, so she really doubled down on it being just a verbal altercation, nothing physical.

Speaker 33 When you say there was a verbal altercation...

Speaker 34 Yes.

Speaker 33 Do you know what the word altercation means?

Speaker 34 Like a conflict.

Speaker 24 Like a fight, right?

Speaker 34 It was, yeah, it was like a verbal fight, but it didn't get physical at all.

Speaker 33 Am I, when I'm talking to you now, are we having a verbal altercation?

Speaker 34 We have him, we'll say, a debate.

Speaker 3 A lot of people know Cardi B for her personality. It sounds like it was coming out on the stand there, too.

Speaker 3 And finally, we're diving into some updates in the case of Ghelane Maxwell, convicted sex trafficker and former girlfriend of also convicted sex trafficker and disgraced New York financier Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 3 As I'm sure many of our listeners will remember, last month, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche sat down with Maxwell in a rather unprecedented interview and questioned her about Epstein's crimes as well as her own.

Speaker 3 And last week, the DOJ released the audio and transcripts of that two-day interview. So, Veronica, a lot of people, of course, have been talking about this.

Speaker 3 What is the key takeaway that you've garnered from the release of this audio?

Speaker 7 So as we know, there's been a lot of buzz about a possible black book or client list that allegedly has the names of powerful individuals that Epstein trafficked young girls to.

Speaker 7 But according to Maxwell, that list doesn't actually exist.

Speaker 3 And Ghelaine Maxwell also answered some questions about her own involvement.

Speaker 35 There's a ton of writing and a ton of, I guess, testimony as well, but also public reporting about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort that you were part of, that he was a part of, and others to try to find more and more masuses.

Speaker 35 Is that true and what role did you have in the

Speaker 36 that is partially true. Okay.

Speaker 36 So it is true that I found masseuses and in my effort to find them I would go to massage spas like

Speaker 36 legitimate spas.

Speaker 3 And one of Epstein and Maxwell's most vocal accusers was a woman named Virginia Roberts Juffray.

Speaker 3 She claims to have been recruited by Maxwell at President Trump's spa in Mar-a-Lago more than two decades ago.

Speaker 3 Juffre died by suicide earlier this year, and now her family had a very strong reaction to the release of those tapes. Veronica, what did they have to say about this?

Speaker 7 Yeah, so they said that they were, quote, outraged by the release of the audio and transcripts, as it gives Maxwell a, quote, platform to rewrite history.

Speaker 7 They said that the transcripts directly contradict the conviction Maxwell got for child sex trafficking.

Speaker 3 It had to have just been difficult for them to hear this and almost kind of relive all of this so soon after her death.

Speaker 3 And there is more news, Veronica, about Juffrey this week as well.

Speaker 7 That's right. We learned that she was writing a memoir at the time of her death, and it will be released posthumously in October.
It's called Nobody's Girl.

Speaker 3 I'm sure a lot of people will be very interested to read that book. All right, Veronica, thank you so much for your expertise as always.
We appreciate you.

Speaker 7 Thank you.

Speaker 3 You've seen it time and again on Dateline, the moment when law enforcement asks someone to give a sample of their DNA.

Speaker 3 Matching that sample to DNA left at the crime scene can make or break an investigation. But DNA isn't always collected at the police station.
Take the recent case of Tony Hayes.

Speaker 3 He was accused and acquitted of a 33-year-old double murder after investigators took a sample of his DNA from a pin that he used while at a traffic stop, which was a point of contention during his trial.

Speaker 3 It made us here at Dateline want to find out more about the collection of DNA, how it works, what the process looks like, when it's allowed, and just any other nuances when it comes to this topic.

Speaker 3 So joining us now is former prosecutor Melba Pearson. She's the chair of the American Bar Association's Criminal Justice Section.
Melba, thanks so much for joining us today. It's great to have you.

Speaker 8 Thank you so much for having me. Really looking forward to the discussion.

Speaker 3 Me too. So Baba, let's talk about actually getting DNA from a potential suspect.
Usually we talk about gathering DNA through a cheek swab or hair. Is there specific training for that?

Speaker 8 Yeah, so officers definitely have that as part of their training. They know the basics on how to collect DNA, right? So that's important to note.

Speaker 8 But in terms of how DNA can be obtained, first off, consent.

Speaker 8 So the police officer or the detective asks you, hi, can I have a sample of your DNA? We're trying to eliminate people in this particular investigation. And you can say yes or no.

Speaker 8 If you say yes, moves forward. If you say no, now it's up to the detective to go and get a warrant.

Speaker 8 Now, other ways that DNA could be obtained, if you are convicted of a crime, and it varies by state, but as a general premise, you will be swabbed for your DNA, even if you're not going to prison.

Speaker 8 Also, the way that has been very interesting in terms of a lot of discussion is the discarded DNA. Because once you throw something out, the courts have very clearly said it's no longer yours.

Speaker 8 So, if you take a sip from a water bottle and then you chuck it in the garbage, law enforcement can come right behind you, pick up that bottle, bag it, the whole thing, take it to the lab, have it tested, and then that could be used as a sample against maybe an existing sample in a particular case.

Speaker 8 And then, the last way that DNA can come into play is the whole idea of genetic genealogy.

Speaker 8 And so you upload your DNA sample to 23andMe, ancestry.com, whatever the case may be. Law enforcement may be able to get access to that database through the use of a warrant.

Speaker 8 And if there's a match, then what they're looking at is this may be someone who is related to the target of this investigation. So let's try to figure out, is this a cousin? Is this a brother?

Speaker 8 Is this a sister? And you backtrack from there.

Speaker 3 So, Melba, before we go any further, let's just kind of level set here because I do think that it's easy to look at, you know, cases where DNA is involved and just say, okay, great, we got DNA, it's a match, boom, the case is solved, this person's going to prison, but it's not always that cut and dry.

Speaker 8 Yes, absolutely. So there's so many different permutations in terms of how this can go, right? There's a scenario where it could be a mixture.

Speaker 8 So you can't tell conclusively, you know, it might be two or three different

Speaker 8 people that are involved in that one sample. We We call those contributors.
It could be more than one contributor to that particular sample.

Speaker 8 That doesn't exactly necessarily give you clarity on who the person is that committed the crime. So there's that.
Also, you can have DNA, and it can be from a consensual encounter.

Speaker 8 So, for instance, we've seen many times in so many cases, especially involving a sexual assault, where the person who might be the main suspect, their DNA is found on the victim.

Speaker 8 And they're like, listen, we had a consensual encounter earlier that day, an hour before. And when I left the person, they were fine.
They were still alive. How do you get around that argument, right?

Speaker 8 So while DNA is great in terms of identification purposes, DNA cannot be the only thing you're walking into the courtroom with.

Speaker 3 This is such a fascinating discussion. We could go on and on.
Melba Pearson, chair of ABA's criminal justice section, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 8 Thank you for having me, Blaine.

Speaker 3 And that's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. To get ad-free listening for all of our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium.

Speaker 3 Coming up this Friday on Dateline, we have a classic Andrea Canning episode.

Speaker 3 When young mother Kelsey Bareth went missing on Thanksgiving Day 2018, investigators relied on a witness to piece together the mystery of her disappearance.

Speaker 18 Was there any blood on the TV? Do you remember?

Speaker 5 Yeah, there was blood on the TV.

Speaker 3 There was blood on the chairs. Is there any blood on the table?

Speaker 3 But was she just a witness or something more?

Speaker 3 Watch Devil's Bargain this Friday at 9-8 Central. And just a reminder before you go, the first of its kind Dateline live event is happening Sunday, September 28th in Nashville.

Speaker 3 I'll be there along with Josh, Keith, Andrea, Dennis, and Lester, and we would love for you to join us. There will be on-stage panels, audience QAs, and a VIP reception.

Speaker 3 Tickets are on sale now at datelinenbc.com/slash event. You can also find a link in the description of this episode.
We'd love to see you there. Thanks so much for listening.

Speaker 3 Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey.
Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kuriloff.

Speaker 3 Production and fact-checking help by Terry Dickerson and Georgina DiNardo. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer.
Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty.

Speaker 3 Ryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

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