After the Dance

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Speaker 7 Tonight, on dateline.

Speaker 8 She was just going to a Valentine's dance in high school. It was after midnight.
The front doors just pounding. Pound, pound, pound, pound, pound.
He had blood all over his shirt, just screaming.

Speaker 8 They've got her. I was like, who? Who's got her?

Speaker 9 This 17-year-old girl that's abducted literally out from underneath the boyfriend's nose.

Speaker 10 I was 18.

Speaker 4 It was just a blind attack. He nailed me pretty good with the butt of the pistol.

Speaker 5 Did you recognize this guy? No.

Speaker 12 He was dating my sister. My family loved him.

Speaker 5 Did you doubt his story?

Speaker 7 I had questions. He was at the top of our list, our primary suspect.

Speaker 13 We really had to dig deep.

Speaker 15 Someone had thought this out and had planned it.

Speaker 9 Are we dealing with a serial offender?

Speaker 16 Your heart aches.

Speaker 12 Anger, rage, tenacity.

Speaker 8 We weren't willing to give up.

Speaker 14 A romantic Valentine's dance turns riveting murder mystery.

Speaker 8 I made a promise to this family,

Speaker 8 and we're going to keep that promise.

Speaker 5 I'm Lester Holt, and this is Dateline.

Speaker 18 Here's Josh Mankiewicz with After the Dance.

Speaker 5 Deep inside the Fort Worth Police Department is a room where they keep the cold case files. Hundreds and hundreds of them.
Inside each one is a person crying for justice. Crying from the grave.

Speaker 8 When I walk into this room, that first feeling is like, holy cow, that's a lot of cases. That's a lot of people.

Speaker 5 So, where to begin? In 2018, this homicide detective found the answer when her phone rang. On the other end was a man with a hole in his heart.

Speaker 12 I asked us, how many code cases do you have? And she said, we have 971 unsolved murders. I said, man, my heart bleeds for all 971 of those families.
But right now, I only care

Speaker 12 about one case.

Speaker 5 Someone he loved had been murdered decades before.

Speaker 5 And as far as that man on the phone was concerned, the time to settle accounts was now or never.

Speaker 12 I said, whoever did this is either dead, dying, or running out of daylight.

Speaker 8 I said, what is your goal here?

Speaker 12 And I said to her, I want the truth. And she said, good.
That's what I'll give you. I'll tell you the truth.

Speaker 5 We'll start with a fundamental truth here in Texas. Friday nights are owned by tradition when high school football teams face off and a whole community cheers them on.

Speaker 19 I got to know Farrington Field.

Speaker 9 Great place.

Speaker 10 A lot of good memories.

Speaker 5 In 1974, Rodney McCoy was living at the center of that world. It was his senior year at Western Hills High School and he was the star quarterback of the Cougars.

Speaker 5 In this town and many like it across Texas, that meant something. High school football is kind of a religion around here.

Speaker 11 Oh, yeah, definitely is.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it's a big deal.

Speaker 5 It's the kind of memory you treasure for a lifetime. Except maybe not Rodney's lifetime.
You've told this story over the years a lot of times.

Speaker 5 You've told it to police and you've told it to your friends.

Speaker 5 This is it, isn't it? This is it.

Speaker 20 This is the last one.

Speaker 5 Back in 1974, Rodney had it all, including a girlfriend who filled up his world, Carla Walker, in her junior year at Western Hills. It was no secret they were the it couple.

Speaker 5 Classmate Brenda Wells remembers, They're the cool kids. What made them the cool kids?

Speaker 8 Because she's a cheerleader and she's dating the football player. That makes you cool in high school.

Speaker 5 Carla even had a car to complete the image, a a brand new Monte Carlo. She cruised Camp Bowie Boulevard with her friends, Christy Shelton and Connie Myers.

Speaker 8 You would go one place, see who was there, mingle with them. Okay, let's all go down to the other place.
That was just what you did.

Speaker 8 We would just go up and down, and even my parents, when they would go out with their friends, They would come through our parking lot and I was so embarrassed, but our parents knew that's where we we were.

Speaker 5 The memories are never far away, especially that one night in 1974, the one they can never forget, the Valentine's Day dance. How big a deal was that Valentine's Day dance?

Speaker 4 It was very important.

Speaker 10 You don't take your Valentine to the Valentine's dance.

Speaker 14 You're in big trouble.

Speaker 5 The day of the dance, Rodney had finished his shift at a local gas station, gone home, gotten dressed, and was headed over in his mom's Ford LTD to pick up Carla.

Speaker 4 I had forgotten the croissage,

Speaker 15 and there was no way I was going to go pick her up without the cross.

Speaker 10 Turned around, went back, got there, and I kind of felt something's going to have to give here.

Speaker 5 Because now you're definitely late. Oh, I'm way late.

Speaker 10 And I walked in, and I definitely got the look.

Speaker 5 Carla was not happy.

Speaker 10 I knew it, and I expected it.

Speaker 10 But I tell you, it's like as soon as I pinned that crossage on her, it was gone.

Speaker 5 Her anger. She looked like a million dollars? Oh, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 4 When she dressed up, she did it right.

Speaker 20 And with her, it really didn't take that much.

Speaker 5 They drove to dinner and then to the dance. The high school cafeteria was dressed up in pink and red.
The theme?

Speaker 5 Love is a kaleidoscope. Come on, it was high school.

Speaker 8 Had a great time.

Speaker 5 Danced the whole night.

Speaker 8 I remember Carla and Rodney coming in. We were all dancing on the floor together.

Speaker 5 Rodney and Carla seemed as in love as two teenagers can be.

Speaker 5 A couple of months earlier, Rodney had given Carla a promise ring.

Speaker 10 It meant a lot to me.

Speaker 5 It meant, I'm here.

Speaker 10 I'm yours.

Speaker 5 And i promise you

Speaker 5 back at the walker house carla's mom and dad were playing dominoes with relatives her big sister cindy and her little brother jim were watching tv it got to be 1 a.m

Speaker 12 i heard a car hitting a curb and then i heard rodney's voice outside yelling mr walker mr walker help me

Speaker 8 a little bit after that the front door just pounding you know pound pound pound, pound, pound. So Jimmy and I both went to the front door together and opened it, and it was Rodney.

Speaker 8 And he had was bleeding from his head down his face, had blood all over his shirt, just screaming. And I looked over his shoulder, like,

Speaker 5 where's Carla?

Speaker 8 He's like, they've got her, they've got her, they've got her. I was like, who? Who's got her?

Speaker 28 When we come back, what had happened to Carla?

Speaker 19 I see Carla's face and she screams, Rodney, go get my dad.

Speaker 18 Rodney, stunning story: a sudden, violent attack.

Speaker 19 He stuck the pistol about three or four inches from my face.

Speaker 5 Did you recognize this guy? No.

Speaker 24 I was terrified.

Speaker 5 18-year-old Rodney McCoy stood at the door of the Walker house. Carla's sister, Cindy, won't forget that moment.

Speaker 8 Rodney just says they've got to the gutter. We were at the bowling alley.
We were all in shock trying to figure out what exactly is he saying. We are all like, who was it?

Speaker 8 He said, I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 5 Carla's brother, Jim, was 12 years old.

Speaker 12 I was looking up at Rodney at the time, and he had a big cut going across his cheek and I could tell there was blood on him. He was panicked.

Speaker 14 And no Carla?

Speaker 12 And no Carla.

Speaker 5 They called the police. Carla's father didn't wait for them to arrive.

Speaker 12 Next thing I saw was my dad running, had his pistol, was going out the door to go up to the bowling alley where Rodney had told him this had happened.

Speaker 5 Rodney was taken to the hospital, his head wound stitched up, and quickly found himself telling his story to Fort Worth police. Rodney told us what he told them.
After the dance, you go for a ride.

Speaker 10 Yeah, and everybody, you know, hey, let's meet up at

Speaker 4 Taco Bell, which was

Speaker 10 Friday, Saturday night was the hangout.

Speaker 5 Rodney invited another couple to join them.

Speaker 21 We just kind of cruised around and was talking and just having a good old time.

Speaker 5 About 12.30, Rodney dropped the other couple at their car. He said he and Carla kept cruising Camp Bowie Boulevard.

Speaker 25 You know, I was having such a good time.

Speaker 4 I didn't even care what time it was.

Speaker 5 You didn't have a curfew and she didn't have a curfew.

Speaker 4 Well, it was kind of an understood curfew.

Speaker 19 And the walkers, they just, they trusted me.

Speaker 5 Carla had to find a bathroom. The bowling alley was the stop for that.

Speaker 5 When they returned to the parking lot, Rodney said one thing led to another.

Speaker 24 We started kissing, making out, and doing what teenagers do.

Speaker 19 And her head was pretty much on the armrests, but she had taken her purse and put it behind her head and kind of, you know, a pillow.

Speaker 5 That's when Rodney's teenage dream evaporated. He still says he will never forget the moment.
The passenger door burst open and standing there was a stranger with a gun.

Speaker 20 And when you opened the door, we both kind of, our heads both fell out of the car, basically.

Speaker 5 Rodney said the man began hitting him with a pistol.

Speaker 4 He nailed me pretty good on the first shot with the butt of the pistol.

Speaker 19 He had put his hand inside the car and stuck the pistol about three or four inches from my face and started pulling the trigger.

Speaker 20 I do remember clicks, three clicks.

Speaker 5 He pulls the trigger three times. Three times.

Speaker 19 Three or four times.

Speaker 5 Rodney said the gun didn't fire. By then, he said the man had grabbed Carla by the arm and pulled her out of the car, still swinging the pistol at Rodney with his other hand.

Speaker 19 Finally, she said, Stop hitting him, stop hitting him, I'll go with you.

Speaker 5 Did you recognize this guy?

Speaker 11 No, I didn't even get a look at the guy's face.

Speaker 5 Did it seem that Carla knew him? No, no. What do you say?

Speaker 4 I didn't say anything.

Speaker 10 It was all I could do to hold myself up up and trying to wipe the blood at the same time.

Speaker 5 He said he could see Carla with the stranger as he pulled her away.

Speaker 19 I see Carla's face and

Speaker 5 she

Speaker 10 screams, Rodney, go get my dad.

Speaker 26 And

Speaker 25 that's...

Speaker 20 The last word I heard her say.

Speaker 10 That's the last time I saw her.

Speaker 15 I just I went out

Speaker 19 face first in the seat.

Speaker 5 Rodney said he must have blacked out. How long do you think you were out? I had no idea.

Speaker 5 When he came to, he said he had just one thought.

Speaker 24 All I could think of is going to get Mr.

Speaker 4 Walker. It was just right around the corner, down the hill, and there was her house.

Speaker 5 Her dad, who'd headed straight to the Bowling Alley parking lot, gun in hand, came back home after finding no sign of his daughter. Thinking Carla might never come home was too hard for her sister.

Speaker 8 I slept on the couch in the living room, and every time I heard a car go by, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock morning, I would jump up, just sit up on the couch and look out the window, thinking they were going to drop her off.

Speaker 8 Just go slow and push her out the car.

Speaker 12 The bottom of the world fell out at our house that night.

Speaker 5 Carla's little brother Jim tried to wrap his preteen brain around it. What were the next couple of days like in that house?

Speaker 12 Intense.

Speaker 12 We had

Speaker 12 the Fort Worth Police Department, Tarrant County Sheriff's Department, the FBI, Texas Rangers, just inundating there.

Speaker 5 And Rodney was there too.

Speaker 8 Rodney was at home with us the whole time. He slept up there in Carla's bed.

Speaker 4 I was terrified.

Speaker 24 All my thoughts and everything were.

Speaker 2 We got to find Carla.

Speaker 5 We got to find Carla.

Speaker 5 Police were thinking the same thing.

Speaker 18 Coming up, a discovery on a remote road outside of town. What would investigators uncover?

Speaker 15 It made me believe that someone had thought this out and had planned it.

Speaker 14 When Dateline continues.

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Speaker 5 Police were searching for Carla Walker and trying to puzzle out who might have taken her.

Speaker 5 Her big family was about to be tested. She was one of five children.
Jim was her little brother.

Speaker 5 Tell me about your big sister.

Speaker 12 Carla had a lot of friends.

Speaker 5 What did you think she was going to become?

Speaker 12 I knew she was going to go to college. I know that she wanted to be a veterinarian.

Speaker 12 Carla was tiny but mighty.

Speaker 5 She still hadn't made it to five feet tall.

Speaker 12 No, 4'11 on a good day if she is taking a deep breath.

Speaker 8 100 pounds, little blonde thing.

Speaker 8 That was just a little Spitfire.

Speaker 5 Carla's big sister, Cindy, says they did everything together.

Speaker 8 We shared the same bedroom for 17 years. If you looked at all the pictures, family pictures, it was always Carla and I together getting our pictures made.
If I was there, she was there.

Speaker 8 If she was there, I was there.

Speaker 5 Sydney says Carla was funny, sweet, but also tough and stubborn and never gave up easily. That's how she ended up behind the wheel of that Monte Carlo.

Speaker 8 When Carla turned 16, she says, I want a brand new Monte Carlo.

Speaker 5 And I'm like, Are you serious, really?

Speaker 8 And she told my parents, if I can't get that, I just don't get me a car right now.

Speaker 5 And then a short time later, there there was her new car.

Speaker 8 She got exactly what she wanted, her brand new Monte Carlo.

Speaker 5 Yes, she did.

Speaker 5 Now the Monte Carlo sat in the walker's driveway as police searched for Carla.

Speaker 12 It was a flurry of activity. It was intensity.
It was strategizing, gnashing of teeth,

Speaker 5 worried. Anybody sleeping?

Speaker 12 Not really. No.

Speaker 5 Four days after Carla went missing, a patrol officer spotted something in a culvert on a remote road southwest of town. You were on call that night? Right.

Speaker 5 Jim Minter was a criminal investigator with the Tarrant County Sheriff's Office.

Speaker 15 Call was a dead body of a young woman.

Speaker 5 He headed to the culvert.

Speaker 23 When I got here, there were probably, oh, 30 uniformed officers. The road was blocked off, and shortly after I arrived, were the plainclothes people and the crime scene people arrived.

Speaker 5 One of those crime scene investigators was Jack Bolton with the Fort Worth Police Department. As he looked down into the culvert, he had no doubt it was Carla.

Speaker 31 I was the first person to go in that culvert. She was a beautiful girl.
She appeared to be asleep. Then I saw the deep gashes she had on her thighs and legs.

Speaker 5 Yours was one of the few departments in the country that had its own crime lab at that point.

Speaker 31 We had the very most advanced crime lab in Texas.

Speaker 5 And to stay on the cutting edge, Bolton had just purchased what was then a high-tech Kodak movie camera. Now he looked through the viewfinder and hit the button.

Speaker 31 Our job was to document the crime scene, and that's what we did.

Speaker 5 The culvert ran under the road, maybe 30 feet long and just tall enough to stand in.

Speaker 5 She was on her back and her clothes were torn.

Speaker 31 She had some bruises on her neck.

Speaker 5 She put up a hell of a fight.

Speaker 31 I believe she probably did.

Speaker 5 Absolutely.

Speaker 15 We went almost inch by inch through that crime scene, identifying any type of physical evidence.

Speaker 5 Tell me about that area.

Speaker 15 It's country. Very few people live there and about the only traffic you have there are people that are going to and from the lake.

Speaker 15 And in February, there's not a lot of traffic going to that lake because it's cold.

Speaker 5 The culvert is nine miles from where Carla was taken and difficult to see even from the road.

Speaker 15 It made me believe that someone had thought this out and had planned it.

Speaker 5 They took Carla's body to the morgue for autopsy. Bolton kept filming.

Speaker 31 Her clothes were taken, and we took every precaution not to contaminate anything to seal it properly.

Speaker 31 Had no idea we were going to DNA, but we knew we needed to preserve it because technology was coming along so fast that who knows, you know,

Speaker 31 maybe they can do something with this later on.

Speaker 5 And the investigators' meticulous attention, the care they took to avoid contamination of the evidence, all that would prove critical. decades later.

Speaker 5 What did the medical examiner tell you about what had happened to Carla Carla Walker?

Speaker 15 He said she was strangled, been assaulted, sexually assaulted.

Speaker 15 And that's about all he could tell us.

Speaker 5 Now they had to tell an anxious family the worst possible news.

Speaker 30 Coming up.

Speaker 12 I heard my mom scream.

Speaker 24 You feel your heart just drop.

Speaker 3 The hunt is on for Carla's killer.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 5 I don't know what to do next.

Speaker 18 Could hypnosis help the only witness remember something?

Speaker 5 Investigators in Fort Worth, Texas had found 17-year-old Carla Walker's body in a lonely culvert. She'd been raped, strangled, and badly bruised.
It wasn't clear in what order.

Speaker 5 Now they had to tell her family.

Speaker 12 Sheriff's department came by, and mom and dad had to go down and identify Carla's body.

Speaker 5 A neighbor drove them to the morgue. Young Jim waited in the car.

Speaker 12 Mom and dad got out and went through like double emergency doors

Speaker 5 into a long hallway.

Speaker 12 They went into the room about 15 seconds later. I heard, you know, I heard my mom scream, that scream that you don't ever want to hear anybody scream.

Speaker 5 Rodney was with Carla's sister Cindy when a relative told them the news.

Speaker 27 Kind of collapsed to my knees

Speaker 10 and

Speaker 32 Cindy was holding on to me.

Speaker 5 And we were both crying and

Speaker 24 you feel your heart just drop.

Speaker 32 And that's when it's over.

Speaker 32 It's over.

Speaker 5 A few days later, the town packed Carlos' funeral.

Speaker 12 Massive.

Speaker 5 Everybody was there.

Speaker 12 Yes, standing room only. People had to be outside.

Speaker 5 Officers went to the funeral, took pictures of everything and everyone. Yes, sir.
Criminal investigator Jim Minter. Because you thought your killer was in that church.

Speaker 15 We didn't know. It was a once-in-a-lifetime chance to make that record.
And if it came up later, then we'd have the evidence.

Speaker 5 Carla's friends, Connie and Christy, were still just kids themselves. And they couldn't believe it.

Speaker 8 It was an open casket, which was very difficult. And I

Speaker 8 just remember sitting with my hands

Speaker 8 over my face most of the time. When we left, everyone had to walk in front of the casket.

Speaker 8 Walking by the casket,

Speaker 8 I pretty much passed out.

Speaker 8 It was just too much.

Speaker 5 Carla's murder changed everything.

Speaker 8 We wouldn't really go anywhere. We didn't want to go to the hangout anymore.
We didn't want to cruise up and down Camp Buy because we were scared. I didn't want to live there anymore.

Speaker 8 I remember I told my parents, we've got to leave. I don't want to be here.

Speaker 5 Front pages demanded an answer. Who killed Carla Walker?

Speaker 5 Investigative techniques were different back in 1974. Fort Worth Police did not have a lot of the tools many departments have today.
There were no cell phones to trace or ping.

Speaker 5 No text messages or hard drives to download and examine. Forensic DNA was investigative science fiction.
And security cameras were not everywhere. In fact,

Speaker 5 they were hardly anywhere.

Speaker 5 So there was no video of that parking lot. That said, police did have someone who saw it all with his own eyes, Rodney McCoy.

Speaker 5 They'd hoped Rodney could help them identify the killer. But he said he couldn't remember much about his attacker.

Speaker 5 So, with Rodney's agreement, investigators tried something that that back then was considered cutting edge. Okay,

Speaker 5 Rodney wants to relax now.

Speaker 5 Hypnosis.

Speaker 13 Just going around

Speaker 13 and everybody's coming around.

Speaker 15 I wasn't a big believer

Speaker 13 in it,

Speaker 15 but the hypnotist took his time and put Rodney under, and Rodney relived that scene. The door came open.

Speaker 15 Gone.

Speaker 15 See the gun.

Speaker 15 Stunned. I just feel like shaking.

Speaker 15 Don't kill him. He's born on he's got a hold of an arm.

Speaker 5 He was able to describe the man well enough for police to make this sketch.

Speaker 5 Looks like some kind of green steamless jacket. A cowboy hat.
And he talks like a cowboy. How does that cowboy talk?

Speaker 5 Just that panic.

Speaker 15 And he cried and the snot ran out of his nose and I thought that he was going to have to be hospitalized when it was over and finally the man brought him back.

Speaker 5 Well, close your eyes, Rodney.

Speaker 5 Relax again.

Speaker 5 Hearing Rodney talk about a cowboy gave Minter an idea. He started wondering if maybe the killer came into town with the annual rodeo.

Speaker 15 It comes in January and February here, and we interviewed and went out to the rodeo and looked at people that criminal records that worked at the carnival and contestants and clowns.

Speaker 5 But that didn't produce a suspect.

Speaker 15 Not any, sir. No.

Speaker 5 And all through the early investigation, police never took their eyes off Rodney and continued to pepper him with questions. Tell me about those detective interviews.

Speaker 5 It was pretty intimidating for me.

Speaker 10 It doesn't take you long to realize you're a suspect.

Speaker 30 Coming up.

Speaker 15 We each individually took a shot at questioning him. If he was involved, we were trying to find out what has happened.

Speaker 10 You're not thinking about anything else, but, you know,

Speaker 4 how could I be a suspect?

Speaker 5 Well, I'm going to tell you how.

Speaker 14 When dateline continues.

Speaker 5 Carla Walker's boyfriend, Rodney McCoy, was the last person known to see her alive. He said he was both a victim and a witness.

Speaker 5 Police had to consider another possibility that he had something to do with Carla's murder. So they kept grilling him.

Speaker 15 We each individually took a shot at questioning him.

Speaker 5 Investigator Jim Minter says those sessions weren't pleasant for Rodney.

Speaker 15 We didn't sit there and hold his hand and put our arms around his shoulder. If he was involved, we were trying to find out what has happened, wanting him to tell us.

Speaker 5 And you challenged him on it. You weren't just buying everything he said.

Speaker 15 Exactly.

Speaker 5 They're asking you the same questions.

Speaker 15 Same questions over and over and over again. And

Speaker 10 you're 18, you're not thinking about, you know,

Speaker 11 anything else, but, you know,

Speaker 4 how could I be a suspect? I mean, for me anyway.

Speaker 5 Well, I'm going to tell you how. You didn't go to the police initially.
You drove back to the Walkers.

Speaker 5 You said they took Carla, but then you describe only one man. Right.

Speaker 4 I thought I'd been shot.

Speaker 26 And

Speaker 4 from where we were at, you know, the nearest police station was

Speaker 23 20, 30 minutes away. And I have no idea

Speaker 11 why I would say they.

Speaker 4 You know, to me, it was only one person there.

Speaker 5 If Rodney had killed Carla, maybe they'd had a fight. Police questioned everyone who'd seen the it couple that night.
Did you know Rodney and Carla?

Speaker 8 No, I knew of them because they're football players and cheerleaders.

Speaker 5 Brenda Wells had been at the Valentine's Dance. She was a 15-year-old freshman, and her date played baseball with Rodney.

Speaker 5 They were the couple Rodney and Carla had cruised around with before the attack. And being around them made you cooler.
Well, for an hour.

Speaker 5 Police wanted to know the mood in that car.

Speaker 8 The short time that we were together, everything was very lighthearted. We just had a good time.

Speaker 5 Nobody was fighting? No, not at all.

Speaker 8 I was excited to have met her.

Speaker 5 And she and Rodney seemed to be getting along well.

Speaker 5 Perfect.

Speaker 8 I mean,

Speaker 8 there were no harsh words in the whole car.

Speaker 5 As they talked with more of Carla's friends, police heard nothing to suggest Rodney would have had any reason to harm Carla.

Speaker 8 Never suspected Rodney.

Speaker 8 He was too crazy about her. I had friends calling me and saying, Connie, do you think Rodney had no, absolutely not?

Speaker 5 And Carla's family had nothing but good things to say about him. Rodney really became part of your family.

Speaker 12 Absolutely. He was, I mean, my parents loved him, trusted him,

Speaker 5 and they believed him. That story he was telling make any sense to you?

Speaker 12 You know, at the time it did. It did make sense to me.

Speaker 5 Rodney passed two police polygraph exams and always maintained his innocence.

Speaker 15 I never thought Rodney had anything to do with this. He was just a scared little boy at that time.
They got pistol whipped.

Speaker 5 While they couldn't couldn't completely rule out rodney police did widen their hunt for the killer when they searched the bowling alley parking lot they found carla's purse and next to it a magazine from a pistol that ended up being a pretty big piece of evidence oh absolutely it was um it came from a ruger pistol we knew that

Speaker 5 and the way that particular gun is constructed If some stranger had used it to hit Rodney on the head, the magazine could easily have fallen out.

Speaker 5 That seemed to back up Rodney's claim there had been a stranger and that the gun misfired.

Speaker 15 This gun won't fire unless the magazine's in it.

Speaker 5 Now, Minter hoped that magazine would lead them to a killer.

Speaker 15 We were able to get some federal help to determine everybody that had bought a Ruger pistol in this area.

Speaker 5 How many people are we talking about?

Speaker 5 40. That's a small enough number that you can go around and talk to every one of them.

Speaker 15 We did.

Speaker 15 Each and every one of them.

Speaker 5 Anyone jump out at you?

Speaker 15 Everybody had an alibi or had the gun and you know, were able, we're willing to turn it over.

Speaker 5 Investigators didn't just take their word for it. How many people did you end up asking to take a polygraph?

Speaker 15 20, maybe.

Speaker 5 And everybody passed.

Speaker 15 Yes, sir. Everybody passed.

Speaker 5 Disappointing.

Speaker 15 Very disappointing.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean, she was like, I don't think as the investigation dragged on,

Speaker 5 the Walker family tried to carry on.

Speaker 5 Carla's sister Cindy had planned her wedding before Carla was murdered.

Speaker 8 I did get married like three months after. She was going to be on my maid of honor and I didn't want to have the wedding then, but I got talked into it.
You need to go ahead and do it. Let's do it.

Speaker 5 Carla's mom and dad kept a brave face.

Speaker 12 It comes from that era where

Speaker 5 we had a family.

Speaker 12 Didn't talk about it. Honey, we've got a family.
We've got other sons and daughters. They're still here.
Let's make a good life for them. Good memories.

Speaker 5 Jim soon realized that stoicism was just a facade.

Speaker 12 I figured out where my mom cried.

Speaker 12 So going into their bedroom should shut one door. Going into their bathroom should shut another door.
And the way

Speaker 12 their bathroom was designed should go into a shower with a glass door. And

Speaker 12 can we stop for a second? Yes. Hmm.

Speaker 12 Hang on one second, guys.

Speaker 5 There's a ripple effect to every murder, even all these years later.

Speaker 3 Coming up, a new suspect with a stunner of a story.

Speaker 16 He walks into a police station, says he's responsible for the murder of Carla Walker.

Speaker 33 Hi there, it's Andy Richter, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, The Three Questions with Andy Richter.

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Speaker 35 New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like Julie Bow and Ted Danson, Tig Nataro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers, and more.

Speaker 33 You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter call-in show episodes, where me and a special guest invite callers callers to weigh in on topics like dating disasters, bad teachers, and lots more.

Speaker 38 Listen to the three questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 5 Carla Walker's case was on the front burner until It wasn't.

Speaker 15 We had hundreds of leads on Carla's case, maybe 40 40 or 50 officers that worked for two months

Speaker 15 just running down the leads that we got.

Speaker 5 And then eventually, you've run down all those leads and there's nothing there.

Speaker 15 Well, through attrition,

Speaker 15 the leads stopped coming in.

Speaker 5 You start getting disheartened at all?

Speaker 15 Well, sure you do, but it doesn't mean we stop.

Speaker 27 Carlo was a precocious 17-year-old and a junior at Western Hills High.

Speaker 5 Enter Vincent Strange.

Speaker 5 Not his real name, but it's the one he goes by on his true crime podcast called Gone Cold. He'd been digging into Carla's case for years.

Speaker 16 We stumbled upon Carla's story 2016, I think. Got obsessed with it.

Speaker 5 What is it about cold cases?

Speaker 16 Well, it's certainly the mystery behind them is more interesting, just at the get-go.

Speaker 5 As he researched the case, Strange found that about two months after Carla's murder, Fort Worth police arrested a notorious serial killer.

Speaker 16 Tommy Ray Nealand, he's a guy who got popped for abducting a girl in Arlington. She got away when his truck got stuck in the mud.

Speaker 16 Cops staked him out and got him, arrested him.

Speaker 5 Nealand then confessed to murdering two teenage hitchhikers in Oklahoma and abducting and murdering another woman in Texas.

Speaker 16 Well, when he spilled the beans about all these other crimes he'd committed, I guess pretty natural that the cops straight away thought that he was responsible for Carla Walker's murder.

Speaker 5 Police put Nealand in this lineup and asked Rodney McCoy to listen to each man say, come with me, the words Rodney says the killer used.

Speaker 5 And Rodney picked Tommy Nealand.

Speaker 5 Except, while Nealand did confess and was convicted of those other crimes, He did not confess to Carla's. Still, he stayed on the list.
Then, three years after Carla's murder, another suspect emerged.

Speaker 16 Jimmy Dean Sasser. Oh yeah.

Speaker 16 Somewhere near Nashville, I believe. He walks into a police station, says he's responsible for the murder of Carla Walker.
You know, of course, they immediately phone the Fort Worth police.

Speaker 5 The district attorney indicted Sasser for Carla's murder. But Jim Minter wasn't buying it.

Speaker 15 There was so much information in the newspapers at at that time, you could tell a pretty good story.

Speaker 16 His mother is quoted in the Fort Worth Star Telegram as saying that he often got drunk and confessed to crimes.

Speaker 5 As one does. Sure.

Speaker 14 Right.

Speaker 16 And so that particular day, I suppose it was Carla Walker.

Speaker 42 Sasser walked out of the Tarrant County Jail, a free man, for the first time in eight months when his talking got him in trouble with the law.

Speaker 5 Sure enough, Sasser recanted his confession and told NBC station KXAS he had invented it.

Speaker 42 How did you come to pick Carla Walker's case, Jimmy?

Speaker 22 Well, I don't know really. I just found out this quibbo sky just, you know, made the story up.

Speaker 16 So her story was staying in the media and it gained legendary kind of status.

Speaker 5 Legendary, yes, but it was a legend without a final act. As the years went by, Carla's classmates kept her memory alive.
They raised the money to have this mosaic built in her honor.

Speaker 8 It's been here ever since, and the kids aren't allowed to walk on it.

Speaker 8 I wish it wasn't here, because if it wasn't here, that means she'd be with us. That's what I wish.

Speaker 5 Some things did not change over those years.

Speaker 5 Football still reigns supreme at Western Hills, and Rodney Rodney McCoy's jersey number 15 was passed down to a different cougar, living his best life under the Friday night lights.

Speaker 5 And Rodney, he skipped out of junior college and headed up to Alaska to work on the North Slope oil rigs. He says he left Fort Worth because he couldn't live with the guilt.

Speaker 10 Carlos saved my life.

Speaker 24 I wish it would have been the other way around.

Speaker 5 You wish she were still here and you weren't. Yeah.

Speaker 26 And

Speaker 24 for so many years, so many years, my thoughts were

Speaker 19 how terrified and how scared Carla was that night.

Speaker 24 That's been with me forever.

Speaker 5 And so has the cloud of suspicion that hung over Rodney.

Speaker 5 As much as he tried to ignore them, there were those who continued to think he killed Carla.

Speaker 5 Carla's sister, Cindy, had kids of her own, including a daughter she named Carla Jan.

Speaker 8 I said, you are just like your aunt Carla. You got the same sassy attitude, the short little legs.
I said, I'm being punished. I know I am.
She's doing that on purpose. We would joke about that.

Speaker 5 By the late 70s, Carla's brother Jim was attending Western Hills High himself. He remembers how angry and mixed up he was.
Once, he spent the night in the culvert where his sister had been found.

Speaker 5 Why'd you do that?

Speaker 12 Honest answer, hoping I could kill somebody.

Speaker 5 Hoping your killer would return to the scene of the crime.

Speaker 12 And I was going to take care of him right there.

Speaker 5 Yep. Because you felt powerless.

Speaker 12 Anger.

Speaker 12 Rage.

Speaker 5 Years later, as an adult, Jim tried to channel that rage. All of this led you initially to a career in law enforcement.

Speaker 12 Yes, I applied and got accepted to the Fort Worth Police Department.

Speaker 5 All because of Carla's case.

Speaker 12 That's the only reason I wanted to do it.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 5 That dream was cut short by a genetic eye condition that left Jim legally blind. After his father died in 1987, Jim moved in, took care of his mom, and then bought the house after her death.

Speaker 43 I didn't want to miss the opportunity if somebody knocked on our front door at three o'clock in the morning with a

Speaker 43 guilty conscience or end-of-life story to tell me.

Speaker 43 The years passed.

Speaker 5 No one came. The original investigators retired.
Carlos Files took up residence in that cold case room next to hundreds of others.

Speaker 5 There was a very long period of time when nothing seemed to be happening on this case.

Speaker 12 Dead.

Speaker 5 You probably thought it was not ever going to be solved.

Speaker 12 You know,

Speaker 12 I can tell you, I really felt a spirit saying, this is a marathon. You're not in a sprint.

Speaker 5 This is a marathon, not a sprint.

Speaker 12 It's a marathon. We're in it for the long haul, so just keep moving.

Speaker 5 And on the horizon, there was something that looked like it might be a finish line.

Speaker 8 I looked at the Carla Walker case as a challenge.

Speaker 30 Coming up.

Speaker 18 Carla's dress from the night of the murder.

Speaker 8 The tech in the lab called me and said that she found a place on the dress that had a small stain that was exciting.

Speaker 18 Could that stain be the key? Hope would rest with three crucial letters, D-N-A.

Speaker 14 When dateline continues.

Speaker 5 More than 30 years had passed, and Carla Walker's murder remained unsolved.

Speaker 5 Her friends, Connie and Christy,

Speaker 5 couldn't let her memory go.

Speaker 8 She was always with us.

Speaker 5 Always. In my heart, always.

Speaker 5 I dreamed about her.

Speaker 8 When I would dream about her, she always comforted me. She would always tell me in her dreams that she was okay.
Don't worry about me.

Speaker 5 I'm okay.

Speaker 5 Carla's brother, Jim, wasn't okay. Her murder changed his life, and he made sure his big big sister never slipped off police radar.

Speaker 12 I never met one law enforcement officer that did not want to solve this case.

Speaker 5 It was a case that wouldn't go away.

Speaker 8 It shouldn't go away.

Speaker 5 One of those was Detective Sarah Waters.

Speaker 8 Jimmy's hope was to solve his sister's case before his parents died. First one, then the other, so the hope of doing it for them evaporated.
But he still needed it.

Speaker 5 In 2005, her sergeant asked her to try to clear some cold cases, including Carla's.

Speaker 5 Waters sent Carla's dress, so carefully preserved by those original investigators, to the crime lab to see if they could spot any new evidence.

Speaker 8 The tech in the lab called me and said that she found a place on the dress that had a small stain that was the perfect shape of a sperm.

Speaker 8 That was exciting.

Speaker 5 Because by 2005, DNA testing was a brand new way to solve old cases. Of course, Rodney's DNA was on Carla's dress.
They'd been making out in the car.

Speaker 8 It was expected that his DNA would be there somewhere.

Speaker 5 Waters wanted to know if there was anyone else's DNA on the dress. And in fact, the crime lab was able to come up with the profile of an unknown male.
But it was incomplete.

Speaker 8 A partial profile for DNA is only good for one thing, and that's to eliminate a subject.

Speaker 5 So Waters had that DNA compared to half a dozen other samples detectives had collected over the years.

Speaker 8 Some were known criminals. Some were people that she had known in the past.

Speaker 5 Remember that serial killer from the 70s, Tommy Ray Nealand? He was eliminated. All the other suspects were eliminated too.
Waters kept at it. One year turned into five and then into ten.

Speaker 5 By 2015, she was ready to retire.

Speaker 8 I had eliminated every suspect that I had DNA for. I told my sergeant then, it's going to take new technology to solve this.

Speaker 5 It wouldn't be long before that new technology would be ready. Fast forward three more years to January 2018.
Leo Wagner would be the latest Fort Worth detective to get an earful from Jim Walker.

Speaker 8 And Jim was very frustrated. He called and he wanted to know how we could get the Texas Rangers to investigate the case.

Speaker 8 So I listened to him bent for a while and I said, well, Jim, I said, why do you want the Rangers to investigate it?

Speaker 12 I said, whoever did this to my sister is either dead, dying, or is getting really to a point in life where we're running out of daylight.

Speaker 5 Detective Wagner said she'd take a look at the case. She did tell Jim not to get his hopes up.

Speaker 8 I'm going to be blunt with you and I'm going to tell you if everything has been done that can be done,

Speaker 8 then I'll let you know that.

Speaker 5 Which means the answer could be everything from we found a suspect and we're going to prosecute to we don't have enough to go forward or the person you're looking for is probably dead.

Speaker 41 Yes.

Speaker 5 Detective Jeff Bennett joined the case.

Speaker 13 Starting from the very beginning and reading everything was going to be the best method moving forward with this case.

Speaker 5 So maybe people who hadn't been suspects before or who'd been dismissed as possible suspects were now conceivably back on the board.

Speaker 13 Absolutely. People that may have been excluded for one reason or another, let's say through polygraphs.
If there wasn't enough reason to really exclude them, put them back on our list.

Speaker 5 That list grew to 83 names.

Speaker 4 So on the list are ex-boyfriends, friends of Carla's, other males in the school.

Speaker 45 Really appreciate you male.

Speaker 5 Detectives interviewed as many of them as they could. Most of the stories they heard seemed to check out.
Even so, they weren't taking any chances.

Speaker 8 We pretty much asked every male if they would voluntarily give consent for their swab.

Speaker 45 Just open up one

Speaker 45 and look up. up.

Speaker 13 And we really put the emphasis on the purpose of doing this is to exclude you.

Speaker 5 Right. Which is what you guys always say.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 8 Well, I mean, you know, we just want to find out the truth.

Speaker 5 If you're not the guy, then it does exclude you.

Speaker 8 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 Sure enough, all those men were excluded. So police tried something else, hoping to generate new leads.
They posted about the case on Facebook.

Speaker 8 We had a tremendous reaction from the public.

Speaker 5 Part of that came from a woman who sent a message that made police sit up in their chairs.

Speaker 8 Her post basically alluded to the fact that she believed that she knew who killed Carla.

Speaker 30 Coming up.

Speaker 7 She had found a metal box.

Speaker 11 It had all the newspaper clippings of Carla's murder.

Speaker 18 That Facebook tip leads detectives to a brand new person of interest.

Speaker 13 He had lived a couple of blocks from Carlo.

Speaker 46 Where would you say that you were on that day?

Speaker 33 Hi there, it's Andy Richter, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, The Three Questions with Andy Richter.

Speaker 34 Each week, I invite friends, comedians, actors, and musicians to discuss these three questions: where do you come from?

Speaker 21 Where are you going? And what have you learned?

Speaker 35 New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like Julie Bow and Ted Danson, Tig Nataro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers, and more.

Speaker 33 You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter call-in show episodes, where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating disasters, bad teachers, and lots more.

Speaker 38 Listen to the three questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 5 Detectives had heard from a woman who said she knew who'd killed Carla Walker. It was someone she was quite familiar with.
They'd actually lived together. She told police it was her ex-husband.

Speaker 5 What made her think he was a suspect?

Speaker 7 Well, she had found a metal box in their house.

Speaker 13 It had all the newspaper clippings and articles of Carla's murder and her funeral. And he had lived a couple of blocks from Carla when he was growing up.

Speaker 5 The man's name, Stephen Claire. He was 17 at the time of the murder.
They go to the same school? They know each other? Yes. They did know each other.

Speaker 8 They were acquainted.

Speaker 14 Her younger brother, Jim, knew Steve.

Speaker 5 So they asked Claire, by then 63 years old, to come in for an interview.

Speaker 44 We're here today because a response was posted by an ex-wife of yours.

Speaker 5 Was he happy to see you?

Speaker 13 No, had to talk with his attorney a couple of times.

Speaker 5 How did Mr. Clare explain that box with all that Carla Walker material in it?

Speaker 13 He said that he had a box, but it had lots of memorabilia from his past in it.

Speaker 5 It wasn't just Carla Walker information.

Speaker 47 I can tell you to this day

Speaker 47 I still have a box with my mom's, my dad's, my friends, my co-workers,

Speaker 47 my sister-in-law, my stepson. All those weapons would have been in there too.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 46 Because you would save those and put them in your boxes and keep safety for people that you were friends as a memorial. Yeah.

Speaker 13 Nothing unusual about that.

Speaker 5 Claire told detectives he also had something else. An alibi.

Speaker 46 Where would you say that you were on that day?

Speaker 47 In Austin.

Speaker 13 He did show evidence that he was not living in the area at the time of the murder.

Speaker 5 Claire allowed detectives to take a DNA sample.

Speaker 45 Easy enough.

Speaker 14 We were able to to rule him out pretty quickly.

Speaker 5 Claire's ex-wife was wrong. He wasn't the killer and had nothing to do with Carla's murder.
Another dead end. Not the first and not the last.

Speaker 5 Because now there was someone else. Someone detectives could not rule out.
We'll give you three guesses who that was.

Speaker 44 So our number one suspect was Carla's boyfriend, Rodney McCoy.

Speaker 5 Rodney, the man the original investigators came to believe, the last person known to see Carla Walker alive.

Speaker 8 The reason being is that most murders are going to have somebody that knows the person involved. Stranger killings just don't happen that often.

Speaker 5 That wasn't the only reason. As they dug through the file from the early days of the investigation, detectives found three letters sent to police.

Speaker 8 One of them was postmarked the 25th of February in 1974, so just a few days after Carla was found.

Speaker 5 All three accuse Rodney of murdering Carla. This could be the killer trying to point the finger at Rodney to get suspicion off him.
That's correct.

Speaker 8 Or it could have been a witness that knew it was Rodney.

Speaker 5 There was no proof offered in any of those letters. So detectives were left with their own suspicions about the story Rodney had told.
Because some of it simply didn't make sense.

Speaker 8 Right now, we are at the parking lot of the bowling alley in which Carla Walker was abducted in 1974.

Speaker 8 The drive from the bowling alley to the Walker's house is only about a mile, which for a drive should take only about two to three minutes.

Speaker 8 Rodney told original investigators that he woke up about five minutes after being knocked unconscious.

Speaker 8 But that creates a problem because there's a time gap of about 30 to 45 minutes in which he can't account for

Speaker 5 turn left. Detectives found the trip from the bowling alley to the culvert where Carla was found and then back to the Walker house could be made in less than 45 minutes.

Speaker 6 So this is the Walker's house.

Speaker 13 This is where Rodney would have pulled into this driveway.

Speaker 5 They wondered why Rodney hadn't either gone straight to a police station or even used a phone at the bowling alley to try to call for help.

Speaker 45 So you are Cindy,

Speaker 45 sister, Carla,

Speaker 45 and you are Tim or James. James, yes, ma'am.
Brother of Carla. Correct.

Speaker 5 Carla's siblings, who had always thought Rodney was innocent, told detectives even they were bothered by something back when Rodney came to their door that awful night.

Speaker 45 What did he look like? He was at blood on his face. I mean wet or dry? Dry.
Just coagulated.

Speaker 12 As I got older, I realized that cut on Rodney's cheek, it looked like it was not dry, but coagulating. Does that make sense?

Speaker 5 Which made you doubt his story?

Speaker 12 I had questions, and it all came back to the timeline.

Speaker 5 And remember what Rodney said.

Speaker 45 So you heard they multiple times? Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
I mean, that was, they got her, they got her. Who's they? I don't know.
They got her. Mr.
Walker helped me. They got her.

Speaker 45 They're going to hurt her bad. I know they aren't.

Speaker 5 He says to the Walkers, they took Carla. Then he describes only one person.
Correct.

Speaker 5 And there was something else Rodney said, something he also told us.

Speaker 19 He had stuck the pistol about, I don't know, three or four inches from my face and started pulling the trigger.

Speaker 24 And I do remember clicks, three clicks.

Speaker 5 Plausible? Maybe.

Speaker 5 It's just not possible.

Speaker 5 Detective Bennett showed us why that could not have happened. with the magazine out of the gun.

Speaker 13 So when you pull the trigger, you'll get a click and no fire, but you cannot continue to fire the gun.

Speaker 14 And you can't get the hammer, will not fall.

Speaker 44 If you charge it again,

Speaker 42 one hammer fall.

Speaker 7 So you start adding all of that up.

Speaker 5 And it spells suspicion.

Speaker 30 Coming up.

Speaker 19 What do you think should happen to the person that did this to Carlos?

Speaker 29 They should be in prison the rest of their lives.

Speaker 18 Rodney McCoy back in the interview room and in the lab. A devastating setback.

Speaker 9 I was crushed.

Speaker 5 I was like, did we just kill this case?

Speaker 14 When dateline continues.

Speaker 5 Over the years, Rodney McCoy had tried to get on with his life.

Speaker 10 The thing that bothered me more than anything, was just the pain from that night.

Speaker 15 I mean, it's been torment for, you know, a lot of years.

Speaker 5 In the four plus decades since Carla's murder, he'd made that move to Alaska, married, had three kids, earned an engineering degree, moved back to Texas, divorced, and became a grandfather.

Speaker 24 I've had fun. I've had some good times.
I've had vacations with my family.

Speaker 15 I've had...

Speaker 24 I've had a decent life considering all of this.

Speaker 5 He even got back in touch with Carla's family and friends. It was a life come full circle.

Speaker 5 Here he was again in 2019, back in Texas, facing another set of cold case detectives, eager to speak with him.

Speaker 5 Tell me about when Leah and Jeff start again with fresh eyes, you know, and they contact you because you're, you know, one of the people on their list of potential suspects.

Speaker 5 I thought it was great.

Speaker 24 And anytime anybody's come to interview me for this,

Speaker 4 I'm for it.

Speaker 5 I don't care.

Speaker 8 We thank you for coming in to talk to us today. I know that you've talked to people in the past.

Speaker 5 It's true, Rodney had always cooperated before.

Speaker 5 This time, he didn't seem exactly thrilled to talk.

Speaker 8 He was hesitant quite a bit. Like, how many times did you have to reschedule?

Speaker 13 It was a couple of times even for us to get an interview with Rodney. I appreciate you coming to talk to us.

Speaker 8 I know that this has been a big chunk of your life in the past, and I appreciate you working with us right now.

Speaker 8 Big chunk of my life forever. When he walked in, he just looked defeated.
You could tell what kind of a toll it had taken on him.

Speaker 44 Very stressed.

Speaker 8 And he was very nervous when he was speaking to us. I was totally paralyzed.
It was like...

Speaker 8 A concussion.

Speaker 8 You know, just totally, everything was ringing and

Speaker 8 blood. I couldn't even see.
There was so much blood.

Speaker 5 Even though Rodney seemed emotional 46 years later, detectives couldn't shake the feeling that they might be sitting across from Carla's killer after all.

Speaker 5 Except, a feeling is not a reason to arrest someone. What do you think should happen to the person that did this to Carla? They should be in prison the rest of their life.

Speaker 5 No chance for parole.

Speaker 5 Despite investigators' suspicions, there was no new evidence linking Rodney to any crime. So he was free to go.

Speaker 5 Hey, good luck, guys.

Speaker 5 Yes. Good luck.

Speaker 5 I hope y'all get some good luck.

Speaker 5 Detectives kept methodically working the case, combing through evidence, interviewing more people.

Speaker 5 And then some unexpected help arrived from a TV show.

Speaker 5 Why'd you choose the Carla Walker case?

Speaker 9 Well, as I was looking at cases in order to be able to assist agencies, the Carla Walker case was brought to my attention.

Speaker 5 Paul Holes is something of a legend in crime-fighting circles.

Speaker 5 As a sheriff's investigator, he helped find the man who killed at least a dozen people in California a generation ago, a man known as the Golden State Killer.

Speaker 5 Paul's retired from law enforcement and is now an author, a consultant, and a true crime TV personality.

Speaker 5 This show on oxygen had an episode on the Carla Walker case. Must be Leah.
I am.

Speaker 9 Very nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.
Hi, Paul.

Speaker 4 Jeff.

Speaker 5 Holes is an expert in genealogical DNA, which can identify suspects through their relatives. It wasn't available back in 2005.

Speaker 5 It's also expensive, so the producers of his program provided $18,000 to help cover the cost.

Speaker 5 Detectives sent Carla's dress and for for the first time all the rest of her clothing to a lab in California.

Speaker 8 That actually allowed for us to look for DNA in other spots than DNA had originally been found.

Speaker 5 And here's why Wagner and Bennett will be eternally grateful to those first crime scene investigators who did their work back in 1974.

Speaker 5 They packaged the evidence so carefully that 21st century lab techs were able to find something new. Not on Carla's dress, but on the strap of her bra.

Speaker 5 A perfectly preserved single sperm cell.

Speaker 5 It was a single source sample, just pure that guy right there on her bra strap. From that, the lab developed a full male profile.
and checked that against some of the DNA samples police had gathered.

Speaker 5 No match. They uploaded the sample to the National DNA Database.
No hit.

Speaker 9 And then it was like, genealogy, this is easy. Let's get this sample to a genealogy testing lab and start using investigative genealogy to identify who this male is.

Speaker 5 In other words, if they couldn't pinpoint the killer, maybe they could find his relatives. Holes suggested detectives send the sample to a genealogical lab he'd had success with on other cases.

Speaker 5 Now, anytime you test a DNA sample, part of it gets used up. In this case, the sample was so small, the lab used up all of it and then

Speaker 5 struck out on finding a link. So now you don't have a suspect and the sample's gone.
Your gold mine is dried up.

Speaker 9 The gold mine is gone. I was crushed.

Speaker 5 I was like,

Speaker 5 did we just kill this case?

Speaker 9 I've let the family down.

Speaker 5 I've let Carla down.

Speaker 5 It was a major setback, to be sure.

Speaker 5 But detectives held on to a gut feeling they would solve this case.

Speaker 8 Each time we hit a wall, a door opened.

Speaker 5 And that next doorway led to a big break. We specifically focus on cases that have already failed other methods.
Cutting-edge technology was about to solve Carla's case.

Speaker 5 Coming up, I said, I'd like a chance to relook at that evidence. A new sample, a new lab, and bullseye.

Speaker 13 I was hearing something that detectives had been wanting to hear for the last 46 years.

Speaker 33 Hi there, it's Andy Richter, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, The Three Questions with Andy Richter.

Speaker 34 Each week, I invite friends, comedians, actors, and musicians to discuss these three questions.

Speaker 21 Where do you come from? Where are you going? And what have you learned?

Speaker 35 New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like Julie Bo and Ted Danson, Tig Nataro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers, and more.

Speaker 33 You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter call-in show episodes where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating disasters, bad teachers, and lots more.

Speaker 38 Listen to the three questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 5 Detectives had not found a match to that unknown male profile. Not to any of the men they'd interviewed, and not to anyone in the national database.

Speaker 5 That sample had been completely used up, so now they had one last card to play. Lab techs had found another infinitesimal spot of DNA on the bra strap.
It was degraded and not a pure sample.

Speaker 9 One of those stains was predominantly the male DNA, but it also had Carla mixed in.

Speaker 5 Paul Holes says a sample like that would normally be untestable. Then he heard from this man, who'd seen Holes' episode, about Carla Walker.

Speaker 5 Paul told me that, unfortunately, there were no leads generated.

Speaker 5 David Middleman is the CEO of Othrum Labs. So I told him, I said, I'd like a chance to relook at that evidence.

Speaker 5 Middleman says his techs can use even tiny samples of degraded DNA to build a complete profile.

Speaker 5 Once we can build a DNA profile at Offrum, because there's so much more information in that profile, we can do a lot of interesting things, including genealogical search.

Speaker 5 Holes put Middleman in touch with Fort Worth detectives.

Speaker 1 And we were really impressed with the lab.

Speaker 5 Paul Holes started to feel a little better.

Speaker 9 If Dr. Middleman is saying that he thinks that he can get a good genealogy profile, this case could be solved.
But this is the last gasp.

Speaker 9 You know, if we consume this sample, there isn't going to be a solution to this case.

Speaker 5 In May of 2020, detectives decided to roll the dice. They sent their tiny, precious DNA sample to Othrum Labs outside Houston.

Speaker 5 We got to work on it, and five weeks later, my lab director, he calls me and he says, I think I already have an answer. And I was like, this is amazing.

Speaker 5 We have to call Jeff and let him know. I got a phone call on the morning of July 4th.

Speaker 5 Authorum scientists had used the DNA to come up with a full profile and then use genealogical mapping to find a family name. The family name was McCurley.

Speaker 5 And as soon as we told him the surname, he stopped us and I hear him ruffling. And next thing you know, he's in the notes.
He immediately recognizes the name. So he's like, memorize this case file.

Speaker 7 I said, I know that name.

Speaker 13 So I looked at the suspect list and Glenn Samuel McCurley is number 22. And I asked David, I said, is it Glenn Samuel McCurley?

Speaker 13 And he goes, we're down to Glenn Samuel McCurley, but he died in 1972 and your offense is 1974.

Speaker 13 And I asked him, I said, well, did he have a son that was a Glenn Samuel McCurley Jr.?

Speaker 7 He said, I don't know.

Speaker 13 Let me call you back.

Speaker 5 About an hour later, Bennett got another phone call. This one one would make his Independence Day light out brighter than any fireworks display.

Speaker 13 He said, bingo, we've got a Glenn Samuel McCurley Jr. and he had two brothers, and both of those brothers were not living in Texas at the time, but Glenn Jr.
was in fact living in Fort Worth in 1974.

Speaker 5 And he was one of your suspects.

Speaker 44 He was one of our suspects.

Speaker 5 Interviewed early on because he'd owned a Ruger 22.

Speaker 5 Remember, back in 1974, police had found the magazine from a Ruger pistol in the parking lot where Carla was taken.

Speaker 5 McCurley told police his Ruger had been stolen, and he was cleared because he passed a police polygraph. It's one more example of why polygraphs aren't normally admissible in court.

Speaker 5 Sometimes they get to the truth, but often enough, they do not.

Speaker 5 Glenn McCurley was the suspect police had sought. since 1974.

Speaker 13 I knew that I was hearing something that that detectives had been wanting to hear for the last 46 years. So I immediately called Leah

Speaker 13 and I told her, now we just need to prove this up.

Speaker 8 We researched where he was currently residing and it happened to still be in Fort Worth, only a couple miles away from the bowling alley.

Speaker 8 And so what we decided to do was have an officer go out there and talk with the residents of the house.

Speaker 48 You miss McCurley. Hi.

Speaker 5 The officer wore a body cam and pretended he was conducting a welfare check in the neighborhood.

Speaker 48 Mr. McCurley, he's in the back.

Speaker 5 And then, there he was.

Speaker 48 Mr. McCurley, I hang her at the gangtan.

Speaker 5 And you think to yourself, oh yeah, you did.

Speaker 14 Yes, you did.

Speaker 30 Coming up.

Speaker 45 We are here to discuss the murder of this young lady.

Speaker 18 Glenn McCurley under fire and detectives under pressure.

Speaker 3 Can they get the proof they need?

Speaker 8 Can we pick out some select items that we believe would yield DNA?

Speaker 18 A hunt for treasure in the trash when dateline continues.

Speaker 48 Come out of the rain. Hey, they sent us out here.

Speaker 5 The officer was smooth and downright folksy as he talked with Glenn McCurley about a parking violation.

Speaker 48 Somebody mentioned the van in the front yard it can't be parked in the grass, so it's really hurting to me.

Speaker 5 McCurley seemed to have no clue. He told the officer he'd lived in Fort Worth since the 70s and had been a long-haul trucker, among other jobs.
He waxed on about his retirement plans.

Speaker 48 Where would you want to go? This is a good town.

Speaker 5 I wanted to go to a big lake somewhere.

Speaker 48 Fish rest my life.

Speaker 5 In reality, the officer was the one doing the fishing. And Glenn McCurley was about to be reeled in.

Speaker 48 Y'all need anything, let us know.

Speaker 5 Once they left McCurley's home, police planned a quiet return after dark.

Speaker 8 We have some of those officers go out and do a trash run that night, and we pick out some select items that we believe would yield DNA.

Speaker 5 They sent it all off to the lab, and about two weeks later, a lab tech called.

Speaker 8 She says, I have a match.

Speaker 5 What's the item that gives you his profile?

Speaker 8 A McDonald's straw.

Speaker 5 Fast food had led detectives to a suspect they'd been seeking for more than four decades. Except, they'd have to wait a little longer.
To make a case in court, they had to be absolutely sure.

Speaker 5 So they returned to the McCurley home with an audio recorder.

Speaker 42 11 a.m.

Speaker 5 9, 10 of 20.

Speaker 5 And this time, they mentioned Carla Walker.

Speaker 8 Back in 1974, there was a young lady that got kidnapped from the bowling alley. After our conversation, we said, you know, would you mind giving us a sample of your DNA?

Speaker 8 In order for us to eliminate you, the quickest way to do that is to get your DNA.

Speaker 8 And he tells us, well,

Speaker 8 they did that back then.

Speaker 5 I think they've already gone through all that. If Mr.
McCurley was reluctant, Mrs. McCurley was surprisingly helpful.

Speaker 8 And his wife pipes up and says, no, they didn't, honey. They didn't have DNA back then.

Speaker 8 They didn't even do that back then.

Speaker 11 And he looked at her with a sideways look like, you're not helping me here.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Correct.

Speaker 13 We also asked him what he was doing the week that Carla was abducted. And he stated, well, my wife doesn't drive, so I'm sure I was driving her to her job.

Speaker 5 Here, I'm with her her part of the time.

Speaker 5 And then, even 46 years later, Mrs. McCurley recalled for police how she wasn't with her husband at all that weekend.
No,

Speaker 5 I'd gone to Midland.

Speaker 8 My daddy, my parents still lived in Midland.

Speaker 5 You should have thought about deputizing Mrs. McCurley.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 5 In the end, Glenn McCurley volunteered a DNA sample.

Speaker 8 Did you not mind opening your mouth?

Speaker 5 We'll save you the suspense. It matched the DNA taken from the bra strap.
And now detectives knew they had their man.

Speaker 5 So on September 21st, 2020, they arrested Glenn McCurley for the murder of Carla Walker.

Speaker 45 Hi, do you remember us? I do.

Speaker 45 Okay, I'm Detective Wagner, and this is Detective Bennett. And

Speaker 45 we are here to discuss the murder of this young lady. I've never seen her before.
I don't know who she is. What's her name? Carla Walker.

Speaker 5 After more than an hour of gentle yet persistent questioning, just start from the beginning, they got what investigators had waited for across the decades. I did do it, I guess.

Speaker 5 Can you tell us what happened?

Speaker 5 McCurley was 31 then. Remember that sketch police drew after Rodney's hypnosis? He said he was drunk that night, looking for a victim.

Speaker 5 He admitted pistol whipping Rodney and taking Carla, but wouldn't admit to raping her. He just said they had sex.

Speaker 45 How did you kill her?

Speaker 5 One more thing. Remember the Ruger pistol he claimed was stolen? Once he confessed, McCurley admitted he still had the gun, squirreled away at his house.

Speaker 13 We recovered the weapon from exactly where he had stated that it was placed.

Speaker 5 Jim Walker remembers hearing the news.

Speaker 12 Can't even tell you, just elation.

Speaker 5 Glenn McCurley was not a name you'd heard before.

Speaker 13 No.

Speaker 5 Jim texted his sister Cindy, who was driving with some friends.

Speaker 8 And so I just asked my friend, I handed her my phone. I says,

Speaker 8 what's that text saying? She says, we got him.

Speaker 5 Her sister's killer had been living right down the street.

Speaker 8 A mile and a half from my parents' house. Had to drive by my parents' house.
I bet you a thousand times.

Speaker 5 Jim called someone else that morning, Rodney McCoy.

Speaker 12 I say, buddy, you'll hear something? We got him.

Speaker 12 He goes, oh, my God, we got him.

Speaker 5 In this interview, we've been framing you through the camera kind of close. And that's because sometimes we do that to disguise whether somebody is actually incarcerated when we're talking with them.

Speaker 5 But of course, as we can see from the wider shot, you are not incarcerated. You have never been charged with anything.
Arresting and charging Glenn McCurley has two effects.

Speaker 5 One is it arrests and charges someone for that murder. And second, it isn't you.

Speaker 19 Yes, that's true.

Speaker 14 Thank you.

Speaker 23 I had doubts that this day would come.

Speaker 10 I really did.

Speaker 5 And that nobody would ever really know.

Speaker 24 Nobody would know.

Speaker 24 And that suspicion would just linger with me to my dying day.

Speaker 5 64-year-old Rodney McCoy had been telling the truth all along. He'd lived with suspicion since he was 18.
That truth, he was a victim himself.

Speaker 5 And now, everyone knew it.

Speaker 31 I wake up every day.

Speaker 23 I feel liberated.

Speaker 20 I feel so liberated.

Speaker 5 Glenn McCurley would not go easily. Despite his confession, he pleaded not guilty.
Prosecutors Kim Davignon and Emily Dixon were happy to take the case to trial.

Speaker 8 I have a hobby beyond my job, I guess, of just reading up on cold cases. I always thought they were interesting.
I guess that's partly why I became a prosecutor.

Speaker 8 You know, it's one of those cases that it has kind of a local lore to it. It was a, but this could happen to you because it happened to Carla Walker kind of feel.

Speaker 5 Rodney was their first witness.

Speaker 5 When I saw her, I smiled.

Speaker 32 She smiled.

Speaker 5 And I did love her.

Speaker 5 What was it like to testify and see him?

Speaker 24 When I first got in there, I didn't even notice him.

Speaker 5 I was pretty...

Speaker 10 I had a lot of anxiety.

Speaker 5 Rodney says he'd waited 47 years for this moment.

Speaker 8 His testimony to me, there's no better way to describe it other than it was, it transformed you back to 1974.

Speaker 5 Carla turned her face to me

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 I can I can visualize and said Rodney go get dad go get my dad it was a very impactful moment the courtroom was completely silent the case moved on DNA experts testified as did detectives old and new.

Speaker 5 Prosecutors were about to wrap up. Soon, McCurley's attorneys would mount his defense.

Speaker 5 This is normally the time for answers.

Speaker 5 It's not usually the time to hear questions that have never before been asked.

Speaker 30 Coming up.

Speaker 8 You just felt the whole room fill with emotion.

Speaker 3 The moment that stops the trial cold and a bone-chilling question.

Speaker 5 Was Carla Walker the only victim?

Speaker 45 Is there another girl that he might have done this to as well?

Speaker 5 Glenn McCurley was on trial for the murder of Carla Walker 47 years earlier. One of the last things prosecutors did was play his confession in court.

Speaker 5 Maybe that's when McCurley knew he was cooked. On day three of the trial, before his lawyer was able to even present a defense, McCurley gave up.

Speaker 49 On count two of the indictment, which is a charge of capital murder. To that, you may plead guilty or not guilty.
What is your plea?

Speaker 5 McCurley was sentenced to life in prison.

Speaker 8 I will never forget that moment, just watching everybody crying and hugging, and you just felt the whole room fill with emotion.

Speaker 5 And Carla's brother Jim comforted Glenn McCurley's son.

Speaker 12 His heart was broken. His soul was broken, I could tell.

Speaker 5 You hugged the son of the man who killed your sister? I did.

Speaker 12 That's what forgiveness is all about.

Speaker 5 You're a better guy than I am.

Speaker 12 Remember, it took me 45 years to get here.

Speaker 5 Now, there were some things the jury wasn't allowed to hear from that police interview. Okay, that jump in the tape? There was material the judge ruled the jury couldn't see.

Speaker 5 And what was left out of the trial might just be key to getting more files off the shelves of that cold case room.

Speaker 5 Here's what was missing.

Speaker 45 What was the reason you selected the spot that you did to place her body? It was against the building down there.

Speaker 45 I think that's where I left her.

Speaker 45 Wasn't against the building.

Speaker 5 There's no building there.

Speaker 5 No, there's not.

Speaker 13 So again, asked him, why did you select the spot you did to place Carla's body? And he again repeats pretty much the same story.

Speaker 5 Detectives wondered: did McCurley just have it wrong? Or could this mean he'd committed another murder and was confusing the details?

Speaker 45 Could that possibly be

Speaker 45 somebody else that you did this to? Is there another

Speaker 45 girl that you might have done this to as well? No.

Speaker 45 I did wasn't that drunk.

Speaker 45 I ain't that drunk.

Speaker 5 I didn't do it two times.

Speaker 44 Are you sure?

Speaker 44 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Pretty sure.

Speaker 46 Pretty sure.

Speaker 45 It doesn't sound too sure.

Speaker 5 That's got to give you chills.

Speaker 13 We start looking at other cases and how these girls were abducted and how they were killed.

Speaker 5 This was not a complete surprise to Jim Minter. Even back in 1974, down in the culvert where they found Carla, Minter had a strong feeling this was not the killer's first time.

Speaker 23 We had a previous case, Becky Martin's case.

Speaker 10 Becky Martin had been abducted almost exactly a year before this one.

Speaker 15 And then later we found her remains in a culvert in the same general area as this.

Speaker 5 21-year-old Becky Martin was abducted in the parking lot of her junior college. Her body was found weeks later.
Jeff Bennett took us out to the scene.

Speaker 13 You know, it's a really surreal feeling when you come out to a scene like this, and it definitely makes you want to work harder to get these cases solved.

Speaker 5 Wagner and Bennett say Glenn McCurley is a person of interest in the Becky Martin case and at least two others, Christy Towers in 1983 and Angela Ewart from 1984.

Speaker 5 Both young women snatched from their cars, strangled, raped, murdered. And police are still asking the question, did McCurley leave some other victim by a building?

Speaker 5 That question and many others may never be answered.

Speaker 5 McCurley declined our request for an interview, and in July of 2023, Just as detectives were preparing to interview him again, McCurley died in prison.

Speaker 5 Justice may never come for those other families, but at least Carla's family finally had what they've been seeking for so long.

Speaker 50 We love you, sis. I told you,

Speaker 5 we wouldn't give up.

Speaker 50 We know you've been in a better place, but now we're healing.

Speaker 5 Here on Earth, Rodney McCoy is in a better place too.

Speaker 5 You still dream about her.

Speaker 19 It's sporadic.

Speaker 24 It's like I can't touch her.

Speaker 27 I wake up from that dream and it's like, wow, I cannot touch her.

Speaker 20 That hurts. And yeah,

Speaker 32 she's still here.

Speaker 5 And so are his friends.

Speaker 5 Once the star quarterback, he's happy to be finally out of the spotlight. Good job!

Speaker 5 And again,

Speaker 5 back on the sidelines.

Speaker 28 That's all for this edition of Dateline. We'll see you again next Friday at 9-8 Central.
And of course, I'll see you each weeknight for NBC Nightly News.

Speaker 5 I'm Lester Holt for all of us at NBC News. Good night.

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