DNA at heart of Arizona trial. Aspiring model's killer fights to clear his name. Plus, Relisha Rudd.

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Speaker 5 Hey, good morning.

Speaker 6 You're listening in to the Dateline story meeting.

Speaker 5 We can go ahead and get started. Let's go.

Speaker 7 Let's go.

Speaker 6 Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news.

Speaker 8 So it sounds like you just snapped, too, right?

Speaker 6 This fraudulent insurance claim kind of hints at this double life.

Speaker 5 There's a Fibbet that actually shows a spike in a heartbeat and then it just goes flat.

Speaker 6 Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning.
It's November 6th, and here's what's on our docket.

Speaker 6 In Illinois, a convicted killer is fighting to clear his name and the names of his parents too.

Speaker 8 They said that there was nothing that links this family to the crime.

Speaker 6 In Dateline Roundup, Brian Koberger back in court, a verdict in the college professor murder trial, and updates in the Sandra Birchmore case.

Speaker 5 A new indictment claims that by killing Birchmore, he also caused the death of her unborn child.

Speaker 6 Plus, an eight-year-old girl went missing from a homeless shelter in 2014. A new documentary is looking for answers.

Speaker 9 We're hoping that someone with information can help us close this chapter in this missing person's case.

Speaker 6 But before all that, we're heading to an Arizona courthouse for the long-delayed murder trial of a man accused of killing a 31-year-old sales rep.

Speaker 6 A few days after Valentine's Day in 2015, Allison Feldman was found beaten to death in her Scottsdale, Arizona home.

Speaker 6 At first, detectives believed Allison's killer was someone she knew. They interviewed her boyfriend and one of her exes.

Speaker 6 They questioned a UPS driver who left her his phone number and checked out tips about her pharmacist.

Speaker 6 In total, they interviewed nearly 500 people and took the DNA of more than 70, but still the case went cold.

Speaker 6 Until three years later, in a stunning development, the police announced they'd arrested a man by the name of Ian Mitchum.

Speaker 6 He had no apparent connection to Allison, but they said cutting-edge DNA analysis proved Mitchum was the killer. Here's Allison's dad, Harley Feldman, talking to NBC affiliate News 12 in Phoenix.

Speaker 11 I want to make sure that he doesn't get away, that he's put away for hopefully the rest of his life.

Speaker 6 What Harley didn't know is that it would take another seven years for the case to go to trial.

Speaker 6 Mitchum pleaded not guilty, and his defense team challenged the legitimacy of the DNA all the way to Arizona's top court.

Speaker 6 Here to tell us more about the courtroom deadlock behind the delay and what we can expect when the trial starts next week is Dateline Field producer Brittany Morris. Hey, Brittany.

Speaker 12 Hi, Andrea.

Speaker 6 To start, take us back to what happened the day Allison was murdered.

Speaker 12 So it was a Wednesday,

Speaker 12 and she wasn't answering her phone. She wasn't responding to text messages.
This was very unlike her. So that afternoon, Allison Feldman's boyfriend decided to go check on on her.

Speaker 12 He let himself into her house and found Allison lying in a pool of blood. We later learned that she had been sexually assaulted and died from asphyxiation and blunt force trauma to the head.

Speaker 4 This is awful.

Speaker 6 Allison's brutal murder really puzzled investigators.

Speaker 12 It stumped them because

Speaker 12 Allison was loved by everyone that knew her. By all accounts from friends and family, she did not have any known enemies.

Speaker 6 Yeah, so let's talk about what kind of evidence, if any, was left behind

Speaker 6 that indicated who might have done this.

Speaker 12 So according to the probable cause affidavit, there were at least three separate sets of DNA found at the crime scene. There was Allison's DNA, her boyfriend's DNA, and one unknown DNA sample.

Speaker 12 And investigators told me that they ruled this boyfriend out as a suspect, but that did not happen immediately and decided to turn their attention to making an identification for that unknown DNA.

Speaker 6 So, Brittany, I'm assuming they put it into CODIS, which is a national DNA database.

Speaker 6 Did they get a match at all?

Speaker 12 No match.

Speaker 6 After that, investigators did something controversial.

Speaker 12 So, years into their investigation, police submitted that unknown DNA for what they call a familial test. At that time, it was a very new technique and it was only being used in 12 other states.

Speaker 12 Listeners might be wondering if it's the same technology as genetic genealogy. It's a little different than that.
Familial testing involves running DNA samples through government databases.

Speaker 12 So people who are already known to law enforcement. Genetic genealogy involves running those DNA samples through private databases.

Speaker 12 Anyway, that familial testing revealed that the unknown DNA likely came from a relative of a convict named Mark Mitchum. He was in prison here in Arizona for an unrelated offense.

Speaker 6 So investigators found that Mark had a brother named Ian, and he was actually arrested for a DUI just a couple miles from her home around the time of the murder.

Speaker 12 Yeah. And at that time, he consented to giving a blood sample.

Speaker 12 The Scottsdale Police Department Department decided to test that blood sample against the unknown male DNA found at Allison's home, and it was a match.

Speaker 12 Mitchum's arrest and how investigators identified him as their suspect was really big news in the Valley.

Speaker 10 We did the familial DNA search, which we have never been able to do before. This is the first one in the history of the state of Arizona.

Speaker 10 It's the first case ever submitted, and we were able to link it on the first time we tried it.

Speaker 12 Ian Mitchum, at the time of his arrest, told police he did not know Allison and said several times that he had never been in her home and did not know why his DNA was there.

Speaker 6 So, Brittany, then ahead of Ian Mitchum's murder trial, his defense team raised questions that would really have a big impact on this case.

Speaker 6 They asked if the state's DNA evidence was admissible in trial. What was their argument?

Speaker 12 That it was against Ian Mitchum's Fourth Amendment rights to use that DNA evidence at trial.

Speaker 12 The defense team said that the blood sample given during his DUI arrest should have been destroyed years before.

Speaker 12 The defense team also argued he had not consented to his 2015 DNA sample being used in that way.

Speaker 6 The prosecution hit its first major roadblock when the trial judge agreed with the defense.

Speaker 12 Yeah. The judge ruled the state could not use their DNA evidence.
An appeals court later overturned that ruling in 2023. And then the Arizona Supreme Court agreed.

Speaker 12 They said while police did violate Mitchum's rights, the DNA evidence could still be used in a trial.

Speaker 6 And the poor family, friends, you know, all these delays. It's been 10 years since Allison's murder.

Speaker 12 Yes, a devastating amount of time. And what's so incredible is their strength.
Allison's dad, Harley, is in the courtroom for every single hearing.

Speaker 6 All right. So finally,

Speaker 6 Ian Mitchum heads to trial next week. Court documents, you know, they're giving a preview really of what the defense's strategy will be.

Speaker 12 That's right. We learned that Mitchum's defense team is pointing a finger at a person police pursued as a potential lead during the murder investigation.

Speaker 12 This person was Allison's pharmacist and made comments that implicated him in the homicide. He viewed Allison's dating profile and lived near her.

Speaker 6 And the man being implicated by the defense, has he made any comments?

Speaker 12 So as of now, Dateline has not spoken with this person, but he was in court last week with his attorney, and his attorney told the court his client plans on fleeting the fifth.

Speaker 6 Okay, Brittany, thank you. So many moving pieces still in this case as the trial finally gets underway.
Thank you so much for bringing us the latest from the courtroom in Arizona.

Speaker 12 You are so welcome. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 6 Coming up, a man who was convicted, along with his parents, of murdering his ex-wife is fighting to clear their names.

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Speaker 6 On September 27th, 1996, police found an abandoned car on the side of Interstate 72 in central Illinois.

Speaker 6 The engine was running, the headlights were on, but the car's driver, 23-year-old Karen Hearn Slover, was nowhere to be found.

Speaker 6 A few days later, in a lake miles away, a boater made a horrifying discovery. A garbage bag containing a body part.
Law enforcement soon found more bags and more body parts nearby. It was Karen.

Speaker 6 A years-long investigation led to the arrests of Karen's ex-husband, Michael Slover Jr., as well as both of his parents. In 2002, a jury found them all guilty of Karen's murder.

Speaker 6 But now, almost three decades since Karen's death, the case is back in court with bombshell new evidence that could turn this case on its head.

Speaker 6 Here to bring us up to speed is Karen Isert, an anchor with NBC-owned station WAND in Decatur, Illinois. Thanks for coming on the podcast, Karen.

Speaker 8 Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 6 Let's just start by telling us a little bit more about the victim in this case, Karen Hearn Slover.

Speaker 8 She was an aspiring model. Her friends described her as beautiful inside and out.

Speaker 8 And she just got a divorce from her husband, Michael Slover Jr. They had a three-year-old son, Colton, at the time.

Speaker 6 Okay, so as we said, the mystery begins on September 27th, 1996, when police found a car on the side of a highway.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 So Karen was last seen leaving work at the Herald and Review, which is a local newspaper in Decatur. She worked in advertising there, and And that was the last time anybody had seen her.

Speaker 8 But her car was found and the car belonged to David Swan, her boyfriend. And he had told police that she had had some car issues.
And so he had lent her his vehicle.

Speaker 6 We mentioned the gruesome discovery of Karen's dismembered body days later. Where does the investigation go from there?

Speaker 8 Yeah, so now it's why did this happen?

Speaker 8 Who did this? Investigators obviously looked at her boyfriend, David Swan. They checked him out.
He had an alibi at the time that all of this was unfolding on the 27th.

Speaker 8 And so then it started to asking people around town. Well, there was a story that had been told that three people in Decatur had kind of claimed that they knew the details of what happened to Karen.

Speaker 8 And so police obviously looked at these three people closely as well, but ruled them out. So what comes next is the ex-husband.

Speaker 6 What did the police learn about the relationship between Karen and her ex-husband?

Speaker 8 Yeah, so friends had described that their relationship was just a little rocky. And now they're divorced and they have their son Colton.
And so there became issues with the custody over Colton.

Speaker 8 Karen had an opportunity to go out of state to model. And that obviously threw a wrench in this custody issue.

Speaker 6 Police don't just look at Michael Jr.

Speaker 6 They go a step further and not something you hear every day. They start looking into Michael's parents, Michael Sr.
and Jeanette.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 And what I really thought was very interesting in the case was they looked closely at the business that Michael Sr.

Speaker 8 owned, and they had noticed that there were certain concrete cinders is how I would describe them that they noticed was on the property.

Speaker 8 But they also found those same cinders in the car that Karen was last seen in. They also saw it in the plastic bags that Karen's body parts were in as well.

Speaker 8 So they really wanted to take a look at the Miracle Motors property that Michael Sr. owned.
And they were able to dig up dirt.

Speaker 8 They have these five-gallon buckets, and in those buckets, they end up finding buttons. And they looked closely at the brand.

Speaker 8 They looked closely at, you know, is this exactly the button that it is of the jeans that she would wear? And it was.

Speaker 6 Wow. So finally, three years after Karen's death, authorities charged Karen's ex-husband, Michael Slover Jr., and both of of his parents with Karen's murder.

Speaker 6 All three Slovers were found guilty after a five-week trial. Michael Sr., Michael Jr.
sentenced to 65 years each. Jeanette got 60 years.

Speaker 6 Things seemed pretty set, but now this case is back in the news all over again.

Speaker 8 Well, yeah, the Slovers have always maintained their innocence, and they have been fighting to appeal their conviction since their sentencing date.

Speaker 8 The Illinois Innocence Project stepped in, and about 10 years ago, they were able to get a judge to grant them more DNA testing on evidence that was collected from the crime scene.

Speaker 8 And that's where we are now because the Innocence Project has claimed that they have found two profiles on the duct tape that was wrapped over those plastic bags that Karen's body was found in.

Speaker 8 And they say that that DNA profile on that duct tape does not link the Slovers to it. They say one of them is a female.
It's not Jeanette's.

Speaker 8 And then they also claim that there was a fingerprint found in blood on the railing of the bridge where

Speaker 8 she was found. They say that that was a DNA profile that does not link the Slover family as well.
The Innocence Project has claimed that this was almost like a botched investigation.

Speaker 8 They said that there was no eyewitnesses, there was no weapon, there was nothing that links this family to the crime.

Speaker 6 We should say that the police and the prosecutor stand by their original investigation and still believe the Slovers murdered Karen. So what happens now with the DNA samples?

Speaker 6 We know, of course, that there's COTIS. I would imagine that the Illinois Innocence Project wants this to be run through that.

Speaker 8 Right. So CODIS for Illinois is actually run by the Illinois State Police.
The Illinois State Police are saying you cannot put this DNA that you have collected into the system.

Speaker 11 Why?

Speaker 8 Well, yeah, their reasoning is we don't know how you got it. We don't know where you obtained this.

Speaker 8 And so for them, they think it would jeopardize almost the entire database by just entering in this, as they say, a random evidence into their database, into their system that they have to manage.

Speaker 6 All right. So, Karen, there was a hearing last week in this case to discuss this new DNA.
What happened?

Speaker 8 So, basically, what they've done is the Illinois Innocence Project says that it has an expert that can prove that this DNA was collected correctly and that it needs to be submitted into CODIS.

Speaker 8 The AG's office, representing the Illinois State Police saying, no, no, this can't go into our system.

Speaker 8 So now in the new year, we're going to have a hearing where these experts are going to testify in front of a judge to decide if this DNA goes into the system.

Speaker 6 Okay, so, I mean, here's yet another crazy element to this story: that Michael Slover Jr.,

Speaker 6 he's out of prison, but his parents both died.

Speaker 8 Yeah, so

Speaker 8 Michael Sr. died in 2022 while serving his sentence.
Jeanette actually died earlier this year. And so when I asked the Illinois Innocence Project, you know, Michael Jr.

Speaker 8 is already on parole at this point. Why keep pushing? They say that this family is innocent.
And so they're going to keep pushing no matter what to try to overturn this conviction.

Speaker 6 How do Karen's family and friends feel about this case being opened up again?

Speaker 8 We've been able to hear from a couple of her friends. and everyone just really wants this case to go to bed.

Speaker 8 They don't want to be insensitive in any way, but it's more or less like just let Karen Hearn Slover lie in peace.

Speaker 6 Yeah, thank you so much for bringing us all this insight into this case.

Speaker 8 Thank you so much.

Speaker 6 Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup.

Speaker 6 We've got updates in the Brian Koberger and Sandra Birchmore cases, plus a new quest for answers in the case of an eight-year-old who disappeared from a homeless shelter in Washington, D.C.

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Speaker 6 Welcome back to the show. For this week's roundup, we're joined by Dateline producer Mike Nardy.
Hey, Mike.

Speaker 5 Hey, Andrea.

Speaker 6 So this is a story I know well, of course, Mike.

Speaker 6 We're off to Massachusetts for an update in a case that I've been covering for more than a year now, the alleged murder of 23-year-old teacher's assistant Sandra Birchmore, a very disturbing case.

Speaker 6 Mike, just remind us of it.

Speaker 5 So Sandra was found dead in her apartment in February 2021. The local medical examiner ruled her death a suicide.

Speaker 5 But three years later, federal prosecutors charged a former police officer by the name of Matthew Farwell with murdering Sandra and staging the scene to look like a suicide.

Speaker 5 Prosecutors alleged he was trying to cover up a relationship with Sandra that started years ago when she was a minor and enrolled in a police explorers program at the Stoughton Police Department.

Speaker 5 He was one of the instructors.

Speaker 6 So Matthew Farwell has denied having sex with Sandra Birchmore when she was underage and has pleaded not guilty to the murder charge. But this week, the stakes seem to be getting higher for him.

Speaker 6 Farwell was hit with an additional criminal charge. What's that all about, Mike?

Speaker 5 So Sandra was pregnant at the time of her death, and Matthew Farwell has been charged with violating a federal law that protects unborn children.

Speaker 5 A new new indictment claims that by killing Birchmore, he also caused the death of her unborn child. So, if convicted, he'll face a mandatory life sentence.

Speaker 6 In this superseding indictment, we also learned that Sandra Birchmore was around eight to 10 weeks pregnant at the time of her murder. I know she was very excited about it.

Speaker 6 Farwell has yet to be arraigned for this additional charge, so no plea has been entered yet. But right now, his murder trial is scheduled for October 2026.

Speaker 5 Yep, and we'll have to wait and see if this additional charge impacts that trial's timing.

Speaker 6 Okay, so up next is Brian Koberger. He was back in court this week.
He's, of course, the man who pleaded guilty earlier this summer to killing four University of Idaho students.

Speaker 6 What is the latest with this case?

Speaker 5 So Koberger pled guilty to killing Kaylee Gonzalez, Madison Mogan, Ethan Chapin, and Zana Kernodle in their off-campus home back in 2022.

Speaker 5 He was back in court on Wednesday for a scheduled restitution hearing.

Speaker 6 In this hearing, an Ada County judge heard arguments about whether the convicted killer should pay for funeral urns that were recently purchased by the Gonsalves and Mogan families to carry the victim's ashes.

Speaker 5 Right. His defense team said Koberger has no income and no chance of making money anytime soon because of his four consecutive life sentences.

Speaker 6 The judge said he'll issue his ruling at a later date.

Speaker 6 Also this week, Mike, and for the first time publicly, we saw photos of some of the evidence that tied Koberger to the murder early on in the investigation.

Speaker 6 And I know one of those items was that K-bar or the knife, the knife sheath.

Speaker 5 Right, right.

Speaker 5 Idaho State Police released thousands of documents related to the Koberger investigation, including photos of that knife sheath you were talking about that Koberger left at the scene of the crime.

Speaker 6 Which is chilling when you actually see it.

Speaker 6 And finally, we have a verdict in the murder trial of Jorge Rueda Landeros, the man accused of murdering American university professor Sue Ann Markham.

Speaker 6 Mike, Lester talked about this trial in the podcast last week, but if you could just give everyone a quick recap.

Speaker 5 Sure. So 15 years ago, Sue Ann Markham was found dead inside her Bethesda, Maryland home.
She died as a result of blunt force trauma and asphyxiation.

Speaker 5 A year after her death, authorities issued a warrant for the arrest of her friend and business partner, who was hiding out in Mexico until his arrest in 2023.

Speaker 6 So prosecutors told the jury that Landeros had seduced Markham into handing over hundreds of thousands of dollars, taken out a life insurance policy on her, and then killed her.

Speaker 6 Take a listen to prosecutor Debbie Feinstein. When he met Sue, he had found a mark.

Speaker 6 He had found someone that was vulnerable to his charms. So Mike, after an eight-day trial, the jury came back with a verdict.
What did they decide?

Speaker 5 They found Landeros guilty of second-degree murder, which carries a maximum sentence of 30 years behind bars.

Speaker 6 When will Landeros be sentenced?

Speaker 5 His sentencing is scheduled for February 6th.

Speaker 6 Okay, Mike, thank you so much for all these updates.

Speaker 5 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 6 For our final story this week, we wanted to talk to two people who may be familiar to you from season one of our podcast series, Dateline Missing in America. Dereka and Natalie Wilson.

Speaker 6 They are the founders of the Black and Missing Foundation, an organization dedicated to shining a spotlight on cases involving missing people of color.

Speaker 9 If you are white, blonde-haired, blue-eyed, the world wants to jump in and help. And for missing women and young girls of color, even men, their cases are not taken seriously.

Speaker 6 Nearly 40% of missing persons in the U.S. are people of color, and black children make up about 33% of all missing child cases.

Speaker 6 But Dereka and Natalie are here today to talk about one case in particular: R-E-L-I-S-H-A.

Speaker 14 R-E-L-I-S-H-A.

Speaker 5 That's a nice name.

Speaker 11 How are you?

Speaker 12 Ape.

Speaker 6 That is the voice of Relicia Rudd talking in 2014 to someone from the charity, The Homeless Children's Playtime Project. She was living with her family in a Washington, D.C.

Speaker 6 homeless shelter at the time. Shortly after this interview was taped, Relicia went missing.
She was last seen with the shelter's janitor at a nearby motel.

Speaker 6 Last week, on what would have been her 20th birthday, the Black and Missing Foundation premiered a two-part documentary called The Vanishing of Relicia Rudd, a cold case re-examined.

Speaker 6 Dereka and Natalie are here to tell us why it was so important to them to tell her story. Thank you both so much for being here.

Speaker 9 Thank you for having us.

Speaker 7 Thank you.

Speaker 6 So before we get to Relicia's case, tell us more about your organization, the Black and Missing Foundation.

Speaker 9 We are the sole nonprofit organization that focuses primarily on missing people of color. My background is media relations to bring that visibility.

Speaker 9 Dereka's is law enforcement to get the resources needed from law enforcement so that we can get the community engaged.

Speaker 9 Many times we are the last resort for these families, and we have thousands of missing persons in our database, and they simply want answers as to what happened to their missing loved ones.

Speaker 6 Yeah. So, ladies, tell us about Relicia Rudd.
She was going to a local school in the DC area, an elementary school, and then she just stopped showing up.

Speaker 9 So yes, she lived in a shelter with her family and she was attending a local school.

Speaker 9 By the time she was declared missing, 18 days had passed since she was last spotted at school or the shelter where she lived.

Speaker 6 What does her mom say? Why did it take her mom so long to say why she wasn't attending school?

Speaker 7 Well, we actually haven't heard from her mother.

Speaker 7 The school, they are the ones that actually reported Relicia Relicia missing. They elevated it to law enforcement.

Speaker 6 Let's talk about this janitor, Khalil Tatum, who worked at the shelter. Relicia's mother allowed him to care for her on certain occasions.
How did this dynamic work?

Speaker 6 And why was he even in her life in any way beyond cleaning the shelter?

Speaker 7 There is a no-fragalization policy that was in place, however, that was violated because Khalil Tatum gave gifts to Relicia and her mother.

Speaker 7 We don't know why her mother felt so comfortable turning her over to him.

Speaker 6 The last sign of Relisha live, there's chilling security camera footage you show in the documentary of her walking down a motel hallway with Khalil Tatum.

Speaker 9 Yes. And the question that we have is, we see her going into the room, but we never see her coming out.

Speaker 9 Assistant Chief of Police, Diane Groom, said that that hotel was known for a lot of things and sex trafficking was one of them.

Speaker 6 So authorities started looking for Tatum and made a horrifying discovery.

Speaker 6 They found his wife shot dead in another motel and a few days later they found Tatum's body in a city park, but no sign of Relicia. NBC News 4 covered the story.

Speaker 6 The man wanted for kidnapping an eight-year-old girl and killing his wife is found dead.

Speaker 6 Police say Tatum killed himself in the same park where they've been searching for Relicia Rudd for the last five days.

Speaker 7 Actually, we were out there at Kiddenworth Park searching for Alicia when Tatum's body was found.

Speaker 7 Allegedly, a gunshot wound, self-inflicted. And so what we are hopeful is that when he passed away, that everything didn't go to the grave, right?

Speaker 7 We know. that someone out there knows something.

Speaker 7 There are so many people that was in that shelter.

Speaker 6 The Department of Justice has reported that children experiencing poverty and housing insecurity are more vulnerable to kidnapping or trafficking.

Speaker 6 You argue in your documentary that the social safety net in DC failed to protect Relicia.

Speaker 7 I mean, the fact that it took 18 days to even report her missing, but we would not have known about this case if that digital educator didn't bring it to everyone's attention that something just wasn't right.

Speaker 7 I think everyone can learn from that person. You know, see something, say something.

Speaker 6 Where can our listeners watch your documentary?

Speaker 9 So they can go to our YouTube channel. It's the Black and Missing Foundation YouTube.

Speaker 4 Okay, great.

Speaker 6 Derek and Natalie, thank you for sharing Relicia's story, but also for all the amazing work that both of you do and for helping so many families in many different ways.

Speaker 9 Thank you so much.

Speaker 7 Thank you so much.

Speaker 6 That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. To get ad-free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium.

Speaker 6 Coming up this Friday, a brand new story Dateline has been working on for years. The murder of Crystal Rogers, a mom of five, devastated her small Kentucky town.

Speaker 6 But her murder wasn't the first in Bardstown, and it wouldn't be the last. America's most beautiful small town.
Now, people are wondering what is going on here.

Speaker 6 Watch The Trouble in Bardstown at 9-8 Central on NBC.

Speaker 6 Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey.
Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kurloff. Production and fact-checking help by Audrey Abrahams.

Speaker 6 Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer.
Original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer.
And Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

Speaker 7 Okay, bye.

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