Talking Dateline: Poison Twist

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Speaker 5 Hi, everybody.

Speaker 6 I'm Josh Mankiewicz, and we're talking Dateline today with Andrea.

Speaker 8 Hi, Andrea. Hi, Josh.

Speaker 11 We are here to discuss Andrea's episode called Poison Twist.

Speaker 12 Now, if you have not seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed.

Speaker 14 So go there, listen to it.

Speaker 16 You can also watch it on Peacock and then come back here.

Speaker 6 Now, just to recap a little bit, this is about the death of a chiropractor named Mary Yoder back in 2015.

Speaker 19 That turned into a criminal investigation.

Speaker 14 It turned out she had been poisoned.

Speaker 9 And a very weird, anonymous letter eventually led them to a possible killer who was Mary's office manager, a woman named Caitlin Connolly, also known as Katie.

Speaker 5 And there's a new development, and it's turned all of this kind of upside down.

Speaker 22 And it's a great whodunit.

Speaker 17 So, for this talking dateline, we have an extra clip of Andrea's interview with Katie Connolly's latest attorney, Melissa Swartz.

Speaker 5 And later on, we'll be joined by our very own legal analyst, Danny Savalas, to answer one of your social media questions.

Speaker 6 So let's talk to Ayline.

Speaker 27 Katie Conley is no longer behind bars, and one kind of gets the sense that she might not be retried again.

Speaker 6 It sounds like trying her again is going to be a lot harder than trying her the first couple of times. Yeah.

Speaker 29 I was literally just thinking about that seconds before you said it, Josh, about will they go after Katie Conley again?

Speaker 13 No question, it's more difficult now that the cell phone evidence can't be used.

Speaker 29 Yeah, I mean, when it has your defendant searching for poison, I mean, that doesn't look good. Why are you searching for poison? Although they say that Adam had access to all of her electronics.

Speaker 29 But still, it's not something that you want a jury hearing if you're the defense.

Speaker 14 And, you know, if this is her being framed by Adam, which I'm not taking a position on, but if it is, it's one of the great frame-up jobs of all time.

Speaker 8 Yes.

Speaker 9 Yes.

Speaker 29 I mean, the one thing that's a little tricky is the poison being in his Jeep, and then he, you know, goes to the police department. I mean, I've wrestled with why would he keep that in his Jeep?

Speaker 29 You know, if you've killed your mom.

Speaker 15 Why would you keep it anywhere?

Speaker 2 Why would you not throw it out the window?

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 17 It's not like the colchisine is a gun or something you want to hang on to to use later.

Speaker 13 You know what I mean?

Speaker 21 It's not a possession of yours.

Speaker 20 It's the thing you gave somebody to kill them.

Speaker 14 You would not want to keep that with you, I would think.

Speaker 29 It seems to me that you would want to get rid of that as soon as possible.

Speaker 7 So the TV series House had an episode called Occam's Razor about somebody taking colchazine.

Speaker 6 It wasn't a murder plot.

Speaker 10 I think it was a

Speaker 17 pharmacy error.

Speaker 26 They took one drug instead of another,

Speaker 14 but colchazine poisoning was a feature of that episode.

Speaker 11 Do we know whether Katie ever saw that episode?

Speaker 5 Was she a fan of House?

Speaker 6 We don't know.

Speaker 29 I'm not aware of that question.

Speaker 13 And that didn't come up in court that you know of.

Speaker 29 Not that I remember.

Speaker 17 I checked after

Speaker 17 I heard about the colchicine in house, which was a 2004 episode.

Speaker 14 My cousin, John Mankowitz, was an executive producer of House that year.

Speaker 8 So he was probably one of the father.

Speaker 14 He was one of the writers of that. Yeah.

Speaker 29 And there you have it, folks.

Speaker 23 Full circle.

Speaker 29 Back to Josh Mankowitz. Yeah.

Speaker 8 There you go, folks.

Speaker 29 You know, most people use colchicine for gout.

Speaker 29 It's synthetic or it can come from the plant autumn crocus.

Speaker 29 So this was one of my favorite moments in all of my date lines was that this poison control woman, Gina Marafa, they had one sample left of blood. They were only able to do one more test.

Speaker 29 And this poison control expert made this call, you know, kind of let's try for colchicine. And lo and behold,

Speaker 29 it's positive for colchicine.

Speaker 29 And now, Josh, because colchicine has now been used in other murders,

Speaker 29 it is now in a lot of places on the standard talk screen, which it was not before. If they had not tested that blood, that one last sample for colchicine.

Speaker 22 It sounds like no one would ever have been tried for this.

Speaker 29 None of this would have, none of it. We can say none of this would have happened.
It was pretty remarkable.

Speaker 13 So let's talk about the evidence that remains against Katie.

Speaker 30 She is free on what sort of in, you know,

Speaker 31 normal parlance is a technicality, right? The search warrant wasn't done correctly.

Speaker 15 But the evidence that is eliminated from the search warrant is not at issue.

Speaker 10 It's not any question as to whether or not that phone was used to search for the poison.

Speaker 11 The question is, was she doing the searching or was somebody else doing the searching?

Speaker 9 It appears that way, yes.

Speaker 29 Right.

Speaker 26 Katie's DNA is on the bottle.

Speaker 29 Yes. Katie's DNA is on the bottle.
The explanation for that is that she handles everything in the office.

Speaker 29 So her DNA is on a lot of deliveries to the office.

Speaker 14 So the thing I kept thinking while I was watching this is,

Speaker 8 okay, it has to be her, but it can't be her, right?

Speaker 2 Because it doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 30 Like, why would she want to kill Mary?

Speaker 27 All of the possible motives.

Speaker 22 Like, removing Mary from Adam's life would make Adam come back to her.

Speaker 23 That's like out of some nutty movie.

Speaker 13 Any evidence that, like, you know, Mary was going to let Katie go?

Speaker 29 i didn't hear anything i i mean by all accounts everyone says that katie liked mary yeah i mean that's the weird thing i you know was it could it be revenge on adam because he broke up with her i'm gonna take your mom from you like

Speaker 29 they're outlandish motives i mean maybe not to the prosecution they're not but when you say them out loud they seem as we discussed a little hard to believe any i mean uh the abuse allegations that, you know,

Speaker 22 denied it, then kind of admitted it.

Speaker 18 I mean, did Mary even know about that?

Speaker 29 We don't know. I don't know.
I mean, that's another question. Did, did Mary know and she was upset with Katie? But Katie's still working there.
So how bad could it be?

Speaker 29 If she's still employed, I mean, wouldn't you fire her if?

Speaker 22 Yeah, so Mary couldn't have been that upset about it.

Speaker 15 Yeah. Right.

Speaker 29 She could just let her go if she was.

Speaker 29 upset with her.

Speaker 17 At the beginning of the episode, Mary shows up at her sister's house and she sort of is hinting that she has something to talk about.

Speaker 23 We're never going to know what that was.

Speaker 15 What do you think that was?

Speaker 29 Oh, my gosh, I don't know. I mean, some might speculate that she was going to talk about, you know, her husband and her sister, her other sister.

Speaker 15 I mean, it feels to me that that's more, that my husband is having an affair with my sister

Speaker 15 is more likely than my office manager is trying to kill me.

Speaker 29 Yeah, I know. The office managers trying to kill me doesn't seem like the conversation she would have had, but again, we don't know.

Speaker 12 When we get back, we will have that extra clip from Andrea's interview with Melissa Swartz, Katie Conley's latest attorney, and her very strong opinions about the previous defense teams.

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Speaker 20 In January of this year, Katie's conviction was overturned and she was released.

Speaker 29 And she went to McDonald's.

Speaker 2 Yeah, went to McDonald's.

Speaker 29 That's got her milkshake. Yeah.

Speaker 6 I think this is an important talking dateline question.

Speaker 8 If you'd been locked up for seven years, Andrea, what would your first meal be?

Speaker 23 Because I don't think it would be McDonald's.

Speaker 29 I mean, if you're on the road, Josh, you know, there's not going to be some fancy steakhouse to stuff at.

Speaker 31 On the road, there are no rules, as you know.

Speaker 29 But she had a long drive from Bedford Hills back to Utica. So, yeah, I would probably go to McDonald's if I'm in the car and I've, you know, got a long drive home.

Speaker 29 And then, and then I would love to have a home-cooked meal or, you know, somewhere really nice.

Speaker 32 Is McDonald's your fast food of choice?

Speaker 29 Oh, yeah, definitely. I love a medium diet coke and a hamburger hamburger and sometimes an ice cream cone.

Speaker 5 I tend to eat McDonald's only.

Speaker 10 It's always like a last resort because some other place that you wanted wasn't available or it's too late or you're exhausted or, you know, and in my case, like changing planes at DFW, right?

Speaker 13 Or O'Hare or somewhere and you know you're not getting in till really late.

Speaker 10 That's when the sirens call of the golden arches arrives.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 29 I was just there on assignment in

Speaker 29 eating McDonald's at night, you know, the glamorous life of a dateline correspondent.

Speaker 6 And the corollary to that is if I'm in certain places in the Midwest, it's Culver's. And if I'm in Texas, it's Whataburger because Whataburger is the greatest.

Speaker 9 All right. So

Speaker 8 one of the interesting things about this is that, you know,

Speaker 7 her conviction has been thrown out and she gets a new trial because

Speaker 31 of

Speaker 12 something that just about never happens, which is ineffective assistance of counsel.

Speaker 15 We have an audio question about that.

Speaker 8 Let's listen to that.

Speaker 33 Hi, Andrea.

Speaker 33 Estefin from Allentown, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 33 Just caught up with tonight's episode. It was great.
I was wondering, how often is ineffective counsel attributed to cases that you've covered through the years?

Speaker 26 I have covered one case in all my years at Dateline that I can recall in which that happened, in which somebody's conviction was thrown out in a new trial order.

Speaker 30 I mean, generally, the bar for that is so high.

Speaker 29 What's really interesting is that Melissa Swartz, the attorney that you mentioned, this is the second Dateline that I've done updates with her.

Speaker 29 She handles appeals, and some of our listeners may remember Remy Ramsaran

Speaker 29 in upstate New York. I do.

Speaker 29 He was accused of killing his wife. And he also

Speaker 29 was eligible for a new trial, didn't end up taking it.

Speaker 29 He took a plea, but

Speaker 29 that was also ineffective assistance of counsel. And I rarely give shout outs to attorneys, but I have to say, Melissa Swartz is,

Speaker 29 she is a really good attorney, and she's a fellow Canadian. And I...
picked up on her accent immediately during our interview. She was saying a boat and she's from Niagara Falls.

Speaker 29 Just having worked with her now on these couple of cases,

Speaker 29 it's so nice to see that in the justice system that

Speaker 29 people have such good representation. And she's one of those attorneys who's fighting for her clients, as so many do.

Speaker 8 Can you automatically instantly tell when somebody's Canadian?

Speaker 29 I feel like I have that radar. I mean, I can pick out anybody.
pretty much instantaneously. As soon as like, you know, I just need a few words, choice words, and then we're good.

Speaker 11 I know.

Speaker 26 This feels, by the way, like a social media contest that is upcoming right i can i can see this coming uh since we're talking about ineffective assistance of counsel let's listen to katie's latest attorney melissa schwartz because she has a lot to say about the previous attorneys on this case so let's listen to that what's that like when you're attacking or you know or questioning you know their

Speaker 29 their strategy and and you know who they are as attorneys i mean that they didn't do a good job what is that like when you when you bring them up?

Speaker 34 I always try to be very respectful. And it's,

Speaker 34 I always say this, it's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, right? It really is. It's easy for me to second guess somebody else's work.

Speaker 34 Both attorneys that I accused of being ineffective, good attorneys. I'm not saying they're not good attorneys.
I'm not saying, hey, never hire these attorneys ever again, right?

Speaker 34 They're both very experienced, very qualified attorneys. So I tried to be respectful respectful and kind of targeting what I thought that they fell short on.

Speaker 23 Yeah, well, I mean, I think she, I think she clearly did a great job because she, she triumphed in a way that like most attorneys do not.

Speaker 9 And those other two guys that came before her, I mean, if you can battle the prosecution to essentially a draw when

Speaker 7 the jury says we can't make a decision, that means you did a pretty good job.

Speaker 29 Yeah. And I thought Melissa,

Speaker 29 that was nice of her, you know, to not throw these attorneys under the bus. And remember, she, that's her job.
She picks apart cases. She's looking for any little thing to get someone off.

Speaker 29 So it's a different role that you're playing and it's a different perspective.

Speaker 23 So if you're Katie, you're going out into the world knowing that a large number of people think that you literally got away with murder.

Speaker 29 There will be those people. Her family has stuck by her.
They strongly believe she's innocent and also family members of Mary,

Speaker 9 sisters who believe that Katie's innocent.

Speaker 5 That's the interesting thing about this.

Speaker 22 I don't mean to dismiss Katie's parents, and I have no doubt that they actually do believe in their daughter's innocence, but

Speaker 27 parents almost never

Speaker 13 feel any other way. No one wants to admit they raised a monster or a killer.

Speaker 21 And this is true across the board.

Speaker 13 So that was less surprising to me than the fact that Mary's family was really sort of steadfast and still is.

Speaker 33 Yep.

Speaker 29 They don't believe Katie did this. You know, they're still pointing the finger, some people, at Mary's husband.

Speaker 29 People think he was having an affair with her sister, even though he says they didn't get together until after she died.

Speaker 29 But I don't think it's been totally put to bed for some people, you know, that he completely denies having anything to do with his wife's death police looked into the alleged affair and say bill's phone records appear to confirm his account um and wouldn't it have been very hard for him to give her the colchrazine in a in a in an appropriate time frame unless you believe that she got it like 12 hours earlier or something like that yeah because bill wasn't there right so he wasn't he wasn't there yeah they didn't have lunch together unless he slipped in and no one saw him but i don't think the office was that big if you so if you believe that this happened at lunchtime which is what the prosecution says, then it's pretty much got to be Katie.

Speaker 29 That timeline would fit better with Katie.

Speaker 23 Bill did not want to talk.

Speaker 7 We approached him. No.

Speaker 29 No,

Speaker 29 Bill nor the sister that he was with. I don't know if he's still with her.

Speaker 29 They declined to speak with us.

Speaker 2 Over the course of Katie's trials, both Adam and Bill ended up with transactional immunity

Speaker 12 because they testified in front of a grand jury.

Speaker 7 Now, for people who have committed crimes, transactional immunity can be this giant gift because what essentially is, it says, we will not prosecute you for anything you admit to in this, in this proceeding, in this session.

Speaker 18 So you better confess to everything because you will not be prosecuted for it under the law.

Speaker 29 Yeah, it was new to me.

Speaker 29 I always say, Josh, we learn something new every day on Dateline.

Speaker 23 So, you know, that suggests that Bill or Adam could not be charged, at least not based on whatever they said in the grand jury.

Speaker 30 But again, they didn't confess.

Speaker 27 I mean, neither one of them said, yeah, I did it.

Speaker 29 Yeah, no, you're right. It's, um,

Speaker 29 I think, I think the state was so confident that Katie is the killer that that probably doesn't bother them because they don't think that Adam or Bill are the killers, or one of them is the killer.

Speaker 29 So,

Speaker 29 you know, it's easy to give, I guess, immunity when you strongly believe what you believe because there are no plans to go after, as far as I know, to go after Adam or Bill.

Speaker 12 The question is going to be whether Katie gets tried again, not whether somebody else gets tried.

Speaker 29 Absolutely.

Speaker 27 Up next, you, and by you, I mean the home listener, had a lot to say about who you thought killed Mary Yoder and about the investigation and about everything that happened.

Speaker 7 We will be right back with your questions from social media.

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Speaker 29 Hey, welcome into Walgreens.

Speaker 8 Hi there. Hey.

Speaker 37 All right, hon.

Speaker 38 I'll grab the gift wrap, cards, and, oh, those stuffed animals the girls want.

Speaker 39 Great. And I'll grab the string lights and some.

Speaker 39 How about I grab some cough drops?

Speaker 36 This is not just a quick trip to Walgreens.

Speaker 38 I'm fine, honey.

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Speaker 8 Okay,

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 16 this is not my story.

Speaker 19 This is your story.

Speaker 22 But I got a tremendous amount of interest in your story on social media

Speaker 13 on Friday night.

Speaker 5 I mean, a lot of people ask me, like, what's going on here? What is this? Who is this?

Speaker 26 I'm like, you should be directing these questions to Andrea.

Speaker 23 Like, I'm actually not covering this.

Speaker 18 But

Speaker 15 a lot of people are very interested.

Speaker 5 Fred Hines on Facebook said, interesting show tonight.

Speaker 15 It's really hard to know who the real killer was, which is one reason this was such a great episode.

Speaker 6 I suppose it comes down to just three people, husband's, son, son's, girlfriend.

Speaker 26 If no one outside the family was involved, then it has to be one of those three.

Speaker 14 Those would appear to be the possible choices, although, as we've discussed, Adam or Bill were not charged.

Speaker 23 Yeah.

Speaker 29 I mean, they certainly make for good alternate suspects, you know, for defense attorneys.

Speaker 29 But again, the police and the prosecution felt that everything pointed in one direction, and that was at Katie based on the evidence.

Speaker 12 One of our questions from Offie32 concerns the search warrant that was thrown out.

Speaker 6 I understand that Katie won her hearing and her conviction was thrown out because of a flawed search warrant regarding her cell phone.

Speaker 30 Why can't law enforcement administer a new and legal search warrant for its contents?

Speaker 7 Evidence obtained illegally is still evidence.

Speaker 9 To help us answer that, here is NBC legal analyst Danny Savales.

Speaker 17 Thanks for joining us here on Talking Dateline.

Speaker 40 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 9 What's the answer to that?

Speaker 11 They can't just do it again like that.

Speaker 8 Well, they could.

Speaker 40 If they went back now and did it right, they could get that evidence the proper way.

Speaker 40 In theory, there's nothing really to prevent the obtaining the same evidence another way in a new trial.

Speaker 11 You mean if they got it by writing a different warrant for, like, let's say they write it for some other phone and they get it off that phone, for example.

Speaker 9 Right, exactly.

Speaker 29 Which would be really hard in this case, since it came off of Katie's phone.

Speaker 40 Right. I mean, so much of this evidence came from the cell phone that it likely just couldn't be found anywhere else unless it's communications with other people who might have those records as well.

Speaker 29 So if Katie texted the poison information to someone else, they could potentially then. look at that other person's phone and say this came from Katie's phone.
Right.

Speaker 12 Or if she mailed it to herself on her Gmail account on her computer or something like that.

Speaker 40 Exactly right. Or it could be searches, searches conducted on websites, which are in theory given to a third party.

Speaker 40 Almost everything that we do on our phones is us giving information to a third party.

Speaker 40 So while it may involve a lot more footwork by law enforcement, they often can get to that information through other means than the original cell phone if that cell phone isn't available.

Speaker 29 Danny, would it be too late then if they, let's say she searched the poison on a website, can they go to that website and say, can you see who was searching what IP addresses or what phones?

Speaker 29 I mean, would it be far too late for that since this was so long ago?

Speaker 40 The biggest barrier would now be time.

Speaker 40 It may be that companies or websites may not keep records that long to respond to a subpoena for that kind of information.

Speaker 40 But if they did, and if you can match up the IP address, which is a unique number assigned to everyone's internet browsing, then yes, you could potentially match that up.

Speaker 40 But even then, if you match the IP address, you sometimes get into the thorny question of, well, who else might have been using the computer or the phone at the time?

Speaker 29 And she alleges that Adam Yoder was using her devices. Yes.

Speaker 40 As soon as you match up the IP address, there really isn't much else for a defendant to do other than argue that, hey, this device of mine, laptop or cell phone, was like Grand Central Station.

Speaker 40 Everybody was using it all the time.

Speaker 29 Thanks, Danny.

Speaker 32 Danny, thanks so much.

Speaker 8 Thanks, guys.

Speaker 17 A lot of viewers had a difficult time watching Katie's latest attorney, Melissa, seeming so happy.

Speaker 5 She was happy because as an attorney, she'd won her case.

Speaker 18 A lot of people have difficulty with the idea that defense attorneys work to free people who are convicted of crimes, some of whom are not guilty and some of whom probably are.

Speaker 29 That's Melissa's role, and that's our justice system.

Speaker 10 And everybody deserves representation, and it makes the prosecution prove their case.

Speaker 7 They can't just say their case.

Speaker 28 They have to prove it.

Speaker 18 And you would want that, you, the viewer, if you were ever accused of anything.

Speaker 29 Absolutely. Remember, there are people who think Katie Conley is innocent.
So a lot of them. There's different perspectives on this one.
And,

Speaker 29 you know, yes, Melissa was happy she got Katie out. I mean, why wouldn't she be? That's that's her job.
But it doesn't mean that Melissa's celebrating death.

Speaker 29 It means Melissa's celebrating the release of a client. You know, so it's they're very two different things.

Speaker 16 So

Speaker 17 there's a question of how messy

Speaker 7 Adam's Jeep was.

Speaker 11 You know, if Adam was innocent, this is

Speaker 20 Les G JV.

Speaker 22 Les G, one day you're going to be promoted to the varsity.

Speaker 7 Never doubt that.

Speaker 11 I'm not sure who did it, but if Adam was innocent, why was he so hesitant to let them search his Jeep?

Speaker 8 Well,

Speaker 8 he did let them.

Speaker 16 Yeah, also, if your Jeep looked like you were living in it, which it kind of almost did, Catherine Wilcox points out it was a pig style.

Speaker 26 Maybe that's why he was embarrassed.

Speaker 8 maybe.

Speaker 12 And finally, we come back to Katie's motive.

Speaker 19 Christy Michelle Bennett says, this one really has me baffled.

Speaker 26 Katie seems so sweet and innocent, but all the evidence points to her.

Speaker 18 What motive would she have had?

Speaker 7 And we talked about this.

Speaker 22 I can't think of a good motive for Katie. I can think of this convoluted idea that

Speaker 9 losing Mary might make Adam come back to her, which sort of happened in a kind of way, but it didn't last. And that feels like a lot to go through to get your boyfriend to notice you again.

Speaker 14 I mean,

Speaker 29 and the reality is prosecutors don't need a motive to bring someone on murder charges.

Speaker 32 So, no, but maybe the fact that they basically the fact that they got two hung juries almost

Speaker 11 might have something to do with the fact that they didn't have a really good motive.

Speaker 8 Right, right.

Speaker 29 Juries want motives. They want to understand why they're putting someone away potentially for the rest of their life.

Speaker 5 Congratulations, Andrea.

Speaker 14 I thought this was a great episode.

Speaker 29 Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's been a long time, this one, you know, 10 years.
So, and Kim Krawitz was the producer on this one. She did an amazing job.

Speaker 22 That's it for Talking Dateline for this week.

Speaker 12 Now, remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline or things we should cover, you can reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC.

Speaker 16 Now, if you have a question for Talking Dateline, you can record a message and send it to us on social media, or you can leave a voicemail at 212-413-5252.

Speaker 27 That's Keith's personal cell phone.

Speaker 29 How could you do that to Keith?

Speaker 5 Oh, it's easy.

Speaker 8 It's really very easy.

Speaker 11 Thanks for listening, everybody.

Speaker 25 We'll be off this Friday, but get ready for a whole lot of date line the next couple of months.

Speaker 24 We'll have episodes Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays starting next week.

Speaker 25 See you then.

Speaker 29 Hey, welcome into Walgreens.

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