Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods

Transcript

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Speaker 13 Hi, everyone. I'm Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline.
I'm joined today by Andrea Canning to discuss her latest episode, A Walk Through the Woods.

Speaker 13 If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here.

Speaker 13 To recap, in 2017, two schoolgirls, Libby German and Abby Williams, were found murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana, near an abandoned railway bridge.

Speaker 13 For years, the case went unsolved and police were at a standstill except for one clue, a grainy picture and a gravelly voice captured on Libby's phone right before the murders.

Speaker 13 It would turn out to be a very big clue that helped solve the girls' murders.

Speaker 13 For this episode, Andrea is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from her interview with the case's prosecutor, Nick McCleland. Then we'll answer viewer and listener questions from social media.

Speaker 13 All right, let's talk Dateline. Hey, Blaine.
Hi, Andrea. How are you? I'm good.
Thank Thank you. This was a tough one for me.
I can only imagine.

Speaker 13 I want to dive into that because this was one of those stories that, you know, a lot of our Dateline cases for viewers and even for us, they're brand new, right?

Speaker 13 You haven't heard about them before we bring them the episodes. This was something that we all kind of watched play out from beginning to end, right? Like I remember having friends cover this.

Speaker 13 I remember watching it. And when the cell phone video was released, all of that.

Speaker 13 There's a lot to dive into. I want to start with just where this actually occurred, that bridge.
It was already an eerie kind of setting for a crime like this, right? It really was.

Speaker 13 It was having been out there, it's very high up.

Speaker 13 It's old. It's dilapidated.
It's, you know,

Speaker 13 the ties are kind of far apart. A lot of people would go out on it, but I mean, you're really playing with fire out on this bridge.
Like if you fall, you're dead.

Speaker 13 I mean, I said to the sheriff, I was like, you would not catch me ever on that bridge. It was just so scary.
I remember that line. And I thought the exact same thing.

Speaker 13 I mean, was it as high as it seemed? Yeah, that was what surprised me. Now it's been turned into kind of a, like a recreation place before the bridge.
There's railings.

Speaker 13 You know, you can go out there and look out at the wilderness and the, and the creek and everything.

Speaker 13 But the bridge is still there. You know, the dangerous ties, people, if you.
wanted to go out on it, you could, you could find a way.

Speaker 13 There was a lot that was really memorable about this episode, but I have to say that almost as soon as you introduced Libby's grandparents, Mike and Becky, my heart just went out to them because I can't imagine just this feeling of like, hey, they were just having a sleepover at the house.

Speaker 13 Yeah. And then the next, the next day they're gone.

Speaker 13 Talk to me about what it was like just having that conversation with them. It was hard.
I was like, you know, on the verge of tears a few times. Mike and Becky were so nice.

Speaker 13 And I, you know, I commended them because there's a lot of grandparents who end up taking in their grandchildren, you know, as their own because of issues going on in the family.

Speaker 13 And I always think, you know, how incredible grandparents can be when they are so selfless. And, you know, they said they wouldn't have it any other way.

Speaker 13 And I think they truly enjoyed having the girls there. And something that was not in the show was something that Becky said to me.
She said they were, they had a Disney World vacation planned.

Speaker 13 Of course, the girls died. And she said the hardest thing, because it was months later, and they decided to go on the trip.
And she said she had to call and take Libby off of the reservation.

Speaker 13 You know, it just broke her when she had to do that because it just felt, you know, so real. And they were so excited about the trip.
Of course, of course. Oh, gosh, that's just so, so heartbreaking.

Speaker 13 I'm curious. Absolutely.
Did you or did anybody from our dateline team, did anyone speak to Abby's family?

Speaker 13 So Marianne O'Donnell, who's the producer on this story, the lead producer, she was in court every single day, and including Saturdays. The court was on Saturdays too.
So she got to know everyone.

Speaker 13 And Abby's family just, they did not do a whole lot there with the media. They were not particularly

Speaker 13 outspoken about everything, which is understandable

Speaker 13 given what

Speaker 13 they went through. Absolutely.
Absolutely understandable. You know, let's talk about this investigation.
I think, Andrea, for stories like this that so many of us follow, kind of almost in real time,

Speaker 13 I'm almost even more fascinated to watch the dateline episode because I think that I know a lot about a case. And then the episode brings forth some more that I didn't know.

Speaker 13 And the thing that I think all of us remember is that eerie recording from Libby's film. They have this image now of the murderer, his voice, and really the girls helped bring down their own killer.

Speaker 13 Yeah, I mean, I said that to the prosecutor. I said it was like Libby helped solve her own crime, you know, and the crime of her best friend.

Speaker 13 I don't think I've ever covered a story where someone has the wherewithal, you know, to pull out their phone feeling,

Speaker 13 you know, something's not right here and just hitting record. So, you know, hats off to Libby, who, by the way, was a big fan of crime dramas.

Speaker 13 You know, she loves like CSI and she loved the show Body of Proof. And also, you know, I'll say too, Mike Patty, her grandfather, he also really instilled, you know, safety in her and everything.

Speaker 13 And we know how tweens and teens are with their phones.

Speaker 13 I guess all those factors came together, and she just had that instinct to pull out her phone. I'm curious,

Speaker 13 you know, one of the things that we heard was that recording and the words down the hill, right? And correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the only portion that was released.

Speaker 13 I didn't realize that they actually had what 43 seconds

Speaker 13 of audio. Yeah, 43 seconds of audio and video.

Speaker 13 And, you know, I knew viewers would wonder why didn't they release the whole video? We never got a straight answer really of why they didn't.

Speaker 13 I think they also felt like seeing the images, seeing the snippet of him walking was enough. Well, I have another question about that.
I wonder, did the video lead investigators astray at all?

Speaker 13 I mean, it led to people kind of pointing fingers at friends, acquaintances online, just anyone that they could think about that even slightly resembled Bridge Guy. I mean, I I think they had to.

Speaker 13 You know, that happened. Sure, people were pointing fingers at each other and, you know, everyone was a suspect, but,

Speaker 13 you know, they had to release that video, right? I mean, how could you not? Sure. Because someone might have recognized something.
And,

Speaker 13 you know, the killer, his wife had seen the story on the news and said, hey, you were out there that day around that time.

Speaker 13 You know, the police are saying, come talk to us, you know, if you were, if you were out there on the trails. And so he did.

Speaker 13 You know, Richard Allen went to the police. Unfortunately, he didn't get with a detective.
He got with a conservation officer.

Speaker 13 Like, I know the now sheriff, who was a detective, said he didn't even know about Richard Allen. Like it never even got to him.
So that is unbelievable.

Speaker 13 Before we go further into Richard Allen, something that was really interesting about this episode to me, there were obviously alternate suspects.

Speaker 13 Let's talk about Anthony Schatz or Kevin Klein. That was,

Speaker 13 yeah,

Speaker 13 that was a journey. That was interesting.

Speaker 13 That was like a really big-time red herring. Yes, absolutely.
It was. First, I want to say I loved that we had these interviews that Court TV reporter had done, like WTHR.

Speaker 13 Yeah. I mean, to have that interview with the guy whose real picture it was while he was working out on a workout machine.
I know.

Speaker 13 I don't think I've ever done what's going on there, but I don't think I've interviewed any people like that on a, like who who are working out. Can I just say, I appreciate the multitasking, okay?

Speaker 13 He said, no excuses. We're getting it in today.
I know, that was so funny. Yeah, I know.
So funny.

Speaker 13 Like, it's, and it was so funny to think that he was a model and now he's like a police officer in Alaska. And he's like, he's like, wait a second.

Speaker 13 Why am I getting dragged into this murder investigation? I just want to go on the record and say, next time we do a talking date line, perhaps we could do it from the Peloton. And that would be.

Speaker 13 Right. Oh, my gosh.
No excuses to not working out there.

Speaker 13 But that whole episode with Anthony Schatz, Kagan Klein, I mean, that really was, yes, talk about a red herring.

Speaker 13 But I'm sure that when detectives kind of found those conversations with Libby, they were like, okay, this, this is it. Case closed.
We got it.

Speaker 13 I think they kept thinking that, like, you know,

Speaker 13 I mean, they thought it was going to be solved within, you know, a week.

Speaker 13 And it just didn't happen. I would imagine this had a tremendous impact on this community.

Speaker 13 You know, everybody was just fearful. Delphi is just a tiny,

Speaker 13 you know, little community.

Speaker 13 And you can only imagine like you're there to raise your family and you know, have kids and like where they feel safe and where you can drop them off at the trails for the afternoon and not think twice.

Speaker 13 And you know, everybody-that's the creepy thing.

Speaker 13 You feel like you know everybody, so now you're looking and it's like, okay, these people that I know is one of you guys, like, are we in the same restaurant with the person who did this?

Speaker 13 Are you next to me at the stoplight? Yeah, exactly. And you know, I was, um, everyone is so nice there.

Speaker 13 I was actually rear-ended. Um, I was in a rental, yeah, and um, like a service-type van van just crashes right into the back of me.
And he's like, meet me over at the fire.

Speaker 13 There was a fire station like right there. And so I went and he was so nice.
He's like, I'm so sorry. That was my fault.

Speaker 13 I feel like if I was in New York, they'd be like, you know, why'd you stop at a stop sign? Exactly.

Speaker 13 First, they wouldn't have told you to meet anyone over anywhere. They would have just like

Speaker 13 yelled at you and probably kept going.

Speaker 13 But it was funny, though, because it was like, it just showed you just how nice. Yeah.
Like, you know, every like there was no animosity, no fighting, no, like, denying, no, just,

Speaker 13 I'm so sorry. I'm sure you were on your way to an interview or something.
Oh, I was.

Speaker 13 We had to, we had to start late. Yeah.

Speaker 13 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 13 Okay. We're going to take a quick break.
When we come back, Andrea is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from her interview with the prosecutor in this case, Nick McCleland.

Speaker 14 Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena and I'm Ash.

Speaker 15 And we are the host of Morbid Podcast.

Speaker 14 Each week, we dive into the dark and fascinating world of true crime, spooky history, and the unexplained.

Speaker 16 From infamous killers and unsolved mysteries to haunted places and strange legends, we cover it all with research, empathy, humor, and a few creative expletives.

Speaker 14 It's smart, it's spooky, and it's just the right amount of weird.

Speaker 16 Two new episodes drop every week, and there's even a bonus once a month.

Speaker 14 Find us wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 13 Let's talk about the trial.

Speaker 13 And before we can talk about the trial, of course, we have to talk about the pre-trial hearing and kind of the judge ruling that the defense could not introduce this alternate theory that the murders were tied to Odinism.

Speaker 13 First, talk about what that was and that was a tremendous blow to the defense. It was.
Like the fireworks really happened pre-trial more than in trial.

Speaker 13 So if you watched the episode, you know, to our listeners, the defense team took me out to the woods and, you know, demonstrated how the sticks were placed on the bodies and the blood spatter on the tree.

Speaker 13 And that was fascinating, by the way. Yeah.

Speaker 13 I mean, they were convinced that it was, you know, a ritualistic killing, whereas the sheriff, who was the former detective, said that he he just felt like the sticks were kind of just like

Speaker 13 haphazardly thrown on the girls to try to cover them. But I mean,

Speaker 13 one thing is that there were not, it was, it was a very bad attempt. I mean, if, if he wanted to cover them up, it certainly didn't accomplish that.
Sure.

Speaker 13 So

Speaker 13 who knows? And so having that not be allowed in that, I mean, that kind of upends their defense in a way, right? Like they have to go on trial in a very in a different posture. Yeah.

Speaker 13 Well, and not, they weren't allowed any like other suspects. So it was just, they just had to find what they could like to defend Richard Allen.

Speaker 13 I mean, the defense went hard on the, um, his, you know, confessions, which they said were under extreme duress, that that's what happens when, you know, someone is

Speaker 13 placed in solitary like that for months.

Speaker 13 So Richard Allen was actually, you know, most of our viewers at this point, I feel like, and listeners know the difference between jail and prison, right?

Speaker 13 Jail is if you've been charged with murder, you will go to a jail until your trial and throughout your trial.

Speaker 13 And then if you're convicted, then you'll be, you know, carted off to a state prison somewhere or a federal prison.

Speaker 13 In this case, they actually sent Richard Allen to prison. Why?

Speaker 13 They said it was for his own safety.

Speaker 13 I was in the jail in Delphi and I did talk to the sheriff about the jail.

Speaker 13 And he said that

Speaker 13 they were understaffed. Richard Allen would have ended up like with other people.
They just, it's just too small. So they said that's why they just made this decision to send him to the prison.

Speaker 13 And then why he goes into solitary, they say, is for his own safety.

Speaker 13 But there were stories of him like doing things with his feces and that he's in his underwear and he's like, you know, the defense made it sound like he basically was like losing his mind in there.

Speaker 13 So they kind of, they kind of call them like, almost like false confessions. That's really interesting.

Speaker 13 Something that stood out to me was, I believe it was his defense attorney who was basically saying, hey, when you talk about matching the physical description, he's wearing what jeans and a Carhartt jacket.

Speaker 13 Like everybody's wearing jeans and Carhartt jacket. You know, like who, yeah, Carhartt hoodie.

Speaker 13 So I wonder about those just kind of differences or the kind of the pushback of like, does he exactly match the description of this guy? Well, the defense would say that he doesn't match.

Speaker 13 You know, there were differences in height and, you know, that the prosecutor, we pointed out never actually had that moment, that Perry Mason moment in court, you know, point the killer out, the man you saw.

Speaker 13 Like they didn't even do that.

Speaker 13 Also, we should mention too, that we have an extra clip that you did not see in the show. This is a clip from the prosecutor.
Yeah, Nick McCleland.

Speaker 13 Yeah, the prosecutor talking about what it was like waiting for the jury to come back with a verdict.

Speaker 18 I didn't expect a verdict in five minutes. We had three to four weeks of evidence.
They had shown through their jury questions that they were a very interested jury. They were paying attention.

Speaker 18 So we knew they were going to examine every piece of evidence carefully and not come to a decision in a hastily manner.

Speaker 13 Are you starting to think this could be a not guilty?

Speaker 18 No, I never believed it could be a not guilty. I thought there was too much evidence to be not guilty.
My fear was a hung jury.

Speaker 13 Come back in Monday morning, the verdict is read and it is guilty. What is that moment like for your team?

Speaker 13 You thinking about the family, all the hard work that you've put into this?

Speaker 18 As you can imagine, it's the culmination of, you know, seven years for me, almost eight years for the family of investigating this offense, another two years of preparing for trial, then, you know, the trial in itself, just imagine the culmination of that and to come out with a guilty verdict.

Speaker 18 Obviously, it's what we wanted. We think that brings justice to Abby and Libby and some peace piece of the family.
And so it's just a huge weight off your shoulders.

Speaker 13 There were people who were very concerned about a hung jury because even though it didn't look good for Richard Allen, there was still a lot of circumstantial evidence.

Speaker 13 Do you find that there is still, even though he's been convicted, is there still some doubt about this in the town? Like, where do people land on where the verdict?

Speaker 13 I mean, yeah, well, it's like, you know, I, of course, didn't talk to like tons of people in town. I know law enforcement, of course, believes they have the right man.

Speaker 13 The families, 100%, believe they have the right man.

Speaker 13 But there's some people that just, you know, that there's still lingering questions or,

Speaker 13 you know, the defense truly believes Richard Allen is innocent. I mean, they have a job to do, but they also believe he's innocent.

Speaker 13 Before we wrap up this portion of our conversation, Andrea, I want to circle back to something that you said at the beginning of just how difficult this case was, the story was for you to cover personally.

Speaker 13 And I mean, I wanted to ask you about that i i know that you are a mom you are a girl mom um and you even mentioned that for a bit in the episode of just the similarity in ages with two of your girls how did you kind of make your way through this story yeah i mean it just really like i was just fighting back tears um it was really sad for me because i always say like the you know

Speaker 13 the closest you're gonna you can get to these people and their feelings it and it's not very close but is to imagine that this these are your kids these are your daughters you know how would you feel and as soon as you do that you just kind of like oh like it's it's hard to think about right that that could happen it's just so hard to imagine that someone could do that to two teenage girls but he did

Speaker 13 like the worst thing is when and blain your kids aren't old enough yet but Like when you try to reach your child and they're not answering their phone or their phone goes straight to voicemail. Yeah.

Speaker 13 And you try them more times and then you're like, what, you know, what's going on? Why is it going straight to voicemail? Is it, did the battery die? Did they have service? Are they okay?

Speaker 13 Like, you know, and in this case, this was the nightmare, you know, where they're calling and nobody's answering. And then the hours start to tick by and then it gets dark.

Speaker 13 And then there's still no, they don't know where they are. And like,

Speaker 13 you just would do anything to know where that child is. Well, no, I can imagine watching you, I could tell

Speaker 13 just how, where your heart was in this story. And I think that you just did a really beautiful job with it.
So thank you.

Speaker 13 And I, you know, I don't want to scare my daughters, but I want to say to them, like, be so grateful, like for what you have. You know,

Speaker 13 I believe it was Mike Patty, you know, he said, hug your children and, and don't take them for granted and, you know, just appreciate every moment. Yeah.
Because

Speaker 13 even though, you know, bad things aren't going to happen to everyone's children, they will grow up too. And so, you need to just appreciate those moments, even just you know, they're young.

Speaker 13 It goes, you know, it goes fast. Yeah, everyone says it, and I completely believe it.
So, thank you for that. And thank you for this.
This episode was just, it was moving in so many ways, truly.

Speaker 13 Okay, and after the break, we will be back to answer viewer and listener questions from social media.

Speaker 14 Hey, weirdos!

Speaker 15 I'm Elena, and I'm Ash, and we are the host of Morbid Podcast.

Speaker 14 Each week, we dive into the dark and fascinating world of true crime, spooky history, and the unexplained.

Speaker 16 From infamous killers and unsolved mysteries to haunted places and strange legends, we cover it all with research, empathy, humor, and a few creative expletives.

Speaker 14 It's smart, it's spooky, and it's just the right amount of weird.

Speaker 16 Two new episodes drop every week, and there's even a bonus once a month.

Speaker 14 Find us wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 13 Yay! Woo! Aye!

Speaker 10 Check out Zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you.

Speaker 17 Just got a new puppy or kitten. Congrats! But also, yikes!

Speaker 17 Between crates, beds, toys, treats, and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune, which is where Lemonade Pet Insurance comes in.

Speaker 17 It helps cover vet costs so you can focus on what's best for your new pet. The coverage is customizable, signup is quick and easy, and your claims are handled in as little as three seconds.
Pro tip.

Speaker 17 Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a quote at lemonade.com slash pet.
Your future self will thank you. Your pet won't.
They don't know what insurance is.

Speaker 13 We've got some social media questions. There were a lot of reactions to this.
So I'll just read through a few.

Speaker 13 Ronnie Brock says, how could the police wait five years to follow up on a man who tells them he was there? Police could have gone to his home and found the jacket and pants he was wearing that day.

Speaker 13 That's, I mean, it's something we talked about. This goes back to the conservation officer that unfortunately just didn't have that spidey sense that maybe

Speaker 13 a detective might have. You know, I like, I don't know, I haven't talked to this man.

Speaker 13 I know that law enforcement was, every time I would bring him up, they were careful to sort of protect him a little bit too.

Speaker 13 No, but there was no, you know, saying he did the wrong thing or anything like that. Okay.
Jerry Lynn wrote on Facebook, how high off the ground was that bridge? 63 feet. 63 feet.

Speaker 13 Yeah, when you're standing up there, it feels even higher. I am sure.
Yeah. I have to say, I have, I actually have a fear of heights.

Speaker 13 It comes and goes, but it would definitely have, I couldn't have done it. You wouldn't like it.
No, you would not like this. Yeah.
We would have had to come up with a different way to shoot that.

Speaker 13 I could not have been up there. So my hat's off to you because that was amazing.

Speaker 13 Okay. Daniel Welcher on Facebook says, did Richard Allen have any criminal record before this? No, none, nothing.

Speaker 13 That was what was so strange about the whole thing is like suddenly he snaps, you know, it just

Speaker 13 didn't just didn't make any sense. And then we have an audio question from Gracie Donaldson Cipriano.
Let's listen.

Speaker 19 Hi, Dateline team. Gracie Donaldson Cipriano here with a question for Talking Dateline.
While it was really good to see a guilty verdict, we don't know why Richard Allen killed Abby and Libby.

Speaker 19 There was no clear motive. If it wasn't Odinism and it wasn't personal, as he didn't know the girls and it didn't seem like he was a serial killer, why?

Speaker 13 That's the million-dollar question, which we, you know, we did raise that in the show. You know, you don't need a motive in court.

Speaker 13 You don't need a motive as a prosecutor to try a case, but juries like them because they want to know why. You know, well, why did this guy do it?

Speaker 13 And that was the one thing that nobody seemed to have an answer for. Just bizarre.

Speaker 13 It's so strange too because you're absolutely right you want that resolution at the end but no it's in the truest sense a senseless crime well andrea we have talked a lot of dateline today thank you so much this was just a fascinating conversation as always thank you And that's it for talking Dateline this week.

Speaker 13 Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC.

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Speaker 13 And also remember to check out Keith's brand new podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. It's about a double murder in the Great Plains and an investigation that came down to one single shiny clue.

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Speaker 13 And of course, we'll see you this Friday on Dateline on NBC for my my very first show as a full-time Dateline correspondent. Thanks so much for listening.