Talking Dateline: The Man of Many Faces

Transcript

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Speaker 11 Hey, everyone, it's Andrea Canning, and we are talking Dateline.

Speaker 11 Today, as a special treat, I'm joined by Dateline producer Lynn Keller, who worked with me on the episode we're going to be talking about. Hey, Lynn.

Speaker 10 Hey, Andrea.

Speaker 11 So, this episode is called The Man of Many Faces. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed.

Speaker 11 So, go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here.

Speaker 11 For this talking Dateline, we have an extra clip from an interview with a pub owner in Scotland who came face to face with the man of many faces.

Speaker 11 But to recap, hoping to evade law enforcement and a slew of criminal charges against him, an American man, Nicholas Elaverdian, faked his own death and fled the country.

Speaker 11 Investigators and our Dateline team tracked down the elusive fugitive to Scotland before he was extradited back to the United States to face justice.

Speaker 11 And to tell one more surprising story about who he really is. Okay, let's talk Dateline.
Lynn, a big question is, and because it's going back now, is

Speaker 11 how did we get, you and I both just became very interested in this story together.

Speaker 10 I feel like you emailed me a link to the story. Okay.
And we were, we just kept talking about how crazy it was.

Speaker 10 And then our affiliate in Rhode Island in Providence interviewed him and we're like, oh, we want to do that too. And so I reached out to that reporter.

Speaker 10 He gave us Nicholas's contact or Arthur's contact. Arthur, yeah.
And then I set up a call for the three of us. It was you, me, and Arthur.
And then do you remember too?

Speaker 10 I remember we were on a story, a completely different story, and my phone rang and it was him. And so we had to, we had him on speaker and we just let him talk and talk.

Speaker 11 He does talk. He talks and talks and talks a lot.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 11 Not that there's anything wrong with that, but he does talk a lot. This story, the con man stories, you and I really enjoy doing them.

Speaker 11 Not to say, like, we feel obviously very bad for the victims of these stories

Speaker 11 because it's awful what people are put through by con men. But at the same time, they are fascinating to look into them.

Speaker 11 We don't do them as much on dateline. We usually stick to traditional murder investigations.

Speaker 10 Well, I think what happened is we got what we would consider a yellow light when we pitched the story. That's what you always say.

Speaker 10 And so they basically said, well, you know, just go see what more you can find.

Speaker 10 And so then once we booked the interview and you did that amazing,

Speaker 10 bizarre, crazy interview, that got our bosses hooked on, like, let's see what else we can do. Yeah.

Speaker 10 And one of the things I wanted to say also about the victims is that it turns out usually that they want to have a voice. They want to have an opportunity to talk about it.

Speaker 11 I was going to say the same thing. In this case, now Nicholas Rossi is behind bars.
He's pleaded not guilty to all of the criminal charges he's facing.

Speaker 11 But, you know, there was a time where he wasn't behind bars. And these women said, look, we're speaking out because

Speaker 11 we want to prevent this from happening to anybody else.

Speaker 10 The victims of Nicholas, alleged and some actual victims of Nicholas, they have a Facebook group where they communicate with each other and they keep track of what's happening with him.

Speaker 10 So they have banded together.

Speaker 11 You know, this interview came about. I mean, I honestly didn't think he wouldn't show up.
We disclose in our show that we did that interview remotely.

Speaker 11 I was in New York and

Speaker 11 Nicholas Arthur was in Scotland. We did that interview in my basement.
And, you know, a lot of people said, like, how did you keep a straight face? And the reality is I didn't.

Speaker 11 Like, when he stands up and, you know, falls over in that kind of, dare I say, iconic moment, that triggered me, you know, to start laughing.

Speaker 11 It was, it's one of those moments where, you know, when you're in school and you're not, like, you're not allowed to laugh and then you just, you laugh more.

Speaker 10 It was kind of that.

Speaker 11 And so I lift up my notes and I, and Arthur, are you laughing at me? Are you laughing at me? And I put the notes in front of my face because I felt so bad. I was like, no.

Speaker 11 And I'm trying to make up excuses, but there's no, there's no excuses. Like, it's just, it's happening.

Speaker 10 I mean, that was an extremely unusual circumstance to have somebody who was obviously faking,

Speaker 10 you know, try to do this demonstration.

Speaker 11 Yeah. And he would say he wasn't faking, that he really has these issues from COVID, you know, and he really truly was in the hospital

Speaker 11 for COVID.

Speaker 10 Well, then we found out later that when he goes back into the hospital, a female doctor and nurse told him that they were going to release him. And he hops off.
the gurney and goes to attack them.

Speaker 10 So that whole thing of him trying to stand up, I mean, chances are it was, it was completely inact. It was not real.

Speaker 11 Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people would probably agree with that.
So, yeah, we're trying to book another interview with him, and we've been going back and forth. And the jail has said no

Speaker 11 to allowing us physically inside the jail. So we were trying to do either a video interview over a video conference or a phone interview.

Speaker 11 And we've been just going back and forth, back and forth, and did not get him to agree by the deadline of our updated story.

Speaker 10 Right, because he did say that he's like, oh, I do want to do an in-person interview. That's what he told us.
Yeah.

Speaker 10 And we gave him the deadline and he never got back to us in time. He didn't get back to us in time.

Speaker 11 I would love to do an interview with him again. I mean, so I hope he accepts, you know, at some point to do another interview with us.

Speaker 10 What would be your first question? Like, what would be your most burning question? Oh,

Speaker 11 I don't, I don't know. That's a good question.

Speaker 11 I mean, certainly,

Speaker 11 you know, to see if he would reveal. So when he was in court this year in Utah, what was his line about, you know, he had to fake it because they were trying to kill him because of his work

Speaker 11 with Department of Children and Youth Services in Rhode Island

Speaker 11 that, you know, they were after him. And so he had to like essentially, what, go into hiding? And he made that comment about if you, what was it if you give a mouse a piece of cheese or whatever?

Speaker 10 Break that down for us, Lynn. What did that mean?

Speaker 10 The prosecutor asked him, so who are these people who want to kill you? And he said, well, I don't want to give a mouse cheese.

Speaker 10 And basically, he was saying that by saying their names, he was elevating the whole issue. So they closed the court.
And then I guess he revealed two names of people that we don't know.

Speaker 10 I would be curious to know how much his wife Miranda knew if he would tell us. Like, when when did she find out about his faked death?

Speaker 11 I would love to talk to her again, too, Miranda. I'd love to get her reaction to what is happening now.

Speaker 11 Um, because she said, remember, if anyone would know, I would, you know, if he was a bad person. I mean, and we, you and I were talking about this.

Speaker 11 Like, he's, um, on one hand, it's, there's elements of this that are kind of humorous, you know, the falling and the characters and all that. Um,

Speaker 11 but there are real victims in this, some alleged, some victims. But I mean, he is accused of rape, violent rape.
And that is no laughing matter. And so it's a, he's a kind of a weird dichotomy.

Speaker 11 It's one of those ones, you're sort of confused to how you should react to this man, right? And how you should talk about him. It's very, like, I've never really encountered someone like him.

Speaker 10 That reporter in Scotland that you interviewed, she said, I've been a journalist for 30 years. I've never never met anyone like him.
Yeah. So it's across the board.
We're all feeling the same.

Speaker 11 And it goes to the title of the show, The Man of Many Faces, right? So maybe there is one man that you laugh at, and then there's one man that you're scared of. And, you know, it's.

Speaker 10 And one man you feel sorry for because he had a terrible upbringing, had terrible childhood. You know, absolutely.

Speaker 11 When we get back, a bonus clip with a local pub owner who saw the con man from behind the bar.

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Speaker 11 What do you think about his voice? Do you think the

Speaker 11 like talking like that? Do you think that that could be real, that that's a side effect of COVID?

Speaker 11 Or do you think that that's a put-on voice and that the moment the cameras go away, he talks to Miranda normally?

Speaker 10 Yeah. So when he did the interview with you and he was in Scotland, I believe that some of it was true and some of it was a little bit put on because he really did want to communicate his side to you.

Speaker 10 And sometimes you just couldn't understand him. And so you'd turn to Miranda and say, could you basically tell me what he just said?

Speaker 10 But that stuttering thing seemed, that seemed put on to me.

Speaker 10 But even today, he has that, his voice has definitely been affected. And maybe that's from having oxygen going constantly, that that could also affect your vocal cords.
I don't know.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it's, you know, when we, when we talk about this man of many faces and, and, you know, he had to really keep up the accents and like, you know, his profession and all like different people that he spoke to.

Speaker 11 Maybe he was different things. We have a clip with a pub owner we sat down with in Glasgow who shared an Arthur Knight story.
Let's take a listen to what he had to say.

Speaker 10 So in the UK, we have a dish called coronation chicken, right? Which is a standard thing for buffets,

Speaker 10 weddings, or bowling clubs and stuff like that. And we were having coronation chicken for lunch one day, and I had some extra wraps.
And I asked him if he wanted a coronation chicken wrap.

Speaker 10 You know, we're kind of like that in here, quite friendly, quite open.

Speaker 10 And he didn't know what coronation chicken was.

Speaker 10 Now, so that was

Speaker 10 odd for you. Well, not at the time.

Speaker 10 At the time, I'm just thinking, oh, you know, old money guy. I don't know what they have at the boothies, you know.

Speaker 10 But coronation chicken is like sausage rolls or whatever at a buffet or sandwiches or whatever, you know, so

Speaker 10 that with hindsight,

Speaker 10 that

Speaker 10 that's strange that he wouldn't know what that was, you know.

Speaker 11 Most people from this area would know or king or most people in the UK.

Speaker 10 Yeah, most people in the UK would be aware of what coronation chicken is. Yeah, he wasn't.
So, you know, with hindsight, that, you know, that was his, his,

Speaker 10 that was his mask slipping again, you know.

Speaker 11 So you had his name slipped, his American accent would occasionally slip, and he didn't know what coronation chicken was. Correct.

Speaker 11 And the case is cracked with the public.

Speaker 10 The case is cracked. I actually looked up what coronation chicken is, and it's spicy with dried apricots and curry, cumin, turmeric, ginger, and other spices.

Speaker 11 That sounds kind of good, actually.

Speaker 11 It does. And it was

Speaker 11 trivia here for all our listeners who saw the episode.

Speaker 11 Where was the other chicken mentioned? Quick, think about it, think about it. Champagne chicken,

Speaker 11 champagne chicken.

Speaker 10 Miranda served it to Jane McSorley, the reporter.

Speaker 11 The reporter, yeah, the champagne chicken. So there we, there you go.
Two chicken references in one date line.

Speaker 11 Before we get to the social media comments and questions, you know, I wanted to point out how just how strong Mary was, you know, for coming to Utah from Ohio to

Speaker 11 she was planning to face him and we were told he was going to be in court and his name was even on the door in the, you know, the docket listing as in person. And then he was unfortunately over video.

Speaker 11 But, you know, good for Mary for coming to face him. And unfortunately, Catherine Heckendorn would have come as well, but she had just given birth to a baby.
So

Speaker 11 I know you were impressed, Lynn, by Mary and her, you know, her talking, approaching the prosecutor and saying, I'm here. If you need anything, if there's a sentencing phase or anything like that.

Speaker 10 Yeah, when we were sitting in the courtroom,

Speaker 10 I saw who the prosecutor was, and they were talking to his attorney. And so I pointed him out to Mary.
I said, you know, that's the prosecutor there.

Speaker 10 And within minutes, I see her get up, go over, and she introduced herself.

Speaker 10 And the prosecutor took her information so that if there's a sentencing, she would have a chance to talk to the judge, which is amazing.

Speaker 10 And I also remember when she was doing the interview with you this time, she said, he messed with the wrong girl. And I thought, yes, he did.
I love that.

Speaker 10 So many of the, of his alleged victims, they were too afraid of him and they didn't, they didn't pursue it, but she was, she was not backing down.

Speaker 11 Well, she didn't back down.

Speaker 11 And then, and then, of course, that's the whole reason that the, this international manhunt was sparked because she, because of what she did, he had to register as a sex offender.

Speaker 11 He had to give up his DNA. And then the prosecutor in Utah, David Levitt, testing the rape kits.

Speaker 11 There you go.

Speaker 10 He, there's a hit.

Speaker 11 There's a hit in Ohio. And that is all because of Mary.

Speaker 10 Yeah. And it was like nine or 10 years later that

Speaker 10 it happened.

Speaker 11 Right. So kudos to Mary.
Kudos to Catherine, who survived and is doing great. And also David Levitt, the former prosecutor for wanting to test those rape kits on

Speaker 11 the podcast I do, Dateline True Crime Weekly, the other podcast. We hear about all these untested rape kits all over the country.

Speaker 11 And it's sad because each one of those kits represents a woman who says that she was sexually assaulted. And why is it not having its due?

Speaker 11 Why are we not bringing these attackers to justice? So,

Speaker 11 you know, it certainly sparked one of the most unusual stories we've ever done. But also, you know,

Speaker 11 just to talk about untested rape kits, it is such a big deal in this country. And so, hopefully,

Speaker 11 you know, that discussion will continue and more

Speaker 11 departments around the country will

Speaker 11 pay more attention to that and take that seriously. If he did, in fact, commit these rape rape crimes in Utah, then, you know, sometimes

Speaker 11 being convicted, you know, for another person's crime can speak for all.

Speaker 11 You know, if he is, if he is sentenced to prison, you know, maybe it's, it's not perfect justice, but we see these in date lines where the victims say, look, I just want him to be behind bars.

Speaker 11 I just want it so he can't hurt anyone else. And that's what I hope, you know, if he is convicted of these crimes, that that's what will give her some peace.

Speaker 11 All right, up next, your questions from social media.

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Speaker 11 We are back, and one of the biggest questions from social media was: why didn't the Scottish courts test Nicholas's DNA to confirm his identity? We heard that over and over again.

Speaker 10 Yes. And in this sentencing, the judge in Scotland, he actually sort of reprimanded the prosecution saying, you know, why was this not, why did they not test his DNA?

Speaker 10 It was, you know, it was a rhetorical thing, so the prosecutor didn't respond. So we don't know.
We don't know what it is.

Speaker 10 I would imagine, based on your interview with, with Arthur, is that he was making it so difficult, the whole DNA. And so they figured, let's just go with the fingerprints and the tattoos.

Speaker 10 But they weren't able to use those until he attacked the doctor. Because for that charge, they were able to

Speaker 10 take all that information. And then that's how they presented it to the court.

Speaker 11 Well, even when we were in Scotland, remember we went to the hearing and he was a no-show because he was becoming increasingly difficult to get him out of the cell and like into the transport van or whatever to get him to the courthouse.

Speaker 11 That became a problem.

Speaker 10 He's doing that here in the U.S. too.
He's doing the same same thing.

Speaker 11 And back to the DNA. So when Nicholas got back to the U.S., the prosecutor was finally able to test the DNA, and it was, in fact, Nicholas.
It was a match, they say.

Speaker 10 Well, the investigator testified that they did test his DNA, and it was, in fact, Nicholas Rossi, Alaverdian.

Speaker 11 There were a lot of questions about the photo of Nicholas in the hospital while he's in a coma. Why was he wearing glasses if he was in a coma? Wow, good.
I didn't even notice that.

Speaker 11 I don't think he's in a coma at that moment.

Speaker 10 He's in dire straits, but I think he's out of the coma at that point. Okay.

Speaker 11 Okay.

Speaker 11 Sy professor 23 on Facebook said, wife Miranda obstructing justice and harboring a fugitive to name a few.

Speaker 10 Those are, okay,

Speaker 11 that's this user's allegation. She has not been convicted of a crime or charged with a crime.

Speaker 11 This user's husband said, she's Scotland's problem now. So the question is, will Miranda face any charges?

Speaker 10 I don't think so. I mean, they would have to prove that she knew that he was a fugitive, which we don't know that she knows that.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 11 So until she says it.

Speaker 10 I mean, yeah, I think it would be very hard to prosecute her. Plus, Scotland, I feel like, is just like

Speaker 10 your problem.

Speaker 11 They're kind of done with it. But it does actually open up that question of Miranda.
You know, we talked about it earlier. Did Miranda, what did she know, not know?

Speaker 11 As far as Nicholas's other identity, you know, that he's an American,

Speaker 11 you know, there's a good chance she probably did know if he was, if he was doing this on purpose to save his life, as he says, that people were after him. He probably would tell his wife, right?

Speaker 10 Or maybe that's what he said. He said, I'm pretending, not that I'm a fugitive from justice, but I'm pretending to be somebody else because there are people who want to kill me.

Speaker 10 So then she would, she'd have no culpability there.

Speaker 11 Right. And again, we don't, we don't know this.
We're speculating. We have absolutely no idea.
This is just sort of based on covering the story for a long time together.

Speaker 11 Cynthia Perna Tulin on Facebook said about Nicholas, should have used his smarts for good and not the evil he unleashed on everyone.

Speaker 10 I thought that. I've thought that many times because there was a part of him.
that wanted to do that. You know, he really did want to change the law because when he was in the foster care system,

Speaker 10 he was in this system where they would put him in a different house every single night. Like, how is a child supposed to flourish in a situation like that?

Speaker 10 And that was one of the things he was trying to change. Yeah, it's a shame that he couldn't have taken all of his smarts and energy and just kept on that path.
But

Speaker 10 absolutely.

Speaker 10 He was the victim of abuse himself.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 10 it was a challenge. It is a challenge.

Speaker 11 So the prosecutor in Utah has offered him a plea deal. He's been given some time to think it over.
If he decides to go to trial, there could be two trials.

Speaker 11 Lynn, do we know the maximum sentence he's facing?

Speaker 10 It's five to life. That's what I'm doing.
Oh, wow. Okay.
If you're convicted, it's five to life. So that every five years you'd have a chance to get out, I guess.
Okay. Okay.

Speaker 11 So this plea deal sounds like a no-brainer unless he wants to roll the dice with a judge or a jury.

Speaker 10 Well, we know that he's a very, he has very strong convictions. So he'd have to admit that he raped these two women.

Speaker 11 Lynn, thank you so much for this kind of special edition of Talking Dateline.

Speaker 11 I think it was funny. Yeah, it was fun talking with you since we've been on this journey together, this bizarre journey.
So

Speaker 11 look forward to continuing to follow this story in 2025 as we see how it unfolds and what happens to Nicholas. And getting another interview.

Speaker 10 I was thinking the same thing. Another interview.

Speaker 11 Are you listening? Are you listening?

Speaker 11 Thank you. That's it for Talking Dateline this week.
Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC.

Speaker 11 And be sure to check out Josh's new original podcast, Deadly Mirage.

Speaker 11 Episodes one to five are out now, and the final episode will be released Thursday for those who have been waiting to binge the series.

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Thanks for listening.