Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.

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Speaker 4 You're listening in to Dateline's morning meeting in 30 Rockefeller Center.

Speaker 3 I'm here. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
You missed all the Christmas tree talk.

Speaker 4 Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country.

Speaker 3 The techs start revealing this really kind of devious plot. They try to put that in his margaritas.

Speaker 5 And I do believe the defense will rest today.

Speaker 3 So she is charged with the mom's murder? No.

Speaker 4 Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning.
It's November 14th, and here's what's what's on our docket.

Speaker 4 A 26-year-old mother of two was missing for months before her body was found in a drainage pipe in southern Minnesota. We've got the latest on her alleged killer's trial.

Speaker 6 The defense was able to get a change of venue, claiming that a lot of people in the community participated in the search for her.

Speaker 4 In Dateline Roundup, dramatic developments in the case of missing Texas mom, Suzanne Simpson, and a judge hears arguments in the Brian Koberger case.

Speaker 4 Should the man accused of murdering four University of Idaho students face the death penalty?

Speaker 7 When somebody sits on death row and there's no real means of executing them, that is dehumanizing to that person.

Speaker 4 Plus, Keith Morrison will be here. On the 20th anniversary of Scott Peterson's conviction, Keith looks back on the blockbuster case.

Speaker 1 Evidence at that stage was hard to figure out, except that this guy, the husband, he was a strange cat people couldn't figure out.

Speaker 4 But before all that, we're headed to a courthouse in Carroll County, Indiana, where this week a jury reached a verdict in the trial of the man accused of murdering two schoolgirls in 2017.

Speaker 4 It's a case we've talked about several times on the podcast, the brutal double murder of middle schoolers Abby Williams and Libby German, who were found stabbed to death in the woods near a winding creek.

Speaker 4 The case hung over their hometown of Delphi, Indiana for five years until 2022 when investigators arrested a local man by the name of Richard Allen.

Speaker 4 Allen's trial began almost a month ago with the prosecution and the defense presenting starkly different accounts of the defendant.

Speaker 4 Was he a killer without mercy who forced two terrified girls down a hill at gunpoint? Or was he an innocent man caught up in a botched investigation?

Speaker 4 Here to fill us in on what the jury decided and how the community reacted is Dateline producer Marianne O'Donnell. Hey, Marianne.

Speaker 5 Hey, Andrea.

Speaker 4 Give us a sense of what the jury had to go over once they went into that jury room.

Speaker 4 I'm sure that video from Libby German's phone of a man who looks to be telling the girls to go down the hill had to be a big focus for them.

Speaker 5 Well, you know, the prosecution said, look,

Speaker 5 look at that image taken by Libby. German just before her death.
They're saying, who but Richard Allen fits the description of that man that you see there.

Speaker 5 One other bit bit of a bombshell that the prosecution delivered was in one of his confessions from prison, Richard Allen said, I killed those girls.

Speaker 5 I had the intent to rape them, but then I saw a van passing by and I got scared.

Speaker 5 And sure enough, There's a man who said he was driving a van that day at around that time up his driveway, which runs parallel to the creek.

Speaker 4 So the prosecution is saying, look, you've got to give credibility to this confession because it matches up with this witness.

Speaker 5 That's right. And who but the killer would know that detail?

Speaker 4 What do you think were the most powerful moments the jury took away from the defense as they deliberated?

Speaker 5 Well, I have to say, so much was in the video. You see this video of him in prison, and he is at times gaunt.
At times, he is covered in feces.

Speaker 5 Defense is saying, listen, they broke this guy in prison. Those confessions have got to be thrown out because this man was not in his right state of mind.

Speaker 4 And there was one more thing at the end of the defense's arguments about the headphone jack of Libby's phone. Tell us about that.

Speaker 5 This was another one of those jaw-dropping moments. The defense expert said, look, at 5.45 p.m., the state's theory is the girls are already dead at this point.

Speaker 5 Why then does the data show that something was plugged into the headphone jack of the phone at 5.45 p.m. and then unplugged some five hours later around 10.30? That's your killer.

Speaker 5 And by the way, that cannot be Richard Allen. He's home by then.

Speaker 4 Oh my goodness. That is an interesting nugget.
Marianne, the jury deliberated for around 19 hours over the course of four days.

Speaker 4 Take us inside that courthouse while you and everyone else were waiting for the verdict.

Speaker 5 We were not allowed inside the courthouse until they said there's a verdict. But when we came into that courtroom, there was no sound.
It was like everybody was just holding their breath.

Speaker 5 You couldn't hear people breathing or coughing like you normally did. And then

Speaker 5 they handed the judge the form and she read it like she was ripping off a band-aid. Count one, guilty.
Count two, guilty. Count three, guilty.
Count four, guilty.

Speaker 5 And after that first guilty, you heard one gasp and then silence. One gasp, likely from one of the victim's families.
And then you hear this very silent weeping. And it was right behind me.

Speaker 5 And it was his wife, Kathy Allen, and his mom.

Speaker 4 Can you break down the four counts for us of what he was found guilty of?

Speaker 5 The first and second counts were called felony murder. The first for Abigail Williams, the second for Libby German.

Speaker 5 And what that that really refers to is it includes kidnapping in the commission of murder. And then the second two counts, three and four, are called murder, felony, the opposite.

Speaker 5 And those refer to intentionally causing the deaths of these girls.

Speaker 4 Did he have a reaction? Did he say anything?

Speaker 5 He said nothing. He looked stoic.

Speaker 5 But then at one point, he turned his head around and he looked at his wife and he just kept nodding his head as if he was suddenly communicating to her like, it's going to be okay.

Speaker 4 How has the community reacted to this?

Speaker 5 For the past three weeks, the people lining up outside have been people not from Delphi, but from other parts of the country who've come in just to watch this trial.

Speaker 5 And many of those people that I interviewed were really rooting for Richard Allen.

Speaker 5 However, after the verdicts, as I came down the courthouse steps, I all of a sudden hear this whoop and this round of applause, and I see the street filled with people.

Speaker 5 The people of Delphi had heard about the verdict, and they came out to show their support for the families of the victims.

Speaker 4 What is next for the case, Marianne?

Speaker 5 Sentencing. Sentencing is set for December 20th.
He's looking at 45 to 65 years for the deaths of each girl.

Speaker 4 Allen's wife, Kathy, she is ready to fight the verdict. She spoke to NBC affiliate WTHR as she left the courtroom.
And then Richard Allen's wife came out. Richard Allen's wife, Kathy Allen, came out.

Speaker 4 She was crying and she just said to the media, this isn't over at all.

Speaker 4 That was her one indication.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean, Kathy Allen has been a constant presence there in the court. His mother has been there most days.

Speaker 5 And even though they were weeping when this came down, they had a bit of, I guess, I don't know if it's stoicism or determination that this was not going to be the end of things.

Speaker 4 What about the girls' families? Do we know where they go from here? Sometimes family members of victims, you know, they channel that pain into helping others.

Speaker 5 You're 100% right. And that is the case in respect to Libby's family.
Her grandmother and her sister have become very outspoken advocates for victims' rights.

Speaker 5 And I think Abby's mother, I know that once a year, she does this really beautiful charity service for kids who don't have access to things like pencils and paper and games.

Speaker 5 And people in the community come and join her and they fill shoeboxes with all these great things that kids would love. And they go out over the country to kids.
And that's in Abby's memory.

Speaker 5 That's so nice.

Speaker 4 Thanks, Marianne, so much for your reporting and for bringing it to us on the podcast. We appreciate it.

Speaker 5 Thanks, Andrea.

Speaker 4 Up next, thousands of people turned up to search for a young mom who disappeared in southern Minnesota.

Speaker 4 But it wasn't until a sheriff's deputy heard flies swarming over a pile of logs that she was found. A year and a half later, her ex-boyfriend went on trial for murder.

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Speaker 4 On March 31st, 2023, at 8 in the morning, Madeline Kingsbury and her ex-boyfriend Adam Frayville dropped their kids off at daycare in Winona, Minnesota.

Speaker 4 It was the last time the five-year-old and two-year-old would see their mother. She was 26 years old.

Speaker 4 Her family reported her missing the next day, and a little over two months later, a body was found wrapped in a fitted sheet in a culvert. Our affiliate, KTTC, covered the news.

Speaker 13 Law enforcement has confirmed the remains are those of Madeline Kingsbury.

Speaker 4 Adam was arrested for her murder a few hours later, and for the past month, his trial on four counts of murder, two for killing her and two for killing her while committing domestic abuse, has riveted the state as the prosecution has told the story of a woman trying and failing to escape a relationship that had become violent.

Speaker 4 Olivia Pronzynski, who reports for KTTC, was in the courtroom every day and joins us now from Rochester, Minnesota. Hey, Olivia.

Speaker 6 Hi, thanks for having me.

Speaker 4 What has been the reaction in southern Minnesota where all of this happened? There was a search, of course,

Speaker 4 when a young mom goes missing like that. I would imagine a lot of people turned out to try to find Maddie.

Speaker 6 Yeah, thousands.

Speaker 6 There were several large searches every week, and it seemed like there were 50 to 100 volunteers coming out on top of several law enforcement agencies doing stuff on their end as well.

Speaker 4 And during this time that Maddie is missing, what is Adam doing? Is he helping search for her? Is he doing pleas on the news? Is he going on social media?

Speaker 6 Adam claims that he was told by the BCA not to participate in searches, don't go to any press conferences. But later on, I confirmed with the BCA that they never said that to him.

Speaker 4 Oh my goodness. And BCA, are those crime scene investigators?

Speaker 6 Sorry, not everyone is from Minnesota. The BCA is basically the top crime investigator in Minnesota.
It stands for Bureau of Criminal Apprehension.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that would seem really odd for law enforcement to tell someone's significant other not to participate in a search. I've never heard that before.
Of course.

Speaker 4 They're in the middle of a breakup at this point.

Speaker 8 Yes.

Speaker 6 The relationship had actually been done for, I believe, a couple of weeks, if not months, but they were still living together for the kids' sake.

Speaker 4 So it took from April 1st until June 7th for them to find Maddie's body.

Speaker 6 Yeah, so where her body was found had actually been searched numerous times by law enforcement agencies.

Speaker 6 And she was found in a culvert that nobody knew existed, which is a piece of pipe that directs water underneath a road.

Speaker 6 And so the investigator, he just so happened to go down that road one day.

Speaker 6 And he said that he got out of his car and walked up and down the road and then he could smell

Speaker 6 decomposition and that he could hear flies.

Speaker 6 And he looked down, and he said that he had trouble seeing it at first, but poking out from underneath a pile of logs, he could see a gray-fitted bed sheet.

Speaker 4 Adam was arrested the day the body was found, charged with murder two days later. Did the police give insight into what evidence they had that led to this quick arrest of Adam?

Speaker 6 Really, it was all of the abuse allegations that came from Madeline's family and friends. I think the biggest one was the abuse allegation where it happened in the September of 2021.

Speaker 6 They were watching a,

Speaker 6 I believe, a special on Gabby Petito. And after that,

Speaker 6 I think Madeline expressed that the murder made her upset and it was sad to see.

Speaker 6 And then Adam allegedly put his hands around her neck and pushed her into the couch and said that if she didn't wise up, that she would end up like Gabby Petito.

Speaker 8 Oh, I don't think I've ever heard anything quite like that.

Speaker 4 My goodness.

Speaker 6 Yeah, a scary situation for sure.

Speaker 4 The statute in Minnesota also comes into play because he was committing domestic abuse allegedly. And if there's a pattern of domestic abuse, that can affect your charges.

Speaker 6 Yes, according to Minnesota law, the prosecution had to prove two other instances of alleged domestic abuse. And in this case, they had multiple.
They had the Gabby Patino incident.

Speaker 6 There was the incident with one of Madeline's friends where they were on a FaceTime call and she watched him hit her across the face.

Speaker 6 There were also instances where friends noticed bruising around her neck.

Speaker 8 You were in court, Olivia, for the entire trial?

Speaker 6 Yes, I was there for the whole month.

Speaker 4 The state was arguing that Maddie's murder was premeditated.

Speaker 6 According to the lead prosecutor on this, there were several things that make it seem like it may have been planned.

Speaker 6 They had security cameras in their home and they were ripped down just a few days before she went missing.

Speaker 6 The prosecution argued that no one else knew where that Colbert was besides Adam Frable.

Speaker 4 Adam chose not to testify. Did the defense present any evidence that threw some doubt on the prosecution's case?

Speaker 6 Yeah, they were calling it a case of tunnel vision because they said that other suspects were possibly overlooked.

Speaker 6 They were also trying to, I guess, poke holes in the investigation by saying that essentially Madeline Kingsbury's body wasn't in that culvert before, and there's no way that Adam Fraville could have done it because after April 1st, Adam was under constant supervision.

Speaker 6 There was a tracker put on his car.

Speaker 4 Adam Fraville was found guilty on all four counts last week.

Speaker 6 Yes, he was found guilty on all four counts of murder. I think a lot of people are relieved.
The family described it as a weight off their shoulder.

Speaker 6 I mean, I can't even imagine what has gone through the family's mind throughout this past 19 months waiting for justice.

Speaker 4 Sentencing is coming soon for Adam Frabel.

Speaker 6 Yes, he'll be sentenced on December 17th. And for first-degree murder in Minnesota, it's a mandatory life sentence.

Speaker 4 Olivia, thank you for taking us through this very, very tragic case.

Speaker 6 Yeah, thank you for having me.

Speaker 4 If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE. That's 1-800-799-7233 or visit www.thehotline.org.

Speaker 4 Coming up, over a month after missing Texas mom Suzanne Simpson disappeared, her husband is charged with her murder. And Brian Koberger is back in court with his life on the line.

Speaker 4 Plus, Keith Morrison joins the show as we look back at Scott Peterson's case on the 20th anniversary of his conviction.

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Speaker 4 Welcome back to the show. Joining me for this week's roundup is Dateline correspondent Blaine Alexander.
Blaine, welcome back to the podcast.

Speaker 12 So glad to be here.

Speaker 4 Yeah. All right.
So first up, we have several updates in the case we first talked about a few weeks ago.

Speaker 4 Out in a wealthy suburb of San Antonio, Texas, Suzanne Simpson, a mom of four, has been missing since the beginning of October.

Speaker 4 In the days that followed, her husband Brad was charged with assault and a federal weapons charge, as well as tampering with evidence. Then last week, he was charged again.

Speaker 4 Here's our NBC affiliate, WOAI.

Speaker 14 This obviously is not the development that Suzanne's loved ones and community wanted to hear. Brad Simpson, now charged with her murder, he is here at.

Speaker 4 We are now talking murder. Tell us how this all went down and what Brad is facing.
This is huge.

Speaker 11 Although, remember, Suzanne's body has still not been found. So right now, his total bond is set at $5 million.

Speaker 11 And his attorney has previously said that he does intend to plead not guilty to all charges.

Speaker 4 What do we know about why they're charging Brad with murder now?

Speaker 11 So there's so much that we don't know about this, Andrea.

Speaker 11 First, the arrest affidavit was originally sealed by the judge for 30 days, but it has since been obtained by our affiliate, WOAI, and it does include an alleged timeline of events and new details like cameras showing at least two trash bags and a large ice chest in the back of Brad's truck, along with a quote, a large item wrapped in a blue tarp with a firewood rack placed on top of it.

Speaker 11 We also know that investigators are now searching an area that's near the property in Bandera, Texas. That's where Brad reportedly went after Suzanne disappeared.

Speaker 4 One of Brad and Suzanne's children also spoke out last week, their daughter. What did she have to say?

Speaker 11 We heard from her on Instagram, Chandler Simpson.

Speaker 11 She's the 20-year-old daughter of Brad and Suzanne, and she called Suzanne, quote, a victim of abuse from my father, and added, my father took my mother's life in a state of rage and control.

Speaker 9 Wow.

Speaker 4 Still a lot we don't know about this case. We'll be sure to keep you posted on what happens next.

Speaker 4 For our next story, Brian Koberger is back in the headlines. Koberger is, of course, accused of murdering four University of of Idaho students in 2022.
He was back in court for a hearing last week.

Speaker 4 Blaine, what happened in the hearing?

Speaker 11 So this really centers around the death penalty and whether the death penalty can be used in this case. Now, of course, as we know, Koberger has pleaded not guilty.
The trial has yet to get underway.

Speaker 11 But at this hearing, the defense argued that the trial should not allow the death penalty as a punishment should he be found guilty in this case.

Speaker 4 What was the defense's argument?

Speaker 11 Well, basically, they focused on some ongoing issues with the death penalty in the the state of Idaho.

Speaker 11 Idaho has had real trouble obtaining the drugs used to perform lethal injection, and they've not used the death penalty since 2012, so more than a decade.

Speaker 4 Here's some coverage from our NBC affiliate, KTVB, of the defense's argument at the hearing.

Speaker 7 When somebody sits on death row and there's no real means of executing them, that is dehumanizing to that person.

Speaker 4 How did the prosecution respond to all of this? What was their argument?

Speaker 11 Well, they pushed back.

Speaker 11 They said that lethal injection is currently available in Idaho and that its availability should not determine the outcome of whether the death penalty is on the table or not in this case.

Speaker 16 Even if you assume that Idaho cannot do lethal injection, that's not to say that decades from now, there is not going to be a method by which the state could put them to death.

Speaker 4 The judge said he would issue a ruling on the death penalty at a later date, but we'll be watching this one and we'll keep you posted. Blaine, thank you so much for coming back on Roundup.

Speaker 11 You're so welcome, Andrea.

Speaker 4 20 20 years ago this week, in November 2004, a crowd of people gathered outside the San Mateo County Courthouse in California.

Speaker 4 They were there to hear the verdict in a case that had captivated the nation.

Speaker 17 We, the jury, in the above entitled Cause, find the defendant Scott Lee Peterson guilty of the crime of murder of Lacey Denise Peterson. Guilty of the crime of murder of baby Conner Peterson.

Speaker 4 We asked Keith Morrison, who covered this story from the very beginning, along with Dateline senior producer Susan Leibowitz, to come and chat about why this case struck such a nerve back in 2004 and continues to do so today.

Speaker 4 Hey, Susan and Keith.

Speaker 8 Hello. Good to be here.

Speaker 4 Keith, you filed your first report on this case just three weeks after Lacey disappeared. Let's take a quick listen to the opening lines of that episode.

Speaker 15 Where was she?

Speaker 1 Christmas Eve of all days.

Speaker 13 Lacey Peterson, just 27, beautiful. due in a month, was just not the sort of person who'd wander off without telling someone.

Speaker 4 What caught your attention about this case?

Speaker 1 You know, this was just obvious from the very beginning that something very weird had happened. There was a search for the missing woman, of course.

Speaker 4 By 2 a.m., we had flyers made. Christmas morning.
Christmas morning, yeah.

Speaker 13 Posters and flyers blanketed Modesto. Scores of policemen gave up Christmas to hunt for clues.

Speaker 1 You know, evidence at that stage was hard to figure out, except that this guy, the husband, he was a strange cat people people couldn't figure out.

Speaker 1 Scott's frantic story, simple yet utterly baffling, was this.

Speaker 18 At 9.30 in the morning on Christmas Eve, he had decided to drive 90 miles to San Francisco Bay, he says, to do some sturgeon fishing.

Speaker 1 One of my early memories was standing outside of the Peterson house, hoping that we could get an interview with him. And

Speaker 1 indeed, Scott Peterson walked out of his house. He was very calm, and I don't know what it meant, if anything.
It's just that this first impression was quite remarkable.

Speaker 4 You felt like if your wife and your unborn child are missing, you would be, you know, a wreck.

Speaker 1 Exactly. And I think that's one of the things that made this such a big story that the public was looking at it and said, look at this guy.
Look at the way he behaves.

Speaker 1 And yet, you know, the police didn't have the evidence to arrest him.

Speaker 13 Do you consider him a suspect?

Speaker 16 We would love to eliminate Scott from this investigation. We haven't been able to do that.

Speaker 4 About a month after Lacey's disappearance, a woman by the name of Amber Frye comes forward and reveals in a press conference that she was romantically involved with Scott Peterson.

Speaker 7 Scott told me he was not married.

Speaker 4 We did have a romantic relationship.

Speaker 1 Amber Fry was a huge thing. And the thing that sticks out in my memory about that particularly is that when there was a vigil for Lacey, everybody was

Speaker 1 holding candles and singing songs. And he was at the back of the crowd and he was on the phone.
And later on, it was discovered that he was on the phone with Amber Fry.

Speaker 19 But Scott's team will point out, he did participate somewhat in the vigil.

Speaker 19 We have footage from our affiliate of him in the middle of the vigil with a tear running down his face. But he never got on the stage with the other people who were looking for her.

Speaker 18 Tonight, the news Lacey Peterson's family had been dreading ever since she disappeared last Christmas Eve.

Speaker 4 And then in April 2003, two bodies washed ashore a few miles from the marina where Scott said he went fishing the day Lacey disappeared.

Speaker 1 The body being found the way it was,

Speaker 1 everything in this story, let's put it that way, conspired to make him seem pretty darn guilty.

Speaker 4 When Scott was arrested, there is that image of him with the dyed hair. You know, he was caught with certain things.

Speaker 18 When police arrested Peterson, he was carrying $10,000, his brother's ID, and a passport application.

Speaker 1 If he was innocent, prosecutors ask, why was he evidently preparing to flee?

Speaker 4 From the very beginning, Scott has maintained his innocence. He pleaded not guilty to two counts of capital murder for the deaths of both Lacey and Connor, and his murder trial began in June of 2004.

Speaker 4 Amber testified at trial.

Speaker 8 I think that turned the tides.

Speaker 19 You know, the trial wasn't going well for the prosecution until Amber got there.

Speaker 4 As we said, Scott was found guilty and sentenced to death. Years passed, and we know that he has found a new ally in the Los Angeles Innocence Project.

Speaker 4 So what can you tell us is the latest with that?

Speaker 19 The Innocence Project has asked to test many things. The judge has said no to everything except a piece of duct tape that was found on Lacey when they recovered her body.

Speaker 19 Right now, they're looking for any DNA they can find on it.

Speaker 4 Susan, you sent a text to Sharon Rocha, Lacey Peterson's mother, about the 20th anniversary of Scott Peterson's conviction, and she replied to you. The only thing I'd want to say is remember Lacey.

Speaker 19 I feel bad for Sharon. I mean, I think it's so hard on her.

Speaker 19 And she just says she's just so tired, so tired of all this.

Speaker 1 I think there's probably no greater curse to a family than being at the middle of a story like this one.

Speaker 1 It's just a constant pain for the rest of your life if you happen to be the family of that person.

Speaker 4 Well, we will see what transpires in the months ahead. Keith and Susan, thank you so much for your insight into

Speaker 4 case that has captured the world's attention.

Speaker 1 You're welcome. Thanks, Andrea.

Speaker 4 That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. You can find out more about the cases covered on our show at our website, datelinetruecrimeweekly.com.

Speaker 4 And coming up this Friday on Dateline, a former ballerina shoots and kills her husband, leaving a jury to decide if it was self-defense. This reads like a lifetime movie.

Speaker 4 You have allegations of poison tea, stalking, murder. It goes on and on.

Speaker 6 Every time I thought this is the craziest thing I've ever heard, then I would hear something else.

Speaker 4 Watch my new one-hour mystery, Deadly Dance, airing at a special time this Friday at 10-9 Central on NBC, or stream it starting Saturday on Peacock.

Speaker 4 And be sure to listen to Keith's newest dateline original podcast, The Man in the Black Mask.

Speaker 4 It's a haunting story about a man who goes missing near the set of a horror film and a killer arrested on Halloween.

Speaker 7 I have never in my life felt fear like that.

Speaker 4 You can binge all six episodes now wherever you get your podcasts. To get ad-free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium.
Thanks for listening.

Speaker 4 Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey.
Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kuriloff.

Speaker 4 Production and fact-checking help by Sarah Kadir. Veronica Mazaka is our digital producer.
Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty.
Bryson Barnes is head of audio production.

Speaker 4 Paul Ryan is executive producer, and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

Speaker 3 See you soon.

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