A Police Interrogation in Delphi Murders. A Missing Texas Mom. And What's Next for the Menendez Brothers.

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Speaker 4 Hi, everyone. It's Andrea Canning back with the latest episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly.

Speaker 4 Episodes drop first thing every Thursday morning, and you can also find them by searching for the Dateline True Crime Weekly feed.

Speaker 4 So give us a listen and follow the show wherever you get your podcasts and tell your friends.

Speaker 5 Good morning.

Speaker 4 You're listening into Dateline's morning meeting in 30 Rockefeller Center.

Speaker 5 Halloween is a very dateline holiday, though.

Speaker 4 Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country.

Speaker 5 I just got out of the courtroom. It's a recommendation of Time Served.

Speaker 6 This case was supposed to go to the jury next week, but now they actually think it's going to go this week.

Speaker 5 It's a newsmaker for sure.

Speaker 4 I'm Andrea Canning. Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly.
It's October 31st, and here's what's on our docket.

Speaker 4 The latest in the case of a missing Texas mom. A second man has been arrested.
Her husband's business partner.

Speaker 7 The Simpsons have a room that's full of guns. They noticed one of the guns was missing.

Speaker 4 In Dateline Roundup, the top prosecutor in Los Angeles reveals the reasoning behind his decision regarding the Menendez brothers and what comes next.

Speaker 4 And we have a verdict in the so-called suitcase murder trial.

Speaker 8 So it took them less than two hours to come to the verdict they found.

Speaker 4 Plus, we've got some tips from a former Secret Service agent about the best thing to do if you think someone is following you.

Speaker 9 It makes you proactive, and quite honestly, you're going to minimize your exposure to bad things happening.

Speaker 4 But before all that, we're heading back to an Indiana courthouse on the trial of the man accused of murdering two schoolgirls. This week, the jury got to hear him tell his story for the first time.

Speaker 4 In rural Delphi, Indiana, it's week three in the double murder trial of Richard Allen. He is accused of fatally stabbing two eighth-grade girls, Abby Williams and Libby German, in 2017.

Speaker 4 It took investigators five years to zero in on Allen and charge him with the gruesome crime. Because of a gag order, we hadn't heard much of the evidence against him until now.

Speaker 4 In the first week, the prosecution told the jury they can prove that a bullet found in the ground next to the girls' bodies at the crime scene came from his gun.

Speaker 4 The defense says that's not true and that Alan is the victim of a botched investigation.

Speaker 4 This week, the jury finally got a chance to hear from Alan himself as the prosecution played clips from his police interviews in the days before his arrest.

Speaker 4 There are no cameras allowed in the courtroom, so you won't hear any of the audio from these interviews. But Dateline producer Marianne O'Donnell is here to fill us in on what she saw.
Hey, Marianne.

Speaker 10 Hey there. How are you?

Speaker 4 Good. And thank you for coming back.
I know this has been a very difficult trial to sit through.

Speaker 10 It really has been.

Speaker 4 You got to see these police interviews in court. What was in them?

Speaker 10 So let me set the stage here. Richard Allen initially talked to a park officer back in 2017, days after the girls were found.
And he he said, hey, listen, I was on the trail that day.

Speaker 10 He said, I didn't see the girls, but he said, I was there from like 1.30 to 3.30.

Speaker 10 That tip sort of got lost through the years. Now, fast forward to October 13th, 2022.

Speaker 10 And now the police have discovered that long lost tip, lead, whatever you call it, and they are focused on Richard Allen, not only because of what he said, that he put himself there that day, but they simultaneously are searching his house and they're finding a lot of guns, a lot of knives, and a lot of telephones.

Speaker 10 Why he has all those? Big question mark. So in this interview, they're trying to,

Speaker 10 very soft, very nice approach, they are trying to get him. to confess.

Speaker 10 One of the key things that Allen says that is different from what he told that officer back in 2017, There's no way I was there after 1.30. And he says that again and again.

Speaker 4 Which would be before the girls took that video of the bridge guy, their probable killer.

Speaker 10 Now, here's the question. Is he trying to revise history to put himself somewhere else when those girls are being murdered?

Speaker 4 Marriott, I was going to ask you, like, what was his demeanor like as he's being questioned? It sounds like he was hostile.

Speaker 10 It begins with him being very reasonable, very much trying, you know, to, I want to help you guys. I know you have a tough job to do.

Speaker 10 And increasingly, it gets more heated to the point where he's like, look, I keep telling you it wasn't me. And it keeps going on until it just really boils over.
And he says, am I free to leave?

Speaker 4 And this is a little crazy. He mentions Dateline.

Speaker 10 He and his wife have watched Dateline, he said. It wasn't going to be a fall guy and end up like one of those people in Dateline.

Speaker 4 Wow. And they bring him in for another interrogation a few days later by a different officer.

Speaker 10 I mean, this is a full-on interrogation where the lead investigator is telling them, remember the gun that we found at your house? Guess what?

Speaker 9 It's a match.

Speaker 4 How does he react to that?

Speaker 10 He's like, wait, whoa, that did not come from my gun. I can't explain that.
I just, I know that bullet did not come from my gun.

Speaker 4 So the lead investigator, he testifies about the second interview. He admits something that we see fairly common in these police interviews.

Speaker 4 We see the police lie to their suspects in order to elicit information.

Speaker 10 So I've heard that, you've heard that sitting in trial any number of times. Listening to it though, listening to him say that on the stand,

Speaker 10 I have to wonder how the jury heard that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, tell us what the lie was.

Speaker 10 Well, one of the things was he said, we have, you know, five witnesses who put you on that bridge.

Speaker 10 Well, there's only one woman who says she saw a guy and she actually described him different than what Richard Allen looks like.

Speaker 4 Does he bite when he hears that all these people saw him there?

Speaker 10 No, he's saying no.

Speaker 4 What did you learn about Richard Allen from these police interviews about who he is?

Speaker 10 One key thing we learned is that he has had a history of psychological issues, depression, and anxiety.

Speaker 10 Everything else he described though, he seems to be someone who, you know, raised a daughter, lived a quiet life.

Speaker 10 But it was so, it was so intense, Andrea, to listen to this man say over and over again, I didn't do this. I'm telling you, I've been straight with you from the beginning.

Speaker 4 Marianne, break this down for us then, because from what you're saying, it sounds like Alan was adamant in these police interviews that he had nothing to do with the murders.

Speaker 4 But then you heard from other witnesses this week who testified that once he was in custody, more than five years after the crime, he confessed to the murder.

Speaker 4 In fact, the prosecution has said he confessed over 60 times. That is a big flip-flop.
What did you learn about that?

Speaker 10 Well, Andrea, what we hear is we hear from, I think it's like nine guards. and a warden saying he says, hey, I killed these girls.
I'm sorry I killed these girls.

Speaker 10 Meanwhile, the guards are saying he is also acting bizarrely. He is spreading his feces over the cell room.
He is running in place while singing God bless America and at the same time confessing.

Speaker 10 His lawyers are saying, look at the conditions he's in. He comes in there not mentally all that fit to begin with.
And of course, he's breaking down.

Speaker 10 And I remember him in court, coming into court during this time, and he looked hollow-eyed. He was gaunt.
All those guards said they believed he was play acting with the behavior.

Speaker 10 But the implication was that what he was saying,

Speaker 10 I killed those girls, that you should trust. So that's kind of a weird little balance that the prosecution has to do.

Speaker 10 You want to say, on the one hand, he's faking it, but at the same time, he's saying, you know, I did this. So if he's faking it, is he faking the confession?

Speaker 10 I think the defense will also go after that when they present their case.

Speaker 4 I do not envy these jurors.

Speaker 10 I don't, but I will tell you, Andrea, they are laser-focused. This is what's so quirky about Indiana.
Once the witnesses testified, the judge turns to the jurors and says, Do you have any questions?

Speaker 10 Oh.

Speaker 10 So the jurors actually have been writing on little pieces of paper and they hand it to the bailiff and he hands it to the judge and she asks their questions and they're good questions.

Speaker 10 They're questions about DNA. They're questions about the science of ballistics.

Speaker 4 I love that because you want the jurors to really understand everything.

Speaker 10 You can't question, I think, whether or not these jurors are paying attention.

Speaker 4 All right, Marianne, thank you so much for the update and for coming back.

Speaker 10 Thanks, Andrea.

Speaker 4 Up next, the case of a missing Texas realtor is making headlines. Within days of her disappearance, her husband was behind bars facing an assault charge.

Speaker 4 Then, just last week, a second man was arrested. We've got the details.

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Speaker 4 On the afternoon of October 7th, Suzanne Clark Simpson was a no-show no-show at school pickup. It was out of character for the mother of four, who seemed like she had it all.

Speaker 4 A loving husband of 22 years, a career in luxury real estate, and the respect of her community. Suzanne had simply vanished.

Speaker 15 Clear alert has been activated for a missing mom out of Olmos Park. So here is the very latest.

Speaker 4 Her husband Brad reported her missing. But just days later, Brad was arrested, charged with family violence, and later a federal weapons charge.

Speaker 4 As the search for the missing mother of four intensifies, almost police are looking to knit the possibility of foul play.

Speaker 4 Then, just last week, a second arrest in the case hinted at something potentially much darker.

Speaker 16 Now, that story has gripped the city. It's made national news as well.

Speaker 4 Could Susanna been murdered? Here to break down what we know about the search so far is reporter Marisa Mendoza from our NBC affiliate, WOAI San Antonio.

Speaker 4 She is joining us today from her busy newsroom. Marisa, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Speaker 7 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you've been following this case since the beginning, talking to family members and investigators. To start, tell us, what do we know so far about the last time Suzanne was seen?

Speaker 7 The last time she was seen was about four weeks ago. She was going to the Argyle, which is a very fancy private club here in San Antonio.
And her and her husband were going to a party and...

Speaker 7 said that a fight transpired back at their house after the party.

Speaker 4 And some people saw this, right, in the neighborhood?

Speaker 7 One neighbor saw the couple fighting from his bedroom window, which was in the arrest affidavit for Brad Simpson.

Speaker 7 He had witnessed the couple fighting outside of their home in the driveway, and that Brad was trying to restrain her. And then after that, he heard screams.
They live across from a wooded area.

Speaker 7 The neighbor went outside, tried to look for them. He didn't see anything.
And that was the last anyone's heard from Suzanne was the screams.

Speaker 4 And this neighbor did witness Brad driving away?

Speaker 7 Yes. He told police that Brad drove away in his pickup truck, and then he returned a few hours later, maybe in the early morning hours of Monday.

Speaker 4 Okay, so one of the things police realized, things weren't exactly what they seemed with this couple. You know, things weren't as perfect as they might have appeared.

Speaker 17 to the outside world.

Speaker 7 Right. So their youngest daughter had spoken to someone at her school.
She had witnessed her parents in a a fight and noticed her dad push her mom and her dad took away her mom's phone.

Speaker 7 And so that was also in the arrest affidavit.

Speaker 4 So Brad's arrested three days after Suzanne was last seen and he's charged with this assault to a family member and unlawful restraint. That's the family violence charge that we mentioned off the top.

Speaker 4 Can you explain that for us?

Speaker 7 That stems from what the neighbor saw Sunday night. And then when they searched the home, the Simpson home, they found a short-barreled rifle, which was not properly registered.

Speaker 7 So Brad is also on a federal detainer now or a federal hold. So even if he bonds out, right, he technically can't get out.
He would go into that kind of jail system.

Speaker 4 He's being held on this multi-million dollar bond. Seems like their strategy right now is to hold him.
while they're trying to sort out where Suzanne is and what happened.

Speaker 7 Right. And keep in mind the domestic violence charges, those are misdemeanors.
And when I've spoken to attorneys, it's unheard of for the bond to be that high for them. So that's, it's a lot.

Speaker 4 So there were these charges, but then there was a second arrest in this case.

Speaker 7 Right. Last week, they arrested his longtime business partner, James Valley Cotter, on felony charges for allegedly tampering with evidence with intent to hinder an investigation.

Speaker 4 Do we know the tampering with evidence allegation, what that relates to?

Speaker 7 So police, they had a search warrant to look at Cotter's home and they found a gun. It was hidden in the master bedroom of Cotter's home behind a TV.

Speaker 7 And law enforcement is saying that when they were looking at Simpson's home, they noticed a gun was missing. Well, that gun

Speaker 7 matched a gun that was found in Cotter's home. They found on his phone that Brad had texted Cotter.
So Brad was also charged with tampering of evidence and also another weapons charge.

Speaker 7 So those are things that keep adding up with him.

Speaker 4 Brad's attorney says that Brad intends to plead not guilty. Do you know what Cotter is planning?

Speaker 7 That we don't know. I've reached out to his attorney.
I've not heard back.

Speaker 4 No one right now is saying that Suzanne has been murdered, but is that the

Speaker 4 theory of police at this point? Since she hasn't turned up, are they thinking the worst?

Speaker 7 Unfortunately, yes. They've said this is a search and recovery mission.
So a week and a half ago, they were at the Southeast Beer County landfill looking for her.

Speaker 16 Investigators say they are done searching in the east side landfill for the missing mother from Almas Park. They were confident that they would find something there.
They did not.

Speaker 16 Texas DPS officials who are leading that search say they are not done with the investigation.

Speaker 4 What does the family say about all of this? This has to be just excruciating for them not knowing where Suzanne is.

Speaker 7 I've asked them directly, I've asked a sister directly, I said, do you believe your sister is alive? And she said, no.

Speaker 7 No, I believe she's in heaven. They just say they want Suzanne's body back so that they can lay her to rest.

Speaker 4 And what's chilling about this is Suzanne's mother

Speaker 4 had a plan.

Speaker 7 When we spoke to Suzanne's mom, she had said, I came up with a plan where Suzanne would come live with me for a little while.

Speaker 4 She called me up and hoped that she'd she'd move in with me and have her little toddler go to the elementary school in my neighborhood.

Speaker 18 I never got to tell her the plan.

Speaker 4 All right, so we're looking at the next court date of November 13th, Brad's arraignment, where again, he plans, according to his attorney, to plead not guilty.

Speaker 4 We certainly hope that they find Suzanne alive. If not, that she can be brought home to her family.
Marisa, thank you so much for joining us and bringing us all of your knowledge on this case.

Speaker 7 Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Speaker 4 Next, it's Dateline Roundup. Blaine Alexander has the latest on the Menendez Brothers saga and a verdict in the so-called Sue Case murder trial.

Speaker 4 And we've got some safety tips for you from former Secret Service agent Evie Pomporis. What can you do if you think someone is following you?

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Speaker 4 Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is our very own Blaine Alexander.

Speaker 17 Hey, Andrea, good to be here.

Speaker 4 So first up, some big news out of California. Last week, George Gascon, the Los Angeles District Attorney, held a press conference to announce his decision in the case of Eric and Lyle Menendez.

Speaker 4 They are, of course, the brothers convicted of shooting their parents to death in their Beverly Hills home. Lyle was 21.
Eric was 18 at the time of the murders.

Speaker 4 They were sentenced to life without parole in 1996.

Speaker 4 We have been talking about this for a few weeks, about whether the prosecutor was going to try to get them out of prison. And now we have the beginning of that, Blaine.

Speaker 8 Yeah, Andrea, this really did feel like it was a sort of countdown because the DA had given himself about 10 days to announce a decision. decision.

Speaker 8 So the room where the press conference was held was packed with journalists and family members, and he was a little late, but he eventually came in and here's what he said.

Speaker 21 We're going to recommend to the court that the life without the possibility of parole be removed

Speaker 21 and that they will be sentenced for murder. Since they were under 26 years of age at the time that these crimes occurred, they will be eligible for parole immediately.

Speaker 4 Break it down for us. Why does the DA think after all this time, the brothers should get a new sentence?

Speaker 8 Well, so on the day of the presser, he filed a motion with the court basically laying out his reasons.

Speaker 8 And he writes that the brothers are no longer a threat to public safety, saying that they've demonstrated exceptional post-conviction conduct. I'm quoting him there.

Speaker 8 He references various programs that the brothers had been part of during their more than 30 years incarcerated. Eric runs a hospice support group and teaches meditation classes.

Speaker 8 And Lyle runs a beautification program in the prison prison where they're both serving time.

Speaker 8 So in that filing, the DA also noted that all of the Menendez family members, with one exception, do believe that the brothers were abused and that they should have their sentences reduced.

Speaker 4 The conversation around the Menendez brothers has been that, you know, times were different in the late 80s, early 90s when they were put on trial.

Speaker 4 If that was the case today, they might have gotten perhaps a manslaughter conviction rather than murder with special circumstances.

Speaker 8 Absolutely. And that's something that the DA mentioned during that press conference, that kind of change in culture.

Speaker 8 But he was also clear that this decision had nothing to do with the merits of the case or how the trial was conducted, but rather it was about the justness of the brothers sentencing all these years later.

Speaker 4 They won't be released immediately, though, right? If they are released.

Speaker 8 Right. And that's a big if.
So, no, there is a hearing set where a judge will decide whether to go along with the DA. And after that, they may need to then go in front of a parole board.

Speaker 8 But there is still one more step in all of this. The governor still has to sign off and could ultimately block the brothers' release, as he has done for a number of high-profile prisoners in the past.

Speaker 8 So Andrea, it's definitely not over yet.

Speaker 4 And this week, the brothers' lawyer filed a clemency petition with the governor. So more to come.

Speaker 4 Next up, we've got a story out of a Denver courtroom where there was a dramatic sentencing last week.

Speaker 8 Yeah, so back in August, a 37-year-old cardiologist named Stephen Matthews was convicted on sexual assault charges for drugging 11 women that he'd met through dating apps and raping eight of them.

Speaker 4 This trial had to be so painful for the victims. The cardiologist had filmed some of the attacks and they had to watch those videos in court.

Speaker 8 Oh, it's just so disturbing. Yeah, the DA there in Denver really has thanked these women for their courage in speaking.

Speaker 8 And prosecutors said that they believe that there were probably a lot more victims out there.

Speaker 4 Several of them spoke at Matthews' sentencing. They did.

Speaker 8 It was very emotional.

Speaker 9 I developed debilitating anxiety and PTSD when having sexual encounters where men touching me made me tremble and cry.

Speaker 4 What sentence did he ultimately get?

Speaker 8 The judge really threw the book at him. He got 158 years in state prison.

Speaker 22 Mr. Matthews, you know, you have diminished this world.
You have dimmed many of its lights. You've hurt our society, and it's a darker place because of you.

Speaker 8 And his lawyer has said that he will appeal this conviction.

Speaker 4 Lastly, a conclusion to a story we've been watching for a while on True Crime Weekly. We have a verdict in the Sarah Boone trial.

Speaker 4 She is the Florida woman who was accused of killing her boyfriend by zipping him into a rolling suitcase and leaving him to die.

Speaker 4 She argued he had physically abused her and she suffered from battered spouse syndrome.

Speaker 8 Yeah, but the jury didn't buy it. They found her guilty of second-degree murder.
She's facing life in prison when she's sentenced in December.

Speaker 8 Remember, this is after she rejected a plea deal that would have sent her away for only 15 years.

Speaker 4 Okay, thanks so much, Blaine, for coming on this week's roundup.

Speaker 17 Absolutely.

Speaker 4 Have you ever looked over your shoulder afraid that someone was following you? Most people have. With the clocks falling back this weekend, it'll start getting darker even earlier.

Speaker 4 So we thought we'd ask our safety expert, former Secret Service agent Evie Pomporas, for her tips on what to do in this horrifying scenario. Hey, Evie.
Hello.

Speaker 4 As I mentioned, we've all had that feeling like someone's behind you, maybe following you, maybe not, but it's a weird feeling that you get. What should you do in that situation when you are unsure?

Speaker 9 You should absolutely trust that feeling. Don't second guess yourself.
And perhaps nobody is following you. But that feeling might also be telling you the environment that you're in right now.

Speaker 9 is generally unsafe. So it's telling you, be cautious, be aware, and maybe remove myself from here.
It doesn't make you weak, it makes you aware and it makes you proactive.

Speaker 9 And quite honestly, you're gonna minimize your exposure to bad things happening.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so what should you do? Should you ever confront the person or should you just keep walking faster? What do you do?

Speaker 9 I will say it depends on the scenario. So, let's say someone is following you.

Speaker 9 If I feel somebody is too close and there's distance, I'll cross the street, I move away, or I'll turn down a different block.

Speaker 9 Now, if somebody makes contact with you, if they come close to you or they're speaking to you, what you want to portray to them to some degree is not me, not today. Predators want easy prey.

Speaker 9 They want easy targets. And if they think you are a little bit off or a little bit crazy, guess what? They will leave you alone.
And the other thing people can also do is yell, scream, make noise.

Speaker 4 And yeah, they don't don't want that attention on them.

Speaker 9 They don't want the attention. And sometimes these predators, they're not that strong.
You envision them as being this really horrific, strong, powerful human being.

Speaker 9 The monster will tell you most of the time they are not.

Speaker 4 What classes do you recommend for self-defense? What do you think are the best ones for helping you out there in the real world?

Speaker 9 With self-defense classes, simple ones are the best. But what I find sometimes is they teach you these really confusing moves.

Speaker 9 And when you're in a scenario where your stress is up, you're not going to remember them. That's why I always tell people, think simple.
Okay, somebody's coming at me. Claw their eyes.

Speaker 9 Okay, scratch their face. Bite their neck.
Sounds savage, but it will do the trick. Kick their shins.
You want to think of like, where can I strike this person?

Speaker 9 And the whole goal always is to strike and run away. Your job is not to sit there and engage and have a one-on-one.
Or I need a few seconds to get out of there.

Speaker 4 And so, and you say avoid the chest area. Or if you're going after a man, go after the groin area.

Speaker 9 So let's do this kind of like, let's go in reverse. We're going to go from bottom up.
Areas to strike, top of somebody's foot, the front of somebody's shin. Why? Because there's bone under that skin.

Speaker 9 Now, as you move further up, groin area is good, but you have to have power to do that. And that's really hard.
And you have to come close. I know I sound repetitive.
Scratch, claw, bite in the face.

Speaker 4 What can you have with you in your purse or in your pocket that could help keep you safe?

Speaker 9 You know, those personal alarms are really good. It's these alarms you can put on your keychain and it draws attention, and that person instinctually will turn around and go.

Speaker 9 Those are really simple ways to keep yourself safe.

Speaker 4 Yeah, those things are high-pitched,

Speaker 4 those alarms. All right, Evie,

Speaker 4 as always, incredibly helpful tips to keep all of us safe. We thank you so much for your expertise in this area.

Speaker 9 Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 4 That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. To find out more about the cases covered on the show, head to our website, datelinetruecrimeweekly.com.

Speaker 4 And coming up this Friday on Dateline, a suspect goes to trial more than a decade after the murder of Karen Swift, a Tennessee mom of four.

Speaker 7 It was so frustrating year after year, and there was still not an arrest made.

Speaker 4 Did investigators get their guy? Watch Keith's new two-hour mystery after the Halloween party, airing this Friday at 9-8 Central on NBC or stream it Saturday on Peacock.

Speaker 4 And be sure to listen to Keith's newest Dateline original podcast, The Man in the Black Mask.

Speaker 4 It's a haunting story about a man who goes missing near the set of a horror film and a killer arrested on Halloween. You can binge all six episodes now wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 4 To get ad-free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Thanks for listening.
Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson.

Speaker 4 Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kuriloff.
Production and fact-checking help by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer.

Speaker 4 Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty.
Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer.
And Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

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