Talking Dateline: Down the Rabbit Hole

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Speaker 1 Hi, everybody. It's Josh Mankowitz, and we're talking Dayline today

Speaker 1 with Keith Morrison. Very somber-looking Keith Morrison.

Speaker 1 I'm not somber. I'm perfectly happy.
Content to be here. I could be a hundred other places, and here I am.

Speaker 1 Perhaps you could supply us with a list of those places later.

Speaker 1 So, this episode is called Down the Rabbit Hole, and it is the story of the 2012 murder of Mary Ann Murphy in her home in Humble, Texas, and the twists and turns.

Speaker 1 And from what I can discern, roughly one jillion lies that led detectives to her killers.

Speaker 1 Now, if you have not listened to the broadcast yet, it is the episode right below this one on the list of podcasts that you just chose from. So go there and listen to it.

Speaker 1 Or if you want to watch it on TV, you can stream it on Peacock and then come back here.

Speaker 1 Now, today, Keith has an extra clip that he's going to play for us from the jailhouse phone calls part of this. Oh, boy, that's the good part.

Speaker 1 And also, like many other things in this story, very hard to believe. And then Keith and I are also going to answer some of your questions about the broadcast from social media.

Speaker 1 So stick around for that.

Speaker 1 So let's talk Dayline. Okay.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 let's start at the top. From the beginning,

Speaker 1 watching this, I was thinking, man, I hope, like, this feels so obviously like it's going to turn out Carrie killed her mom and lied about everything else.

Speaker 1 And I'm thinking, like, how are you going to do that for two hours? Because, like, I already suspect her in, like, the first 10 minutes. You're just a suspicious guy.
I am a suspicious guy.

Speaker 1 But another guy confessed to it. So why should we? Well,

Speaker 1 before that, I was just thinking, like, it's so obviously her, right? But then it's just one twist after another and one crazy lie after another. I lost track.

Speaker 1 I didn't even try to count them all because there were, yeah, it was one after another after another.

Speaker 1 And I mean, maybe it's because we've been doing this for such a long time, but I mean, when I see things like the note left in the house and I ran outside because my mom is, you know, being killed and I slip on a piece of paper on the lawn and I pick it up, right?

Speaker 1 The minute I heard that, I'm like, okay, well, she's obviously involved

Speaker 1 because that is too much storytelling, which is a trap a lot of people end up falling into. You're talking too much.
much.

Speaker 1 What it seemed to me to be was evidence that more than one person was doing this planning. They came up with ideas and okay, if that idea doesn't work, then do this.
You know,

Speaker 1 if Zane was not part of this and he wasn't, right? Then Carrie had no way of knowing that he was going to cop to this. She must have thought, wow, this is my lucky day.

Speaker 1 I believe she did think that, yes. This guy I lied about is actually going along with the lie.
Yeah, go figure, right? I mean,

Speaker 1 he kind of talked himself into the jailhouse.

Speaker 1 He did, yeah, he did. But

Speaker 1 his family knew that very day that he couldn't possibly have done it and told the police so and provided proof that he was actually at home playing a video game.

Speaker 1 You try to sort of explain it to the audience, but I still don't get it. Like, why did he lie? Why did Zane confess to this? Well, actually, he didn't do it.
He knew he didn't do it.

Speaker 1 What was his relationship with Carrie? I mean, was he trying to take the heat off her? What was going on?

Speaker 1 Strangest darn thing. Again, this is all spoilers, right?

Speaker 1 But Carrie was claiming that Zane was stalking her, that Zane was obsessed with her. Zane had no idea what she was talking about.

Speaker 1 Well, because it felt from the beginning like the stalking story was something that she set up in advance to be an alibi. Yeah.
It's all BS.

Speaker 1 But they put him in front of a questioner, and he denied, denied, denied, denied he had anything to do with this.

Speaker 1 And then they took him into the polygraph machine, and all that is recorded is that he failed the test, failed it miserably.

Speaker 1 But also, interestingly enough, the person who actually committed the crime passed the test. So that might tell you something about polygraphy.
Well, it does. We don't know how hard he was pushed.

Speaker 1 We do know, however, that when he was picked up and brought in for questioning,

Speaker 1 it was the task force that picked him up, and he was terrified when he was pulled out of the house and taken down to the station.

Speaker 1 But presumably, one of the questions

Speaker 1 that he was asked was, you know, were you there when Marianne was killed? Do you have anything to do with this? Do you have any knowledge of the planning?

Speaker 1 You know, were you, were you, you know, I mean, and we've talked about this before, frequently polygraphs are at their most useful when people refuse to take them because that generally is taken by law enforcement or can be taken as a sort of sign that they're hiding something.

Speaker 1 And people, sometimes people, willingness to take polygraphs, exactly the same thing. Like, that's a good sign.
What he was up to, I literally do not understand.

Speaker 1 I mean, was this a case of police pressing too hard? Because sometimes, you know, particularly with kids or people who are not veterans of the criminal justice system,

Speaker 1 false confessions are easier to get. Zane is actually a perfect example of the kind of person who tends to confess falsely.
He was vulnerable without a doubt.

Speaker 1 But all indications were that the initial interrogation was not the sort of harsh thing that would lead somebody, even a vulnerable person, to falsely confess.

Speaker 1 And because they had to wait to be sure that they could undo that confession.

Speaker 1 And this brings up another subject: that once a person, once usually a young person, has confessed to a crime, even if the police are aware that that confession is false within hours of it.

Speaker 1 No, no, it's like a boulder coming downhill. Oh, absolutely.
And it takes a long, long time and a lot of legal bouncing around before finally they can get the confession wiped.

Speaker 1 So many people need to hear when they are facing interrogation by police is one, retain legal counsel and two,

Speaker 1 try not to tell multiple and conflicting stories. Well, those are two very good pieces of advice.

Speaker 1 I will never understand why people feel the need just because they're put in a room surrounded by a couple of detectives to answer every question. You say, whoa, I'm pretty scared.

Speaker 1 I want my lawyer here to help me.

Speaker 1 Right. So,

Speaker 1 why, who are you talking to? Who are you blowing a kiss to? It was my delightful and charming wife who just brought me a beautiful big cup of tea. She's the best.
Tell her home. She is that.
Yes.

Speaker 1 I'll do that. Yeah.
Why she puts up with you, we literally don't. There aren't enough talking date lines to explain.
No, probably not. No.

Speaker 1 I've never understood why, and I've stopped asking because, you know,

Speaker 1 as long as she's there, it's the main thing. Hard to understand.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 Back to the story. One of the things I thought really worked in this was showing the detective going back to the house at night, looking around.

Speaker 1 Now, obviously, that was not done at the time of the murder. How do we make that work? Well, the new family living in the house was happy to help, which is not something you always run into, for sure.

Speaker 1 No, frequently, they don't want you there. Yeah, of course.
And who can blame them, right? They don't want the news spreading around even more than it might already be.

Speaker 1 And there was a location fee involved, of course. But the question remains: why do some people feel comfortable living in a house where such a heinous crime has occurred, and other people don't?

Speaker 1 Just an interesting little quirk about human nature. I don't know what the answer is.

Speaker 1 When we come back, we have an extra clip from Rebecca and Carrie's jailhouse phone calls.

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Speaker 1 Some stories are like, you know,

Speaker 1 stories that go back centuries. This one really was a version of a Shakespeare play.
This could be a Shakespeare play, because it's Romeo and Juliet with a different outcome.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 all the kind of the side characters and the little avenues you go down that are false trails, the rabbit holes, are there

Speaker 1 in a way that they would be in a Shakespearean play. It's a tragedy, clearly.
but just fascinating to see what the details were.

Speaker 1 Human beings don't change all that much over the centuries in some particular ways.

Speaker 1 Were you able to tell exactly when

Speaker 1 Carrie's relationship with her mother went sort of not just bad, but homicidally bad? I mean, how long before Marianne was killed?

Speaker 1 I got the distinct impression that it was when Deputy Hooper came over to arrest the girlfriend, Rebecca, and take her downtown and charge her.

Speaker 1 That at that point, it was going to be all out war. And the planning began.

Speaker 1 This is the most shocking part of it all, that a daughter can actually

Speaker 1 get together with somebody else and plan to commit a crime of that sort.

Speaker 1 And then, as she admitted at the tail end of things, something Rebecca apparently didn't even know, is that she was right there watching the whole thing go down.

Speaker 1 Clearly, there was some agreement that I'll do the crime and you don't have to be there. But then she did.

Speaker 1 did.

Speaker 1 And the other thing about it was that after professing their love to each other hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times

Speaker 1 on these phone calls from jail, that particular young woman, Carrie, was quite naive about what law enforcement might in the end do and went on living her life.

Speaker 1 I mean, she just the atrocity which would have been committed did not seem to matter a whole lot to her.

Speaker 1 I don't like the, you know, I'm no psychologist, and I don't like to throw around words like sociopath, but she clearly understood the difference between right and wrong.

Speaker 1 But what she was facing, she did not seem to understand, and it did not seem to bother her at all that she had done that to her own mother. They still felt that they could get out of it somehow.

Speaker 1 Their conversations, their jailhouse conversations, which were, I mean, phenomenal,

Speaker 1 I can only imagine being one of the police officers listening to them. But they seemed to know enough that they had to cover their tracks most of the time, and they only leaked occasionally.

Speaker 1 But of course, the occasional leak is all they need to find out what they need to find out. It was that recorded phone call that sort of led prosecutors to think to themselves, okay, this is it.

Speaker 1 We can go ahead now. Yes, they'd been waiting for something just like that.

Speaker 1 They'd been waiting for that moment when there would be a conscious knowledge of what they had done expressed over the telephone in such a way that they could play that in court and a jury would say, say, oh, yes, I can see now what happened here, and find them guilty.

Speaker 1 They didn't have to go that far in the end. But that's why they were waiting.
They were waiting for that for a long time.

Speaker 1 This feels like a good place to listen to the extra sound that we have. This did not make the episode.

Speaker 1 This occurred when Rebecca was locked up and Carrie was out on bond, and there's a couple of pieces of sound here.

Speaker 1 In the first, Carrie's talking about how she protected Rebecca when her mom, when Marianne caught them in the house.

Speaker 1 And in the second, they're discussing how prosecutors offered them a deal that they don't want to take. So let's listen to those.

Speaker 5 Like, well, my mom tried to hurt you when we were in the bathroom and she kept like, and I told you to back up in the corner.

Speaker 5 Like, I moved you behind me. And you kept trying to push yourself in front of me.
And I told my mom that she wasn't going to touch you.

Speaker 5 Remember? Oh, no.

Speaker 5 Right before she caught the cop?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I know. I was like, you're not going to touch her.

Speaker 5 She's like, oh, yeah, you love her? I was like, yeah, I'm not going to lay a hand on you. She's going to have to go through me first.
See how protective I am of you? Jesus Christ.

Speaker 5 Since we're so young, they're trying to offer us so much time to try and make a confession. Basically saying, okay, well, if you make a confession, we'll cut your time in half.

Speaker 5 So they're trying to play us, but it's not working. Well, it's not because we're a lot smarter than what they think that we are.

Speaker 1 Yeah, a lot smarter than

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Police rely on that, you know, others thinking that they are smarter than the cops.

Speaker 1 You've seen it a ton of times. I've seen it a ton of times where

Speaker 1 a good detective will allow him or herself to be seen as kind of a dope.

Speaker 1 It's the Colombo approach, I guess, and it puts people at ease and then they get the impression that they're the smart one in the room.

Speaker 1 I got to say, it is

Speaker 1 hearing a defendant say, yeah, we're a lot smarter than the cops.

Speaker 1 On a phone call that the cops are listening to and recording. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think the

Speaker 1 answer to that.

Speaker 1 You know, one of the things is

Speaker 1 kind of a larger thing that came out of this for me was the sort of the way that lying is perceived now. You know, lying used to be something that was inherently shameful.

Speaker 1 You know, like George Washington couldn't tell a lie, right?

Speaker 1 Today, people can't tell the difference and it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 The not mattering is disturbing.

Speaker 1 The people involved in this,

Speaker 1 particularly Carrie and Rebecca, seemed to like Carrie in particular, it doesn't matter. Like, I'll say whatever I want to say if it'll get me out of it.
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 And her brother, by the way, was very slow to accept that, and it breaks his heart even to talk about it now. I thought he was a great character, and I thought you did a great job with him.

Speaker 1 And I loved how you could sort of see him evolve along with her stories evolving through the entire episode. Because, you know, he starts out like, I know her, this could never have happened.

Speaker 1 And at the end, he's like, I barely have any contact with her because of what she did.

Speaker 1 And we've covered plenty of family members who will not accept what was proven in court and admitted on wiretaps and testified to. But he's not one of them.

Speaker 1 He knows what's out there. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It's like a bomb went off in that family.
And it's often the case when a murder occurs. It's just the whole thing comes apart.

Speaker 1 His father is in an institution. His sister is in prison for a very long time.
His mother is dead. He's trying to build a life, but he's the only one left.

Speaker 1 And he has all that emotional baggage to carry around. So I felt for that guy a lot.

Speaker 1 I love the way that you guys ended the episode, which was talking about her. Like, hey, look, let's be clear on a couple of things.
Like, those last few minutes of her life, that was not her life.

Speaker 1 And, you know, that she had this whole other life and she was

Speaker 1 a wife and a mom and a daughter and a friend. And, you know, one of the things that gets lost sometimes in coverage of murders is who the victim was on all the days that the crime wasn't committed.

Speaker 1 And I think that's important because I think that's a bigger part of their life than just the way they died. Absolutely true.
Yeah, that's quite right.

Speaker 1 After the break, we are going to come back and answer some of your questions from social media.

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Speaker 1 Okay, on to social media.

Speaker 1 Very interesting that the first question on social media is from our friend Anxiety Fries Kim, who we love. And it's about, do you have your big boy pants on?

Speaker 1 She says, I can't think of a worse way to tell your son his mother is dead. And I got to tell you, I can't either.

Speaker 1 That is not in any parenting notebook or handbook that I'm aware of.

Speaker 1 It did not surprise the son, though, because it didn't surprise Scott at all. That's kind of the way his dad would communicate.

Speaker 1 He was an interesting dude, a loving man who had trouble expressing it, a person who was happy to be married to Mary Ann, but had a drinking problem.

Speaker 1 They'd had some issues in their marriage, but really, deep down, he was happy to be where he was.

Speaker 1 And as it turned out, not being able to be where he was, not having his wife anymore, was too much for him. He couldn't take it.

Speaker 1 I thought when he said, when Scott quoted him as saying, I can fix a lot of things, but I can't fix this, that was just heartbreaking. It was.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And on the other side of deploring his comment about, do you have your big boy pants on, is Bobby G62 says, sounds like dad had good advice that night, which is true in that sense, which was

Speaker 1 a torrent of bad news was coming. So I think, I guess, the audience had some mixed emotions on that.

Speaker 1 Favorite Auntie Jen

Speaker 1 tells us, she says, I heard one line from the daughter, and I started putting my money on her as the killer. No affect emotion, no tears in an interview right after your mother is brutally murdered.

Speaker 1 She seemed unaware that investigators are going to be looking not just at her words, but everything else about her as she tells that story. She and Deputy Hooper would be on the same page there.

Speaker 1 Here's an interesting question that came in from Instagram. It's from Melly Melliopola.

Speaker 1 Melly. M-E-O-Y-O-P-L-E-A.

Speaker 1 But,

Speaker 1 and said, I need to know if Josh and Keith don't get along. On the podcast, it sounds like playful animosity with an underneath layer of disdain.

Speaker 1 I would object to that.

Speaker 1 I would object to that very strongly. It's not an underlying layer of disdain.
It's disdain. It's disdain.
Yeah. Well, now I'm going to tell.
I'm

Speaker 1 Character will out. Now I'm going to tell a secret, which is.
Oh, boy. Yeah, you're going to hate this.

Speaker 1 Everybody on Dateline, everybody, camera crews, producers, APs, everybody, everybody loves Keith. And I'm no different.
I do, too.

Speaker 1 That's about the nicest thing anybody's ever said to me. And that is Talking Dateline for this week.
Wow. Keith, thank you.
Thanks, everybody, for listening.

Speaker 1 Remember, if you have any questions for us about anything on the broadcast, any of our stories, or any cases that you think we should cover, you can reach out to us on social at dateline NBC.

Speaker 1 See you Fridays on Dateline on NBC. And

Speaker 1 remember to listen to Keith's all-new podcast, which is called The Man in the Black Mask. Yeah, or Josh said correctly, The Man in the Black Mask.
Okay, I don't have your voice, okay?

Speaker 1 But let me do my best. All right,

Speaker 1 try to listen to Keith's new podcast, The Man in the Black Mask.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah. Yeah, the first two episodes are available for free.

Speaker 1 I'm going to go back to that. First two episodes are available to listen to for free wherever you get your podcasts.

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