Talking Dateline: The Butterfly

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Speaker 3 Hi, everybody. I'm Josh Mankiewicz, and we're talking Dateline today with Andrea Canning.

Speaker 4 Hi, Josh.

Speaker 3 So, this episode is called The Butterfly.

Speaker 3 This is the season premiere episode, isn't it?

Speaker 4 Yes, it is.

Speaker 3 Now, if you've not seen The Butterfly, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So, go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here.

Speaker 3 So, for this talking Dateline, Andrea has brought a clip from her interview with investigator Paul Newton about breaking into that glass-blowing class to arrest the suspect.

Speaker 4 My favorite extra clip

Speaker 4 of all the talking date lines we've ever done.

Speaker 3 How's that for a tease? That's a pretty high bar. Just briefly to recap, Caitlin Markham disappeared in August 2011 from her home in Fairfield, Ohio.

Speaker 3 Her friends and family knew right away that something was wrong.

Speaker 3 It would take years, which is something we'll talk about, to finally put together a theory as to exactly what happened and to figure out who killed her, which was her fiancé, John Carter.

Speaker 3 So let's talk Dateline.

Speaker 4 Let's do it.

Speaker 3 So the thing that leaped out at me about this episode is that like other good dateline episodes, this showcases both

Speaker 3 some very good police work and some not very good police work.

Speaker 4 I mean, I think most people would agree with you. The one thing that I couldn't believe, just based on all the date lines we've done, was the computer.

Speaker 4 You know, he says he's watching the show and the investigators feel like the computer backs that up. Well, obviously, if you're savvy with technology, with computers,

Speaker 4 you can set up your computer in a way that shows that you're watching something.

Speaker 3 They could tell that a show was playing on his computer, but of course, they can't tell whether somebody's actually watching it.

Speaker 4 And we should say that we asked the Fairfield Police Department to do an interview they declined but they did tell us they always considered carter a suspect but just didn't have enough evidence and they say they weren't the only ones other investigators came to the same conclusion they said also

Speaker 3 how did they not talk to the dad until the sort of second go-around like when the dad says yeah i wish you'd asked me these questions years ago like they hadn't interviewed him they didn't really i mean they didn't really they talked to him,

Speaker 4 but like, I just don't know how in-depth they talked to him. But then it was the Indiana State Police.
They said the dad has to be looked at as well.

Speaker 4 Um, of course, you know, Dave had nothing to do with it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, no, I mean, I actually thought you had a great rapport with him, by the way, in this.

Speaker 3 I, I, I, I came away like, really, I thought, you know, he seemed like a great guy, and you guys seem to really connect.

Speaker 4 You know what? He's just, Dave is the salt of the earth. Ohio guy, just working hard, raising his kids, you know, doing the best he can.

Speaker 4 Like, he's just a good person, you know, because they, as he said in the show, they were struggling to have children. And so she was so special to them.
He had such a bond with her.

Speaker 4 And this just crushed him.

Speaker 3 Finding Caitlin's remains,

Speaker 3 you know, there had to be a time when that family thought they were never going to have anything or anyone to bear.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, you certainly start to lose hope, right?

Speaker 4 And it took, as it often does, just a stranger, you know, in in the woods and there he finds the body that's the kind of the middle of nowhere where they where they found her also weird is how one of her friends goes out there right and they find

Speaker 4 her remains turns out like they didn't recover all of her and then dave's you know on his hands and knees with a strainer from his like a kitchen I mean, what the heck?

Speaker 3 Yeah, and you said that in the interview. Like, I mean, I don't know how this is supposed to go, but it's definitely not supposed to be the dad.

Speaker 3 You know, when you think about people, when you think about police or law enforcement agencies, you know, doing recovery at a crime scene, we've all seen too many movies and too many TV shows.

Speaker 3 And you have this image in your mind of like all these people sifting through

Speaker 3 the dirt at the crime scene. But in fact, like a lot of agencies, particularly smaller ones, they've got a couple.

Speaker 3 you know, and people are doing the best they can. And maybe some of those people are volunteers,

Speaker 3 you know, from the local criminology department at the nearest college. I mean, we all know DNA results don't come back in one minute on a machine on your desk.
That's TV fiction.

Speaker 3 But you don't think about this as being TV fiction, too, which is like

Speaker 3 every crime scene is not processed as thoroughly in real life as it is on television.

Speaker 3 And somebody else, too. In the episode, you talk about this mysterious benefactor who helped pay for a private investigator to look into the case.

Speaker 3 I can't think of another case in which somebody who was a third party paid for a private eye and it really did make a difference. Do you know who that was?

Speaker 4 I don't know. We may have known the name, like someone may have told us.
I don't know, but they want to remain private. So we just know that they're wealthy and they read about it on Facebook and

Speaker 3 wanted to help. Hey, look, I mean,

Speaker 3 that's a great thing for people to do philanthropically to

Speaker 3 hire a private eye with that 10-gallon hat, which was sensational. Jay Ryan Green.

Speaker 3 I'm guessing, right? You tell me if I'm right.

Speaker 3 I'm guessing that there was a point in which Ryan Greene was sitting down for the interview and he said to you and the producer, you guys want me to take my hat off?

Speaker 3 And you were like, no, no, no, leave it on. That's what I like.
You like the color.

Speaker 4 Yeah, no, I always encourage to keep that, you know, the 10-gallon hat on or whatever, whatever, you know, that person's comfortable with. It's.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, it's, I mean, because you have this guy who's coming to the rescue who's literally wearing a white hat. I mean, how great is that?

Speaker 4 Yeah. And he was a good guy, too.
He really got invested and put his best foot forward and did make some progress.

Speaker 3 I think definitely make some progress.

Speaker 4 Josh, I have an idea. How about when we retire from this job, you and I open a private investigator agency, and it can be Mankowitz and Canning, PIs?

Speaker 3 What do you think?

Speaker 3 You don't want top billing? No. It's your idea.

Speaker 4 It doesn't matter. Canning and Mankowitz, Mankwitz and Canning.
With all the things that we've learned on Dateline, I feel like we could be good private investigators if we put our minds together.

Speaker 4 What do you think?

Speaker 3 I'm for it. And maybe we could borrow some of that hidden camera gear and stuff that we use because that might come in handy.
Yeah. It's a kind of a kind of a

Speaker 3 post-Dateline career. I like that.
I think that's good.

Speaker 3 When we come back, Andrea has a clip that did not make our story, an interview with the investigator who ended up cracking this case about the very unusual arrest of a suspect.

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Speaker 3 Opposites attract, and it certainly seemed to be the case for me. And I noticed this right off between Caitlin and John.
Like, she is creative and going places, and he's kind of a lump.

Speaker 3 Like, any idea what she ever saw in him?

Speaker 4 I think what happened was, you know, it's a high school love, and

Speaker 4 you don't think in in high school as much about what are those person's hopes and dreams and what kind of job do they have and how much money are they making.

Speaker 4 And, you know, in high school, it's just you like someone because you like them. And then they just happen to stay together.

Speaker 4 And then I think the older they got and the more serious they got, I think then it started to hit home to her that, hey, this guy's not a go-getter. Where in high school just doesn't matter as much.

Speaker 4 I think that's right.

Speaker 3 The two sides to John Carter, I mean, he seems to be this kind of like,

Speaker 3 you know, kind of like

Speaker 3 a beanbag chair. Yeah.
Yeah. Sort of here, nor there.
Yeah. But turns out he's got this edge to him.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And it, you know, and that, and that video of him yelling at the next girlfriend

Speaker 3 was, I mean, that really told you all

Speaker 4 even though it wasn't.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah, because I know I don't think a lot of people were really aware of that.

Speaker 4 Then you get to see it for yourself, like what he, the person he's capable of becoming.

Speaker 3 Who is the opposite of the guy in the interview room? Yeah. You know, who seems like this sort of like friendly guy, like, come on, I want my own life back.
I mean,

Speaker 3 I would say, you know, when you compare him to the, you know, the pantheon of terrible actors that we've seen in those in those interrogation rooms lying about what they did or didn't do,

Speaker 3 he's actually pretty near the top because he's the killer and also he did a pretty good job of seeming as if he was just this kind of like hapless guy.

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 4 to a point, it kind kind of depended i guess on how well you knew him you know the the detectives they don't they don't know this guy you know they don't know what his baseline is so they you know they just kind of i guess assumed he seemed like not the kind of guy yeah we don't know

Speaker 3 let's talk about the voice stress analysis i remember when this came along um is it any more admissible in court than a polygraph i don't think so i i i've never heard of i've never i'm sure it falls in the polygraph bucket you know i don't i don't think yeah because i've never heard of it being used in a in a case before and like polygraphs are generally not admissible in court they're usually not admissible as evidence at a criminal trial sometimes polygraphs are admissible in um

Speaker 3 in a during a pallet issues but usually not as an investigative tool when people are actually going to be charged or not charged generally law enforcement tends to use polygraphs as a test of somebody's willingness to cooperate Like, if they will take a polygraph, that generally tells you when they fail, too.

Speaker 4 I mean, it's a bad sign.

Speaker 3 And that's a lever to use in interrogations. It's like, hey, by the way, we know you're lying now.
So why don't you tell us the real story?

Speaker 4 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
My husband's best friend from growing up, who was in our wedding, he

Speaker 4 does polygraphs for the FBI. And he goes all over the place to administer them.

Speaker 3 And how many times have you had him polygraph your husband?

Speaker 4 You know, hey,

Speaker 4 you're putting ideas in my head. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, this is stuff that we're going to have to deal with when we are operating that PI agency.

Speaker 4 We'll get Jim in to help us with my husband's.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. Yeah.
Eventually, Paul Newton gets on the case and then one senses that everything changes. Yes.

Speaker 3 The minute you meet Paul Newton in this story, like it's obvious that that's the guy you want on the case of somebody that you care about.

Speaker 4 You want the guy who says, I like a challenge. And this is, that's what he got.

Speaker 4 And Paul Newton, you know, he was on it, chasing down everything, rereading everything, going over all the evidence again, talking to people. I mean, he did what was needed to be done.

Speaker 4 And, you know, and the, and the DA let him run with it, you know, and said, let's go. So we have an extra clip

Speaker 4 as, as teased, as promised.

Speaker 4 This is about the, when the arrest happens. We only played a really small snippet in the show.

Speaker 6 I have a sergeant with me, so I walk in the front door.

Speaker 4 Do you get to do the honors?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 6 That was what was nice. So we walk in, a younger girl working the front desk.
I said, where's John Carter? She goes, he's in the back teaching a class.

Speaker 6 I said, take me to him now.

Speaker 3 And the owner goes, hey, what's going on here?

Speaker 6 I said, take me to John now. She walks me to the back.

Speaker 6 And she goes, he's actually teaching a class. I said, I'll be gentle.

Speaker 4 Oh, my goodness. Can you imagine being in that glass blowing class?

Speaker 6 Well, there was a bunch of elderly old women in there.

Speaker 4 What's the look on the elderly?

Speaker 6 They have no idea what's going on. I put the cuffs on.
I said, you're under arrest. And as I'm walking out, the young girl goes, why is he being arrested? I said, he's being arrested for murder.

Speaker 7 And she yells, no.

Speaker 4 Like, no, as in, like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe this is happening. Yes.

Speaker 6 It's something you would see on police TV.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And did you happen to catch a look at the elderly lady's faces?

Speaker 6 I told him I was sorry. I did tell them I was sorry before I walked out.
I said, I'm sorry.

Speaker 6 Now it's time to go to work.

Speaker 3 You know, justice was denied for a long time to that family, but on the plus side, you know, John Carter, he was eventually locked up.

Speaker 4 Yeah, well, it's kind of justice, though, with like an asterisk, right? Because he ultimately pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter and got three years. I mean, that's it.
Right.

Speaker 4 And, you know, the DA definitely took some heat from some people who thought you should have tried and, you know, gone to trial. And he felt like getting him to admit what he admitted was

Speaker 4 justice in this case. So.

Speaker 3 Well, you know, that is a very familiar refrain from people is that why couldn't the DA just go into court and try for a higher charge and see what, you know, in other words, we're saying we'd feel better if at least he were charged with murder, even if he weren't convicted of murder.

Speaker 3 Well, two things. One,

Speaker 3 if he beats a murder charge, then they walk out of court and they go ahead living their life and they don't suffer any consequences at all.

Speaker 3 And second, prosecutors have an ethical requirement to not do that thing that people would like, which is like, let's just throw the spaghetti at the refrigerator and see if it sticks. I mean,

Speaker 3 you're not supposed to bring a case unless you have

Speaker 3 a very strong, more than like 50% belief that you're going to get a conviction.

Speaker 4 Right. And let's not forget: if it wasn't for the prosecutor's office, John Carter would not have been charged.

Speaker 4 But yeah, so there was no doubt that there were things, obstacles that the prosecution would have had to face. They didn't want to roll the dice.

Speaker 4 They wanted to get him on the record saying, I did this. And that's what they did.
And you know what? Dave, who as we mentioned is now engaged and Allie is teaching. And

Speaker 3 they,

Speaker 4 as imperfect as the ending was

Speaker 4 from a justice standpoint, they seemed relieved.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 that was going to be my question.

Speaker 3 It feels like they're sort of okay with this, even though he's not going away for the rest of his life.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think they just wanted him to have some kind of accountability.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 they got that accountability, right?

Speaker 4 They got him in prison, but it's something, right?

Speaker 3 Well, the family is fighting for something they call Caitlin's Law, which would extend the statute of limitations on missing persons cases because, you know, with the idea that like, you know, why should somebody who succeeded in hiding the body and thus escaping the statute of limitations benefit from that, which is an interesting, interesting argument.

Speaker 4 Yeah, the law is, it's, you know, we see the law always changing

Speaker 4 through these date lines because family members see loopholes or things that don't make sense and they start

Speaker 4 and they start getting lawmakers on board. And next thing you know, in that state, there's a law named after their loved one because they fought for it.
And it'll help future families down the road.

Speaker 4 And I just wish the best for them. And I hope now,

Speaker 4 even though they don't have Caitlin back, you know, they planted the tree. They see the butterflies.

Speaker 4 I hope that they can have some peace now going forward and that, you know, they can take a breath that all this part of it is over.

Speaker 3 Andrea, thank you. After the break, Andrea is going to be joined by Dateline producer Justin Smith, who worked on this story to answer your social media questions about the butterfly.

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Speaker 4 Welcome back, everyone. As we are taping this, Josh is working on another story for the new season.

Speaker 4 So to help me answer some of your questions about the episode from social media, I have invited star producer Justin Smith.

Speaker 4 He is, of course, the producer of The Butterfly. Hey, Justin, thank you for being here.

Speaker 7 Hey, Andrea, how are you?

Speaker 4 Good. Okay, so it appears the most asked question

Speaker 4 by our viewers was about John Carter's three-year sentence. Jersey Girl, 96, wrote this on X.
Three years for killing someone makes no sense.

Speaker 4 Kayla at Kikini said that Caitlin deserved more. Three years is not enough.
Time

Speaker 4 for lying to the Markhams for 13 years. And Allie, Jay, Stargirl with a cat, said, is he out now?

Speaker 4 I think I heard the trial was in 2021.

Speaker 8 So I think the viewers' response really mirrored the response of the community there in Fairfield. Caitlin's case had been going on so long and had traumatized the community.

Speaker 8 So when this flea deal popped up three weeks before the trial was to begin, I mean, a lot of people were stunned, surprised, and disappointed.

Speaker 4 And to answer Allie's question, John Carter is not out. He is currently in prison.
This all just happened this year.

Speaker 8 The trial was actually supposed to go ahead this summer in June and July. It was scheduled for four weeks.
The prosecution team had 80 plus witnesses subpoenaed.

Speaker 8 I mean, everyone was full speed ahead for trial.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and it was so interesting how the assistant prosecutor gets this random tap on the shoulder. Hey.
Like, what do you think about this, the idea of this plea deal?

Speaker 4 So it was interesting how it came from John Carter's side.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, the prosecutor made it clear that they were fully prepared for trial, but the case was really circumstantial.

Speaker 8 I mean, they had no forensic evidence or DNA evidence tying John Carter directly to the crime.

Speaker 8 They didn't have a cause of death, so they couldn't really tell a jury how Caitlin had died or where she died or even how her body had gotten to Indiana.

Speaker 8 If you remember, you asked him that question of how he felt about his case going to trial.

Speaker 8 And he brought up Forrest Gump, and he said that juries are like a box of chocolates that you never know what you're going to get.

Speaker 8 I think he felt like with the right jury, he could hit it out of the park. But with a jury that was maybe more skeptical of circumstantial evidence, it could have been an uphill climb.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And we talked about this earlier,

Speaker 4 but viewers were shocked that Caitlin's dad had to help search for his daughter's remains and that they weren't fully recovered. After the first search.

Speaker 4 Mickey Martini said they're still finding bones, question mark.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, that was certainly surprising.

Speaker 8 But I think when we were out there talking to those state police officers i got a little bit more of a sense of why that had happened or how it could have happened i mean her body was left on this embankment leading down to a creek and several winters had gone by it was barely covered and i think with the snow coming and thawing that her remains had really got been spread over quite a large area.

Speaker 8 So that helped me understand it a little bit.

Speaker 4 And there were lots of comments about Caitlin's dad, Dave Markham. This comment from Murder Mystery Box.

Speaker 4 I know they need to eliminate the dad as a suspect, but it must be devastating to have to go through questioning like that.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, something we don't often see in the cases we cover, that this grieving Out for Justice dad is suddenly hauled in two years into the investigation and aggressively questioned.

Speaker 8 I mean, it's certainly based on his reaction in the room, you could see that he was surprised. But I think that it came at a unique moment in the investigation where it had been two years.

Speaker 8 He was super frustrated with the original investigators and felt like, okay, he was so glad that these state police officers were now taking a hard look at the case that I think it made it a little more tolerable for him because he thought, well, if I'm being questioned this aggressively, hopefully others are as well.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And

Speaker 4 Brenda Alessi, she commented on Dave's determination, saying, dogged determination by Dave, my heart breaks for this devoted father.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things I kind of noticed following the case for so many years is that Dave is someone who said he was never comfortable getting out there talking to the media, answering questions about his daughter's disappearance, and yet he did it birthday after birthday, year after year, really because he wanted to, he felt he owed it to his daughter to get justice for her.

Speaker 8 It was quite inspiring.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And as I teased way earlier in the podcast that my favorite bonus clip ever was talking about the glass blowing class.
Danny Scotch-Irish also picked up on that.

Speaker 4 And she said, the old ladies at the glassblowing class got a lesson in murder. I bet they're still talking about this.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, the whole story he told was wild, how they asked him as he was taking John Carter out, you know, what's the arrest for?

Speaker 8 He said, murder.

Speaker 3 Oh, there was quite a gasp.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's like, wait, our glass blowing instructor?

Speaker 4 Pretty crazy. So a lot of people were just excited on social media for season 33 to start.

Speaker 4 Kathy Seale Burnett said, new season, all in caps, yes. Nancy Krushinski Andrews.
Can't wait for Dateline to do it again next Friday.

Speaker 8 Well, I know you've got some good stories in store this season.

Speaker 4 So viewers will be happy. Lots of new stories.
And I know, Justin, you'll be happy to hopefully get a little break. Thank you for working so hard on this story.

Speaker 4 And I do hope you get to relax a little bit. Maybe take a glass-blowing class.
All right, that is our talking dateline for this week. Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 4 Remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or dateline, you can reach out to us on social at dateline NBC.

Speaker 4 Also, please check out a great new series we've been working on called Dateline the Smoking Gun, which premieres Thursday, October 3rd at 8 p.m. Eastern on Oxygen.

Speaker 4 Each episode tracks the twists and turns of an intense murder investigation leading up to the moment detectives finally uncover that one critical piece of evidence that cracks the case.

Speaker 4 And of course, we'll see you on Fridays for Dateline on NBC.

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