Talking Dateline: The Shadow in the Window

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Hi, everyone. I'm Andrea Canning, and we are Talking Dateline.
Today, I'm here with Keith Morrison, the legendary Keith Morrison. Hey, Keith.
You sure? A legend in his own mind only, yeah. Right.
I knew you'd laugh. All right.
This powerful episode is called The Shadow in the Window. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed.
So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here. For this Talking Dateline, Keith has an extra clip that didn't make it into the show and will also answer some of your questions about the episode from social media.
To recap, in 2017, 35-year-old Nada Huranier was found dead on the ground outside of her Farmington Hills, Michigan home, beneath an open window. Inside the home was a stepladder and cleaning spray.
Investigators wondered, was it an accidental fall while cleaning or something more sinister? A complex investigation revealed the alarming truth that shook Nada's family and the community. Okay, let's talk Dateline.
Right out of the gate here, Keith, this story, I mean, the clues were so abundant. It was like a Hitchcock movie.
It really was, wasn't it? And then the clincher about who actually did it and how they could prove it was something I've never seen before.

Me too. It was the strangest darn thing.

There were video cameras all around the house, right? But it was black dark outside. So the cameras weren't really recording anything with any quality at all.
But there was just enough light in the courtyard where she fell that it caught this flash of a shadow going by at a particular time. And you could see it was the beginning of where she was tossed out the window.
And you could see that she was being tossed out the window by someone, which told them two things. It confirmed the medical examiner's evidence that she had to have been dead before she was thrown out the window.
And it showed that it was a person who threw her out the window, and she didn't go out by herself on her own steam. That shadow had all the impact you can imagine.
Yeah. Yeah, I truly felt like I was watching a movie.
I don't say that lightly. That was straight out of Hollywood.
Yeah, it was. It was.
A lot of the happenings in this story, it would make a good movie. Yeah.
And Aya was such a complex character, now a young woman. Aya is a phenomenal young woman.
She was. And you were so good with her.
You know, you were gentle, kind a young woman. I was a phenomenal young woman.

She was, and you were so good with her.

You know, you were gentle, kind,

but also she clearly has a wall up.

I mean, she has been greatly affected by this.

Oh, hugely so, yes.

Yeah, was sharing with you,

but yet at the same time,

at times detached while sharing

these intimate details of her life. And you can see it's like she's doing that on purpose.
She doesn't want you to see what's inside. Right.
She had gates and walls up all around her and she knew what she wanted to tell me and she didn't want to tell me any more than that. And I didn't want to be rude, but at the same time, it was, it was important to understand what her motivation was, what drove her, what her feelings were about all of this.
She is still trying to protect herself from the emotional heft of what happened. I mean, she and her mother, she and Nada, were very close in a family which was troubled.
In a family which was bisected between loyalty for the father and loyalty for the mother. And Aya, I think to this day, feels a tremendous amount of guilt because that night her mother wanted her to sleep with her, as they did on occasion.
You know, they were just, you know, because there was trouble in the house, you know, there had been trouble in the house. And Aya with her was, you know, kind of, I think, safe for both of them or made them both feel safe or better.
And she didn't that night and she regressed it to this day. But, you know, I was thinking to myself, I'm like, Aya, if it wasn't that night, it would be another night.
Oh, yeah. So, she shouldn't carry that guilt because I don't believe that would change the outcome,

you know, maybe for one day.

No. And I found it instructive that she elected to go and live in a foster family until she was a

recognized adult rather than live with her father. She, you know, retains that kind of

visceral anger against her dad to this day. We heard that visceral anger in the courthouse.
Aya was so reserved in the interview, and then you heard her yelling in the courthouse, the audio of her in the hallway. But one of the things that was most intriguing to me about this story, they didn't charge the father with taking part in this crime or aiding and abetting or being in control of the son who committed it.
And I think the prosecutor wished he could do that, but he just didn't have the sufficient evidence to be able to do so. The dad was far away when the crime occurred, but was in constant contact with the son and had been all along.
Yeah, even though the dad was never charged with anything, what was interesting though

was the whole time I'm thinking, oh, the dad did it, the husband did it, there's no question.

And then suddenly, it's the son, and I'm thinking, wow, I didn't see that one coming.

Yeah.

When we come back, Keith is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from an interview

with Nada's divorce attorney, Robert Zivian. Own a 2020 or newer car or truck that's been in for repairs under warranty? You might have a lemon.
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so you never miss an episode. One of the weirdest things I think I've ever heard, maybe on a dateline, is when the brother, Aya gets her brother to go out and check on the mom on Nada.
And he says in his police interview that he went to go get her water yeah i mean i'm thinking to myself what she's clearly fallen out of a window and that's what you do you go get water he probably didn't hadn't thought through it too thoroughly he was what 16 years old um he was being questioned by some skilled detectives and he got, you know, he kept changing his story. He was, what, 16 years old.
He was being questioned by some skilled detectives. And he got, you know, he kept changing his story.
He was befuddled. He didn't plan it in a way that he would ever get away with it.
But when he had the conversation with detectives, the one his father stopped partway through, he was incriminating himself increasingly as he talked to them because he would just tell them all this weird stuff. But then they looked at the video of him doing CPR on his mother and talked to Aya about that too.
And he was going through the counting steps of doing CPR, but he wasn't actually doing the CPR because he knew she was dead and had been for a while. I actually didn't notice the first time around with the video.
I didn't notice that he wasn't properly doing CPR. And then you pointed it out later in the show.
And I thought, oh, yeah. And then I started taking a closer look.
But at first, I totally believed it. Yeah.
Well, that was his intent. He wanted to be believable, but he didn't give a very good performance.
No, he didn't. He was a bad actor, I would say, all around.
The other thing that really made me mad was when he brings up his sister, like he's blaming her almost in the police interview, or at least pointing them in her direction for a moment. Yeah, he was wriggling, that's for sure.
This was a very complex family dynamic going on, like more so than most of our datelines, I would say. And our datelines get pretty complex.
This one had another level to it. It sure did.
The real hate that both Nata's husband and son began to show toward her was based on family dynamics.

It was based on, you know, who's controlling this household and why are you behaving this way? Because she was, you know, it was one of those stories where one of the partners in the drama is launching a new life, is making a new person of herself. You know, this episode reminded me of a show that I did

about a woman who was overweight

and she started doing Zumba and she lost a lot of weight.

And suddenly she's having a different frame of mind.

And, you know, that meant she lost interest in her husband

because he just wanted to sit on the couch

and play video games.

And now she's working out and making new friends and it leads to a breakup and he couldn't handle that. So he killed her.
And I really thought of this as being similar to that, you know, that Nada was finding her way. She was breaking free from whatever prison she felt she was in, you know, in her marriage.

She was.

You've got it exactly right. She was breaking free from that.
And it was interesting how everyone was very careful to say that her hijab coming off, you know, it wasn't a religious thing. It was a freedom thing for her, you know, that now she's working out in the gym and then she's getting a job and she has a new guy.
And it was a symbol, really, of her new life, that coming off. It was for her.
And I had some concern that people might see this as a sort of a rejection of Islam or something, the story. Not so at all.
And, you know, she was in a different milieu, a different culture, a different situation. And though she remained, up until her dying day, an absolutely devout Muslim, she adopted a more Americanized kind of life.
And her husband and son had trouble with that. And I think that's what they focused their anger on.
But the real anger was not so much that, it appeared to me, but the fact that she was breaking away from the marriage. And neither father nor son could have bear that.
You have an extra clip, Keith, that did not make the show with not a divorce attorney. Yeah, Bob Zivian.
Yeah, that goes a little more in depth into the relationship between husband and wife. Let's take a listen to that clip.
Let's do that. I think Nada was looking forward to being independent in terms of her husband and being in a less traditional setting.
I never heard Nada say a bad word about Islam or traditional Muslim garb or behavior or traditions, whatever it might be. It wasn't that.
It was pretty impressive. She was looking forward.
She was a good client, and I would say she was a good mother. I think Nada somewhere is looking down on Aya and cheering her on just for the idea that Aya is going to be a woman who is going to have to be reckoned with.
And I think Nada would have really liked that. And it's so unfortunate and tragic that Nada is not going to get to see that.
Yeah, you get that because Nada was breaking free herself. And now she has a daughter who is so independent and is going to be a lawyer.
And yeah, I mean, everything he said just makes complete sense. It's just that in this case, the daughter is the one who has to complete the process that the mother began of becoming a fully human being.
So true. Such a shame that Muhammad took that from them.
He took that relationship, that mother-daughter relationship, and he took away from Nada the opportunity to see her daughter excel, which is really sad. In the end, Muhammad got, what, 35 to 60 years? He was only 16 when the crime was committed, so I think you have to assume that he's not going to serve the full 60 years.
He was only 16 when the crime was committed. So, I think you have to assume that he's not going to serve the full 60 years.
He'll probably be released closer to the 35 and he'll

still be in midlife and able to live some kind of life after that. But it's still a huge penalty

for a young person to pay.

Huge.

For getting all wrapped up in anger at his mother.

Right.

But you wonder what he's thinking sitting in a jail cell,

knowing he's got 30, 35 years ahead of him of that kind of life.

Will he regret what he did? Will he get dug further into the anger and into, you know,

kind of a narrow way of looking at life?

I don't know. Prison, as they say, will tend to stop the growth of an individual.
They kind of come out, no matter how long it is, they come out the same age as when they went in. If they went in a teenager, they're apt to have teenage attitudes when they come out, even if they're 40 or 50 years old.

But some of them, and a few of them we have spoken to, I know you have, I have for sure, spoken to people in prison who have thought deeply about what they did, who have decided to take responsibility and do something about their lives, you know, even if they're not going to get out ever, to try to, you know, to make an accounting of themselves, to see if they can issue an apology that will make any sense to anybody. Be a real person about it.
What will Mohamed do? I don't know. Yeah.
After the break, we're going to answer viewer and listener questions about the show from social media. If your 2020 or newer car or truck bought or released from a California dealer has been in for repairs under warranty, listen up.
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Results vary. Courtesy of Roger Kiernos, Knight Law Group, LLP.
Explore the world's hidden wonders on the Atlas Obscura podcast. A village in India where everyone's name is a song.
A boiling river in the Amazon.

A spacecraft cemetery in the middle of the ocean.

Every day, the Atlas Obscura podcast will blow your mind in 15 minutes.

You can find it on the SiriusXM app, Pandora, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Okay, so Keith, our first viewer comment is a good one, a very perceptive one. It's from OMG underscore Garcia.
I'm always baffled how criminals think there isn't a camera watching nowadays. They're everywhere.
But to get caught by your own. Yeah, it is ironic, isn't it? Mind you, a 16-year-old mind who's probably very deeply troubled and upset at that very moment.

Probably the last thing he's thinking about is a camera watching, especially when it was so dark that night.

So incredibly dark.

The assumption was the camera wouldn't capture anything.

And it almost didn't.

Okay.

Our next question is from Just Jen. She had another good observation as well.
Well, I don't think she was cleaning the windows with Tilex. You know, I think that's probably a word for word.
If you put a bubble over the head of the first detective on the scene, the words inside the bubble would be, well, I don't think she was cleaning the windows with Tilex. So, very perceptive.
Yeah. Okay, Linda Addy made the comment, who cleans windows at 6 a.m.? I was wondering the same thing.
Yep. Good comment.
Also, one of the things on the minds of the detectives, gets up on a ladder at that hour of the night. Not a shred of light outside.
No. Our Dateline viewers, nothing gets past them, does it? No.
Okay, next one is from Mary Grace Donaldson Cipriano at TheRealGracyD. I can't imagine the level of disrespect you must have for a parent to call them dog in your phone.
Yeah, well, good point. I was shocked at that myself.
It was a kind of a shared disdain that father and son had for nada. And it was pretty awful to see, frankly, that a son would use that word.
I can't imagine it. Yeah, that one got to me too when I saw that.
I mean, that's so terrible. Okay, the next one, hot flash, honey.
The most dangerous time is when she tries to leave her husband. And we've heard this from so many datelines that we've covered.
Time and again. It is so true.
Yeah, it's a good remark. While we're there, just if anybody is in that situation or thinking of being in that situation, it's so important to be sure you have backup, to be sure you have help, to be sure you have a place to go and someone on whom you can rely.
When violence occurs, it very often occurs in that particular period of time. So, something to think about.
Absolutely. For other people who might be in a dangerous situation like Nada, reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE, 1-800-799-7233, or thehotline.org.
Lisa J. Miller, Lisa J.
Miller, CO. Well, we know her.
She, yes, she you had lisa on as a guest on after the verdict podcast a few months ago talking about her detective work well and she was a key a key character in the story we did in colorado yes so that yeah that's where that co comes from um so ayah has already shown she has the fortitude to do anything she sets her mind to Another well-told story that shows the strength and resilience of those who lose a loved one to violence. Good point.
Yeah. Aya was a very impressive young woman.
As I think I told you earlier, she was careful about what she was saying. Understandably so.
I mean, you're sitting there talking to a person you've just met, and you're being asked to talk about very personal things. You're going to be careful.
She didn't want to reveal all the emotions involved, but you could see they were there, and how difficult it was for her to have to navigate that passage. And yet she did so with grace and courage and she's still doing well.
Yeah. Hats off to I.
I feel like she's going to do a lot of good things in her life. Yeah, I agree.
Very impressive young woman. This last comment is from Megan Berry.
Megan, it just so happens, was the jury foreperson on this case. And so, she said that she still thinks about Nada, the victim of the crime, and she hopes that the jury brought a sense of justice for her and her loved ones like Aya with their decision.
Wow. Yeah.
Sometimes we try to talk to juries, as you know, and occasionally they decide they'd like to talk to us. But rare that somebody would write a response to a program.
I'm glad she did. I'm glad also that they were able to find their way to what I thought was a very fair and very reasonable and very good decision in this case.
Yeah, me too. Thank you, Megan fight for justice.

Thanks for listening and see you then on NBC. 2020 or newer car or truck bought or released from a california dealer has been in for repairs under warranty listen up don't let the dealership give you the runaround with lemon law help you won't be with lemon law help specializes in lemon law and has recovered millions for car owners just

like you with a reputation for big wins they fight for your rights best of all you'll pay zero out

of pocket call 877-294-1717 today for a free evaluation or visit LemonLawHelp.com.

Paid spokesperson. Every case is different.
Results vary.

Courtesy of Roger Kiernos, Knight Law Group, LLP.