Talking Dateline: Facing the Music

Speaker 1 It's time for Black Friday, Dell Technologies' biggest sale of the year.

Speaker 1 Enjoy huge savings on select PCs like the Dell 16 Plus, featuring Intel Core ultra-processors, and with built-in advanced features. It's the PC that helps you do more faster.

Speaker 1 Plus, earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, price match guarantee, and expert support.

Speaker 1 They also have huge deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC and make perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop now at Dell.com/slash deals.

Speaker 2 Dateline is sponsored by Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees.

Speaker 2 Just ask the Capital One Bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way.
What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See Capital One.com/slash bank, Capital One NA member FDIC.

Speaker 2 Hi, everybody. It's Josh Mankowicz, and we're talking Dateline today with Andrea Canning.
Hi, Andrea. Hello.

Speaker 2 So this episode is called Facing the Music, and it's about a young woman murdered and sexually assaulted in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 2 Back in 1992, it was a cold case for about a quarter century until it was finally undone. by DNA technology.

Speaker 2 Now, if you haven't listened to this show yet or you haven't seen it on television, it's the episode right below this one on the list of podcasts that you just chose from.

Speaker 2 So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock

Speaker 2 and then come back here. For this episode, Andrea has a clip that she's going to play for us, an interview that's not in the story, somebody who's a former student of Christie, the victim.

Speaker 2 And then we're also going to answer some of your questions about the broadcast from social media. So stick around for that.
So let's talk Dateline.

Speaker 3 Let's do it.

Speaker 2 Interesting story.

Speaker 2 When did this first run on Dateline?

Speaker 3 2019, in fact.

Speaker 3 I was pregnant with Tripp when I was shooting this story.

Speaker 2 Wow. Tripp's now, how old?

Speaker 3 Five years old as of last week.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 How's he doing?

Speaker 3 He is doing great.

Speaker 3 Yes, he's going to kindergarten in the fall. Thank you.

Speaker 2 That's great.

Speaker 2 I was wondering when I was watching this when this was because I couldn't quite tell. And when did you do the earlier thing where you had your

Speaker 2 genetic face mapping done?

Speaker 3 That was

Speaker 3 for a different story in Albuquerque, New Mexico, with

Speaker 3 a woman named Brittany Marcel. She was actually a teenager at the time when she was attacked.
One drop of blood was left at the crime scene at her house on a window pane. He jumped out the window.

Speaker 3 That's all they had to work with was this one drop of blood.

Speaker 3 They end up doing this parabon testing.

Speaker 2 They

Speaker 3 get the sketch of the person

Speaker 3 and it looks an awful lot like a person Brittany named while under hypnosis.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 turns out the name that she gave in hypnosis was in fact the same person.

Speaker 3 And so that was the first time that I had been introduced to this Parabon technology. I sent my DNA into Parabon anonymously.

Speaker 3 And I have to say, it was really, truly incredible when they showed it to me.

Speaker 3 I could not believe how much it looked like me.

Speaker 2 See,

Speaker 2 I did not think it looked like you. I did not think that I would look at that composite and think to myself, oh, that's Andrea.

Speaker 2 Like, if you showed me that, I would have said it's a woman with blue eyes. But I mean, it didn't immediately say to me that it was you.

Speaker 3 Josh, remember, it's 21-year-old Andrea. That's how that program works.
Right. It spits out a picture

Speaker 3 composite of the person at age 21. Here's what I will say that was really remarkable about that composite.

Speaker 3 I have a yellow ring around my pupils. That composite had a yellow ring around the pupils,

Speaker 3 which just blew me away. And remember, Josh, you're trying to narrow down suspects.
We already know male, female, obviously, from DNA testing. But when you do parabon, you can get hair color.

Speaker 3 You can get eye color. You can really eliminate a lot of suspects when you have no idea who committed a crime.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think that's the real benefit of that, you know, molecular photo fitting, as it's sometimes called, or a DNA phenotyping.

Speaker 2 I mean, it still doesn't replace finding a name, which is what they eventually did through investigative genetic genealogy.

Speaker 2 It focuses.

Speaker 2 Because the composite that they had of Mr. Rowe, I mean, it doesn't not look like him, but you don't think like, oh, yeah, that's the guy.

Speaker 3 I agree. I agree.
That one wasn't, you know, some type of dead-on match or anything, but they did have the eye color right. The hair was

Speaker 3 certainly similar.

Speaker 3 I mean, when you held them side by side, you could definitely see the resemblance, but it wasn't like, oh, that's him. You know, it wasn't that close.

Speaker 2 Look, I mean, just a few years ago, it was impossible to get DNA off a doorknob, you know, just because somebody had opened it.

Speaker 2 Now you can, you know, you you can identify suspects because they opened the door to the, to the scene of the crime.

Speaker 2 So, you know, as we go forward, I mean, I'm sure DNA technology as it, as it advances, is going to be better and better at

Speaker 2 creating what somebody looks like. Surely.

Speaker 3 And it just, we know that. We know it keeps improving, just even through Dateline, you know, from doing all these different cases over the years.
We've, we've watched with our own eyes DNA evolve.

Speaker 3 And a lot of times you and I go back in the time vault to these stories that were around long before we even started on date lines in some cases. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, you talked about in this, you know, investigative genetic genealogy used to solve the Golden State killer case. And now, you know, that's just kind of rote.

Speaker 2 Now they're just, oh, yeah. So they did investigative genealogy and they found his cousins and then they went through it and they found him.

Speaker 2 And that was stunning and impossible science fiction just a few years ago. And now it's just sort of accepted as sort of standard law enforcement practice.

Speaker 3 Such an amazing tool. It's really changed the face of law enforcement investigations.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and forensics and,

Speaker 2 you know, and the way murders are

Speaker 2 investigated. I mean, they're closing cases all the time and they're identifying people who were John and Jane Doe's for 20, 30, 40 years.
And now they know who it is and an investigation can begin.

Speaker 2 Or in some cases, they're identifying suspects who otherwise would have just been walking around.

Speaker 2 One of the things that came up in this case is something that surfaced in some other cases that we've done also that were DNA cases, which is when you look at this from the outside, you know,

Speaker 2 who's the winner here? Law enforcement or the suspect? I mean, this guy got away with murder for 25 years. You can pretty easily make the argument.
He walked away a winner.

Speaker 2 He lived his life, did whatever he wanted. I don't know if he was DJing the whole time, but he got a lot of years to live his life and be free.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I say he's the loser. He got caught in the end.
And also, what kind of life is that when you know you've killed a woman? And look, he was married four times.

Speaker 3 And I had to wonder, is that because his life is unstable? You know, is that because of what he did?

Speaker 3 And, you know, I don't know the answer to that, but it's certainly possible. I mean, hiding in plain sight,

Speaker 3 that doesn't sound like very much fun to me.

Speaker 2 It doesn't sound like fun to me either, although it probably beats

Speaker 2 being in the joint.

Speaker 3 Yeah. 100%.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yes.

Speaker 2 So, you know, this wouldn't be the first case we've covered in which the murderer turns out to have a secret life

Speaker 2 that is unknown to his family and the people in his life.

Speaker 2 I mean, the story I did just a couple of months ago, in which this guy got away with murder and then lived in this tiny small town in northern Ontario.

Speaker 3 And it was another DNA case.

Speaker 2 And no one could believe that he was the guy because he had this whole other life.

Speaker 2 People get pretty good at compartmentalizing, I guess.

Speaker 3 I'm sure I totally agree with you. That was absolutely the case with DJ Freeze, as they call him.

Speaker 3 You know, not only did he go about his life, but was really a big part of the community because he was this DJ that was there for all the life events, weddings, proms, parties, and certainly in a, in a community like Lancaster, you know, where it's not that big,

Speaker 3 he is a part of that fabric of that community, right? When you're going to these big events that people are celebrating.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah. And if you're a Playboy and you're a DJ, you're meeting a lot of dates that way.
And if you're a predator and you're a DJ, you're scoping out a lot of victims.

Speaker 2 And he may have seen her there, right? I mean, he unquestionably ran across her tracks.

Speaker 2 And I guess police think that she turned him down and that that set him on his sort of stalking of her because it sounds like they believe that he's the guy scared away from outside her house.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a lot of unanswered questions, but the proximity was definitely there. Because once they started narrowing down the DNA

Speaker 3 situation, you know, okay, what relatives live near Christy or who might be in her world? And then when they narrowed it down to him,

Speaker 3 it, you know, it turns out, oh, wow, that's his route to work is right past her house. So it just, you know, it just clicked.

Speaker 2 When we come back, we have more from Andrea's interview with Christie's former student, Marianne Fisher.

Speaker 4 The Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid has a full design, a spacious interior with 232 horsepower, and a 12.3-inch panoramic display to keep the adventure going and fit with the way you live.

Speaker 4 And with SiriusXM, every drive comes alive, bringing you closer to the music, sports, talk, and podcasts you love, right in your vehicle or on the Sirius XM app.

Speaker 4 Every Sirius XM-equipped Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid includes a three-month trial subscription to SiriusXM, so the experience begins the moment you drive.

Speaker 4 Learn more at Kia.com/slash Sportage-Hybrid, Kia, movement that inspires.

Speaker 5 If you're a smoker or dipper ready ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason.

Speaker 7 But with Zen nicotine pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

Speaker 8 Zin is America's number one nicotine pouch brand.

Speaker 10 Plus, Zin offers a robust rewards program.

Speaker 8 There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zen.

Speaker 9 Check out Zen.com/slash find to find Zin at a store near you.

Speaker 12 Warning, this product contains nicotine.

Speaker 11 Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

Speaker 4 If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Granger.

Speaker 4 Granger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers.

Speaker 4 Plus, you can rely on Granger for easy reordering so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800GRANGER, clickgranger.com, or just stop by.
Granger for the ones who get it done.

Speaker 2 So, Christie's friends, you could really tell all these years later how much that affected them then and how it still affects them now.

Speaker 2 Because they're, you know, these are all women who, you know, were probably young and carefree when this happened and going to clubs and dancing to the DJ.

Speaker 2 And then, you know, now they've, you know, gotten married, had kids,

Speaker 2 people living their lives. And, you know, Christie never gets any older.
That's what happens with victims. Like they're always that same age in your mind.
It's so true.

Speaker 2 They don't get a chance to grow up.

Speaker 3 No, it's so true. You have a picture of that person in your mind and that picture stays the same.

Speaker 3 And I always think about, I get to interview multiple women who were friends with the victim.

Speaker 3 And it happens, you know, a lot on Dateline where you can, you find a tight little group of friends and maybe they're still thick as thieves. Maybe they've, you know.

Speaker 3 they've moved around in the country or whatever, but it's just so nice that, you know, that she was loved by these people and that they still care about her and that they still care about each other and that they still talk about it.

Speaker 3 And I feel like everyone needs little groups like that. You know, like the world would be a better place if everyone had that tight-knit group of friends

Speaker 3 that just is full of love and happiness and has your back.

Speaker 2 I agree.

Speaker 3 Everyone loved Christy, including. her fellow teachers, her students.
And we interviewed one of Christie's former students who spoke about what an impact Christie had on her life.

Speaker 3 Her name was Miriam Fisher, and she's a teacher now herself. And this was something that we had on social media.

Speaker 2 Let's listen to this because I remember that she was

Speaker 2 when they found her body, she had wrapped presence with her that she was going to give to her students, which tells you a little something about what kind of teacher she was.

Speaker 2 So yeah, let's listen to that, that part of the interview now.

Speaker 13 You wanted to be in her classroom. You wanted to learn from her.
You just felt comfortable.

Speaker 2 You felt welcomed.

Speaker 13 You felt appreciated. You know, you felt encouraged.
She was a rock star to us. You know, she not only was my teacher, but she and my mom got along so well.
I mean, they could rely on each other.

Speaker 13 They became friends and she truly became more of family to me and my sister. One of the beginning days of summer, she asked us to be pen pals to her.

Speaker 13 So she made us promise that we would write letters to her at least once a week. So I have some letters from her.
My sister has some letters. My mother has some letters.

Speaker 13 I saved every note she gave me because she was just so special to me.

Speaker 13 And right after I found out that she had died, I got little popsicle sticks and I made a little frame with little decorations on it. And I still, you know, have them today.

Speaker 13 And I still look at them when I'm feeling overwhelmed. I make sure that I stand outside my room and greet every single student that comes in.

Speaker 13 I always have a smile on my face because I want them to know that I'm there for them. You know, and I want them to feel that comfort and that welcome that we felt going into her room.

Speaker 2 Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 3 I was getting teary-eyed.

Speaker 2 That does tell you about what a good teacher she was, that she still has this impact on one of her students all these years later.

Speaker 2 And she became a teacher, and she's clearly thinking about her like all the time.

Speaker 2 That's what you want in a teacher. Somebody who, you know, encourages you that you remember all those years later.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because there's a lot of teachers that maybe you don't remember for the right reasons.

Speaker 3 But then there's those special teachers that, you know, changed your life or that you always remember or that inspired you to do something.

Speaker 2 Shirley Adams. I had her for fifth grade and I had her again for eighth grade.
She was the greatest.

Speaker 3 Oh, that's that's really nice.

Speaker 2 She's not with us anymore. Yeah, she was terrific.

Speaker 2 You know, it's, it's, uh, what you were talking about reminds me of something that I always describe as the ripple effect of murder, which is it becomes this defining moment, sure, in the lives of the victim's family, but it also becomes this defining event in lots of other people's lives, people who are not related to the victim, people you're not thinking about.

Speaker 2 Like it changes the way

Speaker 2 people get parented, people who never even knew the victim, but like, you know, because that happened, no, you cannot go to that party. Yeah.
No, you, I mean, I mean, those women that you talk to,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 how many of them, when they're, when their daughters say, you know, hey, we're going out clubbing tonight, they think, oh, no, you're not. No, you're not, because I know what can happen.

Speaker 3 Well, you can't, it's something you can never forget or never just erase from your mind because you want to i mean i feel bad for the principal you know he's the one who had to see that who found her and not only bad because of what he had to see but also bad because then now he's in the crosshairs of law enforcement and you know they're questioning oh well who does that but and i even i you know i asked them that question i i don't know too many bosses that would like just you know get in their car and drive over to an employee's house because they didn't show up to work um pretty rare i would say they'd probably just let it go and just wonder where that person is maybe try to call them a couple times yeah this guy clearly i thought was you know really connected to her and probably to the other teachers too i was surprised that the cops

Speaker 2 came in so hard on him without anything pointing to him except he's the person who found the body. I mean, the hit you get off this guy is not that he's like, you know, some predator.

Speaker 2 I mean, he clearly must have been horrified when he made the 911 call. I mean, ultimately, he came off as a nice, sweet guy who was really concerned about his employees.

Speaker 2 And, you know, the kind of guy you'd want to work with. Exactly.

Speaker 3 And police. can come down hard sometimes because they're trying to solve a murder.
Public safety's at risk. They don't know him.
Like they don't know that he's sweet and caring about his teachers.

Speaker 3 They'll certainly learn as they, you know, as they go along and they talk to people and whatnot, talk to him. But it's like relationships.

Speaker 3 You know sometimes a spouse didn't kill the spouse it was like somebody completely different but the police don't know that when they're they're embarking on this investigation they have to go into this with totally open eyes that's exactly right yeah

Speaker 2 so um let's talk about dagger oh my gosh yes uh This is unquestionably one of the great boyfriend nicknames of Dayline.

Speaker 3 It sounds exactly to me like dagger should be on general hospital. Like, doesn't that sound like a soap star?

Speaker 2 Absolutely. Absolutely.
So,

Speaker 2 first of all, it raises a question. How often is a married boyfriend, a guy who's cheating on his wife with the victim who's named after a thing you can kill people with, right?

Speaker 2 And they break up and he's not happy about it. How often is that person not the killer?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that person is definitely usually suspect number one, for for sure do we know why he was called dagger like his name you know is that part of his name or is that his is his favorite implement i honestly cannot remember at this point does sound like a name that maybe parents would not give their child at birth i don't right i mean like your son who was uh born not long after you shot this story um trip what's his actual given name george he's george ii george right but you don't call him george you call him trip yes right but you never thought about calling him like the blade No, that would be a no.

Speaker 2 No, no, like scalpel. That's not.
Yeah. No.
That's not. No, dagger is what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 Has a potentially sinister connotation to it.

Speaker 2 I presume we tried to get dagger. Yeah.
And yes.

Speaker 3 And I think, I think they didn't know like a whole lot about him. He moved.

Speaker 3 And, um, but it was very odd, though, that he came into the school looking for her, saying he didn't know she'd been murdered. I mean, that was really weird.

Speaker 2 I thought at the time that's the strongest evidence against his being a suspect.

Speaker 2 Like, if you're the guy, you do not show up at school, like a couple of days later, saying, Hey, I'm trying to reach her, right? Unless you're extremely smart or extremely sharp. See what I did there?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Thinking that by doing that, you will make yourself look like, well, I didn't have any knowledge of it. And, you know, so it isn't Dagger.
Dagger has an alibi. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Despite the fact that he's married, I mean, he was keeping that relationship a secret from at least some people, maybe

Speaker 2 her. We don't know.
Maybe, maybe Christy, certainly his wife, we think.

Speaker 2 And he's named Dagger. Those are all the things.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 It was unclear if I'm remembering correctly. The friends weren't sure if she knew if he was married or not.
They think she might have, but she didn't talk about it.

Speaker 2 Okay. We're going to take a break and then we will come back and answer some of your questions about the broadcast from social media.

Speaker 8 if you're a smoker or dipper ready to make a change you really only need one good reason but with zin nicotine pouches you'll discover many good reasons zin is america's number one nicotine pouch brand plus zin offers a robust rewards program there are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction but there's only one zin check out zinn.com slash find to find zin at a store near you

Speaker 12 warning this product contains nicotine nicotine is an addictive chemical

Speaker 4 Hi, we're Emochi Health, your long-term weight loss solution. We'll connect you with a board-certified provider to discuss your unique goals.

Speaker 4 Eligible patients can access custom-formulated GLP-1 medications at an affordable fixed price, deliver to their door monthly.

Speaker 4 Take our free eligibility quiz at joinmochi.com and use code AUDIO40 at checkout for $40 off your first month of membership. That's joinmoci.com.
Results may vary.

Speaker 4 Eligible GLP-1 patients typically lose £1 to £2 per week in their first six months with Mochi combined with a healthy lifestyle.

Speaker 14 A BetterHelp ad.

Speaker 14 This November, BetterHelp is encouraging people to reach out, grab lunch with an old friend, call your parents, or even find support in therapy.

Speaker 14 BetterHelp makes it easy with its therapist match commitment and over 12 years of online therapy experience, matching members with qualified professionals.

Speaker 14 And just like that lunch with an old friend, once you do reach out, you'll wonder, why didn't I do this sooner? Start now at betterhelp.com for 10% off your your first month.

Speaker 3 Let's hear what the people have to say about this story.

Speaker 2 The people on social. Kelly Kaler says, arrest him for being called DJ Freeze.

Speaker 2 Well, I don't know. That's a

Speaker 2 the 90s were a different time, Kelly.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I wonder where that came from, Freeze without the E. Maybe he thought he was really cool.

Speaker 2 Britt Britt Burke says, watching the dateline special, Facing the Music, which happened in my hometown of Lancaster, PA, I'm so glad the murder was found, even if it took 25 years.

Speaker 2 Closure for the family is what matters. And I'm going to tell you, Britt Burke and everybody else, there isn't any such thing as closure unless you can invent a time machine.
Because,

Speaker 2 you know, I mean, I'm sure that it makes. family and friends feel better when somebody is arrested, but there is no closure.

Speaker 2 There is a life before she died, and then there's the the life afterward, and you're changed forever by this.

Speaker 3 I always say closure to a chapter, you know, in this horrible story that they've been living. You know, you, you close the chapter of they found the person, but the grieving continues forever.

Speaker 3 And by the way, Josh, it's Lancaster, not Lancaster. Lancaster, yes.

Speaker 2 That's right, because Lancaster is here in California, but Lancaster County. Yes.
Yes.

Speaker 3 I worked with a news anchor in Cincinnati from Lancaster. So she taught me how to say it.

Speaker 3 And also, I had an ex-boyfriend from many, many, many years ago who played for the Hershey Bears, the hockey team.

Speaker 3 So I would go there and it was always fun to see all the Amish people at the games because, you know, you're not used to that when you go to just regular hockey games and you'd see, you know, obviously all the buggies and everything around that Lancaster area.

Speaker 3 And there are like farms in your backyard, you know, like Christy had a farm in her backyard, which shows you kind of that sort of little bit of a city feel, even though it's not a city, but kind of meets, you know, farming.

Speaker 3 Like it's, it's like old-fashioned meets new, I guess you could say.

Speaker 2 I want to back up to something that I think viewers and listeners are going to find interesting. How long were you involved with that guy who played for the Hershey Bay?

Speaker 3 Oh, I don't know, maybe like a year and a half. Like he, he moved around teams, maybe two years.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he played for Denver.

Speaker 2 Still in touch with him?

Speaker 3 No, no, not at all. He was on the winning team for the New Jersey Devils when they won the Stanley Cup.

Speaker 2 He wasn't on the winning team in life. He lost big this time.

Speaker 2 No, he went on.

Speaker 3 He got married. He had children.
I'm sure he's, I'm sure he's very happy. And I'm happy for him.

Speaker 2 He's very happy, although he's not as happy as he could be.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 Did you ever, did you ever have a favorite DJ? I did not. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, in our hometown, we had DJ Lenny. He was the DJ at my wedding.

Speaker 3 He was so much fun. Everyone uses him.
He's not like DJ Freeze, but is like DJ Freeze in the way that he's a part of the community. So he's always at people's events

Speaker 3 and he does such a good job. And our wedding kept going and going and it was like time to shut it down.
And we kept saying to Lenny, we're like, we'll pay you more money if you don't leave.

Speaker 3 And so the wedding like went on and on much later than it should have until like four in the morning. And finally, it had to shut down.
So it was a big party. And DJ Lenny was a big part of that.
So.

Speaker 2 So that is talking Dateline for this week. Andrea, thank you.
Always a pleasure.

Speaker 3 The pleasure is all mine. Thanks, Josh.

Speaker 2 And thanks, everybody, for for listening. And remember, if you have any questions for us about Dateline or about this episode or about anything else, you can reach out to us on social at

Speaker 2 DatelineNBC. See you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.

Speaker 5 If you're a smoker or dipper ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason.

Speaker 7 But with Zen nicotine pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

Speaker 8 Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand.

Speaker 10 Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program.

Speaker 8 There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zen.

Speaker 9 Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you.

Speaker 12 Warning, this product contains nicotine.

Speaker 11 Nicotine is an addictive chemical.